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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: eightonedee on April 27, 2021, 06:32:32 pm



Title: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eightonedee on April 27, 2021, 06:32:32 pm
Dipping into the BBC Local News revealed the following-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-56902528

Perhaps some of our industry insiders have more information? It's just as well this has come to light (and hopefully will be resolved) in current circumstances when traffic is light.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 27, 2021, 06:58:07 pm
It doesn't sound like anything more than you might expect from a new train.  A bit more detail here, with poster Clarence Yard explaining the situation very well (as always) on the second page...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-withdraw-some-800s-due-to-cracks-in-yaw-damper-bolsters.216705/


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on April 27, 2021, 08:19:41 pm
If this was an isolated problem,  I would be at least somewhat forgiving.
However taken together with all the other faults and failures, these are starting to look pretty rubbish.

Failure to couple and uncouple reliably, despite this being an "essential requirement"
Failure to cope with the waves at Dawlish, also an "essential requirement"
Overheating in hot weather.
Poor ride.
Unreliable toilets.
Unreliable reservations.
Poor quality trim and fittings.

And a general failure to meet the required levels of availability that resulted in frequent short formations, forgotten about  with the reduced passenger numbers in the pandemic. But no doubt to return.

The poor standards of passenger comfort and facilities are arguably due to the TOC policy of "what downgrades can we get away with" and not Hitachi's fault, but still gives a poor impression.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on April 27, 2021, 08:58:28 pm
If this was an isolated problem,  I would be at least somewhat forgiving.
However taken together with all the other faults and failures, these are starting to look pretty rubbish.

Failure to couple and uncouple reliably, despite this being an "essential requirement"
Failure to cope with the waves at Dawlish, also an "essential requirement"
Overheating in hot weather.
Poor ride.
Unreliable toilets.
Unreliable reservations.
Poor quality trim and fittings.

And a general failure to meet the required levels of availability that resulted in frequent short formations, forgotten about  with the reduced passenger numbers in the pandemic. But no doubt to return.

The poor standards of passenger comfort and facilities are arguably due to the TOC policy of "what...
For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyN on April 27, 2021, 09:37:28 pm
It doesn't sound like anything more than you might expect from a new train.  A bit more detail here, with poster Clarence Yard explaining the situation very well (as always) on the second page...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-withdraw-some-800s-due-to-cracks-in-yaw-damper-bolsters.216705/

Having read the posts on railforums I am reminded that every time I travel over the Cotswold line on an IET there are some loud thumping noises while traversing the Paxford curves between Campden tunnel and Moreton in Marsh.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on April 27, 2021, 11:50:47 pm
For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs, out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT, and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.




Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 28, 2021, 06:55:20 am
For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs, out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT, and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.




That's most of the broadgage bingo card ticked off and it's not yet 0700!  An omen for a productive day?  :)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eightf48544 on April 28, 2021, 02:22:16 pm
As the wellknown quote goes:

" 'To lose one set of yaw dampers (CAF) may be regarded as a misfortune, to lose two
(Hitachi) looks like carelessness."

Possibly a combination of inadequate design to cope with poor track as mentioned by TonyM


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on April 28, 2021, 04:18:29 pm
Also concerning in my view is that these failures have occurred on what are still relatively new trains.
Fatigue failures have two main causes, poor design and a certain inevitability after the planned service life.

Good design consists largely of avoiding "stress raisers" such as sudden changes of shape or cross section in highly stressed components. For this reason the windows in aircraft and ships are either circular, or rectangular with rounded corners. A rectangular design with sharp corners would be liable to stress fractures at the corners. Likewise highly stressed engine components are designed without sharp corners. A narrow piston rod is connected to the wide piston by a curved formation not a straight transition from rod to disc, which would be liable to stress fractures.
Hitachi engineers are no doubt aware of this, it is basic engineering.
The other part of good design is selection of the correct materials, strong but not too hard/brittle. This is a bit more complex, and it is possible that unsuitable material was used, either wrongly specified, or correctly specified but the actual material used was different, perhaps in some subtle way that was not obvious.
And of course good design includes designing for the stresses to which a component will be subjected in its life. That includes rather a lot of unknowns.

Eventual fatigue failure is almost inevitable in highly stressed components, that is why intensively used aircraft have a limited life, determined in either flight hours, or by number of take off cycles. Life could be extended almost indefinitely by stronger construction, but that would render the machine too heavy to fly economically.

Fatigue failure after say 35 years, on a train designed to last 27.5 years would be nothing remarkable.
Fatigue failure only about 10% into the design life is much more concerning.
It suggests either poor design, defective materials, or the stresses being so badly under estimated that failure occurred very early in the planned life.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on April 28, 2021, 05:03:20 pm
Also concerning in my view is that these failures have occurred on what are still relatively new trains.
Fatigue failures have two main causes, poor design and a certain inevitability after the planned service life.

Good design consists largely of avoiding "stress raisers" such as sudden changes of shape or cross section in highly stressed components. For this reason the windows in aircraft and ships are either circular, or rectangular with rounded corners. A rectangular design with sharp corners would be liable to stress fractures at the corners. Likewise highly stressed engine components are designed without sharp corners. A narrow piston rod is connected to the wide piston by a curved formation not a straight transition from rod to disc, which would be liable to stress fractures.
Hitachi engineers are no doubt aware of this, it is basic engineering.
The other part of good design is selection of the correct materials, strong but not too hard/brittle. This is a bit more complex, and it is possible that unsuitable material was used, either wrongly specified, or correctly specified but the actual material used was different, perhaps in some subtle way that was not obvious.
And of course good design includes designing for the stresses to which a component will be subjected in its life. That includes rather a lot of unknowns.

Eventual fatigue failure is almost inevitable in highly stressed components, that is why intensively used aircraft have a limited life, determined in either flight hours, or by number of take off cycles. Life could be extended almost indefinitely by stronger construction, but that would render the machine too heavy to fly economically.

Fatigue failure after say 35 years, on a train designed to last 27.5 years would be nothing remarkable.
Fatigue failure only about 10% into the design life is much more concerning.
It suggests either poor design, defective materials, or the stresses being so badly under estimated that failure occurred very early in the planned life.

House!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on April 28, 2021, 05:16:11 pm
The much exulted Mark 3 coach (Mk3) and High Speed Train (HST) power cars suffered from cracks in bogie components right from the early days in the mid 1970's.  The worse failure was the brake disks on the power cars.

Nothing new, remember these trains many more miles in a week than almost any other form of land vehicle,

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 28, 2021, 05:27:38 pm
This sort of thing happens with most new train designs as I said.  In fact it was a similar problem on a new train from a different manufacturer which prompted the check that led to its discovery on a small number of units.

I expect regular inspections, maintenance and an eventual modification will mean this is soon forgotten about by everyone...except Broadgage. ;)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on April 28, 2021, 06:08:02 pm
Even I will forgive and maybe forget, provided this does not become a frequently recurring or long ongoing problem.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Incider on May 01, 2021, 07:05:14 am
For one moment I thought I was going to get through a broadgage post on IETs without the inevitable word appearing. You teased me until almost the end.

Which word ? I avoided calling them DMUs, out of deference to those who state that they are not REALLY DMUs despite being powered by underfloor engines.
Neither did I mention buffets, as the lack thereof is not really Hitachi's fault.
Did not even mention the failed trolley service which IS PARTLY Hitachi's fault, since they designed the sloping floors, and they made the "greatly improved" trolleys. The steeply sloping floors, and "wonky wheels" on the trolleys were frequently given as reasons for no trolley/static trolley/hidden trolley. Such factors do not help, but I feel that GWR are not serious about trolley provision, and regard this as a temporary or interim measure between a proper buffet and the longer term aim of nothing.(as on SWT, and others)
Did not even criticise the hard seats or lack of gangways.




Hitachi don’t make the trolleys…..


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 01, 2021, 08:51:50 am
But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 01, 2021, 09:41:20 am
But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the Master Availability and Reliability Agreement  (MARA) and Train Availability and Reliability Agreement (TARA) as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the Train Service Provider (TSP) (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the Train Service Provider(TSP) has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the Train Service Provider (TSP), so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 01, 2021, 10:38:16 am
But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the MARA and TARA as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the TSP (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the TSP has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the TSP, so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23855.msg305117#msg305117) did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 01, 2021, 11:26:56 am
Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23855.msg305117#msg305117) did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!

Of course the words chosen for the name of something, abbreviated or not, can be a poor guide to what it really is or does - as you hint there. The MARA is 731 pages of ... stuff (to be credited to Hogan Lovells International LLP), so there's plenty of room for things to hide until you search explicitly for them or stumble across them. For example:

Seats are included under progressive design assurance, with each mention worded as "seat design, including comfort". But there are more words about the "Seat Weight Model":
Quote
... the TSP will develop the seats for the Sets in a way that allows the Secretary of State to have full visibility of the weight issues relating to seats (which shall involve, as a minimum, the TSP providing the Secretary of State with a Seat Weight Model which shall be updated on a periodic basis as agreed by the parties to reflect the emerging Design), provided that in finalising the design of the seats, the TSP shall also comply with the other Requirements and the requirements of Applicable Laws and Standards and Applicable Derogations.

Seats also get a mention under "Glass Case Standards". What's one of them? (There is a definition provided, fortunately.)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 01, 2021, 02:37:18 pm
Before we lose sight of the original matter, have they been fixed yet?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 01, 2021, 04:50:45 pm
Before we lose sight of the original matter, have they been fixed yet?

I've not seen any news. perhaps a more important question now is how many others have been found on inspection across all fleets. But replacing a few bogies should have been quite possible.

The Master Availability and Reliability Agreement (MARA) lists "major incident spares", essentially parts of the carriage bodies only likely to be bent by a collision, and "damage and vandalism spares", essentially running gear, some of them  likely to be broken by hitting things on the track or by passenger misbehaviour. However, the list also covers items needed for routine maintenance, where performance is the Train Service Provider's (TSP)'s responsibility. It may be hard to split that list on a "who pays" basis.


Either way, the level of spares holding should be a good guide to how many such things can be found at once. The parts' names, on the other hand, are hard to interpret in some cases without a labelled diagram. The list is is no logical order, and names short, so where bits go is ambiguous (e.g. is the "Lateral Bump Stop Rubber" part of a toilet door or a bogie?). These look relevant, or in some cases obvious things that may give some context:

Pantograph Complete             10
Vacuum Circuit Breaker (VCB)  5
Main Transformer                  2
Induction Traction Motor        6
Bogie Truck Assembly (Motor)  8
Bogie Frame                         4
Air Spring                            8
Traction Link                        6
Anti-Rolling Equipment           8
Wheel Set (M)                     16
Bogie Truck Assembly (Trailer) 6
Bogie Frame                         4
Wheel Set (T)                      16
Carbon Strip                        80
Wiper Blade With Rubber        80
Yaw Damper                        40
Lateral Damper                     40
Lateral Bump Stop Rubber      10
Brake Pad                           170
Primary Vertical Damper         40

That list is for the original GWR 800/801 fleet, and appears to be subject to revision at the contract date. But it does suggest that enough bogies could be found quickly, unless they are all trailer bogies (I don't think they can be). Assuming this is still a production item, new castings to replace the cracked ones should also be available on a slightly longer timescale.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: VickiS on May 01, 2021, 11:06:37 pm
But presumably Hitachi specified or supplied the trolleys ? They have an Hitachi asset number affixed, or did when I last looked.

I'm not sure they did. Both the MARA and TARA as published (dated 2014) include "Level 4 catering trolley" in their definition of terms under catering equipment, but neither mentions therm in the text. At that stage (after Agility was given a contract, but before the interior design was fixed) "trolley storage facilities" was listed as one of the subjects to be dealt with by "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance".

It looks as if it became clear later on that the trolleys could only be sensibly kept with the trains in the depots, so were best maintained by the TSP (Agility). The way the contracts are set up that means the TSP has to own them, but not necessarily decide their specification. However, they don't appear on the (very long) list of spares to be held by the TSP, so I assume this was a late change and covered by a contract change not in the public version.

Before VickiS has reads this and has a coronary, MARA stands for "Master Availability and Reliability Agreement", TARA stands for "Train Availability and Reliability Agreement" and TSP stands for "Train Service Provider"

Hope that clarifies things more than my Marsh Barton post (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23855.msg305117#msg305117) did...although I must give them bonus points for the use of "consultation with the user population" under "progressive design assurance" - Outstanding!



Thank you very much Lee for that explenation! Much Apprechiated! :D


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 03, 2021, 08:50:37 am
So there are enough bogies and yaw dampers in stock to hopefully fix up a couple of trains until more can be brought in from Japan, if that is where they are made, or cast somewhere more local. This could be a very short term problem, provided a way of stopping it happening again has been found.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: brooklea on May 03, 2021, 09:19:05 am
I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 03, 2021, 10:26:47 am
I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article)

I agree.

Hitachi will carry out monitoring of the fleet, identify if its a batch / build issue metallurgical analysis etc.  They will almost certainly conduct an engineering risk assessment into the likelihood, consequences and severity of a catastrophic failure.

What mitigations can they put in place, reduced max speed untill a repair is effected etc


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 03, 2021, 01:03:17 pm
I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article)

I agree.

Hitachi will carry out monitoring of the fleet, identify if its a batch / build issue metallurgical analysis etc.  They will almost certainly conduct an engineering risk assessment into the likelihood, consequences and severity of a catastrophic failure.

What mitigations can they put in place, reduced max speed untill a repair is effected etc

Thank you both, for that clarification.

This happens in aviation to a degree. A certain wide-bodied jet based on an adaptation of a previous model began to show cracks at one of the points that was different to the earlier plane. At 500 mph and 38,000 feet, any failure would have been catastrophic. A fix was quickly found, tested and applied, and monitoring afterwards has shown it to have been successful. I am sure we will soon see a similar outcome with the IETs.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 04, 2021, 03:17:56 am
I think it’s probably worth pointing out that the fix for this fault is not changing bogies or yaw dampers, as a few posts above seem to be suggesting. The cracks that have been discovered are on the body shells in the area where the yaw damper brackets are welded to the body shell

Some photos and reporting can be found on the rail business UK website (free registration maybe required to access the full article) https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article (https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/fatigue-cracks-sideline-gwr-class-800s/59012.article)

Thanks for that, I was presuming that the cracks were in the Yaw dampers or bogies, expensive but replaceable or repairable components.
Cracks in the body shell sound more challenging. Presumably minor cracks can be monitored or perhaps "stop drilled*" to prevent them spreading.
Major cracks would seem to require cutting out the damaged part and welding in a new section. Welding of aluminium is a challenge and there can be some risk of new cracks starting from the join.

Are there any publicly viewable pictures of the damage, not requiring membership or subscription to view ?

*"stop drilling" is a technique used primarily on aircraft. When a small and not yet dangerous fatigue crack occurs, it tends to spread because of the concentrated stress at the end of the crack. Spread can sometimes be prevented or delayed by drilling a small hole at the end of the crack. This spreads the forces around the circumference of the hole rather than concentrating them at one tiny point at the end of the crack.
Regular inspection is required not only of the "stop drilled" part, but also of similar parts elsewhere on the vehicle or on similar vehicles.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 04, 2021, 10:23:56 am
Quote
However, we now have the vehicle numbers (814012 and 814013), and with formation data from the Spotlog site (now I wonder what that's about ...) these are both the same type and almost certainly type MEC3. So that's an intermediate motor coach, not a driving trailer as I had previously presumed.

814012 is out and about today on a diagram, so it can’t be too bad.  I imagine it’ll be more a case of monitoring rather than repair for the time being.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:05:36 am
Quote
Cancellations to services at London Paddington
Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time at London Paddington fewer trains are able to run on some lines.
Train services running to and from this station have been cancelled. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Customer Advice
Owing to the short notice unavailability of carriages which form our High Speed train services there will be no train services or alternative means of transport available for throughout journeys, in either direction, on the following routes :-
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads.
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central - Swansea.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter St Davids - Plymouth - Penzance.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Oxford - Evesham - Worcester - Great Malvern - Hereford.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa.
.
INTENDING CUSTOMERS FOR THESE ROUTES ARE ADVISED NOT TO ATTEMPT TO TRAVEL

In those areas such as Paddington / Reading / Didcot Parkway / Oxford / Bristol & Exeter local areas / Cardiff - Portsmouth and around 75% of Plymouth - Penzance services will continue to operate.
.
Further Information

If you hold a valid single, return, or weekly ticket, you will be able to claim compensation for delays of 15 minutes or more. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR.com/DelayRepay

Last Updated:08/05/2021 05:54


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:08:36 am
Quote
Route affected
All LNER routes
 
TOC(s) affected
LNER;
Description
A problem under investigation across the LNER route means services are subject to severe delays and cancellations today.
Customers are advised to not travel on LNER services today.
You are encouraged to use an alternative mode of transport to complete your journey today.
Customer Advice:
Due to social distancing requirements, seats are extremely limited on services and reservations are mandatory. Please visit the LNER website for more information.
LNER tickets for today are valid up to and including Sunday 16 May.
If you decide not to travel, a full refund is available. Please contact your original point of ticket purchase within 28 days to claim your refund.
Ticket Acceptance:
You may use routes listed on the following disruption map.
LNER tickets will be valid with the following train operating companies:
Avanti West Coast between London Euston and Manchester for customers with an open ticket
TransPennine Express between Manchester, Leeds and York
East Midlands Railway between London St Pancras International and Sheffield
Northern services between Sheffield, Leeds and York and via any other reasonable route
Thmeslink services between London, Stevenage and Peterborough
 
Rail replacement coaches are in operation at York, Newcastle and Edinburgh.
Check before you travel:
You can check your journey using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner
Twitter:
If you would like to follow this incident on Twitter, please use #LNERUpdate
Compensation:
You may be entitled to compensation if you experience a delay in completing your journey today. Please keep your train ticket and make a note of your journey, as both will be required to support any claim.
Feedback:
We want to make information better – tell us how! Fill out this online Disruption Survey.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:10:49 am
Quote
Hull Trains services on all routes
 
TOC(s) affected
Hull Trains;
Description
A fault with Hull Trains fleet of trains means that that there will be short notice cancellations to Hull Trains services today.
Alternative travel advice:
You may use your tickets on Northern services between Hull and Sheffield. Customers are able to use East Midlands Railway services between Sheffield and London St Pancras International.
Customers at Retford and Grantham are advised to await further instructions.
Check before you travel:
You can check your journey using the National Rail Enquiries real-time Journey Planner
Twitter:
If you would like to follow this incident on Twitter, please use #HullTrains
Compensation:
You may be entitled to compensation if you experience a delay in completing your journey today. Please keep your train ticket and make a note of your journey, as both will be required to support any claim.
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Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:20:57 am
And TPE services such as Newcastle to Liverpool now (06:20) starting to show up as "delayed" then "cancelled".


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: REVUpminster on May 08, 2021, 06:40:18 am
All GWRs are affected as well.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 06:49:49 am
I presume that many Great Western Railway (GWR) services are also 5 car only.
These are not of course short formations, but show the merits of flexible train length.

They should have kept High Speed Train's (HST)s, not indefinitely of course, but for a few years just in case something like this happened.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: REVUpminster on May 08, 2021, 06:52:53 am
Looked on Dawlish cams and 1A71 went through as a 9 car 802  7 minutes late at 06.50.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:56:22 am
All GWRs are affected as well.

Indeed - reported ahead of the flood of other TOCs ...

Quote
Cancellations to services at London Paddington
Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time at London Paddington fewer trains are able to run on some lines.
Train services running to and from this station have been cancelled. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Customer Advice
Owing to the short notice unavailability of carriages which form our High Speed train services there will be no train services or alternative means of transport available for throughout journeys, in either direction, on the following routes :-
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads.
.
London Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central - Swansea.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter St Davids - Plymouth - Penzance.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Oxford - Evesham - Worcester - Great Malvern - Hereford.
.
London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa.

Chosen headline of "Cancellation to services at London Paddington" rather confirms how London-centric thinking is, and noting "no alternative means of transport"; at short notice, that last seems brutal but may be honest - LNER are offering some limited buses but I wonder how that will turn out.

I presume that many GWR services are also 5 car only.
These are not of course short formations, but show the merits of flexible train length.

They should have kept HSTs, not indefinitely of course, but for a few years just in case something like this happened.

Hmmm ... probably a massive expense with unlikely any payback.

We know there are risk assessments and contingent plans for all sorts of scenarios.  Is there such a plan for a complete fleet (class) being taken out of service - not the first time, after all - I remember something on Heathrow Express ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 06:58:04 am
Looked on Dawlish cams and 1A71 went through as a 9 car 802  7 minutes late at 06.50.

Already on the line when the "stop order" came out??

Edit to add ... it was 05:00 off Laira - though ran late.  06:00 off Laira - next train - cancelled.
Interesting to see if it runs all the way to London ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 06:59:13 am
GWR advice is now "do not attempt to travel" on most of their long distance services.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 08, 2021, 07:24:51 am
Sounds pretty serious. Shame so many High Speed Train (HST) sets have already been cut up at Sim’s Newport  :(

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 07:31:24 am
Sounds pretty serious. Shame so many HST sets have already been cut up at Sim’s Newport  :(

Serious indeed - but do we yet know if it's going to be something to which is going to be long running, and will the problem remain as "deep" as all stop until whatever it is has been either checked or fixed on every train?   Noting that the IET that set of this morning early from Plymouth - at last look. was running all the way to London and at scheduled speed


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 07:36:39 am
Presumably Hitachi will be covering the cost of hiring alternative rolling stock, and buses. And yes I know that alternatives are limited, but every little helps.
And Hitachi will of course be applying for some form of emergency derogation to permit use of heritage stock on the less busy parts of the national network.
Use preserved steamers and mark 2 coaches on the branch lines and in the far West, thereby freeing up castles, turbos, pacers and the like for the more intensively used routes nearer London.

Is Tornado available ?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 08, 2021, 07:44:17 am
Serious indeed - but do we yet know if it's going to be something to which is going to be long running, and will the problem remain as "deep" as all stop until whatever it is has been either checked or fixed on every train?   Noting that the IET that set of this morning early from Plymouth - at last look. was running all the way to London and at scheduled speed
Looking like sets are being inspected and released for service if the issue that’s been raised isn’t found on that particular set.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 08:05:14 am
Is Tornado available ?

https://www.a1steam.com/where-tornado-is-now/
Quote
Tornado is currently stabled at Stewarts Lane.

Next scheduled run 22nd May.

Was you question serious  ;D


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 08:18:18 am
Is Tornado available ?

https://www.a1steam.com/where-tornado-is-now/
Quote
Tornado is currently stabled at Stewarts Lane.

Next scheduled run 22nd May.

Was you question serious  ;D

Semi serious.
If the IET problems carry on for more than a day or two, then yes consideration should be given to use of Tornado, Flying Scotsman, and the like to provide a limited service.
I doubt that enough charter stock is available for anything like a full service, but even a few services are better than doing nothing.
Much more likely though is simply ongoing advice not to travel.

I expect that disruption will be ongoing. Todays level of cancellations suggests a more serious problem than was the case initially. Even if only a handful of units have cracks at present, there is a risk of future cracks suggesting a need for frequent examinations.
And even if the cracks are considered minor and non dangerous, they are liable to get worse, again requiring frequent examinations and withdrawal for repairs when the cracks get worse.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: infoman on May 08, 2021, 08:26:49 am
Now being reported on BBC news at 08:26am saturday morning


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 08, 2021, 08:27:02 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This type of regular chaos is one of the reasons why the car will always be king.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 08, 2021, 08:38:49 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This is why the car will always be king.

Virtually no notice - what do expect? Run them with a potentially serious defect?  Boeing did that until there had been many fatalities!

No alternatives provided - what do expect them to do at no notice?  Perhaps you would like your season ticket price to increase to provide a whole standby fleet of trains or buses in warm storage (with regular staff training so that they can be used anywhere on the network) to be brought out at a moment's notice for just such an eventuality. 

The failure is that in the drive to reduce costs we have become over-reliant on one model of train. This sort of thing happens to cars as well (though usually only as a result of accidents as they do provide notice) and they are recalled, but there are many makes and models so the impact is much smaller. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 08, 2021, 08:48:06 am
National Rail on twitter

Quote
Some GWR, Hull Trains, LNER and TPE trains have been taken out of service today for safety checks as a precautionary measure. Once trains have been checked, they will be released back into service as soon as possible. Please check before travel.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 08, 2021, 08:53:24 am
BBC news website

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247.amp

Quote
Great Western Railway services have been cancelled after hairline cracks were found in a number of its high-speed trains.
The cracks were found in the suspension of its Hitachi 800 trains, a spokesman said.
He added that all such trains were now having to be checked.
All high-speed GWR services between London, Bristol, Cardiff and Penzance have been cancelled and customers are advised not to attempt to travel today.
The GWR spokesperson said London North Eastern Railways, which operates the East Coast Mainline, was facing similar problems, the BBC's correspondent Jon Donnison said.
LNER is also advising its customers not to travel today.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 09:12:28 am
Quote
Avanti West Coast and West Midlands Railway are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for Great Western Railway rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.

Good.

No SWR?   Ah ... bussed west from Salisbury!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 08, 2021, 09:25:37 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This is why the car will always be king.

Virtually no notice - what do expect? Run them with a potentially serious defect?  Boeing did that until there had been many fatalities!

No alternatives provided - what do expect them to do at no notice?  Perhaps you would like your season ticket price to increase to provide a whole standby fleet of trains or buses in warm storage (with regular staff training so that they can be used anywhere on the network) to be brought out at a moment's notice for just such an eventuality. 

The failure is that in the drive to reduce costs we have become over-reliant on one model of train. This sort of thing happens to cars as well (though usually only as a result of accidents as they do provide notice) and they are recalled, but there are many makes and models so the impact is much smaller. 


I didn't see myself suggesting that trains should be run with serious defects?  Contrary to the prevailing culture on the railways however, I'm looking at the fallout from the customer perspective.

You can fire back with passive/aggressive rhetoric if you wish, but it'll be the verdict of those standing on platforms in the rain, or who have had to cancel long awaited trips to see family and friends which will count in the end, and I suspect that verdict will ultimately see many of them on the M4 next time.

My understanding was that this problem was first flagged almost a fortnight ago, so one would imagine some sort of contingency  or at least advance communication could have been arranged.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 09:37:19 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This type of regular chaos is one of the reasons why the car will always be king.

Regretfully, I agree. Whilst this particular problem is a new problem, it needs to be taken in the context of other major failures of "the railway"
Large scale signaling failures that have resulted in no effective service from major London termini, and huge disruption resulting from moderately adverse weather during which airlines and motorways operate as normal.

For reasons previously given elsewhere in these fora, I am opposed to flying and driving. If however people are to be tempted out of cars and aircraft, then "the railway" needs to up its game.
A reliable service of full length trains, even in hot weather, cold weather , snow, rain, and high tides.
Enough capacity to cope with Christmas, School holidays, Cup finals, Easter, Rugby internationals, Pop concerts, festivals, bank holidays, and all the other events with which they miserably fail to cope with.

Had the IETs been otherwise good trains, I would be a bit more forgiving, but this is the latest and arguably the most serious failure of a generally failed design.

And yes I know that High Speed Train's (HST)s and other "proper trains" suffered from various faults and failures, but I do not EVER recall general advice  to "not travel" by train resulting.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: hoover50 on May 08, 2021, 09:41:51 am
They should have kept HSTs, not indefinitely of course, but for a few years just in case something like this happened.

I agree. It is a crying shame that over 300 High Speed Train (HST) Mk3 carriages have now been scrapped.

These trains were very popular with the travelling public with many years of life left in them. Following refurbishment, some are still in service with Scotrail, Cross Country and GWR as "Castle" sets.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 08, 2021, 10:00:32 am
You can fire back with passive/aggressive rhetoric if you wish, but it'll be the verdict of those standing on platforms in the rain, or who have had to cancel long awaited trips to see family and friends which will count in the end, and I suspect that verdict will ultimately see many of them on the M4 next time.

Apologies if my response was seen as aggressive.

I am sure we all accept that the impact on passengers will be damaging to the industry at a time when confidence is already low.  

However, my point remains that you cannot go for cost cutting and have a resilient railway at the same time.

On road travel my second worst* travel experience was a 5 hours stuck on the M4 trapped by a lorry fire. So roads have their problems as well.  

*My worst being on FGW when I was on the 1845 train from Paddington on Friday 8 September 1995 which was trapped by the fire on the 18.30 Paddington to Swansea train near Maidenhead after the one where the HST caught fire. Still that could have been worse as I initially got on the 18:30 train but got off again as it was too overcrowded and I couldn't face standing all the way to the first stop at Reading.

They should have kept HSTs, not indefinitely of course, but for a few years just in case something like this happened.

I agree. It is a crying shame that over 300 HST Mk3 carriages have now been scrapped.

These trains were very popular with the travelling public with many years of life left in them. Following refurbishment, some are still in service with Scotrail, Cross Country and GWR as "Castle" sets.

They were, but as I understand it the ones that have been scrapped had severe corrosion so were probably at the end of their economic life.  The lack of any form of crash protection for the driver has also recently been highlighted on here http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23891.msg305382#msg305382 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23891.msg305382#msg305382).  The rules were that passengers could not be in the power cars as they weren't sufficiently protected in the event of a crash, but this means that the driver is somehow seen as expendable.  Not an argument that is easy to sustain morally. 





Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 10:02:45 am
Quote
Avanti West Coast and West Midlands Railway are conveying passengers via any reasonable route until further notice. Arrangements have been made for Great Western Railway rail tickets to be accepted for these journeys.

Good.

No SWR?   Ah ... bussed west from Salisbury!

What a fiasco.
Time to send for the army ! and yes that IS A SERIOUS SUGGESTION. Not to run the trains, HM forces would be subject to similar constraints as the TOCs.
I would send for the army for the specific task of refueling the SWT units since "the railway" is clearly unable to cope with the logistics of this hugely complex task.
With HM forces refueling the SWT units, a limited alternative to the GWR services could be provided. AND the buses at present being used could be redeployed to replace a few GWR trains.


Under normal circumstances, the inability of the railway to refuel some DMUs away from the usual depot, would be just normal railway incompetence.
However with the defective trains on GWR, circumstances are not normal and extreme measures are called for.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 08, 2021, 10:19:13 am
Now being suggested it is related to the lifting jack pockets rather than yaw damper fixing

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1390956711922610177?s=21


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 08, 2021, 10:25:25 am
Now being suggested it is related to the lifting jack pockets rather than yaw damper fixing

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1390956711922610177?s=21

I thought it was that from the start - those pesky jack pockets!  ;)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 10:30:53 am
Now being suggested it is related to the lifting jack pockets rather than yaw damper fixing

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1390956711922610177?s=21

Interesting, but I do not find the linked reports entirely clear.
Are the originally reported cracks now believed to be due to the lifting jack pockets, and not due to the yaw damper fixings ?

Or are there now two different sorts of cracks, yaw damper related and lifting pocket related ?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 10:36:57 am
https://www.facebook.com/gwruk/posts/10157820336986806

Quote
Due to a number of Intercity Express Trains taken out of service for precautionary checks, there will be significant disruption across the network today
Customers are advised not to travel

Full Refunds will be provided

Visit http://gwr.com for more information

Slightly unfortunate what it's followed by a linked post saying

Quote
Buy Cheap Train Tickets | Great Western Railway | First Great Western
Buy now and save money with cheap train tickets. With no booking fees and Nectar points to collect.

- perhaps not the most tactful of things to advertised below the "don't travel today" headline?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 08, 2021, 10:46:04 am
Looks like there's a skeleton service on the Cotswold Line, at least - Iris/RTT appear to show one five-coach IET running, and apparently there was a Turbo earlier.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 10:47:44 am
Now 75 cancellations compared to 17 early this morning.
And that is about 75 EXTRA cancellations and not 58 extra as one might suppose, since the earlier cancelations have now dropped of the system as they would have completed their journey.

Many other part cancelations.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 08, 2021, 11:03:54 am
CrossCountry apparently not accepting GWR tickets  -  someone has raised the very good point about people at the end of their trip who need to get home and are now stranded in the absence of GWR making alternative arrangements, rather than those who were planning to embark today.

GWR remaining silent on that one, but I suspect a lot of taxi drivers will be eyeing upgrades to Aston Martins after this weekend.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Incider on May 08, 2021, 11:08:25 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This type of regular chaos is one of the reasons why the car will always be king.

I wouldn’t say this is a regular type of chaos, can you remember the last time something similar happened?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 08, 2021, 11:14:32 am
Posting this from the comfort of an IET between Charlbury and Hanborough... so at least some are still running!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 11:16:08 am
Hindsight being marvellous ... what an excellent day to extend 387 services to Cardiff ... even if that reduces their frequency between Paddington and Didcot.  And what an excellent day it would be for all tickets to be "any reasonable route, any operator" in the circumstances!

I wouldn’t say this is a regular type of chaos, can you remember the last time something similar happened?

The time all HEX trains were taken out of service?   When was that?

The question, is though, whether you consider "Something similar" from a train operators viewpoint (i.e. all trains of a class suddenly out of service) or from a customer's viewpoint (my train and alternative services also not running)



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 11:17:54 am
Being covered on BBC News now.

Virtually no notice for those intending to travel and no alternatives provided

Another self inflicted injury and a dreadful advert for GWR/the railways as they attempt to recover some business and attract new customers - these trains are, by railway standards, brand new.

This type of regular chaos is one of the reasons why the car will always be king.

I wouldn’t say this is a regular type of chaos, can you remember the last time something similar happened?

No it is not the REGULAR type of chaos, but is instead a new and improved type of chaos.
The more usual types of chaos are large scale signaling failures resulting in no effective service, and moderately adverse weather. Over-Head Line Equipment (OHLE) faults safety inspections were added  to the traditional cock ups, and now we have fatigue failures on the new trains.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: REVUpminster on May 08, 2021, 11:25:22 am
Had another look at dawlish warren 1A60 as a 5 car 802 went through. Not listed on Realtime trains.

A 166 hurtled through operating 2T14 to Paignton and a shuttle 5Z42/43 etc using the 2 car 165 between Newton Abbott and Exeter


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 08, 2021, 11:25:57 am
There's currently an additional hourly fast Paddington-Didcot service stopping only at Reading and formed of 387s - departure times are at xx.30 from either end.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 11:26:22 am
CrossCountry apparently not accepting GWR tickets  -  someone has raised the very good point about people at the end of their trip who need to get home and are now stranded in the absence of GWR making alternative arrangements, rather than those who were planning to embark today.

GWR remaining silent on that one, but I suspect a lot of taxi drivers will be eyeing upgrades to Aston Martins after this weekend.

Presuming that this is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, I wonder what would happen to a passenger with a valid GWR ticket who boarded a Cross Country service and refused to pay again.

If the case went to court, I suspect that a jury might not convict the accused. A judge or jury MIGHT take the view that the passenger had already paid for the service, and should not be required to pay twice.
A court MIGHT rule that GWR and Cross country should sort it out among themselves and not blame the passenger.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 08, 2021, 11:42:43 am
Interesting to note that the disruption map at the top of the forum front page currently looks like the old BR logo chopped in half.

Perhaps it's a sign...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: phile on May 08, 2021, 11:45:17 am
Had another look at dawlish warren 1A60 as a 5 car 802 went through. Not listed on Realtime trains.

A 166 hurtled through operating 2T14 to Paignton and a shuttle 5Z42/43 etc using the 2 car 165 between Newton Abbott and Exeter

Don't know what the 165 shuttle is because they are running with 5xxx Headcode


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: didcotdean on May 08, 2021, 11:51:29 am
Cross Country are accepting GWR tickets now, at least according to GWR twitter. (As well as Avanti West Coast, West Midlands Railway, & Chiltern)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 12:25:48 pm
Now covered on the BBC - "most read" there ! - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247

Quote
Services on two of the country's busiest railways are facing severe disruption after cracks were spotted on some high-speed trains.

