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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: ChrisB on February 05, 2023, 13:40:14



Title: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 05, 2023, 13:40:14
From The Telegraph, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/return-rail-tickets-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA177Zhr?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=df44d5ac5ba145bbb4bf8e51fade8392)

Return tickets are set to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long-awaited sweeping reforms of Britain’s railways.

Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will next week announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he outlines how the Government will address a crisis on the railways.

The rollout of "single-leg pricing" will be unveiled, The Sunday Telegraph has been told.

It means that two singles will equal a return – making return tickets redundant – having proved a success during trials with passengers. 

Mr Harper will also commit to Great British Railways (GBR), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same place for the first time. GBR was first unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 2021, but progress has stalled amid criticism that the body was tantamount to “nationalisation through the back door”.

During the hiatus, fears have grown that GBR would be scrapped. Mr Harper will show that “the idea that GBR is dead, is dead”, according to one person who has seen a draft of his speech announcing the reforms next week.

A Government source said that the speech was still being finalised this weekend. The new public body is expected to take on responsibility for timetabling and ticketing, which are currently controlled by the Department for Transport.

Ticket pricing reform ranks among the most complicated issues that remain unsolved, since privatisation by successive governments. There are 55 million different fares, according to trade body the Rail Delivery Group.

Mr Harper is expected to hint at the greater use of  ticketing technology – a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR codes and smartcards similar to the Oyster Card in use across public transport in London.

Single-leg pricing was trialled in 2020 by east coast train operator LNER. Return tickets were dropped in favour of two single tickets at the same price.

At the time, LNER said: “Rail tickets can be confusing. We want to make choosing and buying rail tickets simpler and more transparent. We hope this new structure is more straightforward: there are no more return tickets – one journey requires just one ticket.”

Keith Williams, the former deputy chair of John Lewis and ex-chief executive of British Airways, is expected to attend Mr Harper’s speech, which will be delivered in Westminster on Tuesday evening. Mr Williams conducted a two-a-half-year “root and branch” review of the railways on behalf of the Government and was the first to propose the idea of a “guiding mind” public body to prevent state meddling in day-to-day train operations.

But critics argue that Mr Johnson’s interpretation of Mr Williams's concept would have meant greater rather than less state intervention. Mr Williams previously envisaged the public body to be akin to the “Fat Controller” after the cantankerous character from Thomas the Tank Engine. Sources say that under Mr Sunak, the Fat Controller “will be put on a diet”.

Fears persist, however, that GBR will throttle the role of the private sector on the railways.

Former minister John Penrose, Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, said: "Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger's journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?"

MP for Blackpool North Paul Maynard, rail minister under Boris Johnson added: “Mr Harper's speech is long awaited. We are all keen to understand the shape and scope of GBR, and how the balance will be struck between the guiding mind and fat controller.

“As always, I'll be looking to see the passenger's interest placed firmly at the centre of policy making – and a recognition we need to get the passengers back if the railway is to avoid more painful times ahead.”[/quote]


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: eightonedee on February 05, 2023, 20:10:45
I have just posted a wider-ranging contribution on the "Wider Picture" board you might want to view next!

Edit to add - it's at http://www.passenger.chat/27163 - grahame


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Ralph Ayres on February 05, 2023, 20:41:21
Broadly a good thing as it means you can mix and match peak and off-peak journeys, as well as possibly different routes or train company, and don't have to commit to buying a return ticket if you're not sure of your plans. It's partly been brought to a head by the push for pay as you go Oyster-type payment, which doesn't lend itself to return pricing. See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27153 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27153) for an illustration of the difference.

Slight possible downsides:
1. If you're not already clutching the return ticket in your hand and the service goes belly-up, there may be less obligation on the operator to make alternative arrangements or to compensate you unless the DfT or GBR specifically build it into the arrangements for single-leg pricing. The operator may be able to say that you were warned of delays when you bought the ticket.
2. Many singles currently cost more than half the price of a return. That should mean price reductions on singles, but that's less income for the railway from anyone who only goes one way or already buys singles. In practice most people do come back which reduces the impact but still it could mean less money to run the railway or all fares being put up a teeny bit to compensate.

...and as for John Penrose's wish for lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices, I despair. Perhaps he didn't catch many buses in the early days of bus deregulation when on busy routes you had far more buses running than before but if you wanted the cheapest one you had to let 3 others go past first, and funnily enough no operator at all ran on the less popular routes.

Edit to clarify link - grahame


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: eXPassenger on February 05, 2023, 21:40:10
...and as for John Penrose's wish for lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices, I despair. Perhaps he didn't catch many buses in the early days of bus deregulation when on busy routes you had far more buses running than before but if you wanted the cheapest one you had to let 3 others go past first, and funnily enough no operator at all ran on the less popular routes.

