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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: stuving on November 18, 2021, 14:25:39



Title: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: stuving on November 18, 2021, 14:25:39
While this has been mentioned already in other dispatchesthreads, I'm sure it deserves its own. The DfT web page (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-the-midlands) contains the main report plus a separate glossary, and this brief summery:
Quote
The Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) sets out the government’s proposals to transform the rail network in the North and Midlands.

It is a £96 billion plan that outlines how major rail projects, including HS2 Phase 2b, Northern Powerhouse Rail and Midlands Rail Hub, will be delivered sooner than previous plans so that communities, towns and cities across the North and Midlands are better connected with more frequent, reliable and greener services and faster journey times.

The plan confirms that the government will:

    build 3 new high-speed lines including:
        HS2 from Crewe to Manchester
        HS2 from the West Midlands to East Midlands Parkway, enabling HS2 trains to join existing lines to serve Nottingham and Derby city centres (unlike original plans)
        a new high-speed line between Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire, as part of Northern Powerhouse Rail

    electrify and/or upgrade 3 existing main lines including:
        the Transpennine Main Line between Manchester, Leeds and York
        the Midland Main Line between London St Pancras, the East Midlands, and Sheffield
        upgrading and improving line speeds on the East Coast Main Line

The plan also confirms that the government will progress options to complete the Midlands Rail Hub and spend £100 million to look at how best to take HS2 trains to Leeds, including assessing capacity at Leeds station and starting work on the West Yorkshire mass transit system.

There is also this DfT announcement (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/integrated-rail-plan-biggest-ever-public-investment-in-britains-rail-network-will-deliver-faster-more-frequent-and-more-reliable-journeys-across-no), which is a bit longer, and the commons statement from Grant Shapps will be somewhere around as well. So, that's your homework for next week sorted.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: stuving on November 18, 2021, 14:32:14
And here is that Commons statement (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-the-midlands), at least in its published form.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: grahame on November 18, 2021, 14:57:07
Yes, it probably does deserve it's one thread and when I'm back on unterra floatica in a few hours I'll look to tidy up. 

He makes no bones about nothing for the South / West, does he?

Quote
So in total, this package is 110 miles of new high-speed line. All of it in the Midlands and the North. It is 180 miles of newly-electrified line. All of it in the Midlands and North.

No electric trains to be seen on Oxford or Bristol Temple Meads or Salisbury, then.  Any chance of announcements for the South West, or is the positive news there limited to Okehampton, study funding, and trains every 30 minutes on the Isle of Wight from next month, Marsh Barton, Reading Green Park and Manajana Parkway on the Severn Beach line?  How about through trains to Trowbridge and Bradford-on-Avon from London in 2022?


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 18, 2021, 14:59:48
Further to the MRH stuff (Bordesley Chord) I referred to here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5138.msg314794#msg314794), there's more here (https://dft-newsroom.prgloo.com/news/integrated-rail-plan-biggest-ever-public-investment-in-britains-rail-network-will-deliver-faster-more-frequent-and-more-reliable-journeys-across-north-and-midlands):

Quote
The Midlands Rail Hub will allow seamless interchange at Birmingham between HS2 and long-distance services from South Wales and the South West, reducing Bristol- Manchester journey time by at least an hour.

Welcome thought the change from New St to Moor St might be, isn't it a bit of a stretch to call the interchange 'seamless'? https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuppVWzK1bCNdFm9



Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Sulis John on November 18, 2021, 15:21:23
"So in total, this package is 110 miles of new high-speed line. All of it in the Midlands and the North. It is 180 miles of newly-electrified line. All of it in the Midlands and North."

To be fair - this is the "Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands". I'm not sure where the southern boundary of "Midlands" is, but wherever it is, this wouldn't be the right document for anything south of it. Question is - where is the "Integrated Rail Plan for the South and West"?


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: infoman on November 18, 2021, 16:53:29
and still no mention of ticket gates being installed at Sheffield.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: grahame on November 18, 2021, 17:03:14
Question is - where is the "Integrated Rail Plan for the South and West"?

Yep!


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: TonyN on November 18, 2021, 17:37:39
Quote
Question is - where is the "Integrated Rail Plan for the South and West"?

The treasury kept it they where short of loo paper.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 18, 2021, 18:08:56
What's left after it's been used as a substitute for loo paper is buried in a filing cabinet in a locked basement behind a sign saying beware of the leopard!..


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: broadgage on November 18, 2021, 19:47:58
Important features of an "integrated rail plan" include.

1) Partial electrification, give up part way through due to escalating costs and disruption. Call for research into batteries and hydrogen.

2) Shorter trains. Innovative no doubt, flexible perhaps, world beating of course, purpose designed naturally. Still shorter.

