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Journey by Journey => Wales local journeys => Topic started by: grahame on June 07, 2021, 14:48:28



Title: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 07, 2021, 14:48:28
Press release from TfW (https://news.tfw.wales/news/transport-for-wales-introduce-premium-trains)

Quote
The first intercity train left Holyhead at 5.34am on 7 June, and arrived in Cardiff at 9.58am, providing an essential link between north and south Wales.

Lesley Griffiths, the Minister for North Wales, travelled on the first service south and said: “The introduction of these high-quality trains is another positive step towards encouraging more people back on the train on this popular route by providing them with a more enjoyable experience.”

Transport of Wales also announced that they have successfully purchased a further 30 Mark 4 intercity carriages that are fully refurbished to a high standard. This will include four trains of five carriages which will enter service on the Swansea to Manchester route from December 2022.   

The new trains will include First Class carriages, free Wi-Fi throughout, an enhanced food and drink offer including a buffet car, accessible toilets and baby changing facilities. There will also be wheelchair and priority seating available. The carriages were purchased thanks to funding from the Welsh Government.

Starting to be carried in places such as Rail Advent (https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2021/06/new-mk4-trains-introduced-by-transport-for-wales-as-ex-grand-central-coaches-purchased.html)

Quote
Transport for Wales has introduced its fleet of Mark 4 coaches on services between Cardiff and Holyhead this morning, with the ex-LNER coaches providing better capacity for passengers.

The first train left Holyhead at 5:34 and will arrive in Cardiff at 09:57, providing an essential link between North and South Wales.

Transport for Wales has also confirmed to RailAdvent that they have purchased 30 Mark 4 coaches that were destined to be used with Grand Central on Blackpool to London Euston services before this project was scrapped. These will be refurbished and will be used on the Swansea to Manchester route from December 2022.

I've not been recently (I wonder why!) but current trains headed north from Newport have typically been very busy, and a boost from 2 or 3 carriages to five carriages will be most welcome.  But with just four of these trains there won't be enough to take over the current hourly service in total.

And from North Wales Pioneer (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/19354203.hopes-improved-rail-service-cardiff-holyhead-will-provide-travellers-more-enjoyable-experience/)

Quote
James Price, Transport for Wales CEO said: “We’re continuing with our plans to transform transport across our network and improve the customer experience. Today, we’ve introduced additional Mark 4 carriages on our North-South Wales route that will improve the service.

“I’m also delighted to announce our plans to introduce premium intercity carriages to our network within the next two years. The Swansea-Manchester route is one of our most popular, providing key links between the cities of South Wales and North-West England. By introducing these high-quality trains, we’re recognising its importance as an intercity route and providing a more attractive alternative to travelling by car.

“The investment in high-quality trains demonstrates we’re going above and beyond our original commitment to transform the Wales and Borders rail service and deliver a world-class service for our customers throughout our network, including on the Heart of Wales and west Wales where we’re upgrading our original plans.”


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: rogerw on June 07, 2021, 15:05:55
Was this purely a press preview trip?  Checking on the system using RTT no through Cardiff to Holyhead services are found. The journey planners are also not identifying through services.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: phile on June 07, 2021, 15:18:25
Was this purely a press preview trip?  Checking on the system using RTT no through Cardiff to Holyhead services are found. The journey planners are also not identifying through services.

Public services and shown in Journey Planners but running as STP at the moment due to introduction after start of Timetable


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: rogerw on June 07, 2021, 17:23:45
It appears to be only one set working on the historic "Gerald" timings with no midday workings yet


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: phile on June 07, 2021, 18:37:39
It appears to be only one set working on the historic "Gerald" timings with no midday workings yet

Some more using 2 sets will be introduced later, possibly September, when more crews trained


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: broadgage on June 07, 2021, 21:22:10
Interesting to see that loco hauled coaches are being regarded as the "high quality" option !
Most of the railway industry seems to regard LHCS as obsolete with the future said to be Voyagers, IETs and similar.

