Great Western Coffee Shop

From SWR via TWSW who have been invited to respond.  I suggest inputs via this thread by 12th August, and I can then pass back to the board at TWSW.


Document at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/SWR_Dec22_Consult.pdf - only for logged in members.   This is a members only thread and I'll feed back through the defined channel. However, members may also wish to contact other "organisations with a strategic or representative role" too with their thoughts.

Or roughly translated "We know that passengers and the wider community are going to hate these widespread service cuts, so we intend to exclude them completely from the consultation process until it is too late for them to do anything about it"

Absolutely disgraceful. There is only one right, decent and principled response for TravelWatch SouthWest to give to this "Consultation" - Boycott it, say very publicly why, and encourage as many stakeholders as possible to do the same until SWR back down and allow passengers and the communities they come from their rightful say.

An evening-only Reading–Salisbury is an interesting curiosity…

A couple of initial things jumped out at me:

1) The PM Exeter - Honiton/Axminster shorts being cancelled.  This is really unfortunate and I wonder if GWR would be able to step in and provide something similar to replace these SWR services.

2)  I'm originally from Bookham in Surrey and Waterloo - Guildford via Leatherhead is being reduced from half hourly to hourly off peak.  The consultation makes great play of only Bookham losing out but surely the key thing about that service is the through link it provides between Epsom, Leatherhead and Guildford as well as the fact it provides Bookham - a very decently used station 322,142 estimated entries and exits in the last non Covid affected year, 18-19 (and 290,572 in 19-20) - with its half hourly service. 

One bugbear of mine is that this kind of local service hasn't been actively promoted to the locals for decades.  Big populations, good train services - basically not promoted.  That's not a go at SWR - I don't think anyone has done it - SWT, NSE, BR (S) - probably since the 60s.  One exception is Thameslink when they ran the Luton (I think) - Guildford service for a short while many years ago.   Always thought that was a strange one but it did restablish a through service between Epsom, Leatherhead and Guildford.

... and always has been, for the two years it's been running. It was initially only on Sundays; now it's Mon-Fri but they were and are just to Reading late on and returning ECS. There's now three two-way services on Sunday afternoon as well, but it's hard to tell whether that's related to works closing lines. Is what's proposed any curioser than that?

Probably just there as a route learner/refresher for BSK-RDG, I guess.

Unfortunately it was reduced to an hourly service last year both peak and off peak. Page 17 of that document wrongly shows 2 trains in the May 2021 timetable for Guildford to Waterloo via Bookham and Leatherhead. I'm mildly pleased that they hope to re-introduce a half hourly service in the peaks but would have been happier if that were off-peak too.

Not great they are trying to make a Covid cut - completely understandable during lockdowns - permanent.  I do hope there is a big local campaign which makes the point about promoting the service too. 

No need to guess - SWR give their rationale as: "Operating these services to Reading allows us to maintain crew competency over this route which can be used during disruption or planned engineering work to divert services to Reading."

It does look as if, having decided to run them anyway, they are trying to make at least the part up to Basingstoke a useful service.

It makes it likely that the fastest journey from London to Salisbury (and vice versa), for significant periods in the evening, will be via Paddington and Reading - especially given that the consultation document says "replacing London Waterloo to Salisbury services".

I wonder when that was last the case, if ever? (Perhaps at a time when the GWR and LSWR were in competition?)

Not a chance. The DfT want to keep the reigns on costs, so a *very* good business case would be required, versus a 'nice to have' service (that may, yes, encourage more travellers)

Performance has improved no end, and customer satisfaction is up. Packed trains, in excess of capacity complaints will be the only way to get the DfT to sanction an increase from current levels, or services missing that need to be reinstated for school or work shift times. Outside those parameters, wishful thinking.

Let's just say, we will see.  A lot depends on whether locals, MPs etc just shrug their shoulders or make a fuss.  I don't think these cuts would have been attempted pre-Covid and it's far too early to say where demand will finish up as we emerge from it (as far as we are ever going to in the foreseeable future).

It's no secret that GWR have long wanted to run locals to Honiton and Axminster.  Here are paths - that probably need improving - that GWR could slot into if (massive if) they have the will, the stock, the crews and - crucially - the DfT's permission.   Far from impossible but if everyone simply shrugs their shoulders, probably not likely to happen.

yep, agree.

