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Journey by Journey => South Western services => Topic started by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 19:45:33



Title: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 19:45:33
Reports coming in about an incident involving an SWR and a GWR service in Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury.  GWR reporting disruption until "the end of the day" due to the emergency services dealing with an incident.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 19:57:22
Now saying disruption until the end of tomorrow (Monday).


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 19:59:33
From Wiltshire Today (https://wiltshiretoday.co.uk/critical-incident-salisbury-train-derails/)

Quote
A critical incident has been declared after a train derailed in Salisbury.

Emergency services including an air ambulance, police helicopter and the Coastguard were called to the scene near Fisherton Tunnel at around 7. 20pm.

Wiltshire Today understands a passenger train – with passengers on board – struck an object inside the tunnel before leaving the track and partially overturning.

The driver is trapped in the cab, with 999 crews trying to access the casualty. Their injuries are currently unknown.

It is not yet known if any passengers or other train staff have been hurt.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ellendune on October 31, 2021, 20:04:13
From Wiltshire Police on Twitter (https://twitter.com/wiltshirepolice/status/1454898637566251009?s=20)

Quote
We are currently at the scene of a train crash involving two trains between Andover and Salisbury.

We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.

Will update as soon as we have more information.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ellendune on October 31, 2021, 20:35:31
And now from GWR (https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1454908650003238918/photo/1)



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on October 31, 2021, 20:37:30
GWR just tweeted that the two trains involved were the 1708 Portsmouth Harbour - Bristol & the 1720 SWR service WAT to Honiton.

One news source I saw said that the GWR service has partially derailed with the driver trapped


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 20:42:33
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59114569)

Quote
A number of passengers have been injured in a crash between two trains near Salisbury.

The collision happened near London Road with police, the fire service, paramedics and British Transport Police at the scene.

About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.

Dorset and Wiltshire Fire and Rescue declared the crash a "major incident" and 50 firefighters are in attendance.

Other train services in the area, close to Fisherton Tunnel in the city, have been halted.

BBC reporter James Ingham said none of the passengers were believed to have been seriously injured. He added it was believed one train was on its side.

Network Rail said in a statement: "Emergency services are responding to an incident at Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury Station, involving the 1708 GWR service between Portsmouth Harbour and Bristol Temple Meads and the 1720 SWR services from London Waterloo to Honiton.

"The line is closed as they carry out their work, and we appreciate our customers' patience as we are doing all we can to help as they respond to the incident."

Story continues in link above.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on October 31, 2021, 20:50:54
From Wiltshire Police on Twitter (https://twitter.com/wiltshirepolice/status/1454898637566251009?s=20)

Quote
We are currently at the scene of a train crash involving two trains between Andover and Salisbury.

We are responding with the fire and ambulance service at the site close to Grateley.

Will update as soon as we have more information.
“Close to Grately?”  Some sort of error with initial reports I can only assume. The Twitter link no longer works anyway.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: anthony215 on October 31, 2021, 21:34:25
There are some  photos posted around.i think we are very lucky we are not talking about fatalities in this incident especially when you see the stage of one of the SWR units. 158763 going to be put of action for a while too.

I'm not going to post the photos as I don't think.its respectful


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: jamestheredengine on October 31, 2021, 21:34:48
Now saying disruption until the end of tomorrow (Monday).
And still no "Passengers between Southampton/Portsmouth and Cardiff/Bristol with tickets routed via Salisbury should travel via Reading".


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Celestial on October 31, 2021, 21:50:22
158763 going to be put of action for a while too.

I'm not going to post the photos as I don't think.its respectful


I don't think it's particularly relevant to talk about how long one of the units is going to be out of action in an incident that had the potential to be life changing for those involved (although at this moment it thankfully appears as though passenger injuries may be minor  - not yet clear on the driver who needed to be cut free, and my thoughts are with him at this time).   


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on October 31, 2021, 22:06:32
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-59114569)

Quote
A major incident has been declared after two trains collided in Salisbury, leaving several people injured.

The collision happened near London Road and involved a South Western Railway and a Great Western service.

About 12 people are thought to have been injured and one of the drivers is believed to be trapped in their cab.

The crash happened at 18:46 GMT when one train hit an object in a tunnel, and the second train then collided with it due to signalling problems.

I understand that the driver has now been cut free (was a while ago but it takes time for news to flow)

Quote
BBC reporter James Ingham said none of the passengers were believed to have been seriously injured.

A Network Rail spokesperson said: "At around 19:00 GMT this evening, the rear carriage of the 17:08 Great Western Railway service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads derailed after striking an object on its approach to Salisbury station.

"The derailment knocked out all of the signalling in the area.

"Subsequently, the 17:20 South Western Railway service from London Waterloo to Honiton then collided with the Bristol train.

"There are reports of injuries and the emergency services are on site along with railway first responders."


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: broadgage on October 31, 2021, 22:36:17
What I find shocking is not the FIRST collision, between the first train and and an "obstruction". That sort of accident can never be entirely prevented.

A second train then collided with the first one. I would expect that the signaling system  would prevent that. The signaling system would "know" the location of the first train and keep the following train a safe distance away. I appreciate that the initial collision reportedly put the signals "out of order" But signals should fail safe. If the relevant signal was out, that should still be treated as being a signal at danger.

Or was the second train moving on the other line ? That could explain the second collision if the first train was foul of the line.

It has been suggested in some reports that a landslip or similar caused the obstruction.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on October 31, 2021, 22:49:36
The RAIB are on site and I suspect the signalling system will be one of the things they will be investigating as a priority.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2021, 05:41:17
Having seen various pictures from the scene it is remarkable that there weren't more serious injuries or deaths.

The incident has rather affected my plans for today. I had planned to visit the Isle of Wight to ride the 'new'  Class 484 stock and see the station improvements.

Just debating with myself whether Templecombe - Exeter - Reading - Basingstoke - Portsmouth is a reasonable route as allowed by SWR's ticket easements today. There's no news yet on rail replacement bus services in the Salisbury area. Yeovil - Dorchester - Southampton - Portsmouth already has rail replacement for engineering works in the Brockenhurst area. Also my last experience of a rail replacement bus was Finn being denied travel.

EDIT. SWR Twitter just confirmed I can travel via Exeter and Reading. Long way round but avoids buses.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 01, 2021, 06:24:59
The RAIB are on site and I suspect the signalling system will be one of the things they will be investigating as a priority.

Not just the signalling, the GWR train driver eye witness evidence will be key also the train black box and Forward Facing CCTV (if fitted), the physical condition of the track, tunnel etc.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 07:16:22
Like Broadgage, I am really concerned at the second collision ... being careful not to speculate too far.

Good to see everyone is out and alive - hope the injuries to the driver (in spite of him (?) being trapped) are not life changing - I am keeping an ear open for a medical update and will post when I see one.

The Waterloo to [Honiton/Exeter] hourly service does - of course follow the Portsmouth to Cardiff service through, as per yesterday evening, making an excellent connection from Southampton to the west, and utterly failing to connect for Waterloo and Clapham Junction to Trowbridge / Bath / Keynsham / Bristol passengers.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 01, 2021, 08:25:47
Like Broadgage, I am really concerned at the second collision ... being careful not to speculate too far.

Good to see everyone is out and alive - hope the injuries to the driver (in spite of him (?) being trapped) are not life changing - I am keeping an ear open for a medical update and will post when I see one.


It does sound as though injuries were not serious, which is wonderful news if accurate. I assume most, if not all, passengers would have been seated, which would have helped. Regarding the driver, one can be trapped following an accident without being hurt, and I hope this was the case here.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 01, 2021, 08:35:56
The two services on Real Time Trains. The second train not detected at Tunnel Junction. Both running late, the SWR service making up time, and both arrived at the junction with not many minutes between them. Thoughts with everyone affected.

Mark

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G57571/2021-10-31/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L52648/2021-10-31/detailed


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 09:21:09
Real Time Trains data only there for a week "after".  Thanks for the links, Mark - here are the pertinent bits:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/sal_20211031_t1t.jpg)


(http://www.wellho.net/pix/sal_20211031_t2t.jpg)


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bobm on November 01, 2021, 09:25:54
I assume most, if not all, passengers would have been seated, which would have helped.

I have seem some reports that there were people standing as they prepared to get off at Salisbury.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 09:49:45
Looks like 1F27 passed though by the skin of its teeth!

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/sal_20211031_t3t.jpg)

Other notes (from BBC Wiltshire) ... 3 remain in hospital. Driver serious but comfortable. "About 100 people on the train(s)". Can't trust everything you hear - comment from Claire Mann referred to as "Managing director of Great Western Railway" ...


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2021, 10:05:37
Guard on my train from Templecombe to Exeter has told me that no units have been allowed out of Salisbury depot this morning. That has meant only a shuttle service can be run between Gillingham and Exeter using units that outstation overnight at Yeovil and Exeter.

One of those units is parked up at Yeovil Junction, low on fuel, having not been able to make it back to Salisbury last night. It may have to be fuelled by road tanker if it can't be taken back to Salisbury in the next day or two.

Question. Can SWR fuel their 159s at Exeter if need be?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 10:36:01
From overnight:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/sal_20211031_gwr.jpg)


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 01, 2021, 11:07:07
There are now enough daylight pictures (e.g. on the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800)) to confirm some of what was "known" but confusing last night.

The eastbound GWR train (1F27 ) passed Salisbury Junction first (timed 18:41 - 5 minutes early). This is a sharp right turn, limited to 20 mph. For reasons still unclear, this train was held at Dean (some distance before the station) for over two hours before departing 151 late and being cancelled at Fratton "Reason TY [Mishap-Train Operating Company cause] ".

The westbound GWR train, subject to the same 20 mph speed limit round the sharp left turn, was timed at Salisbury Junction at 18:42, 19 late. It stopped with the last vehicle outside the tunnel, and still on the points. Its rear end was thus well to the left of the Down Main Line that 1L53 was arriving on. This last vehicle was reported to have derailed, but I think that might be a mistake. It was struck soon after so ended up derailed anyway, and it does seem unlikely that an obstruction would derail only the last vehicle - and it never entered the tunnel. We'll have to wait and see on that one.

