Great Western Coffee Shop

I am splitting this off into a separate thread.  Growing evidence that suggests to me that systems are limiting the numbers who can travel, even when there is plenty of capacity available.  This includes an insistance on reservations but such not being available from many TVMs (nor enforced) and what appears to be a declaration that services are fully booked - you need a reservation and none are available - and it turns out the trains are very thinly loaded.

I am all for avoiding overcrowding. I see little merit in continuing to make it a challenge to travel on quieter trains.




So ... my story yesterday. 

The weather has been awful. Yesterday (Saturday) was forecast to be merely bad not awful - the best of a bad bunch, so on Friday I decided to plan a trip to Weymouth to update pictures.  Saturday was also to be the first running for a number of years of a scheduled through service from Melksham to Weymouth at a time suitable for a day trip, and the first running of a later train back from Westbury that made getting back practical too.

I went online on Friday to book. Story quoted above. Booking system that took me through lots of options, and then failed to deliver. But my knoweldge suggested I might still be able to buy a walk-up ticket from the TVM, and further suggested that the trains might not be as busy as was made out. And on the basis that I would replan or abort my trip if it got uncomforatbly crowded, I payed a princely £12.90 at the Melksham Station TVM just after 08:30 yesterday.

Management Summary

I did a number of breaks of journey along the way. No carriage I was in was remotely crowded - space enough to socially distance every single time. Chatting with one of the train managers (who had time to talk because the loading was so light!), the TM had been told by other that [those others] had trouble booking / been warned off too.

Detail

* Melksham to Maiden Newton
Two car 158, with perhaps 15 passengers in my carriage, most of who stayed on through Westbury where a further 2 cars from Bristol were joined on. On board autometed announcements ex Melksham suggested that the train was terminating at Westbury, but the TM took steps to ensure we kept informed as staff too sorted out what was happening.  A few joiners along the way; judging by passengers waiting at Frome and at Pen Mill, other carriages probably got busier but I was at the front; don't know what the ex-Bristol carriages were like

* Maiden Newton to Weymouth
Four car (2 x Turbo) about 30 minutes behind - this is the train that had not stopped at the halts - the remenants of the "Weymouth Wizard". Perhaps 20 into Weymouth in my carriage - say 80 on the train as a whole which DID give a tight spot crowd for a minute or so on the narrow (inferior, uncanopied!) GWR platform at Weymouth

* Ferry Bridge Inn to Portland Heights
Bus - single decker, late lunch time.  It's a service every 15 minutes. Row of seats to myself, but not many rows free. Just about right at the moment?

* Fortuneswell to Weymouth
Bus - doule decker, mid afternoon. Top deck to myself; perhaps half a dozen downstairs?

* Weymouth to Yeovil Pen Mill
16:10, 3 car turbo. In the front carriage with perhaps 15 people.

* Yeovil Pen Mill to Castle Cary
18:19 train (the 17:28 off Weymouth) which I expected to be packed - hence my plan to just ride 1 stop on it.  3 car turbo - and how wrong could I have been on loading?  I don't think it was even into double figures in the carriage I was i - a "carrying fresh air" service.

* Castle Cary to Westbury
18:47 off CLC - 9 car IET.  Just one other passenger in my carriage.  Saw three staff - Train Manager and two operating the trolley. I may have been the only one off at Westbury, and didn't spot any joiners.  Shouldn't say it, but at this part of the diagram 5 cars would have been more than adequate.

* Westbury to Trowbridge
Rail Replacement buses running from Salisbury, so this was a Westbury starter. 2 car turbo, just myself + 1 other in the carriage off Westbury. Noticable quite a number jointed at Trowbridge

* Trowbridge to Melksham
First running of the 20:05 (Saturdays) Westbury to Swindon, joined at 20:11 at Trowbridge.  We have been calling for this later train for a very long time, but did no publicity for this first Saturday.  2 car 158 (THANK YOU - love the seats compared to the other trains I was on during the day.  Couldn't believe it - as perhaps the busiest carriage of the day. A dozen people got off at Melksham. "Total journey" observation - all 12 completed their journey from Melksham station on foot.  No cars collected from the car park, no ride-and-kiss pickups, no prebooked taxis, no cycles - off the train, collected from the racks, or collected from the hire point at the hub.  No-one took the bus ... but then, there isn't one.

