Great Western Coffee Shop

Split off from http://www.passenger.chat/26576 which started off as a thread about Dilton Marsh but has grown into a discussion on the awful shortfalls on the Cardiff to Portsmouth trains.

For today (from 09:23 from Portsmouth, hourly train service lengths to Cardiff

3-3-3-3-5-2-3-3 = 25 carriages; 40 needed for 5 car service

The continued presence of lots of turbos between Reading and various places from there such as Basingstoke, Gatwick and some Oxford, London and Berks and Hants services means, as I understand it, continued unfinished business on the Wessex Main Line ... good to hear Mark Hopwood yesterday considering that the current state of play on this line remains "unfinished business" and indeed that (as I understand it) he will still consider it "unfinished" even if all the trains go up to five carriages.

Mark was talking about future direction - enhancing the service into an hourly express from Cardiff to Portsmouth, and updating the patchwork of other services into an hourly Bristol to Southampton service calling at (? all) intermediate stations, with an extra MetroWest service Bristol to Westbury each hour.  He was also talking of "Operation Churchward", replacing the second generation DMUs across the patch with new trains capable of running on the various electric sources along the way, jumping short gaps with batteries, and only burning fossil fuel as a last resort.

Will this happen?  Knowing Mark, if anyone could achieve it, he could. BUT the $64000 question is "who's going to pay for it?". With revenues so much down, the country short of money, a government who don't see the railways (or climate) as a priority, and appalling reliability issues due to industrial relations and infrastructure problems, it's a brave vision, Mark, and I hope you can achieve it, but I'm not going to bet on it.

Had a trip from Southampton to Westbury on one last week - the 18:10 from Southampton.  Was a bit worried when I saw it was a three car, how many people were on the platform waiting, but I easily got a bay of two in the last carriage which was only half full at the most.

First trip on a GWR Class 158 in a while and a reminder that the interiors are lovely and the seats great, but that is really spoiled by the appalling leg room in the airline seats.  Oh, and the ridiculously large internal CIS displays look awful in darkness.

Something like "Operation Churchward" will have to happen at some point of course, as late 80s and early 90s DMUs will need to be replaced within 5-10 years, 15 at the very latest.  Good that new trains are being talked about, albeit vaguely, as perhaps the continuing saga of the 769s is starting to hit home! 

On the flip side, new designs of trains are often delayed as well of course.  The IET introduction was relatively smooth, but others are very slow to be accepted, Class 701s especially.  Stadler Flirts remain the most impressive type of regional train I've seen, and the Class 756s being built for Wales are tri-mode.  Types already introduced generally get introduced elsewhere with far fewer headaches, so perhaps an order within the next year or two will follow?  Though I'm probably dreaming given the current troubles!

I was on that train on Thursday - can't have been the same day because it was a four car 158 consist that day.  Yes, there was plenty of space when I joined it at around 18:30 a bit later on its route - but how it would have been an hour earlier when it set off from Portsmouth, I don't know - and services have to be "sized" for the busiest part of their diagram.

Just one 5 car diagram on the PMH-CDF services today.

From Portsmouth between 0601 and 1923:

5-3-2-4-2-3-3-3-5-3-2-4-2-3

44 carriages. 70 needed for full 5 car service. 2 car services totally unacceptable.

I was due to board the 2 car 1110 GWR from Southampton to Salisbury, but I took one look at the number of passengers waiting and decided to wait for the following SWR 'Romsey 6' service. There were around 8 other folk who didn't board that 1110 at Southampton. One irate couple were only slightly mollified when station staff sorted authorisation for them to travel with XC to Reading then on to Cardiff.

As for the lack of rolling stock. Yeah I know. Reasons. ::)

Some of those repeated - I make ing 25 carriages available out of 40 needed.


Ah yes - a lack of OHLE from Patchway to Portsmouth meant that class 332 could not be cascaded when withdrawn from services from Paddington in 2020.

Apologies. I meant the total number of carriages for the 14 departures from PMH. Not the actual physical rolling stock used for the diagrams. Yes, most sets do more than one round trip. Either way it's still only 62% availability.

And having a 2 car diagram among that lot really isn't on.

Especially on a Friday.  The busiest day of the week.

I saw a 769 on its way from Reading to Oxford ECS on Monday.  It sat down in Kennington Loop for many hours with what looked like techs trying to get it going again!

