Great Western Coffee Shop

It appears that as a result of TFW getting MK4 sets into service from the December timetable change there will be some major changes on the West Wales to Manchester services.

Apparently there are only enough MK4 sets to run most of the services from Cardiff to Manchester and return. This results in all of the current Manchester departures to Milford Haven which depart at half past the even hour terminating in Cardiff with a replacement service from Cardiff to Milford. The only hour that they continue further West is 1630 from Manchester but this only goes as far as Swansea.

The departures from Manchester at half past the odd hour appear unchanged and will run through to Carmarthen. In the other direction, the Milfords will run through to Manchester and the other hour from Carmarthen will terminate in Cardiff Central.

This has resulted in some broken connections.  In the up direction there is a connection off the GWR but that means a half hour earlier start/half hour longer journey with a wait in Cardiff or Newport. And only useful if travelling from Swansea/Neath/Port Talbot/Bridgend.  Not useful if travelling from Llanelli etc. In the down direction the wait in Cardiff is the best part of an hour off the 0830 and 1030 departures from Manchester.  And that connection only takes you as far as Swansea.  There are connections off the 0630, 1230 and 1430 but in the case of the 1430 you would also need to change at Swansea as well as Cardiff if heading to Carmarthen.  Currently its a direct train!  The 1630 goes to Swansea with a suitable connection to Milford.  The 1730, 1930 and 2030 all go to Cardiff as they do currently so no changes there.  The 1830 requires a change at Cardiff and the replacement connecting train still goes via the district line Mon-Thurs so useless for Neath and Swansea and a long wait for the next GWR service for those stations (pretty much the same as now).

I suppose the sensible thing would be to just travel on the through services to/from places West of Cardiff which still run every other hour.  However this isnt a lot of use for Haverfordwest and Milford passengers in the down direction. Unless one travels on the 0630 and 1630 Manchesters where there are good connections the wait is going to be the best part of an hour at Cardiff.  I realise there arent that many who travel the full journey and most people alight at Cardiff in both directions but the passengers who do make the journey and are used to the hourly through trains to Carmarthen (and 2 hourly to Milford) are going to find it an inconvenience.  Its a shame the connections cant be changed at least in those hours where there is nothing further West from Cardiff for an hour (or nearly an hour), sometimes there is a 3 minute connection time which isnt sufficient due to the 7 minute minimum connection at Cardiff.  Hopefully this will be looked at and amended.

Good point. From memory - I haven't been there for a while - the platform at Milford Haven is not a very lengthy one so perhaps these new MK4 sets wouldn't fit into the station there?

Dave

Looks like 5 Mk4 diagrams across the Manchesters and Holyheads. It's almost as if the 197s being not quite suitable for long-distance expresses has been acknowledged! I wonder if the 175s displaced by this will be used for much-needed strengthening. (And are any 197s entering service in the north, perhaps releasing more 175s?) It looks like there will be some Mk4s through to/from Swansea at the beginning and end of the day, when they would otherwise not be forming return journeys; the evening one looks reasonably useful, but the morning one is much too early to benefit most people in reality.

Some of the 175 journeys appear to divide and attach at Carmarthen - which is the first sign of the arrangement that is planned for Swansea in future. Hopefully there will be no more lone 2-car sets on main line journeys, except perhaps late evening. I wonder how this works with short platforms; the Swanline stations are max 4 car, and I'm not sure if the 175s have any form of SDO. Will they just diagram max 4 car on the journeys that make the stops, in which case additional stops to cover for disruption could be a problem? Or is there an arrangement for this in place. (Recently I was on a 6 car formation where 2 trains were coupled following disruption, so perhaps it can be done, but being in the front set I'm not sure what was done with the rear set to accommodate those stops.)

When it was first made known that a few Mk4 journeys would work to Swansea, the plan was to run them as far as SWA and run a separate DMU service from there, so running through to MFH probably isn't on the cards. Sectional Appendix (not hugely recent) gives MFH platform as 94m, so a bit short for a 5 car set, but I think I read that the Mk4s have (or will be fitted with) SDO.

Yes, I dont think they were ever planned to run as far as Milford Haven. Originally it was to be Swansea every other hour with the existing Manchester-Carmarthen the other hour. Now its been cut back to Cardiff every other hour aside from one journey each way from Swansea.  I assume the set that ends in Swansea will be stabled there overnight ready for the first train the following morning?  I agree its far too early to be much use. Running it an hour or two later would be better.  The return departure leaving Manchester at 1630 is decent though.