3) A new centralised signaling system that is less reliable than that it replaces.

Exploding pigeons are an optional extra.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Surrey 455 on November 18, 2021, 20:21:49
Welcome thought the change from New St to Moor St might be, isn't it a bit of a stretch to call the interchange 'seamless'? https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuppVWzK1bCNdFm9


I haven't read all the info yet. Are you sure that the interchange is between Moor St and New St, because that's not what your map says.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: ellendune on November 18, 2021, 21:28:29
What kind of electrification between Leeds and Manchester has a gap between Huddersfield and Staybridge?  Or have I missed something. 


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: JayMac on November 18, 2021, 22:54:27
What's left after it's been used as a substitute for loo paper is buried in a filing cabinet in a locked basement behind a sign saying beware of the leopard!..

Is Mr A. Dent's house in the way of HS2?  ;D


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Western Pathfinder on November 18, 2021, 23:34:01
Not any more by the looks of things.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: infoman on November 19, 2021, 06:22:27
BBC breakfast news reporting LIVE from Sheffield on Friday 19 november


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: ellendune on November 19, 2021, 08:20:47
Richard Bowker pointed out on R4 Today that one of the reasons for cutting the Eastern Leg stated in the document was that it would cause disruption to the motorway system as it crossed it something like 13 times.  Yet he pointed out all these local improvements will mean massive disruption to rail passengers for years.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Lee on November 19, 2021, 09:08:16
Richard Bowker pointed out on R4 Today that one of the reasons for cutting the Eastern Leg stated in the document was that it would cause disruption to the motorway system as it crossed it something like 13 times.  Yet he pointed out all these local improvements will mean massive disruption to rail passengers for years.

I am afraid you lost me at "Richard Bowker".


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 19, 2021, 12:14:33
Welcome thought the change from New St to Moor St might be, isn't it a bit of a stretch to call the interchange 'seamless'? https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuppVWzK1bCNdFm9


I haven't read all the info yet. Are you sure that the interchange is between Moor St and New St, because that's not what your map says.

The interchange will be Moor St to Curzon St, as the map suggests. The arrival point for trains from Bristol and Cardiff will change from New St to Moor St. So changing the station will make it easier to change trains. However the interchange between Moor St and Curzon St will involve leaving one station and crossing a road to get to the other, so it isn't what I would call seamless.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: ellendune on November 19, 2021, 12:52:50
Richard Bowker pointed out on R4 Today that one of the reasons for cutting the Eastern Leg stated in the document was that it would cause disruption to the motorway system as it crossed it something like 13 times.  Yet he pointed out all these local improvements will mean massive disruption to rail passengers for years.

I am afraid you lost me at "Richard Bowker".

He was criticising the government. 


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: eightonedee on November 19, 2021, 13:29:58
.... and making the point that by "upgrading existing routes", the users of these lines would suffer years of disruption that will further discourage increased use of trains in the north.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Lee on November 19, 2021, 14:21:04
Richard Bowker pointed out on R4 Today that one of the reasons for cutting the Eastern Leg stated in the document was that it would cause disruption to the motorway system as it crossed it something like 13 times.  Yet he pointed out all these local improvements will mean massive disruption to rail passengers for years.

I am afraid you lost me at "Richard Bowker".

He was criticising the government. 

.... and making the point that by "upgrading existing routes", the users of these lines would suffer years of disruption that will further discourage increased use of trains in the north.

That's as maybe - but I'm afraid that for me personally, there are just certain people who I would prefer stayed in the sunset once they had walked off into it.

In any case, for an ex-SRA chief with his track record - which included a proposal for mass closures and service withdrawals in the North - to be criticising anyone on this subject is laughable in the extreme.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 19, 2021, 14:57:04
I know it is all part of living, as we do, in a healthy flourishing democracy, but I do find it makes me a bit queasy watching people seek political advantage rather than just sticking to their guns and standing up for what they believe in - even if I don't agree with them.

According to the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-59309639):

Quote
Labour is committed to the full HS2 proposals and Northern Powerhouse rail, Sir Keir Starmer has said.

After the government announced its Integrated Rail Plan, the Labour leader said the scrapped sections were in his party's last manifesto and "that is our commitment" going forward.

Starmer was absent for the last two votes on HS2 in Jan 2018 and July 2019, but in March 2016 he was one of just 42 MPs who voted against the High Speed Rail (London — West Midlands) Bill. 


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 19, 2021, 15:44:05
I agree with you but it is possible for people to change their views. Not only possible but good and healthy, to reconsider and change your position in response to changing evidence and/or circumstance. I don't know if that's necessarily what Starmer has done in this case.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 19, 2021, 16:32:38
I agree with you but it is possible for people to change their views. Not only possible but good and healthy, to reconsider and change your position in response to changing evidence and/or circumstance. I don't know if that's necessarily what Starmer has done in this case.

