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Journey by Journey => Bristol (WECA) Commuters => Topic started by: Red Squirrel on March 19, 2021, 23:39:57



Title: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 19, 2021, 23:39:57
Quote
Cotham Hill to close to motorists to support businesses during pandemic

(https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/cbecb9c0627249ffac3c766a436e3bc6.jpg?width=706&height=1059)

Businesses on Cotham Hill are to be temporarily given extra trading space next month to support reopening amid COVID-19 restrictions.

From April 12, hospitality venues will be permitted to reopen using outdoor seating areas and a road closure is a response to calls from traders to provide outdoor capacity on Cotham Hill.

The move follows recent engagement by Bristol City Council that found more space for pedestrians and outdoor traders was a high priority for people living and working in Cotham.

While the associated closure to through traffic is a temporary response to the pandemic initially, the council will monitor its impacts to help design a similar, long-term scheme.

Mayor Marvin Rees said: “Since last summer we have delivered a package of transport upgrades to make it easier for Bristolians to get around during the pandemic. We have been flexible in our approach of using temporary materials to create more space for pedestrian and cyclists, and I am pleased that we are now able to do the same for Cotham Hill. It has been clear from speaking to traders and our recent engagement that some form of road closure is a key priority for local people, and we will be working with the community on plans for a longer-term scheme. Our aim is to deliver more liveable neighbourhoods right across the city that are free from traffic congestion and pollution.”

Two parts of the road will be closed to through traffic - between Whiteladies Gate and Hampton Lane; and between Hampton Park and Abbotsford Road.

This will provide space for businesses and residents to gain access for loading and deliveries, while also preventing the road from being used as a through-route.

The closure will be implemented using temporary barriers that will provide space for businesses to trade outdoors on both sides of the road, with a shared space for pedestrians and cyclists in the middle. Barriers and signs will be in place to ensure reduced cycle speeds in the shared space.

Cllr Kye Dudd, Cabinet Member for Transport, said: “We are pleased we can provide this interim solution for businesses that will support them to reopen during the next stage of COVID-19 restrictions. Our next move will be to work with locals to design a scheme that takes a more holistic view at the area to avoid negative impacts on nearby roads. We encourage people to get out, enjoy the outdoor shared space and help give their local economy a boost when the restrictions allow. We also want people's views as we monitor the impacts of the temporary scheme.”

Dan Williams, owner of Coffee and Beer, and Kieran and Imogen Waite, Bravas owners, said: “We are really grateful that the Cotham Hill community will get the road closure many of us have asked for. This will allow us to reopen in April using outdoor space. Without it we would have to remain closed and, after an incredibly difficult year, this could be the difference between our businesses surviving or not. It will help to cement Cotham Hill as an independent, destination high street where people can come for a stroll to browse and support the variety of great businesses. The closure will give people more space to do this safely during the pandemic as well as create a more accessible, cleaner environment - whilst helping to address local concerns about safety and speeding traffic. We are excited to see some new and old faces soon and hope this temporary closure will be a successful trial to help inform a more permanent strategy for the road.”
Source: Bristol City Council (https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/cotham-hill-to-close-to-motorists-to-support-businesses-during-pandemic)

This is the road directly opposite Clifton Down Station.

Edit: Attribute source - RS


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 20, 2021, 13:04:36
Extremely similar report on B24/7: https://www.bristol247.com/food-and-drink/news-food-and-drink/hospitality-owners-celebrate-cotham-hill-pedestrianisation-plans/

I know the manager of one of the charity shops on Cotham Hill. He actually wrote against this when it was first considered last year, mostly out of concern that people would no longer bring in donations (which can be very heavy) if they couldn't park nearby. In fact, it looks like the section where he is will not be closed, and I think he'll be pleased with increased footfall. But we'll see.

Also, the top photo in the B24/7 reminds us that this is partly the result of "guerilla road marking" during Lockdown 1. You can see the "homemade" markings where the man with the Sainsbury's bag is walking:
(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Cotham-Hill-Bristol-photo-Martin-Booth-800x450.jpg)


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 20, 2021, 16:01:22
Extremely similar report on B24/7

I quoted the BCC press release, but didn't credit it. I have now corrected that!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ChrisB on March 20, 2021, 16:52:13
Quote

Edit: Attribute source - RS


Is RS in the acronym directory? ??? ::)


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: grahame on March 20, 2021, 17:12:42
Quote

Edit: Attribute source - RS


Is RS in the acronym directory? ??? ::)

No - concentrating at this stage on the main content acronyms.  Resources limited and that's a category we could too later.