In the Summer I had the opportunity to travel on a 195 a few times whilst in Yorkshire. I understand the 197s will be almost identical inside to a 195. Overall I liked the 195s. However there seems to be a lack of space for much luggage and the seats not as comfortable for long journeys as a 175.  We shall see what the reaction is when they are finally introduced.  From what ive heard they will start with the December TT change in North Wales (Conwy Valley and Liverpool-Chester I think at first then Manchester-Llandudno/Holyhead etc).  I wouldnt be surprised if its a while before we see them in the Cardiff/South Wales routes.

Recently there seems to have been an issue with 175 availability as there are often 2 or 3 sprinters being used on the Manchester-South Wales workings each day. although during the past week ive noticed things have improved and some days almost all have been 175s when they should be.  Hopefully if 2 or 3 175s are spare from December we will see more 4 car formations on the ones currently 2 cars and the need for less sprinters covering. There should be no reason for them all not to be 175s (the ones that arent MK4!) from December TT if all goes to plan. If the 2 car sets were doubled up and then the 3 car ones remained as they are along with the MK4 that will provide much better capacity come December whilst still enough platform space for Swanline stops. 

From RTT it looks like the Mk4s will run empty to form the Swansea starts & finishes; I assume the Carmarthen crews aren't trained on them so it's being covered by Cardiff crews. I wonder if more are due to enter service later on, so that it's more practical to run more to Swansea.

Other sources suggest the 'north' crews are being trained on the 197s first, and perhaps there's a desire to keep them near their Chester depot initially, so maybe for a while 'in service' use will be concentrated in the north. The use of 197s and Mk4s should release a fair number of 175s for doubling up, but equally are some to be used to help manage the shortage of other stock, e.g. by covering some local diagrams so more 150s are free for the Valleys? Or even covering for 170s - not sure if any are due to leave in December. (I think 9 170 diagrams - 3 for Ebbw Vale, 1 for the Cross Keys shuttle, 5 for MST/CHM). Having no 2-car trains on the Marches (except very early/late) would be a useful milestone to reach, just as it would be for CDF-PMH. The Swanline platforms are 4 car, so I wonder if the plan is just 4 car doublings or if there's another solution there.

I have major issues with lack of luggage space on 'express' stock, and if I need to make any Marches journeys with luggage (which isn't often) I think I'll be aiming for the Mk4s as much as possible! The suburban-style door layout doesn't help, as it means having to choose the section with both seats and luggage space available, rather than just walking into one long saloon.

RTT also suggests that Kidwelly and Ferryside will no longer be request stops. Their 'hit rate' was quite high, so this probably makes lives easier all round, but I wonder if this is particularly motivated by the plan to have doubled-up 175s without gangways.

I have heard that the 2 car 170s are leaving by the end of the year. Therefore I assume some of the 175s/153s/150s displaced by the MK4 and 197s in the North will be used to cover some 170s.  I think the Cross Keys-Newport is already a single 153.  Unsure when the 3 car 170s are going.  The West Wales to Manchesters have been very busy every time ive caught them recently whether thats between Swansea-Cardiff of East or Cardiff and definately need at least 3 if not 4 carriages on every train.

Kidwelly and Ferryside no longer being request stops does make sense given they stop at them almost all the time. 

The doors being in the middle of the train on the 197s should help dwell time.

Its also about time Swanline as a stand alone service was returned. Im surprised it hasnt returned already.

So ...

Out:
4 x 2 car + 8 x 3 car. 32 carriages of 170 (12 units)

In:
51 x 2 car and 26 x 3 car. 182 carriages of 197 (77 units)
37 x Mk4 carriages

Which strongly suggest to me from my uninformed English view that there are other units outbound too.  Did some of the 197s replace the Pacers?  TfW also have 36 x 150 (72 carriages) and 24 x 158 (48 carriages) and 26 x 153 (26 carriages) with 3 more noted as "pending transfer in" - where are they in the equation?  Class 197 comes with standard-only and first-and-second varients suggesting to me that they'll be taking on between them a very wide range of service.

Swanline - currently served every 2 hours each way by long distance trains.  Experience and analysis more locally to me suggest that traffic would blossom with a. service hourly each way; I'll leave it to Welsh comment to balance the benefit of having through service from west of Swansea to east of Cardiff calling, versus the slowing of those longer distance services in order to make the extra stops.  The line was dropped from electrification plans, so each stop will have a bigger effect on end t end schedule with it still being diesel.

The 77 x 197s will on paper replace all 175s and 158s eventually (with the MK4 sets also replacing some 175s) plus a few 150s and 153s as they (197s) will be used on the Conwy Valley, Pembroke Dock etc.  The only old stock being kept are some 153s for the Heart of Wales line and possibly the Shrewsbury to Crewe stopper as they interwork with the Heart of Wales Line.

