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Title: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on April 16, 2021, 08:45:59 From the Association of British Commuters (Brighton line passenger group)
Quote Flexible season tickets finally revealed and as we predicted, it's a HUGE disappointment: They're just carnet tickets, offering a 15% discount on peak fares. The cost of commuting 3 days a week will be MORE expensive than a full-month season ticket. Link to Paywalled Daily Telegraph article (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/04/15/part-time-rail-commuting-regime-revealed/) and comment from ABC Quote Here's the London to Brighton example explained in the Telegraph: "The cost of travelling three days a week on carnet tickets would actually be more expensive than buying a standard monthly season ticket on typical routes. For example, based on a £45.60 standard fare between London and Brighton, each carnet will cost £193.80. Buying three carnets to travel three days a week over the month would cost £581.40 - considerably more than a monthly season ticket that costs £414.40." Looking at the same calculation (rumour mill, so assumption that base data is valid) ... Melksham to London (via Swindon) Standard return fare - £186.80 Three days a week x 4 weeks = £2241.60 15% reduction on a carnet reduces that to £1905.36 Monthly season ticket - £1015.70 So three days a week still much, much more expensive than a five day season ticket. Not a suitable product in this scenario! Were I working in London, I might choose to travel up on the 10:02 and back on the evening train - at £64.70 super off peak return per day - £776.40 spend in the 4 week month. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: ellendune on April 16, 2021, 09:06:27 The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare?
Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: didcotdean on April 16, 2021, 15:34:28 A clearer way of looking at this for me in pricing terms at least is 20 journeys for the price of 17.
This is marginally better than currently offered by the likes of Great Northern, Thameslink, and Chiltern for a Carnet which is 20 journeys for the price of 18, but marginally worse than Gatwick Express which is 20 journeys for the price of 16. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: TaplowGreen on April 16, 2021, 17:53:26 The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare? Buying virtually any product or service "in bulk" or in advance attracts a discount. In return it provides certainty for the vendor. In this context however, no reasonable person would, however, consider it "cheap", especially where London travel is factored in. The fact that peak tickets for individual journeys are often ludicrously expensive is another issue, but being able to buy a season ticket merely mitigates this, it certainly doesn't make it "cheap". You are correct however that "ordinary" rail users shouldn't have to pay so much - it may well be that given a vastly reduced load of commuters, other tickets may be made cheaper in an attempt to make up lost demand? Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: ellendune on April 16, 2021, 19:17:15 The problem these daily commuters seem not to realise is that the politicians have protected them from the price rises that in many cases other rail users have had to suffer for many years so by comparison their season ticket costs are ridiculously cheap. I see it the other way round actually that we ordinary rail users in the peak should be paying less, not season ticket holders more. If you could go back to the 1950's or 60's what then was the ratio of the season ticket to the normal fare? Buying virtually any product or service "in bulk" or in advance attracts a discount. In return it provides certainty for the vendor. In this context however, no reasonable person would, however, consider it "cheap", especially where London travel is factored in. The fact that peak tickets for individual journeys are often ludicrously expensive is another issue, but being able to buy a season ticket merely mitigates this, it certainly doesn't make it "cheap". You are correct however that "ordinary" rail users shouldn't have to pay so much - it may well be that given a vastly reduced load of commuters, other tickets may be made cheaper in an attempt to make up lost demand? When I last checked the Swindon Weekly season was about the same as 2 anytime return tickets. That's a huge discount for quantity! IIRC the ratio is less marked inside the former NSE area. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: eXPassenger on April 16, 2021, 22:17:24 Prior to 2011 when I split my time between Bristol and London I was amazed to find that a monthly 1st class season was less than 2 1st class anytime returns a week for 4 weeks, and was even better value in 5 week months.
Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: ChrisB on April 18, 2021, 10:55:28 Firstly, the i paper has carried this story also so definitely in the public demand & therefore this thread could be made public on Fare's Fair board.