Personal member acronyms come with an extra set of issues:
* Does the member welcome the Acronym or is it an "nickname" someone else has assigned
* How far do you go - at what point do you include someone, and may you upset people by the selections made or not?
+ In addition to a number of them overlapping main content, be it RadioSpares, BurNhaM station or WordPress.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ChrisB on March 20, 2021, 17:16:04
You have the option of adding in a board moderator to the board's index page. That would be my suggestion, just as you have added Data Managers to some board indexes. A look up could therefore ne made as to whom RS might be.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: grahame on March 20, 2021, 17:29:56
You have the option of adding in a board moderator to the board's index page. That would be my suggestion, just as you have added Data Managers to some board indexes. A look up could therefore ne made as to whom RS might be.

Actually, RS resolved just below anyway  ;D

Quote
Edit: Attribute source - RS

« Last Edit: Today at 04:02:27 pm by Red Squirrel »

If you fancy taking on the task of checking with members that they're OK with how their names are shortened, adding new ones as they come along, and coming up with guidelines as to which to include, ChrisB, we could have a look at that - always happy to have help with the knife and fork and spade work.   That needs to be done whether or not we change the appointment of board moderators to fit the acronyms.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ChrisB on March 20, 2021, 18:56:23
My suggestion would be that they’re not shortened


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 20, 2021, 22:52:18
You're right. I have on more than one occasion thought someone was referring to me when they actually meant Robin Summerhill, so I can see that this can cause confusion. I will try to remember not to abbreviate myself in future.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 20, 2021, 23:30:38
Posting here under my full username of Chris from Nailsea, may I offer a couple of observations?

Firstly, Cotham Hill has always been something of a rat-run, in terms of road traffic trying to avoid delays further down on Whiteladies Road and Queen's Road.  I therefore commend its closure to road traffic, on that basis.

Secondly, however, I have to drive my delivery van there, in order to deliver essential groceries to vulnerable members of the community who live in the adjoining streets. Such a restriction will make it even more difficult for me to do so in a timely manner.  I therefore condemn its closure, on that basis.

Be careful what you wish for.  ::)

Chris from Nailsea.  :-X


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Lee on March 21, 2021, 04:56:20
Posting here under my full username of Chris from Nailsea, may I offer a couple of observations?

Firstly, Cotham Hill has always been something of a rat-run, in terms of road traffic trying to avoid delays further down on Whiteladies Road and Queen's Road.  I therefore commend its closure to road traffic, on that basis.

Secondly, however, I have to drive my delivery van there, in order to deliver essential groceries to vulnerable members of the community who live in the adjoining streets. Such a restriction will make it even more difficult for me to do so in a timely manner.  I therefore condemn its closure, on that basis.

Be careful what you wish for.  ::)

Chris from Nailsea.  :-X

Thx 4 info, CfN!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 21, 2021, 11:00:18
...I have to drive my delivery van there...

I must admit I thought Bristol City Council (BCC) had been rather clever here, leaving an access route via Hampton Park and Hampton Lane so that anyone needing to get to, rather than through, the area can still do so.

But your mileage, as they say Chris, may vary! Do these schemes make it harder for delivery drivers? Does the reduction in rat-running traffic balance out that to any extent?


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 21, 2021, 18:16:11
It's not entirely clear to me how this closure or access will work. If Chris has to deliver groceries to adjoining streets, no problems – at least until he meets another van coming the other way in Hampton Lane – but if he has to deliver to an address on Cotham Hill between, say, Hampton Park and Abbotsford Road, what is the procedure? Will there be access from the Cotham Hill and Hampton Park/Lane junction or will it be a case of park and walk? Perhaps more of an issue for the cafes and restaurants in that section than the flats above them.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on March 21, 2021, 21:14:41
Be careful what you wish for.  ::)
The problem with Bristol City Council (not my name for them) seems to be, as far as I can tell, that unless you walk or cycle they couldn't give a **** and simply wish to make life hell for motorists: if BCC (or, as I call them, BSC) fail to heed that then that is their stupidity.

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ellendune on March 21, 2021, 22:01:23
Be careful what you wish for.  ::)
The problem with Bristol City Council (not my name for them) seems to be, as far as I can tell, that unless you walk or cycle they couldn't give a **** and simply wish to make life hell for motorists: if BCC (or, as I call them, BSC) fail to heed that then that is their stupidity.

Dave

So what could they do for the motorist?

They could make parking cheap or free and then they would have to demolish large parts of the city to build car parks.
They could relieve congestion by building new roads and then they would have to demolish large parts of the city to build those new roads. That was the idea of the 1960's and it became obvious it wouldn't work as early as the 1970's
They could just let the congestion continue to build up but then the city would come to a halt and they air quality would get even worse.
They could provide better public transport so less people want to drive into the city, but for that they need the support of their neighbouring authorities and that has not always been forthcoming and even then public transport costs money and in our highly centralised state, they can only do what central government will pay for (hence metrobus because that's the type of solution central government had decided was their favourite at the time. More reliable busses are only possible if they have some priority in road space over cars, but that means less for the motorist. 
They could try to get more people to walk or cycle, but cycling on a busy road is not safe, particularly one that is narrow and unsuitable for that traffic. Arguably the motorist has made life hell for cyclists. And walking in busy areas is not good when the air is polluted and the footways are narrow and the traffic close by, motorists have also made life hell for pedestrians.  So what do Bristol City Council (BCC) do? Create separate walking or cycle routes - where?