I think the pacers were replaced on paper with the introduction of 170s, 769s and extra 153s.  Using the 170s on Maesteg-Cheltenham and Ebbw Vale routes and extra 153s on Pembroke Dock and possible other routes allowed more 150s to be on the Valley Lines replacing pacers (along with the 769s on some Valley/Cardiff local routes).

Speaking as someone who lives close to a Swanline station, an hourly service would be ideal and id be much more likely to use my local station rather than travel to a larger station if I knew there were more suitable times.  Currently with it being 2 hourly i dont like to be tied to a certain time to return for example. With an hourly service it would be much more flexible.  Having said that I do still use Swanline stations when the timings work for me.

The ultimate intention is for the non-Valley Flirt fleet to cover the services currently operated by 170s. I haven't seen an introduction date, but they are frequently to be seen on training/test runs, so hopefully quite soon. They'll be 4 car, so longer than the 170s, but I don't think the total number will be too different, which means a follow-on order would be needed for any new services to run. I've also read that they'll be diverted to cover Valleys work until electrification has progressed sufficiently to use the intended new stock there.

The 197s and Mk4s will also be used in longer formations than the 175s in practice, with 5 cars on the Manchesters (attach/detach with 3 cars west of SWA), and 4/5 cars for any Mk4 services, so I'd hope total vehicles in well exceeds total out if we're to balance the books!

I'm not convinced the Pacers will be fully replaced until the new Valleys fleets are in place. As such it's just as well commuter demand is down!



Definitely some under-service here! It could be argued that demand will always be low at the likes of Baglan, as the stops are so close together and in areas reasonably well covered by buses (in the daytime at least), but the likes of Pyle are very underserved, and the smaller stops would do much better if a proper turn up and go service were provided. Currently the Cardiff for 9am market isn't covered at all. I think part of the problem with Swanline is it's never been seen as important enough to work out how best to serve it, and therefore it isn't given the opportunity to grow. Before my time, but I think the original service was an hourly Pacer to/from Bridgend, but demand wasn't great, so it fell back to a two-hourly stop on the expresses (as it was when I arrived in the area).

It's a different world now, given growth since the 1990s, so surely an hourly service is worth a try! When Arriva came along, dedicated trains were provided, off-peak at least, but using 'spare' capacity - one diagram tended to be linked to Heart of Wales services, and the other used off-peak slack in the Valleys diagrams, with many peak and early/late journeys being covered by expresses and start/end of day slack on main line diagrams. The demise of Pacers means there may well be no opportunity to use Valleys slack now. Essentially, 4 dedicated units would be needed for a dedicated hourly service. It would be a good use for something like a small 170 fleet, really; also use it to provide an hourly service on the Swansea District Line, and use those journeys to give Pyle a half-hourly service. I must stop daydreaming...

Am I correct in thinking before the December 2005 TT change Arriva/Wales and Borders only provided a 2 hourly service between Cardiff and Swansea which extended to various destinations after Cardiff - a few to Manchester, Bristol, Gloucester etc. These also called at Swanline stations. Then when the December 2005 timetable came in they stopped the services to Bristol and had an hourly service to Manchester.  Plus an extra 2 hourly for Swanline.  So there was a massive increase in services.

Yes - before Dec 2005 most of the long-distance services (to/from various places pre-clockface era) that went west of Cardiff served Swanline, roughly every two hours, although in the down direction I think towards the end it was hourly for a significant part of the afternoon. There were some that went beyond Bristol to Penzance/Plymouth or Waterloo - remnants of the Wales & West era. I can't remember exactly when those through services stopped (around 03-05), but I have a feeling extensions might have continued as far as Bristol for a bit longer to maintain the Cardiff-Bristol service level. When the Dec05 timetable draft came out, they were still showing through journeys to Bristol and Penzance - a bit ridiculously, they were extensions of the Holyheads, running through to Cardiff and back out! But by the time Dec05 was finalised, ATW had stopped running to SW England.

I think an hourly Carmarthen to Manchester express was a franchise commitment; in the draft, CMN-MFH was to be almost entirely a shuttle connecting with the expresses, which didn't go down well. The Dec05 draft was a bit too clockface, without much peak variation, and few or maybe even none of the Manchesters were to make Swanline stops, leaving just the two-hourly stopper.

I have a feeling it all changed with the December 2005 timetable and that's when they stopped the ATW services to Bristol and the West of England.   With an hourly service to Manchester plus the two hourly Swanline the service level between Swansea and Cardiff went from approximately 1.5 trains per hour to 2.5 trains an hour.

I remember there was a daily service to Penzance which around 2004/2005 departed Swansea around midday. I dont think this one did Swanline stops as it wasnt part of the 2 hourly pattern. Most of the Swanline stoppers went to either Manchester or Bristol.  I seem to remember there was an hourly service going West, not sure if it was Carmarthen and Milford alternating as now.