Most Great Western Main Line trains to and from London Paddington have been cancelled.

London North Eastern Railways is asking passengers not to travel on the East Coast Main Line today.

Hitachi has apologised after hairline cracks were found in the suspension units of some of its 800 series trains.

Some of the trains have been taken out of service as a "precautionary measure to allow for thorough investigations", the company said, adding it was working to resolve the issue as quickly and safely as possible.

"We would like to offer our sincerest apologies to passengers for the impact this may be causing for their travel plans."

Hull Trains and TransPennine Express services are also affected by the problem.

Passengers have been advised to check train operators' websites before travelling.

On GWR it says more ...

Quote
All high-speed Great Western Railway services between London, Bristol, Cardiff and Penzance have been cancelled and customers are advised not to attempt to travel today.

It has warned the problem could affect services on Sunday too.

The company said cracks were detected on "more than one" Hitachi 800 train, so all 93 in its fleet are being inspected as a "precaution".

The spokesman added that the issue is affecting long-distance journeys between cities, which are being refunded, but that suburban and rural GWR services are still running as normal.

GWR passengers affected by cancellations can use their tickets on the following operators' services instead:
* Avanti West Coast trains between Birmingham New Street and London Euston
* London Northwestern Railway trains between Birmingham New Street and London Euston
* West Midlands Railway trains between Hereford/Worcester and Birmingham New Street

No mention on the BBC of either Cross-country or SWR, though an alternative Bristol to London route would be via Salisbury (pity about the buses between Warminster and Salisbury, but just about the only public transport option ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 12:35:51 pm
From Greatest Hits Radio (https://planetradio.co.uk/greatest-hits/cornwall/news/disruption-trains-cornwall-london/)

Quote
... Great Western Railway is advising passengers not to travel amid reports of cracks found in some trains ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/catro.jpg)

Surely "Passengers for Chippenham and Swindon should change at Trowbridge, from where there is a limited onward service ..."


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 08, 2021, 12:42:28 pm

Interesting, but I do not find the linked reports entirely clear.
Are the originally reported cracks now believed to be due to the lifting jack pockets, and not due to the yaw damper fixings ?

Or are there now two different sorts of cracks, yaw damper related and lifting pocket related ?

Two totally unrelated issues


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 12:50:28 pm
Surely "Passengers for Chippenham and Swindon should change at Trowbridge, from where there is a limited onward service ..."

Hmmm ...


Quote
12:05 Westbury to Swindon due 12:47
12:05 Westbury to Swindon due 12:47 has been delayed at Westbury and is now 30 minutes late.
This is due to a fault on this train.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 01:05:45 pm
Surely "Passengers for Chippenham and Swindon should change at Trowbridge, from where there is a limited onward service ..."

Would seem there are some shuttles running.

Quote
12:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 14:03
12:30 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 14:03 will be reinstated.
It will be started from Swindon.
It will no longer call at London Paddington, Reading and Didcot Parkway.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.

Now - are the 387s reaching Swindon in passenger service?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: patch38 on May 08, 2021, 01:16:27 pm
There appears to be at least one 166 shuttling between Swindon and Gloucester/Cheltenham.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 08, 2021, 01:30:19 pm
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247) from a long article

Quote
Roger Ford, industry and technology editor at the magazine Modern Railways, said the problem is "with the weld cracking underneath [the train's] body shell" which he explained led to about 180 trains being taken out of service on Saturday morning for inspection.

So unrelated to the problems a couple of weeks ago


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 08, 2021, 01:43:33 pm
Whatever the reason, it’s a very poor day for the reputation of Hitachi, which will of course flow along the chain to the two main operators of the train and the industry in general.  If it goes on beyond the weekend then it could become a defining moment for the train...cast your mind back to how the APT never recovered from initial troubles.

As it is, the good news is that it’s a miserable day weather wise which will help to suppress already very low passengers numbers.

There are several reasons why Turbos/387s can’t just be substituted.  There aren’t enough of them, limited crew are trained on them, and DOO regulations means I doubt you’ll see 387s running to Swindon in passenger service, unless this issue carried on for many days when alternative operating arrangements could be made.

I’ll save any more comment until the hysteria has died down a little.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 01:55:23 pm

Interesting, but I do not find the linked reports entirely clear.
Are the originally reported cracks now believed to be due to the lifting jack pockets, and not due to the yaw damper fixings ?

Or are there now two different sorts of cracks, yaw damper related and lifting pocket related ?

Two totally unrelated issues

One lot of cracks is unfortunate but could perhaps be explained away as bad luck, or some exceptional and not be repeated event.
TWO UNRELATED lots of cracks starts to look like a seriously defective design.

And these issues only about 10% into the design life of the wretched things. How many other cracks or fatigue failures await a bit further into the design life.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 02:12:07 pm
... and DOO regulations means I doubt you’ll see 387s running to Swindon in passenger service ....

Grr!  - I had overlooked that ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 02:22:15 pm
Rail minister warns of "prolonged disruption"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 02:41:41 pm
My crystal ball forecasts significant disruption for the rest of this year and perhaps for longer, for the following reasons.

1) Before these latest problems, IET reliability and availability had been poor with many short forms due to "more trains than usual needing repair" Therefore even a slight reduction in availability will have a significant impact on services.

2) Some units are known to have cracks. Repairs to structural aluminium are a specialist and time consuming job. The first few repaired units will need very frequent checks.

3) Other units may suffer from similar cracks, and even if no more cracks are found, the frequent precautionary inspections will have a significant impact on availability.

4) Units without cracks at present seem liable to suffer in future and will need future withdrawal for repairs.

5) The many detailed checks and inspections may find other faults.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 08, 2021, 03:14:40 pm
..and if the train is running, you may not be able to get on it.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/1L22.png)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 03:46:11 pm
..and if the train is running, you may not be able to get on it.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/1L22.png)

Why tell you where the zones are if it's set down only?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 08, 2021, 03:48:21 pm
Better than that - at the last minute it was swung over to platform 4 while a train to Bristol was crossed over to platform 1.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 04:26:52 pm
Better than that - at the last minute it was swung over to platform 4 while a train to Bristol was crossed over to platform 1.

Can't recall seeing that before - how does it get back "right line" towards London?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 08, 2021, 04:40:23 pm
Ran wrong line as far as Bourton and then crossed over.  As that was going on a non stop service to Penzance was crossed over at Bourton to also run wrong line to take the centre road through Swindon station.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 08, 2021, 04:44:48 pm
Statement from Hitachi

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hitachi.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 04:54:10 pm
From This is Wiltshire (https://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/19288418.gwr-intercity-trains-cancelled-today-for-precautionary-checks/) - timed a few hours ago ...

Quote
ALL INTERCITY trains through Swindon have been cancelled today for what Great Western Railway has described as "precautionary checks" on the services.

The move follows reports last month that a crack was found on a vehicle at Hitachi's North Pole depot in west London, where GWR's new Intercity trains undergo regular checks.

The cancellation is likely to cause widespread disruption, with all fast trains to and from London Paddington along the west coast main line cancelled. Local services continue to run.

Picture shows an High Speed Train (HST) and Turbo ...

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 08, 2021, 04:54:53 pm
It might be helpful to see where the jacking point on an 80x is, and this picture on Wikipedia just happens to show it:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Captain_Tom_Moore_Train_Naming.jpg)

Below the door there are steps, and to the right of them is what looks like a small square foothold - that's where a steel bar can be threaded through to hoist the body by crane. Depot equipment might have a different way of engaging in the same place. There's a "jack here" symbol above it if you look closely.

That white bit, whatever you call it, is reinforcement to provide attachments strong enough to mount the bogie to. I've not found a picture that shows what happens further under the floor, but I imagine what we see is the side of a plate that runs all the way across and also has the bogie pivot bearing fixed to it. It has to spread the large point loads over multiple attachment points to the relatively flimsy body shell.

The new issue has been described as a cracked weld, which might imply that this reinforcing plate is coming away from the body shell. Then again, it might not - and it might only be near a weld. Presumably the inspections, following the earlier cracks being found, have been extended to other similar areas and that has revealed a new problem. Judging by the reaction, that all units must be inspected at once and not run at all until seen to be unaffected, it must be potentially pretty serious.

The site of the earlier cracking, the famous "yaw damper bolster", is at the left-hand end of the same white object along the underside of the body shell. The yaw damper bracket attaches at two points, and the cracks run above left-hand one of those. However, those cracks were not on one of these vehicles, but on one of the intermediate motor ones (MEC3). I'm sure there are some minor differences in the various bits, though the bogie is of the same basic design.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ray951 on May 08, 2021, 05:15:16 pm
... and DOO regulations means I doubt you’ll see 387s running to Swindon in passenger service ....

Grr!  - I had overlooked that ...
Why would DOO be a problem?

If DOO relies on infrastructure on the platform then I can see it would be an issue, but again couldn't infrastructure be replaced by a person on the platform making sure all doors are clear and or shut and then communicating that to the driver? I realise it is a bit more complicated than that as you need to find the people, make sure they can be identified by the driver, understand what their duties are, the 'workaround' then has to be communciated to everyone, etc. and all of that will take time.
If DOO doesnt rely on any off-train infrastructure then what is the issue?

And if you don't want to run as DOO could a guard not be assigned to the trains? Class 800/802 and 165/166 can operate with and without guards is the same true of class 387?

I can appreciate that it takes time to organise replacement processes when must of your trains get taken out of service but I would hope that if this continues beyond today/tomorrow then GWR will attempt to run at least a skelton service rather than just telling passengers sorry but we can't do anything.

I assume that GWR has a risk register and would be interested to know if all trains of one type being taken out of service is one of those risks and what their contigencies are to mitigate that risk?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: RailCornwall on May 08, 2021, 05:17:13 pm
Statement from Hitachi on Twitter

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E03_3mJWUAIdcgs.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 08, 2021, 05:23:18 pm
... and DOO regulations means I doubt you’ll see 387s running to Swindon in passenger service ....

Grr!  - I had overlooked that ...
Why would DOO be a problem?

I can appreciate that it takes time to organise replacement processes when must of your trains get taken out of service but I would hope that if this continues beyond today/tomorrow then GWR will attempt to run at least a skelton service rather than just telling passengers sorry but we can't do anything.

Yes, the post Graham quoted went on to say that procedures could be modified if there was an ongoing shortage, but not to expect it this weekend.

GWR were/are planning on using 387s to and from Cardiff for events, so new procedures would have to be in place for that, but obviously the need for that has yet to materialise.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 08, 2021, 05:34:16 pm
There would be a need for staff training to run guards (beyond Didcot)

No staff are assigned to that job nor would any yet have the knowledge/training for that route beyond Didcot.

Where do you find guards in a staff pool that aren’t assigned to that?
How long would it take to train them once located?

Weeks is the answer, even after you’ve licated suitable staff. Minths if you have to employ them.

I’m unsure why some think they can just be deployed. The RMT has a new head honcho, who has already stated he’s looking for a fight or two. So everything would need doing by the book and agreed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 06:38:51 pm
I have heard a report, that of the IETS checked for cracks that 80% have failed, and only 20% have passed.

I can NOT SUBSTANTIATE this report, can anyone confirm or deny ?

If true, this implies no effective service for MONTHS as repairs sound time consuming, and the remaining 20% will presumably also develop cracks.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bignosemac on May 08, 2021, 06:39:28 pm
Weeks is the answer, even after you’ve licated suitable staff. Minths if you have to employ them.

You are Officer Crabtree and I claim my £5. :P


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 08, 2021, 06:50:38 pm
Sources within control claim:

XC will run Bristol to Swindon shuttles.
West Country services will utilise 2+4 HSTs up to Reading or possibly into Paddington.
There will only be 10 IET sets available until at least Wednesday


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 08, 2021, 06:53:22 pm
Blimey - photographic evidence.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: devon_metro on May 08, 2021, 07:01:23 pm
Blimey - photographic evidence.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY

That picture is actually related to the issue identified a few weeks ago - the yaw damper. It was leaked onto a forum.

I read on said forum that >80% of GWR's units have failed the initial inspection with the new problem - source seems well informed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 08, 2021, 07:02:17 pm
Blimey - photographic evidence.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY

That photo doesn’t relate to the jacking point cracks.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 08, 2021, 07:07:44 pm
Confirmation from GWR in an email that the problem continues into tomorrow, with the same ‘do not travel’ message continuing


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 08, 2021, 07:10:40 pm
Confirmation from GWR in an email that the problem continues into tomorrow, with the same ‘do not travel’ message continuing

Will continue to at least Thursday


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 08, 2021, 07:12:12 pm
Blimey - photographic evidence.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY

That photo doesn’t relate to the jacking point cracks.

No that is last weeks cracks, quite different from this weeks cracks !


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 07:16:46 pm
Quote
Dear Graham

You may be aware that this morning Hitachi withdrew their long distance InterCity Express (IET) trains from service as a precautionary measure following routine inspection of the fleet overnight.  This has affected a number of rail companies including GWR, and Hitachi are now carrying out checks on all IET trains.

Services on all our long distance routes were therefore cancelled today and it is now clear that this will continue into tomorrow, Sunday 9 May. We are advising customers on long distance routes not to travel. Refunds will be provided, and customers should visit www.gwr.com for more information.  Our local and branch line services are unaffected, but we expect them to be busy given the current situation.

As soon as the trains have been checked and cleared, we will release them back into service.  However, until the inspections are complete, we will not know the impact on services next week. GWR managers and teams are therefore looking now to see how we might use the rest of our fleet to provide the best possible service across our routes.   

As things become clearer we will update you and we will keep customers informed of changes through our social media and on our website – www.gwr.com

We are grateful for anything you can do to help with that, and I will be back in touch as things develop.

Best wishes
 
Jane
Jane Jones | Head of Public Affairs | Great Western Railway


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 08, 2021, 07:31:48 pm
It’ll be interesting to see how the industry pulls together in this crisis as it looks like we’ll have several days (at least) of very limited availability.  Thank goodness this hasn’t happened during ‘normal’ times but it will still obviously be a major challenge.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 08, 2021, 08:50:28 pm
Quote
Dear Graham

You may be aware that this morning Hitachi withdrew their long distance InterCity Express (IET) trains from service as a precautionary measure following routine inspection of the fleet overnight.  This has affected a number of rail companies including GWR, and Hitachi are now carrying out checks on all IET trains.

Services on all our long distance routes were therefore cancelled today and it is now clear that this will continue into tomorrow, Sunday 9 May. We are advising customers on long distance routes not to travel. Refunds will be provided, and customers should visit www.gwr.com for more information.  Our local and branch line services are unaffected, but we expect them to be busy given the current situation.

As soon as the trains have been checked and cleared, we will release them back into service.  However, until the inspections are complete, we will not know the impact on services next week. GWR managers and teams are therefore looking now to see how we might use the rest of our fleet to provide the best possible service across our routes.   

As things become clearer we will update you and we will keep customers informed of changes through our social media and on our website – www.gwr.com

We are grateful for anything you can do to help with that, and I will be back in touch as things develop.

Best wishes
 
Jane
Jane Jones | Head of Public Affairs | Great Western Railway

I really dont envy her job right now. About the only consolation she must have is at least she isn't a member of Keir Starmer's Shadow Cabinet.

On a more serious note though, we have the ominous "GWR managers and teams are therefore looking now to see how we might use the rest of our fleet to provide the best possible service across our routes." Will this see rolling stock removed from local services to plug some of the main line gaps?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 09:10:57 pm

I really dont envy her job right now. About the only consolation she must have is at least she isn't a member of Keir Starmer's Shadow Cabinet.

On a more serious note though, we have the ominous "GWR managers and teams are therefore looking now to see how we might use the rest of our fleet to provide the best possible service across our routes." Will this see rolling stock removed from local services to plug some of the main line gaps?

I have started a separate thread to "headline" this for new arrivals at http://www.passenger.chat/24974 / helping Jane and Mark get the message out. Comments elsewhere that 67 out of 78 IETs are effected and there's a thought or speculation that Castles will be running up to Reading and Paddington on some services.   Yes - don't get trains from nowhere so there may be some thinning out - WHERE THAT CAN BE BORN, I hope!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 08, 2021, 09:13:13 pm
My understanding was that this problem was first flagged almost a fortnight ago, so one would imagine some sort of contingency  or at least advance communication could have been arranged.

Just to be clear we now know that this is an entirely different problem to the one flagged two weeks ago.  So not foreseeable in the way suggested. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyN on May 08, 2021, 10:01:03 pm
My understanding was that this problem was first flagged almost a fortnight ago, so one would imagine some sort of contingency  or at least advance communication could have been arranged.

Just to be clear we now know that this is an entirely different problem to the one flagged two weeks ago.  So not foreseeable in the way suggested. 
Looking at the picture https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY
 (https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/pictures-show-cracks-stopped-gwrs-5390963?fbclid=IwAR1zC0S7L04wpPwA3ueuKPjJDAfjIGqSCV5DlrY6qxFBffcFIaQ_MCDZ7QY) from the Plymouth Herald and the picture in Stuving's post (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Captain_Tom_Moore_Train_Naming.jpg)
Both problems appear to relate to the same casting which appears to be welded to the bodyshell so are related to the same weld joint.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 10:17:00 pm
Update from the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57042384), 22:00, Saturday 8th, 22:00

Quote
Two of the UK's busiest rail operators are warning passengers not to travel on Sunday because of disruption caused by the discovery of cracks in some high-speed trains.

Great Western Railway and London North Eastern Railway trains of the Hitachi 800 model were taken out of service for safety inspections on Saturday.
Hitachi has apologised and said it was investigating the issue.

The railway minister warned disruption was likely for a "prolonged period".

Chris Heaton-Harris said trains would be returned to service as "quickly as possible", but warned Great Western Railway services in particular were likely to face continued disruption.

Andrew Barr, CEO of Hitachi Rail, said the decision to withdraw the trains had been taken because of cracks found on the metal that linked the train's body with the underside of the train- known as the bogie.

All high-speed Great Western Railway services between London, Bristol, Cardiff and Penzance were cancelled on Saturday.

The operator said it expected the disruption to continue into Sunday and into next week.

Slight error in the BBC report - a very few service DID run on Saturday, but less than a dozen out of 78 IET trains in service.

This thread open for member's comment (other similar post is on a sticky thread which we're limiting to news updates for newcomers.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2021, 10:36:03 pm
This thread open for member's comment (other similar post is on a sticky thread which we're limiting to news updates for newcomers.

The article goes on to 

Quote
Disruption 'handled in the worst way'

Lorraine McConnon was due to take a train from Aberdeen to London King's Cross on Saturday morning. She had planned to travel from there to Gatwick Airport for an overnight stay before a flight to France on Sunday.

She said the situation was "being handled in the worst way" and that she "got less than 30 minutes' notice by email" of the cancellations, by which time she was already at the train station.

Lorraine travelled from Aberdeen to Glasgow by car with the aim of catching a train to Edinburgh, but says she missed a train suggested by staff while she was talking to them.

She hoped to catch a ScotRail train but feared it could now take "up to four changes" before she arrived at Gatwick.

"This is of course an essential journey for me or I wouldn't have booked," she says.

Rob James said his 84-year-old father only found out about the train cancellations once he'd arrived at London King's Cross to board a train to Inverness to visit him.

His father had been planning to stay with him because Rob's brother needed to self-isolate at their father's house in Bournemouth after arriving in the UK from Thailand.

Rob, who lives in John O'Groats, said: "My dad is at King's Cross and doesn't know what to do. He doesn't have a ticket to go back to Bournemouth now as his return ticket's not valid for a few weeks.

"He's trying to keep away from people and so is a bit loathe to seek help from staff in person.

"I haven't seen him in two years and now this… He's at one end of the country and I'm at the other. We were supposed to see each other in March and then Covid happened."

I'm sure that there have been things not handled in the best way possible, but I would not have like to play the hand GWR or LNER were dealt at dawn this morning.  Easy if your caught up in it to say "worst possible" but there is no magic solution; easy to ask "why not do x" but there is often reason "y" why not. Not that the passengers are actually suggesting "x" at all in the quote above.

Reading other issues too - people stuck in Cornwall at the end of a holiday, having to vacate their self-catering place for it to be readied for the next, and conversely people going away being promised a refund and asking if GWR will pay their accommodation cancellation charges too.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 04:04:39 am
Is any action being taken to obtain alternative rolling stock such as

Loco hauled coaches as used for charters, hauled by a modern freight loco, this might mean no heating, but better than no train as milder weather is here.

Loco hauled coaches and a heritage diesel loco, or preferably two in case of failures.

High Speed Train's (HST)s, I think that there are a few spare and not yet scrapped.

Are there any 442s around ? would have to be loco hauled of course as they are DC electric.

Main line passed steamers even. Tornado is the obvious choice as it is passed for 90 MPH.

And most radical of all, hire stock from preserved lines for use in the far West and/or branch lines. This would require some sort of emergency derogation to permit main line use.
For all the hysteria that this would produce, If a preserved steamer and four heritage coaches is safe to run from Minehead to Bishops Lydeard, does it actually become dangerous on one of the Cornish branches ?
The GWR steam railmotor could even be used on a branch.

That would free some Castles and turbos for use elsewhere.


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: infoman on May 09, 2021, 05:53:54 am
If anyone from our neck really needs to get to the capital,
we have the option of driving, use the coach, the long way round using SWT or maybe travel via Birmingham.

For those who have a FREE bus pass,maybe use the local bus's to maybe Oxford,Didcot and Reading then onward by train.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 06:22:22 am
Is any action being taken to obtain alternative rolling stock such as

Loco hauled coaches as used for charters, hauled by a modern freight loco, this might mean no heating, but better than no train as milder weather is here.


I fear you are encouraging a Gricerfest ... and if you start looking at alternative fuels, you have issues sourcing and loading coal, water, etc too.  There are some real rail enthusiasts amongst the various folks who'll be organising this who would love, I'm sure to follow the direction you're suggesting.  But there are rumours of some "never" turning into "hardly evers".


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 06:47:32 am
If anyone from our neck really needs to get to the capital,
we have the option of driving, use the coach, the long way round using SWT or maybe travel via Birmingham.

For those who have a FREE bus pass,maybe use the local bus's to maybe Oxford,Didcot and Reading then onward by train.

For today, though, trains replaced by buses Westbury to Salisbury, Exeter to Axminster and Gillingham to Salisbury.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 07:15:42 am
Added to sticky / newcomer thread:

Update - Sunday 9th May 2021 - Very few LONG DISTANCE trains running; Local and regional services running as normal.  Some adjustments being made to existing services and a few extras running, but a shortage of available trains limits what can be done.   Please postpone your long distance journey if you can.   And if travelling, please remember that the staff member you come across will be doing his / her level best to help ....

Feedback from customer facing staff suggests a difficult day yesterday - Staff doing their level best in very difficult circumstances, especially early on in the day as the situation developed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 07:38:15 am
From Journeycheck:

There will be a three return services available on the London Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central - Swansea route.

An extremely restricted service of two return services (only one of which will serve Cornwall) will operate on the London Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter St Davids - Plymouth - Penzance route.

The train service that would normally operate over the London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads route will only be operating as a limited shuttle service between Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads.

A revised train service will operate along the Reading - Oxford - Evesham - Worcester route using alternative carriages.

London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa will operate as a shuttle service between Swindon and Gloucester / Cheltenham Spa using alternative carriages.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 09, 2021, 07:48:41 am
Only 5 IET sets available today. I feel so sorry for all the staff at GWR, let down badly by the DfT and Hitachi.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 09:06:31 am
Is any action being taken to obtain alternative rolling stock such as

Loco hauled coaches as used for charters, hauled by a modern freight loco, this might mean no heating, but better than no train as milder weather is here.


I fear you are encouraging a Gricerfest ... and if you start looking at alternative fuels, you have issues sourcing and loading coal, water, etc too.  There are some real rail enthusiasts amongst the various folks who'll be organising this who would love, I'm sure to follow the direction you're suggesting.  But there are rumours of some "never" turning into "hardly evers".

Indeed. I would reduce the risks of enthusiasts crowding out ordinary passengers by NOT  announcing anything unusual. Steam haulage from Reading to Cornwall ? Certainly, but without any warning. SOME enthusiasts would find out and travel for the fun of it. Good luck to them, but the lack of notice would control numbers.
If the operation was repeated the next day, numbers would be reduced by some having already tried it.

Coal and water are easy. Water is available anywhere within a few fire hose lengths of a fire hydrant, or with parking for a tanker. Bagged coal can be delivered in advance to the platform and loaded by hand, or delivered to a bridge over the line and dropped by hand into the carefully positioned tender.
A dozen fit volunteers can each drop two bags of coal a minute. Twentyfour bags  bags a minute=600 kilos a minute or six tons in ten minutes.

Diesel fuel is even easier (whatever SWT may think !)

On a branch line, the coal and water use would be modest and easy to replenish during layovers at each end.

On the present emergency, forget about disabled access, have an accessible taxi on standby. Unless of course the hired heritage stock IS ACCESSIBLE, some is.

Use of steam in particular would be excellent public relations and would VERY SLIGHTLY mend the exceedingly tattered reputation of "the railway" And even non enthusiasts would welcome the fact that "at least they are doing something about the crisis" Rather than simply telling everyone to drive instead.

Heritage lines and charter operators have suffered badly from the pandemic and would no doubt welcome the income and the publicity from use of their assets. Send the hire bill to Hitachi.

"coal smoke cures Covid" Local mom exclusively reveals on mumsanbabiesnet.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 09:11:02 am
BBC Latest - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57042384

Quote
Travel disruption caused by the discovery of cracks in some high speed trains is expected to continue into next week, a rail industry group has warned.

Robert Nisbet, of the Rail Delivery Group, said initial inspections of 183 trains taken out of service on Saturday should conclude by the end of Sunday. But he warned that disruption was expected to "carry on for a few days".

Two of the UK's busiest rail firms are warning people not to travel on Sunday.

On Saturday Hitachi 800 trains operated by Great Western Railway and London North Eastern Railway trains were taken out of service for safety inspections.

Hitachi has apologised and said it was investigating the issue.

Mr Nisbet, whose organisation represents train operators and Network rail, apologised to anyone affected by the disruption.

He said rail firms were running as many services as possible, including rail replacement services, in addition to laying on extra staff at affected stations, relaxing ticket acceptance rules and offering compensation for delays.

Mr Nisbet told BBC Breakfast that it was "gratifying to see the speed" at which initial inspections were taking place. He said he understood that Hitachi engineers would complete these inspections by the end of Sunday.

But he cautioned that he was still "expecting some disruption to carry on for a few days".

He said: "It's impossible for me to say exactly how long that is going to take, we are obviously going through this as quickly as possible but we don't want to rush it.

"We want to sure that all of those trains are thoroughly inspected and cleared and are put into service when things are ready.

"But there may well be a knock on effect for some of those timetables into next week."


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 09:23:49 am
FAQs and broadgage answers thereto.

What about the lack of TPWS on a heritage loco ? Give a derogation or exemption for branch line use. Remembering that these are LESS BUSY than some heritage lines and are therefore very low risk.

What about the lack of Cab secure secure radio on heritage trains ? If portable equipment is not available then issue Inmarsat satellite telephones for emergency use, AND cellphones for routine use.

What about the lack of central door locking ? Have stewards to watch each door, volunteers from a preserved line could probably do this for free, for the fun of taking part in such a rare event.

What about lack of route knowledge ? Have a GWR driver on each train to advise WRT speed limits and signals. Actual driving to be done by someone familiar with the train.

What about emergency procedures ? Two guards, one from GWR and one familiar with the heritage stock being used.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 09, 2021, 09:33:06 am
FAQs and broadgage answers thereto.

What about the lack of TPWS on a heritage loco ? Give a derogation or exemption for branch line use. Remembering that these are LESS BUSY than some heritage lines and are therefore very low risk.

What about the lack of Cab secure secure radio on heritage trains ? If portable equipment is not available then issue Inmarsat satellite telephones for emergency use, AND cellphones for routine use.

What about the lack of central door locking ? Have stewards to watch each door, volunteers from a preserved line could probably do this for free, for the fun of taking part in such a rare event.

What about lack of route knowledge ? Have a GWR driver on each train to advise WRT speed limits and signals. Actual driving to be done by someone familiar with the train.

What about emergency procedures ? Two guards, one from GWR and one familiar with the heritage stock being used.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrIRr9arkM


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: CMRail on May 09, 2021, 09:50:46 am
FAQs and broadgage answers thereto.

What about the lack of TPWS on a heritage loco ? Give a derogation or exemption for branch line use. Remembering that these are LESS BUSY than some heritage lines and are therefore very low risk.

What about the lack of Cab secure secure radio on heritage trains ? If portable equipment is not available then issue Inmarsat satellite telephones for emergency use, AND cellphones for routine use.

What about the lack of central door locking ? Have stewards to watch each door, volunteers from a preserved line could probably do this for free, for the fun of taking part in such a rare event.

What about lack of route knowledge ? Have a GWR driver on each train to advise WRT speed limits and signals. Actual driving to be done by someone familiar with the train.

What about emergency procedures ? Two guards, one from GWR and one familiar with the heritage stock being used.



I highly doubt that any "emergency" stock that is available would be available for use on the network. Drivers won't have signed them, neither guards, engineers will he unable to deal with any problems if they arrive, they (possibly) won't have been cleared for most of the network and some will have major passenger safety concerns in terms of compliance with regulations. You then move into problems like depot space, working with the line speed, short platforms, COVID signage compliance etc etc.

If you are a TOC looking at this the difficulty of hiring stock would seem far to problematic.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 09, 2021, 09:52:11 am
FAQs and broadgage answers thereto.

What about the lack of TPWS on a heritage loco ? Give a derogation or exemption for branch line use. Remembering that these are LESS BUSY than some heritage lines and are therefore very low risk.

What about the lack of Cab secure secure radio on heritage trains ? If portable equipment is not available then issue Inmarsat satellite telephones for emergency use, AND cellphones for routine use.

What about the lack of central door locking ? Have stewards to watch each door, volunteers from a preserved line could probably do this for free, for the fun of taking part in such a rare event.

What about lack of route knowledge ? Have a GWR driver on each train to advise WRT speed limits and signals. Actual driving to be done by someone familiar with the train.

What about emergency procedures ? Two guards, one from GWR and one familiar with the heritage stock being used.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrIRr9arkM

You are not suggesting we enlist the help of the Walter Mitty/Dad's Army Alliance, surely...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 09, 2021, 09:56:08 am
Lets put the use of 'heritage' and 'charter' rolling stock into perspective; there is something like 80 class 800/x units with something like 570 passenger carrying vehicles.

For mainline running I doubt there are that many charter coaches available.  Heritage railways are unlikely to have mainline running certification, there stock being maintained for 'light railways' use with 25 mph running, no central door locking ect.

Locomotives are not too much of an issue to haul the couches if you could fine enough, although many heritage railways still use vacuum brakes finding enough locos which are vacuum fitted / working?  (when heritage railways have a visiting air brake only loco as a guest engine they will use one of their heritage locos as a translator)

The quickest solution is for Hitachi to complete the inspection of the trains as quickly as possible, once the severity of the problem is known then mitigation and control measures can be put in place


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 09:57:42 am
To use ALL my suggestions for alternative stock would indeed be verging into the realms of fantasy, and even I do not expect ALL suggestions to be followed.
I would however hope that SOME substitute rolling stock could be used, rather than simply saying "don't travel by train"

Use of steam, even on a small scale would be excellent PR.
IIRC only one return service is being offered to Penzance and one more to Plymouth. One extra service a day hauled by Tornado would be a significant improvement. (twelve coaches to Plymouth, at which the rear six will be detached to give reliable performance over the Devon banks)

Likewise the short term return of a few old High Speed Train's (HST)s would help, despite the "rush to scrap High Speed Train's (HST)s to prevent re-use" policy, a few are available.


More likely is to simply do nothing and tell people not to travel.
I suspect that significant lack of IETs will continue until Christmas.
GWR will be forever hoping that IET availability will "soon" improve and that alternative trains are not worth providing.

About the middle of next year an enquiry will be announced and produce the finding that "perhaps more should have been done, (WRT to alternative rolling stock) but no one realised how long the crisis would continue for"

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: nickswift99 on May 09, 2021, 09:59:38 am
Are things bad enough to bring out the Strategic Reserve?  Surely there must have been a plan to deal with all of the safety issues of a modern railway in the event of its use?

I expect there will be lots of activity around Box today…

In all seriousness, if you are a passenger or work for GWR you have my sympathy.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 09, 2021, 10:07:22 am
Are things bad enough to bring out the Strategic Reserve?  Surely there must have been a plan to deal with all of the safety issues of a modern railway in the event of its use?

Fun but unrelated fact - I've just discovered that it is easier to choke on my grapefruit than it is to choke on my cornflakes or my toast!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 10:09:08 am
Lets put the use of 'heritage' and 'charter' rolling stock into perspective; there is something like 80 class 800/x units with something like 570 passenger carrying vehicles.

For mainline running I doubt there are that many charter coaches available.  Heritage railways are unlikely to have mainline running certification, there stock being maintained for 'light railways' use with 25 mph running, no central door locking ect.

Locomotives are not too much of an issue to haul the couches if you could fine enough, although many heritage railways still use vacuum brakes finding enough locos which are vacuum fitted / working?  (when heritage railways have a visiting air brake only loco as a guest engine they will use one of their heritage locos as a translator)

The quickest solution is for Hitachi to complete the inspection of the trains as quickly as possible, once the severity of the problem is known then mitigation and control measures can be put in place

I very much doubt that enough heritage stock could be located to replace all the IETs. Every little helps though.
At present only ONE daily return to Penzance is being provided. Use of a railtour locomotive and main line certificated set of coaches could double this.

Not certain that "Hitachi inspecting the trains as quickly as possible" will help. We already know that all but 5 units are defective, and those 5 are presumably liable to develop similar cracks.
I am not yet aware of any plans to repair them and return to service.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 10:19:17 am
Are things bad enough to bring out the Strategic Reserve?  Surely there must have been a plan to deal with all of the safety issues of a modern railway in the event of its use?

I expect there will be lots of activity around Box today…

In all seriousness, if you are a passenger or work for GWR you have my sympathy.

Unfortunately, the strategic reserve is now operated by a public/private partnership, day to day operation being in the hands of the brother in law of a Mr hiitachii.
They greatly modernised the strategic reserve by filling it with bi mode IETs, these being the new standard type of UK train.
Last year when cracks were found on IETs in service, this was kept secret and the cracked units swopped over, in secret for good units to avoid penalties and loss of face.
They have now run out of good units and the strategic reserve is full of cracked IETs.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 10:36:41 am
From the Yorkshire Post (https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/hitachi-class-800-train-fault-lner-azumas-still-affected-but-transpennine-express-and-hull-trains-units-passed-safe-3229756):

Quote
Hull Trains confirmed yesterday that its five Class 802s had been inspected and returned to service.

Transpennine Express's fleet of 19 Nova 1 trains, which are also Class 802, are affected and the operator phased them back into service late on Saturday after their checks were completed.

These are very recent units, I note ...



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 10:51:12 am
Are things bad enough to bring out the Strategic Reserve?  Surely there must have been a plan to deal with all of the safety issues of a modern railway in the event of its use?
They have now run out of good units and the strategic reserve is full of cracked IETs.

Strategic steam locomotive reserves were kept in Sweden, Finland and Russia, but I think all are now gone. Gauge and loading gauge problems w.r.t. bringing them to the UK. 

In searching, I discovered "To have in supply in case of a disaster, the US has a strategic reserve of petroleum. China has a similar repository of pork. Canada, of course, has a backup inventory of maple syrup."  What is the calorific value of Maple Syrup as a fuel?  Is it sustainable and efficient?  Am I asking a sticky question?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ray951 on May 09, 2021, 10:51:48 am
I see that there are some EMU shuttles between Didcot and Swindon today, I assume these are class 387. 0946 and 1105 from Didcot are a couple of examples.
Well done GWR and glad that weeks of training wasn't required as some have predicted.
Although as I type this I see that the 1105 is now canceled , hopefully I haven't posted this too soon. :)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 09, 2021, 11:03:15 am

Quote
Disruption 'handled in the worst way'

Lorraine McConnon was due to take a train from Aberdeen to London King's Cross on Saturday morning. She had planned to travel from there to Gatwick Airport for an overnight stay before a flight to France on Sunday.

