Great Western Coffee Shop

Has anyone seen any further information on this:

https://news.railbusinessdaily.com/siemens-mobility-to-deliver-low-cost-digital-solution-for-devon-and-cornwall-re-signalling-programme/?fbclid=IwAR1Ngm8QLBWeakyQ-XAV6NvmwPocHsx5CGQ54wIUYi7qX8te3Ox7yjA6MXQ

It says completion in late 2023!!

I did not see any mention of it in the current Modern Railways article on GWR.

Someone's geography has got confused!

Would this mean that all Semaphore signals would be no more?

So far the Siemens Mobility press release seems unclear in how much of the current
signalling in Cornwall will instead be controlled from the Exeter Signalling Centre and which Cornish SBs will be closed and just what the reported elsewhere, area of 'West Devon' that will be controlled from the existing early 1960's Plymouth PSB, which ?was/is
expected to close.
The last Semaphore signals could well, in 2024, be at Bodmin General.

I'm very confused (it's my age).
Plymouth will/might control some parts of West Cornwall; the rest going over to Exeter.
Why not do the lot from Plymouth; over even do it all from Exeter and shut Plymouth.  ???

I remember back in 2014 I was lucky enough to look round the Thames Valley Signalling Centre at Didcot.  At that stage the plan was still to control everything from Paddington to Penzance from there.

In this photo the Paddington workstation is the last video display on the right.  Penzance would, I believe, have been at the end of the semi-circular wood surround in the foreground. 

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/didpad.jpg)

I hope it’s OK to quote from a post on RMweb earlier this week:

“ As one of the designers on the scheme, I can answer the questions:
 
1) Semaphore Signalling at Liskeard, St. Blazey, Goonbarrow and St. Erth is safe, and the mechanical frame at Penzance is also safe. I think the signal boxes that are being closed will remain standing, just in a different use.
 
2) The new workstation at Exeter will cover Cornwall, and eventually also control Plymouth when that’s done (although I don’t when that will be). There’s simply more space for a workstation at Exeter and it’s where the Cornish signallers are based at anyway (at least I think that was the case when we did the original scheme).
 
Simon”

I have asked him to clarify that the mechanical signals will be motor driven remotely.

Thank you Pb_devon.
Clears my mind somewhat.
Wonder why Penzance is 'safe' as it only controls that area.
If Plymouth can be remoted from Exeter, then Penzance would be no problem to remote.

Don't let Mebyon Kernow hear that!

And the answer Simon has provided is this:

“ Yes and no, the Mechanical Semaphores at Lostwithiel, Par and Truro are all being replaced with LED Colour Lights, they will be controlled by a VDU Workstation at Exeter rather than the panel. However, the Mechanical Semaphore Signals at Liskeard, St. Blazey, Goonbarrow and St. Erth will remain and worked by their respective boxes.”
 
So a partial resignalling then!

At first sight this looks a bit of a patchwork.  It would be more logical if Liskeard only covered the branch to Looe.  Where is the interface with Plymouth panel?

It saves the cost of building a museum. One day, the UK signalling system will be controlled by one person from a smartphone app.

Plymouth controls west up to the Liskeard distant.

I still find it hard to understand the logic of a mixture of old mechanical signalling with that of a modern network all controlled from one ROC. It seems a "pig's ear" of a scheme to me and probably fraught with difficulties.

Cost.  Short term cost.  :-\

You need a £100 million computer system, lots of LED lights, a GSM radio system with capability for transmission of telemetry data at high speed, a whistle, a flag and some large bangy things to stick on the rails when it's foggy, so the driver of the £50 million train knows that there's a broken down steam engine ahead.

And so that the driver of a steam engine knows that there is a broken down £50  million new train ahead !

This has developed into a thread with two halves hasn’t it? Until sometime in January it was about a future resignalling project due to complete in 2023.  Has work actually started on that?

Then from post 17 onwards it was suddenly all about day to day faults, theft or vandalism.

Are the two subjects actually related at all?  ???

