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In these current times of us not being able to trust what we are told - is the engineering work convenient excuse to save running the sleeper on quieter nights?

The London-bound train passes Dawlish at 10 minutes past midnight
Would a 30 minute earlier departure from Penzance - 20:45 rather than 21:15 and 22:45 rather than 23:15 from Plymouth really make a difference to people?  That would mean it was NOT the last train of the day through Dawlish. Personal sleeper over the years would have welcomed not having to wait around until some late hour.

The Penzance-bound train passes Dawlish at 10 minutes to five in the morning
Would an arrive at Plymouth at 06:30, and Penzance at 08:45, ruin the service? That would put it past Dawlish about an hour later, well after the local service has started.

Even if the last and first local trains are buses, how bad would an 8 p.m. sleeper from Penzance, 10 p.m. from Plymouth, and an 07:30 arrival into Plymouth, 09:30 into Penzance be?

A hell of a time to reach PAD though….no thanks

Ah - but das thumbtwiddlin at Reading which the sleeper already does could be extended, surely, with no change to Paddington arrival time.

Just to note the sleeper only leaves at 21:15 on a Sunday - it is 21:45 the rest of the time.   Leaving an hour earlier but aiming for a same time arrival in London might have an effect on staff hours.

This looks like another attempt at closure by stealth, or if closure cant be achieved at least an attempt to obtain a larger subsidy to keep the service running.

It seems that the sleeper COULD run during the engineering work with relatively minor alterations to the timings, but why bother ? Simpler to just cancel and hope that passengers fly or drive instead, don't worry about the climate emergency that is now last years news.

has the survey been done yet to show that most passengers don't use the sleeper, and that those do would find a not sleeper preferable.

No it doesn’t!

I really find this partial suspension illogical, and as a regular sleeper user very very annoying. It would not be a big deal to run a bit earlier, I doubt that may  Cornish sleeper passengers would object to a slightly earlier departure,  or indeed for the down service a slightly later arrival.

As Bobm said, it might well be to do with staffing hours.  I believe they are stretched to near maximum already for the sleeper crews.

At the risk of making a very unpopular suggestion - on these middle-of-the-week days, could the sleeper start from / end at Reading, with passengers able to join early / leave late there rather like as at Paddington, and connect into/outof London on a train to suit there journey.  It's not like having to change in the middle of the night.

The staffing hours might be extended even further if you did that, depending on where the crews were based.

On reflection, yes, I guess so.  I was thinking of the train hours, but of course the crews aren't necessarily based in the Reading Traincare Depot

A move to a later arrival in Plymouth Westbound would make it a far more attractive proposition to those visiting the largest & most strategically significant City in the South West.

Just now its arrival is far too early.

That make a lot of sense, Plymouth lost out when they stopped detaching one of the sleeper coaches there to allow for a civilised getting up time.The problem would then be maintaining he connection with the Scillonian at Penzance.

Interesting - how much traffic comes off the sleeper to the Scillies (and vice versa?)   I do know that the small islands off Mallaig bring a surprising number of connecting passengers to and from the train, and suspect there could be a similarity.

I cant give the exact numbers but anecdotaly its the main way for Scillies residents to go up to London .

A population of 2,280 ... if each travels to London and back once a year ... I make that between 8 and 10 passengers on each sleeper journey, and a small by steady and significant traffic.   But how many trips does the average Scicillonian make to London each year?   

Having said which, that's a lot more population that those who are on the small islands off Mallaig - Canna 6; Eigg 87; Muck 38; Rum 22. Add Inverie and perhaps other scattered hamlets on Knoydart that have no road access - 70?  And we end up silly off sleeper topic!

This link provides fuller information

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/gwr-sleeper-service-set-to-be-impacted-for-eight-weeks-while-work-to-protect-vital-rail-link-to-south-west-continues-2

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT and, in the future GBR, to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

There is likely to be some discussion in various places in the future, and it may be prudent to ensure those places are well informed ahead of time how important to the places served, loved, and supported the service is.  The issues you raised can be addressed but I will let others comment how rather than start hares running.

has anyone suggested
gwr-sleeper-to-be-run-via-tavistock-for-eight-weeks-while-work-to-protect-important-rail-link-to-south-west-continues-3 for next year?