In summary and thoughts

1. A great day out ... few problems, no overcrowding but information and ticketing system over-engineered to put people off!

2. The staff on the ground continue to do a great job

3. Will the levelling up of GBR mean a decent platform for trains via Westbury as well as via Poole at Weymouth?

4. You have only to sit in a 158 for a few minutes to realise how much more comfortable it is

5. Early days but it looks like the Saturday evening train from Westbury to Swindon will be a great success; viewing the customer base, these did not look like seasonal passengers and it should run all year.  As the train used then runs the the 21:20 (ish) all year Swindon to Westbury, it makes operational sense for it to carry on beyond September!

Similar experience in trying to buy advanced tickets that should be out there. None to be seen from Avanti West Coast or their site does not work the same as the old Virgin West Coast. Finally found a couple of first class advanced from London to Liverpool and back for Tuesday/Friday on the Trainline - a site I normally avoid - but there they had advances in the rack. It is if the mainline companies are deliberately suppressing travel (or cynically raising revenue per passenger carried) by withholding/hiding advanced tickets. Maybe they have a contractural arrangement which means the Trainline still gets its allocation.

Glad to hear your day out was a success grahame  :)

I find myself agreeing with you on the ticketing system issues - I recently had to book some tickets for a family member, and found the same situation of walk-up fares seemingly being quota-controlled. The selection of reservations was similarly awkward, giving options which, when selected, turned out not to be available; “Please try again”. I found in the end that selecting “no preference” worked for me. I can see how these obstacles could put people off using the train.

158 seating definitely preferable to Turbos, but I must warn you not to get your hopes up for a comfortable 158 seat on the 2107 from Swindon to Melksham on a Saturday night - the train for the new late Transwilts service from Westbury later carries on to Cheltenham, whilst a Turbo that has sat in the bay at Swindon forms the last train of the day from Swindon back to Westbury.

Following on from that - I wonder if this train is full and standing based on its normal capacity, its revised capacity or the number of reservations made.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/1C10.png)

I am a little surprised to see that nobody has made reference to the online PDF (and printed) timetables that mention (almost) compulsory reservation, using the traditional R in a square for all GW services on the Heart of Wessex Line (and other lines, of course, but not relevant to Grahame's journey). The timetable key now reads:


So if you start with the "socially distanced" capacity, and then deduct a number of seats for "turn up" passengers, how many would that leave for online purchase?

That [R] is not something that comes to the immediate attention when using the online booking system - that you can buy on the day and they'll find you space.   I suspect that obfuscation is deliberate.

They seem to have gone over the top.   Here is the 17:28 off Weymouth (on departure from Yeovil yesterday). I don't believe that "all the seats were already reserved".

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/exwey20210522.jpg)

and here is the compulsory reservation train that called at Castle Cary at 18:47 on its way to London.  Just three of the seats out of - what - 80 had red reservations; the rest said "available"

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/exclc20210522.jpg)

And it seems illogical - if they're trying to put off travellers, aren't they now putting off those key worker and essential journey makers that they have been so proud to have been available for for the last 15 months?   Logic would be to have the online systems tell you that if you must travel you can book on the day ...

And I thought it was just me having problems or more likely a bug on the GWR system.

I've traveled up to Caramarthen twice now since Wales eased restrictions. No problems travelling from Reading but no success trying to book a return journey. The first time I looked at all the trains from around 6.30am to late morning, first and second class over a couple of days. Not a single reservation available and warning against traveling. In the end I caught a Transport For Wales train to Swansea that I knew didn't have reservations anyway. The GWR site still generated a warning though.

