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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: grahame on August 18, 2021, 02:56:29



Title: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on August 18, 2021, 02:56:29
Here we go again ... the August indicators, publicity, speculation, criticism of what fare rises we can expect in January 2022

From Berkshire Live (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/train-ticket-price-rise-announcement-21337172) amongst others.

Quote
Train passengers will get an indication today, Wednesday 18 August, of how much ticket prices may rise, amid calls for fares to be frozen.

The cap on the annual increase in most regulated rail fares is normally linked to the previous July’s Retail Prices Index (RPI) measure of inflation.

This year’s figure will be announced by the Office for National Statistics at 7am, with economic forecasts suggesting it will be around 3.6 per cent.

Rail fares are usually increased every January. But the coronavirus pandemic meant this year’s increase was delayed until March 1.

Ticket prices in England and Wales rose by an average of around 2.6 per cent, representing RPI for July 2020 plus one percentage point.

The Scottish Government imposed smaller rises of 1.6 per cent and 0.6 per cent for peak and off-peak travel respectively.

IMHO - it would be a really good week for The Government to announce something that's a gesture to encouraging traffic - a fig leaf to passengers.  Sadly, I would be amazed if they follow that suggestion.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: broadgage on August 18, 2021, 07:07:23
Rail fares rise every year.
Excise duty on road fuel is frozen every year.

What happened to the climate emergency ?


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on August 18, 2021, 07:27:27
Rail fares rise every year.
Excise duty on road fuel is frozen every year.

What happened to the climate emergency ?

The climate emergency is subservient to the need to be re-elected at the next general election. Power corrupts.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: CyclingSid on August 18, 2021, 07:37:51
One part of the equation is here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000)


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ellendune on August 18, 2021, 07:43:52
One part of the equation is here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000)

But the government say they will not use this to set rail fare rises in 2022!


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Lee on August 18, 2021, 07:51:04
Rail fares rise every year.
Excise duty on road fuel is frozen every year.

What happened to the climate emergency ?

The climate emergency is subservient to the need to be re-elected at the next general election. Power corrupts.

And to think I rely on you for the sunnier, less cynical point of view  ;D


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 18, 2021, 08:17:54
Rail fares rise every year.
Excise duty on road fuel is frozen every year.

What happened to the climate emergency ?

The climate emergency is subservient to the need to be re-elected at the next general election. Power corrupts.

Demand for fuel is virtually inelastic and price has very little effect on it.

All you achieve by increasing it is penalising those on lower incomes as it is extremely regressive.

None of the major parties made any proposal to increase fuel duties in 2015 or 2017 so it would appear not to be an electoral issue.

That said, an above inflation rise in rail fares would seem to be utter madness in the current climate where demand is already falling through the floor.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on August 18, 2021, 08:27:32
One part of the equation is here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000)

But the government say they will not use this to set rail fare rises in 2022!

RPI% is still used I believe, but that measure is no longer an official measure & not released by ONS, but calculated separately


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: stuving on August 18, 2021, 09:58:35
One part of the equation is here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58254000)

But the government say they will not use this to set rail fare rises in 2022!

RPI% is still used I believe, but that measure is no longer an official measure & not released by ONS, but calculated separately

Not so; while ONS have made it clear they wish to stop publishing RPI, no decision has been made. What they say now is:
Quote
The Retail Prices Index (RPI) and its derivatives have been assessed against the Code of Practice for Official Statistics and found not to meet the required standard for designation as National Statistics; the RPI, its sub-components and the RPIX continue to be published as they are tied to long-term contracts.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on August 18, 2021, 12:02:18
Ok, yes.....long-dayed gilts are tied to RPI I understand, so 10 years to wait for its abolishment.

3.8% is the RPI% for July - the Government state no decision yet as they're "considering a range of options"


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on August 18, 2021, 13:24:07
Press Release from Railfuture

Quote
Time for Action, not Words on Rail fares

Today saw the release of July’s inflation figures, including a RPI rate of 3.8% and a CPI rate of 2.0%.  The RPI rate, often with an extra 1% has been used in recent years to set the following year’s increase in rail fares for England & Wales. But rail campaigners are calling for change in approach.

“The Government will no doubt tell us in due course that it is only fair that if the cost of living is increasing the passenger should continue to pay their share.  But this is missing the point.  It isn’t the fare that determines how much passengers, overall, contribute to the railway – it is the fare multiplied by the number of passengers that matters” said Neil Middleton from the campaign group Railfuture.  “At a time when there are so few captive passengers for the railway, with business meetings that can take place on Zoom, and ‘Work from Home’ as the routine, the reduction in demand from an increased price easily leads to an overall loss of revenue”.

We hear of talk for significant restructure of rail fares – promised many times, most recently in the Williams Shapps review, but no action to actually make it happen.  At a time when public transport can so easily help us to achieve a low carbon life, it is disappointing that the “more of the same” approach seems to be seen as the low risk option.  It isn’t – a new approach to rail fares can stimulate demand, increase revenue and reduce the burden to taxpayers. 

Rail already struggles to demonstrate value at times – consider Newcastle to London tomorrow for a full day’s work.  Key choices include:

Train with flexibility: £310 (could be £325 next year)

Train without flexibility: £251 (could be £263 next year)

Drive £40.48 (petrol, parking at Stanmore Underground station and fare to central London)

Commuters will also see significant price increases – our table below shows price increases for commuters for next year assuming an inflationary increase of 4.8% is applied.

The temptation for travellers to choose alternatives is already high – each time that happens, the taxpayer steps in to make up that missed revenue.

It’s time for the Government to take action to actually do something about their words (“considering a variety of options”) – in order to ensure that:

1. Revenue for the railway increases by stopping a focus on just half the challenge – income per person matters a lot less than total revenue.

2. We are all encouraged towards to transport that’s more carbon efficient – LNER’s calculator shows CO2 emissions of 35.0kg for the train, and 144.9kg for the car (for the return journey).

A good first step would be to announce that the historic RPI + 1% habit has been retired and commit to a better choice – do not forget that the Office for Statistics Regulation de-designated RPI as a National Statistic 8 years ago.

If the Government is serious about revenue, not fares, and carbon efficiency, setting next year’s increase to zero would be a powerful message.  Messages that say we don’t want it getting worse would include limiting it to the lower of CPI and the increase in fuel duty (if any).

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/rf_2022_01.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/rf_2022_02.jpg)



Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 18, 2021, 15:28:44
Generally speaking the Government uses RPI when it comes to taking, and CPI when it comes to giving.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: broadgage on August 18, 2021, 15:53:01
Perhaps excise duties on road fuel and fares on the railway should be linked.

If rail fares are to be increased by say 4% then fuel duty should increase similarly.
Or put another way, if fuel duty is frozen, then rail fares should be.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 18, 2021, 16:16:21
Perhaps excise duties on road fuel and fares on the railway should be linked.

If rail fares are to be increased by say 4% then fuel duty should increase similarly.
Or put another way, if fuel duty is frozen, then rail fares should be.

If the price of apples rises by 4%, why don't we raise the price of pears by a similar amount?


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: broadgage on August 18, 2021, 16:28:43
Perhaps excise duties on road fuel and fares on the railway should be linked.

If rail fares are to be increased by say 4% then fuel duty should increase similarly.
Or put another way, if fuel duty is frozen, then rail fares should be.

If the price of apples rises by 4%, why don't we raise the price of pears by a similar amount?


Not comparable at all. Apples and pears are crops the prices of which vary due to fluctuations in harvests, and varying consumer demand. Prices are not set by the government but by supply versus demand.

Petrol prices are largely controlled by the government as they can adjust the rate of duty which is a significant proportion of the retail price.
Train fares are largely under government control.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 18, 2021, 16:46:02
Perhaps excise duties on road fuel and fares on the railway should be linked.

If rail fares are to be increased by say 4% then fuel duty should increase similarly.
Or put another way, if fuel duty is frozen, then rail fares should be.

If the price of apples rises by 4%, why don't we raise the price of pears by a similar amount?


Not comparable at all. Apples and pears are crops the prices of which vary due to fluctuations in harvests, and varying consumer demand. Prices are not set by the government but by supply versus demand.

Petrol prices are largely controlled by the government as they can adjust the rate of duty which is a significant proportion of the retail price.
Train fares are largely under government control.

I'd be interested to understand what you think that would achieve, other than disproportionately affecting poorer people and increasing the price of other goods, because you can be assure that the additional cost would be passed on. It would have virtually no impact on demand.

You might want to consider the price of crude oil, international exchange rates and other market forces and global events when it comes to the price of fuel, but apologies for the overhead shot.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: broadgage on August 18, 2021, 18:07:05
I would foresee two different possible outcomes from my suggested policy.

If road fuel duties were frozen, then rail fares would also be frozen and use encouraged.