She said the situation was "being handled in the worst way" and that she "got less than 30 minutes' notice by email" of the cancellations, by which time she was already at the train station.

Lorraine travelled from Aberdeen to Glasgow by car with the aim of catching a train to Edinburgh, but says she missed a train suggested by staff while she was talking to them.

She hoped to catch a ScotRail train but feared it could now take "up to four changes" before she arrived at Gatwick.

"This is of course an essential journey for me or I wouldn't have booked," she says.

Rob James said his 84-year-old father only found out about the train cancellations once he'd arrived at London King's Cross to board a train to Inverness to visit him.

His father had been planning to stay with him because Rob's brother needed to self-isolate at their father's house in Bournemouth after arriving in the UK from Thailand.

Rob, who lives in John O'Groats, said: "My dad is at King's Cross and doesn't know what to do. He doesn't have a ticket to go back to Bournemouth now as his return ticket's not valid for a few weeks.

"He's trying to keep away from people and so is a bit loathe to seek help from staff in person.

"I haven't seen him in two years and now this… He's at one end of the country and I'm at the other. We were supposed to see each other in March and then Covid happened."

I'm sure that there have been things not handled in the best way possible, but I would not have like to play the hand GWR or LNER were dealt at dawn this morning.  Easy if your caught up in it to say "worst possible" but there is no magic solution; easy to ask "why not do x" but there is often reason "y" why not. Not that the passengers are actually suggesting "x" at all in the quote above.

Reading other issues too - people stuck in Cornwall at the end of a holiday, having to vacate their self-catering place for it to be readied for the next, and conversely people going away being promised a refund and asking if GWR will pay their accommodation cancellation charges too.


I also wonder what the best possible way to handle this would be. I haven't come up with anything yet. Let's face it - this is a pretty serious problem without a ready-made Plan B. That at least makes PR reasonably easy, although that certainly won't stop people complaining. The worst possible way to handle it, whatever Miss McConnon may think, would have been to keep quiet, continue to run trains with a possible fault until they could be inspected and fixed one at a time, while keeping fingers crossed and hoping disaster doesn't strike.

Hopefully, someone at GWR is, as we speak, looking at what possible skellington service can be cobbled together, and skilled technicians at Hitachi's various plants are carrying out repairs in a fashion determined by engineers, metallurgists and sundry other scientists in Japan over what will have been a very long working weekend.

The broadgage contingency plan could be put into action within a few months, once all buffet cars have been inspected for welds, brakes, and a sufficiency of port.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 09, 2021, 11:15:14 am
I see that there are some EMU shuttles between Didcot and Swindon today, I assume these are class 387. 0946 and 1105 from Didcot are a couple of examples.
Well done GWR and glad that weeks of training wasn't required as some have predicted.
Although as I type this I see that the 1105 is now canceled , hopefully I haven't posted this too soon. :)

There are a couple of BRI-DID returns running too....an IET I’m assuming?

The 1105 DID-SWI is a service to BRI (arr 1200), so I certainly doubt this was even a 387


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eightf48544 on May 09, 2021, 11:17:29 am
I see that there are some EMU shuttles between Didcot and Swindon today, I assume these are class 387. 0946 and 1105 from Didcot are a couple of examples.
Well done GWR and glad that weeks of training wasn't required as some have predicted.
Although as I type this I see that the 1105 is now canceled , hopefully I haven't posted this too soon. :)


Haven't GWR Run 387s to Cardiff for the rugby? A 12 coach train would mop up the crowds!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 09, 2021, 11:20:54 am
Not yet, have they? It is their intention eventually, I agree


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 11:47:08 am
From the Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-trains-found-to-have-cracks-3229781)

Quote
ScotRail said a “small number” of its class 385 electric trains – which run on routes such as the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line – were affected.

Some of the fleet of 70 Hitachi-built trains, which are less than three years old, are undergoing further checks.

and

Quote
Disruption to ScotRail services today has been avoided by a strike by conductors and ticket examiners called by the Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT), which has forced the cancellation of most trains.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: paul7575 on May 09, 2021, 12:42:26 pm
I think the 12 car 387 to Cardiff is definitely an approved and accepted use of them, from a track access point of view, but it’s not at all clear if the necessary staff training has ever successfully taken place.  Late evening empty stock services for route knowledge training were in the timetable at one stage, possibly from Dec 2020, but I suspect that and associated guard training may have been curtailed by subsequent events…

Paul


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: CyclingSid on May 09, 2021, 12:45:49 pm
Does anybody know what the situation is with units that appeared to be sitting in Eastleigh a few weeks ago?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 01:15:45 pm
Does anybody know what the situation is with units that appeared to be sitting in Eastleigh a few weeks ago?

Might there be a couple (!) of 345s somewhere accessible to Paddington and not otherwise needed until next year?  To take over the 387 diagrams to places like Newbury and Didcot, with 387s then running services beyond Didcot even as far as Cardiff?  Known types and in the area already ...

There are also 11 stored, unallocated class 153s.   They would need derogations to run on their own or in groups, but perhaps they could come back short term to allow a temporary reverse cascade - stock for Swindon - Cheltenham and Swindon - Temple Meads shuttles, for example.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 09, 2021, 01:21:18 pm
At last...a sensible, potentially workable suggestion!

Though I doubt they’d run west of Reading, a Turbo or two might be able to be found for that.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 01:26:19 pm
At last...a sensible, potentially workable suggestion!

Thank you.

I will point out that I edited my original post while you were commenting / not sure how easily the stored 153s could be turned on, and that was NOT what you were commenting on.   RichardB probably not thrilled at the idea of 3 x 153 on St Ives, 4 x 153 on Falmouth, and a couple on either Newquay or Looe. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 09, 2021, 01:28:56 pm
I expect Hitachi (and others) are peering under all A-trains right across the world. They are all made much the same way, and the issue seen here is closely linked to both the design of the bogie mountings (bolsters) onto the body shells and the manufacturing processes. This is increasingly true of trains (and of a lot of other things too) as production has shifted to factories using robots and processes that need to be designed together with the end product.

There are reports of a few (latest is 9 out of 70) Scotrail class 385s failing this inspection, but so far no class 395s (which are of course much older). I've not heard anything reported from the rest of the world either - yet. For 80xs, the older fleets contain more units failing inspection, and the oldest are GWR's. That is what you'd expect if fatigue is involved, and that is the usual cause of cracking in aluminium-alloy structures. Of course that only answers one kind of "why"; for others the answer might be errors in the requirement, the design in several areas, or the manufacturing process (for example).

One of the things that should become clear (to Hitachi, at last) from wider A-train inspections is whether the problem can be narrowed down to a time period or something about how or by whom things were made. One interesting point is that most of the body shell is made from extruded "planks" supplied by Kobe Steel. Now those parts are not implicated at all in this, but Kobe Steel does have a bit of a reputation, and that involved supplying substandard materials and parts, and in alloys as well as steel. So, who made that bolster part (or parts)? Did Hitachi buy that in from Kobe Steel too?

This sort of common liability to a failure, which can ground large numbers of units, isn't restricted to a class or type. If it can affect A-trains as a whole, or even a large fraction of them, then other makers' families could have the same kind of commonality. Even in the past, we might have seen that with a standard bogie design; the same thing is as likely to affect any part of a train from now on. From that point of view, any reduction in the number of train makers in the UK market could be a risk (see under "resilience").

IEP was conceived as a common design for anywhere across the country, so in that sense it courted such a risk. But it also introduced Hitachi as a domestic supplier (this was their strategic plan, piloted by the class 395 programme). Since then the UK market has also gained CAF and Stadler; both marginal before that. So it turns out that we are not now looking at three suppliers, or fewer if mergers are allowed, as looked likely about ten years ago. But nothing guarantees that all the suppliers will get orders - that's down to how well they compete to get them.

So, when the decision that IEP should be a single nationwide design was made, was this resilience issue considered? I've had a quick look at the Foster report, which does not mention the subject. But then IEP was conceived as a replacement for the High Speed Train's (HST)s, and they were a nationwide common design. So I expect it was not seen as a separate concern. And it is at core an engineering issue, so should not be decided in advance on political or administrative grounds. And there, the approach was to push all liability onto the supplier for the full 27.5 years of the contract -  the ultimate in incentivisation - removing all need for the customers to consider reliability issues.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 09, 2021, 01:35:27 pm
The problem in running alternative stock on lines that don't currently run these is staff training.

Rightly, there are training requirements/knowledge that has to be maintained. Even if you can locate these staff from elsewhere, they all have to be trained - and that will take weeks. Until Hitachi agree that the problem will keep their trains off the rails for that length of time, realistically, TOCs (and the DFT who would be funding this training under the ERMA) won't agree to it happening....


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 09, 2021, 01:45:52 pm
Thanks stuving for this extensive explanation. 

And there, the approach was to push all liability onto the supplier for the full 27.5 years of the contract -  the ultimate in incentivisation - removing all need for the customers to consider reliability issues.


This indeed is the modern fallacy, transfer all the risk to the supplier in the contract.  Works fine until you realise those bits of the risk that can't be transferred in practice.  Like not having any trains to run a service with.  The operators could seek damages for lost income which would cost Hitachi a huge amount if the court agreed, but there would still be no trains.   


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 02:03:24 pm
Most press releases and other statements seem to imply that disruption will be over in a week or two at the most.
Does anyone here believe this ?

AFAIK, all GWR IETS have now been checked and all but 5 have failed such checks. So statements about "working day and night to check trains" are irrelevant.
It seems probable that those 5 will develop cracks.
I am not aware of ANY units yet being repaired.
Nor am I aware of any proposed timetable for repairs.

Repairs to structural aluminium are a considerable challenge, and remember that if a unit is stopped for ONE crack, that ALL similar parts should presumably be repaired/replaced/strengthened on a precautionary  basis. No point in repairing the parts above one side of one bogie only for the other side to crack after a week in service.

How long will this take ? for 20 repairs to a 5 car unit and for 36 repairs to a 9 car unit.
My guestimate is two months for the first train whilst the technique is refined, and then one train a week thereafter.
Say a couple of years.
All the (over) complex electronic equipment would have to be disconnected or removed before electric welding. Some probably wont work afterwards.

It might actually be quicker to scrap the body shells and build new improved ones, not scrap the whole unit of course, engines, traction motors, cab equipment, and internal fit out would be re used.
The drawback of this, apart from cost, would be that TPTB might declare them to be "new trains" rather than repaired existing trains. Whole new approval process ?



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 09, 2021, 02:13:14 pm

The drawback of this, apart from cost, would be that TPTB might declare them to be "new trains" rather than repaired existing trains. Whole new approval process ?


That's one of the reasons it won't happen.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 02:25:31 pm
Silly question ... I know they're not easy to couple and uncouple within the sets, but is there any possibility of making up some more good ones by switching a few carriages around?   Sure, chances are they they, too, will need attention in time but to my logic if there are five totally good, there's probably quite a few more with good carriages to mix and match. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 09, 2021, 02:27:15 pm
At last...a sensible, potentially workable suggestion!

Thank you.

I will point out that I edited my original post while you were commenting / not sure how easily the stored 153s could be turned on, and that was NOT what you were commenting on.   RichardB probably not thrilled at the idea of 3 x 153 on St Ives, 4 x 153 on Falmouth, and a couple on either Newquay or Looe. 

Still better than no trains though, if the worst case scenario comes to pass. The key thing with the Cornish Branch Lines is to ensure that appropriate capacity is both provided and ramped up to the high summer peak, particularly if the much anticipated bumper staycation crowds materialise and there are little or no through trains to help take the edge off. As long as Richard and his excellent team get that, I am sure they can make it work.

In overall terms though, it seems pretty clear from comment so far that we are all holding our breath to see how long the Hitachi trains are out of action for.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 09, 2021, 03:17:48 pm
Silly question ... I know they're not easy to couple and uncouple within the sets, but is there any possibility of making up some more good ones by switching a few carriages around?   Sure, chances are they they, too, will need attention in time but to my logic if there are five totally good, there's probably quite a few more with good carriages to mix and match. 

Yes. In theory, and subject to limitations. The requirement stated:
Quote
TS1977 It must be possible to add Intermediate IEP Vehicles to an IEP Unit subject to the IEP Unit still being no greater than the maximum length identified in TS223.

TS1979 It must be possible to remove Intermediate IEP Vehicles from an IEP Unit from any intermediate position subject to the Intermediate IEP Vehicles being removed being of the  correct Functional Vehicle Type and the IEP Unit remaining at least the minimum length.

TS1980 The design of the IEP Units must ensure the time to add or remove Intermediate IEP Vehicle is minimised and is in any event no greater than 8 hours.

TS1589 With regards to IEP Unit reconfiguration it must be possible to reconfigure software and control systems within 15 minutes when Intermediate IEP Vehicles have been added, removed or replaced.

Obviously TS1979 doesn't make much sense. But swapping vehicles of the same subtype between units to keep them running is certainly possible. It may even have been the reason for that bit of the requirement.

Note that subtypes are pretty specific. A 5-car has five different subtypes. In a 9-car, there are two MES2s but the rest are all different. In some cases the difference may be just internal, so a train with those swapped ought to still run OK - again, that's in theory.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 09, 2021, 03:23:03 pm
Sources within control claim:

XC will run Bristol to Swindon shuttles.
West Country services will utilise 2+4 HSTs up to Reading or possibly into Paddington.
There will only be 10 IET sets available until at least Wednesday

A number of Bristol to Swindon shuttles from XC have now appeared on Real Time Trains for tomorrow (Monday 10th).  Also includes a couple running from Plymouth and Paignton.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 03:25:51 pm
A number of Bristol to Swindon shuttles from XC have now appeared on Real Time Trains for tomorrow (Monday 10th).  Also includes a couple running from Plymouth and Paignton.

Sensible.

Will the accept GroupSave  ;D ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 09, 2021, 04:01:24 pm
LNER reactivating the Class 91 and Mark IVs it has had stored for service from Tuesday, rather than the planned June 7.

https://twitter.com/richard_rail/status/1391402866863116289?s=21


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 09, 2021, 04:30:17 pm
GWR "Do not travel message" on the website now officially extended to Monday.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 05:46:13 pm
GWR "Do not travel message" on the website now officially extended to Monday.

Though the most prominent sections on the website still refer to the various special offers and other adverts.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 09, 2021, 06:52:19 pm

Details of XC Swindon Bristol shuttle now an their website
https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/media/5004/mon-10may21-swibri-public.pdf


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 09, 2021, 07:13:25 pm
if you're really observant, you may have spotted that the close-up of the crack from last week shows a different shaped bolster from the one in the picture I posted yesterday. That's because the failures last week were all on intermediate vehicles, whereas the one in yesterday's photo clearly isn't. I think that's what determines the difference, rather than some other factor - going by some of Alamy's pictures of GWR 800s (which of course I can't snip a detailed bit out of). The ones on end vehicles are a few centimetres deeper at the end the yaw damper bracket bolts onto, though not at the jacking point (which is just as well, really).

These deeper bolsters do seem to have more metal in the area that cracked, though it's hard to say if that's relevant without a better grasp of its shape in three dimensions.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 08:26:34 pm
Quote
Dear Graham
 
I promised to keep you updated on the situation with our long distance trains.  Hitachi investigations continue and they are working hard to put remedial plans in place.  For now however, it is clear that we will need to operate without the vast majority of our Intercity Express Trains tomorrow.
 
Our advice therefore remains not to travel on our long distance routes.  Refunds can be claimed through our website www.gwr.com, or tickets can be used for travel on services later this week or at the weekend.
 
Local, branch and regional services are unaffected.
 
We are working on options that will help us to operate a limited long distance timetable.  It will be much reduced, but we are looking at every option to see what can be done to keep customers moving.
 
This includes looking at trains that might be available and can be moved from other parts of the country, including Charter trains, using buses for some journeys, agreeing ticket acceptance on other train services and making the best use of our other fleets including extending the use of our Thames Valley electric fleet to Swindon.
 
Details of the revised timetable will be entered into journey planners by Network Rail and should be in place from midnight tonight, we will also provide updates on our website www.gwr.com  We have brought more staff into stations and onto our social media platforms to help with advice and we will do our best to keep everyone informed.
 
We are very grateful for the messages of support for our teams as they work to put new arrangements in place.  It will be challenging and it is likely to mean that those trains that are in service are busy.
 
As soon as we have more news from Hitachi on when the IETs will be back in service we will update you.
 
Best wishes
 
Mark


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 09, 2021, 08:36:40 pm
All public statements or press releases  still seem to be concentrating on the need "to check trains as quickly as possible in order that services may resume" or other wording that implies the same thing.

No public mention of the need for REPAIRS or any suggestion that this could be time consuming.

Checks on the GWR fleet have now shown an almost 100% failure rate.

Yesterday=10 units available
Today=5 units available.
Tomorrow= reportedly 3 units available.
With no repairs yet planned that suggests zero availability within a couple more days.

Extra rolling  stock ? no word on this AFAIK.
"Disruption could continue until Thursday" seems to be the message, no hint of "into next year" which I consider probable, or "for several years" which I consider to be possible.

EDIT TO ADD the above press release does mention "remedial works" but with no hint that these could be protracted.
And it also says that the "great majority of the fleet will not be available tomorrow" which is true, but does sort of imply that it might get get better the day after tomorrow.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 08:50:21 pm
EDIT TO ADD the above press release does mention "remedial works" but with no hint that these could be protracted.

And it also says that the "great majority of the fleet will not be available tomorrow" which is true, but does sort of imply that it might get get better the day after tomorrow.

I suspect the coming few days will make it clearer.   Bearing in mind that this hadn't even started when any 9-to-5, Monday-to-Friday types who may be involved were last at work.

I have update the "sticky" thread at http://www.passenger.chat/24974 ... and that's the one that Facebook points at.  I will be trying to keep it up to date with "what's happening tomorrow".


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 09, 2021, 09:07:37 pm
From the Department for Transport (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-calls-on-industry-for-action-to-resolve-rail-disruption) - news story today.

Quote
Government calls on industry for action to resolve rail disruption

government requests Hitachi set out a comprehensive safety inspection plan, and longer-term repair strategy for damaged Class 800 fleet

rail industry asked to deliver a rolling stock strategy to provide additional capacity on network, and a rail replacement schedule

passengers warned disruption expected to continue for some time


The government has asked the rail industry to urgently set out a comprehensive plan to resolve prolonged disruption following the discovery of cracks in Class 800 Series Hitachi trains.

The vast majority of GWR’s fleet and a significant number of LNER and TransPennine Express trains have been taken off the network to undergo a full and rigorous inspection, after checks of the Hitachi fleet early on Saturday (8 May 2021) morning first identified cracks on part of the chassis of some trains.

To combat the expected continued delays, Rail Minister Chris Heaton-Harris has requested a comprehensive plan from Hitachi to identify the extent of the cracking and whether carriages can still run safely with them.

To support this, Hitachi will also be expected to set out a comprehensive inspection regime guaranteeing that safety is prioritised, building on the work that is already underway.

The independent safety regulator, the Office of Rail and Road (ORR), will be closely involved in overseeing this work, providing confidence to staff and passengers, while also helping to ensure any issues are rapidly resolved.

The rail industry has also been asked to set out a plan for how it will manage capacity, by moving rolling stock and proposing where alternative trains can be sourced. These will be brought into service as safely and quickly as possible.

The industry has also been asked to deliver a clear rail replacement schedule, including additional bus and coach services that will be in place to help alleviate disruption.

Rail Minister Chris Heaton Harris said:

Today (9 May 2021) I have directed the rail industry to urgently set out a comprehensive plan to ensure services can safely resume as soon as possible.

I expect operators to explore all options for replacement services to help people complete their journeys, and have asked Hitachi for a safety inspection plan, as well as longer term repair strategy.

Our focus is to ensure trains are returned to service as quickly as possible, once they are fully approved as safe. Only then can we start to rebuild a reliable and punctual timetable for passengers.

I also want to thank passengers for their patience during what could be a significant period of prolonged disruption, likely to continue for some time.

The government has also commissioned Hitachi to present an initial assessment of when they expect problems to be resolved.

The Rail Minister called an urgent meeting with MPs today, to keep them fully updated on progress, with representatives from Hitachi and the train operators.

The department is working closely with operators to determine what level of train service is able to run into next week and are doing everything possible to minimise the impact on passengers, although significant disruption is expected throughout next week.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 09, 2021, 09:36:18 pm
I'm looking forward to hearing GWR's/the railway's plans for assisting those who have been stranded away from home after holidays or other trips which began before this chaos started, and compensating those whose travel/holiday plans now lie in ruins.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 09, 2021, 09:49:03 pm
I just can’t stop thinking about all those Mk3 and Mk4 coaches that have already been scrapped. How they are needed now.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 09, 2021, 09:49:23 pm
I'm looking forward to hearing GWR's/the railway's plans for assisting those who have been stranded away from home after holidays or other trips which began before this chaos started, and compensating those whose travel/holiday plans now lie in ruins.


I am sure they will compensate them at Hitachi's expense presumably.  This could be very expensive for Hitachi.  Their reputation could be seriously damaged as well.  


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ellendune on May 09, 2021, 10:11:09 pm
Comment in from punter in the Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/rail-safety-cancellation-passengers-hitachi-b1844152.html)

Quote
While delays are a nuisance nothing quite spoils your day like your carriage splitting into three at 100mph


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: rower40 on May 09, 2021, 10:55:04 pm
Economies of Scale vs. All-eggs-in-one-basket; discuss.

Who'd've thought the humble Voyager would come to the rescue?  That is, until the English Channel starts over-topping the Dawlish sea defences again.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 09, 2021, 11:02:04 pm
A report on BBC South Today tonight, apparently based on talking to GWR rather then Hitachi, said the phase 2 cracks are not seen as compromising structural integrity. The concern is that a bit might drop off a moving train, and work is going on to work out what the implications of that would be and how it might be prevented.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 10, 2021, 06:18:55 am
387s to Swindon in passenger service from Tuesday possibly.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 06:37:26 am
What happens if the relevant Hitachi subsidiary (Agility trains ?) decide that the cost of repairs and of compensation is so great that bankruptcy is he only option ?

Presumably Her Majesty's Government (HMG) would have to bail them out with some form of emergency grant/bung/loan/subsidy ?
Or let them go bust and be stuck with a load of secondhand and not much good trains ?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 10, 2021, 06:42:41 am
I'm looking forward to hearing GWR's/the railway's plans for assisting those who have been stranded away from home after holidays or other trips which began before this chaos started, and compensating those whose travel/holiday plans now lie in ruins.


When it comes to today, just about all routes have a service so it shouldn’t be a problem. Perhaps a handful of stations not served, Pewsey springs to mind.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: REVUpminster on May 10, 2021, 06:55:18 am
These trains are part of the Hitachi A train family and Javelins (395) have been running for 9 years with seemingly no problem.
Lets hope the problem is not at Newton Aycliffe or factories in Italy.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 07:03:15 am
A report on BBC South Today tonight, apparently based on talking to GWR rather then Hitachi, said the phase 2 cracks are not seen as compromising structural integrity. The concern is that a bit might drop off a moving train, and work is going on to work out what the implications of that would be and how it might be prevented.

I suspect that this fiasco has now had such widespread publicity, that running "cracked, defective, and possibly dangerous trains" will be regarded as unacceptable by the public, and more importantly by the RMT. Even if the actual risk is negligible.

Publicity will only increase for several reasons.
Firstly the elections are now over and arguing over the consequences of the results is now yesterdays news.
Secondly, the pandemic is easing, and is now also yesterdays news.
And finally WEEKDAY trains are now affected which is much more newsworthy than weekend disruption. And the "promises*" made about a prompt return to normal have not been kept.

*Most members of these forums will be aware that no such promises were actually made. The statements released were actually very carefully worded so as to IMPLY a short term problem but without actually promising anything.
"Disruption could continue into Sunday" was a good example of this. The man in the street would understand this to mean "not beyond Sunday" but of course "beyond Sunday" could include "for the rest of this year"


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 10, 2021, 08:42:42 am
Richard Clinnick on Twitter saying that only 3 of the 93 Class 80x are available for traffic today

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1391654105752408064?s=21

Edit to add that 10 of Scotrail’s Class 385 have also been found to have cracks. Full service running with som short formations
https://twitter.com/richard_rail/status/1391670004517593088?s=21


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ray951 on May 10, 2021, 08:57:29 am
What happens if the relevant Hitachi subsidiary (Agility trains ?) decide that the cost of repairs and of compensation is so great that bankruptcy is he only option ?

Presumably HMG would have to bail them out with some form of emergency grant/bung/loan/subsidy ?
Or let them go bust and be stuck with a load of secondhand and not much good trains ?
I think this is a very interesting point. If the repairs turn out to be expensive and/or take a lengthy period of time causing Agility Trains (or whoever the current owners are) to fail then the trains could be nationailised and the 'expensive' PFI contract scrapped. Or worse that Agility Trains survive and they use the remaining years of the contract to recover the costs of the epsiode. We know how with these PFI type contracts a lot of the profit is based on the fact that customers will need to make changes to the contract in future and those changes are always expensive.

We also need to consider the finances of GWR and First Group; can they afford to have effectively no income but to still pay out staff and overhead costs, which I assume most make up at least 50% of the cost of running a TOC? Of course these costs could be covered by the contract, I doubt it, but if they are covered then the point above becomes even more valid.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 10, 2021, 09:44:13 am
We also need to consider the finances of GWR and First Group; can they afford to have effectively no income but to still pay out staff and overhead costs, which I assume most make up at least 50% of the cost of running a TOC? Of course these costs could be covered by the contract, I doubt it, but if they are covered then the point above becomes even more valid.

Historically, I understand TOC costs were 1/3 stock lease, 1/3 network rail charges, 1/3 staff


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 10, 2021, 09:50:54 am
The GWR is operating under EMA until at least June this year.

‘Under the GWR EMA, the DfT waives GWR’s revenue, cost and contingent capital risk and pays GWR a fixed management fee with the potential for a small performance-based fee.’

Does this affect how things work under these circumstances?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 10, 2021, 09:58:44 am
Does this affect how things work under these circumstances?

Very much so.

And it should mean the industry is better able to be flexible when it comes to things like the extra XC shuttle services running.  In ‘normal’ times there are several reasons why that couldn’t happen, so in many respects this is the best time for something like this to happen.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 10, 2021, 10:55:23 am
These trains are part of the Hitachi A train family and Javelins (395) have been running for 9 years with seemingly no problem.
Lets hope the problem is not at Newton Aycliffe or factories in Italy.

I'm pretty sure that attaching this bolster part to the body floor panels has always been done at Kosado. A full body shell welding facility was commissioned at Newton Aycliffe in March; before that all their body shells arrived complete. Pistoia assembled 802 bodies from flat (ish) side, floor, and roof panels sent from Japan. And I've found a picture that shows that!

There are a couple of relevant articles that covered the start of production of 802s in Pistoia, in Rail Technology Magazine (by Berry Sas of Hitachi, 9/5/2017) (https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/iep-fleet-work-moves-forward-at-hitachis-pistoia-plant-ahead-of-uk-delivery) and (Key) Modern railways (Keith Fender, 22/6/2017) (https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/bi-modes-production), and also Rail Engineer (Andy Milne, 4/7/2017) (https://www.railengineer.co.uk/take-a-look-around-hitachis-pistoia-train-production-plant/). the important picture is in the second of those (and is by Keith Fender):
(https://fft-keymodernrailways.b-cdn.net/sites/modernrailways/files/styles/jumbo/public/imported/2020-03-24/img_77-1_2.jpg?itok=txDloSnS)
Flatpack kit: parts for train seven (No 802006).

These body panels are stir-fryfriction stir welded at Kosado from extruded alloy sections made by Kobe Steel (see below). In the picture are sides for intermediate and driving trailer cars (the shorter ones), and floors. If you look at the floor panels you can just see the bolsters peeping out at the far end. Assuming the description is correct, and these are as supplied from Japan, their attachment wasn't done in Italy. What Ansaldo did have there already was a very very long MIG welding rig, used to make the aluminium alloy bodies of ETR1000s.  For more about this, and pictures, see the articles.

Looking at he near ends of those body panels, you can just about see the cell structure between the inner and outer skins. Kobe Steel have some pictures that show this more clearly:
(https://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/releases/2014/__icsFiles/artimage/2014/11/25/c9j_tp14/141125_01.jpg)(https://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/releases/2014/__icsFiles/artimage/2014/11/25/c9j_tp14/141125_02.jpg)

And attached is an illustration from a Hitachi presentation on the class 395 project, though it's a generic A-train as you can see. These extrusions are all custom designed for their location in the body shell, and have two small projecting strips for welding to their neighbour. FSW can only really be used for nearly flat and straight butt joints, so presumably MIG is used for the rest - including attaching the bolsters (though that depends on what they are made of, which I still don't know).

MIG = Metal Inert Gas, which doesn't tell you it's arc welding and that the metal melts (the tungsten in TIG doesn't).

FSW = Friction Stir Welding, a British invention of 30 years ago, but a speciality of Hitachi (who make the machines that do it). See Wikipedia for details, but this picture does about 60% of the explaining:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Anand-FSW-Figure1-B.jpg)
Fricton stir welding (Wikipedia) By Anandwiki at English Wikipedia, Creative Commons license. (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en)




Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 10:59:49 am
Confirmation from GWR in an email that the problem continues into tomorrow, with the same ‘do not travel’ message continuing

Another example of a carefully worded message that IMPLIES a short term problem but without actually promising anything.
As we are now well into Monday, which was "tomorrow" at the time of the message, does anyone really expect a normal service on Tuesday ?

I expect an announcement, statement or press release warning that "disruption could continue into Tuesday"


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 10, 2021, 11:03:30 am
Confirmation from GWR in an email that the problem continues into tomorrow, with the same ‘do not travel’ message continuing

Another example of a carefully worded message that IMPLIES a short term problem but without actually promising anything.
As we are now well into Monday, which was "tomorrow" at the time of the message, does anyone really expect a normal service on Tuesday ?

I expect an announcement, statement or press release warning that "disruption could continue into Tuesday"

Part of the email sent to grahame above states.....
Quote
We are working on options that will help us to operate a limited long distance timetable.  It will be much reduced, but we are looking at every option to see what can be done to keep customers moving.
 
This includes looking at trains that might be available and can be moved from other parts of the country, including Charter trains, using buses for some journeys, agreeing ticket acceptance on other train services and making the best use of our other fleets including extending the use of our Thames Valley electric fleet to Swindon.

I think this would imply that GWR are looking at least into the medium-term future.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 10, 2021, 11:15:21 am
There’s an ECS move in the system operating from Crewe to Laira.

It’s operated by LSL. No idea what the consist is but this could be hired in charter stock??


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 11:23:50 am
There’s an ECS move in the system operating from Crewe to Laira.

It’s operated by LSL. No idea what the consist is but this could be hired in charter stock??

One might hope. A single charter set would be of limited help, but something is better than nothing.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 10, 2021, 11:38:41 am
What happens if the relevant Hitachi subsidiary (Agility trains ?) decide that the cost of repairs and of compensation is so great that bankruptcy is he only option ?

Presumably HMG would have to bail them out with some form of emergency grant/bung/loan/subsidy ?
Or let them go bust and be stuck with a load of secondhand and not much good trains ?

The answer may lie in the GWR MARA (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwizwoaU8b7wAhUVUhUIHXiABEMQFjADegQIBhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F355606%2Fgreat-western-iep-network-master-agreement.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1goNr_FxR06LqlOrKPXtTL) - most likely somewhere in Schedule 6 "EXPIRY, EVENTS OF DEFAULT, TERMINATION AND FORCE MAJEURE" pp 475-543. Then again, that may just cite other agreements. But Agility Trains West is I think just a bit of legal-cum-financial machinery, and the real relationship is with Hitachi (rather than their purely financial partners).

Before delivery was completed, there were some significant guarantees provided by Hitachi and partners. How much of that continues during operation is not clear (and likely wouldn't be even after a thorough reading of the MARA). I would note, though, that so far Hitachi and their partners collectively have built the trains at their own expense and received little in return. And given the extra costs of set-up, training, sorting some of the initial problems (not to mention building the Newton Aycliffe factory)Ii suspect they are still net negative in cash flow terms.

GWR MARA: Great Western IEP Network Master Availability and Reliability Agreement (between the Secretary of State for Transport and Agility Trains West Limited)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Jamsdad on May 10, 2021, 12:57:49 pm
With such difficulties I find it strange that GWR is not giving any advice on the use of the Waterloo Exeter route, nor much encouragement to people to use the sleeper. The Sunday night service from Paddington was nearly empty because the GWR website had removed any mention of it running!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 10, 2021, 01:10:17 pm
There’s an ECS move in the system operating from Crewe to Laira.

It’s operated by LSL. No idea what the consist is but this could be hired in charter stock??

One might hope. A single charter set would be of limited help, but something is better than nothing.

37688 + barrier + 5 ex-EMR MkIIIs


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 10, 2021, 01:12:05 pm
A number of Bristol to Swindon shuttles from XC have now appeared on Real Time Trains for tomorrow (Monday 10th).  Also includes a couple running from Plymouth and Paignton.

Sensible.

Will they accept GroupSave  ;D ...

GWRHelp (Michaela) via Twitter have confirmed that the Cross Country trains between Swindon and Bristol WILL accept Groupsave tickets.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 10, 2021, 01:36:55 pm
There’s an ECS move in the system operating from Crewe to Laira.

It’s operated by LSL. No idea what the consist is but this could be hired in charter stock??

One might hope. A single charter set would be of limited help, but something is better than nothing.

37688 + barrier + 5 ex-EMR MkIIIs

They will be High Speed Train (HST) Mk III, not suitable for loco hauled passenger use; more likely this is a planned move for conversion work at Laira to 'Castle' type High Speed Train (HST) use

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 10, 2021, 02:26:46 pm
With such difficulties I find it strange that GWR is not giving any advice on the use of the Waterloo Exeter route, nor much encouragement to people to use the sleeper. The Sunday night service from Paddington was nearly empty because the GWR website had removed any mention of it running!

Would it not make sense to suspend the Sleeper and use the seated stock + locos for daytime services whilst all this is going on?

If it's running virtually empty, surely that makes more sense?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 02:49:40 pm
The sleeper only conveys very limited seated coaches.
And whilst every little helps, it might make make more sense to run the sleeper as normal but encourage use of the seated portion.
Of course during the day, the sleepers are stabled, one at each end of the line, and it MIGHT be worth detaching the seated vehicles and the loco for a short local service.
AFAIK, this used to be done at the Cornish end, possibly summer only.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: alexross42 on May 10, 2021, 04:40:05 pm
The sleeper only conveys very limited seated coaches.
And whilst every little helps, it might make make more sense to run the sleeper as normal but encourage use of the seated portion.
Of course during the day, the sleepers are stabled, one at each end of the line, and it MIGHT be worth detaching the seated vehicles and the loco for a short local service.
AFAIK, this used to be done at the Cornish end, possibly summer only.

That's right, up until a couple of years ago they were used for a Class 57 hauled Summer Saturday service from St. Erth - Exeter and back, consisting of 3 or 4 coaches.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 10, 2021, 05:04:17 pm
There’s an ECS move in the system operating from Crewe to Laira.

It’s operated by LSL. No idea what the consist is but this could be hired in charter stock??

One might hope. A single charter set would be of limited help, but something is better than nothing.