I just assumed it was to do with Carmarthen being end of the line or the direct train being first one out. At the same time though its not exactly busy in normal circumstances. Second time I got a lift back as just got fed up with no reservations being available.

I assumed it was a website bug as it just seems such a strange policy to have on a route that isn't busy especially as there were no reservations downloaded on my first journey. Second journey Reading - Carmarthen I had a reservation but in the wrong part of the train which meant running up the platform to the other half of the train when it split at Swansea.

Having done the journey twice I'll probably ignore the warning next time rather than take a slower trip with changes but its not going to encourage  casual travelers back on to the trains.

Unlike the GWR site, which fails at the seat reservation stage, the National Rail journey planner reports "No fares available for this journey". Inaccurate!  >:(

As I write this just after midnight on the 25th, the first direct train Trowbridge-Weymouth showing a fare is the 21:25.

Five of us having issues ... I have dropped an email to one of our GWR contacts to see if there's some wider policy at play.  I wonder how many more people are thinking "And I thought it was just me " ....

A further development this morning. National rail enquiries has gone back to showing the yellow triangle for all cross country services indicating please book your space before you travel. This has been missing for the last week or so.

Trains that are getting short of seats also show ristrictions on ticket availability. The 12:52 Departure from Cheltenham to Plymouth is currently showing only first class ticket availability while the earlier and later trains show standard class as well. First class is cheaper anytime than off peak ???

Having posted earlier comments about similar observations on services to the West from Paddington before seeing this thread,  I'm thinking DfT are pulling the strings as they/government don't wish to see scenes like those at St Pancras when the London lockdown was announced being splashed over the media. So the over cautious approach is taken - after all the government is paying the bills so why should GWR worry too much ?  ::)

As a commercial company, perhaps GWR should not worry too much. "Not our responsibility, Guv - we just run the trains we are told to". But - longer term - the head says they should really want passengers to they keep being paid to run those trains next year, etc.  And the heart say that dedicate rail staff hate to see useful resources unused, and passenger who are their advocated being turned off.

I've just had an email from TrainSplit ...


And ... Network Rail have chosen the Bank Holiday Sunday to replace trains by buses from Yeovil Pen Mill to Weymouth; just the one Sunday - classic weekend to choose to do it! ....

I read somewhere that this had been postponed but cannot remember the source.

Source as below
https://www.bridportnews.co.uk/news/19325941.works-weymouth-yeovil-rail-line-postponed/

edit 16.45

Well ... it was being advertised on the platform at Yeovil Pen Mill on Saturday afternoon ... confirmed on the engineering update sheet at Melksham Station when I got back there than evening.

BUT ... Real Time Trains show trains through Yeovil Pen Mill that day.   

Trying to book ...



Edit to add

Trying to book on the 10:05 from Melksham gives


Gone from not running to full remarkably quickly!

... next service 14:05 .... 15:51 in Weymouth and I could get the 16:10 back ...

It is worth commenting that BRI-WSB-WEY journeys have never (in living memory?) actually offered seats for reservation. Does this mean they have now been introduced - or just that one cannot in fact reserve such?

Reservations are compulsory on GWR services to/from Weymouth (this information is shown on realtimetrains.co.uk, which derives it’s information from official data feeds, so I assume that is what is uploaded in the Journey Planner systems).

Unfortunately, GWR’s services to/from Weymouth do not offer seat reservations.

The only possible explanation I can come up with is that no-one is to use these services.... ??? ::)

You’ll need a reservation for that 1405 mind grahame ;)

And if you manage that, you could have two hours in Weymouth and come back on the 1753 (so long as you make a reservation!), with the ‘bonus’ of a 48 minute stop-over at Westbury (or Trowbridge if you prefer). You could even spend time at both if you so desired.

But best of all, no reservation required (or available) on the 2021 from Westbury to Melksham  ;D

It definitely feels as if an attempt is being made to discourage travel to and from Weymouth.