I guess as Wessex trains operated a half hourly service to Bristol TM the ATW services werent required. Im not sure if Wessex Trains operated half hourly services to Bristol before Dec 2005 and thats why some ATW were required. 

I wondered if it was a franchise commitment to run Manchester-Carmarthen or actually from Manchester-Cardiff and Cardiff-Carmarthen and just run them as through services as its easier, especially as they use 175s. 

Sample Swan Line timetables (Monday to Friday, late morning, eastbound) from 6 different decades

(EDITED to add more timetables - 10:10)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam7.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam7.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam5.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam5.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam6.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam6.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam2.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam2.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam3.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam3.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam1.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam1.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam4.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/swansam4.jpg)

Thanks for posting those timetables. Very interesting. I believe the last but one timetable posted is just before December 2005.  I think the 1233 from Neath was the one that went to Penzance (this didnt make Swanline stops, no doubt as it was already a very long journey to Penzance!).  I believe the 1150 went to Manchester and the 950 went to the Westcountry somewhere (possibly Exeter or Plymouth).  Hard to believe the service between Cardiff was so infrequent.  Sometimes only 1 train an hour.

The 12.33 from Neath was the Penzance. The one time I remember using it, it was a 153 (I think booked for a while) which was cozy running just before the London. At Newport it attached to a service from Manchester so it was 3/4 car into England.

In a way not much better now in the down direction, with the Manchesters running just behind the Londons! It's understandable that two compeltely different flows can't be made perfectly half hourly, but that's a good argument for Swanlines to fill the other half of the hour.

Another little piece of history is that 12:44 from SWA, which was the XC to I think Newcastle. I can't remember what year that stopped running - possibly when Operation Princess was complete.

Some bedtime reading – draft 2023 timetables:

https://tfw.wales/draft-timetables-2023

I haven't checked if these are May or December.

A lot of 197 use as expected. Other operators' trains are shown where known – and now there are two (or more - only glanced so far) PAD-CMN afternoon/evening journeys... Hopefully this removes the pointless long layover at SWA in the evening! Interestingly, one of them has a PAD-CDF running time suggestive of a return of the super-fast. The hourly dedicated Swanlines are also in there, but in the down direction they run just behind the GWR and ex-Manchester journeys, so not providing the proper half-hourly CDF-SWA service that would have been desirable.

I hope the driver shortages (to pick on one current issue) will be a thing of the past, or the enhancements won't achieve much!

Edit: Checked the West Wales table now... a lot more GWRs to Carmarthen, and a lot better timed than now!

Some thoughts.....  I assume this is going to be from December 2023 as i dont think enough 197s will be available by the May 2023 TT change although I could be wrong. 

Its about time Swanline got an hourly service although its a shame on the down direction there isnt a bigger gap between other services going West from Cardiff.  In the up direction it looks like they leave Swansea around 5 minutes after the GWR so thats an improvement as before the GWR had almost caught it up by Bridgend.  They also appear to be making stops at Pencoed etc between Bridgend and Cardiff (another reason it needs to depart Swansea after the GWR) providing a half hourly service for these stations whilst Maesteg still has an hourly service but goes to Ebbw Vale now rather than Cheltenham Spa. 

When I saw the list of timetables it said Swansea-Cheltenham Spa so at first glance of this i mistakenly thought the Swanline's were going to Cheltenham Spa which could have made sense given both these routes are being increased to hourly.  But it makes sense to keep them stand alone and the timings probably dont fit. 

It seems that Swanline and Pembroke Dock will be using 153s (pairs) initially before being replaced with 197s (I assume because 197s will be used on the Maesteg-Ebbw Vale, Newport-Ebbw Vale which also gets an hourly service and the Cheltenhams).  Interesting they chose to use 153s on Swanline rather than on Maesteg-Ebbw Vale as a stopgap, perhaps its something to do with moving sets back and forth to Swansea from Canton for the HOWL and Pembroke Dock.

It appears the Manchesters will still run every 2 hours from West Wales to Manchester with the other hour starting/terminating in Cardiff.  It looks like everything booked for a 175 will be changed to a 197 by next December so the 175s days are numbered.  Sad to see them go but understandable.  I guess the 150s and 158s will still be needed for a while.  150s on Valleys and 158s on Cambrian. Plus of course we are keeping the 153s for the HOW (plus Swanline and Pembroke for a while)  So it looks like the 170s and 175s will be next to go. 