But the DfT will want to wait & see also, and then reinstate where shown to be necessary. IMHO

Informed feedback via email:

Need to bear in mind that farebox extraction services aren't likely to survive now that all farebox money goes one way - to the DfT.

But what the DfT now need to realise is what happens to the customers currently being carried on these services - they are still likely to travel, so unless the 'main' services on the route(s) can currently cope with these additional pax, then they'll need to retain services that can.

On the Bristol services, I wonder whether the "via Warminster and Salisbury" SWR fares will survive for very long or whether it will soon become part of "any permitted" tickets set by GWR as part of a process of "simplification"

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bathfaresLON21.jpg)

Now
... 25 passengers per train from a combinations of stations from Bristol to Trowbridge headed for London
... on 4 trains per day (5th being too late for London)
... spending an average of £25 less for their return journey than they would via Reading into Paddington
... for 7 days a week
... 50 weeks per year
works out as £875,000 per annum extra income if those fares are abolished and everyone still travels to London anyway by train.

Chris Grayling and local councillors are objecting to the proposal.

From Leatherhead Living (https://newleatherheadliving.wordpress.com/2021/08/07/bookham-train-service-to-reduce-to-one-per-hour-on-permanent-basis-2-fewer-morning-peak-trains-at-leatherhead/)

My journeys to and from work are probably about an hour before the peaks so I'm not sure what the current usage is. My trains see at least 20 people get on in the morning and similar get off in the afternoon.

Hi - first post in a while, please be gentle - I've slung a cut and paste from the consultation PDF below. There are a number of aspects to the announcement of a prior decision on the Bristol - Waterloo services which... stink:

* The cessation of the (popular) Bristol-Waterloo service is not part of the December 2022 consultation so should not have been announced via a single paragraph 37 pages into a report on something completely different - a very Vogon-like tactic. This approach is (surely deliberately) damaging to the prospects that travellers will see this decision reversed.

* A previous attempt to cease this service resulted in an early day motion in the House of Commons and a pile-on from 30 MPs who lent their name to the cause.

* It may only be the Department for Transport that thinks this service duplicates other trains. Its users are very well aware that it does not.

* It is poor practice to cut services in an unconsidered way during a pandemic.

* This is an example of an organisation (the Department for Transport) making changes under cover of a national crisis (Covid) and this should be called out and not encouraged.

* There is very little awareness of the withdrawal of the Bristol to Waterloo trains among the travelling public and indeed with, now, a three month lead time, reduced opportunity for people to make adjustments to their travel mode when these services cease. Perhaps the first thing that should happen is this proposed change should be postponed to 2022 to match those in the rest of this document in order that a proper consultation can be followed through on what is a valued service that has been known to load to capacity.

* The untruth in the concluding sentence: 'Great Western Railway will continue to meet demand on the line' has angered me - often, the railway has done anything but 'meet demand' for travel between Salisbury and Bristol.

Perhaps the cessation of this service deserves its own thread on this forum - and would the thread be better off in a public part of the site?

Mark

"SALISBURY TO BRISTOL TEMPLE MEADS
The route between Salisbury and Bristol Temple Meads has historically been served by both SWR and Great Western Railway, with SWR running  ve of the average 25 daily services in the May 2019 timetable.
Following a separate review with the Department for Transport, SWR will withdraw its current three daily services from December 2021 as duplicating services between the two operators does not provide good value for the taxpayer.
Great Western Railway will continue to meet demand on the line and services will connect into London bound trains at Salisbury, Bath and Westbury."

Yes, that's probably now appropriate. The news came, as you suggest, from the wider 2022 consultation which is not (why not, I wonder!) public.

Your intro post is excellent - I'm going to suggest you start a new thread in SWR services (any member can start a thread there - quick link http://www.passenger.chat/b42 .  I and others can then follow up with some 'intelligence' and a public discussion.   By YOU starting the thread it will have more weight - not "there goes Graham ... again!"

Your points are all excellent - let's answer them in public, where all the decision makers can read them if they happen to visit - and you might be surprised ...  ;D

Thanks for this - I'll do just that and start a public thread.

Mark

BBC South Today had a short piece on this consultation last night. It just had the basic facts in it, with one big exception - the dates. Of course, letting on this introductory mention was six weeks into a seven-week consultation period would have made them look rather inept.