Unfortunately he is my MP.  It reminds me of the comments about cheap trains interleaved with high value trains as an idea at the start of privatisation.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 06, 2023, 11:45:28
Broadly a good thing as it means you can mix and match peak and off-peak journeys, as well as possibly different routes or train company, and don't have to commit to buying a return ticket if you're not sure of your plans. It's partly been brought to a head by the push for pay as you go Oyster-type payment, which doesn't lend itself to return pricing. See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27153 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=27153) for an illustration of the difference.

Edit to clarify link - grahame

Think you broke it, Graham - it doesn't work for me?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: PhilWakely on February 06, 2023, 12:59:54
From The Telegraph, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/return-rail-tickets-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA177Zhr?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=df44d5ac5ba145bbb4bf8e51fade8392)

Return tickets are set to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long-awaited sweeping reforms of Britain’s railways.

Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will next week announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he outlines how the Government will address a crisis on the railways.

The rollout of "single-leg pricing" will be unveiled, The Sunday Telegraph has been told.

It means that two singles will equal a return – making return tickets redundant – having proved a success during trials with passengers. 

<snip>

So, taking a couple of current examples......

Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to Exeter Central:         £7.30 SGL      £7.40 RTN
Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to Sheffield               £156.90 SGL  £158.10 RTN
Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to London Paddington  £85.50 SGL  £141.40 RTN

Either the cost of a SGL will need to reduce to be 50% of the RTN or the cost of two SGLs will be significantly more than the current RTN. I wouldn't bet on this becoming another hike in the cost of rail travel.

Fares are currently set by the main TOC servicing the route with wildly differing structures, so I guess that future fares will be set by a single entity (GBR ? )


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: TonyK on February 06, 2023, 14:13:03
From The Telegraph, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/return-rail-tickets-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA177Zhr?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=df44d5ac5ba145bbb4bf8e51fade8392)

Former minister John Penrose, Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, said: "Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger's journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?"


Either John Penrose has no idea of how railways work, or I haven't. There are two possible ways to achieve his aim, so far as I can see. One would be to have lots of extra trains in different colours along the same routes. That fails because of the blood sweat and tears that goes into any timetable change, where adding an extra service in Bristol can have potential knock-on effects in Scotland. You may find room for a Go-op sort of service between two places that can be reached on a backstreets route, or a Lumo/Hull Trains intercity service on the few places where either there is room or the government is happy to stand aside, but it is hard to see much actual enhancement. The other option is more bizarre, and would involve having different companies selling tickets for the same service. That happens in a very limited way as part of travel packages offered by third parties, but I can't see a layer of ticket touts between customer and rail company doing anything to help.

Mr Penrose seems to be thinking that trains work like coaches, where National Express and Megabus can ply the same routes at the same time, but even they don't do that apart from along the most lucrative routes.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Marlburian on February 06, 2023, 16:10:56
... and as for John Penrose's wish for lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices, I despair.

I recall a junior Transport manager, long forgotten by  name, enthusing at the start of privatisation that one company was offering a fare from London to Gatwick that was 10p less than a competitor's.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: TonyK on February 06, 2023, 16:23:31

I recall a junior Transport manager, long forgotten by  name, enthusing at the start of privatisation that one company was offering a fare from London to Gatwick that was 10p less than a competitor's.

That's good if the other guy is charging 25p, less so when it's £18.50.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Electric train on February 06, 2023, 16:25:35
From The Telegraph, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/return-rail-tickets-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA177Zhr?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=df44d5ac5ba145bbb4bf8e51fade8392)

Former minister John Penrose, Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, said: "Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger's journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?"

How about allowing the Railways to manage the fares it charges and at what time, the Railways know their competition is not an internal one but with road, bus and air .................. BR knew this 50 plus years ago and the current Railway CEO's know it, lets hope the Government do not force GBR into a format where it is handcuffed by Politicians and (not very) Civil Servants  


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 06, 2023, 16:36:38
So, taking a couple of current examples......

Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to Exeter Central:         £7.30 SGL      £7.40 RTN
Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to Sheffield               £156.90 SGL  £158.10 RTN
Off-Peak, Newton Abbot to London Paddington  £85.50 SGL  £141.40 RTN

Either the cost of a SGL will need to reduce to be 50% of the RTN or the cost of two SGLs will be significantly more than the current RTN. I wouldn't bet on this becoming another hike in the cost of rail travel.

Fares are currently set by the main TOC servicing the route with wildly differing structures, so I guess that future fares will be set by a single entity (GBR ? )

The cost of a single will be half the price of the current return. So new single fares will be cheaper or the same. The query is over which 'return' fare they will use, many routes have more than one. THe main problem is whewre there is a CDR as well as a monthly return. I understand the CDR will disappear.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: TonyK on February 06, 2023, 16:56:29
I have often found two singles cheaper than a return in the past year or two, even on my occasional forays from Devon to Lincolnshire. It makes for more choice too.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: grahame on February 06, 2023, 18:06:15
Think you broke it, Graham - it doesn't work for me?