The SWR train (1L53) had earlier been cancelled before departing "Reason JP [Failure to maintain vegetation within network boundaries in accordance with prevailing Network Rail standards]". It was reinstated and was last timed departing Andover at 18:30, 6 late. It should have passed Salisbury Tunnel Junction at 18:39, so with the delay would be expected at 18:45 (any time in RTT is interpolated). Its straighter run over the points allows a 50 mph speed limit, but it should have been slowed, delayed, and then stopped by the signals. The biggest question at the moment is why that did not happen.

We know 1L53 bit not stop, and struck the rear vehicle of 1F30 a glancing blow. It is not possible to tell from the resting positions where that stopped carriage was when struck, but in its current position the two trains would not have passed to strike corner to side. The impact would have been corner to corner, and much more violent as a result. Either way, the leading end of that GWR vehicle was did not pass the tunnel portal; it's not clear from the picture whether it lodged against it and could go no further. 1L53 was thrown off its track, and half overturned, and ran into the tunnel in that canted position along the Up Main and (at least in places) became wedged between 1F30 and the tunnel wall.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/5A8B/production/_121297132_traincrash2.jpg)

Two things went well in the accident, accounting the the relatively light injuries, and to only a small number of passengers and staff. One was that the body shells largely kept their shape and bounced off each other. The other was that no fire broke out. It could have been very much worse.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bradshaw on November 01, 2021, 13:27:10
If you lighten the image then there seems to be something between the two GWR carriages just at the tunnel portal.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 01, 2021, 13:27:59
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 01, 2021, 13:40:33
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.

Now it is being reported that the SWR driver's injuries are more serious, and sadly will have long-term consequences.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 01, 2021, 13:48:58
I think in Stuving’s excellent summary the eastbound GWR (1F27) would have been stopped by an area emergency call.  I’m therefore assuming that if they were still in Salisbury’s control area then it would not necessarily be a priority to get them going again. 

But what happens to the signallers who are on shift in such circumstances, do they have to get relieved?

Paul


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 01, 2021, 13:49:56
If you lighten the image then there seems to be something between the two GWR carriages just at the tunnel portal.

Looks like the impact zone to me, which would place both trains further back from the tunnel mouth at the point of collision.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 01, 2021, 14:07:36
BBC lunchtime news reports 5 people still in hospital, all described as stable.

Now it is being reported that the SWR driver's injuries are more serious, and sadly will have long-term consequences.

Alas so, using that awful term "life changing".


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 01, 2021, 14:08:52
But what happens to the signallers who are on shift in such circumstances, do they have to get relieved?

As soon as practically possible, yes.  Especially if there’s any reason to believe their actions may have caused or contributed to an incident.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 01, 2021, 14:24:45
I think in Stuving’s excellent summary the eastbound GWR (1F27) would have been stopped by an area emergency call.  I’m therefore assuming that if they were still in Salisbury’s control area then it would not necessarily be a priority to get them going again. 

Paul

Yes, that is all in the Salisbury signalling area. That explanation would explain the initial stop, and I wonder if there was a concern even that early to get information from the driver about anything on the track, or any other source of evidence such the FFTV.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 01, 2021, 14:27:29
Apparently the Telegraph (paywalled) are now reporting that there was only one incident:
Quote
Initial reports suggested the first train had hit an object, causing it to derail, and that the second train ploughed into the displaced, stranded service.

But in an update on Monday afternoon, British Transport Police (BTP) confirmed this was not the case, and that both trains were travelling in the same direction when one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel.

BTP on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/BTP/status/1455173517847171074?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Quote
There is no evidence to suggest the train struck an object or that there was any significant delay between the collision and the derailment.

Also supported by a recent BTP statement:
https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/derailment-at-fisherton-tunnel-salisbury---statement/


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 01, 2021, 14:43:17
Eyewitness account from a passenger travelling from Brighton to Southampton and then onto the GWR service where he was to alight at Salisbury - and in the event ended up being walked through the tunnel and along the tracks into Salisbury Station which is quite a trek in itself.

It may be significant that he doesn't mention two events.

https://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/19685161.salisbury-train-crash-passengers-experience/


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Andy on November 01, 2021, 15:15:37
Thoughts with all rail staff, emergency staff and passengers who were victims of or witness to the accident, especially the driver, whose injuries seem to be more serious than first reported. Thank goodness no lives were lost.



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: broadgage on November 01, 2021, 15:20:24
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.
In that case, I retract my earlier remarks that imply that the signalling system should have prevented the SECOND collision.

If two trains are proceeding in the SAME direction, on the same line, then even if the first train suffers an accident, the second train should be held a safe distance away by the signalling system.

If however two trains are proceeding in OPPOSITE directions, and the first one is derailed, then it can be hard to prevent a second accident. If the first train, or any substantial parts thereof is foul of the OTHER line, then no automatic system can reliably prevent the second train colliding with the the first one.

Under such circumstances, reliance must be placed on human actions such as;
Press the emergency button on the cab radio, so doing sends a "stop danger" message to other trains in the area.
Apply track circuit operating clips to other line, this puts signals back to danger.
A member of train crew to walk back along the track with a red flag or lamp, and apply detonators.
Make an emergency phone call, preferably from a signal post telephone. Cellphone as a second choice.

Such actions might not be in time to avoid a second accident.

IMPORTANT EDIT. Both trains were travelling in the sane direction. See following post for details.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2021, 15:32:00
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.

The two trains were both travelling toward Salisbury and collided at Salisbury Tunnel Junction. The GWR service was travelling from Portsmouth to Cardiff and the SWR service from Waterloo to Honiton.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 01, 2021, 16:09:14
If I have understood correctly, the two trains involved were travelling in opposite directions.
In that case, I retract my earlier remarks that imply that the signalling system should have prevented the SECOND collision.
[…]
There are now more recent reports this afternoon, eg from BTP that I quoted, that there was no second event at all…

Paul


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on November 01, 2021, 16:43:15
One conclusion from the published pictures is that both trains were moving when they came together and collided. Note that the trailing cab of the GWR train shows no sign of being hit by the leading cab of the SWR train.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 01, 2021, 16:50:21
That BTP press release of 13:40 today (https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/news/england/derailment-at-fisherton-tunnel-salisbury---statement/) starts off with:
Quote
British Transport Police detectives have begun an investigation into a train collision in Salisbury, Wiltshire last night (31 October). 

At around 6.45pm, a Great Western Railway service from Southampton to Cardiff collided with a South Western Railway service from London to Honiton as they both entered the Fisherton Tunnel in Salisbury.

Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel. The front few carriages remained upright while the back tipped on their side...

That would fit in with the idea that both trains were moving, though that in itself raises problems over the recorded timings. But I'm still not taking it as a definitive statement, given some bits that are are obviously wrong.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 01, 2021, 17:43:08
There are informed suggestions that the GWR train split in the tunnel - so the picture showing two trains from the front roughly side by side is of the second of two 2-car GWR 158s. When that happened isn't clear.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 01, 2021, 17:54:35
‘Travelling in the same direction’ simply means they were going the same way (towards Salisbury station), not that they were actually both moving.

We’ll have to await the initial RAIB report to know for sure. I suspect also that the BTP will be ‘asked’ to shut up about what they think happened & await the report too. They were wrong with an initial report about the derailment prior to the crash….


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 18:14:28
From GWR, SWR and Network Rail, by email, headed "Incident at Fisherton Tunnel"

Quote
Dear Graham
 
You will be aware that yesterday evening (Sunday 31 October) there was an incident at Fisherton Tunnel, near Salisbury. While we’re thankful the majority of customers and colleagues have now been able to go home safely, unfortunately it has become clear that a driver sustained a more serious injury and continues to be treated in hospital. We know everyone in the railway family is wishing him a full and swift recovery.
 
This was an upsetting experience for our customers. Their patience and understanding was appreciated by everyone on site and our thoughts remain with them.
 
The British Transport Police have been clear their investigations are in the very early stages, and it is likely the trains involved will need to remain on site for some time. The line will stay closed for at least a few days.
 
Currently, South Western Railway is unable to run to the West of Salisbury and there is a limited bus replacement service in operation. Our advice to those customers is to avoid all but essential travel on those routes.
 
Great Western Railway is running a bus service between Salisbury and Romsey, with trains operating shuttle services between Cardiff, Bristol and Salisbury, and Romsey to Portsmouth on either side of the line closure.
 
We will continue to update you and we are grateful for the support already shown by stakeholders.  We would also like to say thank you to our customers, colleagues and the emergency services for their support and dedication throughout this incident.
 
Best wishes
 
Mark Hopwood (Managing Director, Great Western Railway)
Claire Mann (Managing Director, South Western Railway)
Mark Killick (Wessex Route Director, Network Rail)


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 18:21:26
Thoughts with all rail staff, emergency staff and passengers who were victims of or witness to the accident, especially the driver, whose injuries seem to be more serious than first reported. Thank goodness no lives were lost.

They have been stated as "life changing" but just stated as "life threatening" in a BBC report I have just heard. Let us just hope that's a slip of the tongue; a difficult day to get wording accurate in a sea of developing and amending news.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: DaveHarries on November 01, 2021, 18:37:31
POST EDIT, 02-Nov-2021: In view of the RAIB's information today that they are considering wheelslide as to why the SWR train collided with the GWR train I have removed what remained of the post I had put here.

Dave


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: PhilWakely on November 01, 2021, 18:43:28
My thoughts on this are as follows:

<snip>

Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 01, 2021, 18:51:29
There are informed suggestions that the GWR train split in the tunnel - so the picture showing two trains from the front roughly side by side is of the second of two 2-car GWR 158s. When that happened isn't clear.