You think Bristol City Council (BCC) are deliberately making life hell for motorists. Perhaps motorists have already made life hell for themselves. Perhaps Bristol City Council (BCC) are trying to make life less hellish for the cyclists and pedestrians.

Here they want to do something on a narrow side street that is a popular shopping area to try and revive the shops when so many were closing even before Covid.  The street is full of traffic that really should be using the main road not a narrow side street. 

What do you want Bristol City Council (BCC) to do? 

I think Chris from Nailsea has summed it up quite well.  There is no easy answer to the traffic problem in our cities. We cannot build our way out of congestion, we have to reduce the road traffic, but the only way to discourage traffic is not going to be popular with motorists. 


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 21, 2021, 22:32:10
Be careful what you wish for.  ::)
The problem with Bristol City Council (not my name for them) seems to be, as far as I can tell, that unless you walk or cycle they couldn't give a **** and simply wish to make life hell for motorists: if BCC (or, as I call them, BSC) fail to heed that then that is their stupidity.

Dave

So to be clear, should Bristol City Council (BCC) heed the motorists who wish to rat-run through the area, contributing nothing, or should it heed the rate-paying business owners who requested this change?

Whenever I've spoken to Bristol City Council (BCC) officers, I've found them to be many things, but never stupid. They have to balance conflicting requirements, including central government mandates on air quality and active travel. If they don't comply, they'll be fined.

Edit:VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 22, 2021, 08:56:32
If you think Bristol City Council (BCC) under Marvin Rees wish to make life hell for motorists, then Paris under Hidalgo must be the very fiery inferno.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 22, 2021, 11:12:22
If you think Bristol City Council (BCC) under Marvin Rees wish to make life hell for motorists, then Paris under Hidalgo must be the very fiery inferno.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

These are interesting times. There's such a gulf between people who vaguely recognise that somebody somewhere should probably do something about air pollution and the climate emergency, and those who've been given the job of developing policies. At a recent WECA presentation, BCC's Head of Transport stated that motor traffic levels need to reduce to 20% of current levels by 2030. That's not a typo, he didn't say reduce by 20%, but to 20%. For most people this will mean making some fairly large adjustments, but anyone who understands the challenges we face ought to be prepared to do that!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on March 23, 2021, 21:26:26
If you think Bristol City Council (BCC) under Marvin Rees wish to make life hell for motorists, then Paris under Hidalgo must be the very fiery inferno.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms

These are interesting times. There's such a gulf between people who vaguely recognise that somebody somewhere should probably do something about air pollution and the climate emergency, and those who've been given the job of developing policies. At a recent WECA presentation, BCC's Head of Transport stated that motor traffic levels need to reduce to 20% of current levels by 2030. That's not a typo, he didn't say reduce by 20%, but to 20%. For most people this will mean making some fairly large adjustments, but anyone who understands the challenges we face ought to be prepared to do that!
All very well what people want to happen. The problem, of course, is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. Pollution levels will only reduce to anywhere approaching that if a viable alternative is provided but walking and cycling won't suit everyone.

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ellendune on March 23, 2021, 21:40:41
All very well what people want to happen. The problem, of course, is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink it. Pollution levels will only reduce to anywhere approaching that if a viable alternative is provided but walking and cycling won't suit everyone.

Yes walking and cycling will help many for some journeys, but for others good pollution free and carbon free public transport is required first.  Trouble is the reliability and speed of bus services can only improve if there is less traffic congestion on their routes.  Chicken and Egg.

I know people who commute very long distances is that sustainable, do the people need to move or the jobs? Or can enough people work from home?

We may also need to adjust in other ways.  There is a concept of a 15 minute city - where everything for daily life is available within a 15 minute walk, shopping health, schools and work. Not sure how realistic that is, but we can get closer than we are now. 


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 24, 2021, 23:38:36
...I have to drive my delivery van there...

I must admit I thought Bristol City Council (BCC) had been rather clever here, leaving an access route via Hampton Park and Hampton Lane so that anyone needing to get to, rather than through, the area can still do so.

But your mileage, as they say Chris, may vary! Do these schemes make it harder for delivery drivers?