Paul

Guilty as charged.
I didn't spot the REsignalling at the time of my first post.

So Mods, please split this into two if possible, perhaps with a title of Cornwall signalling problems? as the thefts have been in Cornwall.

Took a while to respond - but topics now split!

I note that the list of engineering works due later this year on GWR's website includes:
- 5th, 6th & 13th November: St. Austell to Penzance
- 19th & 20th November: Lostwithiel to St. Austell
- 05th - 08th December: Truro to Penzance, incl. St. Erth - St. Ives
- 27th - 30th January: Par to Newquay

I presume, without knowing for sure, that the works of November and December will be related to the resignalling in terms of installation of the replacement signals - :( - but I am not sure when the new setup is due to be commissioned. As for Par to Newquay this could also be for work on the same project to make a few alterations.

Dave

I saw a notice at Truro station a few days ago saying something about resignalling taking place between September 2022 and ? January 2023 to improve the service.

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/a-modular-approach-to-signalling-in-cornwall/
(Rather off topic, but interesting to read article https://www.lococarriage.org.uk/plykerno.html)

Hence the closure dates in the post above yours. I have been told on another forum that the commissioning of the new system will not take place until November 2023 though which should give me time for a final photo trip at some point. The boxes at Lostwithiel, Par and Truro will be abolished but St. Blazey will remain and Goonbarrow Junction will have its mechanical workings replaced with a new panel. I have also heard that Newquay station will go back to having two platforms as well.

Dave

Interesting - that would take a huge amount of work in addition to the signalling, wouldn't it?

They want an hourly service to Newquay as part of a cross Cornwall metro to Falmouth.

There's definitely a lot planned according to the Rail Engineer article (linked posted by GMB above or below whichever way you have your posts aligned!)
I hope the new passing loop planned on the Goss Moor on the Newquay branch is long enough for an IET!!

I don't know. This photo from the Wikipedia site - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newquay_railway_station#/media/File:GWR_150234_at_Newquay.jpg - shows the redundant platform on the right, minus track, and I am quite sure that is still there. The requirement would be for new signals as well as track. There are a few closures coming up on the line (19th, 20th & 27th November 2022 + 27th - 30th January 2023) so some work might be done then but who knows. They may even leave it until the middle of next year: I have heard on another forum that the commissioning work for this resignalling scheme will start 1st November 2023 and not finish until the end of the month so I hope to take my camera down there before then.

Dave

Evening all,

Thought I would bump this topic with a bit of an update. Anyone who uses the trains in Cornwall regularly will probably be aware that the semaphore system remains in place although work has been taking place of late with signs of new cables and signals going in. Earlier this year I heard that the changeover to the new system had been delayed again and was expected for sometime around March 2024.

GWR's website now lists that engineering works in relation to the scheme are now scheduled for the following dates with bus replacement services as given.

- Sunday 10th September:
Plymouth to Penzance / Par to Newquay / Truro to Falmouth Docks
Trains to run on Gunnislake, St. Ives and Looe lines and also Penzance to St. Erth.

This one is listed as being for "rail improvement work" so maybe some general maintenance also but I suspect some work on the signalling will also be done.

- Tuesday 31st October to Sunday 05th November:
St. Austell and St. Erth; also between Truro and Falmouth Docks.

- Monday 06th November to Sunday 12th November:
06/11 to 10/11: Liskeard to St. Erth; also Newquay and Falmouth Docks lines.
11/11 to 12/11: Plymouth to St. Erth; also Looe, Newquay and Falmouth Docks lines

Those are given as being for the signalling work. The scheme will see the abolition of the signalboxes and semaphores at Lostwithiel, Par and Truro (a shame) but I had heard that the Liskeard signalbox and semaphores were safe. I wonder if the works on the Looe line relate to plans for the Lodge Farm and Terras crossings that would see them converted from open crossings to ABCL.

Dave

Thank you Dave for that update.
Don't want to 'like' your post, as that implies I like the removal of semaphore signals (which I don't!).
Shame they are going, along with the characters who staffed the soon to be closed boxes.

