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Title: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2021, 13:16:57 I may be biased, living in Templecombe, but this signal box is glorious. One of few remaining 'Modern Movement' architectural style boxes. Or, in railway language, a Southern Type 13 box.
The Templecombe box is externally well maintained by the Friends of Templecombe Station, but it remains the property of Network Rail. It's not under any current threat of removal but who knows the future... My personal take is that it should be listed for its architectural merits. (https://i.ibb.co/nnQW9px/IMG-20211009-123241.jpg) Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: GWR 158 on October 09, 2021, 13:37:54 I couldn't agree more. Railway history needs to be protected for future generations to experience.
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: PhilWakely on October 09, 2021, 14:21:13 Couldn't agree more. Definitely should be listed.
At the other end of the scale, the 'new' platform has ruined the look and appeal of the station and probably killed any prospect of re-doubling through the station and onwards towards Buchkorn Weston. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Lee on October 09, 2021, 14:36:34 I agree the signal box should be listed, but I wont forgive Friends of Templecombe Station for what they did to the waiting room on that platform.
I used to use Templecombe quite a bit as a kid on my through to Wincanton Racecourse when my dad used to take me in the 1980s, and later on my own as a young adult in the early 1990s. The original friends group made that waiting room so homely and welcoming, with books to borrow, quirky little heater, and toilets open for most of the day. It was proudly resplendent in Network SouthEast colour scheme, with a list of awards the group deservedly won during that period. Along with the signal box doubling as a ticket office, the station was such a joy to use. It remained like that right up to a few years ago, and I used to love to visit from time to time and reminisce. Then the new platform - although modular and probably movable for redoubling purposes - was built with its limited opening hours travesty of a impersonal ugly ticket office/waiting facility and platform "shelter", and the original platform was locked out of bounds, with its waiting room and its priceless reopening period memories hollowed out and replaced with horrific faux-heritage decorative items and pieces. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2021, 15:56:51 Lee, all that reopening period ephemera is still there. Some in the waiting room, some in the signal box and some in storage.
FoTS are not to blame for the lack of access. That's down to SWR/Network Rail. Visit Templecombe Station on one of FoTS coffee mornings and chat with the members. They're happy to bring out some of the ephemera. Join the group, as I did, and you can get accompanied access to the old up platform, waiting room, and signal box. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Lee on October 09, 2021, 16:46:34 Lee, all that reopening period ephemera is still there. Some in the waiting room, some in the signal box and some in storage. FoTS are not to blame for the lack of access. That's down to SWR/Network Rail. Visit Templecombe Station on one of FoTS coffee mornings and chat with the members. They're happy to bring out some of the ephemera. Join the group, as I did, and you can get accompanied access to the old up platform, waiting room, and signal box. I appreciate what you are trying to say, and all of it may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that as it was, that waiting room was a little bit of crucial living rail history, and it should have been left as it was IMHO. Many thanks for the offer, but I will stick with my memories. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2021, 16:53:53 Just had a chat with a FoTS member who was gardening as I returned to Templecombe.
Much of the old ephemera was from a personal collection, returned to family when that person passed on. Other stuff was removed at the behest of SWT/Network Rail prior to the station remodelling. It was a couple of years after that before FoTS were again granted access to the up side buildings. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: bradshaw on October 09, 2021, 17:03:23 We managed to get the station and signal box at Maiden Newton listed some years ago. My role was to write the listing submission based on the reasoning for its listing. If you go down this road, please ket me know if I can be of any help.
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: JayMac on October 09, 2021, 17:07:03 We managed to get the station and signal box at Maiden Newton listed some years ago. My role was to write the listing submission based on the reasoning for its listing. If you go down this road, please ket me know if I can be of any help. An attempt at listing Templecombe box was made in 2011. I'm looking at collecting the info from that application. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Lee on October 09, 2021, 17:38:00 Just had a chat with a FoTS member who was gardening as I returned to Templecombe. Much of the old ephemera was from a personal collection, returned to family when that person passed on. Other stuff was removed at the behest of SWT/Network Rail prior to the station remodelling. It was a couple of years after that before FoTS were again granted access to the up side buildings. Even if it is true that FoTS had no control over what happened to some of the fittings, why on earth did they transport - or accept the decision to transport - the building into faux-heritage hell? Anything would have been better than what they subsequent did with the waiting room, which effectively transports an 80s building back into the steam age, like Dr Who gone wrong ;D That's what really annoys me about it, this awful tendency for so much of the memory of the NSE era - my formative era - to be cast aside as "80s/90s tat" to be hidden or removed at every opportunity. Or was that another case of "Not us guv, blame SWR/SWT/NR" ? I'm sorry everyone, I know it sounds like I am ranting - even to my ears - but a lot of people my age's rail memories have suffered from this in the intervening years, and it really gets to me >:( >:( Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: broadgage on October 10, 2021, 03:18:42 I couldn't agree more. Railway history needs to be protected for future generations to experience. I agree, and not just the older history as may be found on a heritage line, but the somewhat more recent history such as this. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: REVUpminster on October 10, 2021, 09:45:53 Bachman Branchline used to sell an art deco model signalbox, so it will be preserved on someone's model railway.