Notwithstanding the point about the Scillonian (which I imagine is marginal), to make it (more) viable, especially outside of the holiday season, it needs to be marketed more as a business option (again, much harder now that we're in the World of hybrid working with much less business travel), so basically arrival times into cities like Plymouth at a realistic hour (0800?) to make a day's business possible and a better option than travelling the previous day and staying in a hotel  - not 0520 which really is no use to anyone.

Alternatively, go back to detaching a carriage at Plymouth if it has to be an ungodly hour

If that was achievable, even an old cynic like me might give it a go!  :)

II is right about it being an easy target - it ticks most of those boxes - whimsy and nostalgia won't sustain the subsidy forever, it needs to demonstrate its future worth and that, I'm afraid, probably means it being at least less reliant on massive subsidies to survive.

It's going to be "reduced" for eight weeks - I don't hear too many people protesting which perhaps tells a tale but I'm happy to be corrected if there are campaigns I'm not aware of?

Just a note about the Scillonian - it doesn't sail in the winter.

You wont hear "too many people complaining" because only relatively small numbers use the sleeper. If compared to busy daytime trains with hundreds of passengers.
It is however still an important facility for those who do use it, and continued reliable provision should be a part of fulfilling stated  government aims of "leveling up" and of "improving regional connectivity" and of course encouraging "greener transport choices"

At the risk of getting myself deep in the brown stuff on "sleeper futures", I have to ask if it could run into Euston and share facilities and have the same stock as the Caledonian sleeper, and be run using the same class 73 locomotive fleet - with a view to moving the whole operation to class 88 as a future path.

I'm sure, like many other services, there's a seasonal element to the sleeper traffic, and also a cyclic element through the week and it would probably be fair to say it's at its quietest mid-week in winter (Saturday nights - probably the quietest of the whole week - don't run any more, right?

AIUI the Cally only uses 73s in Scotland once the trains have split, the long haul from Euston to Scotland is done with 92s.  I don’t think 88s are actually powerful enough off the wires, but that’s open to correction.

Coincidentally it’s been reported today that First Group have asked for proposals for a new bimode loco class to replace 68s on TPE, with an option to replace 57s on the GW sleepers:

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/01/suppliers-sought-for-new-bi-mode-locomotives-for-transpennine-express-and-great-western-railway.html?fbclid=IwAR3t-v_gNvmqq1wPz20v2PicJgbPTiFPBWe7SzRhdf_nDXMghxkln6V80Z8

The Night Riviera could certainly be pathed into Euston. Via Acton East Junction to the WCML at West London Junction (Willesden).

Whether Wembley Depot has capacity to host and service the Night Rivera as well as the Caledonian Sleepers is another matter.

Excellent news…and a positive statement that the sleeper is here to stay.

That's sort of the point I'm making - if the aspiration is that the sleeper is to play a part (albeit a small one) in "levelling  up", for important strategic cities like Plymouth, then it has to work to the timings that make it a practical option for customers, not which suit the railway.

I think it could have a future, but clearly as you've pointed out with the numbers using it at the moment, it is ripe for cutting with a Government looking to save money.

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO.  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98)

Edit to fix link.

Link not operative!
Link here to Stadler class 93 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_93_(Stadler)

Link fixed.   

There are quite a few locomotives in class 98, and their utilisation is quite low.  There might be a problem as there's quite a range of sub-types and a need for some new infrastructure along the way to handle their fuelling, servicing and cleaning, but I suspect they would generate a significant market of leisure passengers based exactly on the variety within the class.  I do appreciate that some of them - such as 98007 / 8 / 9 wouldn't be possible.

I hear across Europe a lot of previously axed sleeper services are being revived as there is an increasing market for them. People increasingly turning away from air travel for a multitude of reasons, environmental impact being one of them.
It would therefore seem against current trends if the UK was to close any of its sleeper services, although I might be comparing apples with oranges. I wonder if recent impact on domestic aviation would have affected demand for long distance rail

I would very much agree that this might be exactly the time we see a change from sleepers fading out to sleeper making a return.  And there are various suggestions I have seen, some of which make a lot of sense.

I just did some quick look-ups of potential and actual routes ...

Paris to Rome - 1400 km
London to Aberdeen - 880 km
Brussels to Madrid - 1600 km
Frankfurt to Stockolm - 1500 km
Plymouth to Inverness - 1000 km
Amsterdam to Vienna - 950 km
London to Penzance - 500 km
Hamburg to Warsaw - 850 km
Copenhagen to Ljubljana - 1400 km
Lisbon to Milan - 2000 km

and I'm noting that the European routes are typically longer (but, sure, I was a bit selective and didn't try Brussels to Amsterdam or Dublin to Belfast!)

