Great Western Coffee Shop

Geoff Marshall (of 'All the Stations' fame) is running a 'World Cup of Train Operators' poll. GWR is up against LNER in the quarter finals!

Click here if you'd like to support the local team: https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/1360150998375927811?s=20

Thanks, this will be interesting!

IET v Azuma. The name and buffet will probably swing it to LNER.

Voting currently very close .... so "every vote counts".    I'm delighted to support GWR ...

It’s interesting how the operators that are generally thought of as being the best, have fared so badly in this.  London Overground, Chiltern etc.

SWR is doing one on their rolling stock!

Speculation
... the operators often thought of as doing best for their customers are the smaller, more local ones.
... the operators doing best on a "vote for your favourite" are the bigger ones with a far higher number of customers

... Long distance will do well in a vote because lots of people use the trains occasionally - 1 or 2 journeys a year
... Strong commuter lines will do poorly because people only get one vote, even if they make 400 journeys a year

Watch how CLOSE it is at https://toccup.davwheat.dev

If you haven't done so yet, vote via https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/1360150998375927811

But I thought both operators in the semi-final now predominantly operate the new trains that nobody likes?

Gap is widening substantially in favour of LNER - Any suggestions on how we can turn the tide?

Be state owned and run?

Have an area over twice as long as our operating / whole territory?

It's supposed to be "a bit of fun" ... I have reached quite a few people on social media but drawn the line at advert promotion.

Why should we want to turn the tide ?
GWR and their nasty, short, no catering*, and uncomfortable trains deserve to lose.

LNER with their slightly less nasty trains that have a small buffet are arguably the better operator. The seats are just as bad, but catering, train length, and reliability seem better than GWR.

*And yes I know that there might sometimes be a trolley, but this is so often in the other unit, hiding in the kitchen, closed for stocktaking, otherwise unavailable, or completely absent, that for all practical purposes one may say that GWR don't do catering.

Perhaps because it’s just a bit of fun?  Plus, of course, you should always support your local team.

I've seen how GWR FC play!

Because they're our local team and have become friends.
Because they've done a ****** site more for us than other TOCs have or would have done.
Because we want to continue to partner with the team there long into the future.
Because they listen to and consider us a darned site more that many other transport operators.
Because they have shown an interest by soliciting our votes.

Please vote for GWR at https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/1360150998375927811 - poll closes at breakfast time this morning (13th February 2021)

I thought I might try the Northern Irish way of voting. Vote early, vote often. Doesn't work.

No, I'm not even repeating that idea, which I'm sure was posted with an element of humour.  Whether 'we' win or loose, we should keep it clean.  With exploration, I suspect it might be possible to unduly influence the the votes and indeed I would know where to explore.  Not doing it!   Now there was a surge in LNER votes early yesterday evening - whether that was due to someone mucking around, appearance of the World Cup on local evening news somewhere up north, or people headed home "up North" and looking for somewhere to go because the pubs are shut ... I know not. And I suspect that it it was 'naughty' and significant, the referees will have droppings they can follow.

Was surprised Caledonian Sleeper beat Avanti West Coast after the wretched couple of years they’ve had. Had it still been Virgin Trains would the result been different? I know this is JFF.

......there's people on the tracks! They think it's all over!..............it is now!  :D

Congratulations to LNER and a big "thank you" (not that it's my thanks to give, except in reflection) to everyone who voted - especially for GWR.

8374 - LNER (50.26%)
8286 - GWR (49.74%)

Majority just 88, out of 16660 votes cast

London to Inverness is 570 miles - 15 votes per mile for LNER
London to Penzance is 285 miles - 29 votes per mile for GWR
Heads held very high, then.
Need to be carefuly of this methodology - may be embarrassing if we look back at previous rounds!

Here's a composite summary of our promotion from MRUG on social media (best Facebook and Twitter posts shown), together with the summary graph.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/wctoc_lner_gwr_2021.jpg)

Nevertheless, with all those recently acquired and expensive resources, and salaries almost as high as expectations the Manager will have some difficult questions to answer having only managed 1 victory in the campaign, and that against distinctly "non league" opposition in London Overground.