Update -

5-3-2-4-2-3-3-X-X-3-2-4-2-3

as the 13:23 is cancelled throughout and the 14:23 is starting at Westbury.
The 21:23 (Which expires at Bristol anyway) only starts from Fratton.

GWR did at least (and it's the very least they're doing) nominally put ticket acceptance with SWR in place, allowing for journeys between the south coast and Bath/Bristol/South Wales via Basingstoke and Reading. I say nominally, as its mentioned internally but I can't see mentions on public facing online sources.

No acceptance with XC between Southampton and Reading though, as far as I can tell.

I didn't know there were two (or more) Kennington Loops. The only one I knew about is on the Northern Line.

Off Portsmouth Harbour, pattern from 08:23.  3-4-2-3-3-3-3-3 carriages (and starts repeating) - 24 on the service, 40 would be needed for a 5 car service.

Here's a sample of the reports - noting that some aren't even pretenting to be 5 cars in the first place.




Not just the "primary" trains - some of the secondary ones too:


Probably no issue off Weymouth but along the way that becomes the 17:38 off Bristol Temple Meads - peak train - will that be a bit crowded??

So where are the carriages that should be on these services but aren't?  Are they out-of-service (broken down), out-of-service (awaiting routine maintenance), out-of-service (not being paid for, so not running), out-of-service (not enough staff to shunt and couple them), running other services (for example what should be Castle diagrams).

This thread put two things in mind.

* October 2021 and the presentations from DfT person, GWR and SWR spokespeople with a *lot* of talk of good intentions about strengthening services on this line in place of something *else* the travelling public actually needed, i.e. the soon to be axed Waterloo trains.

* Anecdote: an ordinary Sunday in February 2008 and an attempt to catch a morning train from Bradford on Avon. The two carriages pulled up at the platform completely full and standing, very few were able to board. Photo collage below.

14 years and on that line we still have a railway running old stock that's not suitable for the journey involved and is wildly capacity constrained and concerning formerly popular through services is in retreat.

Mark

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnnSqx88/BOA-February-2008-sunday-morning-rail-overcrowding.jpg)

The week before last my wife came back from Portsmouth Harbour to Warminster in a grossly overcrowded 3 car train - displayed as being 5 cars.  Six days later she went down with Covid (after succesfully "shielding" for over 2 years). 2 + 2 = 3.99999 ? ?

Are they getting them all ‘ship shape and Bristol Bath fashion’ ready for Saturday?  ;)

https://news.gwr.com/news/over-10-000-extra-train-seats-for-this-saturdays-bath-christmas-market

Off topic, but related.
Far too many daily short forms on Cornish services, been going on for years now.
'More trains than normal needing repair'.
Well, bring in many of the laid up stock around the UK.  Oh wait. we can't, the DfT won't pay for that.
Be assured we feel your pain cramped in a reduced 5 car set, but at least you have a train - what more do you want!

Dunno.   Today's pattern is 3-4-2-3-3-3-3-3 - 24 carriages where a full service of all 5 carriages needs 40.  There MAY be one or two diagrams that are not supposed to be 5 carriages, but most are - as seen by a graphic representation of JournetCheck Short forms:
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/jc_20221209.jpg)

Following up on my own post (oops!) - the other big stock question is the class 769.  Wikipedia tells us:

But is that current?   Are they expected for (this) December timetable change / Christmas.  Reminds me of a childhood game - [this year / next year / sometime / never] - I think it was a game along the [marry / snog / avoid] line, but seems appropriate for new trains!

There will still just a couple of them parked at Reading depot when I passed on Wednesday

There ARE diagrams that are not supposed to be 5-cars as I detailed in a post in the thread you split this one from in August:



No it's not current.  No staff have been trained on them yet (except driver managers).

Rumours circulating that they will never enter service with leases expiring next April - see post #2213 onwards:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-769-information-discussion.174866/page-74

That's an example from today.

Might be "interesting" with SWR's Portsmouth to Southampton and Southampton to Salisbury services, which provide the second train per hour along this route, suspended until the New Year.

Guess where GWR are short-formed today:



All (I think - I may not have clicked through every single one) are 5 carriages down to 3, or 4 carriages down to 2.