I have used sleepers on occasion - strikes me as a very sensible way to leave home during the evening, sleep overnight and wake fresh for a day's work in Edinburgh or Motherwell.    Similarly, finish a day's work, and sleep while I travel home.

Problem is - it really hasn't worked too well for me.   

Northbound, a late afternoon / early evening train from Melksham (cannot risk the last train on a Sunday!) and then hanging around in the Sleeper Lounge at Euston.  Up at some ungodly hour and decanted onto the platform at Motherwell; connecting train to Coatbridge with a couple of hours still to kill before the place I'm working opens.

Southbound - from a 6 p.m. finish in Edinburgh, do you realise how l-o-n-g it is until the sleeper leaves. Then in London, across to Paddington and train to Chippenham where (of course) there was no connection to Melksham and the bus goes from the other side of the town; great with heavy equipment.

There may be solutions - and I do recall a much longer sleeper journey from Southern Europe up to Paris, where the arrival was at least in the light. and we had a time to have a look around before crossing over to Gare du Nord for Eurostar.

I wonder - casual speculation - if the Cally Sleeper should run to / from Stirling (I think they could find a platform) with check in any time from 18:00 at both ends of the route, on board hot food and like a proper hotel.  Rail transfer to "any connecting station in Scotland" included in the price, and perhaps a late joiner / early leaver stop at (!) Motherwell.    Similarly, the South West service, available from 18:00 and to 08:00 at both Paddington and Plymouth.

The should re-complete the triangle and bring back the Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper.

That one i.think would prove popular

This as a minimum if the Night Riviera is to remain viable - or go back to the previous arrangement whereby a carriage was detached at Plymouth Westbound allowing those on board to sleep on to a reasonably civilised hour.

I'd happily use it if I could stay on board till 0730-0800, but I'm not going to pay a premium for a service where I'm kicked off at 0520, having had to wake up some time earlier - you can hardly call that a "sleeper" service - maybe a dozer?  :)

In the meantime, far better to travel down earlier in the evening and stay in a hotel for a full night's sleep.

I'd be very interested in where and from whom the demand is going to come for a Penzance - Aberdeen sleeper service.......and of course Oooooooooooooos gonna pay for it?

West Country angloscottish sleeper = a stable 50,000 passengers per year in the last years it ran, with not a lot of promotion being done.

When buying tickets at Bath Spa, it's one of the services I've overheard more than one enquiry for from other intending travellers (along with, as recently as this year, "Can I have a single to Devizes please?")

Mark

It used to connect up at Birmingham with carriages to/from Poole IIRC?  That portion was less successful, but it is the obvious route for a new sleeper service should overnight travel popularity continue to rise.

That's really interesting - when did it last run, and why was it stopped?

If I can remember correctly, I believe it was around the time of rail privatisation in the mid nineties. It may have been stopped because it didn’t fit easily into one of the rail franchises. Scotrail taking on the London-Scotland services and GW taking the London-Cornwall service. I doubt Virgin would have been interested in operating it as part of the XC franchise.

Was there ever a Penzance to Aberdeen sleeper? The Night Westcountryman ran between Plymouth and Glasgow/Edinburgh. During some of its lifetime there was a portion to/from Poole that attached/detached at Birmingham New St.

Here are sleeper services as they were in 1989

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/zzt_1989.jpg)

Looking back to 1983 - just one page of many:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/zzt_1983.jpg)

Don't remember it as a sleeper, but I did pay off a ship in Newcastle mid evening, and caught a through train direct to Penzance, arriving around 7am'ish in the early 1970's.

........having boarded the train in the late 1960s  ;)

Looking at the timetables which Graham has supplied I note the sleeper arrival times in Plymouth from Paddington (almost the same as today), but passengers could stay on board until 0800.........the situation today doesn't feel like progress.

I wonder how the loadings in those days compare to todays?

Back in the good old days, the sleeper to Penzance ARRIVED very early in the morning at Plymouth, but a portion was detached  at Plymouth and passengers in this portion could stay in bed until a sensible hour. Much more customer friendly than the present arrangements.