Bit too much complacency perhaps.

............do we hear the Board giving him the dreaded vote of confidence? 

Ah, but have the Chairman and Board of Directors so tightly specified a course of action during a crisis, that it forced the manager to postpone some their key warm-up fixtures, and kept some of their key players stuck in the sidings on the sidelines?...

Excessive reliance on the tactic of parking the (rail replacement) bus was always going to cost them in the end........and apparently the players couldn't even get a half time cup of team and an orange as the trolley was stuck in the other changing room.

I might have voted for GWR if firstly they had been serious about trolley provision on the new units.
Reliably provided on both portions of every train.
Two trolleys on a 9 car train.
Well stocked.
Passing each seat within 30 minutes of departure, and at 30 minute intervals thereafter.

I would still consider a 29 minute wait to be a backward step if compared to a buffet. But GWR did not even try to provide a decent trolley service.
I would still consider the limited range of trolley goods to be a backward step if compared to a buffet, but GWR did not even try. (remember the promise of great improvements like hot food, a brief trial had the expected result that this was not viable)

The other reason for not voting GWR was the absence of any promise that the excellent Pullman service would return to pre pandemic levels. A statement on this forum was very carefully worded to sound vaguely positive but without actually saying "it will return to pre pandemic levels"

The hard seats and general discomfort is called progress and affects LNER similarly.

"Harsh words there, Brian. Jumpers for goalposts, Turbos for Sprinters, Trolleys for Silver Service. Now over to Motty grahame for some stats..."

Interesting choice of stat to fit a narrative. Why not the total route mileage of all lines served, or total stations served, or annual passenger numbers? All those would show a 'vote per...' greatly in favour of LNER.

For me, there are some things GWR do well - Pullman, Welsh and west based staff, stakeholder engagement, station upkeep - but they are badly let down by poor management in other areas. Rolling stock, broader customer service, non-Pullman catering, Paddington staff, cost cutting, toadying to DfT, fares tinkering, rostering & driver/TM availability (particularly when the sun comes out!), first class service, disruption recovery.

GWR is still a TOC that's too big and too geographically diverse. That to me is why its negatives outweigh its positives. If we are to keep the franchise system then it should return to its constituent parts.

LNER are just better all round. Even if you just compare Inter-City services. That's why they got my vote.

I'm not blindly loyal to my local team. Unless it's Somerset County Cricket Club!

We could come up with all sorts of comparative stats but, yes, "lies, damn lies and statistics".  I did 'temper' the comment you quoted with a wry comment that on that measure, GWR would probably have been knocked out in the first round.

Agreed - some GWR things are well done, other things could do with improvement.


Agreed again - though working with and supporting the local team is utterly logical and has in recent years been very effective. Talking with others who work with their local teams across the British Isles, I sense that on balance we  do better than most with our particular TOC team - but that's my call in terms of forum, community rail, and rapport on local stations and services which are the more important elements to me.

The closeness of the vote - Just For Fun, remember, is a pretty good indicator of just how close and supported both companies are. The overall NUMBER of votes cast was quite significant too - biggest match so far??   The touting for votes, marketing output from in and coming in an honourable second was an excellent opportunity to remind people of the railway network, and now that GWR have been knocked out it's a promotion well done, effective, and a chance to move on and do other things rather than having further voting calls when I want to answer local transport plans.

I do NOT want Somerset County Cricket Club to be running my local train service - I think they are short of experience for that -  ;D

At the risk of wandering off the original topic, I do think there is something in this specific point.

If it were me managing the reorganisation, I would go as follows:

GWR

- Express Routes, with new rolling stock for the longest (4 hour plus) journeys with full buffets.

- The former Thames Trains/First Great Western Link local routes (minus those already taken over/soon to be taken over by TfL)

- Potential responsibility for Great Malvern-Worcester-Cheltenham-Gloucester services as a result of Transport for Greater Bristol creation (see below)

- Heart of Wessex line services.