Red Squirrel (if I may refer to you here by your full name): have you ever tried to drive a Mercedes Sprinter delivery van along Hampton Lane - and turn left at the end?  :-X

I think Chris from Nailsea has summed it up quite well.

Well, thank you very much!  ;D


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 25, 2021, 10:04:49
Red Squirrel (if I may refer to you here by your full name): have you ever tried to drive a Mercedes Sprinter delivery van along Hampton Lane - and turn left at the end?  :-X

It's a fair question. Actually I'm not very good at driving vans; last time I hired one (which was a Sprinter, as I remember it) I ended up having to pay £400 to get the dents knocked out. So I'm probably not the best person to ask!

In my experience, the main problem on Hampton Lane is bins; the left turn at the end could presumably be eased by removing a parking bay. With all these schemes, the devil is in the detail - which presumably will emerge shortly, one way or another.

For completeness, here is the report on the BCC consultation: https://bristol.citizenspace.com/sustainable-transport/cotham-hill-engagement-survey/user_uploads/cotham-hill-early-engagement-report.pdf


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Noggin on March 25, 2021, 11:11:17
Like it or not, for most people a vehicle is an essential part of life in Bristol, particularly if you are disabled, have children, parents who live in the countryside, work shifts or off the beaten track, have a hobby or a business where you need to ferry gear around etc

That said, there are plenty of trips, particularly commutes, for which a train/bike/walk/bus is great, and there's a lot that can be done to encourage that. I live 15 minutes walk from Temple Meads and even pre-Covid, we'd probably only use the car between us a 5 or 6 times a week, but without one, my wife couldn't easily get to her job as a teacher without it, we couldn't take kids to swimming lessons, take stuff to the tip, visit her family etc.   

Ultimately there needs to be a balance that sees car use as valid and integrates it, but in such a way that people can safely walk and cycle around the city and that it doesn't get in the way of public transport.

If you ban cars completely from the city, then you'll just end up exiling the people who want/need to own cars to the countryside or outer suburbs, where they will drive everywhere, shop, eat and play in chain stores etc. Cities will be all the poorer for it.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Lee on March 25, 2021, 11:29:39
Like it or not, for most people a vehicle is an essential part of life in Bristol, particularly if you are disabled, have children, parents who live in the countryside, work shifts or off the beaten track, have a hobby or a business where you need to ferry gear around etc

That said, there are plenty of trips, particularly commutes, for which a train/bike/walk/bus is great, and there's a lot that can be done to encourage that. I live 15 minutes walk from Temple Meads and even pre-Covid, we'd probably only use the car between us a 5 or 6 times a week, but without one, my wife couldn't easily get to her job as a teacher without it, we couldn't take kids to swimming lessons, take stuff to the tip, visit her family etc.   

Ultimately there needs to be a balance that sees car use as valid and integrates it, but in such a way that people can safely walk and cycle around the city and that it doesn't get in the way of public transport.

If you ban cars completely from the city, then you'll just end up exiling the people who want/need to own cars to the countryside or outer suburbs, where they will drive everywhere, shop, eat and play in chain stores etc. Cities will be all the poorer for it.

Couldn't agree more with the above - That is exactly what we try and encourage over here. Quote from the Saint Brieuc Urban Travel Plan:

Quote
"Our territory is attractive, constantly evolving with new housing and new activities taking hold: The need for travel (whether on foot, by bicycle, by public transport or by car) is increasing. Air quality has been affected, with recent years, a deterioration which shows the need to change mobility practices.

Many objectives are to be achieved, including:
- Guaranteeing good accessibility for everyone and the safety of everyone when traveling;
- Preserve the environment and improve the living environment;
- Foster coherence between urbanization and travel offer.

The general objective of this project is not to demonize the car, but to ensure that the use of it is neither exclusive nor an obstacle to the practice of other modes of travel, such as is too often the case today. With its Urban Travel Plan, Saint-Brieuc Armor Agglomeration affirms the desire to move from a system where the automobile is dominant to a sustainable system which is part of a complementarity between the different modes of transport."


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 25, 2021, 11:43:15
I think the last paragraph Lee quoted sums it up rather well:

Quote
The general objective of this project is not to demonize the car, but to ensure that the use of it is neither exclusive nor an obstacle to the practice of other modes of travel, such as is too often the case today. With its Urban Travel Plan, Saint-Brieuc Armor Agglomeration affirms the desire to move from a system where the automobile is dominant to a sustainable system which is part of a complementarity between the different modes of transport.