Might not be allowed these days by the elfansafety though. Presumably the detached portion had no locomotive attached and therefore lacked steam or electric heat. Lighting would be limited to that available from the batteries which were HOPEFULLY better maintained on sleepers than on other stock. These days electricity is presumably also required for fire alarms, emergency call for aid systems and perhaps other purposes.

The brakes on the detached portion would be liable to "leak off" and a vehicle with a hand brake would presumably have to be included.

Re: detaching at Plymouth.
There used to be a shunting loco kept at Plymouth Station for this purpose (also handling the postal, and other movements), with a shunting person. However this came at a cost to cover both morning and evening movements. Removing the sleeper portion for Plymouth saved this cost at the expense of customer convenience. The loco would remain attached to the sleeper carriage in Platform 8.

Wasn’t it the case that had those savings not been made, the sleeper was in danger of being axed completely?

It would take a lot of extra Plymouth passengers, at a time when business travel is very suppressed, to make a viable business case for portion attaching and detaching to commence again.  As well as the costs Pb_Devon refers to, those carriages would also need to be cleaned, watered and any light maintenance dealt with whilst they were separate from the main train during the day.

Perhaps one for GBR to ponder in the future?

I thought it was a bit surprising that sleeper services were expanded so much so late - up to the 1980s - before dropping sharply for the obvious reason. But that was not just the after-effect of wartime limitations. Looking for a few quotes on the subject, I was surprised to find out that all sleeping cars were first class until the 1920s. And if you look at early timetables you will find a lot of overnight trains, but few of them with sleeping car accommodation.

There were news reports of second class sleepers as a new idea in Italy and France in 1922, and at the same time making them compulsory in Britain was being discussed for inclusion in the Railways Act. Then in Daily News (London) 03 August 1928:
"Third-class sleepers | To be running in September | Coaches now being built | Third-class "sleepers" will be running on the British railways on September 24th. The work of building these coaches is going ahead as rapidly as possible, and it is expected that the initial demand from third-class sleeping facilities is one that will grow rapidly."
(Note the quotation marks, capitalisation, etc!)

Clearly the companies were not keen. You might like this discussion of the impact of amalgamation from 1927 (Hansard) (https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/1927-02-16/debates/eebcb995-1437-44e2-ad22-d3b14b311d15/RailwayAdministration), as an interesting comparison with today. In it, Lord Monkswell for the opposition said:

Yes, even into the 1970s, there were many ‘overnight’ trains….generally mail, milk & newspapers. Twas a regular user of them in my young(er) years, returning from late-nights out!

I remember being on the sleeper as a child and my parents whispering "that's Harold Wilson.... smell the pipe smoke.... looks like his copper has the cabin next to him...."

Must have been around mid-late '80s. Seemed to be Harold Wilson took the helicopter from Penzance, whilst we were on the "Vomit Vessel"

Read this thread and read up on the works which sound difficult but needed. Then I wondered how the sleeper met the accessibility regulations. I googled that which lead me to this page which has a spreadsheet detailing the exemptions etc.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/heavy-rail-fleet-porterbrook-night-riviera-sleeper

Then I found another link via Google about the sleeper carriages, Porterbrook and accessibility. That lead me to the second document on that page

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907753/gwr-night-riviera-dispensation_document.pdf

which is odd because there’s no mention of Porterbrook on it. Then I realised somebody at DaFT doesn’t know how to redact a document properly :o

And hopefully will not copy this https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/e-bikes-banned-from-caledonian-sleeper-trains-after-risk-assessment-3583 (https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/e-bikes-banned-from-caledonian-sleeper-trains-after-risk-assessment-3583)

Re Sleepers

The Plymouth - Glasgow sleeper started to/from Penzance on Summer Saturdays (departure on or around 17.00), in its latter years (mid 90s?) the whole stock, including sleepers, started to/from Penzance on a Summer Saturday.

I remember the Plymouth portion of the Pad - PZ sleeper, I did it once and had a class 08 shunter for haulage from platform 4? to platform 8 at Plymouth hauling one sleeper and a guards van.

Sometimes the Motorail vans used to go down on the Newspaper train which left Paddington at 00.30 and got to Penzance at 06.54, this meant that your car got to Penzance before you did on the Pad - PZ Sleeper!  The Newspaper train finished around August 1988.

Until around 1978 there were two overnight Paddington - Penzance sleepers, one of which had the Exeter sleepers attached/detached at Exeter.