- A new tier of regional routes operated by cascaded IETs including:

Cardiff-Taunton extended to Exeter, calling at new Wellington and Cullompton stations.

Portsmouth-Cardiff.

Southampton-Salisbury-Westbury-Swindon-Oxford merging existing Romsey/Salisbury 6 and TransWilts services, providing regular 2tph Southampton-Sailsbury-Westbury, and calling at new Wootton Bassett and Wantage Road stations.

Bristol-Swindon-Oxford calling at new Bathampton, Corsham, Wootton Bassett and Wantage Road stations.

TRANSPORT FOR GREATER BRISTOL

- Existing and upcoming local rail services on the Gloucester/Severn Beach-Westbury and Bristol Parkway-Weston corridors.

- Service and infrastructure enhancements, new line and station openings progressively moving towards the "15 minute frequency" aim.

- Rail and Bus services managed by PTE-style organisation as part of integrated transport system.

DEVON METRO

- Existing and upcoming local rail services on the Exeter-Plymouth, Barnstaple, Exmouth and Paignton corridors, with possible extensions towards Honiton and Axminster.

- Plymouth-Gunnislake local services and future extensions to Tavistock and Okehampton.

- Rail and Bus services managed by PTE-style organisation as part of integrated transport system.

ONE CORNWALL

- Existing and upcoming local rail services on the Plymouth-Penzance corridor and Cornish Branch Lines.

- Rail and Bus services managed by PTE-style organisation as part of integrated transport system.

So that is just London Swansea and beyond and London Penzance.

London Bristol, Cardiff, Worcester, Exeter and Plymouth are all less than 4 hours.  Not going to be a bid order for new trains is it.

Yes, that's a fair point, and there may be scope for some leeway there for slightly shorter journeys on the same or other corridors.

My "4 hour rule" was based on a previous forum debate where that was arrived upon as a fair time beyond which buffets become more desirable. Ive been around the forum long enough to know thats certainly not going to be everyone's view though  ;D

Indeed, I would consider a buffet desireable on journeys of over two hours rather than over four hours.
For four hour journeys a restuarant should be provided, on selected trains, not just a buffet.
That is not to say that every single two hour route should have a buffet, but it should be the norm.

For the longer distance GWR services, I would favour purpose built proper intercity trains, with buffet and restaurant, padded seats, no underfloor engines, and gangwayed throughout.

If that cant be achieved, then 9 car IETs modified to an intercity specification.
Add a proper full sized hot buffet in the middle of the standard class section. It will thus be within easy reach of any standard class customer (not needed for first as table service provided)
Be prepared to add a vehicle to 9 car sets when passenger numbers justify this. Or even better to add 5 vehicles to existing 5 car sets to make 10 cars.

Thanks for the wander ... and some excellent points.  Ironically, we roundly rejected the suggestion of splitting the franchise into "red" and "blue" areas a few years ago ...

An interesting post with which I partially agree.
Of particular note IMHO, is that a respected and well informed member suggests that IETs are not suited to "express" services, and also suggests that they should be cascaded to secondary routes.

I have always felt that IETs are not proper inter city trains, and are AT BEST an acceptable outer suburban unit.

In response to broadgage's post, my view is more that I think IET's are far more suited to short distance express services than they are to longer distance ones, and that they could be seen by passengers as a significant step change upwards in terms of quality if they were deployed on the regional services that I mentioned.

In response to grahame's post, what's changed since then is that Cornwall has received central government support for groundbreaking schemes such as the "One" and "Superbus" initiatives, and legislation now makes it easier to introduce measures such as Bus Franchising and integration with other modes.

I think that if Cornwall were to actively seek this level of control over their local rail network, then they could find themselves knocking on a largely open door, and I know of several figures with the knowledge, ability and influence to make such an initiative work in the Transport for Greater Bristol and Devon areas as well.

In overall terms though, I wanted to put forward a "horses for courses" approach. Lets have GWR control where GWR control would work best, and lets have local area control where local area control would work best.