The new hourly Swanline will be good as it will be easier to plan days out knowing there is an hourly service.  Hopefully it will improve usage at these stations too with less people travelling to Swansea, Neath, Port Talbot etc from these local communities.  Even with the extra stops at Pencoed etc it will still be quicker than going to a mainline station to get a faster train to Cardiff/Swansea for many.

Overall great to see some much needed improvements i just hope they will be able to deliver when the time comes.

I think the 2-hourly split at Cardiff on the Manchesters will remain because of the loco-haulage through the Marches; I wonder if there's a longer-term aspiration to extend more to SWA once there are enough sets available. As far as I can see the plan is as now (which hasn't actually come to fruition yet) with the only extensions being at the beginning and end of the day when there isn't a need to balance another journey at CDF - rather like some Manchesters extend to TEN/PMD in the evening now. As an aside, I note the non-MFH extenders will extend to Fishguard, giving Fishguard a more even daytime service. At some point hourly MFH, or at least as far as Haverfordwest would be good, but in the current climate we should perhaps be happy that so many improvements are still being implemented!

I note that the late evening Swanline down service has disappeared. It was often busy although that will be mainly fuelled by bigger stations, but useful as a last train. It would be good to retain it even if only on Fri/Sat. With the removal of Swanline stops on the Manchesters, Pyle loses a lot of its peak extras. It seems much less busy with commuters than pre-Covid, but it's a big enough place to try to drum up demand with a better service at busier times. Running behind other services is probably sensible with 2 car trains, especially with the extra stops east of BGN, but in the down direction that flight of services isn't ideal. In the up direction there's better natural spread.

The Swanline timings look too tight. The existing timings are tight enough; the proposed timings look like 175 timings without any dwell time! And the 175s timings as they stand are optimistic (e.g. PTA-BAJ is timed as 2 minutes for a 175 but really takes a good 3 mins) and rely on liberal use of 1 minute dwell times and recovery time to keep up. I wonder if 197s are significantly better performers than 175s. With 153s to be used in the interim, the timings won't be achievable.

If I've read correctly, the 5 car Manchesters are to go down to 2 west of SWA, whereas 3 was I think the plan. Perhaps this is an interim measure until more 3 car sets are available, and some 2 car units are cascaded to PMD (bearing in mind they'll need more of whatever type goes west of SWA). However with the GWR extensions there's much more capacity overall west of SWA. Some of those GWR extensions to CMN run quite close to TFW journeys (but I haven't checked closely - could be the way padding is implemented). I wonder if this is based on headways being improved; I believe SWA-CMN resignalling is due to be completed in 2023.

I hope this is all achievable by Dec 2023. I'm tired of the various current issues. The improvements hidden in the timetable for Dec 2022 (5 booked LH diagrams anbd CMN splits suggesting longer 175 formations) offered some hope but haven't materialised, and probably won't for a while yet.

I was surprised to see that the Manchester services will extend to Fishguard every 2 hours. In the other direction because of the way the timings work the return journey from Fishguard will terminate in Cardiff whilst the service going through to Manchester will be from Milford. Hourly to Haverfordwest would be useful given its quite a large town, the largest in Pembrokeshire I think and could do with a better service east to Carmarthen/Swansea and beyond.

The timings for Swanline have always been a bit too tight IMO and they could do with an extra minute or so for each stop. The stops are so frequent between Swansea and Port Talbot there is barely any time once the train gets going before it slows down again.  This is why them being picked up by what should be the fast regional express trains isnt ideal.  If they are using 153s as a stopgap until the 197s are free that could run into problems with keeping to time. 197s should be good for Swanline with the doors in the middle of the carriages.

Hopefully there will be a late Swanline from Cardiff. Either that or the stops get picked up by the last Cardiff-Carmarthen as now. Currently there is a massive gap in the evening with a Swanline departing Cardiff around 1904 then nothing until the last one at 2315.  So having hourly Swanline until 2050 is a good thing but we need a later train as well.

I think the original plan may have been to have the MK4's go to Swansea every 2 hours and turn there with a replacement between Swansea-Carmarthen (or wherever it was terminating Fishguard, Milford etc) then the other hour run through to Carmarthen/Milford from Manchester as now.  This would have been better IMO rather than them terminating in Cardiff. But there just dont seem to be enough with them being used on some Holyheads too. 

So there is a now a  Milford Haven to Manchester service but not vice versa.  Does that not at least half justify the original intensions of the new dead railway that was only ever completed from Carmarthen to Aberyswyth?

I used to be concerned about unbalanced services, but these days I understand if there's asymetry at the ends - looking at the one way through service between Weston-super-mare and Severn Beach that runs out at Avonmouth in one direction. In practical terms, through journeys between just St Andrews Road and Severn Beach to stations south of Temple Meads aren't going to be huge in the great scheme of things.