37688 + barrier + 5 ex-EMR MkIIIs

They will be HST Mk III, not suitable for loco hauled passenger use; more likely this is a planned move for conversion work at Laira to 'Castle' type HST use

Photo here: https://twitter.com/25kV/status/1391785302050619393 (https://twitter.com/25kV/status/1391785302050619393)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 05:58:47 pm
Confirmation from GWR in an email that the problem continues into tomorrow, with the same ‘do not travel’ message continuing

Another example of a carefully worded message that IMPLIES a short term problem but without actually promising anything.
As we are now well into Monday, which was "tomorrow" at the time of the message, does anyone really expect a normal service on Tuesday ?

I expect an announcement, statement or press release warning that "disruption could continue into Tuesday"

Now on the GWR website that "disruption is expected to continue into Tuesday" Which does sort of imply "but not beyond Tuesday" without actually claiming this.
Does anyone expect a normal service on Wednesday ?

Unconfirmed reports suggest that two AC EMUS (class 387 ?) are en-route from another operator, but that another IET is stopped with cracks, so that is a net gain of one unit, better than a net loss of one unit but hardly impressive.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 10, 2021, 06:27:58 pm
BBC news reporting that LNER have stated that the issue will continue for "some weeks". No reason to assume that GWR will do any better. In fact more likely worse?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 06:38:51 pm
BBC news reporting that LNER have stated that the issue will continue for "some weeks". No reason to assume that GWR will do any better. In fact more likely worse?

Agree, or in more detail GWR are worst affected, but cant get much worse than at present since only 2 IETs out of about 80 are serviceable. The remaining 2 will probably be stopped soon, but zero out of 80 is not much worse than 2 out of 80.

LNER are less badly affected at present, but the position may be expected to steadily worsen as more IETs succumb. Wont be as bad as GWR as LNER do have electric locomotives and suitable coaches, these being sidelined due to the pandemic but are about to re enter service.

GWR=already cracked
LNER= yet to develop cracks in most units


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on May 10, 2021, 06:56:20 pm
How long would it take to get clearance for Cl 387s to run to Bristol Parkway? Surely given the emergency it wouldn't be that long would it?

I would have thought that might make a meaningful difference in the level of service that could be operated if the number of Cl 800s in use remains at current levels.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 10, 2021, 07:13:00 pm
How long would it take to get clearance for Cl 387s to run to Bristol Parkway? Surely given the emergency it wouldn't be that long would it?

I would have thought that might make a meaningful difference in the level of service that could be operated if the number of Cl 800s in use remains at current levels.

387 drivers already know the road Paddington to Swindon.  Cross County drivers known Swindon to Bristol Temple Meads as a diversionary route; interestingly, they also know Bristol Temple Meads to Cardiff. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Surrey 455 on May 10, 2021, 07:35:17 pm
There are several Eurostars not doing anything at the moment. I'm sure there are lots of reasons why they won't be used on the GWML. What are those reasons?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 10, 2021, 08:12:01 pm
There are several Eurostars not doing anything at the moment. I'm sure there are lots of reasons why they won't be used on the GWML. What are those reasons?

Won't fit through the holes (bridges and tunnels) - too tall?
Won't fit into the stations (platforms) - too long?
Won't plug in at the depots - square pins and round holes?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 10, 2021, 08:12:30 pm
Out of gauge I suspect, and also electric, which would be very limiting as to where they could go.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: nickswift99 on May 10, 2021, 08:13:05 pm
Lack of ATP, no bi-mode (which scuppers Bristol), route clearance, route knowledge (the drivers would need to be conducted), lack of UK based drivers, and the most important of all:

Decent catering, including wine in First Class, along with a buffet car.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: johnneyw on May 11, 2021, 12:39:44 am
From Facebook "Railways of Devon and Cornwall" group showing photo said to be of stock move of HST carriages southwest as a temporary measure due to problems with IETs.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=261318518792855&id=100047441276109&set=gm.520365982708065&source=48&ref=m_notif&notif_t=group_highlights


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 11, 2021, 05:09:10 am
I have summarised the GWR services for each route from today (11th May 2021) - quoting from JourneyCheck - as follows:

London to Bath and Bristol - http://www.passenger.chat/24980
London to Taunton, Devon and Cornwall - http://www.passenger.chat/24981
London to Cardiff and Swansea - http://www.passenger.chat/24982
London to Stroud, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa - http://www.passenger.chat/24983
London to Oxford, Worcester and Hereford - http://www.passenger.chat/24984
London to Newbury and Bedwyn - http://www.passenger.chat/24985

Overview is that passengers are using local services with a series of connections where they are running. Gaps are being filled with additional shuttles where practical. Pewsey served by buses to Newbury.

Some of the write-ups just talk about today, others talk of longer (unspecified) periods.

Summary thread for newcomers on current situation - http://www.passenger.chat/24974 - this is where Facebook posts land people.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 06:13:59 am
Does anyone know how many IETs are expected to be available today for GWR  services ?
And what if any additional rolling stock will be available ?
Are the 5 extra High Speed Train (HST) coaches to be used ? 5 is a bit paltry, but better than nothing.

And is there any public admission by GWR that this will be a long term problem ? Or are they still at the stage of announcing each day that "disruption is expected to continue into tomorrow"

Any public updates from Mr Hopwood ?
Any SUBSTANTIVE news from Hitachi, rather than just apologies ?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: REVUpminster on May 11, 2021, 06:46:23 am
1M41, 10.14 Paignton -Bristol Temple Meads is again extended to Swindon. It must have worked out ok yesterday.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 11, 2021, 06:53:42 am
There are several Eurostars not doing anything at the moment. I'm sure there are lots of reasons why they won't be used on the GWML. What are those reasons?

Eurostar e320 (Class 374) are 16 car units manufactured by Siemens to the European loading gauge and hence are only cleared to run in the UK on Highspeed One

Eurostar e300 (Class 373) or TGV TMST, (TransManche Super Train) whilst in theory could run however the standard formation is 16 cars with 2 power cars makes them excessively long even the North of London/Regional Eurostar sets are 14 cars and 2 power cars.

 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: plymothian on May 11, 2021, 07:00:17 am


And is there any public admission by GWR that this will be a long term problem ? Or are they still at the stage of announcing each day that "disruption is expected to continue into tomorrow"




The stock reply on twitter now appears to have change to:

Quote
Hi there, we expect disruption to continue, but we can't say how long for, or exactly how services will be affected just yet. Please check back closer to the time at http://gwr.com/check


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 11, 2021, 07:24:10 am
Does anyone know how many IETs are expected to be available today for GWR  services ?
And what if any additional rolling stock will be available ?
Are the 5 extra High Speed Train (HST) coaches to be used ? 5 is a bit paltry, but better than nothing.

And is there any public admission by GWR that this will be a long term problem ? Or are they still at the stage of announcing each day that "disruption is expected to continue into tomorrow"

Any public updates from Mr Hopwood ?
Any SUBSTANTIVE news from Hitachi, rather than just apologies ?



2x IETs in service today.

Additional High Speed Train (HST) carriages that came yesterday will be in use once staff are retrained.

Additional class 387’s to arrive from C2C.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 11, 2021, 07:37:35 am


And is there any public admission by GWR that this will be a long term problem ? Or are they still at the stage of announcing each day that "disruption is expected to continue into tomorrow"




The stock reply on twitter now appears to have change to:

Quote
Hi there, we expect disruption to continue, but we can't say how long for, or exactly how services will be affected just yet. Please check back closer to the time at http://gwr.com/check

From the National Rail website re: GWR

"Disruption is likely to continue into next week, and details of the timetable are currently being finalised. Please keep checking this page for updates".


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 11, 2021, 07:46:53 am

From the National Rail website re: GWR

"Disruption is likely to continue into next week, and details of the timetable are currently being finalised. Please keep checking this page for updates".

I can see it going on a lot longer than that, I reckon months.

I’m guessing each train will need jacking up, stripping down to access crack, welding, reassembled and then certification (if the work requires substantial changes).
That’s got to be the best part of a week to do and 93 sets to complete. You don’t know if there’s a risk more issues aren’t discovered once the sets are stripped down either.

They’ve got to go all out on it. Getting everything back for the Summer is crucial.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 11, 2021, 08:14:49 am

From the National Rail website re: GWR

"Disruption is likely to continue into next week, and details of the timetable are currently being finalised. Please keep checking this page for updates".

I can see it going on a lot longer than that, I reckon months.

I’m guessing each train will need jacking up, stripping down to access crack, welding, reassembled and then certification (if the work requires substantial changes).
That’s got to be the best part of a week to do and 93 sets to complete. You don’t know if there’s a risk more issues aren’t discovered once the sets are stripped down either.

They’ve got to go all out on it. Getting everything back for the Summer is crucial.

That seems a fair assessment from someone "in the know", and the sooner that GWR are honest/realistic about it in order that people can make other plans, the better.

If it's "months" given that we're already halfway through May, it'll be a pretty ropey summer for the railways at best.

Let's hope the roads hold up.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 11, 2021, 08:19:18 am

That seems a fair assessment from someone "in the know", and the sooner that GWR are honest/realistic about it in order that people can make other plans, the better.

If it's "months" given that we're already halfway through May, it'll be a pretty ropey summer for the railways at best.

Let's hope the roads hold up.

I imagine once they get a unit stripped down to discover the extent of the problem, get specialists in, get a scope of the works required together and get approval all round then I don’t think any accurate timescales can be given.
Each set could be different and require varying levels of work, some could be returned to traffic quite quickly. I’m guessing there’s a lot parties involved.... Hitachi, GWR, DfT etc etc.

Personally I don’t think you tell passengers it’ll be months then, after a through inspection, it’s deemed a large number of sets are safe and quickly returned to traffic. Passengers might ask questions as to how safe the trains are, won’t inspire confidence.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Clan Line on May 11, 2021, 08:36:18 am
 "No cracks in here - we're all ready to go"

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZSHLhXH/Screenshot-2021-05-11-082031.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Today's Telelgraph


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 11, 2021, 09:02:07 am
Remaining EMR High Speed Train's (HST)s withdrawn this weekend.  Might we see them in the GWR area from next week?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 09:27:30 am
Remaining East Midlands Railway (EMR) High Speed Train's (HST)s withdrawn this weekend.  Might we see them in the GWR area from next week?

Hopefully, but with what are East Midlands Railway (EMR) replacing them ? if the replacements are IETs or similar then East Midlands Railway (EMR) might want to hang onto the High Speed Train's (HST)s.

How many High Speed Train's (HST)s involved ?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 11, 2021, 09:38:06 am
Remaining EMR HSTs withdrawn this weekend.  Might we see them in the GWR area from next week?
Hopefully, but with what are EMR replacing them ?

Class 170 and 360 ... with previously diesel trains London - Corby running using 21 electric units.   There are plans for 810s (800 variants) but not yet.   They ARE getting there - down to just 2 sets this week, however they would need DfT derogation as they are drop window, slam door and I suspect dump-on-track trains.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 11, 2021, 09:39:02 am
Remaining EMR HSTs withdrawn this weekend.  Might we see them in the GWR area from next week?

It would be the logical choice, but I doubt they could be put to use straightaway. I am no expert on driver/guard qualifications, but I doubt that there are any GWR HSS drivers/guards who still sign full-length High Speed Train's (HST)s with slam doors. The East Midlands Railway (EMR) power cars are also subtly different, having MTU engines I believe. GWR may obtain emergency derogation to use the slam door stock as part of their Castle fleet.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 11, 2021, 09:47:27 am
Class 170 and 360 ... with previously diesel trains London - Corby running using 21 electric units.   There are plans for 810s (800 variants) but not yet.   They ARE getting there - down to just 2 sets this week, however they would need DfT derogation as they are drop window, slam door and I suspect dump-on-track trains.

DfT's concern with derogation would be that the trains would be a magnet for that small subset of rail enthusiast whose idea of heaven is to stick his head out of a train carriage at 125 mph, knowing that they will always miss any external object.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 11, 2021, 09:56:38 am

DfT's concern with derogation would be that the trains would be a magnet for that small subset of rail enthusiast whose idea of heaven is to stick his head out of a train carriage at 125 mph, knowing that they will always miss any external object.

Put simply. There is nothing else that can be put into service.  Potentially there could be more TM’s available which could mean that services could be at least double manned to mitigate against enthusiasts with a death wish.

I think all drivers and guards will still sign High Speed Train's (HST)s irrespective of length. Training on slam door will potentially be the only thing TMs need. There obviously may be some new TMs who have never worked slam door stock.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 11, 2021, 10:25:19 am

From the National Rail website re: GWR

"Disruption is likely to continue into next week, and details of the timetable are currently being finalised. Please keep checking this page for updates".

I can see it going on a lot longer than that, I reckon months.

I’m guessing each train will need jacking up, stripping down to access crack, welding, reassembled and then certification (if the work requires substantial changes).
That’s got to be the best part of a week to do and 93 sets to complete. You don’t know if there’s a risk more issues aren’t discovered once the sets are stripped down either.

They’ve got to go all out on it. Getting everything back for the Summer is crucial.

That seems a fair assessment from someone "in the know", and the sooner that GWR are honest/realistic about it in order that people can make other plans, the better.

If it's "months" given that we're already halfway through May, it'll be a pretty ropey summer for the railways at best.

Let's hope the roads hold up.

With the Spring Bank Holiday and associated Summer Half Term break fast approaching; the Covid straightjacket now loose enough to permit staycation breaks, it will be interesting to see how many pax will still want to head to the South West on the train. It wouldn't surprise me if we will still see overcrowding on whatever services will be available.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 10:33:54 am
Agree, that is why obtaining extra stock, even if not compliant with every rule, is in my view urgent.
If Tornado is allowed to the West country on a charter, then why not daily ?
If a heritage diesel is allowed on a charter, then why not daily ?
Could not preserved DMUs be used on West country branches ?

Time to start planning NOW rather than wait until the last minute and then "it might have been a possibility, but there was not time for all the paperwork/training/derogations/appeasing the RMT."


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 11, 2021, 10:39:28 am
Spent an hour at Swindon this morning at the tail end of the "rush hour".   I haven't been there at a similar time since the virus so hard to put things into perspective.

Around 30 got off an incoming Cross Country shuttle from Bristol Temple Meads.  A similar number caught a rare IET to Reading and probably 40 or more for a 12 car 387 to Didcot Parkway, Reading and London Paddington.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/xchst1.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/xchstswi.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/ietswi.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/xchstiet.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/387swi1.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/387swi2.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 11, 2021, 11:16:55 am
12-car EMU at Swindon - that could yet be the new normal, but it shows flexibilty.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 11, 2021, 12:14:15 pm
There’s quite a bit of training and retraining taking place on Turbos and 387s, for TM’s especially, and plenty of hard work behind the scenes to secure any sensible* available additional stock from other operators.  All trains I have seen have been very quiet, though I expect there are a few busy ones running around, and people will return in their droves when summer and further loosening of restrictions take place.

In terms of returning to a normal service, I see no point wildly guessing until Hitachi have done the research to fully appreciate the issue, and can design and implement a fix.

* I doubt very much you’ll see Tornado, which even with Broadgage’s flights of fancy is somewhat of a stretch.  If you have a set of coaches then there are lots of far more sensible options to pull them!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 11, 2021, 12:23:05 pm
Richard Clinnick from RAIL has tweeted that three 387/3s from c2c are on their way to Reading, where they will require a software modification before going into traffic with GWR:
https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1392075893783158784 (https://twitter.com/Richard_rail/status/1392075893783158784)

He also says that GWR is still looking for additional rolling stock, with all manners of options being considered.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: caliwag on May 11, 2021, 01:23:33 pm
Surprised there's not talk of hi-jacking the blue 125 set


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 11, 2021, 01:31:47 pm
Surprised there's not talk of hi-jacking the blue 125 set

Unlikely, as it has already been hijacked to operate the S&C Staycation Express whilst the High Speed Train (HST) stock bought for the purpose is refurbished at Eastleigh.

It is more likely that GWR will look to West Coast Railways for their Mark I stock and Class 47s and maybe Locomotive Services Limited for their blood and custard Mark IIs and Class 47s.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 11, 2021, 01:45:03 pm
Just to add to GWR's woes today, according to the National Rail site there's currently a major signalling system fault between Acton Main Line and Ealing Broadway. It says that trains will be delayed by up to 30 minutes until 15:00, but looking at RealTimeTrains nothing has departed or arrived at PAD since 12:45.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 11, 2021, 01:57:11 pm
Remaining EMR HSTs withdrawn this weekend.  Might we see them in the GWR area from next week?
Hopefully, but with what are EMR replacing them ?

Class 170 and 360 ... with previously diesel trains London - Corby running using 21 electric units.   There are plans for 810s (800 variants) but not yet.   They ARE getting there - down to just 2 sets this week, however they would need DfT derogation as they are drop window, slam door and I suspect dump-on-track trains.

From https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/help-manage/about-us/media-release/emr-connect-all-electric-train-service-launches-next-week

Quote
EMR’s first all-electric trains - reduces carbon emissions by 77% and lowers noise levels for lineside neighbours

EMR Connect will run twice hourly between Corby and London St Pancras

Staff excited to begin serving passengers

East Midlands Railway's (EMR) new all electric train service running twice hourly between Corby and London St Pancras launches this week.

EMR Connect, which uses a fleet of 360 trains, is the company’s first electric route - delivering a reduction of carbon emissions by 77%, as well as lowering noise levels for lineside neighbours.

Over the last six months, 87 mainline drivers and 107 train managers across four traincrew depots, have been trained to work on the 360s - with more staff to come.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 03:36:13 pm
One of the more polite jokes circulating about the wretched units is a small group of orange clad engineers pointing at a presumably cracked IET and saying "SEE IT, SAY IT, SCRAP IT"


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 11, 2021, 03:45:49 pm
In any event of this kind there's a temptation to play hunt-the-hubris, even if it's a bit too easy - verging on depth-charging whales in a teacup in some cases (have you seen that EMR video from last month about their 810s being built?). This is from the article I cited yesterday that was written by a Hitachi executive, now reeking of essence of hubris*, but quoted to make a more serious point.
Quote
Hitachi’s renowned build quality and engineering will ensure a smooth ride for passengers on long journeys, truly befitting of the 21st century.

That is what is at stake for Hitachi. Reputation matters to them: without it they don't really have a global business. And as a Japanese company, there's all the the cultural background of a society in which any loss of face is a unacceptable. And as embarrassments go, this is a biggie.

So, ask yourselves: how will Hitachi react? With a shrug the shoulders, and saying "it'll be very bad for business but we'll just have to live with it"? Or will the relevant boss look at his younger colleagues and say "this will be no.1 priority (and 2, 3, and 4 as well) for the rest of my working life  - and of yours too"?

* You can buy it bottled as Hubrisco.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 04:12:23 pm
I expect that the name Hitachi will be seen a lot less, at least in Europe.
A rebranding, or the setting up of a subsidiary with an unrelated name seems likely.

Possibly something that sounds a bit British and not Japanese.
"West country rail engineering" or perhaps "Trent valley train builders" or some such that sounds British and has a UK registered business address, but in fact primarily imports japanese trains.
No connection with that Hitachi lot who made all those faulty trains, though we do source "some components from overseas"

Even before this fiasco, the perceived poor quality of the IETs  was resulting in negative views about other unrelated Hitachi products. I recall a local political figure stating that "If Hitachi cant build a decent train, then I wont want one of their nuclear reactors" They had suffered from 5 car units replacing full length HSTs with standing between Taunton and London.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Kernowman on May 11, 2021, 04:37:30 pm
Agree, that is why obtaining extra stock, even if not compliant with every rule, is in my view urgent.
If Tornado is allowed to the West country on a charter, then why not daily ?
If a heritage diesel is allowed on a charter, then why not daily ?
Could not preserved DMUs be used on West country branches ?

Time to start planning NOW rather than wait until the last minute and then "it might have been a possibility, but there was not time for all the paperwork/training/derogations/appeasing the RMT."
I have to say that I agree, although the situation is a very unfortunate one, and the issues surrounding the IETs have been widely discussed on here and I'm sure will continue to be so, this situation is also an opportunity for the railway to show how well it can respond in a crisis and hopefully look back with a sense of pride in the future at how well it did so. Far better to look back and say 'Yes things went wrong but didn't we respond well'  than a 'Well things go wrong, don't travel by train' attitude. Moving stock around and obtaining extra stock from wherever necessary should be a priority as should providing staff for assistance at stations and on social media. Most passengers would rather get a train, however unusual and/or older the rolling stock than wait on a platform for five hours for something usual and/or new to turn up that's absolutely rammed and/or quite possibly less comfortable as well


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 11, 2021, 06:12:59 pm
Trying to think of plans to deal with this, on varying scales of time and resources, I came up with the following, based on the reports that the risk posed by the jacking points is of chunk dropping off while running:

A VVSTP: With enough cracks measured, pick the ones that really can't actually break in a couple of days and start running those under daily inspection if need be. This uses a lot of inspection resource, but not much else.

B VSTP: Restrain the bit that might drop off. How possible that is will depend on how big it is (i.e. where the cracks are under the body). But if it comes down to drilling and tapping a few holes, and bolting on a steel strap, that might be quick enough to buy time for the next plans. I can't see that this (or plan A) will allow jacking with no risk this bit fails - and results in a damaged bodyshell. Such a strap is likely to be visible to the public from a platform, which might or might not be a good thing.

C STP: Weld the cracks up. I've no idea how tricky welding a thick lump of this alloy is (I never did get on with metallurgy and materials as a subject), but I expect "very". This ought to permit jacking as usual, but I doubt it would meet the fatigue life requirement. In fact I don't suppose that aspect would even be considered.

D LTP: For the trains to run for their full lifetime (the only way Hitachi can ever get any income from them) the whole issue of what went wrong has to be understood. If it is feasible to take these bolsters off and weld on new ones, that puts a ceiling on the repair cost. If new bodyshells are needed, obviously that's a higher ceiling.

I'm not suggesting all of those plans are needed, as some might not help enough to be worthwhile. But if there is a way to get a significant fleet back into service by the end of the week, and keep it there, I suspect the response will have to be phased in some way. As to the details, those are just my guesses, based on several concentric layers of ignorance - so apologies to anyone who doesn't approve of that kind of speculation.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 06:14:12 pm
I agree, (with Kernowman)  that this could be an opportunity for "the railway" to show how well it can do in an emergency, by obtaining substitute rolling stock even if this would be non compliant under normal conditions.

I remain unconvinced that all the latest features are needed for relatively low speed operation on a branch line, that does in practical terms rather resembles a heritage line.

The only "fly in the ointment" is passenger comfort. IET supporters both in GWR and informed persons on these fora have gone to a great deal of trouble to persuade us that IETs are lovely trains, ideal for GWR routes, and that only a few old farts consider them to be a backward step.
Use of old stock, whether HSTs or other even older trains will involve a certain amount of loss of face. If significant numbers of passengers actually prefer the old trains and say so in the media or on trip advisor and the like, then very considerable loss of face will result.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 11, 2021, 06:20:06 pm
I expect that the name Hitachi will be seen a lot less, at least in Europe.
A rebranding, or the setting up of a subsidiary with an unrelated name seems likely.

Possibly something that sounds a bit British and not Japanese.
"West country rail engineering" or perhaps "Trent valley train builders" or some such that sounds British and has a UK registered business address, but in fact primarily imports japanese trains.
No connection with that Hitachi lot who made all those faulty trains, though we do source "some components from overseas"



Hitachi will weather the storm, in there defence no one has been injured or worse still killed due to a structural failure on the trains

[/quote]

Even before this fiasco, the perceived poor quality of the IETs  was resulting in negative views about other unrelated Hitachi products. I recall a local political figure stating that "If Hitachi cant build a decent train, then I wont want one of their nuclear reactors" They had suffered from 5 car units replacing full length HSTs with standing between Taunton and London.

The UK Government set the specification, conducted the tender process and awarded the contract based on ???? more than likely cost

All of the modern rail vehicles are very much the same, the was board seats and the seating layout are not Hitachi but are to DfT spec


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Jamsdad on May 11, 2021, 06:48:46 pm
"The only "fly in the ointment" is passenger comfort. IET▸ supporters both in GWR and informed persons on these fora have gone to a great deal of trouble to persuade us that IETs are lovely trains, ideal for GWR routes, and that only a few old farts consider them to be a backward step.
Use of old stock, whether HSTs or other even older trains will involve a certain amount of loss of face. If significant numbers of passengers actually prefer the old trains and say so in the media or on trip advisor and the like, then very considerable loss of face will result."[/i]

So true. On Sunday I went up to London on the SWR Waterloo service. The seats were lovely, soft, deep, comfortable and brought into sharp focus how truly awful are the rigid board seats that the GWR IETs have.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 11, 2021, 06:50:46 pm
https://twitter.com/SuttonOak8g/status/1392174219618816010 (https://twitter.com/SuttonOak8g/status/1392174219618816010)

Quote
EXCLUSIVE: Riviera Trains have had a request to mobilise 2 sets of their MK2F coaching stock to assist GWR. Nemesis Rail at Burton have readied 1 set with the 2nd set due to be ready by Friday. Traction options are currently being discussed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 07:05:45 pm
https://twitter.com/SuttonOak8g/status/1392174219618816010 (https://twitter.com/SuttonOak8g/status/1392174219618816010)

Quote
EXCLUSIVE: Riviera Trains have had a request to mobilise 2 sets of their MK2F coaching stock to assist GWR. Nemesis Rail at Burton have readied 1 set with the 2nd set due to be ready by Friday. Traction options are currently being discussed.

Splendid, two sets wont help that much, but still a lot better than nothing.
What about the two GB Railfreight (GBRF) liveried class 50 locomotives for hauling one train. It is rumoured that Mr. Hopwood has a fondness for these. Double heading would be prudent to avoid embarrassing failures.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 11, 2021, 07:15:09 pm
See here
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22022.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22022.0)

Coaching stock already on its way. Traction still be decided, but a pair of class 50s could no doubt be obtained.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Clan Line on May 11, 2021, 07:20:45 pm
So true. On Sunday I went up to London on the SWR Waterloo service. The seats were lovely, soft, deep, comfortable and brought into sharp focus how truly awful are the rigid board seats that the GWR IETs have.

Hear hear !!!

Pre pandemic my wife and I came back from London to Warminster 1st Class.
2 X 5 car IET to Bath - no trolley - in the other half ?? First Class thrown open to all and sundry - was the other half of the train even open ?? Hard seats, over bright lighting, pretty average ride, colour "scheme" - ugh !!
SWT Bath to Warminster in a 159 - sublime comfort ............. and this was a 30 year old train !!!

Just to add insult to injury, the fares on GWR to London from Warminster are double that on SWT.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 11, 2021, 08:01:34 pm
See here
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22022.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22022.0)

Coaching stock already on its way. Traction still be decided, but a pair of class 50s could no doubt be obtained.

Would be wonderful to see the combination back in revenue earning service in the West, but I suspect traction knowledge might be a problem. I presume GWRs own 57s will be used ?  I guess a minimum of three or four locos would be needed for the two rakes of MkIIs.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 11, 2021, 08:09:50 pm
Quote from: broadgage
Coaching stock already on its way. Traction still be decided, but a pair of class 50s could no doubt be obtained.

IMHO the last thing you want is to attract enthusiasts when you’re trying to create emergency capacity.  Class 50s will have them travelling far and wide to use services that will be desperately needed for regular passengers.  Mind you, even a Class 57, 68 or 70 will attract some enthusiasts.

Would be wonderful to see the combination back in revenue earning service in the West, but I suspect traction knowledge might be a problem. I presume GWRs own 57s will be used ?  I guess a minimum of three or four locos would be needed for the two rakes of MkIIs.

It’s possible that GWR crewed Class 57s will be used, but more likely a class of engine with drivers supplied from the hiring company, or a third party I would have thought.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 11, 2021, 08:32:58 pm
Before someone else suggests it...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/cl483.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 11, 2021, 09:12:12 pm
A quick trip to the near future in the Tardis took me to Rewe, just north of Exeter on Wednesday, 19th May 2021 - just in time to phot the hired in stock for the 16:15 Penzance to Paddington passing......

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ww255/PhilWakely/Western.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 11, 2021, 09:21:27 pm
That disruption map BR logo is definitely taking a fuller shape now...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: sikejsudjek3 on May 11, 2021, 10:32:16 pm
If they stick anything remotely interesting to enthusiasts on the front, half the train will be full before the public get anywhere near it ! That was certainly true of some of the summer Saturday jaunts to Weymouth from Bristol !


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 12, 2021, 06:40:49 am

That seems a fair assessment from someone "in the know", and the sooner that GWR are honest/realistic about it in order that people can make other plans, the better.

If it's "months" given that we're already halfway through May, it'll be a pretty ropey summer for the railways at best.

Let's hope the roads hold up.



Personally I don’t think you tell passengers it’ll be months then, after a through inspection, it’s deemed a large number of sets are safe and quickly returned to traffic. Passengers might ask questions as to how safe the trains are, won’t inspire confidence.

As a customer I can't say I agree with that - it's always better to under promise and over deliver -  GWR's website is still encouraging ticket purchases and the information on disruption says;

"We have had to cancel many of our long-distance services and expect disruption to journeys to continue for the next few days".

How long will the "thorough inspections" of the fleet take? Never mind the repairs themselves!

"Next few days" seems ridiculously optimistic and encourages customers to think that everything will be fine in a week or two. If they go ahead and purchase expensive long distance tickets on that basis only for the current fiasco to continue and ruin their plans, that will inspire a lot less confidence than a more cautious, but realistic estimate of a return to something like normality.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 07:43:50 am
I agree that disruption is likely for months and possibly for years.
The GWR website and other sources certainly IMPLY that it will be back to normal in a few days at the most.

Many reports in the media refer to the need for inspections before returning the trains to service. Have ANY GWR trains returned to service after inspections ?
Saturday=10 units available
Sunday=5 units available
Monday=3 units available
Tuesday=2 units available.
Today ???
No reports refer to the need for major repairs.

My estimate for repairs, based upon common sense not upon detailed engineering study is as follows.
For the FIRST repair, including studies, paperwork, and refining the technique, a few months.
For the second repair, one month.
Thereafter as experience is gained, one set a week.

That comes to a couple of years. And is optimistically assuming that no other defects are found during the repairs.
It also optimistically assumes that after the repairs that the units will return to service reliably.
I expect a PERMANENT reduction in availability due to the need for extra inspections for the life of the trains.
If about 80 trains each require an extra one hour a day for inspections, that is the loss of about 80 train hours a day. Perhaps half of this could be covered by trains not needed during the off peak, but the other 40 train hours a day might need another 4 trains each working for 10 hours a day.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2021, 08:11:04 am
If they stick anything remotely interesting to enthusiasts on the front, half the train will be full before the public get anywhere near it ! That was certainly true of some of the summer Saturday jaunts to Weymouth from Bristol !

Indeed ... but consider ...

There's both a pressure to provide a service to get people who "have to travel" around and a pressure to get people back onto trains post-Covid.   What better way to address that latter pressure than have the advocates for rail show and market that advocacy to show the more general public that there ARE trains around and they ARE safe?   Reports of here yesterday of just 30 people transferring from a Bristol - Swindon shuttle onto a long electric unit to London would suggest that even with current social distancing, there may be room for everyone.

I grant you that the Rail Motor running Newquay during the August surfing extravaganza would lead to some congestion - sense and sensibility needed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 12, 2021, 08:15:10 am
No IETs to start the service with this morning. Unrelated problem discovered overnight. Both remaining IETs had visible signs of impact damage which is being investigated. Both units will however be back in traffic during the course of the day.

All parties involved had a meeting/conference call yesterday with a view to returning anything upto 60 sets following risk assessments. This has to be approved by the ORR and a decision is expected this afternoon. Depending on the outcome of that, a more accurate timescale can be published.

As for repairs. They estimate each unit with take 3 to 4 days to repair once enough staff have been recruited.  To repair every single affected IET for all TOCs will take until the end of 2022.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2021, 08:40:05 am
All parties involved had a meeting/conference call yesterday with a view to returning anything upto 60 sets following risk assessments. This has to be approved by the ORR and a decision is expected this afternoon. Depending on the outcome of that, a more accurate timescale can be published.

Makes sense. Please keep us informed.

Questions in my mind (too early to ask them?) include ...
* Is that 60 GWR sets or 60 sets across all TOCs?
* Would there be operating limits - e.g. top speed 90 m.p.h?
* Extra inspections / etc - would the 60 be available for the normal proportion of the time?  Would they get worse and some have to be withdrawn?

Quote
As for repairs. They estimate each unit with take 3 to 4 days to repair once enough staff have been recruited.  To repair every single affected IET for all TOCs will take until the end of 2022.

Is that a single production line of repairs, or could they be done in parallel?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 12, 2021, 08:46:13 am

Makes sense. Please keep us informed.

Questions in my mind (too early to ask them?) include ...
* Is that 60 GWR sets or 60 sets across all TOCs?
* Would there be operating limits - e.g. top speed 90 m.p.h?
* Extra inspections / etc - would the 60 be available for the normal proportion of the time?  Would they get worse and some have to be withdrawn?


60 GWR sets with smaller cracks.

Possible operating limits. I understand that’s been discussed and intensive monitoring


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 08:49:50 am
If they stick anything remotely interesting to enthusiasts on the front, half the train will be full before the public get anywhere near it ! That was certainly true of some of the summer Saturday jaunts to Weymouth from Bristol !

This should be manageable by the following

1) Do not advertise what traction will be provided. Some enthusiasts will find out and travel for the fun of it, but numbers will be limited. On the second day, numbers will be a bit limited by those who DID find out and DID travel on the previous day, but don't want to do it twice.

2) Use enough coaches to provide ample capacity for both normal passengers AND for a few hundred enthusiasts.

3) Any rare or interesting traction could be best used on long distance NON STOP services, for example fast from Paddington to Plymouth. The cost of a ticket would limit enthusiast numbers. Also consider use on a late evening service, with no return possible by train the same day.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 12, 2021, 09:47:58 am
No IETs to start the service with this morning. Unrelated problem discovered overnight.

Three car turbo working at least one of the Reading to Newport shuttles.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Ivor Dewdney on May 12, 2021, 09:51:07 am
How about TfW 67's and Mk4 stock?

Cardiff - Holyhead loco-hauled not resuming until 13th September according to North Wales Coast [http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm]

Short sets but they have buffet/restaurant facilities   ;)

Just a thought...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on May 12, 2021, 09:55:38 am
No IETs to start the service with this morning. Unrelated problem discovered overnight.

Three car turbo working at least one of the Reading to Newport shuttles.


Apparently it's 166215 according to info posted on other forums.

EDIT: WNXX is reporting that 1B07 09.13 Reading - Newport (26 late start) is 166201 so possibly a unit swap.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 10:23:16 am
Any news about extra stock ?
IIRC the following is promised and may already have been delivered.

3 AC EMUs from C2C.
5 High Speed Train (HST) trailers.
2 sets of loco hauled coaches from Riveria trains.

EMUs in service from when ? should be simple as similar units are already used on Thames valley services.

What are the plans for the 5 High Speed Train (HST) coaches ? make an additional 5+2 set, or perhaps add one vehicle to each castle set to make 2+4 sets into 2+5.

Have the loco hauled coaches yet arrived ? Date for entry into service ?

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronyms


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: phile on May 12, 2021, 10:30:15 am
How about TfW 67's and Mk4 stock?

Cardiff - Holyhead loco-hauled not resuming until 13th September according to North Wales Coast [http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm]

Short sets but they have buffet/restaurant facilities   ;)

Just a thought...

The crews who will be working this are still training on the Loco and stock and don't have route knowledge and those who have route knowledge don't know the traction and Mark 4s.   There are differences between the Mark 3s and Mark 4s so far as competence is concerned.   Latest is that one set will be working on June 7th


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2021, 10:39:13 am
What are the plans for the 5 HST coaches ? make an additional 5+2 set, or perhaps add one vehicle to each castle set to make 2+4 sets into 2+5.

Unlikely to be a mixed set - can you have both slam door and electric doors in the same train?   Logic might be another 4+2 set with a spare carriage??