Two generations ago, the mantra was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of steam"
One generation ago it was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of loco hauled services"
Until very recently the new mantra was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of so many differing train types and standardised on IETs"

Perhaps there is a move back to proper trains ?, at least for Inter city services.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: phile on June 07, 2021, 21:42:35
Interesting to see that loco hauled coaches are being regarded as the "high quality" option !
Most of the railway industry seems to regard LHCS as obsolete with the future said to be Voyagers, IETs and similar.

Two generations ago, the mantra was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of steam"
One generation ago it was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of loco hauled services"
Until very recently the new mantra was "It will all be OK when we have got rid of so many differing train types and standardised on IETs"

Perhaps there is a move back to proper trains ?, at least for Inter city services.

And now we've got rid of Pacers


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 07, 2021, 21:48:16
Perhaps there is a move back to proper trains ?, at least for Inter city services.

But are they really InterCITY?   To be such, the Holyhead service should be cut back to Bangor, with only three calls after Cardiff - at Newport, Hereford and Chester.

Cardiff
Newport
Hereford
Chester
Bangor


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: phile on June 08, 2021, 08:52:21
Perhaps there is a move back to proper trains ?, at least for Inter city services.

But are they really InterCITY?   To be such, the Holyhead service should be cut back to Bangor, with only three calls after Cardiff - at Newport, Hereford and Chester.

Cardiff
Newport
Hereford
Chester
Bangor

Not Shrewsbury ?     This a major Business Hub so far as Wales is concerned and connections for Mid-Wales and the Cambrian due to it's location.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2021, 09:31:32
Not Shrewsbury ?     This a major Business Hub so far as Wales is concerned and connections for Mid-Wales and the Cambrian due to it's location.

Shrewsbury, though, is a town not a city for an interCITY service. It has an Abbey (an used to have an Abbey Station), but no Cathedral nor royal warrant.

Arguable extra stops on the InterCity train would be
either Abergele and Pensarn, or Rhyl, for bus transfer to St Asaph
either Clarbeston Road or Haverfordwest for bus transfer to St Davids
Holyhead for boat transfer to Dublin
and, yes, Shrewsbury for connection to Wolverhampton.  ;D

The whole business of what constitutes a city ...



Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Timmer on June 08, 2021, 19:20:11
Great to see Mk4 coaching stock being put to good use rather than being crushed.

Will make  a viable alternative to travelling on a Voyager via Birmingham. Fare is probably cheaper too. Thinking of from places like Westbury, Bath, Bristol to Manchester changing at Newport.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2021, 21:24:48
Will make  a viable alternative to travelling on a Voyager via Birmingham. Fare is probably cheaper too. Thinking of from places like Westbury, Bath, Bristol to Manchester changing at Newport.

It's already been a good route - though I have run into issues in the past with connections at Newport.  Looking at RTT, can't see where the issues are now but then my experiences were prior to the December 2019 timetable change.  Fond memories of rumbling late over the Usk bridge and passing the "via Hereford" I should have been on ....

Seem to recall Church Stretton as a good split ticket station ...


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: broadgage on June 10, 2021, 14:50:48
Great to see Mk4 coaching stock being put to good use rather than being crushed.

Will make  a viable alternative to travelling on a Voyager via Birmingham. Fare is probably cheaper too. Thinking of from places like Westbury, Bath, Bristol to Manchester changing at Newport.

Why would people want to avoid travelling on a Voyager ? I thought that they were modernish purpose designed rolling stock, and surely far preferable to older trains.
Indeed Voyagers were considered such a great idea that broadly similar, short trains were ordered for many other routes.
Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Celestial on June 10, 2021, 18:30:32

Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !

You'll actually be able to construct quite long journeys avoiding IETs and Voyagers.

Penzance to Newport by direct Castle Class HST.
Newport to Manchester Picc by Mk IV.
Manchester to Leeds by Mk V.
Leeds to London by Mk IV (for the next couple of years at least).

So Penzance to London all the way on proper rolling stock. Simples!



Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 10, 2021, 19:47:33
Not Shrewsbury ?     This a major Business Hub so far as Wales is concerned and connections for Mid-Wales and the Cambrian due to it's location.

Shrewsbury, though, is a town not a city for an interCITY service. It has an Abbey (an used to have an Abbey Station), but no Cathedral nor royal warrant.


Seeing all these trains that had "InterCity 125" on the side at Reading station must have been a figment of my imagination. Obviously they wouldn't stoop so low to stop at a town such as Reading?  ;D


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 10, 2021, 19:50:24
Great to see Mk4 coaching stock being put to good use rather than being crushed.

Will make  a viable alternative to travelling on a Voyager via Birmingham. Fare is probably cheaper too. Thinking of from places like Westbury, Bath, Bristol to Manchester changing at Newport.

Why would people want to avoid travelling on a Voyager ? I thought that they were modernish purpose designed rolling stock, and surely far preferable to older trains.
Indeed Voyagers were considered such a great idea that broadly similar, short trains were ordered for many other routes.
Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !
At the time they were built (before many seemed to have realised what a bad idea burning diesel was) there wasn't actually all that much wrong with the Voyagers - the interior layout was rubbish and they should have had more carriages but other than that they had potential. The 20 or so 5-car sets that were allocated to the West Coast franchise when XC was split off and went to Arriva actually ended up with one carriage with a half-decent interior. When travelling on the WCML in recent years I have aimed for that carriage - much better than the Pendolinos (which have windows so narrow they're hardly worth having) and I think we'd have been better off with 9-car straight-electric (EMU) Voyagers instead of Pendolinos. Shame the Arriva XC Voyagers don't have that carriage.


Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !

You'll actually be able to construct quite long journeys avoiding IETs and Voyagers.

Penzance to Newport by direct Castle Class HST.
Newport to Manchester Picc by Mk IV.
Manchester to Leeds by Mk V.
Leeds to London by Mk IV (for the next couple of years at least).

So Penzance to London all the way on proper rolling stock. Simples!


Not so simple. I understand the mark 5s aren't much different from an IET inside - they have the same 'interrogation centre style' hard seats. I think I read somewhere that the window alignment on the mark 5s is rubbish too (an IET might actually beat a mark 5 in that respect). Newport to Manchester won't all be mark 4. I hope that TfW and/or the Welsh Government will be persuaded to keep the current class 175 units (strengthened to 4/5 coach trains by running them in pairs) on the remaining services but fear that they will stick to KeliosAmey's plan to use new class 197 units which I understand also have the 'interrogation centre style' IET seat and don't have particularly great window alignment either.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: broadgage on June 11, 2021, 01:57:48

At the time they were built (before many seemed to have realised what a bad idea burning diesel was) there wasn't actually all that much wrong with the Voyagers - the interior layout was rubbish and they should have had more carriages but other than that they had potential.

I agree, but train length and internal layout are arguably the most important factors for most passengers. So stating that a rain type is OK apart being too short and having a poor  internal layout, is almost the same as saying "pretty rubbish in general"

I would go so far as say that even IETs have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 11, 2021, 07:45:47
I agree, but train length and internal layout are arguably the most important factors for most passengers.

No - not train length IMHO - train loading.  People will be quite happy to sit in a 2 car 158 from Girvan to Stranraer, but not to travel on that same unit when running as the complete train from Temple Meads to Weston on a sunny summer Saturday morning.

And I would be very happy with a 10 car hourly IET from Paddington to Swindon that divides there, with just 5 cars forward to each of Cheltenham Spa and Weymouth each calling all stations.  Layout's acceptable - though more luggage space and tables for groups and workspace might be appreciated, and seat padding certainly would.

Wouldn't that be Wizard!


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Lee on June 11, 2021, 08:30:48
I would go so far as say that even IETs have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.

...and without quite so much cracking, or that general air of major generational project gone horribly wrong...