There is an error in those ABC calculations. The carnet offered is 5 return journeys over a month validity. So how many months are 5 weeks long? (3 days a week meaning buying 3 carnets/month as per their example) That's the equivalent of 5 weeks travel, not a month. Only 4 would be needed for February & any other month with 5 weekends in it. Used consecutively, each carnet would last 1.66667 weeks. Then there's at least 4 weeks holiday. Plus bank holidays (of which there are 8 more) - one reason to choose to travel to work on Mondays & Fridays? So let's assume you can make use of at least 5 of these (i.e. one carnet's-worth) So, to get maximum flexibility, one buys your carnets consecutively, rather than what you need all at once to get through a month - so each carnet is valid for the month after purchase. 52 weeks less 4 weeks holiday and a further carnet knocked off for bank holidays non-travel. 48 weeks (144 days travel @ 3 days/week) divided by 5 days/carnet = 28.8 (so 29 to full carnets)/year - less one carnet for bank holidays not travelled = 28 carnets. £193.80 quoted per carnet x 28 = £5,426.40/year divided by 12 = £452.20/month. Still more than the monthly ticket at £414.40 - but not *that* much - and certainly not what ABC calculate! Possibly about right seeing as you get discounts based on bulk purchasing in advance - so generally around 22 return journeys purchased in advance for a monthly as opposed to just 5 returns for a carnet. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on April 18, 2021, 11:53:28 Firstly, the i paper has carried this story also so definitely in the public demand & therefore this thread could be made public on Fare's Fair board. OK - I have found the same story, public readable and not paywalled, in various other places now - for example in The Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/commuters-french-england-government-dft-b930088.html). Quote Flexible rail season tickets which are 15% cheaper than peak fares are being planned by the Government and train operators, it has been reported. Passengers in England will be able to purchase French-style carnet tickets allowing them to make five return journeys in a month under a new system to be rolled out in June, according to the Daily Telegraph. Commuters who want to use the scheme but travel more than once per week would be required to purchase additional carnets, which could end up being more expensive than existing monthly passes. "It would provide a better deal for those commuting two days a week, but it’s not suited to three-day-a-week commuters" Under the plan, someone travelling between Brighton and London Victoria buying three carnets for three return journeys per week over a month would pay £581.40, whereas a monthly ticket that can be used every day is £414.40. Article continues. I will switch to "Fares' Fair" Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on April 19, 2021, 16:18:38 Press release 19th April 2021 (from Railfuture)
Quote New rail fares to penalise many long distance commuters? Rail campaigners are disappointed by plans for a new ticket for part time commuters which would give an across-the-board 15% discount for regular travellers. “A 15% discount sounds good, but it means that many longer distance travellers who only commute a few days a week won’t save any money at all” said Railfuture director Neil Middleton, who is leading the campaign for better fares for part time commuters. “Traditional season tickets give larger discounts for longer distance commuting and it could still work out cheaper to get a five-days-a-week season ticket and use it only for three, than to buy these new tickets.” "If the government wants people to be in the workplace more often, it needs to price rail travel to encourage this. Instead, these inadequate proposals will make it much more difficult for the government to achieve its targets for carbon reduction when commuters switch to car use, as rail is a much greener way to travel.” “It seems very contrary that on the one hand, Rishi Sunak talks about benefits an organisation gets from people actually spending physical time together, and on the other, the Treasury puts cost as a centrepiece of their objections. This seems to do nothing for growth and workplace efficiency, nor, it seems, recognise that by providing fair fares, part time commuters are encouraged to travel to their workplace more often.” “What we’re calling for is a system of carnet tickets to better bridge the gap between the cost of the traditional day ticket and the season ticket.” Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on May 17, 2021, 05:29:50 From The I (https://inews.co.uk/news/flexible-train-tickets-wont-offer-value-on-long-distance-commutes-1003978?ITO=newsnow)
Quote Plans for flexible rail season tickets designed to lure back people to using trains will not offer value for long-distance commuters, it is claimed. Under plans set to be announced by transport secretary Grant Shapps this week, commuters will be offered a carnet of tickets offering them eight return journeys per month and the chance to buy more after June 21, according to the Sunday Times. The new flexi-season ticket system, being brought in to adapt the railways to a new era of hybrid working brought about by the pandemic, will give commuters the extra option of paying for an unlimited travel season ticket or having to buy a separate ticket for every journey. Travel costs for long-distance journeys are unlikely to fall because season-tickets currently allow travellers to pay for less than two days a week at full fare rates. But the flexi-tickets should provide value for those making short to medium commutes two or three days a week, including the Stockport to Manchester route, in which a daily full fare is priced £6.70 and a weekly one costs £24.20. [Continues] Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: Electric train on May 17, 2021, 06:47:48 Carnet ticketing may be an option, from my understanding it is the least favourite certainly in paper from. Carnet may be an option initially until the 'flexible' ticketing based on contactless bank card systems are introduced.
Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on May 19, 2021, 23:47:48 Example from Birmingham Mail (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/post-pandemic-commuters-could-save-20635251)
Quote Post-pandemic commuters could save £120 on rail fares to city with new flexi tickets Carnet-style deal aimed at workers splitting their time between home and the office The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets. The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets, or if you compare 3 days a week with 7 days a week rather than 5. Anytime Single £6.70 Anytime Day Return £8.20 Monthly Season £124.50 Say 20 working days on an old 5 day week in a month (allow a couple of days off) Return tickets each day £164.00 Or done with 2 singles each day £268.00 12 days (3 per week / odd day off) Return tickets each day £98.40 Or done with 2 singles each day £160.80 I may be blind - but the only way I can see a £120 saving is if you compare to buying single tickets individually for each journey. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on May 20, 2021, 06:39:07 Example from Birmingham Mail (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/post-pandemic-commuters-could-save-20635251) Quote Post-pandemic commuters could save £120 on rail fares to city with new flexi tickets Carnet-style deal aimed at workers splitting their time between home and the office The Department for Transport highlighted a £120 saving on journeys between Bromsgrove and Birmingham for commuters travelling three times a week, compared with buying daily tickets. [snip] I may be blind - but the only way I can see a £120 saving is if you compare to buying single tickets individually for each journey. Silly me - they may be talking of an annual saving rather than monthly that I worked on above. Reducing an annual season ticket of £1296.00 to a cost of £1176.00 for travel on carnets for someone who reduces their communing to the office to 3 days per week is entirely plausible. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: Phil on May 20, 2021, 07:31:56 Quote Many reforms will be brought before the body is launched. Flexible season tickets will be introduced, offering savings on certain routes for people who travel to work two or three times a week. These will go on sale on June 21 for use seven days later. Yesterday's report on ITV set alarm bells ringing for me. I'm one of those who commutes 2 or 3 days a week, admittedly only 15 minutes each way, and I was quite looking forward to the introduction of flexible "carnets" or whatever - probably more for the convenience of not having to remember to log in and buy the following weeks' tickets every Sunday than the cost saving, which would be minimal on such a short journey. However the words "on certain routes" (the first time I've seen that) fills me with a sense of dreadful foreboding now... edited to include link to source https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-19/train-travel-to-be-overhauled-by-new-body-great-british-railways (https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-19/train-travel-to-be-overhauled-by-new-body-great-british-railways) Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on May 20, 2021, 07:48:56 Silly me - they may be talking of an annual saving rather than monthly that I worked on above. Reducing an annual season ticket of £1296.00 to a cost of £1176.00 for travel on carnets for someone who reduces their communing to the office to 3 days per week is entirely plausible. Confirmed ... from Rail Business Daily[/quote] (https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/williams-shapps-plan-for-rail-to-reform-britains-railways-and-launch-new-era-for-passengers/) Quote In the short and medium term, the government will work closely with the sector on measures to encourage passengers back to rail. To reflect changes in the traditional commute and working life, the Government has today announced that a new national flexi season ticket will be on sale this summer, with potential savings of hundreds of pounds a year for 2 and 3 day-a-week commuters. Tickets will be on sale on 21 June, ready for use on 28 June. Good news ... commuters pay around 10% less for their travel to work. Bad news? ... cost per journey rockets? - are you buying around half the product and still paying 90% of what you paid before? Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: eightf48544 on May 20, 2021, 10:37:58 One thing tht's I can't see mentioned is whethrer the tickets are transferrable. I seem to remember in Paris you buy a set of tickets (carnet) and share it with who ever your're travelling with.
We seem to be hung up a issuing tickets for use by individuals. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: Tim K on May 20, 2021, 11:21:22 It seems like a reasonable compromise to me, cheaper than buying a season ticket for every day and cheaper than buying individual tickets, so although the per journey cost is higher, it still means I would spend less money commuting.
Key for me is how these will work in practice (I haven't read anything more than the FT summary); do I have to commute on the same days each week? Can I commute 5 days one week and none the next? Can I change the flexible ticket to a standard season ticket if I need to commute 5 days a week? Before the pandemic I commuted 3-5 days a week depending on what meetings I had and what days my wife was working at home. My employer is going to try flexi working once we go back to the office (going in at the same time as the rest of the team) but the details still need to be worked out. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: jamestheredengine on May 20, 2021, 11:27:36 They'd do better either to address certain Anytime (Day) Returns being disproportionately priced first, or to price the 8 and 12 days in 28 flexi-seasons as 8/5 and 12/5 of a weekly respectively.
Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: Ralph Ayres on May 20, 2021, 12:05:01 In some senses they can't win. In London the Day cap is already 1/5 the weekly cap, along the lines of jamestheredengine's suggestion to make things better value for those who travel only one or two days a week. That then leads to complaints from those who still need to travel every day that they don't get any more discount than those who travel less frequently.
Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on May 27, 2021, 07:41:15 Which? (https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/05/flexible-train-tickets-how-much-could-you-save-when-you-return-to-the-office/) takes a look at "Flexible train tickets: how much could you save when you return to the office?"
Quote The Covid-19 pandemic has transformed working patterns, and the options commuters have for buying train tickets are being adapted to keep up. Office buildings have remained empty throughout the pandemic with millions of people working from home. As lockdown eases, many companies are adopting new flexible working policies, with a mix of office and home-based working. All of this means the five-day commute could become a thing of the past. Currently, weekly, monthly and annual season tickets provide discounts to rail passengers who commute every day. But what if you will only commute for two or three days when you return to the office? From 21 June, you’ll be able to buy new flexible season tickets that address this very problem – just in time for the possible lifting of the government’s ‘work from home’ advice. Here, Which? takes a look at how flexible train tickets will work, and how much you could save. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: Sixty3Closure on June 08, 2021, 19:04:25 Just got an email from GWR about the new flexi tickets.
https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/choosing-your-ticket/season-tickets/flexi-season-ticket?utm_source=Inspire&utm_medium=email&utm_term=find_out_more&utm_content=EB1151175&utm_campaign=PL_FLEXI_ST_21 (https://www.gwr.com/your-tickets/choosing-your-ticket/season-tickets/flexi-season-ticket?utm_source=Inspire&utm_medium=email&utm_term=find_out_more&utm_content=EB1151175&utm_campaign=PL_FLEXI_ST_21) No prices yet but coming in a couple of weeks. Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on June 21, 2021, 01:47:39 On sale from today ... for use starting a week from now.
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57547391) Quote New flexible season tickets go on sale from Monday aimed at commuters who only travel to work two or three days a week. The new tickets can be used for eight days in any month-long period. The National Rail website will allow passengers to calculate savings and book the new tickets. It's part of the government's planned shake-up of rail services, but is being introduced immediately to cater to the trend for more home-working. From 2023 a new state-owned body, Great British Railways (GBR), will set rail timetables and prices, sell tickets in England and manage rail infrastructure. The flexible season tickets are being introduced separately, ahead of the structural changes, and can be used from 28 June. Saving estimates are interesting: Quote The government estimates commuters could save between £60 and £350 a year on selected journeys. when looked against annual season ticket costs doesn't look like a big saving I am not sure, though, if the government is estimating based on those season ticket costs or on the cost of 8 x daily tickets in a month. I would guess that people who are working 3 days a week could use up their ticket and buy another even within the month.Title: Re: Flexible seasons - suggested to be carnets with 15% discount Post by: grahame on June 21, 2021, 09:07:15 Birdie100 wrote the following, and invited a topic split - good idea, continuing at http://gwr.passenger.chat/25134 under the subject
"Flexible seasons - practicalities and questions" Quote Please feel free to split this - but as a possible returning commuter I need some help! I use this as an illustration that the new ticket apparently just seems to make things yet more complex! Suppose I wish to commute to Barbican from Twyford 8x days a month in peak hours. Using the GWR site (as I must - this is a smart ticket only) there appear to be two options - a Flexible Ticket for £211.20 and another for £361.20. One is for Paddington, the other for London Terminals. There appears to be no linked ‘Travelcard’ option for the tube as you’d be used to for the classic day/weekly/annual ticket. I assume each offer 8x days travel Why would anyone ever buy the London Terminals Flexi ticket? From TfL» a single Oyster tube fare is £2.40. So 16x £2.40 is £38.40. I get it’s the purchasers responsibility to check, but that seems a steep penalty of nearly £100 for falling down that trap! Add to that this flexi ticket (I assume) can’t be treated as a gold card, and suddenly this ‘offer’ loses its value. What I can’t work out is if you ‘exhaust’ the FlexiTicket eg actually end up doing 9x days whether you can top up the days as needed or simply reset and rebut a new ticket. As a former annual ticket holder it was a ‘perk’ to have the free weekend travel - now that weekend trip becomes very expensive! I am going to lock this thread - probably for just a few days - so that we don't get answers sprayed into two different places. If anyone wants to post in this thread particularly, please let me know and I can release the lock. I really wish I had an "are you sure you want to post to this thread" option in my moderators toolbox ... This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |