Great Western Coffee Shop

I know this is:

(a) A little off topic for a FGW board and

(b) Perhaps a little bit similar to a previous post,

but when are the XC HSTs going to be ready? One source says "in time for the December timetable," another says "in time for the spring."

What about the holiday HSTs, which/whose HST sets are these going to be using?

And, as there will be a trolley station in each coach, I take it that the 8 coaches do not consist of a buffet car.

The source that talked about the trolley also said that FGW was going to switich to trolleys! >:( Surely this can't be true after what happened?

Many thanks,

Btline

HSTs are supposedly starting in the timetable change to allow for additional capacity.

The holiday HSTs IIRC I believe are 2 NXEC sets and 2 XC sets (someone can probably correct me).

A buffet car will be in operation on the holiday HSTs.

> To provide more seats, especially during busy periods on Thursdays,
> Fridays and Mondays, CrossCountry is returning five High Speed Trains to
> its routes. In tandem with the Voyager refresh programme, which will see
> an extra 842 seats across the fleet and an increase in luggage space, the
> HSTs will provide a timely boost to capacity. Once refurbished each set,
> formed 2+8, will offer 550 seats and ample luggage space and be deployed
> on Edinburgh-Plymouth services. This in turn will allow some
> Voyager-operated services to run as twin sets once their refurbishment is
> complete, and will help alleviate crowding on some XC services. The first
> refurbished power cars are due to enter service in July, followed by the
> first complete set in September.
>
> The first non-refurbished XC HSTs will enter service on Saturday 17 May on
> the 0850 Edinburgh-Penzance, and will also be used on Sundays on the same
> service and the 1025 Plymouth-Glasgow. From Monday 19 May they will be
> used on selected weekday services to make more seats available on the
> following services:
>
> Mondays 0830 Penzance-Dundee;
> Thursdays 0641 Dunbar-Glasgow,
> 0900 Glasgow-Penzance;
> Fridays 0830 Penzance-Dundee,
> 1205 Edinburgh-Plymouth.
>
> HSTs will also be used on the Summer Saturday services on 24 and 31 May
> and from 5 July through to 6 September. The four diagrams will be covered
> by a combination of XC and National Express East Coast HSTs. The two XC
> sets will be formed 2+7, with NXEC providing two 2+9 sets. ^On hire to
> CrossCountry^ labels will be displayed in the NXEC sets. It is intended
> that each train will leave Birmingham with the TGS, the part of the train
> providing luggage storage, leading. There will be two additional members
> of staff at Newquay to help with the turnaround and loading. There will
> also be one additional member of staff on board to assist with luggage
> management for each Newquay starter. The other services will have an
> additional crew member between Bristol and Plymouth. Prior to
> refurbishment, the XC HST services will have at-seat trolley catering,
> with up to three catering staff on board over the core routes. The buffets
> on the NXEC sets will be in use.
>
> The two XC sets will be used on the 0941 Newcastle-Newquay, 1955
> Newquay-Plymouth, 0653 Plymouth-Newquay and the 0940 Newquay-Newcastle
> services.
>
> The NXEC sets will be used on the 0735 Bristol-Paignton, 1032
> Paignton-Newcastle, 0724 Manchester-Newquay and the 1522 return.
>
> All trains operate under CrossCountry^s safety case and track access
> agreement, staffed by CrossCountry traincrew. Travelling fitters will be
> on board most services to rectify any problems which may arise. A
> refurbishment programme is under way to completely overhaul the HST power
> cars and carriages. The power cars are being fitted with new MTU engines,
> and all five trainsets will be painted in the distinctive CrossCountry
> livery. Three of the sets are being worked on now, with the other two
> being used on Summer Saturday services. As the refurbished sets enter
> service the two non-refurbished sets will go into works for a complete
> overhaul. As part of the overhaul the HSTs will be fitted with at-seat
> power points for mobile phones and laptops. CrossCountry is working with
> company council and RSM coaches to develop the at-seat service and design
> work on the new catering area is now at an advanced stage.
>
> From the December 2008 timetable change it is planned to use the newly
> refurbished XC HSTs on the following services:
>
> 0611 Leeds-Plymouth,
> 1225 Plymouth-Glasgow,
> 0638 Dundee-Plymouth,
> 1725 Plymouth-Leeds,
> 0628 Derby-Plymouth,
> 1125 Plymouth-Dundee,
> 0610 Edinburgh-Plymouth,
> 1525 Plymouth-York.

The un refurbished XC HST's should be Midland Mainline sets with Valenta engines.

I belive the correct term is "Hellfire"?