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: bradshaw on October 10, 2021, 11:11:05 I think this might be the report on a previous listing attempt
https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=1541602&resourceID=19191 From Historic England Research Records Monument Number 1541602 This quote is the significant part of the entry: Quote As set out in the English Heritage Selection Guide (2007) for Transport Buildings to merit designation, signal boxes should either represent a relatively early phase of architectural design or technological development, or should demonstrate some significant later technological novelty and innovation, or new architectural design. One of the operators to adopt the architecture of the Modern Movement was the Southern Railway. Many of its stations and signal boxes were built in this style; Surbiton being the earliest type 13 signal box, erected in 1936. These signal boxes were adopted widely by the Southern Railway (SR), but odd examples were also used on the Great Eastern and later by the London & North Eastern Railway, and the design continued to be employed into the 1950s, albeit with power rather than mechanical frames. Post-war examples of this design survive at Streatham, South Croydon, Balham and Purley. There are currently two type-13 signal boxes on the SR that are listed: Woking in Surrey (1937, Grade II), and Horsham, West Sussex (circa 1938, Grade II). English Heritage has undertaken a Thematic List Review of Railway Structures looking at a wide variety of structures in a national context. As part of this assessment, Woking was identified the best surviving example of a type-13 box. Horsham was also considered to be a good example which had additional interest for its historic association and group value with a listed railway station. The Railway Review does not recommend any further type-13 signal boxes for listing. The signal box at Templecombe Railway Station is understood to be the most westerly example of this type of box and its architecture reflects the characteristic features of the International Modern style including the flat concrete roof, overhanging eaves, and moulded corners. However, it has crucially lost its operating room windows. Much of the architectural interest of signal boxes lies in their fenestration, and the loss of the original timber glazing detracts significantly from the interest of the box. That said the operating floor windows at both Horsham and Woking appear to have also been replaced, and it must be acknowledeged that changes such as this are reversible. During the mid-20th century the interior of type 13 boxes was described as being spacious and modern. In 1983, when Templecombe Station was re-opened to passenger traffic, the signal box was sub-divided to provide a waiting area and a ticket office. Although a new waiting room has since been installed on the platform, the booking office arrangements continue. Intactness is a very important consideration when assessing signal boxes for listing, and the changes that have taken place at Templecombe have significantly compromised the layout of the operating floor. In addition the original lever-frame has been reduced in length from 60 to 16 (including four spare) levers. Most of the station structures at Templecombe have been demolished, only the signal box, former mainline platforms and the goods shed (which is now in commercial use) remain from the pre-1967 period, reducing the signal box¿s group value and claims to special interest. In summary, Templecombe signal box is not recommended for listing. Whilst it is a striking example of a signal box in the International Modern style, it is not of sufficiently early date to be notable as a mechanical signal box, and does not represent an important phase in the development of signal boxes and signalling technology. Its internal layout has been altered and the signalling equipment has been much reduced and is not sufficiently rare or intact to qualify in its own right for designation. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Lee on October 10, 2021, 11:50:27 I think this might be the report on a previous listing attempt https://www.heritagegateway.org.uk/Gateway/Results_Single.aspx?uid=1541602&resourceID=19191 From Historic England Research Records Monument Number 1541602 This quote is the significant part of the entry: Quote As set out in the English Heritage Selection Guide (2007) for Transport Buildings to merit designation, signal boxes should either represent a relatively early phase of architectural design or technological development, or should demonstrate some significant later technological novelty and innovation, or new architectural design. One of the operators to adopt the architecture of the Modern Movement was the Southern Railway. Many of its stations and signal boxes were built in this style; Surbiton being the earliest type 13 signal box, erected in 1936. These signal boxes were adopted widely by the Southern Railway (SR), but odd examples were also used on the Great Eastern and later by the London & North Eastern Railway, and the design continued to be employed into the 1950s, albeit with power rather than mechanical frames. Post-war examples of this design survive at Streatham, South Croydon, Balham and Purley. There are currently two type-13 signal boxes on the SR that are listed: Woking in Surrey (1937, Grade II), and Horsham, West Sussex (circa 1938, Grade II). English Heritage has undertaken a Thematic List Review of Railway Structures looking at a wide variety of structures in a national context. As part of this assessment, Woking was identified the best surviving example of a type-13 box. Horsham was also considered to be a good example which had additional interest for its historic association and group value with a listed railway station. The Railway Review does not recommend any further type-13 signal boxes for listing. The signal box at Templecombe Railway Station is understood to be the most westerly