Despite what the official line is, I am sure that the masses from Yeovil on a sunny day will just turn up and buy their ticket, boarding the next train. Compulsory reservations on a service like that to Weymouth is  totally impractical to enforce

I have just contacted Cross Country to let them know that the 10 minute reservation tool on their website does not include Winchester. At the time it was introduced they did not call at Winchester. Although I suspect that using WIN in the text message you have to send would work anyway.

However all this must be totally off-putting for the infrequent user.

Winchester is:

Winchester [WIN]
Service stop unadvertised

From realtime Trains.

What this means in practice only some people know, the railways are making it a right chore to travel even for the 'experts' amongst us. Let alone if you have a bike, given up taking my bike on the train, go by car now.

From a conversation I have been having on Twitter it would seem that the reservations are to limit online sales and not prevent you from turn up and go.

Edit to add
Apparently aimed at the Cl 80x services it has been added to all as a rather blunt tool.

I have just booked on gwr.com a single ticket from WEY (16.10)-FRO for next Sunday for my wife. This was to obtain one of the newly introduced advance fares which were available at £13.80 or £18.00 on some services. I supposedly got the last one available.
Naturally a reservation was required and the system did allow this to be booked, but then allocated "any seat on the train."

These advance fares are useful for single journeys but hardly a bargain for day or period (off-peak) returns.

They also seem to be using the same blunt tool for prices. Looking to travel to Carmarthen from Twyford around the 17th June the direct(ish) train is £154 for a single which is more than I've ever paid including when I go first class. Last journey 4 of us got off at Carmarthen which is 3 more than is normally on the train. There are cheaper fares travelling earlier and changing but more likely I won't travel.

I have asked for feedback from a GWR contact on this, but no response received. However, I have noted a change in the journey planner and no longer have get all the way through the system before being rejected - it's now flagged up as the train times are being listed:


Better, but still a significant issue - on the service I was looking at, the train reported as "sold out" only runs every 2 hours, leaving a 4 hour gap in what I could book for a 45 minute journey.

After all the challenges around reservations there were of course no reservations at all downloaded for my journey.

Again I'm not sure its going to encourage people to travel with confidence.

Its normally a 5+5 that splits but was only 5 this time. Do reservations still not work if the other carriages are missing? I assumed that had must have been fixed some time ago.

I have received a substantive reply from GWR (thank you, GWR) - summarising here as best I can to explain the situation.

GWR and the other TOCs are required not to oversell places on their trains at present; what (two years ago) a very uncomfortable journey if you had to squeeze your way on has become a potential spreader of a very serious virus.  At the same time, trains are there for key journeys and really need to be available for flexible, daily, last minute planned (unplanned in advance) travel.

They have chosen to meet their objectives as best "they can" by restricting online bookings on most of their trains to a level at which they leave enough space for turn-up-and-go passengers. There are, though, problems with this approach:

1. The online booking software wasn't written for this scenario and to some extent has been kludged to fit the need.  There has not been (would there have been time?) a rewrite and test to make the tool really fit for the job

2. If the online booking engine were to say "online bookings sold out but there will be places on the day", it would significantly reduce the intended discouragement - it relies on being economic with the truth to be effective. The side effect of having potential new leisure customers - the very people the railways will need - turned off has been noted, but is no more that a regretted side-note.

3. Online booking levels need, I suspect, to be very low indeed on popular services to allow space for last minute travellers (typically work and key journeys not leisure ones) and would potentially need to lowered further - perhaps to zero or beyond - if the last minute traveller is to remain accommodated.

4. The hardest traffic to predict is the turn-up-and-go which when added to a cautious approach means that there is likely to be the absurdity of lots of available (socially spaced too) capacity remaining unused even on normally-popular trains ...

I dislike the solution applied. However, that is a destructive and not a constructive criticism, and I can understand the difficult position GWR find themselves in - as do other TOCs - and I'm conscious that I'm not offering any better suggestion. 