No, it's absolutely dreadful. ;)

With the failure of 43166 (Beast!) a few weeks back on GC, this summer might be interesting. Drags anyone  :D

Bugger off did 166 expire?!?!?!

Did they give it a new paintjob then?

http://ruston165.fotopic.net/p49773762.html

Eeeeek

turbo blower failiure throwing all oil out.

our power cars were always doing it when the old paxmans were still fitted.

not a major job to change couple of days out of service providing parts are available.

Thanks for all this! Everything is cleared up.

One thing - what will be catering after all the reburbs come in? You talk about a "new catering area" above.

Does anybody know anything about the Voyager refurb? Are they ripping out the shop/toilets or not (apparently they have been told not to by the leasing company, and the work would be too difficult)? I find it quite difficult to imagine a Voyager with lots more seats and lots more luggage space (perhaps less legroom and less tables)!

Surely if they rip out the toilet and shop as discussed, the seats in those positions will not have any windows?

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/News%20April%202008/140408_Voyager.html The article here seems to suggest Bombardier will carry out the Voyager changes??

Are the HSTs getting a voyager style refurb do we think??

Will also be nice to see the 170s without the old MMs Bar in the, which takes up half a carraige, and can now be replaced with seating! 

The shop/toilets would be the train's luggage space. Then you can rip out all luggage racks in the carriages and cram them full of seats.

i heard the "REFRESH" on the voyagers is just that a bit of vinyl on exterior,new seat covers and carpets and aclean of interior panelling.
they are not allowed to remove the shop the lease company and atoc opposed it for some reason.plus i dont suppose passenger groups liked the idea of no shop on trains that go from the south west to scotland or north east in one hit.
one thing they could remove on "REFRESH" is the smell of sh1t in every carriage it is rather offensive when you are stuck on the damn things for more than 30 seconds!

Maybe they will have to try and obtain the use of at least one more additional HST set then if they want to achieve the increase in Seating as promised by their franchise agreement, to allow more double voyagers???    Maybe GC sets if things change for them???

Why did they report that Bombardier had now planned to complete the work, if the leasing company had declined it?  Surely the leasing company have had sufficient time to oppose this, since the franchise agreement was made?

New seat covers will be a bonus, as some are starting to look a bit shabby now. 

Bombardier have supposedly forbidden Cross Country to remove the shop, unless they put it back in at the end of the lease/franchise.

Thats stupid though, as surely the future operator of XC will require the same if not more seating space, so putting the shop back will not really be the best option? 

What I believe is happening:

current shop is being replaced for bicycle and luggage space, meanwhile the bike spaces in the quiet carriage are to house a new catering base.

As  Voyagers were poorly designed, I would hope that the seats are re-done. They are very uncomfortable (obviously designed in a rush on the cheap).

Interesting idea. Out of interest, does anybody know how many more Class 43 and mark 3s there are left?

I actually quite like Voyager compared to Richmond or Chapman seats.

There are exactly 0 Class 43's left.

If XC were to take on say GCs HSTs, do they feature the same number of carrages?  Anything less, and they wouldn't offer much of an increase over the Voyagers! 

It is also the increase in stock that allows for double workings.

I think GC have 8/9 carriages.

Not per train!

Its 6 per train I think

:o That's low. >:(

A waste of Class 43s? ??? Perhaps the 180s will fill the gap!

Shame they didn't build more 180s, everyone wants them. Must be the second most popular form of stock! ;D

Its a shame they didnt build more class 43s too!! 

Would the GC HSTs be reliable though for XC, as GC don't seem to have had much luck??  More double voyagers would also be an added bonus.

Then maybe 180s to replace the 2 car 170s...... oks, now I am definetly dreaming!!

If EMT receive the additional 3 Pionners / Meridians from Hull Trains, wouldnt that free up an additional HST set?

Yes, its going to FGW

Going to FGW who are then going to loose 3 180s.

A loss, in my opinion, esp when the HSTs keep failing and the Cotswold Line gets a Thames Turbo!

Surely 3 meridians will release more than one HST?

Need the others to provide the new London - Corby service from Dec 08.

Earlier in this post, a list of XC services "hoped" to be run by HSTs was listed.


I take it this is still on.

What will happen to seat reservations? Will they assume the worst?

Does anyone know whether double Voyagers will start working?

Thanks,

Btline

I think the introduction of the HST's enables Voyagers to be released for the various changes to be made (I will resist on calling them improvements.)
 
As an aside, as built the 4 car Voyagers had 26 first and 160 standard seats. Compare that to the Cl 159 which in 3 coaches manages to have 24 first and 172 standard, and with very little different in terms of passenger amenity and space. This inefficiency was due to
a) the crash resistant front ends required for running above 100mph (and which are required on half the coaches due to the short length of the train)
b) the "shop" which took up far too much space
c) 3 accessible toilets, when only 1 is required.
A triumph of Virgin marketing, over good old practical railway operation.
Add to that the smell and no wonder they are so unpopular.