example of this type of box and its architecture reflects the characteristic features of the International Modern style including the flat concrete roof, overhanging eaves, and moulded corners. However, it has crucially lost its operating room windows. Much of the architectural interest of signal boxes lies in their fenestration, and the loss of the original timber glazing detracts significantly from the interest of the box. That said the operating floor windows at both Horsham and Woking appear to have also been replaced, and it must be acknowledeged that changes such as this are reversible. During the mid-20th century the interior of type 13 boxes was described as being spacious and modern. In 1983, when Templecombe Station was re-opened to passenger traffic, the signal box was sub-divided to provide a waiting area and a ticket office. Although a new waiting room has since been installed on the platform, the booking office arrangements continue. Intactness is a very important consideration when assessing signal boxes for listing, and the changes that have taken place at Templecombe have significantly compromised the layout of the operating floor. In addition the original lever-frame has been reduced in length from 60 to 16 (including four spare) levers. Most of the station structures at Templecombe have been demolished, only the signal box, former mainline platforms and the goods shed (which is now in commercial use) remain from the pre-1967 period, reducing the signal box¿s group value and claims to special interest. In summary, Templecombe signal box is not recommended for listing. Whilst it is a striking example of a signal box in the International Modern style, it is not of sufficiently early date to be notable as a mechanical signal box, and does not represent an important phase in the development of signal boxes and signalling technology. Its internal layout has been altered and the signalling equipment has been much reduced and is not sufficiently rare or intact to qualify in its own right for designation. I would argue that they got some of this the wrong way round. The 1983 subdivision of the signal box to provide a waiting area and ticket office was a critical part of a business case for one of the very first of the 1980s "new wave" of rail reopenings, and it could therefore be convincingly said that it does indeed represent an important phase in the development of signal boxes. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: rogerpatenall on October 10, 2021, 16:34:04 We used to use Templecombe frequently in the 50s and early 60s. Opposite the bottom of the stairs to the up platform was a well stocked bookstall. That man was a hero of mine - he could read anything absolutely fluently whilst it was upside down to him on the counter. An art that I have never really mastered, not that it would have made much difference to my life if I had. And whilst I am rambling, one of my early memories is of my Dad taking me to watch the last down Devon Belle race through. Still a vivid memory, for some reason.
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 10, 2021, 17:27:21 The replaced windows are what immediately struck me looking at the photo at the top of the thread. They really do alter the look of the building. And it's not just signal boxes, modern windows are one of the most obvious changes to art deco commercial properties; original windows perhaps survive more in houses. But it's not all bad; modern windows keep buildings warmer of course and it's possible that without modern double glazing, we'd have lost more old buildings as being unfit for purpose.
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: CyclingSid on October 11, 2021, 07:45:16 On the way back from a cycling trip to London on Saturday, we discussed this style of Southern signal boxes. I presume they were all designed in the 1930's, but who was the designer? In the early days of the Southern Railway James Robb Scott was the chief architect, personally noted by me for Bishopstone station that had two pillboxes added to the roof during WWII.
I have to admit if only one of these signal boxes were preserved it would be the one at Portsmouth Harbour station. The conversation drifted to more ephemeral parts of the Southern. I have an ongoing fascination for the "mass produced" concrete components that were used on the Southern: platform backs, bridges, plate layers huts, lighting standards, etc. Not sure how you would preserve a representative collection, and where. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Clan Line on October 11, 2021, 08:42:53 (https://i.postimg.cc/jj6K7Wfd/Screenshot-2021-10-11-083954.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v1mpRZXp)
Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Lee on October 11, 2021, 09:41:09 One assumes that if the box is turned into a community facility, then the local community will take over paying for its upkeep.
That being the case, one must also assume that the Network Rail spokesman who tries to justify their position on money being spent on preserving the box being better used on improving services didn't have his 3 Shredded Wheat this morning. Title: Re: Templecombe Signal Box. Should it be listed? Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 11, 2021, 09:43:15 Where signal boxes become redundant for their original purpose, as I should imagine most now are, there's almost bound to be a new opportunity for some of them as "community" objects, just as has happened with phone boxes. Could they not be sold to community groups for a symbolic sum, as was done with phone boxes, thus saving NR/GBR/whoever the cost of maintenance (or demolition) and preserving the structures? Cafes, community centres, village halls and whatever. The trouble would be they'd have to be moved, and although I'd imagine that's possible with many of the timber structures, it's not going to be easy or cheap (and requires land to move them to).
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