Let’s say this is correct, and the front portion continued past the signal outside the tunnel. Would that then release the previous signal, allowing 1L53 past the junction signal at amber? Just one hypothetical based in what’s been reported here so far. Yes, it raises other questions of course, but possible. There are zero photos of the front unit of 1L30, which raises my suspicions that more has still to be discovered. A lot more possibly


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: DaveHarries on November 01, 2021, 19:08:26
My thoughts on this are as follows:

<snip>

Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.
Indeed but I resisted the idea of expanding further and so haven't said precisely what I am thinking. A colleague of mine at work is a former NR employee though and he and I were talking it over earlier today.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: PhilWakely on November 01, 2021, 19:13:45
My thoughts on this are as follows:

<snip>

Can we please refrain from speculating! Let the RAIB investigate and publish their conclusions in due course.
Indeed but I resisted the idea of expanding further and so haven't said precisely what I am thinking. A colleague of mine at work is a former NR employee though and he and I were talking it over earlier today.

You said enough - and indeed stated that ' I won't post my conclusions here (although some may guess them)'

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: broadgage on November 01, 2021, 19:29:40
In my view, speculation is fine provided that it is firstly reasonably well informed, and secondly is based on previously known facts about infrastructure, rules and procedures, and rolling stock, and/or based on reliable reports already made public by reputable media, such as published photographs of the aftermath, or published statements and press releases.

Speculation blaming an individual is in poor taste and might in extreme cases even be illegal.

But more general speculation is arguably at least partly what forums are for. The post by  DaveHarries is in my view informed speculation, incorporating factual data about infrastructure in the area, and is in my view both interesting and informative.

EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 01, 2021, 19:34:13
It may be worth further discussion….I’m also happy with discussion on infrastructure while not discussing persons and/or staff (so no personal stuff either persons or positions with the rail industry) which both my previous post & Dave’s was


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 01, 2021, 19:34:55
There will be no public speculation from me.  I await the RAIB’s findings with interest.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 19:38:43
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.

It is a very difficult call indeed for me, for the reasons you have stated.   I have stated in my "snip" comment that I am seeking the views of the wider moderator team. Its removal is precautionary at present; it can easily enough be put back, if appropriate, but if I left out in place while we decide, those extreme cases of legality you refer to could cause permanent damage.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: DaveHarries on November 01, 2021, 20:04:39
I await the RAIB’s findings with interest.
As will I. My earlier post is hidden but I will keep my conclusions to myself. Apologies if I said too much: I will, of course, read the RAIB report also with interest and will be happy if I am proved wrong on what I am thinking.

Dave


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 01, 2021, 20:08:24
Thankyou Dave.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 01, 2021, 20:09:05
In my view, speculation is fine provided that it is firstly reasonably well informed, and secondly is based on previously known facts about infrastructure, rules and procedures, and rolling stock, and/or based on reliable reports already made public by reputable media, such as published photographs of the aftermath, or published statements and press releases.

Speculation blaming an individual is in poor taste and might in extreme cases even be illegal.

But more general speculation is arguably at least partly what forums are for. The post by  DaveHarries is in my view informed speculation, incorporating factual data about infrastructure in the area, and is in my view both interesting and informative.

EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.

I fully agree with your post.

The likes of the RAIB carry out their own thorough investigations, highly professional people. Not the kind who give up, retire to the pub trawling through public forums to copy and paste posts to compile a report.
Point the finger of blame at someone or naming individuals crosses the line but speculation based on some knowledge is in my opinion, perfectly acceptable, a lot of us have discussed and speculated all day in messrooms today.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2021, 20:17:13
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: DaveHarries on November 01, 2021, 20:40:02
Thankyou Dave.
No worries although I remain hopeful that the hiding of my post is only temporary. If I had gone the whole hog and given my conclusions in the post (which I won't do on this forum or anywhere else public) then I would fully understand the hiding and / or removal of the post permanently. I realise that it is not my say-so though.

Dave


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 01, 2021, 20:47:58
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error.

True, as with any incident there’s always going to be the possibility that human error plays a part to  a varying degree, but where human error occurs a safety system like TPWS or ATP should prevent incidents of this nature which is why this one has caused a good deal of debate.
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2021, 21:02:27
The problem with speculating publicly is that there are plausible explanations that point to human error.

Indeed, and we live in a society which very rarely says "it was an accident - just one of those things that happens from time to time".  We ask which individuals, and which systems, could have done things or been different and we then ask "could they have know better" or "should the systems have been better". And as such, we tend to point to human error or misjudgement; doing so without full information tends, perhaps, to create something of a kangaroo court.

Looking back even at old reports I can turn the pages of virtually any of them and read "x" should have done "y". Once the verdict is in, I can quote that. Prior to than verdict / analysis, I really shouldn't even draw a parallel and indeed I'm going to stress here that the reports in this photo are merely the more southern ones from a pile I have.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/rareps.jpg)

I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2021, 21:19:45
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.

One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 01, 2021, 21:48:43
I think we can all appreciate that no one sets out to deliberately cause an incident.

Indeed - but there are some accidents which, upon proper investigation, have turned out to have at least partial cause based on wilfully not following rules which are laid down for safety reasons.

One which immediately springs to mind is the one bottom right in the picture. Very much wilful rule breaking in that incident.

I think wilful rule breaking is extremely rare these days compared to back in the 70’s. Back then the work was tough but it was a job for life, you could get away with incidents.  Today, there’s been a reversal. Actual driving is far easier but it’s now significantly easier to lose your job. For a driver, I’d say it’s no longer a job for life. Wilful rule breaking today will get you caught, you’ve got your CCTV cameras, OTDR etc.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyN on November 01, 2021, 22:03:12
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: MVR S&T on November 01, 2021, 22:48:20
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.

looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 02, 2021, 06:43:43
EDIT TO ADD that the post to which I refer is now hidden from public view. In my view it should be re-instated, but ultimately the view of the moderating team must be respected in such matters.

It is a very difficult call indeed for me, for the reasons you have stated.   I have stated in my "snip" comment that I am seeking the views of the wider moderator team. Its removal is precautionary at present; it can easily enough be put back, if appropriate, but if I left out in place while we decide, those extreme cases of legality you refer to could cause permanent damage.

Lots of thought given to this.  I have outlined my concern about publishing speculation on the forum while we await (and it is frustrating!) the facts and findings and it's been discussed amongst the moderator team. Not only are we looking at legal issues, but also at hurt potentially caused to those involved and the possibility of rumours and shares of what turns out to be wrong ... indeed we have witnessed, in the last 24 hours, initial reports of the incident starting with a derailment caused by an obstruction being stated "no such evidence" by the BTP.

All of our members who have posted a few times have access to our "Frequent Posters" board.  It allows established members somewhat more freedom, and we require that members with access to that board do not share its material any wider.  The issues that caused us to snip the public post above would be mitigated were such a post to be made out of the public (guest) view, and mitigated further by "Frequent Poster" guidance.  That is far from saying "anything goes" - it does not - but I would remind members of the availability of the member's board and invite appropriate (re)posts of some material there.  I hope this provides you with a way forward.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: brooklea on November 02, 2021, 07:11:36
Is Anyone able to explain why SWR trains are unable to get on and off the depot at Salisbury?

I don't know the area very well but looking at Google satellite view and open train times its not obvious its a long way from the tunnel to the station area.

looks like all the area controlled by Salisbury panel signalbox is out of use, pending investigation being complete?

I can’t see that being the case, as trains from Cardiff to Salisbury and vv were running all day Monday, and Salisbury panel would have to be controlling those train movements between Beechgrove (just outside Warminster) and Salisbury.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Alan Pettitt on November 02, 2021, 07:40:42
Trains running today Exeter to Salisbury.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 02, 2021, 13:57:06
BBC South Today at lunchtime was quite categorical - RAIB are investigating why the SWR train passed a red signal, and looking at the condition of the rails.

The report did try to distinguish between BTP, controlling the site, and RIAIB doing the investigation work. I have an idea that it suits RAIB fine to work behind the police, and in particular they are happy never to meet a journalist. They accept that the police will want to know if anything points towards a criminal investigation, and intervene if they are concerned about conserving evidence according to the rules.

More upbeatly, the SWR driver is now reported as less badly injured than was feared.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bradshaw on November 02, 2021, 16:25:34
RAIB announced preliminary result
Seen here on Twitter
https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1455568926469808131?s=21
Website source
https://dft-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/raib-statement-salisbury-rail-accident
Edited to give DfT website source


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 02, 2021, 16:33:08
In thread post as an alternative to earlier attachment.

RAIB Statement: Salisbury rail accident
2nd November 2021

Quote
The following statement was given this afternoon by Andrew Hall, Deputy Chief Inspector, Rail Accident Investigation Branch.

"A team of RAIB inspectors arrived on site on Sunday evening and were joined yesterday by additional inspectors and our support team. We are working alongside partner organisations including the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) and BTP. Our investigation is progressing well.

"Yesterday our focus was on evidence retrieval, we have been working with Police scene officers to examine the train. We have also undertaken a close examination of the track and signalling in the area and started to talk to those involved. Analysis of downloads from the trains’ data recorders, electronic data from the signalling system and CCTV imagery is ongoing.

"From the initial evidence we have collected, we know that that the passage of the Great Western train travelling from Eastleigh across Salisbury Tunnel Junction was being protected by a red signal. At this junction, trains coming from Eastleigh merge with those from Basingstoke, so the South Western service coming from Basingstoke was required to stop at that signal.

"Unfortunately, it did not stop and struck the side of the Great Western train at an angle such that both trains derailed and ran alongside each other into the tunnel just beyond the junction.

"Initial evidence indicates that the South Western train driver applied the brakes as it approached the junction and the red signal, but the train was unable to stop before passing the signal.

"This evidence suggests that the most likely cause of this was wheelslide, almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the wheels and the track. We are continuing to pursue this as a line of investigation amongst others.

"In consultation with other parties, we continue to work with the railway recovery engineers to ensure that the site is handed back in the shortest time possible. We intend to begin releasing parts of the site back to Network Rail later today.

"Later this week we’ll be releasing the initial findings of the investigation, these will be publicly available on our website."


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 02, 2021, 17:23:27
Leaves on the line then?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: hoover50 on November 02, 2021, 17:29:12
Leaves on the line then?

Or perhaps an insufficient number of RHTT workings over that stretch of line in the days leading up to the collision?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 02, 2021, 17:34:14
As I suspected. Unfortunately this highlights an issue with the TPWS system.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 02, 2021, 17:41:44
Yes, looks like the root cause is wheel slide then.  Probably what most of us within the industry suspected.

Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 02, 2021, 17:44:34
Really got to feel for the driver. Must have been terrifying for him.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 02, 2021, 17:49:13
Yes, looks like the root cause is wheel slide then.  Probably what most of us within the industry suspected.

Further investigations will no doubt check whether the railhead treatment plan for the location was appropriate and followed properly, and that the driver was driving the train up to the point of impact as per SWR instructions (and whether those instructions are appropriate).

I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 02, 2021, 18:46:05
From the photos/pics I can find, the signal protecting the junction is well back before the tunnel & seems to be the other side of the A30(?) overbridge. A hecknof a long way to slide? Am I right? I understand that the speed limit from the BSK direction is 50mph, and the damage I estimate must have been going almost as quickly on impact to carry the train that far into the tunnel


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 02, 2021, 19:00:14
Falling gradient too, I believe.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 02, 2021, 19:03:19
I wouldn’t describe that as a heck of a long slide at all, and I certainly wouldn’t want to make even the vaguest of guesses as to what speed the impact was based on a couple of photos!


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 02, 2021, 19:44:21
I wouldn’t describe that as a heck of a long slide at all, and I certainly wouldn’t want to make even the vaguest of guesses as to what speed the impact was based on a couple of photos!

I managed just under 2 miles several years ago with all wheels locked. Luckily plain track with no restrictive aspects, applied the brakes at about 60mph, a mile or so later, I hit the platform ramp doing 55mph.

What distance from a signal protecting a junction to the junction is safe, that would prevent incidents like this?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: DaveHarries on November 02, 2021, 20:15:27
From the photos/pics I can find, the signal protecting the junction is well back before the tunnel & seems to be the other side of the A30(?) overbridge. [...] Am I right?
You are indeed. A look at the street-level view from the A30 overbridge on Google Earth shows the protecting signal - SY31 - in one direction while rotating the image 180 degrees allows a small view of the location where the derailment and collision occurred.

Dave


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 02, 2021, 21:35:36
Thinking of Google Streetview, the condition of the cutting sides over the last ten years ago contrasts sharply with their appearance in, ok, 1970, which I know is a different era, but they were clear of scrub and trees (photo from Flickr). The allotments to the right are still there, but even they are now losing out as they too are shaded by the full grown trees at the top of the cutting.

The google streetview is from June 2015 and provides the human interest of a couple of people in orange hi-viz gazing at the tunnel approach.

Given the two converging lines, junction and tunnel, there's something to be said for returning the cutting sides to grass. (And there's a lot to be said for properly resourcing the Cardiff - Portsmouth, the Waterloo - Exeter and the Waterloo Bristol traffic flows so that they're not miserably capacity-constrained for decades on end and can contribute properly to underwriting the necessary work to the infrastructure. As Graham's said, simply ensuring useable connections between Waterloo-Salisbury and Salisbury-Bristol might quickly find passenger numbers rising to 240,000 a year. The reason it's not done is presumably that it would overwhelm GWRs provision between Salisbury and Bristol...)

https://goo.gl/maps/25yDmdeDFB5fcz8s5

https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/10873405094

Mark

Edit: replaced first link with shortened version - Red Squirrel


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: PhilWakely on November 02, 2021, 21:47:58
Leaves on the line then?

Or perhaps an insufficient number of RHTT workings over that stretch of line in the days leading up to the collision?

The scheduled RHTT run for earlier in the day on Sunday (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04511/2021-10-31/detailed) was cancelled 'at the request of the train operator' and doesn't appear to have run in the days beforehand either. It would have passed through Tunnel Junction four times.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 02, 2021, 21:55:31

I managed just under 2 miles several years ago with all wheels locked. Luckily plain track with no restrictive aspects, applied the brakes at about 60mph, a mile or so later, I hit the platform ramp doing 55mph.


Ouch!

A member of the in-law contingent managed most of a mile at the controls of a Blackpool tram some years back, including the on-road bit by the Metropole hotel, coming to rest by the Tower. All he could do was sound the horn. He didn't hit anything or anybody. It was ice, not leaves, but shows the effect of lack of adhesion. The big question was why it had never happened before in the previous century, given that the conditions on the day were far from unheard of.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 02, 2021, 22:06:09
Thinking of Google Streetview, the condition of the cutting sides over the last ten years ago contrasts sharply with their appearance in, ok, 1970, which I know is a different era, but they were clear of scrub and trees (photo from Flickr). The allotments to the right are still there, but even they are now losing out as they too are shaded by the full grown trees at the top of the cutting.

The google streetview is from June 2015 and provides the human interest of a couple of people in orange hi-viz gazing at the tunnel approach.



Mark

Blimey. I bet m'learned friends will already be mobilising given the way that vegetation has been allowed to proliferate with consequent leaf fall on the lines - assuming it's Network Rail land of course.

Similar scenes of hugely overgrown land near the railway all over the country of course. I wonder if this will catalyse NR to do something about it?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 03, 2021, 06:48:07
The scheduled RHTT run for earlier in the day on Sunday (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C04511/2021-10-31/detailed) was cancelled 'at the request of the train operator' and doesn't appear to have run in the days beforehand either. It would have passed through Tunnel Junction four times.

For posterity, here are extracts from that URL

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/rhtt2_20211031.jpg)(http://www.wellho.net/pix/rhtt1_20211031.jpg)


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 03, 2021, 07:28:32
Any idea why the train operator would ask for it to be cancelled?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: a-driver on November 03, 2021, 08:05:55
Any idea why the train operator would ask for it to be cancelled?

No driver, no operators, loco failure, set failure, redeployed elsewhere…..


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: lympstone_commuter on November 03, 2021, 08:55:07
This cab-view video shows the state of the vegetation in the cutting west of the tunnel in 2015.

In this video, signal SY31 is passed at around 38:33 (having become visible at around 38:21), and the junction is passed at around 38:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc)



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: lympstone_commuter on November 03, 2021, 09:12:37
This cab-view video shows the state of the vegetation in the cutting west of the tunnel in 2015.

In this video, signal SY31 is passed at around 38:33 (having become visible at around 38:21), and the junction is passed at around 38:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLV_D2RHeMc)



apologies - typo -  I meant *east* of the tunnel, not west.

Also very best wishes to the driver https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59143021 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59143021)




Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 03, 2021, 11:00:27
Driver is 75…..is s/he the oldest on the railway?

Various media also reporting a broken ankle


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2021, 11:04:17
There’s an updated RAIB “news story” this morning that explains current understanding:

Quote
RAIB’s preliminary examination has found that the movement of train 1F30 across the junction was being protected from trains approaching on the Down Main line by signal SY31, which was at danger (displaying a red aspect). Train 1L53 passed this signal, while it was at danger, by around 220 metres, immediately prior to the collision occurring.

Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 03, 2021, 11:24:21
No doubt the full report will focus intently on why the RHTT didn't run as scheduled. There may be some difficult questions for Network Rail to answer.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 03, 2021, 13:03:14
The RIAB statement has this to say about the approach by 1L53 from further back:

Quote
Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.

The caution signal, SY29, is passed on that cab video at 37:55, followed by the 50 mph sign just by Laverstock North Junction at 38:08. I presume slowing for the speed limit reduction (from 90 mph) would need to start well before SY29, and once its aspect was seen the speed limit made no difference.

I still can't quite get the timings to work and place the two trains on the junction at once. It's only a couple of minutes, so it may be down to the nature of the timings recorded, or indeed to my sums. The distance from the call at Andover to Salisbury Tunnel Junction is 16m 13ch, and at a steady 90 mph with no call would take 10.9s. Add acceleration time and it's barely possible to get there in 12s (with rounding of times) and the path allowed 15s. Recorded timings at Andover and the junction are 18:30 and (for 1F30) 18:42, so by my reckoning there can't have been much deceleration at all.

Thus I was not surprised by the RAIB's comment about slide starting from the initial service braking application. As to why ... well, that stretch of track is not overhung by big trees like the junction itself. So I shall be interested to see not just the actual timings, but the full explanation of the lack of adhesion. If there is one, of course; previous investigations have often failed to come up with clear evidence from the railhead itself to fully explain sliding.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Clan Line on November 03, 2021, 13:23:23
Driver is 75…..is s/he the oldest on the railway?


I went to school with someone with the same name as the driver: not a particularly common surname, right age, right area.................I wonder ??


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: broadgage on November 03, 2021, 13:29:17
Whilst leaves on the rail are the most probable reason for the reported wheel slide, I suppose that oil or grease on the rails is an outside possibility. That could result from a defect on another train leaking oil. Rare, but just about possible.

ISTR a buffer stop collision that occurred some years ago despite the driver braking correctly. Oil or grease contamination was considered as a possible cause.



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2021, 14:31:10
I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse.
I think your question is overtaken by the latest RAIB explanation, the driver was already emergency braking, so AIUI in that case TPWS just duplicates the demand, but there’s no additional effect?

Paul


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 03, 2021, 14:34:47
On my train from Salisbury to Templecombe earlier today it was noticeable how much more cautiously we approached each station stop. I presume drivers have been asked to drive even more defensively than they usually do.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 03, 2021, 15:30:25
I hope they look at the part TPWS played in the incident. Once the train passes the red the driver loses all control and is effectively a passenger. I’d be interested to know if the emergency brake application made the slide worse.
I think your question is overtaken by the latest RAIB explanation, the driver was already emergency braking, so AIUI in that case TPWS just duplicates the demand, but there’s no additional effect?

Paul

It would seem that the combination of Mk1 human eyeball and Mk1 human brain beat the computers to it.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 03, 2021, 15:35:53
Do these SWR train sets have sand shots to assist in emergency braking?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 04, 2021, 00:44:41
From gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction) by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch on 3rd November 2021.

Quote
Collision between passenger trains at Salisbury Tunnel Junction

Investigation into a collision between passenger trains at Salisbury Tunnel Junction, Wiltshire, 31 October 2021

At around 18:45 hrs on 31 October 2021, train reporting number 1L53, the 17:20 hrs South Western Railway passenger service from London Waterloo to Honiton, collided with the side of train 1F30, the 17:08 hrs Great Western Railway passenger service from Portsmouth Harbour to Bristol Temple Meads. The collision took place at Salisbury Tunnel Junction, which is on the immediate approach to Fisherton Tunnel, near Salisbury in Wiltshire.