 

I went on one Saturday from Bristol TM to Cheltenham Spa. I must say, it was one of the best train rides I've had this year. Extremely comfortable, spacious, lovely seats and lighting, nice big clean windows, quiet, stable, no awful smells (!!) ...the list goes on. I thoroughly enjoyed that journey and it kickstarted a brilliant weekend.

What services are the HSTs running on at present?  Hope to use one of these sometime soon!!

I presume some wil run to taunton?

Try www.tauntontrains.co.uk (http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk)  they have a list of timings for Taunton on the news page.  :)

Today there was a Double Voyager travelling North through Devon late-afternoon.

Those XC/NE HSTs make some noise!!

Presumably it still had at least one of the lovely Paxman Valenta's which we no longer have. Environmentally unfriendly but love the whine.

Screw the environment:  Was a beautiful sight to see all those fumes flying into the air...  ;D

I think all day hearing the loud whine may deafen me a little!

My SDA colleague was under the impression that the National Express HSTs had been re-engined, but obviously this is not the case.

the ones xc have aquired all have valenta's still they will be fully refurbed and have mtu's in by december.

i also think all class 43's in country will be mtu at some point,it is just a matter of being in a q and waiting for brush traction to fit them in.

spares for paxman engines are like rocking horse sh1t now,so if one fails they can be out of traffic for ages.

No, East Midlands Trains are fitting all their fleet (25 power cars) with Paxman VP185s - an updated Valenta - now supplied by MAN of Germany, which provides full support for the engines from a factory at Colchester. Brush are fitting new cooler groups and electronics to the EMT fleet.

EMT is using several rebuilt VP185s which were removed from FGW power cars when they got MTUs fitted.

Are, but will these Paxman clones sound the same?

No... they're not Valentas! :p

yest they do sound very similar and chuck out as  much smoke as valenta's.

when the tender went out for power car re-engineering project fgw turned down the vp185 even though it was cheaper than mtu because they were crap,regularly suffered low power and vibrations.

so dont expect the x/c hst's to be more reliable,in my opinion mtu is the best option for class 43's

Well, the 1745 from St Davids to Penzance was an ex MML HST - XC service.

There was no buffet carriage - just two trolleys - and listening to the staff, it had been a bit of a trial.

Warm beer, cold tea, trolley hitting passengers - trolley slowing boarding and alighting as it was in the way.

I wasn't impressed. Oh, and it was un-refurbished obviously - FGW refresh is 1000 times better than the old stuff that was there. Fixed arm rest, yellow lights, seats with no support, no leg room at tables....

The trolley did seem well used - but it also seemed there had been rather a lot of complaints. WOuld hate to see it try and run in a morning or on a really busy service!

So didn't XC take on enough buffet cars for these HSTs which they have taken on?

I cant wait to see the refurbished HSTs.  They should be really smart, and a goo alternative to a voyager!

They don't have any buffets. Trolley, as with the vomits is the plan.

Surely if the drinks are coming through cold, this cant continue, and they will have to ook at a different way of doing thinge to the trolleys?

I thought they had taken on some buffet cars?  Maybe with thee longer car trains, they will consider taking on some of the currently disused buffet cars?

This experiment could bring about the whole end of the removal of the voyagers onboard shops!

I spoke to a friend of mine, who is a RSM on the XC trains. She was on one of the first RSM's to do from plymouth. She doesn't like the trolleys!

I think one of the services is 10:25 up from plymouth on a monday

I personnaly would have buffet cars on the HST sets, as they are just so long, they need them!!  And the extra seats on those buffet cars would add even more capacity!

I still prefer the voyager's, but if the XC HST's had the buffet cars in, it would make them nicer

What did happen? I know there was an accident with a trolley, but not what actually happened.

I heard that:

Some hot coffee was spilt on a man as a trolley collapsed.

Health and safety immediately banned them.

FGW have now sorted it out with H&S.

Trolleys are back on the trains.

That is the impression I have got. I would like to know a more accurate version!

South West Trains have some sort of trolley's that get loaded on for St Davids-Waterloo service, that from what I have seen have some sort of boiler (I think), and that seems to work for them.

I seriously doubt the trolley idea is going to work for FGW unless it is used where appropriate.

SWT don't really have the space for a full buffet and so a trolley has to suffice on their 3 coach units.