It has taken a number of weeks for GWR to answer this query - an indication of its difficulty and the depth they have looked at answering, and I have noted in the meantime some changes in detail. Wasting people's time online by having them select a train, then whether they want forward or backward, window or aisle, only to then tell you "train full - try another" wasn't clever and brought the system (IMHO) into more disrepute than was needed; the whole shenanigans brings disrepute anyway, but the absurdity of how it was done was gold plated disrepute.

I hope that we have less than a month of this to endure ... and on that basis, it should be a shorter term issue rather than a longer one.  I really hope so; best put time and effort into explaining as necessary, and to promoting use of trains with spaces and spreading leisure traffic away from leisure-peaks. Let's move on - anyone fancy a day out in Neath, Furze Platt, Aldermaston or Sea Mills?

The obvious question is why is there still social distancing on trains when no other mode of transport has it?

Buses - seems to be only seats that face one another that have any restrictions.
Tube - cant see any restrictions.
Taxi - no restrictions.
Planes - no restrictions and as far as I can tell have never had any restrictions.

Is this a case of we can do something so we will rather than there being a real need to have it?

I know that having to have reservations almost put the rest of my family off travelling by train; until I pointed out that they could just buy a ticket at the station and catch the first train that comes. How many others have been put off by the policy? When the railway needs all the money it can get this policy seems perverse and must be being driven by the government although I guess the fact that the tocs have no finanical risk may also be an issue.

In response to grahame points….

1. Who pays for the rewrite of ‘nationally-used’ software? Not the TOCs as their ERMAs don’t require it, so the DfT. Would they? I doubt it for the likely length of time since lockdown travel was lifted to likely full release. Also, it would take months of development & testing before it could be used. Enough time? Unlikely in my view.

2. Indeed, if that were allowed, the first seriously overcrowded train would feature heavily in the media & likely put off more leisure travellers than a few ‘fully-booked’ trains would, IMHO. Difficult to solve. People will return to trains I reckon quite quickly. Numbers are already on the rise.

I’ve made two long distance journeys recdntly (another this weekend) and numbers are rising quicker south of Birmingham than north thereof.

I agree with you, ChrisB - though I did not go on to ask "Ooze gonna pay" as it's impractical in the time, so the financial question is hypothetical


Agreed again, yes.  I have highlighted elements of your comments which are confirming what I wrote  ;D

Might be a pint in it if anyone is venturing over here.

I travelled on a seriously overcrowded train on my north east ramblings - full and standing, The media seems to have missed it

Indeed. Though be careful what you suggest in jest.  I HAVE spent time in Neath ...

A marketing email telling me...

"Save up to 50%* when you book up to 24 weeks before you travel for weekday journeys and 12 weeks for weekends with Advance fares at GWR.com."

Not sure if I've just been lucky but my normally my expectation of getting an advance fare is 3-4 weeks. Hopefully this does the mean the return of more sensible ticket prices although I'm travelling by car again this month as my regular journey is still £154 probably with just me on the train for the last hour of the journey.

It would appear that the restriction on internet and phone app sales has been removed this week. I have checked several times at times when I would of expected a shortage of the allocated seats and found tickets available.

Thanks for that update ... not sure when during the week it was done?   I had issues early in the week (Tuesday?) when booking my trip to Evesham.  All the way through to the reservation page and I expressed a preference for where to sit - and it then came back telling me no seats available and suggested I try another train.  This on my selection of an ADVANCE fare too, which is train specific and a very odd thing to offer if there are no seats to be booked ...

Having just travelled back from Carmarthen to Twyford the reservation warnings still seem to be in place although prices were much more sensible. Having said that though the train was packed and the coach I was in had nearly every single seat reserved so may not be covid related. It looked similar on the coaches either side. This was a 9 coach IET. Not sure what happened to social distancing as it was impossible with every seat reserved. Seems to be where we are now - all the official rules gone or going but organisations still asking for face coverings, hand washing and to respect people's space.

It left me not entirely comfortable with my plan of going back the other way next week. Partly covid but also if the trains are going to be this packed easier to drive (or rather get driven as still not quite got around to learning....)