This junction allows the Up and Down Dean lines which lead to and from Eastleigh to merge with the Up and Down Main lines which lead to and from Basingstoke. At the time of the accident train 1F30 was using the junction to join the Down Main line from the Down Dean line, while train 1L53 was approaching the junction on the Down Main line from the direction of Basingstoke.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/fishdiag_20211103.jpg)

The impact of the collision caused the front two coaches of train 1L53 and the rear two coaches of train 1F30 to derail. Both trains continued some distance into Fisherton tunnel following the collision, before they came to a stop. Thirteen passengers and one member of railway staff required treatment in hospital as a result of the accident, which also caused significant damage to the trains and railway infrastructure involved.

RAIB’s preliminary examination has found that the movement of train 1F30 across the junction was being protected from trains approaching on the Down Main line by signal SY31, which was at danger (displaying a red aspect). Train 1L53 passed this signal, while it was at danger, by around 200 metres, immediately prior to the collision occurring.

Preliminary analysis of data downloaded from the On Train Data Recorder (OTDR) fitted to train 1L53 shows that the driver initially applied service braking to slow the train on approach to the caution signal before signal SY31. Around 12 seconds after service braking started, the driver made an emergency brake demand. As the train approached signal SY31, and with the emergency brake still being demanded by the driver, a second emergency brake demand was made by the train protection and warning system (TPWS). These emergency brake demands did not prevent the train from reaching the junction, where the collision occurred. OTDR analysis indicates that wheel slide was present both when the driver applied service braking and after emergency braking was demanded. This was almost certainly a result of low adhesion between the train’s wheels and the rails.

Our investigation will seek to identify the sequence of events which led to the accident. It will also consider:
* the level of wheel/rail adhesion present on the approach to Salisbury Tunnel junction
* the status and performance of the braking, wheel slide protection and sanding systems on train 1L53
* the behaviour of both trains during and following the collision
* South Western Railway’s policies relating to low wheel/rail adhesion
* Network Rail’s policies relating to low wheel/rail adhesion and how it managed the risk of low adhesion in this area
* the processes used to assess and control the risk of overrun at signal SY31
* any relevant underlying factors, including any actions taken in response to previous safety recommendations.
Our investigation is independent of any investigation by the railway industry, the British Transport Police or by the industry’s regulator, the Office of Rail and Road.

We will publish our findings, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of our investigation. This report will be available on our website.

You can subscribe to automated emails notifying you when we publish our reports.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bradshaw on November 04, 2021, 11:32:59
Network Rail Wessex are providing a developing thread on the recovery of the carriages throughout the day, complete with photographs, on their Twitter account

https://twitter.com/networkrailwssx/status/1456213392847421440?s=21


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 04, 2021, 15:08:51
Paul Clifton has a few others on his twitter feed courtesy of a lass from ITV


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: MVR S&T on November 04, 2021, 18:51:52
Video and photos of the recovery:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59163323



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 04, 2021, 20:04:20
Video and photos of the recovery:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59163323

which identifies the driver, with a photo,

Quote
South Western Railway said its driver Robin Tandy had acted in an "impeccable way in a valiant attempt to keep passengers safe"
The driver of the SWR train Robin Tandy, 74, suffered "life-changing" injuries in the crash, with 14 passengers out of the 92 on board requiring hospital treatment.

SWR said it hoped the early assessment by the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, showing the driver reacted correctly to the signals, would help "stop speculation".


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: broadgage on November 04, 2021, 20:13:17
The RAIB are in my view to commended for the prompt publication of a preliminary report.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: MVR S&T on November 04, 2021, 21:47:54
Hmm...

https://twitter.com/IanHardie9018/status/1456291780199071755



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 05, 2021, 11:52:51
Also:

https://twitter.com/IanHardie9018/status/1456345903892213760

Wheel slip continues.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: CyclingSid on November 05, 2021, 13:23:18
Maybe, as NR seems to have admitted there will be serious to their infrastructure, they need to ask if MoD can provide an ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle) and creww to assist. 52 ton straight pull, 104 ton presumably at 2:1. Would need some serious ground anchors and the dozer blade. Would be quicker than cutting up on site.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 05, 2021, 15:23:35
Maybe, as NR seems to have admitted there will be serious to their infrastructure, they need to ask if MoD can provide an ARV (Armoured Recovery Vehicle) and creww to assist. 52 ton straight pull, 104 ton presumably at 2:1. Would need some serious ground anchors and the dozer blade. Would be quicker than cutting up on site.

The railway used to have cable winch systems which involved a number of locomotives to anchor it and more to provide the pull, this was in the days of steam and first gen diesels, Class 59 have very good traction control.  They are obviously trying to separate the coaches without using cutting tools, pulling apart is a lot safer than a person with a gas axe in amongst a crashed train in a tunnel.

May be 2 or 3 Class 59  ;D 


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 05, 2021, 15:32:36
Just need a bit of slack in the chain and a short run up Kinetic recovery works a treat most times,I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it mind you !....


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 05, 2021, 17:17:54
The difficult 2nd carriage (the 159 centre car) is now reported lifted out, and with a third now ready to lift (the 158 rear car).  But I expect they’ll not work overnight.



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: MVR S&T on November 06, 2021, 18:14:53
Another picture, showing that the crossings of the junction have been 'plain lined' in favour of the london bould route, so Romsey to from Salisbury route ot to reopen for some time or via Laverstock and Andover??

https://twitter.com/vickycahoy/status/1456677842851356672


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 06, 2021, 18:24:32
Another picture, showing that the crossings of the junction have been 'plain lined' in favour of the london bould route, so Romsey to from Salisbury route ot to reopen for some time or via Laverstock and Andover??

https://twitter.com/vickycahoy/status/1456677842851356672

Suggestions elsewhere is that the crossing was plain lined because they anticipated track damage caused by the removal method using the class 59.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ellendune on November 06, 2021, 18:36:35
Another picture, showing that the crossings of the junction have been 'plain lined' in favour of the london bould route, so Romsey to from Salisbury route ot to reopen for some time or via Laverstock and Andover??

https://twitter.com/vickycahoy/status/1456677842851356672

Suggestions elsewhere is that the crossing was plain lined because they anticipated track damage caused by the removal method using the class 59.

Do you mean they plain lined it before the recovery in order that it was possible to put it back afterwards undamaged?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 06, 2021, 18:41:01
Another picture, showing that the crossings of the junction have been 'plain lined' in favour of the london bould route, so Romsey to from Salisbury route ot to reopen for some time or via Laverstock and Andover??

https://twitter.com/vickycahoy/status/1456677842851356672

Suggestions elsewhere is that the crossing was plain lined because they anticipated track damage caused by the removal method using the class 59.

Do you mean they plain lined it before the recovery in order that it was possible to put it back afterwards undamaged?
Possibly, either that or they were worried in case the Class 59 lost grip if standing exactly on the crossover.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 07, 2021, 07:38:31
Another picture, showing that the crossings of the junction have been 'plain lined' in favour of the london bould route, so Romsey to from Salisbury route ot to reopen for some time or via Laverstock and Andover??

https://twitter.com/vickycahoy/status/1456677842851356672

Suggestions elsewhere is that the crossing was plain lined because they anticipated track damage caused by the removal method using the class 59.

Do you mean they plain lined it before the recovery in order that it was possible to put it back afterwards undamaged?
Possibly, either that or they were worried in case the Class 59 lost grip if standing exactly on the crossover.

Or it is posible the ORR wanted the rail to be kept as evidence / forensic tests and was removed from site ........

Or to direct the lines of force during the recover pull in a single direction to limit the damage to the rest of the track


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Bob_Blakey on November 07, 2021, 09:33:56
...and a BTP officer was videoing recovery of at least one of the carriages because...? I would expect a BTP presence to deter 'trophy hunters' but I hardly think filming the recovery operation would be part of their remit. I am of course prepared to be corrected on this.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 07, 2021, 10:32:10
...and a BTP officer was videoing recovery of at least one of the carriages because...? I would expect a BTP presence to deter 'trophy hunters' but I hardly think filming the recovery operation would be part of their remit. I am of course prepared to be corrected on this.

BTP will be there also investigating for criminal activity which may have lead to the accident, the video quite posible will go on their case file to be used should the need arise.

Accidents like these are investigated by the ORR, BTP, RAIB, NR and the ToCs usually the industry (NR and ToC's) is done as a joint investigation and is always subservient to the RAIB, ORR and BTP who have statutory powers, in the case of BTP and ORR they can arrest, charge and present a case to the CPS


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 07, 2021, 13:09:16
The human cost aside, the financial burden of this derailment must be... considerable.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2021, 19:11:53
...and a BTP officer was videoing recovery of at least one of the carriages because...? I would expect a BTP presence to deter 'trophy hunters' but I hardly think filming the recovery operation would be part of their remit. I am of course prepared to be corrected on this.

BTP will be there also investigating for criminal activity which may have lead to the accident, the video quite posible will go on their case file to be used should the need arise.

Accidents like these are investigated by the ORR, BTP, RAIB, NR and the ToCs usually the industry (NR and ToC's) is done as a joint investigation and is always subservient to the RAIB, ORR and BTP who have statutory powers, in the case of BTP and ORR they can arrest, charge and present a case to the CPS

I would hope one of them will include an investigation as to why almost completely spurious information was putvout to the press immediately after the accident.

No hitting ‘something’ on the track by the rear GWR carriage
No 7 minute gap before the SWT train then hit the GWR
No signal failure after the GWR train ‘derailed’

One might ask whether someone or somebody was thinking there may be need to cover something up…it was quoted by some MSM as coming from Network Rail. Even the BTP quoted from it in initial TV interviews that night.

There was also twitter comment at the time that an unnamed member of staff had passed a staff log of some description to part(s) of the MSM. The S*n was mentioned it one twitter thread I saw.