If rail fares were increased then the duty on road fuel would be similarly increased, and consumption thereby decreased. I do not believe that demand for road fuel is inelastic. Higher prices do moderate demand. Despite the moaning about fuel prices, many drivers use fuel very wastefully, examples include.

Driving fast up to a red light and then braking hard, rather than coasting.
Exceeding the speed limit.
Making needless very short journeys rather than walking to the local shop.
Driving children to schools that are within walking distance.
Not thinking ahead and combining journeys.

In the case of replacement vehicles, then fuel consumption would be considered when looking for a new vehicle. Possibly even an electric vehicle.

In the case of delivery vehicles more attention would be given to full loads rather than several partly loaded vehicles. And of course more costly road fuel might reduce demand for freight, no more trucking vegetables hundreds of miles for packing, and then back again.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on August 19, 2021, 12:19:58
Generally speaking the Government uses RPI when it comes to taking, and CPI when it comes to giving.

Until it comes to staff pay rises, which also are STILL based on RPI (usually +x%) - and staff costs are a big component of railway costs. It is no surprise that the Government still uses RPI%.

The recent Rail Improvement Plan document aims to sort this sort of anaomaly out & is likely to cause some friction amongst the unions. We'll see. but until the Government breaks the RPI% link on staff costs, there's no way they'll move away from RPI% on fare rises. IMHO


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Rhydgaled on August 21, 2021, 20:21:53
I'd be interested to understand what you think that would achieve, other than disproportionately affecting poorer people and increasing the price of other goods, because you can be assure that the additional cost would be passed on. It would have virtually no impact on demand.
Increasing the cost of road fuel might have no impact on demand for travel, but if the additional fuel duty revenue was used to increase subsidies for bus services (running more frequent services and/or reducing bus fares (I forget whether bus operators have to pay fuel duty)) a larger portion of that demand could be satisfied by bus rather than car travel? I suggest increasing bus subsidy rather than rail because the rail network doesn't reach everywhere so, while cheaper rail fares would lesson the impact on poorer people in some areas, in areas without a rail service poorer people would be disadvantaged if the additional subsidy was targeted at rail.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: mjones on August 21, 2021, 22:10:44
.


Demand for fuel is virtually inelastic and price has very little effect on it.


In the longer term the price of fuel makes a big difference to the types of cars people buy, which is why cars in the USA have historically been much less efficient than those in Europe. And fuel price does affect demand- DfT's traffic growth forecasts take the cost of driving into account and are higher than they would have been had fuel duty not been frozen.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on August 28, 2021, 05:01:29
Campaign for Better Transport call for a fares freeze ...

Quote
Fair fares?

The effects of climate change are being felt around the world. Earlier this month, the UN chief warned of a "code red for humanity". And with the UK hosting the UN Climate Change Conference this year, it's even more important that our country reduce its carbon emissions.

So it makes no sense that people travelling by green public transport must pay increasing fares while fuel duty for drivers has been frozen for a decade and the Government is considering cutting air passenger duty.

Last week the Government deferred a decision on whether rail fares should increase. We think fares should be frozen for next year, followed by a full review: we need to rebalance pricing in favour of greener modes.

Over the past week, we've been making this case on the BBC, in the Daily Express, the Guardian, the Telegraph and The Times, and supporters of public transport have helped us to spread the message on social media. If you use Twitter or Facebook please follow us, join the conversation and share our posts with your friends.

Raising fares would hinder vital efforts to bring down transport's carbon emissions, and worsen air pollution and traffic-clogged streets. Together let's call for a #FaresFreeze.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: broadgage on October 16, 2021, 11:23:34
It is reported that petrol and diesel prices are approaching the prices that prevailed about 10 years ago, with much complaining from the motoring lobby.
I would say, lucky motorists who despite 10 years of inflation are still paying about the same price as 10 years ago, and have indeed benefitted greatly from much reduced prices in the intervening years.

And by how much have train fares increased in the same 10 years ? Very substantially indeed in most cases, and often for services considered to be getting worse.

Cheaper road fuel and ever increasing rail fares are not going to encourage greener transport choices.



Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Mark A on December 02, 2021, 13:49:11
Rail fare rise announcement postponed:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/01/ministers-postponed-announcement-of-rail-fares-increase-leak-confirms


Title: Rail fares to rise, March 2022
Post by: grahame on December 17, 2021, 12:39:47
BBC TV (breaking news, 12:39)

"Rail fares will rise by 3.8% in March 2022"

But if you're lucky enough to be delayed by 15 minutes or more, you may get some back

Quote
12:17 Westbury to Swindon due 12:59
13:15 Swindon to Westbury due 13:56

13:15 Swindon to Westbury due 13:56 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.

