Great Western Coffee Shop

As I see that the department for transport is putting out to tender for a replacement to the HST.

What do people want the replacement to be good at and what facilities would you like on board? ( for example at seat catering, buffet car, electronic seat reservations or automatic doors) I am sure there are other suggestions and should be an interesting topic.

As I live in Cornwall with low track speeds I would be grateful if the replacement train had improved acceleration and automatic doors to decrease journey times on my regular commute.

I'd like to see a similar design to the HST, 2 power cars, but 9 or 10 coaches in length. Definitely not a voyager type creation. Capacity can only realistically be increased by longer trains.

Power cars, MTU engines, possibly a bit beefier than currently (futureproofed with the long term option of replacing or modifying for overhead power). Maybe some sort of guards accommodation in them if noise levels can be reduced and considered safer / regards inergen or whatnot, so that guards areas can be given over to seats in coaches.

Coach A - guards van (assuming power cars unsuitable), standard class quiet coach
Coach B - standard class coach with more tables
Coach C, D & E - standard class coach airline seating
Coach F - standard class coach (more tables), and disabled space.
Coach G - buffet / bar, standard seating area perhaps similar to on the old class 442 'bar' area
Coach H - First class / resturaunt coach
Coach I - First class
Coach J - First class quiet coach and another guards or staff area at the end

Power doors on all coaches except in guards vans ends, tip up seats in vestibules. Doors at ends of carriage rather than middle as in current design. SDO system fitted, and PAs at all door controls. CCTV throughout the train which can be monitored by guards from secure areas - e.g. guards vans or power cars. Possibly some sort of distributed traction to enable faster acceleration, as long as ride quality isn't compromised.

Standard class seating similar to on SWT's 159's although with higher backs to meet safety standards. First class leather seating similar to existing service.

Luggage racks and spaces at ends of carriage broadly similar as to existing coach layouts. Working plug sockets, perhaps some sort of Wi Fi System. Toilets at each end of each carriage as in present coaches.

Current gossip is that it won't be diesel at all - and in fact a variant of the class 444 Desiro.

A one size fits all approach for HST2 will be a disaster.

Whatever happens, the train design must be flexible to support a number of options that may be needed on certain routes at certain times, and it should be easy to change the configuration quickly

- variable train lengths
- possible double deck carriages for busy routes
- security cameras in all carriages/vestibule areas
- restaurent car for long train runs
- Power facilities (socket/usb ?) for all seats
- WiFi

The list is endless really, but the most important feature is flexibility, and the ability to add/remove carriages, and possiblly turning 1 HST2 used for rush hour into 2 mini-HST2 for daytime/weekend use.

There are some ideas that I hadn't thought of. I agree that a one size doesn't fit all, and there should definitely be flexibility in the replacement to the HST.

I also think the train should continue to run at at least 125mph where possible but should support a higher speed if the infrastructure supports it. The train I feel should also be able to run on the majority of branch lines so then summer specials could be used but it also allows more flexibility due to unforeseen circumstances.

Double deck trains work really well in Switzerland where they are common, and in some places in this region they would be really useful. But I think this would require a major change to the infrastructure. I also think that a HST replacement like the ICE trains in Germany would be suitable.

Most of the country would require significant work to allow double deck trains, but I don't think this applies to the GWML and SWL areas, thanks to IKB, and our still largely Victorian network.

See also link below.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1013.msg5006#msg5006

Meaning no one will travel by train any more.

Well my HST2 would be like this formation wise:

Power Car-MTU Engine, Bicycle and Luggage Store
Coach A-Quiet Class, Half Luggage Store and Train Managers Office with Inward Opening Slam Door, Quiet Zone, No Tables
Coach B-Standard Class, No Reservations, 5 Tables
Coach C-Standard Class, 2 Tables, 2 Disabled Tables and Spaces, Disabled Toilet
Coach D-Standard Class, 4 Tables
Coach E-Standard Class, 4 Tables
Coach F-Family and Friends Class, Half Coach Available for Reservation, Special Reservation System
Coach G-Restaurant Class, Buffet Area, Kitchen, First Class Seating, 8 Walk Up Tables for Dining
Coach H-First Class, All Tables
Coach I- Premier Class, Quiet Zone, No Tables Half has a First Class Service Area
Power Car-MTU Engine, Bicycle and Luggage Store

Standard Class is same price as Quiet Class and Family and Freinds Class.
Family and Freinds Class only available when booking more than 3 Seats at the Same Time.
First Class is the same price as Premier Class.
Power Doors, No tip up seats, CCTV. Luggage Racks at End and Middle of Carriages.
Paper Reservation Tickets.
Soft Comfortable Seats with High Backs.
First Class: Soft, Cushiony, High Back, Big, Spacious seats.
Free Wi-Fi.
Toilets only at one end of Coach, giving one at every Vestibule and four doors.