That's progress I believe.
We look forward to 'signalling problems' similar to those in the Thames Valley  ::)

I am not keen on the removal of the semaphores either: even though mechanical signalling can act up a bit in hot weather (as I found out when a trainee signalman for a heritage railway) at least you don't get people pinching the cables! As for the boxes the ones at St. Blazey and Goonbarrow Junction will remain - someone told me on a Facebook group that Goonbarrow Jcn to Newquay will be worked by a panel but the area around Goonbarrow Junction and the line to St. Blazey will remain mechanical. I don't know the truth of that.

I have photos, externally, of the boxes at Par, Truro and Lostwithiel and will be down in Cornwall in a couple of weeks when I hope - without trespassing - to get a photo or two at Goonbarrow Junction. St. Blazey is impossible to snap though.


TVSC won't have a hand in things here. I have heard it suggested, more than once, that Thames Valley SCC will not be working anything south of the M5 overbridge at Bridgwater (near J24). Control for Lostwithiel to Truro will pass to a computerised workstation and will be located at Exeter.

Meanwhile I have also seen it mentioned on another forum that the eastern section of Plymouth PSB - Totnes (excl.) to Hemerdon - is due to be resignalled in 2024 and that will be controlled from a new workstation to be housed at Plymouth PSB rather than from the Plymouth panel: among the alterations in connection with the Totnes - Hemerdon work will be the abolition of the loop on the Up Main at Hemerdon. The closest I get to signalling nowadays is playing a certain computer game.

Dave

Am I reading this correctly!
Cornwall (well, parts) will be worked from Exeter, whilst Plymouth to Totnes will be worked from Plymouth.
Surely more effective for Cornwall to be worked from Plymouth, unless, of course, the future plan is for Exeter to control all West.

I think it was last Christmas, (or maybe the year before), that saw the sudden renaming of the existing IECC to Tyneside ROC, previously expected to be re-controlled to York.  Turned out the plan to have one location covering the entire stretch from Kings Cross to the border was now significantly changed.   I predict another mini-ROC at either Exeter or Plymouth, but probably not both?

Paul

I have heard it said that Exeter may become an ROC and eventually end up controlling everything southwest of the Bristol PSB boundary at Bridgwater: apparently TVSC isn't big enough and Plymouth wouldn't be big enough to house an ROC of the size needed to control all west either.

Dave

Sort of a shame.
Would have preferred a Plymouth mini ROC, but at least Exeter is still in Devon

Quite. If, however, you consider that each workstation on an ROC can require between 5 and 10 screens - see https://photos.signalling.org/picture?/25367/category/3217-2013_november - then you would need to expand the Plymouth PSB (or build a new one) but there isn't much space in the Plymouth station area for that I don't think. Exeter is a bigger building.

TBH I think having Kings Cross (and, as of very recently, Peterborough) controlled from York is silly: not only is putting all your eggs in one basket a very bad idea but I always say that there is also no substitute for local knowledge when it comes to things such as signalling. Kings Cross and Peterborough might have been better housed at Doncaster if that had been an ROC (or converted to one).

Dave

I remember a few years back being shown round TVSC and the screens were arranged in a giant horseshoe.  Paddington was at one end with Penzance planned for the other.  A signaller remarked he would be able to send a train out from London and before the end of his shift see it arrive in West Cornwall.

Obviously plans change. 

Someone's going suggest it could all be done from Bengaluru or Jaipur

As was National Rail enquiries a while ago - is it still sent overseas?

But consider the security implications of offshoring a critical safety function. Its not going to happen.