I think you'll find it's political opportunism, not least because many of the constituencies affected are those which Labour desperately need to win back if they're to have any chance of winning the next election.

.........all change at Damascus Parkway?


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: TonyN on November 19, 2021, 16:55:21
This sums it up quite nicely.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peter-brookes-times-cartoon-november-19-2021-j9h7khmtl (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/peter-brookes-times-cartoon-november-19-2021-j9h7khmtl)


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: didcotdean on November 19, 2021, 17:14:17
Welcome thought the change from New St to Moor St might be, isn't it a bit of a stretch to call the interchange 'seamless'? https://goo.gl/maps/ZUuppVWzK1bCNdFm9


I haven't read all the info yet. Are you sure that the interchange is between Moor St and New St, because that's not what your map says.


The interchange will be Moor St to Curzon St, as the map suggests. The arrival point for trains from Bristol and Cardiff will change from New St to Moor St. So changing the station will make it easier to change trains. However the interchange between Moor St and Curzon St will involve leaving one station and crossing a road to get to the other, so it isn't what I would call seamless.
From the conceptual design of the improvements to Moor Street Station there is supposed to be a footbridge from the transfer deck that crosses over to the plaza in front of one end of Curzon Street. Although it is shown without a roof.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: ellendune on November 19, 2021, 17:39:23
I know it is all part of living, as we do, in a healthy flourishing democracy, but I do find it makes me a bit queasy watching people seek political advantage rather than just sticking to their guns and standing up for what they believe in - even if I don't agree with them.

According to the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-59309639):

Quote
Labour is committed to the full HS2 proposals and Northern Powerhouse rail, Sir Keir Starmer has said.

After the government announced its Integrated Rail Plan, the Labour leader said the scrapped sections were in his party's last manifesto and "that is our commitment" going forward.

Starmer was absent for the last two votes on HS2 in Jan 2018 and July 2019, but in March 2016 he was one of just 42 MPs who voted against the High Speed Rail (London — West Midlands) Bill. 

That would be because he is the MP for Euston Station and quite alot of his constituents don't like the disruption caused by rebuilding Euston station and HS2 into it.  He is doing his job and representing his constituents. 


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 19, 2021, 17:42:10
I know it is all part of living, as we do, in a healthy flourishing democracy, but I do find it makes me a bit queasy watching people seek political advantage rather than just sticking to their guns and standing up for what they believe in - even if I don't agree with them.

According to the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-59309639):

Quote
Labour is committed to the full HS2 proposals and Northern Powerhouse rail, Sir Keir Starmer has said.

After the government announced its Integrated Rail Plan, the Labour leader said the scrapped sections were in his party's last manifesto and "that is our commitment" going forward.

Starmer was absent for the last two votes on HS2 in Jan 2018 and July 2019, but in March 2016 he was one of just 42 MPs who voted against the High Speed Rail (London — West Midlands) Bill. 

That would be because he is the MP for Euston Station and quite alot of his constituents don't like the disruption caused by rebuilding Euston station and HS2 into it.  He is doing his job and representing his constituents. 

Odd that he didn't mention that this morning when he was being asked on the BBC about his Damascene conversion to the HS2 cause?

I'm sure it's entirely coincidental.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: ellendune on November 19, 2021, 18:00:23
Starmer was absent for the last two votes on HS2 in Jan 2018 and July 2019, but in March 2016 he was one of just 42 MPs who voted against the High Speed Rail (London — West Midlands) Bill. 

That would be because he is the MP for Euston Station and quite alot of his constituents don't like the disruption caused by rebuilding Euston station and HS2 into it.  He is doing his job and representing his constituents. 

Odd that he didn't mention that this morning when he was being asked on the BBC about his Damascene conversion to the HS2 cause?

I'm sure it's entirely coincidental.

The northern bits do not have a lot of impact on his constituency.  It is quite reasonable to support the line in principle while opposing its impact on the area around Euston Station.  I assume he would have been quite supportive of stopping it at Old Oak Common for example. 


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: stuving on November 19, 2021, 18:05:36
Starmer was absent for the last two votes on HS2 in Jan 2018 and July 2019, but in March 2016 he was one of just 42 MPs who voted against the High Speed Rail (London — West Midlands) Bill. 

That would be because he is the MP for Euston Station and quite alot of his constituents don't like the disruption caused by rebuilding Euston station and HS2 into it.  He is doing his job and representing his constituents. 

Odd that he didn't mention that this morning when he was being asked on the BBC about his Damascene conversion to the HS2 cause?