This is the first time I think this has happened. Usually waiting for ORR or RAIB to make an initial announcement. Something (almost) got out of control & wasn’t stopped quickly enough.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 07, 2021, 20:57:37
I would hope one of them will include an investigation as to why almost completely spurious information was putvout to the press immediately after the accident.

Early information about what's going on tends to confused and make assumptions which can be wrong. But this was astonishing. Thank goodness we have very, very few "source" incidents which form the base for this sort of thing and, yes, we should learn.  We have certainly had the danger of jumping to conclusions very starkly illustrated.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2021, 21:33:46
The human cost aside, the financial burden of this derailment must be... considerable.

....which will inevitably be borne by the taxpayer, legal expenses, compensation and all.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: eXPassenger on November 07, 2021, 22:31:15
...and a BTP officer was videoing recovery of at least one of the carriages because...? I would expect a BTP presence to deter 'trophy hunters' but I hardly think filming the recovery operation would be part of their remit. I am of course prepared to be corrected on this.

BTP will be there also investigating for criminal activity which may have lead to the accident, the video quite posible will go on their case file to be used should the need arise.

Accidents like these are investigated by the ORR, BTP, RAIB, NR and the ToCs usually the industry (NR and ToC's) is done as a joint investigation and is always subservient to the RAIB, ORR and BTP who have statutory powers, in the case of BTP and ORR they can arrest, charge and present a case to the CPS

I would hope one of them will include an investigation as to why almost completely spurious information was putvout to the press immediately after the accident.

No hitting ‘something’ on the track by the rear GWR carriage
No 7 minute gap before the SWT train then hit the GWR
No signal failure after the GWR train ‘derailed’

One might ask whether someone or somebody was thinking there may be need to cover something up…it was quoted by some MSM as coming from Network Rail. Even the BTP quoted from it in initial TV interviews that night.

There was also twitter comment at the time that an unnamed member of staff had passed a staff log of some description to part(s) of the MSM. The S*n was mentioned it one twitter thread I saw.

This is the first time I think this has happened. Usually waiting for ORR or RAIB to make an initial announcement. Something (almost) got out of control & wasn’t stopped quickly enough.

I think you are reading too much into this.  After an incident like this information will be very mixed.  I can see how the GWR driver reported that 'his rear unit had hit something' since he did not know at the time that he had been hit by the SWR train.  The 7 minutes appears to have been from passenger comments.  From NR's viewpoint they had lost the signals when the trains chewed up the material in the tunnel.

In the current media age you are criticised if you make early statements that are overtaken be events and criticised if you make no statements, so there is no easy answer.

I remember similar confusion in the early hours of the Scottish accident and that was far simpler.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 07, 2021, 23:03:47
As for the 'staff log' being passed to the media that doesn't mean it was a member of rail staff who passed on such info. The TyrellCheck information system is available to many outside the industry.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 07, 2021, 23:50:02
I would hope one of them will include an investigation as to why almost completely spurious information was putvout to the press immediately after the accident.

No hitting ‘something’ on the track by the rear GWR carriage
No 7 minute gap before the SWT train then hit the GWR
No signal failure after the GWR train ‘derailed’

One might ask whether someone or somebody was thinking there may be need to cover something up…it was quoted by some MSM as coming from Network Rail. Even the BTP quoted from it in initial TV interviews that night.

There was also twitter comment at the time that an unnamed member of staff had passed a staff log of some description to part(s) of the MSM. The S*n was mentioned it one twitter thread I saw.

This is the first time I think this has happened. Usually waiting for ORR or RAIB to make an initial announcement. Something (almost) got out of control & wasn’t stopped quickly enough.

I was a bit puzzled that so many people - including on here and on railforums - took the initial "statement" as gospel and tried deducing everything else from it. Or rather second-hand reports of something from NR - I don't think I've yet seen the NR press information behind them. I imagined the source data said something like "initial reports say..." , which is often not passed on. But in this case it soon became clear some of it was wrong.

As you may have spotted by now, I'm instinctively suspicious of second-hand reports, via the media of any kind. Hence I prefer get the source information where possible, even after a bit of a delay. Of course media (and other) comment on that is generally needed to point out where the source is, for example, trying to hide something.

I can't see that it's in any way unusual for NR to put out an early explanation of what has happened, or even for it to be not just incomplete but wrong. But they do need to flag that clearly, and might do better to put that out themselves rather than relying on the media or insiders leaking stuff. What I saw that was found leaked was on Politics For All (maybe not quite mainstream?), and was an incident log from Wessex Integrated Control Centre at Basingstoke:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDDd-adWQAA8XKE?format=jpg&name=small)

So right from the start the basic sequence of events was wrong. That looks as if it was concocted from the drivers' initial radio calls, and remember that the way 1F30 split will have given that driver a false impression of what had happened (until he had a good look outside). Add some more reports from the first MOM on site and some signallers, and you can get what was put out.

Of course it should not have been put out in that form. Someone ought to have cut it to the minimum known to be true, that there had been a collision involving two trains and the reported injuries. NR really should know by now that once BTP and RAIB are involved it becomes almost impossible for them to make further comment on the accident itself, even to correct their own errors.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 08, 2021, 00:03:13
As a further comment on that WICC incident message, I've just noticed it is timed at 19:21 and marked "NEW". But the collision was at 18:42, and first reports must have come in in minutes. So why is that message so much later but apparently with only the first reports in? Is it not what it appears to be?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 08, 2021, 07:51:00

I can't see that it's in any way unusual for NR to put out an early explanation of what has happened, or even for it to be not just incomplete but wrong. But they do need to flag that clearly, and might do better to put that out themselves rather than relying on the media or insiders leaking stuff. What I saw that was found leaked was on Politics For All (maybe not quite mainstream?), and was an incident log from Wessex Integrated Control Centre at Basingstoke:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FDDd-adWQAA8XKE?format=jpg&name=small)

So right from the start the basic sequence of events was wrong. That looks as if it was concocted from the drivers' initial radio calls, and remember that the way 1F30 split will have given that driver a false impression of what had happened (until he had a good look outside). Add some more reports from the first MOM on site and some signallers, and you can get what was put out.

Of course it should not have been put out in that form. Someone ought to have cut it to the minimum known to be true, that there had been a collision involving two trains and the reported injuries. NR really should known by now that once BTP and RAIB are involved it becomes almost impossible for them to make further comment on the accident itself, even to correct their own errors.
As a further comment on that WICC incident message, I've just noticed it is timed at 19:21 and marked "NEW". But the collision was at 18:42, and first reports must have come in in minutes. So why is that message so much later but apparently with only the first reports in? Is it not what it appears to be?

Reports in NR fault control logs appear in the chronological order they are received, they may not be in the actual sequence.   For 90% plus of the faults and incidents that fault control deal with it works fine.

The 'machinery' to respond to these types on incident is well documented in the industry, moving from Bronze to Silver and then to Gold Command although the escalation through this process is quite quick it does not move at the same pace as the media.  The command structure in an incident like this would focus on preservation of life (ie support for blue light services), safety, welfare, service recovery / diversion / busitution, comms not being a top priority 


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TonyK on November 10, 2021, 07:50:59

BTP will be there also investigating for criminal activity which may have lead to the accident, the video quite posible will go on their case file to be used should the need arise.

Accidents like these are investigated by the ORR, BTP, RAIB, NR and the ToCs usually the industry (NR and ToC's) is done as a joint investigation and is always subservient to the RAIB, ORR and BTP who have statutory powers, in the case of BTP and ORR they can arrest, charge and present a case to the CPS

It costs pretty much nothing to gather that bit of evidence, certainly when compared with trying the get it after the train has been fully removed. It will show the damage to the carriage at the moment of recovery, so that anything cause in transporting it can be discounted. It will probably be looked at once, if at all.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on November 10, 2021, 18:28:57
It’s been mentioned in the WNXX forum that the rear GWR unit, 158763, has already been declared a write off.

Paul


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bradshaw on November 12, 2021, 11:55:04
Line reopening Tuesday

Quote
   Following two weeks of the line being closed, Network Rail will spend a full day using its leaf-busting Rail Head Treatment Trains to jet wash the tracks free of any debris or leaf mulch. A series of test trains will also run on the new infrastructure to check it is operating correctly before passenger services begin on Tuesday morning.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-south-western-railway-and-great-western-railway-joint-statement-salisbury-railway-to-reopen-fully-from-tuesday-16-november

New photo on Twitter
https://twitter.com/networkrailwssx/status/1459112693445672967?s=21


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 12, 2021, 16:17:44
NR news release in full:

Quote
Network Rail, South Western Railway and Great Western Railway joint statement: Salisbury railway to reopen fully from Tuesday, 16 November

(https://cdn.prgloo.com/media/7601259e7672468a8251c321b40c9b7d.jpg?width=1135&height=960)

Following last week’s accident, Network Rail, South Western Railway and Great Western Railway today announce that trains through Salisbury will begin running again on Tuesday, 16 November.

The rail industry has been working together to clear the line and make it safe to run trains again, with repair works set to be complete by Monday. Following two weeks of the line being closed, Network Rail will spend a full day using its leaf-busting Rail Head Treatment Trains to jet wash the tracks free of any debris or leaf mulch. A series of test trains will also run on the new infrastructure to check it is operating correctly before passenger services begin on Tuesday morning.

Network Rail’s route director for Wessex, Mark Killick, said: “I really appreciate how patient everyone has been with us over the past week and a half, from customers who have had their journeys disrupted, to our neighbours who have had cranes outside their houses, London Road closed for a period, and people working 24 hours a day to repair the railway right in the middle of their neighbourhood.

“That work is going to continue until Monday, as we finish replacing damaged equipment and making sure the railway is fit for action again.

“Our railway is one of the safest in the world and when a rare incident like this happens, we have to find out exactly what went wrong. That’s why we’re working closely with the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, British Transport Police and Office of Rail and Road on their investigations and we will be transparent and open with everyone when we know more about exactly what caused this.”

Claire Mann, Managing Director of South Western Railway, said: “This has been a difficult time for all those affected by last Sunday’s incident and I’d like to thank the Salisbury community, our customers and colleagues for all their help both on the night and over the last ten days.