Cancellations to services at St Erth
Due to urgent repairs to the railway at St Erth the line is closed.
Train services running through this station may be cancelled or delayed by up to 60 minutes. Disruption is expected until 14:15 10/09.
Customer Advice
The Main Line in Cornwall is closed today for routine engineering works. Replacement road transport is operating, however it has not been possible to cover all of the advertised service, and coaches have been leaving Penzance full, meaning St. Erth has received very little service. We are urgently trying to source additional resources, however this is taking time. Limited road transport has been confirmed, however this is unlikely to arrive at St. Erth until 13:30 at the earliest.
Further Information
An update will follow within the next 2 hours.
...........
Last Updated:10/09/2023 12:44

GWR and NR are publishing information about the works. This comes from Network Rail...
https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/signal-upgrade-set-to-modernise-cornwalls-railway

...but doesn't mention that the line between Looe and Liskeard will be closed on Monday 20th November for level crossing upgrades (the equipment is, I presume, being installed over the weekend of 11th / 12th November during the blockade for the resignalling works): that is referred to here from GWR.
https://www.gwr.com/travel-information/travel-updates/planned-engineering/cornwall

Other upgrades to level crossings are, I believe, planned for the Plymouth to Gunnislake route but there seems to be no date for these yet.

I noticed today that there has been recent replacement of the signals at the north ends of Plymouth station platforms 4 to 8 and this heralds the start of the upgrades to signalling between Totnes and Plymouth to be done in several overnight closures of which the first will be 25th / 26th September with the work carrying on until early 2024: GWR's engineering works list confirms this and there will then be alterations to services the following morning. See NR news item above.

Dave

Another line closure has been listed in Cornwall for Tuesday 27th February to Sunday 10th March 2024. I had heard that the new signalling system was due for commissioning in the first quarter of 2024 so I guess that will be the period when that work will take place.

Dave

This is around the date that has been indicated to me for installation of the new footbridge at Lostwithiel.

All to be done in one go then by the sound of it: footbridge + signalling.

Dave

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0grvrrp

Cornwall signalling uograde is nearly finished. Control from Exeter is schedules to go live from February according to this  good BBC interview.

Thread already running on this:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=25152.0

You'll find them merged now.   

We have so many threads on The Coffee Shop  ;D ;D that it can be hard to know where to post.  The moderators team is happy to merge topics where appropriate - thank you Jamsdad for bringing this to our attention.

I am told that Truro SB closed at 0039hrs on Tuesday 27th February.
Truro (previously Truro East) Signal Box: operational 1899-2024.

Dave

So sad to read this, even knowing it was/is inevitable.
Many of my boyhood memories involve seeing the 'box' frequently (but never being inside).

Another one bites the dust

Lets hope that the replacement will give as long and as valuable service

I have also been past the box on many occasions: I would also have jumped at the chance to go inside had I been offered it.

Dave

I noted this morning that the Eastern Park and Ride site in Truro had a section marked off as GWR parking. No vehicles parked and I can't find any instructions as to how it's supposed to be used. No publicity means no users.

It is for Network Rail staff and equipment involved in the current Cornish works.
Also as overflow parking for rail replacement vehicles if required.
Network Rail has been using it all week.
Not for public use in any way.

At least the Liskeard Box will still stay. Apart from being a lovely building, it also has an interesting bit of history . A young Harold Wilson was signed up with Labour Party membership in the Liskeard Signal Box as the duty signalman was also secretary of the local Labour Party. I think this deserves a Blue Plaque!

The re-signalled area is now on signalmaps:

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#cornwall:1159

Not much to see until Monday 11th March mind you.

Blimey - I bet that signalman ended up in the House of Lords with Harold's other friends!!!  :)

I'm down in Cornwall for a couple nights. A little break along with some not too taxing mystery shopping jobs. Plenty of free time so I visited a few station to take some pictures.

Truro. The new signalling is in place and powered up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJDg8Nn4/IMG-20240306-162051.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xgp24T4/IMG-20240306-161439.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6q8Cq0R8/IMG-20240306-161831-2.jpg)

Par. The signal arms have gone. S&T busy today laying cabling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g00V1mJy/IMG-20240306-174929.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVQwFNJQ/IMG-20240306-174710-2.jpg)

St Erth. This box and the semaphore signalling are staying for the time being.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXLnbbzB/IMG-20240306-151036.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR5K3V2f/IMG-20240306-150702.jpg)

And finally... It was Wednesday. No trains stopping here today. #Jethro
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjcBKyk0/IMG-20240306-153432.jpg)

Great set of images, particularly the ones at Truro.