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 11, 2021, 08:34:39
According to a transport focus survey, being on time and the cost of the ticket are more important than getting a seat.  Comfort of the seat is ranked down in 14th.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/publication/rail-passengers-priorities-for-improvement-2/


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: PhilWakely on June 11, 2021, 08:48:16
According to a transport focus survey, being on time and the cost of the ticket are more important than getting a seat.  Comfort of the seat is ranked down in 14th.

https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/publication/rail-passengers-priorities-for-improvement-2/

Survey conducted amongst commuters, no doubt!  I wonder what the results would be when conducted on a PAD-PNZ on a Summer Friday or PNZ-PAD on a Summer Sunday!


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 11, 2021, 08:59:19
Quote from: PhilWakely
Survey conducted amongst commuters, no doubt!  I wonder what the results would be when conducted on a PAD-PNZ on a Summer Friday or PNZ-PAD on a Summer Sunday!

I think they usually try and get a reasonably diverse range of responses, of which there were 14300 for this survey.

According to the page I linked to you can download a simulator ‘that you can use to run priorities for different groups of passengers. For example, by region, journey length, age or gender.’


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: grahame on June 11, 2021, 10:21:37

Whatever next ! suggesting ways of avoiding IETs !

You'll actually be able to construct quite long journeys avoiding IETs and Voyagers.

Penzance to Newport by direct Castle Class HST.
Newport to Manchester Picc by Mk IV.
Manchester to Leeds by Mk V.
Leeds to London by Mk IV (for the next couple of years at least).

So Penzance to London all the way on proper rolling stock. Simples!



Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: broadgage on June 11, 2021, 12:47:56
I would go so far as say that even IETs have potential, if made full length and with a layout including padded seats, proper first class and a buffet.

...and without quite so much cracking, or that general air of major generational project gone horribly wrong...

Is cracking much of a problem ?
I thought that Hitachi and GWR were "coping well" with the challenges ?
And that a "near normal service" was being provided.
And that many of the short forms "are not IETs" and that some trains are actually full length.
And that IETs are so wonderful that other TOCs are rushing to order them.

Would still like proper trains to the West country though.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 11, 2021, 13:17:30
Is cracking much of a problem ?
I thought that Hitachi and GWR were "coping well" with the challenges ?
And that a "near normal service" was being provided.
And that many of the short forms "are not IETs" and that some trains are actually full length.

Cracking is a huge problem for GWR but they do seem to be coping reasonably well.  You're correct - a near normal service is indeed being provided (the few alterations to the printed timetables have been discussed already), and yes, many of the short forms are not IETs and never have been.

Today is not a good day, with 71 formation updates listed, but if we break them down:

33 are not IET operated services (the majority due to a 2-car operating on the Henley shuttle).
3 are now formed with the planned number of carriages.
12 are either 9 vice 10 or 10 vice 9 which makes practically no difference.
3 are long formed (9 vice 5).
20 are 5 vice 9 cars.

Twenty 5 vice 9s is not a great number, but they include such trains as 21:39 Weston to Bristol service, 19:50 Paddington to Hereford and 20:00 Bristol to Paddington - none of which are likely to be too busy, or quiet for the majority of the trip.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: bobm on June 11, 2021, 19:13:09
There was some proactive swapping of sets at Paddington in the light of the number of reservations made.   The 11:48 to Swansea was one - which was bumped up from 5 to 9 to cater for the expected demand.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: Celestial on June 11, 2021, 19:54:43


Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids
[/quote]

But they are still nasty dmu's with underfloor engines, and so (as we're frequently told on this forum) not worthy accommodation for an inter-city style journey.


Title: Re: Locomotive and coach services by Transport for Wales - Marches line
Post by: broadgage on June 11, 2021, 21:28:27


Or ... Penzance to London with a simple change at Exeter St Davids

But they are still nasty dmu's with underfloor engines, and so (as we're frequently told on this forum) not worthy accommodation for an inter-city style journey.
[/quote]

Agreed, the 159s are a bit nasty, but at least have padded seats and are therefore not as nasty as IETs. Neither is very suitable for long distance services.
SWT have no catering. GWR sometimes have a half hearted trolley but this is often hiding, or in the other unit, or completely absent.



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