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on May 12, 2021, 10:48:16 am
If they stick anything remotely interesting to enthusiasts on the front, half the train will be full before the public get anywhere near it ! That was certainly true of some of the summer Saturday jaunts to Weymouth from Bristol !

This should be manageable by the following

1) Do not advertise what traction will be provided. Some enthusiasts will find out and travel for the fun of it, but numbers will be limited. On the second day, numbers will be a bit limited by those who DID find out and DID travel on the previous day, but don't want to do it twice.

2) Use enough coaches to provide ample capacity for both normal passengers AND for a few hundred enthusiasts.

3) Any rare or interesting traction could be best used on long distance NON STOP services, for example fast from Paddington to Plymouth. The cost of a ticket would limit enthusiast numbers. Also consider use on a late evening service, with no return possible by train the same day.

1. Really? I think you grossly underestimate the ability of enthusiasts to find out about unusual traction and their desire to take advantage of it.
2. I'm sure they will be using everything that is possibly available and practical to use, and it still is unlikely to be enough.
3. So how does that traction get to Paddington for it's fast evening run? On an earlier service into Paddington from Plymouth no doubt, which gives the enthusiasts the opportunity to do a return trip. If stock is available, you can bet it will be used throughout the day, else what is the point in having it?

Also, with social distancing, the last thing you want to be doing is putting anything in place that makes over-crowding more of an issue. Health should come before a jolly behind a Class 50 or Tornado on a COVID B.1.617.2 excursion.

It's obvious that you are relishing Hitachi's current misfortune, as well as taking the opportunity to wallow in nostalgic thoughts of halcyon days gone by when a Western would be the haulage for your mobile breakfast. I'd remind you that the build quality (current issue) of the trains is totally unrelated to the customer's specification, many aspects of which you hate with a vengeance as you have repeated on here ad nauseam. If they had built longer sets, with buffets and softer seats, they still would be sitting in the depots today with exactly the same problem.




 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 10:55:46 am
What are the plans for the 5 HST coaches ? make an additional 5+2 set, or perhaps add one vehicle to each castle set to make 2+4 sets into 2+5.

Unlikely to be a mixed set - can you have both slam door and electric doors in the same train?   Logic might be another 4+2 set with a spare carriage??

I presume that there is a rule against mixed slam doors and power doors within the same train, WHILST TIMES ARE NORMAL.
In the present circumstances an exception could reasonably be made.

Option one. Put the single additional slam door vehicle at one end of the train. Lock the external slam doors and put up signs that read "this door not in use"
Passengers to move along the train to use this extra seating. If any platform can only take 4 cars, make certain that the slam door vehicle is the one not platformed.

Option two.
Put the single extra slam door coach in the middle of the train, lock the external doors and apply signage as above.
Passengers intending to board or alight will only have to walk a few steps to use the power operated door in the adjacent coach.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 11:12:55 am


It's obvious that you are relishing Hitachi's current misfortune, as well as taking the opportunity to wallow in nostalgic thoughts of halcyon days gone by when a Western would be the haulage for your mobile breakfast. I'd remind you that the build quality (current issue) of the trains is totally unrelated to the customer's specification, many aspects of which you hate with a vengeance as you have repeated on here ad nauseam. If they had built longer sets, with buffets and softer seats, they still would be sitting in the depots today with exactly the same problem.




I am well aware that the current issue is unrelated to the hard seats, no buffet, and other negative aspects of IETs, and have therefore avoided or at least minimised comments on such factors. This thread is about the defective design or construction and NOT about passenger facilities.
Had the trains been full length and of proper inter-city specification, they would still have suffered from the same issues.
However had the trains been proper inter city trains I might have been a bit more forgiving.

However the cracks are the latest problem suffered by a generally unsatisfactory design.
Failure to couple and uncouple reliably in some short and specified time.
Failure to handle adverse conditions at Dawlish.
Overheating in hot weather.
A general failure to achieve the expected reliability and availability, a dozen or more short formations a day was common, pre covid and before the cracks.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 12, 2021, 11:14:20 am

I presume that there is a rule against mixed slam doors and power doors within the same train, WHILST TIMES ARE NORMAL.
In the present circumstances an exception could reasonably be made.

Option one. Put the single additional slam door vehicle at one end of the train. Lock the external slam doors and put up signs that read "this door not in use"
Passengers to move along the train to use this extra seating. If any platform can only take 4 cars, make certain that the slam door vehicle is the one not platformed.

Option two.
Put the single extra slam door coach in the middle of the train, lock the external doors and apply signage as above.
Passengers intending to board or alight will only have to walk a few steps to use the power operated door in the adjacent coach.

The interlock circuit runs from power car to power car so impossible to run a mixed rake


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 12, 2021, 12:15:05 pm

This should be manageable by the following

1) Do not advertise what traction will be provided. Some enthusiasts will find out and travel for the fun of it, but numbers will be limited. On the second day, numbers will be a bit limited by those who DID find out and DID travel on the previous day, but don't want to do it twice.

You underestimate the power of social media, broadgage. A tweet from someone on the lines of "About to leave Penzance on a class 50 hauled train to Paddington via Bristol" gives any follower in Plymouth 2 hours to dust down anorak, fill tartan Thermos flask, find safety goggles for window hanging, retweet and post on Facebook before heading to the station. It might not have quite the same impact as a rare purple-crested frog gobbler being blown off course onto a Glasgow bowling green, but the news will travel fast.

(That last bit might be a bit fanciful. I don't know if there are any bowling greens in Glasgow.)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2021, 01:09:36 pm
Just added to the "beginners start here" landing thread on current disruption at http://www.passenger.chat/24974 ...

Quote
Update - from Wednesday 12th May 2021 - from GWR this morning.

A number of Class 800 series Hitachi trains in use by several train companies, including GWR, have been withdrawn from service for precautionary safety checks.

Once they have been checked by Hitachi and cleared, we hope to bring them back into service as soon as possible. We will keep you up to date here. 

We have had to cancel many of our long-distance services and expect disruption to journeys to continue for the next few days.

Please see just below for the service changes that were in place yesterday and continue today (12th) and probably tomorrow (13th) May 2021


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2021, 01:14:17 pm
(That last bit might be a bit fanciful. I don't know if there are any bowling greens in Glasgow.)

There are.  I took a look from my social media and found https://www.glasgowlife.org.uk/media/6317/bowls-opening-times-and-guidelines.pdf


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on May 12, 2021, 06:51:52 pm
It looks as though a Class 387 is going to venture boldly where no Class 387 has gone before tomorrow. It's not exactly timed gingerly for the strange lands beyond the western outpost of emu territory, so presumably they are not worried about it bashing into anything en route.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/25630/2021-05-13/detailed



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bignosemac on May 12, 2021, 07:14:06 pm
Is there enough stock within the GWR franchise to provide some semblance of a London to the west service?

What issues would there be with the following:

- Class 387s to Swindon where they can interchange with Castle Class HST sets for Wales, Bristol and the west of England.

- A few Turbos back to Reading to provide a Cotswold line service.

- A Turbo shuttle service for Reading to Castle Cary

With the necessary thinning of regional/local services obviously. Spread the pain! There should also be plenty of IET drivers to do pilot working where necessary.

A more fanciful idea. Could redundant Class 91s + Mk4s run between London and Cardiff? LNER have taken back a couple sets from storage. By my reckoning there are still 10 or so sets warm stored.

All current or recently retired stock. No need to call on preserved diesels and Mk1s/2s.






Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on May 12, 2021, 07:24:49 pm
All current or recently retired stock. No need to call on preserved diesels and Mk1s/2s.
Don't forget Tornado!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 12, 2021, 08:00:28 pm
Expect IET availability to improve dramatically within the next few days.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 12, 2021, 08:18:02 pm
Expect IET availability to improve dramatically within the next few days.

Good news for everyone...except Broadgage.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 12, 2021, 08:42:36 pm
Expect IET availability to improve dramatically within the next few days.

Good news for everyone...except Broadgage.

Not so, I never thought much of IETs, and recent events have confirmed my negative views. I would still prefer that they work and transport people, rather than sit idle.

I doubt that any repairs can be done by tomorrow, so presumably slightly cracked units are going to be allowed to run. Eventually though, the whole fleet will need repairs though not all at the same time.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyN on May 12, 2021, 09:08:06 pm
Quote
A more fanciful idea. Could redundant Class 91s + Mk4s run between London and Cardiff? LNER» have taken back a couple sets from storage. By my reckoning there are still 10 or so sets warm stored.

There are also Mk4 sets and class 90s stored someware that where prepared and test run on the proposed Euston Blackpool open access service. The class 90s are DB Schenker owend ex Scotrail sleeper.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on May 12, 2021, 09:36:30 pm

Not so, I never thought much of IETs, and recent events have confirmed my negative views. I would still prefer that they work and transport people, rather than sit idle.

I doubt that any repairs can be done by tomorrow, so presumably slightly cracked units are going to be allowed to run. Eventually though, the whole fleet will need repairs though not all at the same time.

Examined independently and deemed safe provided there’s not more than two cracks.

Two of the worst affected units have had large chunks cut out and sent to the UK Welding Institute and it's equivalent in Japan. 
There’s a suggestion that the cracking is present on DPT vehicles (non-engine fitted).  The yaw damper damage is likely to be stress related. The jacking point damage is not stress related. The true extent of the problem was hidden because the damage caused the paint to flex rather than break.

If the ORR approve then sets can be returned to traffic. They won’t be allowed to outstable as they’ll obviously need inspecting.

Personally I think GWR & Hitachi have done a fantastic job in what they’ve achieved so far to rectify the problem. Hopefully some concrete plans including timescales will soon be in place. I know a lot of GWR staff and, given the impact Covid, they know this Summer is vital for the recovery of the franchise. Let’s hope they can get some sets back safely ASAP and get people moving again. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: trainbuff on May 12, 2021, 11:08:52 pm
What are the plans for the 5 HST coaches ? make an additional 5+2 set, or perhaps add one vehicle to each castle set to make 2+4 sets into 2+5.

Unlikely to be a mixed set - can you have both slam door and electric doors in the same train?   Logic might be another 4+2 set with a spare carriage??

I presume that there is a rule against mixed slam doors and power doors within the same train, WHILST TIMES ARE NORMAL.
In the present circumstances an exception could reasonably be made.

Option one. Put the single additional slam door vehicle at one end of the train. Lock the external slam doors and put up signs that read "this door not in use"
Passengers to move along the train to use this extra seating. If any platform can only take 4 cars, make certain that the slam door vehicle is the one not platformed.

Option 1 is not allowed by the rules. End doors have to act as emergency escape. Cannot do if Locked out of use


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: rower40 on May 13, 2021, 03:41:54 am
The true extent of the problem was hidden because the damage caused the paint to flex rather than break.
This reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the people of Springfield rebuild Ned Flanders' house.  Rod (or was it Todd?) dislikes the Krusty the Klown poster in his bedroom, but is told he can't take it down, because it's load-bearing.

Hitachi's paint is THAT good... ;D


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 13, 2021, 07:43:41 am
Journey check - now reporting disruption to the end of Sunday:

Quote
Due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time at London Paddington fewer trains are able to run on all lines. Disruption is expected until 23:59 16/05.

Last Updated:13/05/2021 07:13

No surprise  - in fact it would be surprising if services were not disrupted for longer.  Sensible to have Journey Check alerting to problems for more than 24 / 36 hours as that can help people plan.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 13, 2021, 07:59:16 am
A couple of services operating between Reading and Exeter today.  :)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 13, 2021, 09:11:44 am
Richard Clinnick reporting four Cl 800s in operation today

https://twitter.com/richard_rail/status/1392752115093757958?s=21


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 13, 2021, 09:38:00 am
A couple of services operating between Reading and Exeter today.  :)

Means the return of a train service for Pewsey - albeit it somewhat limited.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 13, 2021, 09:59:25 am
From GWR ... I have a conference call on another matter in 3 minutes and will come back later and reformat. Some reformatting done ... follow up post coming too

Quote
For immediate release – Thursday 13 May 2021
 
Hitachi Rail and rail industry agree service recovery plan to get trains back
 
Hitachi Rail, train operators, and government have agreed, with oversight from the Office of Rail and Road, a service recovery plan to safely reintroduce more 800 Series and 385 Series trains to the network.
 
The fleet of 800 series trains was removed from service as a precaution at the weekend when cracks were found on some trains.
 
Following extensive safety checks on their trains, Transpennine Express, Hull Trains and ScotRail have been able to operate services across all of their routes since last weekend.
 
After further rigorous safety checks involving ORR’s HM Railway Inspectorate, GWR and LNER will now begin reintroducing trains with a more regular service for passengers. Trains on some routes may be less frequent than usual and train availability could vary, for a number of reasons, so passengers should continue to check with the operators before they travel.
 
Passengers are being advised to check the latest travel advice from their train operator. Eligible passengers are also being encouraged to claim refunds.
 
Service Recovery Plan
 
The service recovery plan follows joint work between Hitachi Rail, train operators and the regulator around the safe return to service of some trains. Since discovering the faults, Hitachi Rail engineers and independent experts have completed rigorous tests and research to gain a clearer understanding of the cracking issue.
 
Based on the work undertaken to understand the issue, and after extensive engagement, Hitachi Rail and train operators, working with the rail regulator, have put in place suitable criteria for the trains to meet before they can re-enter service.
 
The service recovery plan includes thorough inspections by specialist teams before trains leave the depot. Trains will only re-enter service if they meet agreed safety criteria. Working with Hitachi Rail, the rail regulator will continue to carry out rigorous oversight to ensure robust processes are being followed.
 
Over time, trains will be subject to a Forward Repair Plan, which will ensure the long-term continued safe running of the fleet.
 
Andrew Barr, Group CEO of Hitachi Rail, said:
 
“Today’s agreement sets out our joint plan for the phased reintroduction of our trains into service, which will continue to deliver the highest possible safety standards. Safety remains our number one priority, and we and our partners have worked round the clock to agree an approach that allows the return of trains to service where they have been deemed safe.
 
“With our service recovery plan now underway, the operators will begin reintroduction of trains as they are individually approved and deemed safe. We would like to thank our partners for their ongoing support as we work collectively to reintroduce more trains into service.”
 
Robert Nisbet, director of nations and regions at the Rail Delivery Group, said:
 
“The safety of passengers has been the absolute focus for each of the organisations involved in making decisions about these trains over recent days. After some incredibly hard and detailed work, Hitachi’s engineers have worked with train operators and the rail regulator to safely bring some trains back into service. Over the coming days we will be able to get passengers on the affected routes moving again, but for now passengers should continue to check before they travel.”
 
HM Chief Inspector of Railways at the Office of Rail and Road, Ian Prosser CBE said:
 
“We’ve engaged with Hitachi and the train companies to oversee their development of a safe and suitable plan.
 
 “We’re also continuing to provide the rigorous oversight needed to make sure the right checks are being carried out so that the trains are able to re-enter passenger service safely.”
 
Mark Hopwood, GWR Managing Director, said:
 
“Our customers have shown great patience over the past couple of days, and I am grateful for their understanding as we have worked with Hitachi to allow trains to return safely. This news will allow us to run some additional services today and reintroduce more consistent robust timetables for customers after the weekend.
 
 “The industry has come together to help support those travelling – with other operators allowing each other’s tickets to be used on their networks; adding in extra shuttle services to help move people; and in sharing rolling stock to provide it to those who need it most.”
 
David Horne, LNER Managing Director, said:
 
“I am pleased we have been able to work as an industry to agree a service recovery plan with Hitachi and industry partners that will allow trains to return safely to our route. We are continuing to work together to begin the return of Azuma trains into service from next week. Customers should continue to check before they travel with LNER and I apologise for the disruption caused.”


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 13, 2021, 11:48:19 am
Covering letter, from the update press release posted an hour ago.

The press release covered the whole class 80x fleet (and 385s) in the UK - this is somewhat more specific on GWR issues. Having been told "go ahead under the following conditions", though, GWR are now working through the 'details' of that and we're best to wait a little longer to see how it translates into what trains are going to be running and from when.

Quote
Dear Graham,
 
The Rail Delivery Group and Hitachi Rail have just issued this statement (also copied below previous post) confirming that all investigations on their UK Class 800 (IET) fleet  are complete, and that a significant number of Intercity Express Trains can be safely put back into passenger service. 
 
We are now working on what this will mean for GWR timetables for the rest of this week and going forward. Advice for today remains not to travel on our long distance routes. I will update you again when we have the details on that.   I thought it important however to share the good news about trains coming back into service as soon as it was released.
 
Finally, can I say a personal thank you for all the messages of support and goodwill, particularly those that recognised the hard work of our staff.  We have had tremendous support from other rail operators, from Network Rail and from the Department for Transport, and despite operating with less than a handful of long distance trains, between us, we have managed to keep a limited service going.    We are all very glad though that we can now start to bring IETs back into service. 
 
Mark


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 13, 2021, 01:12:04 pm
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57100278) in the last few minutes

Quote
Trains taken out of service after cracks were found are to be reintroduced following "rigorous safety checks", the Rail Delivery Group says.

Some of the Hitachi Class 800 trains have cracks on the lifting plate, but as this is used for maintenance and not passenger journeys, regulators have agreed they are safe to return.

There has been disruption for passengers since Saturday

The rail minister warned travellers to expect disruption for "some time".

The Rail Delivery Group said Great Western Railway and London North Eastern Railway (LNER) will ramp up services.

Travellers are being advised to continue to check with their operator before they travel.

[snip]

Quote
Great Western Railway is still advising customers not to travel, saying disruption is "likely to continue for some time".

"We have had to cancel many of our long-distance services and expect disruption to journeys to continue for the next few days," it said on Thursday.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2021, 01:20:43 pm
Simin Calder is stating that a ‘core service’ will be running on all ling distance routes next week as stock is released into service. So some sort of limited? service using IETs on all routes that use them


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: lbraine on May 13, 2021, 01:39:02 pm
This might not be the time to post ths question - or indeed the correct thread to do it in - but has anyone else noticed that the Class 387 doing the emergency PAD-RDG-DID-SWI 'shuttles' are actually doing so in times that are the same as the IETs.

It got me thinking if there was long term value in keeping these services, in some form..

I can see benefits with longer distance services being able to 'skip Swindon' to provide better times to further points (or is skipping Swindon comitting some kind of GWR heresay!); a service that is (arguably) using stock with more comfortable seats than the IETs; the tax payer getting more use/more value out of those very expensive wires that have just been erected.

Current timings are showing a end to end time of 1 hour (or just under) - thats acceptabe in a 387, right ?



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2021, 01:55:06 pm
I’m not sure thaylt there’scany spares once the May timetable is introduced fully?

Until then, I’m sure GWR are looking at what they can do with the 387s once they can train up sufficient staff.

Btw, XC shuttles seem to have their last day tomorrow (Friday), they’re saying chevk with GWR for services next week. So IETs expected back in some quantity next week it seems


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 13, 2021, 02:03:16 pm
To add to ChrisB’s comments, whilst there won’t be a huge difference in the Section Running Times, it’s worth bearing in mind that there are very few trains currently running.  Throw the usual number of 125mph trains out there and pathing everything then becomes more difficult with more of a mix of running speeds. 

Not to say a Swindon<>Paddington service using them couldn’t work in principle.  Though the whole market is changing as a result of the virus, so probably not worth considering seriously at the moment, especially if the large majority of IET’s are back sooner rather than later, but certainly not something to rule out if less 387s are needed for the services they currently work in the future.

Mind you, I find Class 387 seats far worse than IET ones.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 13, 2021, 06:38:49 pm
This is GWR's latest public statement, e-mailed out this evening:
Quote
News about our Intercity Express Hitachi train services
Recently, the trains which are manufactured by Hitachi, and used on our long-distance routes, were withdrawn for precautionary safety checks, as cracks were found during maintenance.
 
Unfortunately, this led to the cancellation of nearly all the services we operate on the long-distance routes to and from London Paddington.
 
Your safety is, as always, a priority to us. These trains have now been rigorously checked and rechecked and are starting to be cleared to travel. Our services are now operating again and over the coming days will see a return to a near normal timetable.
 
We thank you for your patience during this time and will, of course, keep you updated.

So, "near normal timetable", eh? Which "normal" would that be, I wonder.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on May 13, 2021, 06:45:34 pm
This might not be the time to post ths question - or indeed the correct thread to do it in - but has anyone else noticed that the Class 387 doing the emergency PAD-RDG-DID-SWI 'shuttles' are actually doing so in times that are the same as the IETs.

Not surprising, 387 are 110mph units.   387 power to weight ratio is better than the class 800's   387 are built and geared as outer metro units with the gearing and breaking to match that duty..  



It got me thinking if there was long term value in keeping these services, in some form..

I can see benefits with longer distance services being able to 'skip Swindon' to provide better times to further points (or is skipping Swindon comitting some kind of GWR heresay!); a service that is (arguably) using stock with more comfortable seats than the IETs; the tax payer getting more use/more value out of those very expensive wires that have just been erected.

Current timings are showing a end to end time of 1 hour (or just under) - thats acceptabe in a 387, right ?


377 / 387 are used on may routes to proved the equivalent of the 'inter-city' type services,


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 13, 2021, 07:02:35 pm
How many GWR IETs were in service today ? (reports elsewhere give very varying numbers from 4 up to 20)
How many might reasonably be expected in service tomorrow ?

Are the hired charter trains going to be used ? or is the hope that enough IETs will be serviceable to negate that need.

Is the number of available IETs likely to increase (more at present stopped sets passed after inspection) or is it likely to decrease (presently passed sets withdrawn as cracks spread)



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2021, 08:00:19 pm
I doubt Hitachi have given GWR any definite numbers yet - they've said a core all-routes timetable will be offered from Monday, so I reckon they're working flat out to see what forms of stock might be likely available for then, then work out a timetable that fits stock availability.

You'll get your answer in a day or so, possibly over the weekend.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2021, 08:12:46 pm
This is GWR's latest public statement, e-mailed out this evening:
Quote
News about our Intercity Express Hitachi train services
Recently, the trains which are manufactured by Hitachi, and used on our long-distance routes, were withdrawn for precautionary safety checks, as cracks were found during maintenance.
 
Unfortunately, this led to the cancellation of nearly all the services we operate on the long-distance routes to and from London Paddington.
 
Your safety is, as always, a priority to us. These trains have now been rigorously checked and rechecked and are starting to be cleared to travel. Our services are now operating again and over the coming days will see a return to a near normal timetable.
 
We thank you for your patience during this time and will, of course, keep you updated.

So, "near normal timetable", eh? Which "normal" would that be, I wonder.

Did you click on the "see latest update' button?

In brief - an hourly direct service both to Swansea & Plymouth. As Thursday for other routes.

Quote
Updated: Thursday 13 May
A number of Class 800 series Hitachi trains in use by several train companies, including GWR, were withdrawn from service earlier this week as a precaution. After completing rigorous safety checks, we will begin reintroducing train services. Trains on some routes will be less frequent than usual, and your journey might take longer than it normally would. Please check your journey on our online journey planner before you leave.

Trains may be busier than usual, including local services. We recommend making a reservation wherever possible to facilitate social distancing.

Online journey planners are updated daily. Check your journey before you travel.

Thursday 13 May

Customers are advised not to travel.


Friday 14 May
Customers are advised not to travel. Online journey planners will be updated overnight and will be accurate at 06.00 on Friday 14 May. Check your journey before you travel.

Saturday 15 May

A limited number of services will be running. Please only travel if your journey is essential. Online journey planners will be updated by 13.00 on Friday 14 May. Check your journey before you travel.


Tickets and Refunds
If you no longer want to travel, you can claim a refund from where you bought your ticket, free from admin fees – Find out more about claiming a refund
Tickets for travel between Saturday 08 May and Sunday 16 May, can instead be used on any alternative day up to and including Sunday 16 May.
If you do travel on another day, please travel as close to the time of your original ticket as possible. New reservations should be made where possible.
Using your GWR tickets with other train companies:
You can use your GWR tickets on the following routes:

between London Paddington, London Euston and London Waterloo with London Underground
between London Paddington and Reading with TfL Rail
between London Marylebone, Banbury and Leamington Spa, also, Bicester North for Bicester Village and Oxford with Chiltern Railways
between London Waterloo and Exeter St Davids, between London Waterloo and Reading and also between London Waterloo, Basingstoke, Salisbury and Bristol Temple Meads with South Western Railway
between Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads, between Cardiff Central and Worcestershire Parkway via Cheltenham Spa, between Basingstoke and Birmingham New Street via Reading and between Bristol Temple Meads and Birmingham New Street via Worcestershire Parkway with CrossCountry
between Carmarthen and Cardiff Central via Swansea, between Cardiff Central and Cheltenham Spa and between Newport and Hereford with Transport for Wales
between London Euston and Birmingham New Street with Avanti West Coast
between London Euston, Birmingham New Street and Hereford with West Midlands Railway
We have also arranged for bus companies to accept tickets on relevant routes.

Disruption is likely to continue for some time.

We have had to adapt many of our direct high-speed routes into a series of separate services. Expect your journey to take longer. This may lead to train services being busier than normal and is likely to make social distancing difficult. 

 

London Paddington - Swindon - Bath Spa - Bristol Temple Meads

Thursday 13 May A limited shuttle service will run between Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads. This is being operated by CrossCountry Trains. Your GWR ticket is valid on these trains. At Swindon, connections will be available to/from Didcot Parkway and you may need to change at Reading.  

Customers travelling to/from London Paddington may need to change trains at Swindon. 

Extra shuttle trains will run between Didcot Parkway, Reading, and London Paddington. 

Friday 14 May A shuttle service will run between Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads. This is being operated by both GWR and CrossCountry Trains. Your GWR ticket is valid on these trains. 

Customers travelling to/from London Paddington will need to change trains at Swindon. 

Extra shuttle trains will run between Swindon, Didcot Parkway, Reading, and London Paddington. 

London Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway - Newport - Cardiff Central - Swansea.

Thursday 13 May Special shuttle trains will run, but only between Newport (South Wales) and Reading - calling at Bristol Parkway, Swindon, and Didcot Parkway. 

Customers coming from Swansea, Neath, Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, or Cardiff Central should travel to/from Newport on Transport for Wales services (GWR tickets will be valid) and connect with shuttle train services to/from Reading. 

At Reading alternative GWR services will be available for travel to/from London Paddington. 

Friday 14 May An hourly service will run between London Paddington and Swansea. 

London Paddington - Reading - Taunton - Exeter St Davids - Plymouth - Penzance.

Thursday 13 May All direct trains between London Paddington, Reading, Taunton, Exeter St Davids, Plymouth, and Penzance, in both directions, have been withdrawn. A few services will run between Plymouth and Penzance, serving stations on the route. 

Local trains in Devon and Cornwall are not affected and will continue to run as normal.  Only direct services to/from London Paddington have been withdrawn. 

CrossCountry trains between Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Exeter St Davids, Plymouth, and Penzance will continue to run as normal. GWR customers can use these services. 

South Western Railway (SWR) run trains to/from Exeter St Davids and London Waterloo station which GWR customers can use. 

Friday 14 May An hourly service will run between London Paddington and Plymouth. 

Local trains in Devon and Cornwall are not affected and will continue to run as normal.  Only direct services to/from London Paddington have been withdrawn. 

CrossCountry trains between Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Exeter St Davids, Plymouth, and Penzance will continue to run as normal. GWR customers can use these services. 

South Western Railway (SWR) run trains to/from Exeter St Davids and London Waterloo station which GWR customers can use. 

London Paddington - Reading - Oxford - Evesham - Worcester - Great Malvern - Hereford.

Thursday 13 and Friday 14 May The direct train which normally runs between London Paddington, Reading, and Oxford for stations via Evesham to Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford has been withdrawn. A revised service will run along the Oxford - Evesham - Worcester route. 

CrossCountry trains can be used by GWR customers between Reading and Oxford. 

Customers from the London area for this route will either need to travel from London Paddington to Reading and change there for the CrossCountry trains services to Oxford, or travel on Chiltern Railways services direct from London Marylebone to Oxford. 

Customers from the London area who need to travel to stations in the Worcester area, or destinations via Great Malvern to Hereford, can use Avanti West Coast trains from London Euston to Birmingham New Street and change there for West Midlands trains to Worcester, Great Malvern, and Hereford. 

London Underground will accept GWR tickets for travel between London train terminals. 

London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa

Thursday 13 and Friday 14 May There will be a shuttle service between Swindon and Gloucester. Customers can take other services from London Paddington and Reading to Swindon to connect to the shuttle service.

GWR customers will be able to travel between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa using CrossCountry Trains and Transport for Wales services.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 13, 2021, 08:41:50 pm
How many GWR IETs were in service today ? (reports elsewhere give very varying numbers from 4 up to 20)

There’s a lot of ‘additional’ trains now entered into JourneyCheck for this evening, some to/from Paddington, so availability has increased throughout the day.  I don’t have the exact numbers, but an initial four rising to twenty might not be far from the mark.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 13, 2021, 08:46:41 pm
So, "near normal timetable", eh? Which "normal" would that be, I wonder.

Did you click on the "see latest update' button?

No - but the data on that page only cover today and tomorrow, so must have been put up this morning.

Perhaps I should have also asked:  how many days into the future count as "coming" ones?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 14, 2021, 05:16:26 am
Summary for today, extracted from JourneyCheck

11.5.2021 Almost all of the GWR High Speed Train fleet is out of service at present.
14.5.2021 Many of the GWR High Speed Train fleet is out of service at present.

Friday 14 May

* An hourly service will run between London Paddington and Swansea.

* Trains between London Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham Spa will run as a shuttle service between Swindon and Gloucester only.

* An hourly service will run between London Paddington and Plymouth.

* Customers travelling to/from London Paddington [to Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads] will need to change trains at Swindon.  A shuttle service will run between Swindon and Bristol Temple Meads. This is being operated by both GWR and CrossCountry Trains. Your GWR ticket is valid on these trains.

* Extra shuttle trains will run between Swindon, Didcot Parkway, Reading, and London Paddington.

* The direct train which normally runs between London Paddington, Reading, and Oxford for stations via Evesham to Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford has been withdrawn. A revised service will run along the Oxford - Evesham - Worcester route.

* Train services between Bedwyn and London Paddington, will require a change of train at both Newbury and Reading.

Further details in on each line group board and in the main passenger thread at http://www.passenger.chat/24974

London to Bath and Bristol - http://www.passenger.chat/24980
London to Taunton, Devon and Cornwall - http://www.passenger.chat/24981
London to Cardiff and Swansea - http://www.passenger.chat/24982
London to Stroud, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa - http://www.passenger.chat/24983
London to Oxford, Worcester and Hereford - http://www.passenger.chat/24984
London to Newbury and Bedwyn - http://www.passenger.chat/24985

Edit - to clarify Swindon - Bristol Temple Meads shuttle


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2021, 08:51:09 am
There’s a lot of ‘additional’ trains now entered into JourneyCheck for this evening, some to/from Paddington, so availability has increased throughout the day.  I don’t have the exact numbers, but an initial four rising to twenty might not be far from the mark.

17 IET units required for today’s train plan.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 14, 2021, 09:25:48 am
From the Swindon Advertiser (https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19300932.total-crimes-recorded-wiltshire-fell-last-year---hate-crime-stalking-domestic-abuse-increased/) (URL may change - looks like admin error at the Adverister!)

Quote
Mark Hopwood, GWR managing director, said: “Our customers have shown great patience over the past couple of days, and I am grateful for their understanding as we have worked with Hitachi to allow trains to return safely. This news will allow us to run some additional services today and reintroduce more consistent robust timetables for customers after the weekend.

“The industry has come together to help support those travelling – with other operators allowing each other’s tickets to be used on their networks; adding in extra shuttle services to help move people; and in sharing rolling stock to provide it to those who need it most.”

My bolding.

It has been good to see the industry coming together across TOCs; so often, they do (and much praise due) under emergency / crisis situations.   Can we look forward to that as the norm?  I'm conscious of the "wrong owner of fuel" issue at Exeter very recently, which lead (as I understand it) to several days of trains replaced by buses from Axminster to Exeter, and wonder if under management contracts and the new Shapps-Williams regime (to be published in August, but we don't know which August) such issues won't arise.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 14, 2021, 09:29:41 am
Presumably, over the coming days and weeks, the number of available IET units can only reduce as cracks are going to propagate more quickly than a Repair Plan can be devised and implemented.

Or maybe, as the cracks in these 17 are closely monitored, the experience gained will allow more stopped trains to run.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2021, 09:49:16 am
AIUI the length of cracks varies quite substantially, with many (the large majority?) being tiny.  Therefore with daily inspections and a couple of units away at a time when the repair programme starts, there should only be a limited affect on the timetable going forward.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 14, 2021, 09:53:42 am
Presumably, over the coming days and weeks, the number of available IET units can only reduce as cracks are going to propagate more quickly than a Repair Plan can be devised and implemented.

Not sure on that presumption.  If the average age of the 80 or so GWR sets is 4 years, it suggests that things may have been going wrong undetected at a rate of 20 units a year - one every 2 weeks or so.   I think I saw a repair time of 3 or 4 days per unit, so that suggests that they can be fixed twice as fast as they are going wrong.    Which logic has just as many presumptions in it as your original presumption  ;D

AIUI the length of cracks varies quite substantially, with many (the large majority?) being tiny.  Therefore with daily inspections and a couple of units away at a time when the repair programme starts, there should only be a limited affect on the timetable going forward.

Exactly!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 14, 2021, 10:00:19 am
From the Swindon Advertiser (https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/19300932.total-crimes-recorded-wiltshire-fell-last-year---hate-crime-stalking-domestic-abuse-increased/) (URL may change - looks like admin error at the Adverister!)

Quote
Mark Hopwood, GWR managing director, said: “Our customers have shown great patience over the past couple of days, and I am grateful for their understanding as we have worked with Hitachi to allow trains to return safely. This news will allow us to run some additional services today and reintroduce more consistent robust timetables for customers after the weekend.

“The industry has come together to help support those travelling – with other operators allowing each other’s tickets to be used on their networks; adding in extra shuttle services to help move people; and in sharing rolling stock to provide it to those who need it most.”

My bolding.

It has been good to see the industry coming together across TOCs; so often, they do (and much praise due) under emergency / crisis situations.   Can we look forward to that as the norm?  I'm conscious of the "wrong owner of fuel" issue at Exeter very recently, which lead (as I understand it) to several days of trains replaced by buses from Axminster to Exeter, and wonder if under management contracts and the new Shapps-Williams regime (to be published in August, but we don't know which August) such issues won't arise.

Yes - And as I said in a recent post, I think that the new regime has already de facto come into existence:

 
Raises the age old question again - what's the point of franchising?

But we don't have franchising any more.  They are all management contracts.  AIUI franchising is dead. 

Dead - but there is a something of a legacy ... when (eventually!) we see "Williams", we may see negatives of that legacy tidied up.  Seems everyone has been so busy dealing with other events that Williams is a bit later than intended!  :D

Of course, it's now "Shapps-Williams", which rather gives away the fact that the new system will be based largely on political considerations. Previous governments in recent times - both Conservative and Labour - have had to satisfy a majority based on Middle England voters who were Conservative with a small "c", and who were instinctively suspicious of anything that smacked of "nationalisation". However, the current Johnson Conservative administration has to satisfy a majority based on Northern voters who are Labour with a small "l", who dont really have a problem with nationalisation, and who just want the government to do something - anything - to improve their lot.

However, my recent research into SENRUG and the Northumberland Line (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=24571.msg304642#msg304642) has given me an intriguing insight into who is currently advising the government on transport matters, and what exactly it is they are advising. Basically, the current crop of special advisors is using as its reference point the last time they think that public transport was part of a nationalised system under a Conservative administration and appeared to be working, and with both bus and rail they landed in the early to mid 1980's.