“Many people rely on our services every day and I am sorry for the disruption this incident has caused and am grateful for their ongoing patience. We have worked tirelessly with Network Rail and our industry partners to reopen the railway and I look forward to welcoming customers back to our services on Tuesday”.

Mark Hopwood, Managing Director of Great Western Railway, said: “Our staff have been overwhelmed by the support shown by customers and the community over the past ten days. The incident last Sunday was challenging for everyone involved, and we are grateful for everyone’s support and patience in the days and weeks since.

“The rail industry has put every effort into reopening the railway as soon as possible, and we’re looking forward to customers returning from 16 November.”

The accident involving an SWR train and a GWR train, occurred on Sunday 31 October, blocking the line just outside the Fisherton Tunnel, where routes from London and Southampton merge on their way into Salisbury.

Since then, the line between Salisbury and Andover has been blocked, with SWR and GWR providing alternative travel arrangements through diversions or rail replacement services. 

Network Rail has been working with partners from across the industry to reopen the railway. So far, five damaged train carriages have been craned out from the accident site, which is in a cutting below the level of the surrounding area near London Road, in the Fisherton area of Salisbury. Almost 1,500 sleepers – the cross-ties that support the track – are being replaced, along with three sets of points, that allow trains to move from one track to another. In addition, 1,000 yards of new track is being laid in the tunnel to provide a smoother ride for passengers.

Signalling equipment including track circuits – which tell us where trains are –  are also being repaired, replaced and thoroughly-tested before the line reopens.

To support passengers’ journeys, buses are running from Salisbury to Andover for South Western Railway customers, and from Salisbury to Romsey for Great Western Railway, with tickets accepted on diversionary routes via Reading.

While London Road was closed over the bridge, a minibus provided transport for neighbours who needed to get round the block, and two local meetings were held to keep the community updated on the work.
Source: Network Rail (https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-south-western-railway-and-great-western-railway-joint-statement-salisbury-railway-to-reopen-fully-from-tuesday-16-november)



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 15, 2021, 14:34:46
NR news release in full:
Quote
The rail industry has been working together to clear the line and make it safe to run trains again, with repair works set to be complete by Monday. Following two weeks of the line being closed, Network Rail will spend a full day using its leaf-busting Rail Head Treatment Trains to jet wash the tracks free of any debris or leaf mulch. A series of test trains will also run on the new infrastructure to check it is operating correctly before passenger services begin on Tuesday morning.
Source: Network Rail (https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/network-rail-south-western-railway-and-great-western-railway-joint-statement-salisbury-railway-to-reopen-fully-from-tuesday-16-november)

Well, maybe not a full day. After at least ten RHTT passes through Tunnel Junction today, the first SWR proving train (5Z00) is currently sitting at SAL and due off in a minute or two. But that wasn't the first train through in service - an empty aggregate train to Whatley got that sticker at 14:15 (727U).


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 15, 2021, 18:19:29
So far so good, if late. 5Z00 has got to Romsey and back, then Andover and back, without coming across any missing bits of track. Because it gets timed at Salisbury five times, and Tunnel Junction eight, and was about 90 minutes late, poor old RTT has been struggling to match actual progress with the timetable. 5Z00 has already set out on its second double round trip, so it's looking good for tomorrow.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 16, 2021, 10:29:01
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59303217)

Quote
A railway line which has been closed for more than two weeks following a train crash has reopened.

Commuters and residents have faced major disruption since two trains collided on the approach to Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury on 31 October.

Repairs and safety checks have now been completed, allowing a full service to resume on Tuesday morning.

Mayor of Salisbury Caroline Corbin said it was nice for everyone to get back to normality.

snip

Quote
Both trains derailed and travelled into the tunnel before coming to a standstill, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch said.

SWR driver Mr Tandy was praised by the operator for "acting impeccably" to keep passengers safe.

Managing director Claire Mann said Mr Tandy was being looked after very well in hospital and it was hoped he would make a full recovery.

She said: "We cant pre-empt what the investigation will conclude but the initial findings showed low rail adhesion, so the contact between the rail and the wheel was difficult on this day.

"So before reopening today there have been some extra water-jetting and leaf-busting trains that Network Rail have run to ensure that it's as safe as possible."


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 16, 2021, 10:38:36
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59303217)

Quote
A railway line which has been closed for more than two weeks following a train crash has reopened.

Commuters and residents have faced major disruption since two trains collided on the approach to Fisherton Tunnel near Salisbury on 31 October.

Repairs and safety checks have now been completed, allowing a full service to resume on Tuesday morning.

Mayor of Salisbury Caroline Corbin said it was nice for everyone to get back to normality.

snip

Quote
Both trains derailed and travelled into the tunnel before coming to a standstill, the Rail Accident Investigation Branch said.

SWR driver Mr Tandy was praised by the operator for "acting impeccably" to keep passengers safe.

Managing director Claire Mann said Mr Tandy was being looked after very well in hospital and it was hoped he would make a full recovery.

She said: "We cant pre-empt what the investigation will conclude but the initial findings showed low rail adhesion, so the contact between the rail and the wheel was difficult on this day.

"So before reopening today there have been some extra water-jetting and leaf-busting trains that Network Rail have run to ensure that it's as safe as possible."

Good news re: reopening & the driver's recovery.  Final para does bring locking stable doors after horses have bolted somewhat to mind however.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 16, 2021, 13:10:31
Unfortunately, things have fallen over in the Tunnel Junction area.

Quote
RED Incident: UPGRADED Red: Salisbury Tunnel Junction- T/C Failure RN
Salisbury SB contacted control to advise that RN track circuit is currently SOWC and as a result has route locked the tunnel junction with the only moves being permissible at this stage to be trains on the Up Main towards Andover. Salisbury signaller to advise on a method of work once capabilities of the infrastructure have been explored.
Update 12:54-
Incident has been upgraded due to meeting the threshold for passenger impact.

Situation:
An intermittent fault is causing track circuit RN at Salisbury Tunnel Junction to flicker. The signaller will route trains and talk past respective signals. S&T are currently on site. However delays are having a high impact due to the location of the fault. We are currently talking past signals to allow trains to run through the area but this is causing severe delay, S&T, ARM to liaise and discuss a method of work, that will initiate a train service plan.

Customer Message:
Buses have been requested for
2 x SAL to BSK to run all stations between
2 x SAL to SOU via Romsey running between.
2 SAL to ESL via Chandlers Ford running between.
Ticket acceptance requested on Xelabus X6/ X7 ESL-CFR
Disruption is expected till 15:00.

Oh dear.



Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 16, 2021, 16:36:02
The scene from the A30 London Road at 1500 today:

(https://i.ibb.co/fx3d7Pg/IMG-20211116-150425.jpg)

And from Network Rail at 1545:

Quote
Update 15:45
Fault placed in order by S&T , normal working resumed. S&T will go in tonight in a possession to rectify

Fingers crossed the track circuit doesn't fail again.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: AMLAG on November 16, 2021, 18:01:46

With the line through Fisherton Tunnel reopened it did not take long for the often shambolic service to reappear, Thanks this time to a track circuit failure:-

1020 Waterloo to Exeter started from Salisbury 39 minutes late and terminated at Honiton 62 minutes late.
1120 Waterloo to Exeter terminated at Salisbury 67 minutes late.
1425 Exeter to Waterloo started from Honiton.
1220 Waterloo to Exeter reported 65 minutes late at Exmouth Junction.
1420 Waterloo to Exeter terminated at Salisbury.
1825 Exeter to Waterloo started from Salisbury.

So no service from Exeter between 1325 and 1625, shades of the last days of the S&D.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 16, 2021, 22:02:57
And just to add to the Salisbury area woes today there has been a wrong side track circuit failure on the line through Platform 3 this evening.

Also 2S51 the 1707 from Romsey to Salisbury had a slippy slide moment on the approach to Laverstock South Jcn. No SPAD. Driver was able to contact signaller and have next signal (SY35) cleared as there was no conflicting traffic.

The area seems cursed at the moment.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 17, 2021, 05:24:56
And for today, from National Rail:

Quote
Slippery rails in the Salisbury area mean that South Western Railway services at the station will be disrupted today.

The following alterations will be in place:
Services between Exeter St Davids and London Waterloo will be reduced to one train per hour. Other services will terminate and restart at Salisbury.
Services between Salisbury and Romsey via Southampton Central will be cancelled.
Some services between London Waterloo and Poole / Weymouth will call additionally at Basingstoke and / or Swaythling.
 
Tickets will be accepted at no extra cost on the following services:
Great Western Railway between Salisbury and Southampton Central. These services will call additionally at Redbridge and Millbrook.
Great Western Railway between Exeter St. Davids and London Paddington
London Underground between London Paddington and London Waterloo
 
A replacement bus service has been requested to run between Salisbury, Dean, Mottisfont & Dunbridge, Romsey, Chandlers Ford and Eastleigh, but this is not yet confirmed.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: bradshaw on November 17, 2021, 08:28:55
Updated information

Quote
.  Train services running through this station may be cancelled, delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.
What We're Doing About It:
We have been informed that there are poor railhead conditions (poor railhead adhesion) caused by external seasonal factors (leaf fall/heavy rain etc) in the Salisbury area. Trains take longer to accelerate and brake in these conditions and so will incur delays.
Until further notice, the following service alterations will take place
- Shuttle services are running between Salisbury and Exeter St Davids
- Shuttle services are running between Basingstoke and Yeovil Junction/Salisbury
- Services running between Salisbury and Romsey will be cancelled
- Some services between London Waterloo and Poole/Weymouth will call additionally at Basingstoke and/or Swaythling


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Timmer on November 17, 2021, 08:32:43
Surprised nothing is mentioned about this on GWR Journeycheck as it is affecting their services through Salisbury as well with the Brightons and additional services to/from Southampton starting and ending short.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 17, 2021, 09:44:19
Paul Clifton the BBC journalist covering transport, local evening news 16th November. 2nd item in.
Trigger Warning: the piece includes a still photo of the location from 1954 that some viewers may find upsetting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0011pdl/south-today-evening-news-16112021


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 17, 2021, 14:46:45
Surprised nothing is mentioned about this on GWR Journeycheck as it is affecting their services through Salisbury as well with the Brightons and additional services to/from Southampton starting and ending short.