...which is exactly what schemes like this one are trying to achieve. At present, the storage and use of private cars totally dominates all other forms of transport in most parts of most cities. It makes walking unpleasant, cycling dangerous, and buses slow and unreliable. We can't change this without affecting people's habits, but ultimately people will have more choices - including the option to use a private motor car, as long as they do so without expecting every other kind of road user to get out of their way.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on March 25, 2021, 23:17:18
I think the last paragraph Lee quoted sums it up rather well: [....] It makes walking unpleasant, cycling dangerous, and buses slow and unreliable.
I don't wish to sound anti-cyclist (which I am not, except against those who don't ride in a sensible fashion) but I see examples on a near daily basis of cyclists making it dangerous for themselves (by pretend ignorance of red traffic signals, for example) and others: I was nearly sent flying into the road in Bicester on Tuesday by three cyclists belting along the pavement (which was not a shared one) on the road to the station while in the town on a work errand.

Pity there wasn't somebody around who could have fined all three.

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 25, 2021, 23:36:01
It's a fair comment. I see often see cyclists running red lights, riding without lights or wearing headphones. I also see motorists speeding, answering phones and blocking pavements, and pedestrians who are perhaps a bit too interested in keeping up with twitter to know what's going on around them. I suppose the majority - sensible cyclists, motorists and pedestrians - don't attract our attention so much.

I'm not sure any of this has much relevance to the need to rebalance public space so that cars just get most of it, instead of nearly all of it, though.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on March 26, 2021, 01:16:59
It's a fair comment. I see often see cyclists running red lights, riding without lights or wearing headphones. I also see motorists speeding, answering phones and blocking pavements, and pedestrians who are perhaps a bit too interested in keeping up with twitter to know what's going on around them. I suppose the majority - sensible cyclists, motorists and pedestrians - don't attract our attention so much.

I'm not sure any of this has much relevance to the need to rebalance public space so that cars just get most of it, instead of nearly all of it, though.
I know that motorists are not all saints when it comes to road use and those who break the rules by doing things such as answer their phones in a non-handsfree way deserve whatever punishment they may get: one of my colleagues got a half year ban earlier this year for doing it twice and lost her job too for good measure. I do see a few sensible cyclists but it seems to me that there are not enough of them.

Anyway back to the topic.....

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 26, 2021, 09:53:27
Hampton Lane is not much more than a Mercedes Sprinter van wide. What happens when Chris meets a van from Another Purveyor of Essential Groceries coming the other way? I have a vision of two vans in contrasting liveries, bumper to bumper, wheels smoking, each trying to force the other back!  :o ;) It could be the most exciting thing to happen in that little lane for years!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2021, 01:34:00
Actually, it's not like that at all.  No, really.  ;)

We're all professional grocery delivery van drivers, so in my experience, we do our best to help each other, in any such meeting.  I've pulled over (where possible), given the other driver an invitation to pull forward / squeeze past, or even reversed to the beginning of that road, if necessary.

Contrasting liveries really doesn't enter into it: we all want to deliver those necessaries to those needies.  ;)

Chris from Waitrose Nailsea.  :-X


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 27, 2021, 17:31:12
Advance notice: Cotham Hill street party is planned for Sunday September 12th this year, Covid permitting.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 29, 2021, 00:43:24
Are you trying to wind me up ?!?  ;D



Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 08, 2021, 23:20:03
More details:

(https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/cotham_hill_opening.png)


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on April 09, 2021, 23:21:00
(https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/cotham_hill_opening.png)
For "Temporary", where BCC are concerned, read: "this will still be here in 50 years time."  ::) ;D

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 10, 2021, 10:30:48
That certainly hasn't been the case with other "infrastructure" of this type they've put in. And as for the road layout in the Centre, they change it on seven-year cycle!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 10, 2021, 10:32:28
What strikes me most about the plans is how little of the section between Hampton Road and Abbotsford Road will be enabled for shoppers.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on April 10, 2021, 13:33:23
What strikes me most about the plans is how little of the section between Hampton Road and Abbotsford Road will be enabled for shoppers.
That doesn't surprise me either. Impression I get is that BCC don't care unless it suits their way of thinking which is that, regardless of how far you are coming, cars are not to be used.

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 10, 2021, 14:07:49
What strikes me most about the plans is how little of the section between Hampton Road and Abbotsford Road will be enabled for shoppers.
That doesn't surprise me either. Impression I get is that BCC don't care unless it suits their way of thinking which is that, regardless of how far you are coming, cars are not to be used.

Dave

It's eccentric to suggest that Bristol City Council (BCC) are out of step in concluding that the role of the private car has to be greatly reduced. It is happening in cities all around the world; in fact some might argue that Bristol is dragging its feet.

Here's WECA's policy, as stated in their Climate Action Plan (https://westofengland-ca.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s2194/11c2%20-%20CE%20Action%20Plan.pdf):

Quote
Reduce the number of car trips
Actions to improve the uptake of active travel and public transport and disincentivise car trips including better journey planning and approaches to congestion.