In the case of buses, this means the era where the big, regionalised subsidaries of the National Bus Company had been broken down into smaller, more locally focused units that had not yet been deregulated/privatised and thus could still be relatively easily integrated with the municipal bus companies, and with rail and other public transport modes. In the case of rail, this means the era of the sub-£1 billion railway, of cut-price rail reopenings, and of the "glory days" of Network SouthEast.

The modern equivalent structures they are putting in place are Bus Back Better (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/bus-back-better), and for rail, I believe that they will go for a more localised version of sectorisation that has the mid-section of Network SouthEast as its inspiration. The DfT will set a broad overall strategy, goals and service standards, but ask the rail industry to work out how to implement them. The TOCs will have their own management structure and oversight, and decide about scheduling, marketing, what infrastructure enhancements they require, and rolling stock specifications - probably wise given recent events. Network Rail will own, maintain, and where required, enhance and build new infrastructure.

Indeed, there are signs that key rail industry players are already working de facto to this new structure. To give some examples - Andrew Haines, in a recent speech (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=24945.0), appeared to acknowledge that Network Rail will need to provide what the DfT, TOCs and customers actually want, rather than what Network Rail think they should have.  The DfT - despite it being their duff rolling stock specification that started the sequence of events that led to the current disruption - have told the TOCs that they want the that disruption sorted, and to work out for themselves how to sort it.  The TOCs, at least by the look of early indications, appear to be working together to try and sort it as best they can.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 14, 2021, 02:23:48 pm
Some more authoritative news, from Clarence Yard on railforums. Out of 93 GWR units, 38 are fit to run, 16 need some servicing (sterilisation!), and 6 exiled to sidings haven't been looked at yet. Subtraction suggests that 33 are not usable, though I guess further work might change that a bit. But it's still a lot.

He also says that, of a number of possible causal factors, the specification of the material used to make the bolster is currently a focus of attention. I found that a bit surprising, but then probably there will be other factors involved as well.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 14, 2021, 02:57:30 pm
Just in from GWR

Quote
Dear Graham
 
Following Mark’s email yesterday, we have just issued a media release with our updated timetable plan which you can view here.
 
It confirms that from Monday we will be able to deliver the majority of our summer timetable (around 90% of our pre-Covid level timetable).  There are some changes to a small number of early and late services, and we will be operating turbo services from Bedwyn to Newbury, connecting with Class 387 services at Newbury, but generally services should operate as planned for the summer, including our planned additional weekend services to support extra leisure travel.
 
We may also need to operate some trains with five cars instead of ten, and as spare sets will be limited there could be some short notice changes, but we feel confident that the plan we have put together will work.  It will be updated into industry information systems overnight so customers will be able to check journeys for next week from Saturday morning. 
 
Our advice remains to check before travel, but we are no longer advising not to travel on any routes.
 
We will of course keep a close eye on things and will continue to keep you updated.
 
Best wishes
 
Jane

With "view here" taking you to:


Quote
Great Western Railway is pleased to announce that it expects to be able to operate 99% of its planned timetable from Monday after the re-introduction of the majority of its long-distance fleet.

Hitachi’s fleet of 800 Series trains was removed from service across the UK as a precaution last weekend when cracks were found on some trains. After further rigorous safety checks involving ORR’s HM Railway Inspectorate, GWR is now beginning to reintroduce trains with a more regular service for passengers.

The timetable includes

London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads: Half-hourly
London Paddington and Plymouth/Penzance: Hourly to Plymouth with services extended to Penzance every two hours
London Paddington and South Wales (via Bristol Parkway): Half-hourly during peak, hourly outside peak times
London Paddington to the North Cotswolds via Oxford: Hourly
London Paddington and the South Cotswolds (Cheltenham/Gloucester): Hourly.
Local stopping services will continue to operate as planned, and additional long-distance train services will be provided at weekends to accommodate summer increases in visitors to Devon and Cornwall.

GWR will operate Intercity Express Trains alongside additional trains brought in from other areas of the UK rail network to provide its long-distance services. With a reduction in available Class 800 trains, some very early morning and late evening services will not operate, and Intercity Express Train services between London Paddington and Newbury will be replaced by Class 387 electric trains (where customers can join a connecting train to Bedwyn).

The service recovery plan includes thorough inspections by specialist teams before trains leave the depot and trains will only re-enter service if they meet agreed safety criteria. Working with Hitachi Rail, the rail regulator will continue to carry out rigorous oversight to ensure robust processes are being followed.

Trains on some routes may be less frequent than usual and train availability could vary, for a number of reasons, so passengers should continue to check before they travel next week.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 14, 2021, 03:59:24 pm
I smell a rat !

"90%" train service but with several dozen trains out of service, and with those remaining being subject to extra checks, how exactly ?

A connecting service via Reading or Newbury is better than no trains, but hardly a return to normal. Remember that pre covid that GWR struggled to run a full service of full length IETs due to "normal" faults and failures.
And a single 5 car unit from London is NOT normal.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 14, 2021, 04:04:42 pm
that'll be 90% service in my book.....and you're posts are getting very boring & repetitive. Sorry


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: rower40 on May 14, 2021, 04:07:17 pm
So, "near normal timetable", eh? Which "normal" would that be, I wonder.
The new one. ::)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Celestial on May 14, 2021, 04:17:57 pm
that'll be 90% service in my book.....and you're posts are getting very boring & repetitive. Sorry
Seconded. Any forum where a contributor repeatedly says the same thing for years is the poorer for it.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 14, 2021, 04:34:34 pm
that'll be 90% service in my book.....and you're posts are getting very boring & repetitive. Sorry
Seconded. Any forum where a contributor repeatedly says the same thing for years is the poorer for it.

Gentlemen (or should I say "everyone") ... I have a report in my intray suggesting this is verging on the personal.  Please don't let it stray over the line.  Thanks.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 14, 2021, 05:10:53 pm
Well if there were 17 IETs out today, I saw two of them.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/ietmay211.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/ietmay212.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: infoman on May 14, 2021, 06:12:53 pm
Mark Hopwood was interviewed on a train on ITV West local news.
Strange that ITV west put up in-vision sub titles for the interview
then put the reporters name OVER the in-vision sub titles
Then broke away to show footage of a train with Mark Hopwood still talking and no in-vision sub-titles
Have a look on ITV West plus one just after 7pm(friday)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 14, 2021, 06:28:05 pm
GWR tweeted Mark on a train earlier today - suspect it was this that they showed - it had subtitles....


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 14, 2021, 06:35:21 pm
that'll be 90% service in my book.....and you're posts are getting very boring & repetitive. Sorry
Seconded. Any forum where a contributor repeatedly says the same thing for years is the poorer for it.

Let's be honest, we are all capable of being stuck records at times, aren't we? aren't we?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: infoman on May 14, 2021, 06:59:38 pm
ChrisB thank you for the info.

On BBC West they had a still of the green stripe livery from a few years ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris Irwin was interviewed in the car park area outside of Swindon train station.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 14, 2021, 07:05:17 pm
A further snippet of real information from Clarence Yard is that the material in question is A7N01S-T5 and its suitability for the corrosive environment is in question. That's obviously eminently Googleable, and the top hits mostly say this is an alloy much used in high-speed train bodies, and it suffers from stress corrosion cracking (SCC). The alloy's main components, other than aluminium, are zinc, magnesium, manganese, plus variable amounts other elements. The corrosion usually comes from chlorides, but apparently the process inside the cracks involves hydrogen.

This form of cracking does specialise in sudden failures, unexpected because the cracking is internal, so maybe we should be thankful that it was spotted before that happened. It has been known for ages, but by all accounts it is still hard to predict or control, or even to find by inspection. Hitachi's job was of course to manage all such risks, including the hard ones, so there's no excuses there - except, perhaps, in a specification that wasn't accurate. But could the UK train environment for all fleets (i.e. not just the 802s that venture past Dawlish) be saltier than elsewhere (e.g. Japan), and than was specified? That doesn't sound likely ...  but we must await further intelligence.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 14, 2021, 08:19:58 pm
A further snippet of real information from Clarence Yard is that the material in question is A7N01S-T5 and its suitability for the corrosive environment is in question. That's obviously eminently Googleable...

Indeed, and it seems to gave been a favourite research topic for the budding metallurgist (not me - guitarist once) or stress engineer for quite a few years. I read a bit of this paper from 2016 (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302971976_Stress_Corrosion_Cracking_Behavior_of_A7N01S-T5_Aluminum_Alloy_Welded_Joints). I have no idea what it says, other than that hydrogen can be an issue as you said. The pictures are good, though equally meaningless to my untrained eye. The point is, though, that one assumes all these matters were considered, and the choice of alloy was deemed sufficient for the job awaiting it. That will be occupying minds for some little while.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 15, 2021, 05:07:42 am
From JourneyCheck:

Saturday 15 May

"A number of Class 800 series Hitachi trains in use by several train companies, including GWR, were withdrawn from service earlier this week as a precaution. After completing rigorous safety checks, we will begin reintroducing train services. Trains on some routes will be less frequent than usual, and your journey might take longer than it normally would. "

"We're running a reduced timetable as we reintroduce services after safety checks. Trains might be busier than normal. Check your journey before you travel."

Local and regional trains are not affected and will continue to run as normal.
 
There are no through services between London Paddington & Cheltenham Spa.
 
A shuttle service will operate between Swindon and Gloucester only where onward connections are available.

The direct train which normally runs between London Paddington, Reading, and Oxford for stations via Evesham to Worcester, Great Malvern and Hereford has been withdrawn. A revised service will run along the Oxford - Evesham - Worcester route.

An hourly service will operate between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads.
 
Extra shuttle trains will run between Swindon, Didcot Parkway, Reading, and London Paddington.

Most GWR long distance services between London Paddington and Penzance via Exeter St Davids & Plymouth are expected to operate.

Most GWR long distance services between London Paddington and Swansea via Bristol Parkway & Cardiff Central are expected to operate.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 16, 2021, 07:37:31 am
JourneyCheck this morning (Sunday 16th May 2021) - no new line updates, but the reports are timestamped this morning.  Amended trains are in the journey planners.   In brief:

* London to Swansea, London to Bristol, London to Plymouth running about hourly
* Shuttle services running Oxford to Worcester,  Swindon to Cheltenham Spa, Bedwyn to Reading

There are a few reported "shortforms" such as

Quote
11:30 London Paddington to Paignton due 14:59
Facilities on the 11:30 London Paddington to Paignton due 14:59.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 9.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 16, 2021, 03:33:38 pm
With UNCONFIRMED reports suggesting that "dozens" of GWR IETs are unavailable, it seems very surprising that an only slightly reduced service is being offered.

So is the only slightly reduced service  a "fiddle" achieved by declaring a significantly reduced service to be the "new normal"
Or are more IETS available than has been suggested ?
As well as the issue of cracks, I would expect a few units to be unavailable due to routine servicing and unrelated random mechanical faults.

So, so does anyone have actual figures for GWR IETs
1)number of units available for use.
2)number of units stopped due to cracks.
3) number of units unavailable due to routine servicing or unrelated mechanical failures.

And other data, such as reasonably expected changes in the above.

I appreciate that some members feel that my remarks about these trains are unduly frequent, or overly critical, and am therefore limiting such remarks.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 16, 2021, 04:08:44 pm
From yesterday, we had a figure of 54-60 out of 93 (58 5-car and 35 9-car) units expected in service.Those are full fleet numbers, so there's no margin for maintenance or failure.

Now the man on the spot, Clarence Yard, has just given an update on railforums - 59 now with more to be added during today. That can only mean that some of those previously signed off long-term sick have been given a fit note. That's not unreasonable, given that the general strategy has been a precautionary one: stop trains on suspicion, and then look for evidence that they can, after all, be operated with close monitoring.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 16, 2021, 04:09:26 pm
I don't have answers to your questions, but I've been practicing being a politician and answering a different question in such a way you won't notice it's not what you asked.   Ooops ...  ;D

Comparing what was expected for Summer 2021 when the December 2019 timetable was introduced, you may see:

2 an hour Bristol to London via Parkway Superfast - 8 trains not running
Still running 2 an hour via Chippenham

1 an hour Cardiff to London - 4 trains not running
Still running hourly Swansea to London
Also electric shuttle London to Swindon

1 an hour Bedwyn to London - 3 trains not running
Running electric to Newbury for turbo shuttle

1 every 2 hours semifast Exeter to London - 3 trains not running
Alternate Plymouth exprsses calling between Reading and Taunton

1 an hour London to north Cotswold line - 6 trains not running
Turbo shuttle Oxford to Worcester

1 every hour Cheltenham Spa to London - 5 trains not running
Turbo shuttle Swindon to Gloucester
Also electric shuttle London to Swindon

I make that about 30 IET diagrams, with perhaps half a dozen each of Turbo and 387 diagrams filling in with shuttles.  What normality you compare to, though, is an interesting question. It might very much depend on traffic levels when and where 5, 9 and 10 cars were  expected to be needed and will be expected to be needed this summer.  Or indeed whether a 15 minute Paddington to Swindon service rather than a 10 minute service is adequate for a while.

I wonder where the turbos are coming from ... units that will be required for MetroWest, perhaps, or is there a risk of 2 cars on the Summer Saturday Weymouth trains?

Details / correction to the above welcome.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 16, 2021, 04:20:53 pm
I appreciate that some members feel that my remarks about these trains are unduly frequent, or overly critical, and am therefore limiting such remarks.

At least no-one can accuse the trains themselves of being "unduly frequent" !


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 16, 2021, 04:26:46 pm
I expect Tornado will be kept in steam just in case.

Several crystal ball predictions looking on shaky ground.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 16, 2021, 05:13:38 pm
My understanding from prior to this problsm was that 70 IET units are required to service what would have been the new May timetable on a werkday. So 59 is only 11 short of that requirement whicjh in no one’s vocabulary could be described as “dozens”


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 16, 2021, 05:23:56 pm
Looks like the Paddington-Exeter/Plymouth/Paignton semi fasts are running next week.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 16, 2021, 07:47:40 pm
There's now a picture of the new phase 2 cracking, but first here's the one from phase 1 in April again (the previous picture has vanished). This was "liberated" from the NIR (national incident report) that prompted all 80x and similar fleets to be examined. As always any comments of mine can only be superficial.

That looks to me like fatigue cracking in form, and its location isn't so unlikely given the oscillating loads on it. The bracket under that piece attaches not only the yaw damper bracket but also a vertical link to the anti-roll bar, which is probably more relevant in this context. (I'm sure there's a vertical damper or two somewhere as well, but haven't spotted them yet.)

While I did think at first that was a single casting, on second thoughts (and looks) there is weld metal visible behind the screw head (or nut). The whole bolster may even have been made from many little plates, all welded, like they were cut from a sheet of balsa with an X-acto knife and glued.

The picture of the phase 2 crack apparently was put out by Mark Hopwood on LinkedIn - for some reason. What strikes me about that is how straight it is, like two pieces of metal placed next to each other for welding but next fixed. Or, perhaps, that the weld was made on the other side, and has cracked allowing the join this side to move.

In this case there no obvious source of the kind of cyclic stresses that would lead to fatigue. That probably explains the initial precautionary overreaction, and the accompanying chorus of scratched heads.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: RailCornwall on May 16, 2021, 08:38:11 pm
Not a regular user of Sunday Evening services, but looking at tiger tonight it seems a fairly full service is operating across Cornwall this evening. Tomorrow will be telling.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 16, 2021, 10:25:28 pm
There’s been a lot of stock movements today, IET’s and other, to try and get everything back to where it needs to be for tomorrow.  I doubt it’ll be perfect, but hopefully far better than many, including myself, envisaged a few days ago.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 17, 2021, 11:32:23 am
I don't have answers to your questions, but I've been practicing being a politician and answering a different question in such a way you won't notice it's not what you asked.   Ooops ...  ;D

Comparing what was expected for Summer 2021 when the December 2019 timetable was introduced, you may see:

2 an hour Bristol to London via Parkway Superfast - 8 trains not running
Still running 2 an hour via Chippenham

1 an hour Cardiff to London - 4 trains not running
Still running hourly Swansea to London
Also electric shuttle London to Swindon

1 an hour Bedwyn to London - 3 trains not running
Running electric to Newbury for turbo shuttle

1 every 2 hours semifast Exeter to London - 3 trains not running
Alternate Plymouth exprsses calling between Reading and Taunton

1 an hour London to north Cotswold line - 6 trains not running
Turbo shuttle Oxford to Worcester

1 every hour Cheltenham Spa to London - 5 trains not running
Turbo shuttle Swindon to Gloucester
Also electric shuttle London to Swindon

I make that about 30 IET diagrams, with perhaps half a dozen each of Turbo and 387 diagrams filling in with shuttles.  What normality you compare to, though, is an interesting question. It might very much depend on traffic levels when and where 5, 9 and 10 cars were  expected to be needed and will be expected to be needed this summer.  Or indeed whether a 15 minute Paddington to Swindon service rather than a 10 minute service is adequate for a while.

I wonder where the turbos are coming from ... units that will be required for MetroWest, perhaps, or is there a risk of 2 cars on the Summer Saturday Weymouth trains?

Details / correction to the above welcome.



That number of trains that are "not running" but that do not count as cancellations does sound to me like a fiddle to make things look better than they are.

And the report that GWR are only short of 11 IETs is better than the "dozens" suggested elsewhere but it is still a significant shortfall.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Wizard on May 17, 2021, 11:48:33 am
The trains that grahame refer’s to are not in the timetable for the most part, they were already removed as a result of the pandemic and lower passenger numbers.

A quick glance at journeyplan suggests there are 0 cancelled trains today. A number of long distance services are short formed, but that’s quite an achievement, especially with today being the first day of the new timetable and a few extra trains running (Bristol back to half hourly). A good effort from everybody involved there, considering how things were last Monday.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 17, 2021, 11:54:29 am
That number of trains that are "not running" but that do not count as cancellations does sound to me like a fiddle to make things look better than they are.

I think you missed some of the subtle points of Graham's post, which he flagged himself in the first line of his post.   ::)

The only 'fiddle' would be if the new Summer 2021 timetable that started yesterday had been further amended since it was published before the IET issues were discovered.  As it is, that timetable is running largely as advertised, and was based on what demand is expected over the summer.

And the report that GWR are only short of 11 IETs is better than the "dozens" suggested elsewhere but it is still a significant shortfall.

But still way better than all of your predictions foresaw.  It's all going rather well so far today, given the upheaval of last week.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on May 17, 2021, 12:06:14 pm
Thomas Ableman - now MD of Snap Travel Tech (on-demand coach services) and previously a director at Chiltern Trains, writes a daily blog - today he looks at what went wrong & how current systems prevented GWR from a quick recovery - worthwhile read -

https://www.freewheeling.info/blog/class-800-debacle


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 17, 2021, 01:02:41 pm
Thomas Ableman - now MD of Snap Travel Tech (on-demand coach services) and previously a director at Chiltern Trains, writes a daily blog - today he looks at what went wrong & how current systems prevented GWR from a quick recovery - worthwhile read -

https://www.freewheeling.info/blog/class-800-debacle

An excellent article (member mirror (here) (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/freewheeling_20210517.pdf)) - in amongst the points:

Quote
Like all train companies at the moment, GWR is paid to run trains, not to get people to their destinations. The importance of precisely who the customer is becomes so visible in a crisis like this.

Because GWR thinks in terms of trains, not people (and is paid to do so), the automatic corporate response is to publicise a list of train routes that would not be running.

Even after an entire week, the only information available to customers was a list of alternative services based around railway geography. Remember, most passengers don’t know railway geography. If all you know is that you live in Bath and want to be in London ...

Indeed - and subconsciously, I suppose, I was aware and trying to update some threads here to help.  Far, far too little - you did, indeed, need to know railway geography to understand alternatives last week ... and had it carried on into this week, I was seriously wondering about an underground style map!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 17, 2021, 01:15:01 pm
A quick glance at journeyplan suggests there are 0 cancelled trains today. ...

There is, however, some slight of hand.  All direct (through) trains from Bedwyn to London (an example I was alerted to) have been cancelled - except they're not showing up as cancelled ... JourneyCheck shows services taken out of the journey planner in the last 48 or 72 hours (I think it is) and these were taken out prior to that.  So JC doesn't think they're cancelled, but the customers will!!

There is a shuttle running from Bedwyn to Newbury ...  or in Freewheeling terms "Passengers travelling from Hungerford to London should take a local train to Newbury at 5 minutes after every hour and change there for a local train to Reading, changing again for a connection to London.  You will have a wait of around 55 minutes at Newbury.  In some hours, there are expresses from Newbury to Reading and London which will be considerably faster, but you will still have a significant wait at Newbury and slower journey than normal".


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 17, 2021, 02:24:26 pm
My understanding from prior to this problsm was that 70 IET units are required to service what would have been the new May timetable on a werkday. So 59 is only 11 short of that requirement whicjh in no one’s vocabulary could be described as “dozens”

Not even quite one dozen.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 17, 2021, 04:19:48 pm
Thomas Ableman - now MD of Snap Travel Tech (on-demand coach services) and previously a director at Chiltern Trains, writes a daily blog - today he looks at what went wrong & how current systems prevented GWR from a quick recovery - worthwhile read -

https://www.freewheeling.info/blog/class-800-debacle

An excellent article (member mirror (here) (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/freewheeling_20210517.pdf)) - in amongst the points:

Quote
Like all train companies at the moment, GWR is paid to run trains, not to get people to their destinations. The importance of precisely who the customer is becomes so visible in a crisis like this.

Agree whole-heartedly about the article, and about the important question of who the customer is.

I've posted elsewhere about my other half's experiences with travelling to and from London last week. She reports that, when the Turbo shuttle from Worcester came into Oxford, there was an 'all-change' announcement about getting the CrossCountry service to Reading, but there was no mention of the possibility of catching a Chiltern train to Marylebone.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 17, 2021, 06:04:44 pm
I feel a bit uneasy about quoting so much from one source in another forum - as if it's somehow improper. But maybe an exception can be made for Clarence Yard, posting on railforums, as this is clearly someone involved in fleet management at GWR, and GWR know about it. Maybe not quite semi-official, but certainly a privileged source.

This morning's update included:
Quote
The metal appears to be suffering from Stress Corrosion Cracking, a condition that will worsen over time as environmental conditions and duty cycle both contribute to the propagation rate. Every 80x unit will require remedial attention when the SCC reaches a certain point, either in the jacking plate and/or in the yaw bolster assembly.

As at this morning, 63 out of the 93 GWR IET sets are available for traffic. The full service requirement for the pre-Covid timetable is 80.

There's the expected flood of short-forms on JourneyCheck, showing that every unit is running on its own now, It only takes a few services taken out completely to make up any further deficit, though I'm sure there is still no margin of cover for failures.

On the subject of stress corrosion cracking, I'm still puzzled by the lack of the right kind of stress. You'd expect a crack like this one to be promoted by a force pulling it open, and it's hard to see that happening. But a following post referred to stresses created during manufacture, presumably thermally due to welding. I don't think there's any point trying to imagine what sort of stresses they would be. For a start, you'd need a good idea of the shape of this thing in 3D and its make-up; even then it'd be too hard on the poor old brain. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 17, 2021, 06:28:41 pm
I feel a bit uneasy about quoting so much from one source in another forum - as if it's somehow improper.

From a Coffee Shop viewpoint, members are welcome to quote from here under usual "quotes for comment" rather than "ripping off huge amounts of material" style, and please consider individual member's copyright especially buy not limited to pictures.

But ... (and I know it's the opposite direction to you were asking) ... please go ahead,  dropping our name in there and adding a link back.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eXPassenger on May 18, 2021, 12:50:16 pm
I feel a bit uneasy about quoting so much from one source in another forum - as if it's somehow improper. But maybe an exception can be made for Clarence Yard, posting on railforums, as this is clearly someone involved in fleet management at GWR, and GWR know about it. Maybe not quite semi-official, but certainly a privileged source.

This morning's update included:
Quote
The metal appears to be suffering from Stress Corrosion Cracking, a condition that will worsen over time as environmental conditions and duty cycle both contribute to the propagation rate. Every 80x unit will require remedial attention when the SCC reaches a certain point, either in the jacking plate and/or in the yaw bolster assembly.

As at this morning, 63 out of the 93 GWR IET sets are available for traffic. The full service requirement for the pre-Covid timetable is 80.

There's the expected flood of short-forms on JourneyCheck, showing that every unit is running on its own now, It only takes a few services taken out completely to make up any further deficit, though I'm sure there is still no margin of cover for failures.

On the subject of stress corrosion cracking, I'm still puzzled by the lack of the right kind of stress. You'd expect a crack like this one to be promoted by a force pulling it open, and it's hard to see that happening. But a following post referred to stresses created during manufacture, presumably thermally due to welding. I don't think there's any point trying to imagine what sort of stresses they would be. For a start, you'd need a good idea of the shape of this thing in 3D and its make-up; even then it'd be too hard on the poor old brain. 

There are comments that chloride can influence this type of cracking.  I wonder if the fact that Japan does not use salt for deicing but the UK does has an impact.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 18, 2021, 01:04:34 pm
63 sets out of 80 available sounds like a shortfall of 17, rather worse than the 11 sets short reported elsewhere in this thread.

The widespread use of salt in the UK for de-icing might be a factor in the type of cracking reported, but should have been foreseen.
Any in any case, salt is primarily applied to roads not to railway lines, and road salt would only affect the railway in limited locations such as road bridges over railway lines, or railways and roads in very close proximity.

Seawater at Dawlish might be a factor, but resistance to the well known conditions at that place was meant to have been an essential requirement of the IET designs.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 18, 2021, 01:34:23 pm
63 sets out of 80 available sounds like a shortfall of 17, rather worse than the 11 sets short reported elsewhere in this thread.

Clarence Yard said 80 units were required for the pre-COVID timetable, not the current one.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Clan Line on May 18, 2021, 02:44:21 pm
I suppose we should be grateful that the man who missed this slight crack on a bridge he was inspecting in the USA didn't work for Hitachi/GWR. He is now looking for work - probably having trouble finding that too !
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Mf30TyF/CNN.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hJNZ3XCH)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TonyK on May 18, 2021, 08:26:40 pm

Quote
The metal appears to be suffering from Stress Corrosion Cracking, a condition that will worsen over time as environmental conditions and duty cycle both contribute to the propagation rate. 

I think this must be the metal lurgy I read about somewhere.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 18, 2021, 09:08:03 pm
Seawater at Dawlish might be a factor, but resistance to the well known conditions at that place was meant to have been an essential requirement of the IET designs.

Won’t be a factor for some of the fleet as they don’t work West of England services. 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: infoman on May 19, 2021, 04:26:14 am
Just a thought on salt,I noticed over the years platform staff never brushed  snow onto the tracks any more.
The snow is now brushed away from the platform edges.
In the not much electric days of engines and coache's(STEAM) the snow from the platforms and the tracks would just collect underneath and eventually melt and drop off
Now with so much electrics I presume network MIGHT have isued a directive that snow is not now allowed to be brushed onto the tracks


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on May 19, 2021, 10:21:38 am

Article on the Cl 800 problems on the Modern Railways website with more detail to come in the June edition

https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/hitachi-800-series-trains-cracks?utm_campaign=KMR%20Social&utm_content=167326488&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-385365654


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ray951 on May 19, 2021, 11:17:16 am

Article on the Cl 800 problems on the Modern Railways website with more detail to come in the June edition

https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/hitachi-800-series-trains-cracks?utm_campaign=KMR%20Social&utm_content=167326488&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-385365654
and also 'Stress corrosion causes class 800 cracks'
https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/stress-corrosion-cause-series-800-cracks (https://www.keymodernrailways.com/article/stress-corrosion-cause-series-800-cracks)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 20, 2021, 02:54:21 pm
Sir Humphrey to Grant Shapps:

"At least no-one's mentioned those pesky IET's today..."


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 21, 2021, 01:56:19 pm
At the risk of re-igniting a thread that's just dampened down ... do I note that a few of the London - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham services are still "canned" between London and Swindon ... looks like a mixture of shuttle and London services.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2021, 02:51:12 pm
At the risk of re-igniting a thread that's just dampened down ... do I note that a few of the London - Swindon - Gloucester - Cheltenham services are still "canned" between London and Swindon ... looks like a mixture of shuttle and London services.

Yes, I must admit I hadn't spotted that, but they are all running as advertised on the timetable for the route, B7, so again that was the plan before the IET availability problems.

Roughly every three hours off-peak a train only runs between Cheltenham and Swindon, giving a total of 4 circuits per day.  This shuttle is booked to be worked by an IET - it's 9-car 800305 today.

Mark Hopwood did tell staff to expect IET availability to fluctuate a bit, but that there was a plan to deal with that - the logical step would be to replace those IET shuttles with a DMU to release another unit, or replace more of the through services on the route with a shuttle if more than one is needed.  Not ideal for Golden Valley customers, but the obvious sacrificial lamb after the Bedwyn service.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 21, 2021, 03:26:13 pm
Roughly every three hours off-peak a train only runs between Cheltenham and Swindon, giving a total of 4 circuits per day.  This shuttle is booked to be worked by an IET - it's 9-car 800305 today.

Ironically, the formation change (in a broadgage-positive direction - its l-o-n-g-e-r!) is what flagged it up for me - I hadn't noticed either!

Quote
16:30 Swindon to Cheltenham Spa due 17:31
Facilities on the 16:30 Swindon to Cheltenham Spa due 17:31.
Will be formed of 9 coaches instead of 5.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 21, 2021, 03:35:46 pm
"broadgage-positive" - Now there's a slogan with legs  ;D


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 22, 2021, 07:48:37 am
90 shortforms listed today (to be fair in amongst them are a couple of "long forms"!)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on May 22, 2021, 08:32:38 am
90 shortforms listed today (to be fair in amongst them are a couple of "long forms"!)
Is this a one off Saturday or a sign of things to come at weekends?

Could become troublesome, particularly on services to/from the South West if this continues into the summer. Let’s hope not.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 22, 2021, 09:30:11 am
90 shortforms listed today (to be fair in amongst them are a couple of "long forms"!)
Is this a one off Saturday or a sign of things to come at weekends?

Could become troublesome, particularly on services to/from the South West if this continues into the summer. Let’s hope not.

Indeed, especially with the long weekend and the first school holiday (half term) coming up where meaningful travel will be permitted.

BBQ season approaching too which will probably have the usual effect on Sundays with staff (non) availability.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 22, 2021, 10:27:01 am
Yes it’s critical that the weekend service has as few short forms as possible, especially on the WoE services and tourist hotspots like Bath.

I don’t think Sunday staffing will be quite as big an issue as usual this year.  The lack of additional shifts during the week for those who like to work them up until now has meant additional Sunday’s are like gold dust and swooped upon quickly if they become available!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 22, 2021, 10:53:13 am
90 shortforms listed today (to be fair in amongst them are a couple of "long forms"!)
Is this a one off Saturday or a sign of things to come at weekends?

Could become troublesome, particularly on services to/from the South West if this continues into the summer. Let’s hope not.

I think it means rather less than you imagine. I noted a huge number of short (and long) formations (about 80, I think) on Monday 17th, but later this week I found none on occasions. Now, that wasn't due to a huge rise in stock availability, was it? Some recovery was to be expected, with a few extra units being checked and reassessed, and ways being found to get more of the standard plan to still work, but all off them? I can think of a more likely explanation.

First, what are these planned lengths? (I note that JourneyCheck's wording sneakily avoids labelling them as normal or anything else!) They are not in the timetable, and don't need to be fixed when the timetable is worked out (I think - except perhaps where a path imposes a limit of length less than some trains that operate). They must be in another part of the operations plan that is used, essentially, within the TOC.

So I reckon the sudden loss of short forms last week must mean that the reference "normal" lengths based on the modified operations plan (including the timetable, but also stock diagrams, staff rosters, and more) were loaded into whatever feeds JouneyCheck. And the reason we are back with about 80 of them again will mean that they haven't loaded these numbers for Saturday (yet).

Incidentally, I've always thought reporting train lengths this way was a bit odd, because the "normal" length isn't published anywhere. The information can still be useful, if you are a regular (even, in a few cases, one who remotely monitors train lengths on Tiger!), or if you assume the planned length matches demand. Of course it doesn't always, and if there's enough choice which unit to "borrow" then the shortened train may be the one that needs it least. But that's all guesses, and really for most of us it's a hint rather hint a clear guide.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 22, 2021, 11:02:28 am
PS: to the above - that's rather an engineer's answer, isn't it? An operations manager would say "I switched that bit off as it wasn't showing anything useful". That's as good a response, and more likely as an explanation!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 23, 2021, 07:51:57 am
90 shortforms listed today (to be fair in amongst them are a couple of "long forms"!)
Is this a one off Saturday or a sign of things to come at weekends?

Could become troublesome, particularly on services to/from the South West if this continues into the summer. Let’s hope not.

Well, "only" 45 shortforms listed today, including some of the usually very busy Devon/Cornwall to London Sunday afternoon services, but an improvement on yesterday in this respect I guess.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2021, 11:28:58 am
As ever, you need to take Journeycheck with a pinch of salt - for example, the 11:03 PAD-PLY and 15:10 PLY-PAD are being operated with a 9-car, not a 5-car as listed.

If anyone’s out and about it would be interesting to know how busy the trains are?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: GBM on May 23, 2021, 11:48:45 am
And a few West Country cancellations of 'local trains' due to staff shortage.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 23, 2021, 12:58:23 pm
As ever, you need to take Journeycheck with a pinch of salt - for example, the 11:03 PAD-PLY and 15:10 PLY-PAD are being operated with a 9-car, not a 5-car as listed.

If anyone’s out and about it would be interesting to know how busy the trains are?

Trains heading north and east from Totnes are very busy.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2021, 03:43:18 pm
Can I ask how busy?  Full and standing busy, or social distancing maximums busy?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 23, 2021, 04:43:12 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 23, 2021, 04:52:15 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.

Hopefully they can sort this out in time for next (Bank Holiday) weekend and half term.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 23, 2021, 05:12:35 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.

Hopefully they can sort this out in time for next (Bank Holiday) weekend and half term.

Seems unlikely in my view.
All GWR IETs have been inspected and those judged fit for use are presumably back in service.
No near term plans for repairs, certainly not by next weekend.
It therefore seems unlikely that availability of IETs will increase significantly by next weekend. There might be a slight increase if units stopped for routine service or unrelated mechanical issues return to availability by next weekend.

Extra rolling stock was considered but with little result.
Two sets of loco hauled coaches hired from Riviera trains were proposed but presumably considered too embarrassing/too expensive/too hard. 
A couple of full length loco hauled trains would provide a lot of extra capacity, embarrassing though.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 23, 2021, 05:37:35 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.

Hopefully they can sort this out in time for next (Bank Holiday) weekend and half term.

Seems unlikely in my view.
All GWR IETs have been inspected and those judged fit for use are presumably back in service.
No near term plans for repairs, certainly not by next weekend.
It therefore seems unlikely that availability of IETs will increase significantly by next weekend. There might be a slight increase if units stopped for routine service or unrelated mechanical issues return to availability by next weekend.

Extra rolling stock was considered but with little result.
Two sets of loco hauled coaches hired from Riviera trains were proposed but presumably considered too embarrassing/too expensive/too hard. 
A couple of full length loco hauled trains would provide a lot of extra capacity, embarrassing though.

I thought you were arranging assistance from The Flying Scotsman and Tornado?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2021, 05:39:41 pm
Efforts to secure additional stock are still ongoing.  I don't think it'll be loco and coaches unless things get really desperate as they are expensive and slow.  Some more Hitachi units borrowed from somewhere, TPE perhaps, could be an option?  Or more 387s.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on May 23, 2021, 05:47:52 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.

Hopefully they can sort this out in time for next (Bank Holiday) weekend and half term.

Seems unlikely in my view.
All GWR IETs have been inspected and those judged fit for use are presumably back in service.
No near term plans for repairs, certainly not by next weekend.
It therefore seems unlikely that availability of IETs will increase significantly by next weekend. There might be a slight increase if units stopped for routine service or unrelated mechanical issues return to availability by next weekend.