Eh?

There is a plan on the table currently to electrify the entire GWML using 25kV OHLE. Rumour has it WoE will go third rail.

Interesting, is Labour borrowing more money they dont have then  :D

If the GWML is to be electrified, it will definitely allow faster accelerating trains, and while network rail work out where the money is coming from, possibly extend the shorter platforms to allow easier alighting and disembarking as people seem to want a longer train so far.

Would you travel London-Penzance on a 444?

Would you travel London to Penzance on a FGW HD set in standard?

The main candidate to go 25kV at the moment is the Midland Mainline to Nottingham and Sheffield - but I suspect GWML will very quickly follow as it would reduce the rail industrys fuel usage by a huge amount.

I wouldn't travel London to Penzance on a 444. But I would travel London to Penzance on a TGV, eurostar or an ICE train. I have done London to St. Austell on a FGW HD set in standard and that was ok for the first three hours.

The point I'm making by asking whether you would travel in FGW standard nowadays is one key reason - the seats are essentially the same. A curved ironing board with about 3mm padding (well, not really but you get the idea).

The key thing to remember is that the 444 design has advanced since it's inception (see the class 185, you can hardly hear the squeaks).

I would be quite happy to travel in any 444 variant between London and Penzance (or any journey less than 6 hours for that matter) as long as:
* The train does not swing from side to side in Siemens suspension, and instead bounces up and down.
* Seating is more adequate than most trains nowadays (this is the main reason why I try and travel FC everywhere - far better seating).
* Adequate number of tables.

Most definatly, done it from Castle Cary, could do it from London.
Seating is the main reason I don't like 444's, it is a lot less comfortable than FGW standard.

I'd travel on a 444, they look nice and airy and have large windows.

and the seats are sh1te

I'd say seating is a question of taste.

You can not like a seat and eventually get used to it - this is very much the case with 444 seating.

It has far less padding than HST standard.
HST standard has loads of padding, give the seats a couple of years and they will be extremely comfortable.

Please, please, please, regardless of anything else  - windows that open in the vestibule areas ! ;D

..................essential for that mid journey, cigarette break!!!  ;D

I'd rather have a 444 than some foul old botched 153 that should be operating regional Bristol services and not BRI to PNZ.

153's actually should be used on branchlines.
And 153's are more comfortable than 444's and more comfortable and nicer inside than a 150, the usual stock for BRI-PNZ.

There is absolutely no chance of droplights being fitted to new rolling stock running at 125mph.

I can't believe all of you are saying that you'd never travel on a 444 from London to Penzance - I clearly said it would be a variant. It is also up to the respective operator to do internal layouts - and specify the seats used (although I suspect all will choose the cheapest option).

A varient of the 444, with new seats would be a brilliant train for Portsmouth-Cradiff but still not convinced it is the best option for London-Penznace.

You're keeping to the idea it will be a fixed formation 5 car unit too much.

The design spec could supposedly be of any length, whether it be 3 coaches or 10 coaches.

Perhaps I just have a bad attitude toward them them, based upon bad experiences on them before. Have the refurbishments done them any justice?

I presume it won't have corridor connections at the front anyhow, besides, the 444 mould no longer exists so will be new  :)

Depends how traction is provided - I think its a safe bet that there will be some sort of through working.

Cant see drivers supporting the use of stock with a corridor in their cab for a London-Penzance service!

Ahh, pre refurb they were shocking.
Quite nice now.

I repeat - it depends on how traction is provided.

It could work on the basis of a power car system and therefore through corridor connections would be no real problem.

Remember that the front two thirds of a 23m coach when operating at 125mph has to be restricted access.

Have one loco and one DVT to allow the carriage of at least 6 bikes/3 tandems and luggage.

Fully automatic sliding plug doors that shut quickly - not like 158/Voyager plug doors which take forever!

A wide body on the Great Western version. Let's take advantge of what Brunel did and not end up with an extra thin train (like the Voyagers) just because there is a bridge/ platform clearance problem somewhere in Scotland.