I'm informed by an informant by an informant by an informant ... by an informant ... that all buffet coaches that FGW will be refurbished by December and put back into service.

i was told that a handful of buffets are being removed to allow 2+7 running with the use of 2 trolleys that have now been modified to pass h&s.
i was also told 1 will remain spare while the others could get converted to standard carriages should the 2+7 be a success?
but i do stand to be corrected should i have been given dodgy info.

I have also heard from a good source that all buffets are being retained.

I can confirm that I have seen 2 refurbished/re-engined XC powercars in use this weekend at the rear of a couple of HST sets.  They look quite smart and obviously much more quiet/cleaner like FGW's, with the LED lights at the back again ala FGW.

On a side-note a few FGW HST sets could do with a run through a 'train-wash' or something because they are getting dirty!

I take it that XC still arent going back on the buffet car decision? 

I still think it would be a fantastic way to add more seating to busy units! 

I can confirm that I have seen 2 refurbished/re-engined XC powercars in use this weekend at the rear of a couple of HST sets.  They look quite smart and obviously much more quiet/cleaner like FGW's, with the LED lights at the back again ala FGW.
[/quote]

Forget which evening last week but a very late running refurb passed through Filton quickly followed by the on time Plymouth service, so they are out and about now.

if only they had more carrages... no need to run 2 sets together no need to rip units apart and get rid of the shop... there is something to be said for locos

I've heard of plans to do a smaller buffet, swap it round, and do the seating as standard, which would be the best option really, so hope what I heard is correct.

:)

*FGW btw

Ollie, that rumour has also made its way down to the South West too  ;)

I'm sure that was suggested on the Coffee Shop sometime ago (maybe not the smaller buffet, but flipping the buffet around and installing standard class seats. Maybe have half a coach fully tabled as well, leave unreserved (or restrict reservations to groups of 3 or more in that coach if feasible) and have signs saying "these seats are served for groups of 3 or more"   

Actually, having thought about it again, I thought it was XC that was going to do a mini-buffet/standard class seating, and FGW were just leaving as was.

I think I might have it all written down somewhere, will have to see if I can find it =]

Are there enough bufet cars around to do this though?  I thought all of the MK3 HST Buffets were going to FGW, even even then there wasn't enough for them?

Or can they make absorb the cost of converting a MK3 Coaching stock buffet?

WOuld definitely be a way of adding even more seats to those sets!

Over the weekend one of the refurbed National Express HSTs on loan to XC was in operation.

It looked quite smart, although rather white/grey/boring colours, seats looked the same style as Voyagers - although no idea how they actually felt in comparison.  I liked the extra touches on the door window that said.  "Welcome to NEx.  Please wait for the yellow light before attempting to open the door/yank the handle off" (or something like that  ;D)

Sorry to drag this thread up again. Does anyone know which trains from Birmingham - Durham and Durham - Birmingham are run by XC HSTs on weekdays?

Thanks in advance,

Btline :)

Er.. can you work it out from this BT...best I can I find at the mo? ;)

http://www.icrs.org.uk/Site/Rolling%20Stock/crosscountry_hst.htm

Thanks! :P

For diagrams for all sorts of workings, written in plainer English than that other suggestion, see this site http://www.thejunction.org.uk (http://www.thejunction.org.uk)/ and click on the Diagrams link at the top of the page. The XC HSTs ones are pretty near the top of the list and were up-to-date in May, so can't imagine they will have altered since.

All the XC HST services run through FGW territory, and the appropriate FGW timetable tells you which ones are HSTs, so if you compare the FGW and XC timetables you can work it out...

But if you want to go Birmingham > Durham > Birmingham as posted, you can't do it in one day, because the HSTs all go from various points North to  Plymouth then return North in the afternoon...

Paul

Someone had better tell the folks at the ICRS site that the CRS code for Plymouth is PLY and not PMH, unless there's been a dramatic change if plan I'm not aware of and Portsmouth Harbour is now served by XC HSTs (which if I recall correctly from an earlier thread, don't all have the requisite bogie types to run over the 3rd rail).

I'll put my anorak away at this point.

Well, as I was tripped up on my spelling, and blatant misuse of an apostrophe, recently, I'll just shrug myself into that anorak, and also point out the following:

DUN is Dunbar, not Dundee - that's DEE;

MAP doesn't exist - Manchester Piccadilly is MAN;

PTN is Portadown, not Paignton - that's PGN.

C.  ;) :D ;D

Thanks. :) I do get lost in the hyrogliphics of trains sometimes. ::)

I like to see a bit of prose...


Thanks, that's useful, as FGW put the New Street arrival time on. I wouldn't do Durham and back in a day. Not enough time to do the city justice! (which is the primary reason for my trip)