I'm sure it's entirely coincidental.

The northern bits do not have a lot of impact on his constituency.  It is quite reasonable to support the line in principle while opposing its impact on the area around Euston Station.  I assume he would have been quite supportive of stopping it at Old Oak Common for example. 

Indeed - and he did say this in his BBC interview (despite TaplowGreen missing it). Whether that justifies voting against the bill is moot; it was not going to get changed by that stage so the vote was pointless - but also no more than a gesture as only 28 MPs voted against.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 19, 2021, 18:12:44
A confused politician called Keir,
suddenly felt very queer.
he'd campaigned (it is true)
against HS2
yet now it's a marv'lous idea?!?!


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Rhydgaled on November 22, 2021, 21:23:39
The arrival point for trains from Bristol and Cardiff will change from New St to Moor St.
Will it? I thought the plan was for trains from Hereford/Malvern/Worcester, and possibly Stansted/Leicester, to switch from New Street to Moor Street, since these (as far as I know) terminate in Birmingham. The trains from Cardiff and Bristol continue to Nottingham/Manchester/Edinburgh and diverting to Moor Street would appear to render the trains unable to continue to Manchester (as far as I know the only one that requires a reversal at New Street currently) and would require a reversal (and associated time penalty) for the others.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 23, 2021, 10:30:00
The arrival point for trains from Bristol and Cardiff will change from New St to Moor St.
Will it? I thought the plan was for trains from Hereford/Malvern/Worcester, and possibly Stansted/Leicester, to switch from New Street to Moor Street, since these (as far as I know) terminate in Birmingham. The trains from Cardiff and Bristol continue to Nottingham/Manchester/Edinburgh and diverting to Moor Street would appear to render the trains unable to continue to Manchester (as far as I know the only one that requires a reversal at New Street currently) and would require a reversal (and associated time penalty) for the others.

Interesting question. How many of these through journeys will be better-served in future by changing to HS2 at Birmingham?


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 23, 2021, 11:50:48
There currently are no through trains from Bristol to Manchester.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Timmer on November 23, 2021, 17:30:28
There currently are no through trains from Bristol to Manchester.
With very little excuse for not running these services now.


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Lee on November 25, 2021, 17:07:35
From Passenger Transport: (http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2021/11/ministers-strip-tfn-of-responsibility-for-npr/)

Quote from: Passenger Transport
Ministers strip TfN of responsibility for NPR

In a move branded ‘inconsistent with the government’s devolution agenda’, Transport for the North will no longer be paid to develop East-West links

Ministers have removed funding and powers from Transport for the North after it dismissed the government’s Integrated Rail Plan for the North and the Midlands as “woefully inadequate”.

TfN was established in 2015 to advise the government on the North of England’s transport needs. However, on the day of the IRP announcement, a senior official from the Department for Transport is reported to have written to TfN’s chief executive, Martin Tugwell, saying that it would stop paying the statutory body to develop the Northern Powerhouse Rail project.

This change came after TfN had issued a statement that criticised the IRP. Louise Gittins, interim chair of TfN, said: “Leaders from across the North and from across the party political divide came together to ask for a network that would upgrade the North for this century and in line with the rest of the country. Our statutory advice asked for an over £40bn network but the government has decided to provide even less than half of that.”

Gittens continued: “If we truly want to level up the country we don’t need words and promises. We need commitment.”

Responding to TfN’s loss of powers, former transport minister Norman Baker told Passenger Transport: “It’s surprising and looks a tad vindictive. Government whether local or national needs to be able to express its views honestly. This decision is inconsistent with the government’s devolution agenda and ultimately unhelpful. We need all sides to work together constructively for what in most cases are common goals.”


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: rogerw on November 25, 2021, 17:24:09
Sour grapes?


Title: Re: Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands
Post by: Noggin on December 10, 2021, 14:31:06
The arrival point for trains from Bristol and Cardiff will change from New St to Moor St.
Will it? I thought the plan was for trains from Hereford/Malvern/Worcester, and possibly Stansted/Leicester, to switch from New Street to Moor Street, since these (as far as I know) terminate in Birmingham. The trains from Cardiff and Bristol continue to Nottingham/Manchester/Edinburgh and diverting to Moor Street would appear to render the trains unable to continue to Manchester (as far as I know the only one that requires a reversal at New Street currently) and would require a reversal (and associated time penalty) for the others.

Not quite - AFAIK the trains to Moor Street would be a new service in addition to Cross Country, possibly run by TfWM, thought that wasn't 100% clear, I can't remember the route, though I seem to recall that they would most likely run alternate hours to Cardiff or Bristol rather than splitting/joining en-route. 



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