The piece ended with the half-truth that passengers could not contribute. Of course those that were, or could be, members of one of those mysterious "stakeholder" organisations could contribute. But, in some cases, only if they knew about it six weeks ago.

Note to forum members - TravelWatch SouthWest has submitted inputs today with major comment and request on the Bristol and West Wiltshire to Waterloo through services.  Thanks to the various members who have individually checked our comments on that matter - you'll know who you are.  Steps taken to ensure the message for this December reaches the key players strong and prompt.

I used the morning Bristol TM  to london Waterloo service regularly i have ever since Wakes and Borders/ATW ran services as it was ideal.tp get to south London.

SWR have had a rather choice response from me  along with some ideas on how to keep the service and further improve it.

I've written to the Welsh government as I know I'm not the only person from South wakes who traveled to Bristol TM to connect with itin fact theres been requests for it to be extended to Cardiff.  We were told Rolling stock was one reason why we couldn't get our wish.

Welsh government coming under pressure about the sky high fares charged by GWR and  there's anger about Grandunions original application being rejected.  Competition would help operators long term and I think a regular 2 hourly Cardiff to London waterloo service offering cheaper fares would be well used especially for customers wanting south London especially Clapham Junction. Since I drive for NX on the 507/509 Cardiff to London coach services ive found a large amount of customers are requested get off at Earls Court and a few have said they either getting a local bus or walking to Olympic get a service to Clapham.

Since GWR Portsmouth services leave Bristol TM  around 20 past each hour the Swr service left at like 0850 that offereca 2tph to Salisbury etc

I'm.hoping SWRhave sense, can't help thinking if we still had SWT this wouldn't be up for the chop

Given all operators currently dance to the DfT’s tune, what makes you think that SWR have any real involvement in the decision, and what makes you think that it would have been any different under SWR?

A couple of years back there was talk of a real need for extra Bristol - Cardiff services (and remember http://www.sewweb.info - asleep but not deceased! )  - and with MetroWest, logic is 4 trains an hour Cardiff to Bristol - two all stations services, one carrying on to Weston-super-mare and one to Basingstoke (all stations to there) then Woking, Clapham Junction and Waterloo.  Other trains in the pattern are of course the Cardiff - Penzance and the Swansea - Portsmouth, skipping many of the new stations proposed in South Wales, Pilning, Patchway, Horfield and Lawrence Hill.


Railfuture (Wessex Branch) took the lead for Railfuture in answering the consultation and here is what they wrote:
It is significant that the former (retired) MD of SWT is a director of Railfuture and key active member of the Wessex Branch  :D

Looking for a case study - Members area as not quite in public ... I have posted this on social media:

---

Hi, do you (or have you) used the direct trains from Bradford-on-Avon or Trowbridge to London (Waterloo)? Would you be prepared to help the campaign to retain them by appearing on BBC Points West next week to let viwers know how useful they are to you personally? 

The BBC are doing a story on my petition - which is at https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/598397 - and are looking for a "case study". It's good fun doing TV like this, and the BBC look after you; their tough questions are typically reserved for the campaign organisers (that's to help us put the case across) and the organisations targetted by the campaign. 

Not everyone is happy to appear on TV - if you are, and have used the service, please let me know.  If you want to know more about what it might entail, please ask.

Please feel free to tell others / suggest people to get in touch with.  But I am not going quite as far as making this post public

{Mods, this is a bit ranty: no offence taken if you find this is not helpful and put it in cold storage}

Pursuing the time-sensitive issue of the Bristol to Waterloo trains, I've found the conversation with Transport Focus has been hampered by long turnaround times (at their end, the issue of these trains seems to have them up a tree). I've pasted their latest reply at the end of this post.

Please, no-one should start digging into the document describing Transport Focus's statutory duties as that's probably a very deep and dark mine to enter - and in any case was last updated in 2015, so, in parts, it even has a European Union flavour to it (and one wonders if those requirements have been rolled over into UK law and are still in force).