Fishguard through to at least East Wales to and from BOTH daily boat services from and to Rosslare makes sense. I have personally ONLY used the service in transit to / from Ireland, so cannot comment on loadings of the other services.  There is a real need to connect all the way through to English destinations off the last boat arrival.

I am not seeing what's using the Swansea District line, nor the curve that bypasses Swansea station, in the new timetable. Have I missed something?  I haven't looked at the Carmarthen avoider either ...

Im not sure what is happening with the Swansea District Line and Swansea avoider at Landore.

At the moment Monday-Friday we have the 12xx Fishguard-Cardiff and 15xx Cardiff-Llanelli (which used to be a Swanline but now the Swanline stops are picked up by the 1604 Cardiff-Fishguard instead creating a big gap in the afternoon but better timings for peak time).  Also what was the 1830 Manchester-Carmarthen, since the TT change last week is now split at Cardiff but the replacement still goes via the district line Mon-Thurs.

On weekends, I think the afternoon Fishguard-Cardiff goes via Landore on both Saturday and Sunday, unsure if anything goes via the district on Saturday but I think on Sunday at least one  Cardiff-Milford goes via the district.

Id imagine they will still have to keep up route knowledge for the occasions when engineering works take place between Swansea-Llanelli.

The timetable appears to be generic weekday, albeit with the last Milford having a note saying it only extends on Fridays (as per recent change). I wonder if one of the evening services will similarly continue to run via the District FX to maintain route knowledge.

There's also a non-balanced working at Llanelli - one of the Swanline diagrams appears to start the day there. It wouldn't surprise me if the intention is to run that ECS via the District to maintain route knowledge. But I assume the reason there are more now is that both Cardiff and Carmarthen crews need to maintain route knowledge. Perhaps this is one of the things that will tweaked in time, unless it's all do be done in the weekend timetable or with ECS movements.

Llanelli, incidentally, gains a number of short workings. But I think the main reason for these workings is to fill in the layovers on the HoW diagrams. The extra trains added recently make for longer layovers and less efficient diagramming, especially if there's to be no interworking with other routes in preparation for use of a dedicated fleet; the Llanelli extras fill these gaps in the diagrams. If this increased frequency yields extra use, perhaps in time a local metro-level service with some stops at Cockett, Loughor etc might be a nice aspiration.

I think Landore and Carmarthen avoiders might not be such a problem for route knowledge, as they are single signal sections with a regularly-traversed junction at either end. I think I once read that route knowledge on such lines can be retained by driving the adjacent lines regularly. I can't remember if that was a from reliable source of if there were any technical aspects that might affect it. Carmarthen avoider might even be covered by shunt moves at the start and end of the day - a lot start and end the day there but I'm not sure to what extent they just pile up in the two platforms or are shunted around. (I think they use the sidings a bit as well.)

I doubt through running to MFH was high on the agenda. Manchester-Carmarthen is the flagship product, and I suspect what happens west of CMN is just about finding the most efficient way to diagram the service. Fishguard is a winner in this respect. On the subject of Fishguard, I note that the late last journey has gone - the extension of the last Swanline that has also gone. (Possibly disappeared this Dec as well from a look at RTT, but I haven't looked too hard.) I think it disappeared once before, when the boat was retimed, and a mid-evening journey replaced it, but then reintroduced because people wanted their late journey back. So maybe that demand will reappear, but post-Covid maybe the landscape has shifted too much for that to reintroduction happen again. It might be good for all the West Wales branches to have a later last train on Fri & Sat - perhaps on a 'use it or lose it' basis, and not quite as late as the last FGH was!

Re the last Swanline, perhaps the rationale for its disappearance is that Maesteg will have a later last train, so Pontyclun et al retain that last train. Not so good for Swanline proper, though.

I imagine the Landore loop and Carmarthen avoider isnt an issue as it is such a short amount of track.  Even the district line isnt much of an issue for a guard/ticket inspector given there are no stops on the line. The main role of the guard is to ensure any passengers for Neath and Swansea arent still on board! The last time i caught the 1830 Manchester I was alighting in Port Talbot anyway, but it was the going via the district line they were very efficient at walking through the train and checking where everyone was alighting and ensuring anyone for Neath and Swansea changed at Port Talbot. 