Meanwhile in Bath, the whole city centre is set to be opened up to non-motorists, which will even limit car access for residents and disabled people... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ida7HN0kX2g



Edit: VickiS- Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 10, 2021, 14:32:11
What strikes me most about the plans is how little of the section between Hampton Road and Abbotsford Road will be enabled for shoppers.
That doesn't surprise me either. Impression I get is that BCC don't care unless it suits their way of thinking which is that, regardless of how far you are coming, cars are not to be used.

Dave
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. How does BCC's mindset, that cars are not to be used, explain their decision to only close a small part of Cotham Hill to cars?


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Lee on April 10, 2021, 15:57:57
What strikes me most about the plans is how little of the section between Hampton Road and Abbotsford Road will be enabled for shoppers.
That doesn't surprise me either. Impression I get is that BCC don't care unless it suits their way of thinking which is that, regardless of how far you are coming, cars are not to be used.

Dave

It's eccentric to suggest that BCC are out of step in concluding that the role of the private car has to be greatly reduced. It is happening in cities all around the world; in fact some might argue that Bristol is dragging its feet.

Here's WECA's policy, as stated in their Climate Action Plan (https://westofengland-ca.moderngov.co.uk/documents/s2194/11c2%20-%20CE%20Action%20Plan.pdf):

Quote
Reduce the number of car trips
Actions to improve the uptake of active travel and public transport and disincentivise car trips including better journey planning and approaches to congestion.

Meanwhile in Bath, the whole city centre is set to be opened up to non-motorists, which will even limit car access for residents and disabled people... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ida7HN0kX2g

Meanwhile, in a land where Active Travel is only to be spoken of in inverted commas, some reassuring news for those who prefer "The Good Ole Days" - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/long-awaited-sallins-bypass-to-open-friday-morning-1.4532468


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 11, 2021, 18:24:04
Well, they've done it! Surprisingly busy given that most of the businesses have not yet reopened...

(https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/cotham_hill_no-cars.jpg)


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 11, 2021, 21:26:44
Busy tomorrow, feel a visit coming on Tuesday.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 12, 2021, 13:28:37
Schedules rejuggled, was there today. It is just as Red Squirrel's photo but busier. Traces of "farcility" in the positioning of the cycle symbols?


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 12, 2021, 14:11:15
Schedules rejuggled, was there today. It is just as Red Squirrel's photo but busier. Traces of "farcility" in the positioning of the cycle symbols?

Yes, it is a bit confusing - the cycle lanes go from being on either side of the street to going up the middle in the barricaded sections. I imagine it will all become a bit clearer when the bars and restaurants sort out their outdoor seating areas. Bit nippy for that kind of thing at the moment!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 12, 2021, 19:31:23
At least one outdoor seating area was going up today. The "farcility" element of the cycle symbols was that they're painted on either side of the street, not in the middle, both before and after the barricades. Whether that's by intention or the painters made a mistake, I don't know. Presumably it would be on the diagram, which I think was posted somewhere earlier.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on April 12, 2021, 23:43:03
Busy tomorrow, feel a visit coming on Tuesday.
Went to CH on Monday bank holiday only to find that a shop which used to sell a lager I liked from continental Europe was no longer selling it. Therefore I don't know when I will be down there next as that was the only shop I ever went to. Now seeking an alternative source.

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 13, 2021, 10:48:26
Coffee & Beer? I'm not sure what his range is beer-wise.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on April 22, 2021, 22:30:53
Not CH related (sorry) but, meanwhile, in the Easton part of Bristol.....
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-city-council-drops-plan-5322062

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 23, 2021, 10:53:03
Yes, an interesting contrast. The main difference seems to be that on Cotham Hill the traders requested the changes, whereas on St Marks Road shopkeepers felt the changes were being imposed on them.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: DaveHarries on May 06, 2021, 23:05:49
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. How does BCC's mindset, that cars are not to be used, explain their decision to only close a small part of Cotham Hill to cars?
I strongly suspect that BCC don't want people doing anything convenient when it comes to getting around unless you do it their way. As for the "active travel" side of things I used to cycle into work until the employer gave me a warning for being tired when I got in so 4 wheels it is: the bike got sold. I sometimes get the train in (see below) but only if I have to be in for 8:30am.

Yes, an interesting contrast. The main difference seems to be that on Cotham Hill the traders requested the changes, whereas on St Marks Road shopkeepers felt the changes were being imposed on them.
While on train 2K07 (0747 Severn Beach (0805 Sea Mills) to Bristol Temple Meads) on Wednesday 05th May I was talking to a lady from Redland. She said to me that the traders had not been pushing for the closure of Cotham Hill and that it was done by Bristol City Council "with almost no notice and in an undemocratic fashion" (her words, not mine).