Thank you Justin, lovely shots

I presume CL, as seen on the Truro signal posts, refers to Cornwall. New workstation at Exeter 'box, yes?

I was down at Par on Tuesday and was told that all the signalling at Par has been accounted for and will be divided among four heritage railways (Chacewater, Bodmin & Wenford, Helston and, apparently, Plym Valley) and a museum or two so it is good to see that the redundant signalling, at least where Par is concerned - I don't know about the redundant signalling from Lostwithiel and Truro, will be found a good home rather than ending up in a skip.

I will be interested to see where the bracket semaphores from Par (PR3, PR5 and PR55) are going to end up but Network Rail said on a Twitter post on Tuesday 05th March to "Watch out for an update soon on how old equipment will be heading for new homes with heritage railway groups" so it seems more will become known soon.

Dave

I wonder if OpenTrains will be able to extend their coverage beyond Liskard. It took them a long while to add Marsh Barton station.

That must be Chasewater, Staffs, surely. The station at Chacewater Cornwall (old junction for the Truro-Newquay line via Perranporth) is not part of a heritage line. Unless they mean the Lappa Valley narrow gauge line, built on part of the trackbed of this branch line?

In any case, it's great that these Western Region semaphores are going to live on in preservation, mainly in the South West.   

They will, and the site owner has been more active of late, but it might take some time.  In the meantime, it’s all shown on Signalmaps which is also free, and in some ways better anyway.

Must admit to being surprised that the old materiel has been removed prior to full in service operations of its replacement. Network Rail Western displaying massive chutzpah.

Love it!  ;)

Standard rail practise isn't it? Don't I remember that old trains were withdrawn with indecent haste before the new ones were fully operational - or is my memory faulty there?

I’m not sure it is quite the same.  With signalling you reach a point where old cabling has to make way for new.  Old signal heads for new etc.  After that there’s no going back and you are committed to making the new system work. 

Indeed so. And a slight slip on my part: Network Rail (Western) put out this video on 7th March which says three, rather than four, heritage lines (Helston, B&W and Plym Valley) are benefitting from the redundant equipment and the Helston line is getting some of the redundant trackwork too.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1765718838627213317

Dave

Thank you for posting that link. Heartwarming to see the local railway fraternity protecting its heritage.   

First trains up and down seem to be on a go-slow!
Next departures speeding up somewhat.

5S43 0431 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to Truro
 This service is partially cancelled
This service was cancelled between Truro and Penzance due to a problem with signalling equipment (J3).

Explains the go-slow.

Lovely to be able to ‘see’ where the trains are west of Liskeard for the first time ever.

07:43 Falmouth Docks to Truro due 08:11
07:43 Falmouth Docks to Truro due 08:11 is being delayed at Falmouth Docks.
This is due to engineering works not being finished on time.

Wonder if that is the same issue as the signalling 'issue'.

Which site?
Opentrains not yet.
Traksy has the track layout to Penzance but not the signals beyond Liskard.
Signalmaps is unsearchable.

I'm looking at it now, on the Cornwall workstation of Exeter PSB, on Signalmaps

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#cornwall:4171

Thanks for that. I found that site very difficult as there does not seem to be a search box.  I got Paddington, Liverpool St and a number of other locations but not what I wanted.

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#cornwall:1387

Apologies, duplicated

Falmouth branch having problems this morning -
Cancellations to services between Truro and Falmouth Docks
Due to a fault with the radio system between the driver and the signaller between Truro and Falmouth Docks fewer trains are able to run.
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed. Disruption is expected until 14:00 11/03.

Click on ‘Select Line’ and it’ll list all the maps.  Not the easiest to find what you’re looking for I agree.