Tilting to allow 140 mph - otherwise pointless in my opinion.

No SDO!

ALL platforms must be lengthened where possible to prevent the use of it. If you can't - tough luck (sorry Honeybourne Northbound- blame the planning depatment who let houses be built)!

SDO is vital, especially if trains are longer. It simply is not practical to lengthen platforms. Tilting is pointless too as much of the high speed route is straight.

Might as well build some 390s if you want tilt.

Besides, ERTMS should be here soon....  ::)

Big windows please  :D

The windy bit in Devon could be sped up!

NO 390s - I want a better view than my luggage.

What do we want on the replacement for the HST?

So we would like longer trains. (There is no need for them to be of a fixed formation allowing flexibility possibly from 2+7 to 2+10) In this case selective door opening is required but as they are likely to have power doors this should be easier for the guards and station staff.

How many carriages of first class? I would say 2-3 carriages of first class is sufficient if they are all table seats. In some countries first class on the train is airline seating on some trains with only a fold down table.

A restaurant car would be nice for the longer journeys, say if cross country trains ever rolled out the replacement HST e.g. on Penzance to Edinburgh, but a buffet car as a minimum

Paper reservation tickets as the electronic systems seem less reliable.

I would personally like to see displays showing the progress of the train in the vestibules linked to GPS. So that if you can't find a member of staff you will know where you are. Especially useful travelling back in the winter evenings. It could also be used to display messages about why the train is delayed.

The seats need to be comfortable for all passengers whether first class or standard class.

Conner I agree with you on the layout of the train. There are some good ideas being pushed around.

I do agree that the seats should try to be aligned with the windows. Do you think the windows should have blinds like the voyagers do?

My formation would be to add another coach to the HST2 between coach F & G which is half standard class and the other half is the Buffet/Restaurant. This would allow coach G To be expanded with more first class seating and room for the restaurant service so it can serve more standard class customers.

For the quiet coaches , I would like technology installed that prevents the phone from getting a signal.

You mean any Voyager coach!

No blinds on windows, very selfish people can put one down on an airline seat and you may not be able to see.

Most Voyager coaches have recently had a signal boosting technology installed...

Voyager trains are much better now that they have had the signal boosting technology installed.

The free Wi-fi is a good idea as long as it works better than NXEC's wi-fi.

Virgin should not have put signal boosters in, but signal blockers!

NO BLINDs, just use special tinted glass to remove any glare. 8)

One thing good about Virgin's trains, are the destination boards on the doors. It means that if you are in a hurry, and have not checked the departure screens, you can double check before boarding.

Yes, put them on HST2 (but omit "service code" - who needs that?).

One useful feature on all new trains, whether HST2 or local, is a track condition sensor, with auto - report to to Network Rail.

Real time telemetry reports from the network will allow Network Rail to monitor track conditions and prioritise maintenance work, and hopefully provide a better network!

If diesel then power car at each end, not under floor engines distributed through train - Adelantes were noisy. 2 + 8 or 9 and more installed horsepower, say 2,750 or 3,000 each power car so as to allow for all the hotel power that people seem to need these days. Oh and lots of tables.....

What about those like me who like to quietly text with my phone on silent?  :-\

I have no problem with that, maybe I should say a technology that reduces the signal, so that only texting will work in the coach. Otherwise as long as the coach is well labelled as the quiet coach and people observe that, there would be no need for such a technology.

Quiet Zones:

*NO electronic equipment allowed

*Phones off

*No sockets

*Signal blockers

*No WiFi

*No walkman

*Annoucements played at half volume

Other carriages:

*Phones in silent mode - move to the vestibule to make and take calls

*Dito with laptops - keep them silent as possible

The quiet carriage is always a contentious issue, with different people wanting different things. We do agree that it is a good idea to have a quiet carriage in standard class and in first class.

But if there are children travelling on advance purchase tickets they should not be booked seats in the quiet carriage, as it will mean their journey is better.

I find my journey better if I am in the quiet zone.

signal blockers just wont work in that small a space, and be able to contain them inside 1 carrige, without taking out parts of 2 others.

Fine. How about lead paint?

And who exactly will allow you to paint trains with lead, it is not going to happen.

I think that they should be able to change the reservation free of charge at any train station, if travelling with children and have been booked into the quiet carriage, would definitely be useful for younger children.