To give an idea of "scale", this listing is around a half of the trains on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service.

There's the odd short run too - lack of crew (and it "hides" a short form lack of carriages too!)


Does it actually matter today?  Is two carriages short on these trains really significant?  GWR think so - from their web site offering advice for the Christmas and New Year period:

Not specifically Portsmouth line, but yesterday didn't feel too busy on the IC routes. Leaving RDG early afternoon (earlier problems resolved apart from some knock-on delays), trains were well used but with good choice of seats. Except the full and standing 5 car IET on the Oxford fast - looked like mainly tourists. I've found the 27th very busy in the past, but the news was perhaps putting people off travelling. Some seemed concerned that i was trying to travel, having seen the reports (WCML with major blockade for example) but the national picture doesn't reflect individual routes.

Today does feel busy. Leaving now in Coach G, so not the first car people pile into. Journey just started and and already the luggage stacks are full.

It just feels to me that this line, along with many other GWR local services in and around the Bristol area, will never be put at ease. December 2019 sold the dream, and that dream became a nightmare with the pandemic. And now, a stubborn DfT who, in the opinion of some, are so set on cuts and cost savings that every aspect of the railway's future is bleak.

With the 769 project scrapped, it's inevitable that 2-car and 3-car trains continue trotting along this line for many years to come. The overcrowding on this line is evident and has been for many many years. Promises elsewhere such as Gloucester-Bristol half hourly, still set to happen in the eyes of the local MP, seem so far from reality on what seems to be a trip back in time...

I don’t think anyone will be surprised at this service being full and standing with just two coaches. Dare say people were left standing on the platforms of Trowbridge and Bradford on Avon unable to board the train.

Very likely in that direction, though a "full and standing" in the opposite direction would more likely disgorge more passengers than were waiting to get on at those stations.

What are the financial ramifications if a train is so short-formed that people are left behind?

* Can people claim delay-repay

* Is there any penalty on the TOC for providing a less that specified service to the extent passengers are left behin

* Does the TOC save on line access payments to Network Rail as it's a shorter train?

Yes; no; I believe so

Yup, there were problems heading in the opposite direction too:

For those that haven't come across it, there is a very good thread, on the same subject, here;

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/portsmouth-cardiff-service-potential-solutions.241357/

An interesting example ... I suspect that will be adequate in the early morning off Portsmouth and the last arrival back there, but some of the services during the day such as 08:06 from Trowbridge (08:12 B-o-A) into Bath at 08:30 and Temple Meads at 08:45 are likely to be a little busy, as is the 16:57 from Bristol to Severn Tunnel Junction, Newport and Cardiff.

Went through Fareham today (about 12:00), Basingstoke to Portsmouth train. Southampton to Fareham line shut due to flooding. A rather lonely deserted GWR set in the stub platform. A Portsmouth to Cardiff train (or reverse) stranded due to flooding? Although most Southampton - Fareham traffic had been re-routed via Eastleigh.

Friends caught the 10:30ish from Bradford on Avon to Bath this morning. 3 carriages, very full and very standing.

Later, the 16:35 back, which was 5 carriages - which loaded rather unevenly at Bath as the passengers from it had waited in the right place for a far shorter train, and the platform was fairly busy with people waiting for the 16:43 to Paddington, so when the train came in, most boarded through just a few of the doors, and once aboard for some reason people filled the vestibules full and standing when they had the opportunity and space to move down into the carriage and sit. Being fairly exernally grubby, it was difficult to see from the platform that there were plenty of seats though.

For some reason, the previous train at platform 2 (the London bound platform) was actually heading for Filton Abbey Wood, but tucked out of the way to give the road to an IEP that called at platform 1, but then slightly delayed the Portsmouth train's arrival, and the passengers then delayed its departure a couple of minutes, time that it soon made up.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G36902/2023-04-20/detailed#allox_id=1

Mark

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QCzx6BQ/bath-spa-200423.jpg)

Ignoring the obvious impact of short forms (services end up being busier and you are less likely to get a seat), this bit is one of my main pet peeves when travelling at the moment. At some platforms it seems basically impossible to know where to wait because there is zero consistency in train lengths due to regular short formations. Those of us in the know can use Real Time Trains, but even with that I've had issues where formation changes (additions or removals) aren't reflected on there.