Mid-Cornwall workstation at Exeter PSB.  CL for CornwalL

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/exeter?fbclid=IwAR10Dta6R0cNRYCnIF5yZajblSVu7bajmwPkvXDG8lSIkDDCT05WDCUOV0s

New extended Cornish map now online.

Oh dear (teething problems?)
Cancellations to services between Truro and Falmouth Docks
Due to a fault with the signalling system between Truro and Falmouth Docks fewer trains are able to run.
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled or delayed. Disruption is expected until 18:45 12/03.
Customer Advice
Due to a fault with the signal system near Penryn, fewer trains are having to run on the Truro to Falmouth branch line.

We have had to reduce the service this evening in order to minimise delays on the route.

To be honest, linking issues at Penryn with the new arrangements when similar issues have occurred regularly previously isn't as black and white as could be inferred from today's information.

https://traksy.uk/live/M+8+BODMNPW (https://traksy.uk/live/M+8+BODMNPW)

...and, for the record, the resignalled area is now on Traksy, too.

I think it's a shame that the new signals aren't being controlled from somewhere in Cornwall. I wonder if timings will get slightly quicker as a result of the re-signalling?  I recall Cornwall’s fastest long-distance timings - HST times from 31 years ago – the 17 May 1993 – 3 Oct 1993 timetable:-
Mondays – Fridays
05.19 Penzance – Paddington 10.00  (4 hours 41 minutes)
08.25 Edinburgh - Penzance 18.35  (10 hours 10 minutes)
Saturdays
10.30 Paddington - Penzance 15.10 (4 hours 40 minutes)
Faster than today, information courtesy of the National Railway Museum Search Engine Archive in York, a very useful resource.
Of course, these timings were before fines for late arrivals made schedules slacker.

I personally prefer the train to take a few minutes longer and be on time. It may have happened be because of fines, or because the railways are busier, or because of some additional stops (out of Cornwall, looking at Chippenham over the years). My preference is to be on time into St. Erth and not a few minutes late and seeing the St.Ives trains leaving as we arrive.

Cancellations to services between Truro and Falmouth Docks
Due to a fault with the signalling system between Truro and Falmouth Docks the line is blocked.
Train services running to and from these stations will be cancelled. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
Customer Advice
We're sorry for the delay to your journey.

A fault with the signalling system, which tells the signaller where trains are means we cannot run trains between Truro and Falmouth Docks.
AND
Cancellations to services between Truro and Redruth
Due to a fault with the signalling system between Truro and Redruth the line towards Penzance is blocked.
Train services running through these stations will be cancelled or delayed. Disruption is expected until 17:00 15/03.

16:25 Looe to Liskeard due 16:51
16:25 Looe to Liskeard due 16:51 will be cancelled.
This is due to a fault with the signalling system.

Some pretty awful delays this afternoon.  Not an ideal start to the new signalling system's life.

Yes a pretty awful rail service today on the Plymouth to Penzance main line and the busy Falmouth branch; causing long delays, much disruption and cancellation to many hundreds of rail passengers intended journeys.
Some were expecting some inevitable disruption after the commissioning of the new signalling system at the start of this week, but not at the scale of disruption experienced today.

I suspect Network Rail’s most senior, non Swindon based Manager, their Director for Devon & Cornwall may, rightly, have to face the press to explain what the problems are and what is being done to rectify these problems to restore a reliable and punctual train service, if today’s level of disruption is repeated in the coming days and weeks following further planned signalling upgrade works and line closures etc. this coming weekend west of Exeter.



 

It reminds me of a drawing of a modern signalling control centre with consoles and screens and off to the left there is a sign which reads, "In case of emergency, break glass".

And there visible, behind a glass door, is a full manual lever frame and block instruments.  :)

News item on the sleeper service starting again today Friday 22 March on BBC south west local news

Report should be shown again at XX:55 and XX:25am past the hour

12:50 Penzance to Cardiff Central due 18:20
12:50 Penzance to Cardiff Central due 18:20 will no longer call at Weston-Super-Mare.
It has been previously delayed and is now 29 minutes late from St Germans.
This is due to a fault with the signalling system.