Dave


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ellendune on May 07, 2021, 08:47:46
Yes, an interesting contrast. The main difference seems to be that on Cotham Hill the traders requested the changes, whereas on St Marks Road shopkeepers felt the changes were being imposed on them.
While on train 2K07 (0747 Severn Beach (0805 Sea Mills) to Bristol Temple Meads) on Wednesday 05th May I was talking to a lady from Redland. She said to me that the traders had not been pushing for the closure of Cotham Hill and that it was done by Bristol City Council "with almost no notice and in an undemocratic fashion" (her words, not mine).

Dave

There has been a lot of disinformation from campaigners on this subject with councils being swayed by a few vociferous motorists many of whom did not even live anywhere near the local authority in question.  Certainly the photos suggest a numbers of Cotham Hill's traders are benefitting from the additional outdoor space it offers. I suspect that some traders had asked and others had not and that the lady you heard was listening to those she wanted to hear.  I doubt if other traders are loosing passing trade in such a narrow street as a result of the closure. 

I think motorists just have to grow up and learn that we (yes I am one as well) have had a good time for the last 70 years or so and the world does not revolve solely around motor transport. 


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 07, 2021, 10:47:49
As I mentioned, I know the manager of a shop on Cotham Hill. He personally was against the closure to motor traffic. The traders and residents had a few meetings (I don't know how many) to discuss the proposal and it seems a majority of the traders and almost all the residents were in favour. The idea grew out of BCC asking for proposals back in lockdown one. I saw the bloke I know yesterday and he said in fact the scheme hasn't made any difference to the shop, positive or negative.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on May 09, 2021, 17:30:52
Bishopston Voice has published an article about Cotham Hill in their latest edition. For those who may find the image hard to read, the upshot is:

* The changes are welcomed by traders, some of whom think they may have gone out of business without them;
* The area is quieter and more pleasant;
* They'd like an improved, permanent scheme.

(https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/cotham_hill_bishopston_voice.jpg)




Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 09, 2021, 20:20:58
In general, a rare pandemic positive has been that it's given legitimacy to the redistribution of some road space from parked cars to people eating and drinking and having fun (and spending money).


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 27, 2021, 09:28:57
There is a petition to make these changes permanent. http://chng.it/nNRQLJhWFF


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 14, 2021, 12:16:11
Traders say changes have made Cotham Hill "continental", and city council will approach the area's future layout "holistically".
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/what-life-like-bristols-cotham-5644105

(Have you noticed that when people describe a place in Britain as feeling "continental" they almost always forget about those parts of the Continent such as Norway or Finland?)


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: stuving on July 14, 2021, 12:36:51
(Have you noticed that when people describe a place in Britain as feeling "continental" they almost always forget about those parts of the Continent such as Norway or Finland?)

... or, come to that, large parts of Marseille, Ercolano, St Denis, ...


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: johnneyw on September 01, 2021, 01:24:11
Took my first stroll along Cotham Hill since the changes.  Looked to be ticking over nicely with a steady footfall rather than being too crowded.  My observation is that if this is going to be permanent then it could be made to look even better with a bit of a redesign/makeover as it has a slightly temporary even makeshift air right now.  Took the snap below looking towards Whiteladies Road.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 01, 2021, 10:57:54
The closure is officially 'temporary'. According to BCC:

Quote
The feedback from [the Cotham Hill Engagement] survey along with the engagement with local businesses, community groups and local stakeholders has been used to help produce a road layout design for two temporary road closures on Cotham Hill. This will be implemented on Sunday 11 April 2021 to allow several hospitality businesses to trade outside with COVID-19 restrictions changing to permit outdoor hospitality service the following day. It will also improve journeys for pedestrians and cyclists. Whilst this is an urgent measure to support business we are working on a more permanent scheme which will be subject to further engagement with the community. This will take a look at a more holistic approach at the area and could incorporate changes to the wider area.

...which doesn't say how long the temporary closure will last, or when we can expect something less makeshift.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 01, 2021, 12:34:37
It's already slightly less makeshift in that the red and white plastic barriers originally used have been replaced with more attractive wooden planters. But the signs still have a temporary air. I would hope that if the scheme becomes permanent, the entire width of the street would be paved. At the moment there are makeshift ramps – little slopes of tarmac on the kerb – where restaurant seating has been extended over the whole pavement. This is a bit unsatisfactory IMO.

I'll also take this opportunity to remind people of the Cotham Hill street party on Sunday 12th September: bands, food, dancing, fun!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: johnneyw on September 01, 2021, 23:48:22
It's already slightly less makeshift in that the red and white plastic barriers originally used have been replaced with more attractive wooden planters. But the signs still have a temporary air. I would hope that if the scheme becomes permanent, the entire width of the street would be paved. At the moment there are makeshift ramps – little slopes of tarmac on the kerb – where restaurant seating has been extended over the whole pavement. This is a bit unsatisfactory IMO.