I used my Swanline station today for a trip to Cardiff as the timings worked out ok for me.  The up journey was going through to Manchester and 3 carriages but fairly quiet unlike a usual Saturday when everytime ive used it recently its been rammed.  When waiting for my return journey at Cardiff the Manchester service (1453) was formed of a 150 and departed about 3 minutes before the train from West Wales (from Swansea today due to engineering works) arrived.  So definitely wouldn't have maintained a connection! Seems a bit pointless splitting the service when the MK4's arent even ready yet, maybe May would have been more realistic.  And today one was subbed for a 150 not even a 175!! The 1512 Swanline was also a 2 car 175. Thats usually a pair of 153s on a Saturday.  150 on Manchester and 175 on Swanline seemed the wrong way around!   Overall a fairly quiet problem free journey in both directions to end the year.  Lets hope before this time next year the service will always been as efficient with the much needed improvements all implemented. 

Apparently the majority of TFW 175 fleet is out of service today due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time'.  Apparently only 5 in service and just 1 diagram on the Manchester-South Wales (1130 from Manchester).   An abundance of Sprinters are substituting, fortunately a few are 158s but mostly pairs of 153s or 150s.  I have seen a number of complaints on twitter,  poor TFW online team I wouldn't want to be them today. 

It seems they have cancelled all trains between Carmarthen and Milford, Birmingham-Wolverhampton and reduced services in the South Wales Valleys to free up Sprinters to cover. 

From various reports on railforums, the story is that, after three 175s caught fire in a month, they will all be given some extra maintenance checks. That doesn't take long, and some are already back in service. Two factors have been suggested as relevant. One is that, with so many new trains arrived by not yet in service, the lack of space and effort has led to 175s getting less time for their maintenance. The other is that their cooling air paths are being cleaned, as blocked grilles and radiators had led to overheating. That can, for example turn a hydraulic fluid leak into a fire, as well as other ways smoke gets generated.

There is a report from the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-64834688).

Well over two weeks later and still only around 3 or 4 175s in service.  It will be interesting to see what happens. Will they be repaired and cleared for service or they might they just scrap them and manage with the combination of 158s, 153s and 150s on the Marches until the 197s are there.   It seems by cancelling a number of services in the Valley's and West Wales, cutting back Shrewsbury-Birmingham to Wolverhampton, bus replacement on the Conwy Valley and cancelling the relatively new Newport-Cross Keys and Chester-Liverpool services they have freed up enough Sprinters to just about cope.  Fortunately some services on the Marches are 158s but a good proportion are 150 and 153s which arent great.

Interestingly yesterday one of the 4 175s that was actually in service did a HOWL service from Shrewsbury to Swansea before returning to Chester on the 1505 Swanline/Chester service. Assume this was a stock movement as there wasnt a sprinter available in Shrewsbury.  A sprinter then got swapped at Swansea and did the HOWL whilst the 175 did the Chester service.

Todays Railways magazine says TFW are in talks about keeping some 170s for longer. From May 175s were meant to go on the Maesteg to Cheltenhams with 150s I think on Ebbw Vale to compensate for the loss of all the 170s.   Could this be a sign that TFW would rather keep the 170s a bit longer and get rid of the 175s?  Nothing set in stone of course!

I would hope the plan isn't just to drop the 175s! A good job has been done making do without the 175s, and it's been nice having more 158s, but making do it is – the ongoing cancellations that are needed are not good PR, and the associated costs (provision of road transport and compensation) must be building up (I wonder how they compare to the savings of not running the trains). Then there's the loss of 3-car diagrams – the 2-car trains on the Marches were already a problem, and are now ubiquitous apart from the Mk4 journeys. Passengers were already fatigued before this happened, and "more trains than usual..." is becoming tedious.

Given the general tightness, even before the current issues, retaining the 170s seems sensible.

I wonder what's holding up a gradual return of 175s. Compare with the IET issues – they started coming back into service quite quickly by comparison. An apples with oranges comparison – and I have nothing against self-combusting trains being investigated properly – but I do wonder what the likely timescale is, given that there doesn't even seem to be much of a trickle coming back into service. Some sort of release from TfW explaining the issue behind the "(even) more trains than usual..." and what the plan is might be helpful for jaded passengers, even if it creates a wall of "more excuses" comments on social media. Or have I missed one? Can't say I've looked closely but if there has been one it doesn't seem to have been made prominent on website or social media.

I think the problem is Chester depot cant cope with maintaining the 197s and 175s. It was inevitable there would be a transition phase between the 2 fleets but unfortunately the decision to concentrate the 197s in the North initially has resulted in the Marches being the big losers, at least until enough Cardiff and Carmarthen can be trained on 197s.

Having now been on a 197 from Chester to Manchester earlier this month, we are definitely in for an improvement once they are fully rolled out in the South. A big upgrade on every type of Sprinter and also preferred them to the 175s. 

The only reason i think the 175s could go sooner is because they will be gone by December anyway. If they can hang onto some 170s for a bit longer and also get as many 197s onto the Marches as possible from May they may be able to just about cope. Time will tell I guess.   All TFW have said it the 175s are out of service for safety checks, i think they provided an update earlier this week saying the same thing about more trains than usual needing repairs etc.