Extra rolling stock was considered but with little result.
Two sets of loco hauled coaches hired from Riviera trains were proposed but presumably considered too embarrassing/too expensive/too hard. 
A couple of full length loco hauled trains would provide a lot of extra capacity, embarrassing though.

I thought you were arranging assistance from The Flying Scotsman and Tornado?

He had Tornado out yesterday for testing...https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/05/steam-locomotive-60163-tornado-to-pass-through-york-and-carlisle-this-saturday.html


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 23, 2021, 06:13:08 pm
Looking at Tiger at Swindon I have seen one service to Weston super Mare and two from Bristol reported as full and standing this afternoon.

All formed of five coaches.

Edit to add:  Also 1C22 Pad to Plymouth via Bristol. Also 5 coaches.

Three questions, bearing in mind each 5 car train ahas around 320 seats, perhaps 100 with social distancing

1. Does "full" mean there are over 100 people on the train, or over 300?

2. When someone presses a button / selecting from a menu to say that a train is beyond capacity and flag it into the system, does it automatically come up with the phrase "full and standing" ... even if in reality under Covid there are 150 people on the train and they'll all be seated - but too close to each other under current guidelines?

3. Are the 100 v 300 figures on social distancing used to make the judgement of what's allowed, even if the leisure travellers - much seen at the weekend - are travelling in bubbles that do not need to distance between each other?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on May 23, 2021, 07:33:31 pm
Can I ask how busy?  Full and standing busy, or social distancing maximums busy?

Not quite full and standing, but most seats taken, so exceeding social distancing maximums.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 23, 2021, 07:36:37 pm
Good questions, Graham.

I must admit I’ve seen nothing getting remotely busy enough where all seats are close to being taken, but I’m a long way from Cornwall so appreciate it might be different down there.

Thanks for that info, Phil.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 24, 2021, 09:32:19 am
There was talk about 387s running to Bristol Parkway, and as of today they are: the first return trip is about to start (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V43480/2021-05-24/detailed).

They seem to be running the few such IET services in the timetable, which last week were often cancelled. Those didn't all call at Didcot, but now these do, taking three minutes extra. They have also been allowed seven minutes more on account of being slower stock.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on May 24, 2021, 10:20:59 am
387 152 paired with 387 165 preparing to leave Bristol Parkway with the 10:19 to London Paddington (running as 9L43)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/387bpw.jpg)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on May 25, 2021, 11:16:08 am
387 152 paired with 387 165 preparing to leave Bristol Parkway with the 10:19 to London Paddington (running as 9L43)

So ... that's all week, and in public service (with 9 headcode, and "reservations compulsory").   Didn't know reservations were done on a 387!

UID V43480, identity 9L43
TSC 25375002, headcode 6422
STP schedule
SSuX - 24/05/2021 to 28/05/2021
Express Passenger
Great Britain (Network Rail, TPS)
Pathed as Electric multiple unit
Planned for 110mph max
Standard class only seating
Reservations compulsory


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 25, 2021, 02:11:38 pm
So ... that's all week, and in public service (with 9 headcode, and "reservations compulsory").   Didn't know reservations were done on a 387!

They are.  ;)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 26, 2021, 02:30:45 pm
Sir Humphrey to Grant Shapps:

"At least no-one's mentioned those pesky IET's today..."

Followed by,

Sir Humphrey to Grant Shapps

"There has been the odd mention of those IETs minister, but they are now yesterdays news, fortunately. Hopefully the public are getting used to the reduced service and will stop moaning"

Grant Shapps "Indeed so, Humphrey, should we put out a statement"

Humphrey "I would not, unless in response to a specific enquiry from someone important. In that case, use the standard message about all working together to face the challenges"

Grant Shapps "Did they find any other trains"

Humphrey "Yes minister, the rail industry responded wonderfully to this unprecedented situation. They even considered some old trains, but we managed to put a stop to that nonsense"

"Why ?"

Humphrey "Our rail industry partners have gone to a lot of trouble to justify the new trains, despite a little negative feedback,  use of old trains might increase criticism of the new ones"

Grant Shapps "Good point" And Humphrey, book my car and driver for the weekend, I shall visit Cornwall"

Humphrey "Yes minister" And by the way minister , I have prepared for your approval a statement only to be released if any of the great unwashed criticise you for driving.

Grant Shapps "I expect to BE DRIVEN,  not to drive"

Humphrey "Of course minister, slip of the tongue, very sorry sir.  The statement says "the minister would have preferred to take the train, in line with our green policies, but due to the popularity of the trains around a holiday weekend, It was reluctantly decided  to use road transport, so as free space for hard working families" A hybrid car was used.

Well that is settled then, enough of all this, glass of port in the club?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Witham Bobby on May 26, 2021, 03:06:27 pm
Sir Humphrey to Grant Shapps:

"At least no-one's mentioned those pesky IET's today..."

Followed by,

Sir Humphrey to Grant Shapps

"There has been the odd mention of those IETs minister, but they are now yesterdays news, fortunately. Hopefully the public are getting used to the reduced service and will stop moaning"

Grant Shapps "Indeed so, Humphrey, should we put out a statement"

Humphrey "I would not, unless in response to a specific enquiry from someone important. In that case, use the standard message about all working together to face the challenges"

Grant Shapps "Did they find any other trains"

Humphrey "Yes minister, the rail industry responded wonderfully to this unprecedented situation. They even considered some old trains, but we managed to put a stop to that nonsense"

"Why ?"

Humphrey "Our rail industry partners have gone to a lot of trouble to justify the new trains, despite a little negative feedback,  use of old trains might increase criticism of the new ones"

Grant Shapps "Good point" And Humphrey, book my car and driver for the weekend, I shall visit Cornwall"

Humphrey "Yes minister" And by the way minister , I have prepared for your approval a statement only to be released if any of the great unwashed criticise you for driving.

Grant Shapps "I expect to BE DRIVEN,  not to drive"

Humphrey "Of course minister, slip of the tongue, very sorry sir.  The statement says "the minister would have preferred to take the train, in line with our green policies, but due to the popularity of the trains around a holiday weekend, It was reluctantly decided  to use road transport, so as free space for hard working families" A hybrid car was used.

Well that is settled then, enough of all this, glass of port in the club?

Brilliant!

You are either Antony Jay or Jonathan Lynn and I claim my £5


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 26, 2021, 05:51:13 pm

Brilliant!

You are either Antony Jay or Jonathan Lynn and I claim my £5


I am neither of the above, nor am I Roger Ford, nor Mr Rees -Mogg. Despite suggestions to the contrary.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: CyclingSid on May 26, 2021, 07:27:08 pm
Quote
So ... that's all week, and in public service (with 9 headcode, and "reservations compulsory").   Didn't know reservations were done on a 387!

They are

Booking for non-existent bike spaces??


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on May 26, 2021, 08:17:25 pm
Yesterday morning, the following were reported as out of service from the GWR IET fleet:

For cracks (mostly yaw bolster rather than jacking point):      8x800-5, 3x800-9, 2x802-5

In checking/NDT:           3x800-5                                      total 16

For other reasons:          2x800-5, 1x802-9                         total 3

From what we've seen, the jacking point cracks don't go far enough round any piece to allow it to drop off. So it would not have been so hard to convince yourself that they can all run safely. Jacking the train, now that's a different proposition. And that logic would not lead to a similar conclusion on the yaw damper mounting.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on May 27, 2021, 01:08:58 pm
Yesterday morning, the following were reported as out of service from the GWR IET fleet:

For cracks (mostly yaw bolster rather than jacking point):      8x800-5, 3x800-9, 2x802-5

In checking/NDT:           3x800-5                                      total 16

For other reasons:          2x800-5, 1x802-9                         total 3

From what we've seen, the jacking point cracks don't go far enough round any piece to allow it to drop off. So it would not have been so hard to convince yourself that they can all run safely. Jacking the train, now that's a different proposition. And that logic would not lead to a similar conclusion on the yaw damper mounting.

Thanks for the update.
From the above, it seems to me that the 13 units stopped for cracks are unlikely to return to service this year as repairs are not even planned as yet.

The 3 units stopped for examination may or may not return to service depending on what is found.

The other 3 units stopped for unrelated reasons will presumably return to use, it does however seem a reasonable supposition that other units will from time to time be stopped for unrelated reasons, and the number of such might tend to remain broadly similar.

The most optimistic forecast that could reasonably be made from the above is therefore
13 units stopped long term, probably for the rest of the year at least.
3 units returned to use after examinations.
3 units returned to service after unrelated issues dealt with.
OPTIMISTIC forecast, long term lack of 13 units.

A more realistic forecast based on the above data would be.
13 units stopped for cracks for the rest of this year.
Of the three units stopped for examination, one returns to service, other two stopped long term.
3 units stopped for unrelated reasons, return to service, BUT other units suffer unrelated  issues, with an average of 3 stopped at any one time.
MEDIUM FORECAST a long lack of about 18 units, varying slightly due to random unrelated faults and varying times to repair.

A reasonably pessimistic forecast would be
About 18 units out of use long term as above.
And about one unit a month withdrawn in addition due to cracks worsening.
18 units short to begin with, rising to about 25 units short by the end of the year.
About 25 units short for most of NEXT year as repairs slower than expected and only keep up with new failures.

Comments ?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 27, 2021, 01:36:21 pm
Well, supply will certainly fluctuate on a day to day basis.  With good availability, like today where there seems to be more carriages in services rather than less, then the current timetable can be provided as advertised.  I’m sure we all hope there are more good days than bad days.

The effect of the longer term repair programme remains to be seen.  And there are a lot of other unknowns, principally what levels passenger ridership return to.  Without social distancing rules there is an awful lot of extra capacity that could be soaked up - I haven’t personally been on a train where the passenger count exceeded 150 people since the pandemic started.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 01, 2021, 10:34:34 am
A lovely bank holiday weekend is over.

The first true test of the railway’s ability to handle quite large passenger numbers in 2021 with social distancing in place.  Sure, numbers were down on pre-COVID levels, but we’re still pretty high.

I was pleased, as I’m sure everyone else was, that IET availability was good throughout the weekend, especially on the key route down to the West Country.

Friday saw a few Bristol<>Paddington’s run as 5-cars. 

Saturday saw no short forms, and a couple of long forms on Swansea trains.  Connected with the football?

Sunday saw a handful of short forms, including a small number of WoE services, and that was also the case on the Monday.

Overall, pretty good though.

Does anyone have any horror stories to report?  My observations were largely based on JourneyCheck, which we all know cannot always be relied upon to be accurate, though it does generally paint a worse picture than is the case on the ground.

On Friday I wanted to get one of the short formed Bristol to London trains at Didcot, but as it pulled in virtually all seats were taken. I could have stood on my own in one of the vestibules, but decided to wait for the following train a few minutes later.  That turned out to be one of the 8-car 387s where I had the carriage to myself at the front...though it was quite a lot busier at the back.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 01, 2021, 12:23:07 pm
Quite a few short formations today by the looks of it?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2021, 02:41:21 pm
Looking at the degree of congestion on the roads, I suspect that many drove to the West country rather than take the train.

Some were still probably thinking of the advice "do not travel by train" issued when the cracks were discovered.
Others were probably still thinking of the risks of catching covid on public transport.

And of course a lot have perhaps previously used the train for holiday travel and vowed "never again" after some of the experiences reported elsewhere on these forums.

And finally it is not just me whom considers the new trains to be worse than the old ones, and to be something best avoided. Look on trip advisor to see what people think.

Train travel is often considered to be hugely expensive, very complex, and increasingly uncomfortable. Driving meanwhile gets cheaper.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on June 01, 2021, 03:40:53 pm
Quite a few short formations today by the looks of it?

Note that roughly a quarter of those are IETs, the rest are smaller DMUs.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2021, 04:11:14 pm
Quite a few short formations today by the looks of it?

Note that roughly a quarter of those are IETs, the rest are smaller DMUs.

Yes, but I suspect that many of the non IET short forms may be an INDIRECT result of IET non availability. For example a turbo being used in place of a cracked IET, resulting in a shortage of units for branch line or secondary services.
Several short forms are reported as being 3 car instead of 5 car, these I suspect to be turbos instead of IETs, resulting in short formation of whatever would have been worked by the turbo.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 01, 2021, 05:53:04 pm
Several short forms are reported as being 3 car instead of 5 car, these I suspect to be turbos instead of IETs, resulting in short formation of whatever would have been worked by the turbo.

Which ones are (or were) listed as 3 vice 5?  I can’t see any.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on June 01, 2021, 05:55:16 pm
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 01, 2021, 05:57:20 pm
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.

Hardly likely to be diagrammed for an IET then!  :D


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on June 01, 2021, 06:09:34 pm
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.

Hardly likely to be diagrammed for an IET then!  :D

I think the point another member was making was that a 5 car Turbo becomes a 3 car turbo on its normal duty and a 2 car turbo on the Bedwyn shuttle, so that the lack of an IET for the latter could mean a shorter train on the former.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on June 01, 2021, 06:13:02 pm
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.

Hardly likely to be diagrammed for an IET then!  :D

Quite a few short formations today by the looks of it?

Note that roughly a quarter of those are IETs, the rest are smaller DMUs.

Yes, but I suspect that many of the non IET short forms may be an INDIRECT result of IET non availability. For example a turbo being used in place of a cracked IET, resulting in a shortage of units for branch line or secondary services.
Several short forms are reported as being 3 car instead of 5 car, these I suspect to be turbos instead of IETs, resulting in short formation of whatever would have been worked by the turbo.

I was responding to the above.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2021, 06:27:23 pm
I can not remember which trains were advised as being 3 car instead of 5 car, but believe that there were several earlier today.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 01, 2021, 06:58:12 pm
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.

Hardly likely to be diagrammed for an IET then!  :D

I think the point another member was making was that a 5 car Turbo becomes a 3 car turbo on its normal duty and a 2 car turbo on the Bedwyn shuttle, so that the lack of an IET for the latter could mean a shorter train on the former.

He made that point, but then a secondary point that read to me that he suspected several 3-car Turbos were replacing 5-car IETs unplanned (post #388).  But that now he can’t remember which ones.  Perhaps he can clarify?  Or point out similar occurrences tomorrow?  I don’t personally remember seeing any today.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Incider on June 01, 2021, 09:04:19 pm
Yesterday morning, the following were reported as out of service from the GWR IET fleet:

For cracks (mostly yaw bolster rather than jacking point):      8x800-5, 3x800-9, 2x802-5

In checking/NDT:           3x800-5                                      total 16

For other reasons:          2x800-5, 1x802-9                         total 3

From what we've seen, the jacking point cracks don't go far enough round any piece to allow it to drop off. So it would not have been so hard to convince yourself that they can all run safely. Jacking the train, now that's a different proposition. And that logic would not lead to a similar conclusion on the yaw damper mounting.

Thanks for the update.
From the above, it seems to me that the 13 units stopped for cracks are unlikely to return to service this year as repairs are not even planned as yet.

The 3 units stopped for examination may or may not return to service depending on what is found.

The other 3 units stopped for unrelated reasons will presumably return to use, it does however seem a reasonable supposition that other units will from time to time be stopped for unrelated reasons, and the number of such might tend to remain broadly similar.

The most optimistic forecast that could reasonably be made from the above is therefore
13 units stopped long term, probably for the rest of the year at least.
3 units returned to use after examinations.
3 units returned to service after unrelated issues dealt with.
OPTIMISTIC forecast, long term lack of 13 units.

A more realistic forecast based on the above data would be.
13 units stopped for cracks for the rest of this year.
Of the three units stopped for examination, one returns to service, other two stopped long term.
3 units stopped for unrelated reasons, return to service, BUT other units suffer unrelated  issues, with an average of 3 stopped at any one time.
MEDIUM FORECAST a long lack of about 18 units, varying slightly due to random unrelated faults and varying times to repair.

A reasonably pessimistic forecast would be
About 18 units out of use long term as above.
And about one unit a month withdrawn in addition due to cracks worsening.
18 units short to begin with, rising to about 25 units short by the end of the year.
About 25 units short for most of NEXT year as repairs slower than expected and only keep up with new failures.

Comments ?

I think some of your sources (or wild speculations) are wide of the mark……


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2021, 10:24:20 pm
Yesterday morning, the following were reported as out of service from the GWR IET fleet:

For cracks (mostly yaw bolster rather than jacking point):      8x800-5, 3x800-9, 2x802-5

In checking/NDT:           3x800-5                                      total 16

For other reasons:          2x800-5, 1x802-9                         total 3

From what we've seen, the jacking point cracks don't go far enough round any piece to allow it to drop off. So it would not have been so hard to convince yourself that they can all run safely. Jacking the train, now that's a different proposition. And that logic would not lead to a similar conclusion on the yaw damper mounting.

This is my source for the number of units unavailable.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 02, 2021, 05:04:42 am
There were some Cardiff - Portsmouths early on which ran short south of Westbury.

Hardly likely to be diagrammed for an IET then!  :D

I think the point another member was making was that a 5 car Turbo becomes a 3 car turbo on its normal duty and a 2 car turbo on the Bedwyn shuttle, so that the lack of an IET for the latter could mean a shorter train on the former.

He made that point, but then a secondary point that read to me that he suspected several 3-car Turbos were replacing 5-car IETs unplanned (post #388).  But that now he can’t remember which ones.  Perhaps he can clarify?  Or point out similar occurrences tomorrow?  I don’t personally remember seeing any today.

The 06-06 Bristol Temple meads to Worcester is reported today as being 3 car instead of 5 car for part of the journey. Source is Journey check.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on June 02, 2021, 06:02:36 am
The 06-06 Bristol Temple meads to Worcester is reported today as being 3 car instead of 5 car for part of the journey. Source is Journey check.

That's a 3 + 2 unit (probably turbo) being replaced by a single unit.  Reading between the lines, the 2 cars which come off at Gloucester at 07:12 normally join a 2 car train that calls there at 07:46 on its way from Worcester Shrub Hill (leaves at 07:07) on its way to Weymouth (11:00).  Today, that's showing as a 3 car off Worcester, so just a single carriage down.   Not quite a direct replacement of an IET by a turbo as is happening on the Bedwyn services.  Of course, this reduction might be explained by the need to find that shuttle unit.

Plans for summer 2020 were for an hourly IET from Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington:
- http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/nrtt20summer/Table%20125.pdf
For summer 2021, one in three of those services are cut back to Cheltenham Spa to Swindon, saving (I think) one IET diagram
- http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/nrtt21summer/Table%20125.pdf
but that has nothing to do with the problems with IET availability unless the Network Rail folks have a reliable Crystal Ball.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 02, 2021, 08:52:45 am
Several short forms are reported as being 3 car instead of 5 car, these I suspect to be turbos instead of IETs, resulting in short formation of whatever would have been worked by the turbo.

The 06-06 Bristol Temple meads to Worcester is reported today as being 3 car instead of 5 car for part of the journey. Source is Journey check.

That’s not an IET diagram, as Graham has pointed out.  Let me know if you can see any others...I can’t.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: CMRail on June 03, 2021, 10:09:52 am
The 06-06 Bristol Temple meads to Worcester is reported today as being 3 car instead of 5 car for part of the journey. Source is Journey check.

That's a 3 + 2 unit (probably turbo) being replaced by a single unit.  Reading between the lines, the 2 cars which come off at Gloucester at 07:12 normally join a 2 car train that calls there at 07:46 on its way from Worcester Shrub Hill (leaves at 07:07) on its way to Weymouth (11:00).  Today, that's showing as a 3 car off Worcester, so just a single carriage down.   Not quite a direct replacement of an IET by a turbo as is happening on the Bedwyn services.  Of course, this reduction might be explained by the need to find that shuttle unit.

Plans for summer 2020 were for an hourly IET from Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington:
- http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/nrtt20summer/Table%20125.pdf
For summer 2021, one in three of those services are cut back to Cheltenham Spa to Swindon, saving (I think) one IET diagram
- http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/nrtt21summer/Table%20125.pdf
but that has nothing to do with the problems with IET availability unless the Network Rail folks have a reliable Crystal Ball.



I noticed this the other week and found it disappointing. We were promised for years an hourly service to London Paddington throughout the day and for many years have endured GWRs go to "problem solving" which involves everyone crams onto a Bristol/South Wales service and change at Swindon whenever there's a slight delay...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: jamestheredengine on June 05, 2021, 02:03:25 pm
There seems to be an amount of doing short-forms on the quiet going on. 1L18, the 1032 Carmarthen to Paddington seems to be not gaining its other 5 carriages at Swansea on a regular basis, with this going unreported on JourneyCheck – this is a really bad train to short-form, as it tends to be an exceptionally busy one (more so than the trains starting at Swansea an hour either side) – there's the factor of the extra riders from West Wales, and that this hits Cardiff at 1215 (i.e. lunchtime). And of course, if they don't report it, no-one can plan to avoid it.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 05, 2021, 03:25:54 pm
Is that on Saturday’s you’re referring to?  If so, it was only booked to be a 5-car today, so I guess it wouldn’t get flagged on JC. 

As you say, it makes it hard to plan if you don’t know what the planned length is, and I agree that particular train should really be a 10.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: jamestheredengine on June 05, 2021, 04:48:12 pm
That might be it. Perverse really, seeing as that particular train is probably busier on Saturdays than during the week. And no-one seems to have told whatever RTT's source of data is of that plan:
31.58
Swansea [SWA]
Pathed as Class 80x on diesel from here
Service reverses here, gains coaches here (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G44516/2021-06-05/detailed)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 11, 2021, 01:19:49 pm
Details of an ORR review:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-lessons-learned-review-hitachi-train-cracks


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on June 11, 2021, 07:00:53 pm
Details of an ORR review:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-lessons-learned-review-hitachi-train-cracks

I find this a bit weird. The content is given as:
Quote
ORR will work with Hitachi’s design and manufacturing teams and all relevant parties to:
● find the root cause of the
    – cracking in the jacking plate
    – cracking at the yaw damper bracket/anti-roll bar end of the bolster
● examine the industry processes relating to
    – identification of the problem
    – assessment of the safety risk
    – withdrawal of the trains from service
    – return of the trains to service
● identify potential improvements

Parts two and three make sense: they involve looking at procedures and processes and how well they worked. But the first part? This, and the first steps in the next part, are:
Quote
The criteria for selecting the materials, the joining methods and any post-joining treatment when designing vehicles to operate for the life of the contract.
● How the design, manufacturing and testing processes addressed the potential for stress corrosion cracking and fatigue cracking in the design.
● Hitachi’s processes to identify cracking in components during the life of the train.
● The background to the identification of the cracks in the bolster area, and how Hitachi managed the subsequent investigation and development of solutions.
● Whether the cracks in the jacking plates could have been found earlier.

So, ORR are going to contribute expertise as mutallurgists, are they? Who'd have thought! Even one step back, if it's about the engineering design and production quality processes, I'm not convinced it's expertise they can claim.

What was the next process in the chain? I think it's the customer's product design acceptance and quality assurance process. I can't work out exactly how that was done or by whom. Note that the requirement/specification probably doesn't say "shall not fall apart" (but we all know it shouldn't) so it may mall under the heading of quality.

There are several kinds of product acceptance process for rail vehicles, of which the main one is for NR, to give a certificate to run on the network. But that's mainly about systems and interfaces - will it work with our track, signals, power supply, and everything else. For those areas, and operational ones, there are safety cases to by filled in too (largely done by Ricardo for the 800s). Apart from crashworthiness, I don't think structural integrity is part of NR's acceptance process.

Now, it would make some sense to look at this area and see whether the various bits worked together well enough. There is also the question of whether this issue (of potential cracking) had safety implication at acceptance, and might that have been found at acceptance time. But none of that is on the ORR's list; instead they will be playing the at being amateur metallurgists.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on June 11, 2021, 07:36:59 pm
Actually, there was no customer in the normal sense (i.e. purchaser) for the IEPs. They were retained by Hitachi (or perhaps formally sold to Agility) to fulfil a kind of lease. Some trains bought by ROSCOS might also not be bought by anyone who would fit as buyer then owner in the railway procedural sense. Note that most trains have been acquired by a TOC to the certification stage, then transferred to a ROSCO in a kind of sale and leaseback.

That makes Hitachi responsible for everything, so their internal quality processes - as customer and manufacturer talking to themselves - are relevant. What requirement they have to meet, and where it is, might be worth a study in itself.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 12, 2021, 08:52:29 am
I can not remember which trains were advised as being 3 car instead of 5 car, but believe that there were several earlier today.

After checking daily for the last couple of weeks, I can confirm I’ve finally found one IET diagram today (on a Paddington<>Oxford diagram) that is being covered by a 3-car turbo on an unplanned basis.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on June 12, 2021, 02:56:36 pm
Details of an ORR review:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-lessons-learned-review-hitachi-train-cracks

I find this a bit weird. The content is given as:
Quote
ORR will work with Hitachi’s design and manufacturing teams and all relevant parties to:
● find the root cause of the
    – cracking in the jacking plate
    – cracking at the yaw damper bracket/anti-roll bar end of the bolster
● examine the industry processes relating to
    – identification of the problem
    – assessment of the safety risk
    – withdrawal of the trains from service
    – return of the trains to service
● identify potential improvements

Parts two and three make sense: they involve looking at procedures and processes and how well they worked. But the first part? This, and the first steps in the next part, are:
Quote
The criteria for selecting the materials, the joining methods and any post-joining treatment when designing vehicles to operate for the life of the contract.
● How the design, manufacturing and testing processes addressed the potential for stress corrosion cracking and fatigue cracking in the design.
● Hitachi’s processes to identify cracking in components during the life of the train.
● The background to the identification of the cracks in the bolster area, and how Hitachi managed the subsequent investigation and development of solutions.
● Whether the cracks in the jacking plates could have been found earlier.

So, ORR are going to contribute expertise as mutallurgists, are they? Who'd have thought! Even one step back, if it's about the engineering design and production quality processes, I'm not convinced it's expertise they can claim.

What was the next process in the chain? I think it's the customer's product design acceptance and quality assurance process. I can't work out exactly how that was done or by whom. Note that the requirement/specification probably doesn't say "shall not fall apart" (but we all know it shouldn't) so it may mall under the heading of quality.

There are several kinds of product acceptance process for rail vehicles, of which the main one is for NR, to give a certificate to run on the network. But that's mainly about systems and interfaces - will it work with our track, signals, power supply, and everything else. For those areas, and operational ones, there are safety cases to by filled in too (largely done by Ricardo for the 800s). Apart from crashworthiness, I don't think structural integrity is part of NR's acceptance process.

Now, it would make some sense to look at this area and see whether the various bits worked together well enough. There is also the question of whether this issue (of potential cracking) had safety implication at acceptance, and might that have been found at acceptance time. But none of that is on the ORR's list; instead they will be playing the at being amateur metallurgists.

It will be more the ORR asking Hitachi to demonstrate via evidence and if the ORR need to expertise they will buy it in.

It is better they are doing this pre accident than as part of a post accident investigation


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on June 19, 2021, 04:05:59 pm
It was expected that Hitachi would instrument an IET (inertial sensors, strain gauges, etc.) and run it as part of their investigation to find out what the bogies have been subjected to. There was a report on railforums that this has been out running under 3Zxx codes, and that this is also to clarify an ongoing dispute with NR as to whether their track is more bent than Hitachi were told. Of course this relates to the issue of these trains' ride as well, though just how good or bad it is is still a matter of argument - it's notoriously subjective.

Looking back, the earliest outing I can see was in 15th (Tuesday). So far the train has been operated out of North Pole, unsurprisingly, by GWR as ECS non-stop. We have had, all booked as STP:

15/6  PAD 3Z91 PNZ 3Z92 PAD
16/6  PAD 3Z10 SWA 3Z11 PAD
17/6  PAD 3Z20 WOS 3Z21 PAD (3Z23 WOS 3Z23 PAD cancelled)
18/6  PAD 3Z91 PNZ 3Z92 PAD
19/6 (PAD 3Z40 SWA 3Z41 PAD cancelled)

and next week some more are already booked:
21/6  PAD 3Z10 SWA 3Z11 PAD
21/6  PAD 3Z20 WOS 3Z21 PAD 3Z23 WOS 3Z23 PAD (presumably both won't run!)
22/6  PAD 3Z91 PNZ 3Z92 PAD
23/6  PAD 3Z10 SWA 3Z11 PAD
24/6  PAD 3Z20 WOS 3Z21 PAD 3Z23 WOS 3Z23 PAD
25/6  PAD 3Z91 PNZ 3Z92 PAD

If you want to look at these, they are easier to spot using RTT with "non-passenger services" selected. .


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on June 19, 2021, 04:31:05 pm
21/6  PAD 3Z20 WOS 3Z21 PAD 3Z23 WOS 3Z23 PAD (presumably both won't run!)

3Z20/21/22 are routed via Evesham but 3Z23 is via Stroud.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on June 19, 2021, 05:25:38 pm
I can see the merit of running a specially instrumented train for test purposes/data gathering, but why run such a service as ECS and not carrying passengers ?
Whilst the weight of passengers and luggage is a small part of the total gross weight, it might possibly be significant and a test train running normally loaded might give more representative data. Sand bags are only a partial substitute as they do not move around.
It is just about possible that the problems are caused by full power at low speeds, as when accelerating away from station stops.
Use on a good selection of passenger workings would be representative of normal use.

I appreciate that test equipment and perhaps staff monitoring this may need a fair bit of space, but surely a 9 car, or a 5+5 with one vehicle locked out of use could be used.
The reduction in passenger capacity would be regrettable, but much less than that caused by withdrawing a whole train from passenger use in order to use it for test purposes.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2021, 09:36:13 am
I’m sure Hitachi are doing it this way for a reason.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on June 20, 2021, 10:19:10 am
I’m sure Hitachi are doing it this way for a reason.

I'd guess the main reason is operational - wanting to run or not run it based on that last recorded readings, change the set-up, repeat a route or do a new one, etc. It's not as if for the primary purpose it's needed for very long.

On the other hand, I can't understand why Hitachi hadn't got a few units fully instrumented from the start (assuming they didn't). Even more obviously, before that during trials and commissioning, wouldn't you want that kind of feedback about how the design was working? After all, some of the fleet have built-in monitoring of OLE and track geometry as standard, as well as forward CCTV. There's no such thing as too much information!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: BBM on July 03, 2021, 12:38:47 pm
BBC Political Correspondent Chris Mason has tweeted the following this morning:

https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1411261195064156165 (https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1411261195064156165)

Quote
Social distancing not really an option on this @gwrhelp train from Swansea to London Paddington. Very busy since Bristol Parkway, standing room only after stopping in Reading.

@GWRHelp
Hi there, sorry to see this Chris. Can you confirm which service you are travelling on please? - Brad

0822 Swansea to London Paddington. The explanation appears to be the train is half its normal length, for some reason.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 03, 2021, 01:23:03 pm
I note the previous train from Reading, a 10-car from Bristol, was late due to an earlier fatality, so that would explain the heavy loadings after Reading, as there had been a twenty minute gap since the previous fast train.

It’s a train that was only booked to be a 5-car, but is one of the ones that should really be a 9/10 car.

As passenger numbers continue to rise, especially at weekends, there will be occasions when social distancing isn’t possible on every train.  I’m afraid that just has to be expected and accepted.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 03, 2021, 03:36:31 pm
I note the previous train from Reading, a 10-car from Bristol, was late due to an earlier fatality, so that would explain the heavy loadings after Reading, as there had been a twenty minute gap since the previous fast train.

It’s a train that was only booked to be a 5-car, but is one of the ones that should really be a 9/10 car.

As passenger numbers continue to rise, especially at weekends, there will be occasions when social distancing isn’t possible on every train.  I’m afraid that just has to be expected and accepted.



Not sure it has to be accepted. Surely it's incumbent on train & platform staff to at least make an effort to prevent this type of scenario in the current environment especially at a station like Reading?

Couldn't announcements be made that the train approaching platform X will be setting down only due to overcrowding? Sure some won't listen but many will.

Elderly/vulnerable people especially will look at this with alarm.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 03, 2021, 03:49:57 pm
Better get used to it.
New shorter trains are the future.
I will let others argue as to the reasons for the short forms, cracks ? other mechanical faults ? only booked to be a 5 car and therefore OK ?

I am not aware of any timetable for repairs, so the present covid mode/cracked train mode looks likely to continue for some years. By which time something else will probably go wrong.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 03, 2021, 10:56:25 pm
Not sure it has to be accepted. Surely it's incumbent on train & platform staff to at least make an effort to prevent this type of scenario in the current environment especially at a station like Reading?

Couldn't announcements be made that the train approaching platform X will be setting down only due to overcrowding? Sure some won't listen but many will.

Yes, every effort should be made to inform and encourage passengers of alternatives, but it must be expected and accepted that social distancing still won’t always be possible.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Electric train on July 04, 2021, 07:39:03 am
Not sure it has to be accepted. Surely it's incumbent on train & platform staff to at least make an effort to prevent this type of scenario in the current environment especially at a station like Reading?

Couldn't announcements be made that the train approaching platform X will be setting down only due to overcrowding? Sure some won't listen but many will.

Yes, every effort should be made to inform and encourage passengers of alternatives, but it must be expected and accepted that social distancing still won’t always be possible.

And the 'social distancing' will be changed after 19 July to where possible with the onus on us as individuals to manage ourselves; I expect the mandatory wearing of face coverings  well be changed to it being an encouraged personal choice 


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 09, 2021, 03:39:19 pm
Six more Class 387s are being leased for GWR services to support the IET shortfall, along with the three c2c units already being leased.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 09, 2021, 04:32:14 pm
That should help a bit.
From where are these extra 387s being obtained ?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 09, 2021, 05:45:12 pm
They are GTR units usually used on Gatwick Express services.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 09, 2021, 07:54:22 pm
Thanks for the info.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 21, 2021, 06:17:15 am
Over 20 short formed IETs today, much worse than most recent days. I doubt that IET availability has actually altered that much in only a day or two.

Much more likely IMHO, is that the lack of serviceable IETs has been largely "hidden" by lack of train crew. Few if any cancellations today for want of train crew has shown up the lack of trains.

Presumable mostly cracked trains, though perhaps some heat related failures as well.

IET advocates will no doubt argue, firstly that train length does not much matter now that social distancing is no longer required, and secondly that some trains shown as half length may actually run as full length.








Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on July 21, 2021, 06:51:12 am
IET advocates will no doubt argue, firstly that train length does not much matter now that social distancing is no longer required, and secondly that some trains shown as half length may actually run as full length.
On your second point let’s hope so. Always concerns me when I see London-Penzance trains 5 vice 9/10; especially at this time of year.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on July 21, 2021, 07:00:52 am
IET advocates will no doubt argue, firstly that train length does not much matter now that social distancing is no longer required ...

I'll take the bait ...

Quote
05:59 Westbury to London Paddington due 07:36
Facilities on the 05:59 Westbury to London Paddington due 07:36.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

With classic commuter numbers so low ... I REALLY doubt this service will be crowded and even with social distancing, I don't think it will be exactly full.  But having said that, there many be a very different story when the same train leaves Paddington again and heads west.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 21, 2021, 09:11:35 am
On your second point let’s hope so. Always concerns me when I see London-Penzance trains 5 vice 9/10; especially at this time of year.

One of the two Penzance diagrams listed has 800302 allocated to it, a 9-car.  The other is currently a 5-car, 802018 - that’s on the 10:06 PNZ-PAD.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: jamestheredengine on July 21, 2021, 09:31:29 am
Maybe we should do what Midland Mainline did with their useless half-length Meridians: they shuffled intermediate cars between sets to end up with a decent number of 7-car units. If my maths is right, we could reform the IETs either as:
  • 69x 8-car trains
  • 1x 5-car train
  • 23x redundant pairs of cab cars
Or as:
  • 83x 7-car trains
  • 1x 6-car train
  • 9x redundant pairs of cab cars


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 21, 2021, 01:27:11 pm
I cant support re-forming IETs into 6 car, 7, or 8 car units because so doing would "lock in" reduced capacity as such units would not be able to work in pairs.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 21, 2021, 04:48:50 pm
On your second point let’s hope so. Always concerns me when I see London-Penzance trains 5 vice 9/10; especially at this time of year.