I'll also take this opportunity to remind people of the Cotham Hill street party on Sunday 12th September: bands, food, dancing, fun!

Agreed, I would welcome the experiment to be deemed successful (as I suspect it might) and a degree of nicely designed permanence introduced.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 26, 2021, 13:19:34
The permanent scheme is now open for consultation:

https://bristol.citizenspace.com/sustainable-transport/cotham-hill-permanent-scheme/


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 26, 2021, 18:40:43
There appears to be an error in either the map or the text of Option B. The text does not mention a one-way section on Abbotsford Road but the map shows one. I think they've either accidentally copied this over on the map from Option A or failed to add it to the text.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 27, 2021, 11:51:26
The consultation has been botched. The text descriptions of the options do not match the maps, which are hard to read.

I and others have pointed this out to the Transport Engagement team, but thus far they don't seem to think there is a problem. It would help if you were happy to email them at

Transport.Engagement@bristol.gov.uk

and tell them that you too find it confusing!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 27, 2021, 13:48:33
Will do! I also noted a comment in Bristol 24/7 (I think, or was it Bristol Live) to the effect of "It was recently announced that this scheme would become permanent so a) why another consultation b) why does that consultation include Option C would remove the pedestrianisation?


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on February 10, 2022, 14:14:44
The consultation for this scheme is now closed. You can see the results here: https://bristol.citizenspace.com/sustainable-transport/cotham-hill-permanent-scheme/

Three options were offered. Two involved retaining and enhancing the scheme, differing only in the details of whether West Park was included or not; the third option would have re-opened Cotham Hill to one-way motor traffic.

90% of respondents supported the options which retained the current scheme; 5% supported the one-way street option and 5% didn't know.

Further statutory consultation will now take place towards a TRO later in the year.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 02, 2022, 23:38:39
...I have to drive my delivery van there...
I must admit I thought Bristol City Council (BCC) had been rather clever here, leaving an access route via Hampton Park and Hampton Lane so that anyone needing to get to, rather than through, the area can still do so.
But your mileage, as they say Chris, may vary! Do these schemes make it harder for delivery drivers? Does the reduction in rat-running traffic balance out that to any extent?

I have to say that the closure of the lower end of Cotham Hill to road traffic did cause me some inconvenience on Saturday evening.  ::)

Following my SatNav's audible suggestion in the background, I turned my van right from Whiteladies Road into Cotham Hill, moments before remembering this topic.  >:(

I then had to turn my Mercedes Sprinter van around, in the remaining road area at that junction.  The number of pedestrians who continued to walk across the tarmac road surface behind my van was incredible.  I had everything on - reversing lights, brake lights and audible squarker!  Fortunately, I could see them all in the reverse-facing CCTV, so I continued to reverse, at less than walking pace.  :o

All I wanted to do was get to an address in Hampton Road.  I eventually managed to drive up Aberdeen Road and approach it from there.  ;)





Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ellendune on October 03, 2022, 08:20:54
Following my SatNav's audible suggestion in the background, I turned my van right from Whiteladies Road into Cotham Hill, moments before remembering this topic.  >:(

There do seem to be many problems with SatNavs some suggested mitigations:

1) Require suppliers to provide free updates (preferably uploaded automatically as computer software updates are)
2) Suppliers, through some sort of trade association to prov ide a single source where highway authorities and others can report changes and problems
3) Require suppliers to include restrictions on vehicle size, weight etc.  And require users to enter this data for their vehicle into the satnav at the start of the journey


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: GBM on October 03, 2022, 08:52:31
Currently have a Mazda system, and that's only updated twice a year.
Expensive as well to update.

I've seen quite a few PCV drivers using the small car satnavs to help them.
Guess it would be too expensive for companies to provide the appropriate satnav system for the correct vehicle, and updates as well.

I remember TomTom did a 'large vehicle' satnav where you used to input vehicle type and size, etc.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: ellendune on October 03, 2022, 09:58:22
That's the problem really, the suppliers pricing policies drive people to use inappropriate and out of date satnavs.


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 03, 2022, 10:24:17
I had everything on - reversing lights, brake lights and audible squarker! 
I like this word and shall start using it at every opportunity!


Title: Re: Cotham Hill opening to non-motorists
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 03, 2022, 10:25:41
I was astonished to discover how much it would cost to get our car's inbuilt satnav updated. It was a lot cheaper to get a sturdy mount for a phone and use Google Maps instead.

One particular bugbear is the 'speed limit' feature, when the satnav shows a speed limit sign. The inbuilt satnav often indicates '60' when we are in a '40' zone, for example. Google Maps is usually quite quick to recognise these changes. Google Maps can also tell you when it would be quicker to take public transport or walk!



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