Also I agree about the 158s. Ive always rated them very highly, especially since ATW did their big refurbishment of them around 2010/2011 but I also liked them before that and also liked the Wessex trains version of them.  Infact before the 175s had their refurbishment when TFW took over the 158s were my favourite of the ATW/TFW trains, we just didnt get them often enough on the Marches due to them being tied to the Cambrian/Birmingham/Holyhead services. 

Story continues ... From Wales online (https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/major-train-disruption-hit-wales-26514279)

In addition to this, yesterday one train broke down somewhere along the Marches line. This led to much delay to services and trains terminating early (the train we were waiting for at Hereford to go to Newport ended up terminating at Hereford). Along with all the cancellations, it meant those trains that were running were very busy.

It also meant that I learnt that Hereford is a very cold station to have to wait on when there is a chilly westerly wind blowing!

Around 6 weeks on and the situation is slowly improving both with the 175s and introduction of the 197s.  Although neither is happening fast enough really as there is still an abundance of 2 carriage 150s or 153s on long distance routes.  I had the misfortune of having to stand on a 150 the other day for quite a bit of time. There were many people travelling with large suitcases and a 150 is not ideal for large items of luggage with no luggage racks and many suitcases far too large for the overhead racks. A few of the tip up seats were blocked by suitcases and unfortunately there was nowhere they could really be moved to. So not ideal at all.  One thing 150 do have in favour over a 175 is if you have to stand on a train you have a bit more space to move around on a 150 than a 175 with the doors in the middle.  But a quick look at TFW social media pages on Twitter etc show it wasn't a great weekend on the Marches with lots of complaints and photos of overcrowded Sprinters.  The North Wales coast has done a bit better with some 197s doubled up to form 4 cars. Not seen many complaints from there so fingers crossed things are improving slowly. 

The 197 introduction seems frustratingly slow!  However it is getting better with a few 4 cars now plus it looks like Conwy Valley and Liverpool have their services back  now (as 197s).  One even made it to the Crewe-Chester shuttle today but only for 1 service, it was switched to a 175 after that (a real waste of resources when many 150s/153s are on long distance, unless there was a good reason for it, like it couldn't venture far from Chester depot!)   I wonder when we can realistically see the 197s on services out of Cardiff. I hope something starts to happen when the new timetable happens next month.

Regarding the 170s, more have left TFW for EMR. But apparently 3 are being kept until November which is a sensible move given the shortage at the moment of suitable trains.  Even if all 175s are back by May, it will take the pressure off a bit with those few extra 170s.

I even had a 3-car 175 last week.... they seem like a distant memory! One thing all this does show is that a non-uniform fleet can be quite helpful. When 197s are on almost everything non-valley, if they need a mass withdrawal it could be a lot worse! I hope there's decent availability of stock for those potentially warm bank holiday weekends coming up.

The forthcoming closure of the Treherbert line for upgrades will also free up a couple of 150s. (Looks like the CDF-PPD parts of the journeys will still run.)

I've seen it mentioned that the return of Swanline could be a place for 197s to start appearing in the south. Although before Covid they were very much not self-contained diagrams – effectively 1x interworking with valleys and 1x interworking with HoW – both of those routes are in a very different situation now and the Swanline diagrams are therefore very likely to be self-contained. Swanline also don't require multiple crews & depots per journey, so it's simple to ensure only trained crews work them, and keeps the diagrams close to a depot should a swap be needed. So for much the same reason that Swanline will be one of the last bastions of 153s when the full timetable rehash with mass 197s deployment comes into play, it makes sense for it to be a good place for the early 197 diagrams in the south. The CMN-MCR route is at the opposite end of the complexity scale, especially if 4/5-car workings and related split/divides start coming into play, so it will be be more of a long game to put on the hands of 197s.

Ive heard that Swanline and Cardiff-Holyhead will be 197s from the May TT change however whether this will be a few diagrams or all of them remains to be seen.

It looks like both the 15xx from Swansea and the 16xx from Llanelli end up going to Chester as they do now. Could this be a sign they will be 197s, or at least 1 of them will be, so the diagram/s end at the depot in Chester.  The one that comes down from Holyhead to Llanelli is no longer showing as a through working from May TT change and will start from Cardiff to Llanelli (it still goes via the district line on the down journey). Could be a sign all Swanlines will be formed of 2 diagrams again and no interworking as such with other routes.

Yes looks like the Treherbert closure will free up a few 150s. No doubt needed for some of the former 170 diagrams in the short term with only 3 staying until November when more 197s should be in place by then.