One of the two Penzance diagrams listed has 800302 allocated to it, a 9-car.  The other is currently a 5-car, 802018 - that’s on the 10:06 PNZ-PAD.

Just to add that the next working of that diagram, 16:04 PAD-PNZ, looks like it’s now a 10-car (802016/20).  The 18:36 and 20:04 PAD-PLY also appear to be 9-car rather than shortformed. Journeycheck not updated.

I make these posts for the sake of accuracy and to demonstrate that what you see often isn’t what you get.  Not through some desperate attempt to defend IETs, which I think I have several shortcomings as I’ve said before.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on July 21, 2021, 06:45:39 pm
Has the monitoring campaign by that instrumented unit completed? I can't see any runs at the moment. And did anyone see it on its peregrinations? Or take its picture?

Someone (malc-c) has captured the similar Azuma unit, and posted the picture on railfoirums (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/strange-wiring-on-an-azuma-801-228.220108/).
(https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/s3170002-jpg.99972/)

I can't help thinking I could have done a neater job than that! Though I suspect that withstanding the windage at 125 mi/hr is probably more important than aesthetics. And I think that provides at least half an explantion of why it didn't run in passenger service. What that picture doesn't tell you is how many bogies were instrumented; the text says this wring was "all down the length of the train", so presumably all of them (as is only logical).


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 21, 2021, 11:34:24 pm
One of the worst "updates" today was the 17-04 from London to Penzance. Started from Reading and terminated at Westbury.

A cancellation in all but name, due a train fault.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 22, 2021, 10:52:22 am
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on July 22, 2021, 12:32:06 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 22, 2021, 02:22:13 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

One thought.....could the crew of the 0905 which failed not have run the 1006 which didn't have a crew?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 22, 2021, 02:31:12 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

Yes, that would explain the staff shortages, but not the number of short formations and cancellations due to train faults. These are presumably due to cracks, heat related faults or other mechanical failures.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on July 22, 2021, 02:35:09 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

One thought.....could the crew of the 0905 which failed not have run the 1006 which didn't have a crew?

It depends on were the 1006 is short of a crew!  For example.

The crew for the 0905 could work to Truro to then go onto the Falmouth, if there is no relieving driver, the train is stranded at Truro or there could have been similar issues further up the line.  
Or the crew on the 0905 might work to Exeter to then work one back to Penzance in which case they would taxi the driver up to Exeter.
A whole host of scenarios


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on July 22, 2021, 02:39:28 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

Yes, that would explain the staff shortages, but not the number of short formations and cancellations due to train faults. These are presumably due to cracks, heat related faults or other mechanical failures.

I suppose it depends on wether track and trace has hit the maintenance staff leaving them short.
I’d also guess that some short formations occur where you have a driver booked to bring sets off the depot who is taken off that job to cover a service train.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 22, 2021, 04:18:41 pm
I suppose it depends on wether track and trace has hit the maintenance staff leaving them short.

Good point.  I’m sure there are shortages there as well as a result of being pinged.  It is after all badly affecting the whole country now.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 22, 2021, 07:49:06 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

One thought.....could the crew of the 0905 which failed not have run the 1006 which didn't have a crew?

It depends on were the 1006 is short of a crew!  For example.

The crew for the 0905 could work to Truro to then go onto the Falmouth, if there is no relieving driver, the train is stranded at Truro or there could have been similar issues further up the line.  
Or the crew on the 0905 might work to Exeter to then work one back to Penzance in which case they would taxi the driver up to Exeter.
A whole host of scenarios


Yes it's a perfectly logical suggestion, but one with quite a complex set of reasons as to why it often can't happen.

Especially with the longer distance journeys, there is usually some stumbling block regarding the crew.  This particular train has four drivers allocated to it to do separate stints between Penzance and Paddington, and three train managers.  Almost certainly if they had been held back an hour to work the next train (rather than travelling on the next available service) it would have implications on their next workings for at least one of them and could end up causing a whole load of reactionary delays worse than the original problem.

You don't need to have four drivers and three train managers of course, a Penzance to Paddington could be done with two of each - and sometimes is - but trying to optimise staff utilisation (and also laziness in terms of diagramming sometimes) means that increasingly it seems short stints are used to cover certain routes.  Not to mention the fact that when staff are at a premium as they are now, they are often given different parts of several normal diagrams to get everything covered.  The elastic band only stretches so far.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on July 23, 2021, 07:56:00 pm
A month ago, the ORR produced a "Passenger impact review – Hitachi class 800 trains" (https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2021-06/2021-06-25-passenger%20impact%20review-hitachi-class-800-trains.pdf). The have analysed what decisions the operators took, though only briefly, and have more to say on the information provided (completeness, consistency, etc.) as well as assistance of refunds. There are several such secitons - here, for example, is their assessment of GWR's "Consistency and clarity of travel information 10 – 21 May":
Quote
Our examination of the information on GWR’s website found that suitable prominence had been given to information about the disruption and this was largely both clear and consistent throughout the period checked. We noted only minor differences between the information provided by GWR and National Rail Enquiries.

GWR continued to extend its “do not travel” message on a daily basis but was also able to expand on the information provided for each route that was affected. Journey planners were initially updated daily, and it broke down the longer distance routes into a number of shuttle services. However, although we have seen useful internal maps showing the shuttle services that were operating, these were not seen in any of our checks on the information available to passengers.

By Sunday 16 May, an amended timetable was loaded into journey planners for travel through to Friday 21 May. With over 60 trains available for service by 17 May and the timetable stabilised, ticket acceptance with other operators was withdrawn. We noted that some services used different rolling stock (Class 387 services on some Bristol Parkway to Paddington journeys) which was not advertised specifically; facilities available to passengers on these services were not those usually provided, for example seat reservations, and the difference could only be identified by the longer journey time (owing to a lower top speed).

They also wrote individually to each operator (including NRE and the ticket sellers), copies to be found with the press release. (https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/train-operators-kept-passengers-well-informed-during-cracks-issue-regulator-finds).


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bobm on July 23, 2021, 09:59:13 pm
Consecutive cancellations this morning. One train failure, the second due to crew shortage- return trips also cancelled - more unhappy customers, more traffic on the roads for want of a reliable alternative;

09:05 Penzance to London Paddington due 14:27
10:06 Penzance to London Paddington due 15:29

Not much they can do when Track n Trace is ripping through depots up and down the country. The government should have envisaged this and acted accordingly

One thought.....could the crew of the 0905 which failed not have run the 1006 which didn't have a crew?

It depends on were the 1006 is short of a crew!  For example.

The crew for the 0905 could work to Truro to then go onto the Falmouth, if there is no relieving driver, the train is stranded at Truro or there could have been similar issues further up the line.  
Or the crew on the 0905 might work to Exeter to then work one back to Penzance in which case they would taxi the driver up to Exeter.
A whole host of scenarios


Yes it's a perfectly logical suggestion, but one with quite a complex set of reasons as to why it often can't happen.

Especially with the longer distance journeys, there is usually some stumbling block regarding the crew.  This particular train has four drivers allocated to it to do separate stints between Penzance and Paddington, and three train managers.  Almost certainly if they had been held back an hour to work the next train (rather than travelling on the next available service) it would have implications on their next workings for at least one of them and could end up causing a whole load of reactionary delays worse than the original problem.

You don't need to have four drivers and three train managers of course, a Penzance to Paddington could be done with two of each - and sometimes is - but trying to optimise staff utilisation (and also laziness in terms of diagramming sometimes) means that increasingly it seems short stints are used to cover certain routes.  Not to mention the fact that when staff are at a premium as they are now, they are often given different parts of several normal diagrams to get everything covered.  The elastic band only stretches so far.

If I remember rightly the 10:06 is the first long distance train of the day from Penzance formed off an incoming service.  That didn’t run due to a shortage of crew so even if you could step up the crew from the 09:05 there wouldn’t have been a train for them to work.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 26, 2021, 05:36:24 am
Over 20 short formed IETs again today, And that is with the reduced "covid mode" timetable.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2021, 11:12:02 am
Good to see a couple of new phrases for the 2021 edition of Broadgage Bingo.  ;)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 26, 2021, 05:56:56 pm
Good to see a couple of new phrases for the 2021 edition of Broadgage Bingo.  ;)

When do you expect IETs to return to full availability, that is to operate the pre-covid time table.
And without "cheating" by stating that train length does not matter much now that social distancing is over.
Or that there are fewer commuters (whilst forgetting about extra leisure travel)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 26, 2021, 07:07:42 pm
I don’t expect that the Dec ‘19 timetable, and expected enhancements to the Bristol service the following May, will ever return.

The service will likely be structured differently to cope with a different market bias, which will be much more leisure based, but that might take several years to settle down into the finished article.

I expect IET availability to hover around the current 60 units a day, with some good days and some bad days, until the repairs are made.  I expect most of the time that will provide more than enough seats, but there is no doubt that there is a risk some routes will struggle to cope at times over the next couple of months.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 27, 2021, 02:07:39 pm
Over 20 short formed IETs again today, And that is with the reduced "covid mode" timetable.

None listed for the rest of today.  Not sure if there were (m)any earlier on?  Good days and bad days…


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on July 27, 2021, 05:00:59 pm
Over 20 short formed IETs again today, And that is with the reduced "covid mode" timetable.

None listed for the rest of today.  Not sure if there were (m)any earlier on?  Good days and bad days…

Agree. IET availability is partly random due to maintenance requirements and the occurrence and rectification of minor faults.

The number of short formations is also related to the staffing situation which is best described as "insufficient but very variable" Suppose that on a bad day that only 50 IETs are available, with a full staff that would lead to dozens of short forms.

If however dozens of IET services were cancelled for want of staff, then just 50 units could operate the reduced number of services at full length.

Conversely a good day for IETs might see 65 units  available, but a lot of short forms if the staffing was improved.

I expect the staffing situation to improve long before the cracks are mended.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: MVR S&T on August 07, 2021, 09:46:16 pm
It is rumoured that a fix for the cracks is in place and will, for the GWR units, be carried out at Eastleigh. Other units 'up north'


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 22, 2021, 02:19:55 am
It is rumoured that a fix for the cracks is in place and will, for the GWR units, be carried out at Eastleigh. Other units 'up north'

I wonder what the timescale is ?

Until recently, the scale of cracked or otherwise not available trains has been largely hidden by the pandemic reducing demand, and by staff shortages. The long term timetable reduction also assists in covering up the problem.

I very much doubt that a reliable service of full length trains will return this calendar year, and have doubts about NEXT years holiday season.

I appreciate that IET supporters will point to recent days with very few short formations, but these seem to be days with dozens of cancellations.

The general poor quality of IETs suggests that even when the cracks are fixed, that something else will go wrong. They are still vulnerable to waves at Dawlish (an "essential requirement") and still fail to couple and uncouple reliably in the specified time (another "essential requirement")

At the beginning of this failed project I suggested that short formed trains/inadequate capacity  would be a problem. This forecast I based not on any detailed technical analysis but simply on first hand experience of other* major new train fleets that reduced capacity either permanently or least for many years.
IET supporters said that this fleet renewal would be different, would be ample, and with "Japanese levels of reliability" and in particular that all peak trains leaving London would be full length. This last has presumably become a future aspiration, or been ditched entirely.

For how many years of the planned 27.5 years service life are routine stock shortages acceptable, before admitting this to be a failed project.

*The three previous major stock renewals are
1) Networkers replaced older slam door DC EMUs. Mixed 4 car and 6 car trains in the rush hour replaced 8 car trains.
2) 4 car and 5 car Voyagers replaced HSTs and loco hauled trains on cross country, too short from day one, and still too short many years later.
3) Waterloo to Exeter service reduced from full length loco hauled trains to 3 car units. Badly overcrowded for many years until some trains were eventually lengthened to the same length as the old ones.



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2021, 09:34:29 am
Off he goes again…


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 22, 2021, 12:34:20 pm
Off he goes again…

Do you consider the project to have been a success then ?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: a-driver on August 22, 2021, 12:39:51 pm
It is rumoured that a fix for the cracks is in place and will, for the GWR units, be carried out at Eastleigh. Other units 'up north'

The general poor quality of IETs suggests that even when the cracks are fixed, that something else will go wrong. They are still vulnerable to waves at Dawlish (an "essential requirement") and still fail to couple and uncouple reliably in the specified time (another "essential requirement")


Uncoupling/coupling issues have largely been resolved.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2021, 01:10:27 pm
Indeed.  I can’t remember the last time I heard of a coupling failure.

Do you consider the project to have been a success then ?

Some elements have been a success, others not so.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: bradshaw on August 22, 2021, 04:02:10 pm
More trouble for Hitachi 800 Series vehicles

From Roger Ford's INFORMED SOURCES e-Preview September 2021
( http://live.ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2021.08.20.03.26.archive.txt)

Quote
In recent months, readers could have been forgiven for assuming that the name of this column had changed to ‘Fatigue cracking monthly (incorporating Informed Sources). And here we go again.
A further notification was issued in July, following the discovery of cracking in a third location in  Hitachi 800 Series vehicles.  These latest cracks are in the lower face of coupler support plates and confirmed to be another case of stress corrosion, similar to that found in the jacking points.

Auto-couplers on the end vehicles and the fixed couplers between intermediate vehicles are attached to the vehicle by four 30mm diameter bolts which pass through the support plate and the body-shell itself. Subsequent Finite Element Analysis (FEA) has demonstrated that the securing bolts, plus the welding of the support plate to the car body, would prevent detachment or catastrophic failure of the support plate. As a result trains can remain in service with defective support plates, pending a long-term proposal for repair and prevention of further cracking.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on August 22, 2021, 05:30:40 pm
It is rumoured that a fix for the cracks is in place and will, for the GWR units, be carried out at Eastleigh. Other units 'up north'

So just a rumour then, not born out by the post above


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 22, 2021, 06:08:39 pm
I was not aware of the THIRD location affected by cracks when I described the IETs as a failed project.

I did however state that  "The general poor quality of IETs suggests that even when the cracks are fixed, that something else will go wrong."

That was perhaps overly optimistic since in fact something else HAS gone wrong wrong before even one existing crack has been fixed.

With three different areas affected by fatigue cracks already, what are the odds on these units lasting the planned 27.5 years without more faults ?

Hitachi SHOULD be paying significant compensation for the ongoing non-availability of these units. Does anyone know if such payments have actually been received ? Or as I cynically suspect, has some wiggle room been found by Hitachi.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: ChrisB on August 22, 2021, 06:27:43 pm
They will be on a supply contract of set number per day.

Penalties apply if this isn’t achieved.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on August 22, 2021, 06:34:37 pm
I was not aware of the THIRD location affected by cracks when I described the IETs as a failed project.

I did however state that  "The general poor quality of IETs suggests that even when the cracks are fixed, that something else will go wrong."

That was perhaps overly optimistic since in fact something else HAS gone wrong wrong before even one existing crack has been fixed.

With three different areas affected by fatigue cracks already, what are the odds on these units lasting the planned 27.5 years without more faults ?

Hitachi SHOULD be paying significant compensation for the ongoing non-availability of these units. Does anyone know if such payments have actually been received ? Or as I cynically suspect, has some wiggle room been found by Hitachi.

No, that's not what has happened. This wasn't a new occurrence, after repairs, so it can't tell us anything about what will happen once that is done.

The same kind of cracking has been found in other parts of the vehicle body made in the same way. That is not really surprising; one would expect similar behaviour under similar conditions. The investigation will include a review of the engineering processes involved in producing the trains, leading to a proposed remedy. And for each method considered, short of the most drastic ones, they will look at what can be done to stop the same processes continuing (or at least slow them enough to last a lifetime). I can't see much point in betting on the outcome of that.

Edit: to insert the sentence I forgot


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Clan Line on August 22, 2021, 08:11:50 pm
I was not aware of the THIRD location affected by cracks .....................

No, that's not what has happened. The same kind of cracking has been found in other parts of the vehicle body made in the same way.


Broadgage says:  "THIRD Location"
Stuving says: "other parts of the vehicle body"

What exactly is different between these two statements ?????      Except that Broadgage has used the singular whereas Stuving has used the plural.(Thinking ahead perhaps ?)

Having worked for a very large Government Dept for a number of years I can already see the way that this will shake out. The Govt will (as usual) totally fail to enforce its contractual rights. If they did Hitachi, and everyone else, would never bid for any work again, and everyone knows it - so the Govt is over a barrel. Eventually an "agreement" will be reached..........delays and disruption will be ignored and the extra costs will be "equally shared" - 80% to the taxpayer and 20% to the contractor.  Think .... Crossrail, HS2, Hinkley Point, Aircraft carriers, Nuclear submarines, Nimrod.... et al.     Been there, seen it, done it !!..............


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on August 22, 2021, 10:05:49 pm
I was not aware of the THIRD location affected by cracks .....................

No, that's not what has happened. The same kind of cracking has been found in other parts of the vehicle body made in the same way.


Broadgage says:  "THIRD Location"
Stuving says: "other parts of the vehicle body"

What exactly is different between these two statements ?????      Except that Broadgage has used the singular whereas Stuving has used the plural.(Thinking ahead perhaps ?)

Ah - one of my intended sentences seems to have gone missing, for which I must aplogise. I'll have to repair the original.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 22, 2021, 10:09:42 pm
I was not aware of the THIRD location affected by cracks .....................



Broadgage says:  "THIRD Location"
Stuving says: "other parts of the vehicle body"




"Let's call the whole thing off"  :)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on August 22, 2021, 10:21:28 pm
"Let's call the whole thing off"  :)

Almost tried that a couple of months ago ... found that rail travel was even harder with all the IETs parked up while the crack risk was fully evaluated ...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: jamestheredengine on August 25, 2021, 12:58:23 pm
There seem to be an unusually high number of short formations today – could this be due to the coupling issue?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 25, 2021, 03:59:21 pm
Possibly, but could also be slightly improved staff numbers. The degree of failed trains is often largely concealed by staff shortage. If a train is cancelled for want of staff, then who cares if it WOULD have been short formed. When staff are available, then more short formations result.

Or it might be unrelated breakdowns.
Or it might be an increase in mark one cracks.
Or mark two cracks.
Or as you suggest it might be the new cracks affecting the couplings.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 26, 2021, 02:42:27 pm
There seem to be an unusually high number of short formations today – could this be due to the coupling issue?

Just daily availability fluctuations.  Yesterday wasn’t great, but today there are few traincrew related cancellations and few IET short forms.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 26, 2021, 02:58:35 pm
There seem to be an unusually high number of short formations today – could this be due to the coupling issue?

Just daily availability fluctuations.  Yesterday wasn’t great, but today there are few traincrew related cancellations and few IET short forms.

There are a number of short forms today from London to Plymouth & Penzance.

Not the smartest move on the Thursday before the August Bank Holiday weekend, and with COVID infections on the rise in the region which may well be made worse by overcrowded trains.

I am sure someone will respond by saying "it's better than no train at all".

Remember folks, increased leisure travel is the railways future. This isn't the way to encourage it. ::)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 26, 2021, 03:26:33 pm
There seem to be an unusually high number of short formations today – could this be due to the coupling issue?

Just daily availability fluctuations.  Yesterday wasn’t great, but today there are few traincrew related cancellations and few IET short forms.

There are a number of short forms today from London to Plymouth & Penzance.

There's all sorts of wrong reports formation wise on journeycheck for today.  The only trains leaving Paddington all of today for Plymouth/Penzance that are not 9/10 cars are the 14:37 and 16:36 PAD-PLY Semi-Fasts, and the 18:04 PAD-PNZ.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 26, 2021, 07:21:41 pm
There seem to be an unusually high number of short formations today – could this be due to the coupling issue?

Just daily availability fluctuations.  Yesterday wasn’t great, but today there are few traincrew related cancellations and few IET short forms.

There are a number of short forms today from London to Plymouth & Penzance.

There's all sorts of wrong reports formation wise on journeycheck for today.  The only trains leaving Paddington all of today for Plymouth/Penzance that are not 9/10 cars are the 14:37 and 16:36 PAD-PLY Semi-Fasts, and the 18:04 PAD-PNZ.

Just seen a tweet from someone on the 5 car 1804 PAD-PNZ, described as "packed, rammed and hideous", people standing throughout......let's hope COVID is taking time off for the Bank Holiday too.

Utter madness to short form this train on this date.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 26, 2021, 07:52:34 pm

Just seen a tweet from someone on the 5 car 1804 PAD-PNZ, described as "packed, rammed and hideous", people standing throughout......let's hope COVID is taking time off for the Bank Holiday too.

Utter madness to short form this train on this date.

IET supporters will no doubt say
Half a train is better than no train.
The service is better than looking at journey check suggests.
Social distancing no longer required so train length less important.
It is not always this bad.

Broadgage will say, I forecast that the new and often shorter trains would prove inadequate.
I more specifically forecast that the 18-03 (as it then was) would end being short formed. A particularly busy service and the LAST through train to Penzance.

Passengers in general, after experiencing the conditions reported are likely to say "never again" to GWR trains.

Time to admit that the IET project has failed and to obtain alternative rolling stock. Not of course for the whole fleet, may as well carry on using the IETs that still work. But time to admit defeat  and obtain some alternative stock to avoid this sort of thing.
Charter stock perhaps ? or are there any spare HSTs left ? I know that HST scrapping was accelerated, but have they ALL been scrapped ?
Even heritage stock for branch lines to free up Turbos for busy London services.




Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on August 26, 2021, 10:39:56 pm
It was the barnpot decision to build so many 5 car sets rather than more single full length sets that for me is the biggest failure of the IET project. Look at the trouble it’s caused on the GWML, also on the ECML but to a lesser extent.

Passengers who used to be conveyed on 8 carriage HSTs now regularly rammed into 5 carriage trains. It’s pathetic.

This has been going on since day 1 so you can’t blame cracks appearing on sets as to the reason why Hitachi cannot provide the correct number of trains.

Agree, you cannot trust Journeycheck…I’ve seen five vice 9/10 car sets that WEREN’T listed on Journeycheck!

Having any services to/from the Southwest, bar perhaps the off peak semi fasts, as five car sets is absolutely ridiculous and I see nothing being done to resolve this. In fact, the complete opposite now every set will need to be repaired.

The 18:04 Penzance as a five car set in the Summer crazy!

Short trains. Short of traincrew  ::)



Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 27, 2021, 03:14:14 am
"It will be ok when the whole fleet has been delivered" (so why start withdrawing HSTs BEFORE then ?)
" It will be ok when staff are are trained on the new trains" (the need for training seemed to come as a surprise)
" It will be ok when reliability modifications have been completed" So much for Japanese reliability !
" The coupling/uncoupling failures will lessen with greater familiarity"
" All trains to/from London that need to be full length, will be."
" No one needs full length trains with covid reducing travel"
" Many of the problems are due to staff self isolating"
" Once the trains are inspected for cracks, all will be well"
" We don't need the full fleet because we have reduced the timetable"

My famous crystal ball forecast this.

Time for action. Hitachi should pay for alternative rolling stock.
IET supporters will no doubt dismiss this as broadgage bingo, but in what ways do they consider this project to have been a success.

And if as has been suggested, hitachi wriggle out of paying up then they should be banned FOREVER from any UK government funded project. Not just rail projects.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 27, 2021, 03:33:13 am
It was the barnpot decision to build so many 5 car sets rather than more single full length sets that for me is the biggest failure of the IET project. Look at the trouble it’s caused on the GWML, also on the ECML but to a lesser extent.

Passengers who used to be conveyed on 8 carriage HSTs now regularly rammed into 5 carriage trains. It’s pathetic.

This has been going on since day 1 so you can’t blame cracks appearing on sets as to the reason why Hitachi cannot provide the correct number of trains.

Agree, you cannot trust Journeycheck…I’ve seen five vice 9/10 car sets that WEREN’T listed on Journeycheck!

Having any services to/from the Southwest, bar perhaps the off peak semi fasts, as five car sets is absolutely ridiculous and I see nothing being done to resolve this. In fact, the complete opposite now every set will need to be repaired.

The 18:04 Penzance as a five car set in the Summer crazy!

Short trains. Short of traincrew  ::)



Careful now, or you also will start to sound like me :)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on August 27, 2021, 07:12:35 am
Careful now, or you also will start to sound like me :)
Bit of a way to go yet there Broadgage as I actually quite like IETs, more especially the EC version. Nicer interior, slightly more comfortable seats, buffet but most of all; they almost entirely run on electric traction. That’s when they are at there best on the GWML also, which for all routes bar the South Wales mainline is nowhere near enough. Can’t blame the trains for that one.

My main gripe is there should have mainly been a like for like replacement in terms of train length with a small fleet of 5 coach trains for lesser used routes/services. And yes, a buffet certainly on the SW fleet.

At the end of the day the management of GWR know all this but what can they do about it with a train that was forced on them by the government for the next 30 or so years?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 27, 2021, 10:47:30 am
Even I would have considered IETs an acceptable modern train if they had buffets, padded seats, and were reliably full length.
I don't remember HSTs ever being half length ! (and yes I know that failed HSTs were handled by taking a working example from another route, that however is no consolation for long distance passengers who used to simply get an HST, but now have a lottery as to 5 car or full length)

I don't blame Hitachi for the absence of buffets or the excessive numbers of 5 car units, that is what the customer ordered.

I do however blame Hitachi for the unreliability whether due to cracks or otherwise. Likewise I blame Hitachi for the failure to cope with waves at Dawlish.

In my view, the government or the relevant agencies thereof should be stricter with Hitachi over this failed project. "You built them, you make them work" Should be the message.
In particular I feel that Hitachi should be required to lengthen some of the 5 car sets to full 9 car length ENTIRELY AT THEIR EXPENSE  as compensation for the long term lack of availability.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: grahame on August 27, 2021, 12:08:03 pm
I don't remember HSTs ever being half length ! ...

Ah, but in current times they're running as 4 car short-forms in Cornwall up to Bristol / Cardiff, and on main lines within Scotland.  With the disadvantage over IETs that they can't be coupled in pairs.

There do seem to be too many shorter-than-ideal IETs running around at the moment, and that's even with "The Bedwyns" being "Turbotuted".   What the various plans are/were in terms of what %age of services could be short users contracts, and how many services could be shorter than ideal, I don't know.   Add to that cracks and crew shortages and changing patterns of travel and the equations are difficult to work out or feed data into.  Classic smoke and mirrors stuff.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 27, 2021, 12:40:30 pm
My crystal ball said that the "new trains will be too short" and I pointed out three other major fleet renewals that resulted in new trains being too short.

Experts said "this time will be different"

And now, many IET services are too short. I will let others argue about the exact proportion of short forms resulting from different causes, but the average passenger simply knows new trains=shorter trains.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eightonedee on August 27, 2021, 01:54:03 pm
There's another factor for which Hitatchi cannot be blamed.

If the first phase of the GWM electrification had gone to plan, with wires to Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads, GW could have used all those colourful Electrostars that the other TOCs have lent them to cover a larger proportion of IET services while (hopefully) they are being fixed.

Indeed, if we had had a sustained proper electrification campaign in the last 40 years any stock anywhere in the UK apart from 3rd rail only could have filled the gap.....


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: didcotdean on August 27, 2021, 02:05:20 pm
On the original plan the Oxford terminating fasts would have been Electrostars (not necessarily 387s at the beginning) with only the services continuing up the North Cotts being bimode IETs. These have ended up with the twists and turns of time on the Heathrow Express.

GWR managed to neutralise an amount of the early wrong-thinking of the fleet balance with the 802 order but they couldn't do it all.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on August 27, 2021, 08:36:28 pm
There's another factor for which Hitatchi cannot be blamed.

If the first phase of the GWM electrification had gone to plan, with wires to Oxford and Bristol Temple Meads, GW could have used all those colourful Electrostars that the other TOCs have lent them to cover a larger proportion of IET services while (hopefully) they are being fixed.

Indeed, if we had had a sustained proper electrification campaign in the last 40 years any stock anywhere in the UK apart from 3rd rail only could have filled the gap.....

True, but I fail to see the relevance.
The IETs were ordered to fulfill certain specified needs, and have miserably failed to meet the contracted availability. The fact that electrification, if delivered in a timely fashion, could have reduced the need for IETs, is not really relevant.

I say again that our government need to say to Hitachi "You made them, you fix them" Or in more detail, make available for daily use the contracted number of trains. One means of achieving this would be supply extra or longer units so as to make up for the less than expected availability of the original build.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on September 09, 2021, 06:39:03 pm
The ORR's interim report on the cracking problems  (https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-compliance/rail/health-safety/passenger-safety/learning-lessons-orr-review-hitachi-at200-at300-rolling-stock-cracking)has been published. Most of its content is about how the various bits of "the railway" coped with this, with safety the primary concern throughout. As such, the detailed technical descriptions of the cracking are background material. They are also incomplete, in the sense that the big question - how did Hitachi screw up so badly - is still being addressed. ORR will be concerned with that subject mainly in reviewing the processes involved in getting new trains accepted for use.

A lot of consultants have been involved in this, some of whom were also involved on the various train programmes. I was surprised to read this:
Quote
51. Hitachi and the TOC engineers made use of independent technical advice, including The Welding Institute, Ricardo and Professor Rod Smith of Imperial College, London for Hitachi, SNC-L for LNER and First Group’s central engineering organisation that supports its individual TOCs. A factor in Hitachi’s selection of Ricardo was the absence of previous technical involvement with the introduction of AT300 rolling stock to service.

Ricardo worked for Hitachi to produce the safety case for IEP. While this is essentially a (virtual) paperwork exercise, I think it still does count as "technical".

SNC-Lavalin, as LNER's main advisors for the safety of reintroducing the trains after the May withdrawal, seem to have been a bit more cautious than everyone else. As it happens Interfleet, now part of SNC-L, was the Notified Body that certified all the AT200 and AT300 fleets as meeting the relevant standard (EN126631:2010 Railway Applications – Structural Requirements of Railway Vehicle Bodies). Small, world, these days.

Of course these different functions are parts of much larger organisatons, so should be capaple of acting independently. And the evidence above does suggest that this has been the case.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on September 11, 2021, 10:54:43 am
Indeed.  I can’t remember the last time I heard of a coupling failure.

Do you consider the project to have been a success then ?

Some elements have been a success, others not so.

Post #1653 in this thread http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5508.1650 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5508.1650) Suggests that coupling/uncoupling at Plymouth was causing time keeping issues and is therefore being avoided.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: PhilWakely on September 17, 2021, 11:10:15 am
And the next one please? (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/16/pollution-on-some-new-uk-trains-13-times-one-of-londons-busiest-roads)

Seats -> Catering -> Bicycles -> Surf Boards -> Cracks ............. now diesel pollution!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Bob_Blakey on September 17, 2021, 02:21:28 pm
SWTSMBO was booked to travel on the 1558 WKF>KGX next Monday (20/09) but an email from LNER on Wednesday advised that the service had been cancelled because a number of Azuma units were being temporarily taken out of service for unspecified safety checks. Have they found the same issue as affected the GWR IET's or is this something different?

On the plus side the email carried a link via which any booking could be changed.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on September 17, 2021, 03:50:40 pm
And the next one please? (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/16/pollution-on-some-new-uk-trains-13-times-one-of-londons-busiest-roads)

Seats -> Catering -> Bicycles -> Surf Boards -> Cracks ............. now diesel pollution!

Not certain that I would hold diesel pollution against them since the proper trains that we had before the IETs also burnt diesel fuel and produced pollution.
The other problems though ARE due to a poorly specified and badly built train.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 17, 2021, 03:51:06 pm
And the next one please? (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/16/pollution-on-some-new-uk-trains-13-times-one-of-londons-busiest-roads)

Seats -> Catering -> Bicycles -> Surf Boards -> Cracks ............. now diesel pollution!

Blimey. That's not good...................I guess GWR can say that by cancelling so many services due to staff shortages they are reducing pollution though?  ::)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on September 17, 2021, 05:50:43 pm
Indeed, the least polluting train is the one that stays in the depot. Or perhaps even better one that is not built.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on September 17, 2021, 05:53:50 pm
Indeed, the least polluting train is the one that stays in the depot. Or perhaps even better one that is not built.

Or, if you look at that Guardian article, a GWR IET! Yesterday's DfT news release  (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-commissions-action-to-improve-rail-air-quality)described the RSSB report as "published" and provided a link to their site. I can't see it there, so all we have for now is press reports with limited content and headlines that don't even match that.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Timmer on September 17, 2021, 05:57:32 pm
An IET shouldn’t have been producing ANY pollution between London and Bristol Temple Meads had Chris Grayling not cancelled the final stretches of electrification between Chippenham/Parkway-Temple Meads. What a crazy decision that was.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: eightonedee on September 17, 2021, 07:39:25 pm
There's a problem with the information as presented in the Guardian - no clue as to the measurement methodology was, the number of samples taken or similar.

Having said that, there does not seem to be any clear pattern. Second worse for NO2 and worse for particulates is the (surely) all electric Euston - Birmingham New Street. The reference to Voyagers toward the end is odd - as far as I am aware Avanti just have a few for the North Wales services. Yet the (as far as I am aware) almost identical Meridians on the Midland Main line seem to outperform the Avanti electrics. And Chiltern, an all diesel serive outperforms most of its rivals!  The GWR particulate figures look good (all that ad-blue and the Dpfs doing their job well)?

Did they happen to take a measurement when the GWR IET opened its doors at Reading between idling Turbos and Voyagers?

Anyone know the answers?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: stuving on September 17, 2021, 08:07:21 pm
Anyone know the answers?

No, but I've found where they were hiding. RSSB research report T1188 "CLEAR: Analysis of Air Quality On Board Trains" is published in the sense that, provided you sign in to their site, it can be downloaded. I think anyone can still register to get access.

As to what it says, well that's a bit complicated. The report has 122 pages and it will take a while to dig out the relevant bits. For one thing, it uses positive matrix factorisation, boxplots, and Kruskal-Wallis test to present the data.

Feel free to get stuck in!


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 17, 2021, 10:11:55 pm
Feel free to get stuck in!

After you, Stuving!  ;)


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: plymothian on October 11, 2021, 05:54:36 pm
There is another problem begining to occur with wrong side door releases.  When the driver initiates a correct side door release, there have been a couple of instances when a door on the wrong side has been released in addition.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: Lee on October 11, 2021, 07:06:22 pm
There is another problem begining to occur with wrong side door releases.  When the driver initiates a correct side door release, there have been a couple of instances when a door on the wrong side has been released in addition.

Perhaps they should head for the West of England line after all - That would be perfect for Templecombe...


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on October 11, 2021, 10:03:30 pm
And the next one please? (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/16/pollution-on-some-new-uk-trains-13-times-one-of-londons-busiest-roads)

Seats -> Catering -> Bicycles -> Surf Boards -> Cracks ............. now diesel pollution!

Followed by unwanted door releases.


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 12, 2021, 07:00:33 am
There is another problem begining to occur with wrong side door releases.  When the driver initiates a correct side door release, there have been a couple of instances when a door on the wrong side has been released in addition.

That’s a potentially very serious issue, though I’ve not heard any reports of it happening.  Are you able to provide any more information?


Title: Re: Problems with IET trains from April 2021
Post by: broadgage on October 12, 2021, 12:54:34 pm
There is another problem begining to occur with wrong side door releases.  When the driver initiates a correct side door release, there have been a couple of instances when a door on the wrong side has been released in addition.

That’s a potentially very serious issue, though I’ve not heard any reports of it happening.  Are you able to provide any more information?

I agree, this is a most serious failure IF the reports are accurate, which PERHAPS they are not.
I would expect reports in the national press, but not aware of any such.
And howls of outrage from the RMT, not aware of that either.

The opening or releasing of doors ONLY on the wrong side, might imply operator error, but the releasing of doors on BOTH sides suggests a serious defect as this AFAIK cant be done by mistake.



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