Belated, it is there now:

Quote
Alterations to services between Salisbury and Romsey

Due to slippery rails between Salisbury and Romsey trains have to run at reduced speed on all lines.
Train services running through these stations may be delayed by up to 15 minutes or revised. Disruption is expected until the end of the day.

Further Information

If you hold a valid single, return, or weekly ticket, you will be able to claim compensation for delays of 15 minutes or more. Please keep your ticket and visit GWR.com/DelayRepay

Last Updated:17/11/2021 14:17


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Clan Line on November 17, 2021, 14:49:18

Trigger Warning: the piece includes a still photo of the location from 1954 that some viewers may find upsetting.


Those photos of Salisbury tunnel junction are totally representative of today's lineside vegetation compared to some years ago. I do a lot of photography, including railways, and it has become more and more difficult to find stretches of railway line that are not obscured by trees/bushes. I am not talking about going back to the 50s, I have photographs taken only a few years ago, of locations where I no longer visit as it is now totally impossible to see what is on the track at that point.  Example below.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tbFCknt/DSC-0014-edited-1-3-edited-1-F.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://i.postimg.cc/dVW5Hdpw/JWN02282-ARW-Dx-O-Deep-PRIME.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Top photo taken 2009. Lower taken today. I have not attempted to take a photograph here for 5 years or more ! The tree, just visible, on the extreme left of each photo is the same tree. You can just make out bits of the metal fencing !

This could be a really difficult "where was I today" .........................any offers ?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 17, 2021, 16:12:35
This could be a really difficult "where was I today" .........................any offers ?
Standing on a small molehill!

--------------

That hedge is on the field side of the fence, so presumably outside the control or responsibility of Network Rail. They'd be allowed to lop off branches on their side of the fence but to remove the hedge or prune it would, I presume, have to negotiate with the farmer.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 17, 2021, 16:47:10
That hedgerow looks to me to be mostly rooted behind the fence. Encroaching onto the field.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 17, 2021, 19:47:08
Looking at the photo again, I think you're right. It's so much encroached that it looks like it's in front of the fence. So in that case, sort it out NR! (But is a hedge at the bottom of an embankment necessarily a problem? Annoying for photographers, but I'd have thought in that position and that height, leaves are not going to be a problem, and it's at the bottom so less likely to lead to destabilisation. But I appreciate it's only an illustrative example and there are other places where vegetation does cause problems.)


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 17, 2021, 20:08:52
Oh, and Clan Line. Cracking picture of D1015. A favourite loco of mine.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 17, 2021, 21:20:07
Second that BNM.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on November 17, 2021, 21:29:37
That hedgerow looks to me to be mostly rooted behind the fence. Encroaching onto the field.

I think you're flattering it by calling it a hedgerow. Is it all Buddleia?


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 18, 2021, 09:13:40
I was told by a railway professional, but would like it confirmed by legal minds, that the railway owns the land 6 feet beyond the boundary fence; this is to enable them to maintain said fence.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on November 18, 2021, 10:50:55
I was told by a railway professional, but would like it confirmed by legal minds, that the railway owns the land 6 feet beyond the boundary fence; this is to enable them to maintain said fence.

It would seem unlikely that they would own it - thinking of gardens backing on to the railway fence in lots of places, but they probably have a right of access and, yes, I can believe that would be a 6 foot allowance.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Mark A on November 18, 2021, 13:32:42
It's a problem for neighbouring farmers as that can decrease the productivity of the field alongside.

In urban areas, this will cast excess shade on small gardens, but also lead to a split of neighbour opinions: 'Please manage your vegetation' versus more or less rational takes on 'Trees.'


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Electric train on November 18, 2021, 22:41:44
I was told by a railway professional, but would like it confirmed by legal minds, that the railway owns the land 6 feet beyond the boundary fence; this is to enable them to maintain said fence.

I don't think that is the case.  The railways has certain powers in can use to access its land in certain circumstances eg a derailment but its not powers the railways make use of.  To access the railway across third party land contact is made with the land owner and times and terms agreed


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: JayMac on November 18, 2021, 23:08:47
Oh, and Clan Line. Cracking picture of D1015. A favourite loco of mine.

D1015 Western Champion was recently (Sept 2021) back out on Network Rail metals load testing with cement wagons in preparation for a return to use on mainline railtours. Sadly, she suffered an engine seizure on a trip to and from Avonmouth and has returned to the Severn Valley Railway for further work. Hopefully she will back on railtours in 2022.





Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: Clan Line on November 19, 2021, 09:24:29
Oh, and Clan Line. Cracking picture of D1015. A favourite loco of mine.

D1015 Western Champion was recently (Sept 2021) back out on Network Rail metals load testing with cement wagons in preparation for a return to use on mainline railtours. Sadly, she suffered an engine seizure on a trip to and from Avonmouth and has returned to the Severn Valley Railway for further work. Hopefully she will back on railtours in 2022.


I seem to recollect that not long after I took that photo of D1015 she put a couple of pistons through the side of the engine block.
I love the second part of the video: With the foreshortening effect of the long lens it makes the "light" loco look like a little bubble car scurrying along the track !


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: paul7575 on February 21, 2022, 10:32:03
RAIB have published an interim report, I’ve had a quick read through and it really just confirms what exactly happened and when. 

I think we had eventually realised that contrary to the mass media scare stories about “sitting ducks” both trains were moving at the first impact, and there were no preceding signal failures, or objects on the line etc etc.

Investigations continue into various things, especially rail conditions at the time:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1055846/IR012022_220221_Salisbury_Tunnel_Junction.pdf


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on February 21, 2022, 10:52:07
There's no mention in that RAIB report of looking at the public statements made by NR and others. In fact I don't think it's part of RAIB's remit, but it is a topic ORR have criticised in the past. I wonder if they would do so in this case.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: infoman on February 21, 2022, 11:41:13
I would have thought that most junctions would have had catch points fitted.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 21, 2022, 12:15:28
I would have thought that most junctions would have had catch points fitted.

Catch points are only generally fitted at exits to sidings or loops, or smaller junctions where two tracks diverge into one and catch points would derail the train into a safe place - not possible at a lot of larger junctions.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2022, 11:44:42
RAIB have just added this paragraph to their page for this incident:
Quote
RAIB’s draft investigation report into this accident is currently being reviewed prior to the start of the consultation. RAIB expects to publish the final investigation report before the end of the year. RAIB issued an interim report in February 2022, which discussed our initial findings, and has continued to liaise with stakeholders, including the rail industry, as the investigation has progressed.

That consultation is, I presume, just the routine discussion of the report with the concerned parties prior to publication.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on June 28, 2023, 23:22:38
RAIB have just added this paragraph to their page for this incident:
Quote
RAIB’s draft investigation report into this accident is currently being reviewed prior to the start of the consultation. RAIB expects to publish the final investigation report before the end of the year. RAIB issued an interim report in February 2022, which discussed our initial findings, and has continued to liaise with stakeholders, including the rail industry, as the investigation has progressed.

That consultation is, I presume, just the routine discussion of the report with the concerned parties prior to publication.

That paragraph was revised in December to predict publication of the final report "in the spring".
Yesterday it was re-revised to read:
Quote
RAIB’s draft investigation report into this accident has now been sent to interested parties as part of the statutory consultation process. RAIB expects to publish the final report shortly after the consultation process is completed. RAIB issued an interim report in February 2022 and continues to liaise with stakeholders on our findings and any arising safety issues.


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: stuving on October 24, 2023, 11:00:35
The much-delayed and consulted upon final report on this accident has finally been published. Obviously there is not much new in it, as what happened and broadly why are already known. I think that the final points are about what ought to have been done, and what should and can be done in the future, to reduce the probability of such events.

The final report (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65367d3026b9b1000faf1d79/R122023_231024_Sailsbury.pdf) is on this page (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-122023-collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction), and this is the key section of the summary in it:
Quote
The causes of the accident were that wheel/rail adhesion was very low in the area where the driver of train 1L53 applied the train’s brakes, that the driver did not apply the train’s brakes sufficiently early on approach to the signal protecting the junction to avoid running on to it, given the prevailing low level of adhesion, and that the braking systems of train 1L53 were unable to mitigate this very low adhesion.

The level of wheel/rail adhesion was very low due to leaf contamination on the railhead, and had been made worse by a band of drizzle that occurred immediately before the passage of train 1L53. This leaf contamination resulted from the weather conditions on the day of the accident, coupled with an increased density of vegetation in the area which had not been effectively managed by Network Rail’s Wessex route.

Network Rail’s Wessex route had also not effectively managed the contamination on the railhead with either proactive or reactive measures. RAIB’s investigation found that a probable underlying factor was that Network Rail’s Wessex route did not effectively manage the risks of low adhesion associated with the leaf fall season. RAIB also found that South Western Railway not effectively preparing its drivers for assessing and reporting low adhesion conditions was a possible underlying factor.

RAIB has also made two safety observations. These relate to the application of revised design criteria for the Train Protection and Warning System and the assessment of signal overrun risk and how this accounts for high risk of low adhesion sites. Two issues were found relating to the severity of the consequences. These were a loss of survival space in the driver’s cab of train 1L53, and the jamming of internal sliding doors, which obstructed passenger evacuation routes.

Since the accident, Network Rail has reviewed its training and competence framework for off track staff at network level, and is also reviewing its adhesion management standards. Network Rail’s Wessex route is reviewing its arrangements for proactively responding to reports of low adhesion, including how it undertakes railhead treatment.

South Western Railway has made changes relating to training and briefing of its drivers to ensure information on autumn arrangements has been effectively briefed and understood.
[continues with more changes of this kind]


Title: Re: Two trains collide near Salisbury - 31 Oct 21
Post by: grahame on October 24, 2023, 12:44:13
The much-delayed and consulted upon final report on this accident has finally been published.

I have also mirrored it for members at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/R122023_231024_Sailsbury.pdf - keeping the RAIB file name which is Sailsbury rather than Salisbury. So it'll come up as appropriate in our searches; as with other rail accidents, indexed under the date of the accident rather than the publication date of the report.



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