If you hold a valid single, return, or weekly ticket, you will be able to claim compensation for delays of 15 minutes or more. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR.com/DelayRepay


Title: Re: Rail fares to rise, March 2022
Post by: grahame on December 17, 2021, 12:54:46
Quotes are from BBC News channel

Quote
"Regulated fares"
- but who sets the others under management contracts not franchises?

Quote
Usually 6 month RPI ... this time based on JULY 2021 (however, it has gone up since then!)

Govt says "look - taxpayer had put in £14bn so a balance between recouping costs and not putting people off" (paraphrasing BBC).  Noting 100k flexiseasons sold


Title: Re: Rail fares to rise, March 2022
Post by: ChrisB on December 17, 2021, 16:58:41
Quote
Usually 6 month RPI ... this time based on JULY 2021 (however, it has gone up since then!)

It has been based on the July RPI every year in recent times, even last year when the increase was first delayed to March from January. This time we *gain* as the September RPI (two months later following the delay in increase date) was higher.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on December 17, 2021, 16:59:26
Not for long it wasn't


Title: Re: Rail fares to rise, March 2022
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 17, 2021, 17:42:29
Well, now we know Oooooooooooooooo's gonna pay for it at least!  :)


Title: Re: Rail fares to rise, March 2022
Post by: stuving on December 17, 2021, 19:45:04
Quotes are from BBC News channel

Quote
"Regulated fares"
- but who sets the others under management contracts not franchises?

Quote
Usually 6 month RPI ... this time based on JULY 2021 (however, it has gone up since then!)

Govt says "look - taxpayer had put in £14bn so a balance between recouping costs and not putting people off" (paraphrasing BBC).  Noting 100k flexiseasons sold

The DfT's own news story (https://www.gov.uk/transport/rail) does not actually mention "regulated" at all:
Quote
Rail fares capped to prevent high increases for passengers

Government caps rail fare increases in 2022 and delays the rise in prices until March to allow passengers more time to buy cheaper flexible and season tickets at the existing rate.

  • government caps annual fare increase at 3.8%   
  • Book with Confidence scheme extended to 31 March 2022, supporting passengers as they return to the railway   
  • changes to rail fares will come into force in March next year, giving passengers more time to purchase cheaper flexible and season tickets at the existing rate

Next year’s rail fare rise will be 3.8%, below the current retail price inflation of 7.1%. The government will not increase fares by the retail price index (RPI) rate plus 1%, as it did in 2021.

Until the pandemic, fares were raised in January each year by a formula based on the RPI rate of the previous July, 6 months beforehand. In 2022, the increase will take place in March, giving passengers more time to purchase cheaper flexible and season tickets at the existing rate.

Presumably there will be a more formal announcement, perhaps as a minister's statement to Parliament.

Now I think that use - repeated - of "capped" can only mean no fares will rise by more than 3.8%. But as reported by the BBC and others, that isn't what they mean at all. I guess what they have put a cap on is the range of numbers they were thinking about before this one emerged - so it was an internal matter inside DfT.

So beware: this government's massed battalions of weasels have chewed up a new word, as they did "invest" which now just means "spend".


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Electric train on December 18, 2021, 07:14:08
This fare rise could be the final part to what is already setting it self up as a perfect storm -

Lower peak travel demand the industry are already looking on where it can save costs (ie reduce services and train capacity) the fare rise could lead to an even lower number of peak passengers which could add fuel to this.

The industry has often not put all unregulated fares up in line with the the regulated fares, this is likely to change.   The ToC's may want to push the start of the morning off peak to later in the morning to catch the time shifted commuters



Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: RichardB on February 10, 2022, 19:17:41
Has the date for the fares increase been set yet?  I've just been having a quick look on the web and can only find the December announcement that it would be in March.  My colleague Mike has been looking at local GWR Off-Peak Day return fares for March and April - no difference to the current ones at present.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on February 10, 2022, 20:17:32
Good question - about a fortnight ago, I saw a reference to March 1st - but that's a Tuesday, so I doubted it then. Haven't sen any other date yet though, but surely it requires fares to be released at T-12 - as that is how far in advance you can supposedly buy flexible tickets....hmmm


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Ross H on February 17, 2022, 19:00:06
I'm keen to know because I'm possibly making an outward journey on 1st March but don't want to buy the ticket before I have to! Official websites are strangely silent on the subject. The only reference I've found to 1st March is on MoneySavingExpert but I don't know whether they're just assuming that's the date (as I was before I started looking).