(Here's a link to it, mind)
https://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.net/migrated/Statutory%20duties%20of%20Transport%20Focus%202015.pdf

In their response to me, I'm not loving the phrase: 'Transport Focus hasn't got a formal role in the compilation of timetables' and not comforted by 'Transport Focus will definitely continue to keep a close eye on the situation'. If they're not able to do more than make sensible recommendations that can then be totally ignored (as continued responses to MPs from the secretary of state indicate) then as an individual passenger I do not feel 'Represented' by this organisation - but also concerned that they may have found themselves in a hostage situation and their staff are lying, hands bound, in a basement.

I'm also thinking 'What could Transport Focus do better here?'

Well, when presented with this behaviour by the Department for Transport, they could have a checklist to hand and could run through whether what is proposed meets the requirements of the equality act or would be looked upon unfavourably by the Markets and Competition Authority - rather than leaving this to individual passengers / campaigners / the likes of Graham, no matter how dedicated he is - and it appears that he is very dedicated.

It shouldn't be left to the customer to 'lawyer up' and if Transport Focus finds that they're making recommendations only to be ignored in the same way that, at the Trowbridge meeting, the public were ignored, it would be good if they had additional cards up their sleeves.

<rant>I'm sure they'll send a representative to accompany me as, in just six weeks time, I step down from the 19:20 departure from Waterloo at Salisbury, and instead of the 10 to 15 minute connection indicated in writing by the Secretary of State for Transport, there's the full 50 minutes or more to enjoy the ambience of a thinly populated interchange station.</rant>

<rant>Oh and the waiting room'll be closed so even more reason to be at the platform end, videoing the train crew taking the portion of the Exeter service that formerly headed usefully to Bristol, off to the depot.</rant>

<rant>I also note that while Transport Focus issues regular newsletters, these tend to be divided into three sections headed 'Scotland', 'Wales', 'London' - though October's was particularly bold and also included 'Birmingham'. I'm wondering if they care how this looks to... everywhere in the UK that is not in Scotland, Wales or the city state of London. We are after all jointly funding Transport Focus to the tune of around £6 million per annum.</rant>

So, I'm minded to respond and suggest that they flag with everyone, the organisation that funds them included, the potential that this breaches the Equality Act 2010 - and at least pretend that they've had the Markets and Competition Authority on the phone.

Mark

Transport Focus response:

"I’ve now received advice from my colleagues. I’ve been reminded that Transport Focus hasn’t got a formal role in the compilation of timetables. However, we encourage consultation with users but we have no rights in this regard. On this occasion SWR consulted and we would like to assure you that we raised concerns about the proposed withdrawal of services, making our position clear in our response, as indeed have lots of other people. We advised that the changes to the West of England services are deferred until 2022 to give the opportunity for proper consideration to passenger’s feedback.

As I mentioned earlier SWR consulted us and now we’re waiting for the results of that consultation. Though nothing’s been received as yet Transport Focus is pushing for an answer.

I appreciate this may seem a bit evasive but Transport Focus will definitely continue to keep a close eye on the situation."

I would leave that chocolate teapot to one side and get a better one, if I were you.

I think they may have to much to do I recived this in an email today.

Agreed: I've just bought a National Express coachcard, but am feeling sorry for rail users in Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge, Warminster etc as they do not have so many coach services on the doorstep.

This is all water under the bridge now, but...

... thinking of yesterday's online meeting with the rail company people, for the Bristol to Waterloo service SWR flagged costs of £1 million per annum: I can't recall if that was the costs of operating the service but without the income, or was this their balance sheet for the service?

I believe we now have at least screenshots of the slides this time, SWR having failed to respond to a request for the slides they used at the Trowbridge meeting. As I was working from a mobile phone yesterday, from here, they weren't quite visible.

Also, on the use of the service, when challenged that the May 2019 window for passenger numbers were not representative of previous years ('cos sustained SWR industrial action at the time), I had the impression that the SWR rep felt that he was on somewhat shaky ground.

With a decision made by the DfT in February, the UK needs now to have the same conversation that it had in the mid 1960s - the one that resulted in the 1968 transport act, and the acknowledgment that certain railway services would never pay their way but were nevertheless socially valuable and worthy of a secure existence.

Then, eventually, the equivalent of a 'Regional Railways' could evolve, and be given just enough breathing space to act on the enterprise to be hungry for the new business to be won for the railway by the development of innovative inter-regional train services.

#AndThenIWokeUp

Mark