How does it normally work when you buy a ticket in advance, in the period approaching a fare increase? Suppose the increase is taking place on 1st March, would you expect to be able to buy a ticket on 28th February, for travel on 1st March, for the old price, or would you expect the system to charge you the new price?


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on February 17, 2022, 19:24:38
Current fares are still available up to May 3 !!

I would get & buy now if I were you as they can’t refuse you travel on any ti ket already sold & bought in good faith


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Robin Summerhill on February 17, 2022, 19:38:57
Current fares are still available up to May 3 !!

I would get & buy now if I were you as they can’t refuse you travel on any ti ket already sold & bought in good faith

Bearing in mind that you have to specify dates of travel when buying advance tickets, and most other tickets these days are valid for outbound travel on day of issue only, then you would normally have to tell the booking clerk (person behind the screen or computerised system) at least the date of outward travel.

It would then be a simple matter of charging whichever fare applied on that day. It would of course be possible with period returns to come back at the old price if you had bought the ticket before the fare increase

This not a definitive answer to the question because I haven't worked in a booking office for 56 years!  ;D


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on February 17, 2022, 20:30:24
Ross H has said outward travel on March 1


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on February 27, 2022, 20:10:37
Press Release from Railfuture:

Quote
Rail fare hikes stoking the cost of living crisis

Rail fare hikes of 3.8% kick in on Tuesday 1st March, adding to the current cost of living crisis.

“Ordinary working people are feeling the squeeze like never before, yet the government is stoking the fire of the cost of living crisis with these eye-watering fare increases.  How does this help get the country back to work?” said Bruce Williamson of the campaign group Railfuture. “Few people are getting an income increase of 3.8% this year. People are struggling to heat their homes, yet the government wants to take even more money off them for the privilege of taking the train to earn a living.“

Government uses the obsolete RPI measure of inflation instead of CPI which is usually lower.  If CPI were used, fares would rise by only 2%.

“If the government cared about the cost of living crisis, they would drop RPI and use CPI instead. They can afford to give motorists a break, by freezing fuel duty for 12 years on the trot.  Why won’t they do something similar for the hard pressed rail traveller?”

“Inflation this year is likely to hit 8%, so unless the government changes the formula, the average rail traveller will be bankrupted next year.”

“They could take this opportunity not just to freeze fares, just like they’ve done with fuel duty, but to reform our insanely complex fares structure.  Transparent, affordable fares would not only encourage a return to rail, but would give a boost to the economy and promote green environmentally-friendly travel.”


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: grahame on March 01, 2022, 08:35:05
Some numbers from this morning:

Melksham to Swindon return
Any Time - £10.80 to £11.20
"Off Peak" - £8.00 to £8.30

Melksham to Paddington via Swindon return
Any Time - £186.80 to £193.80
"Off Peak" - £78.70 to £81.70
"Super Off Peak" £59.10 to £61.30

I have added fare tables from brfares for 4 sample journeys to our member's archive for posterity

http://www.passenger.chat/bri_wat_fares_2021.pdf
http://www.passenger.chat/bri_wat_fares_2022.pdf

http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_cfd_fares_2021.pdf
http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_cfd_fares_2022.pdf

http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_pad_fares_2021.pdf
http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_pad_fares_2022.pdf

http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_swi_fares_2021.pdf
http://www.passenger.chat/mkm_swi_fares_2022.pdf


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Ross H on March 04, 2022, 20:41:35
Ross H has said outward travel on March 1

I went on 28th Feb in the end and avoided the increase.  :) Though a couple of days before that, I asked the member of staff in the ticket office in Exmouth if she knew when fares were going up and she didn't.  You can tell the Government are in charge, and winging it.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: Sixty3Closure on May 05, 2022, 17:58:58
Article in the Telegraph (behind a paywall) that fares could increase by over 10% next year unless the link between CPI (or is it RPI) and ticket prices is broken.

That could be some quite hefty price rises on season tickets. For my old commute it would be over £400 a year more which is more than any pay rise I'm likely to get this year.

Even the Telegraph seemed to admit it wasn't a good way to tempt people back to the railways or even their office.


Title: Re: Fare rises for 2022
Post by: ChrisB on May 05, 2022, 18:36:59
Conjecture based on July's likely RPI% inflation number....whether or not they use '+1'



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