Actually it looks like I half-fixed an issue.   The other half fixed now so the link should work.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 07, 2023, 14:29:09
Yep, now working....moving on to today's press - now including announcement about how GBR is going to work -

From the i paper, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/return-train-tickets-what-scrapping-fares-will-mean-for-prices-and-how-the-uk-compares-to-other-countries/ar-AA17aHiy?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=492e9589aaa8422591885b4a132ee9f5)

Quote
Return train tickets: What scrapping fares will mean for prices and how the UK compares to other countries

Return train tickets will be scrapped in a Government shakeup to the UK’s rail system expected to be announced by Transport Secretary Mark Harper on Tuesday.

Under the reforms likely to be unveiled, the price of two singles will be adjusted to come to the same as the current return fare.

Mr Harper’s speech will detail plans from the Government’s new “Great British Railways” transport body, intended to “transform” the nation’s rail network. Here’s what we know about how the new ticketing system could work – and how fares in the UK compare with prices in other European countries.

Why are return tickets being withdrawn?
Some commuters have expressed fears that the price of single tickets will not be reduced in line with the cost of a return so they could end up spending more on their rail journeys than under the current system.

But a source close to the team working on rail reforms said it “makes sense” that passengers are offered the “flexibility” to purchase single tickets for less, and the plan is “very much not about hurting consumers”.

The Department for Transport (DfT) is yet to officially confirm this development, but is has not denied it either. A spokesman said the department would not be able to comment until after Mr Harper has delivered his speech.

How would the new system work?

A trial conducted by LNER shows how other operators would likely be encouraged to implement the changes.

In November 2019, the rail company, which runs services from London to Peterborough, the East Midlands, Leeds and York to Newcastle, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, began replacing return fares with single ticketing across some journeys scheduled from January 2020.

The trial set out to reduce the cost of travel for those who needed only to buy a single ticket for long distance journeys but ended up paying around what a return fare would cost.

Under the new system, which was backed by the DfT, return fares were replaced with single tickets costing around half the price of a round trip.

LNER said the change also benefits passengers who wish to make a round-trip as these customers do not need to decide in advance the precise date and time that they wish to travel, which allows for changes to their plans.

How much cheaper were the tickets?
Prior to the changes, passengers travelling between London and Edinburgh buying a ticket at the station had to pay £146.40 for a super off-peak single ticket or £147.40 for a super off-peak return ticket. Under the new system, the cost of a super off-peak single was priced at £73.70 – a 50 per cent saving.

What kind of ticket will I have to buy?
There are currently a host of options for rail passengers – a source of confusion and frustration to many travellers. Under the new system it is expected there will be three types of tickets to choose from:

– Anytime singles, which can be used on any route and are typically the most expensive option as a result

– Off-peak singles, whereby customers pay cheaper prices for travelling on trains that are less busy than the most popular services. Passengers usually have to travel during specific times and on certain days of the week on these tickets.

– Advance singles, which are for specific trains, and are cheaper than off-peak tickets and anytime singles as travellers have no flexibility to change their plans.

How does the cost of train tickets here compare to fares elsewhere in Europe?
The UK is the priciest country “by far” when it comes to the cost of rail tickets, according to recent research published by news organisation EuroNews. Passengers who purchase a single ticket to travel from London Paddington to Oxford the day of booking – outside of peak time – will pay just under £30 (about €34) for the 80km journey. A return comes to just under £60.

Norway is ranked the second most expensive country – the journey from the capital, Oslo, to the municipality of Kongsvinger, 75km away, costs about €25, with a return double that.

In third place is Austria, where the 77kmk trip from the capital, Vienna, to Melk, costs about €19 , while a round trip will comes to just short of €39.

Where are the cheapest countries for rail travel?
At the other end of the scale, a single ticket from Riga, in Latvia, to the municipality of Krustpils 120km away is just €4, and a return is about €8.

In Hungary, the hourly train from Budapest to Ujszasz costs about the same – €4 for a single and €8 for a return.

And in Poland, the 83km trip from Warsaw to the village of Malkinia will set passengers back just over €4.50, while a return costs about €9.

Looking at the most expensive country to travel by rail per kilometre on a return ticket, the UK came fourth, at €0.23, behind Norway (€0.33) Austria (€0.25) and France (€0.24).

The cost per km in Latvia, Poland and Hungary is under €0.05 per km, according to the calculations.

Interesting to note that the average price on French trains per kilometre is higher than the UK. France is always held up to have cheaper fares than us.

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64548794)

Quote
Trial of scrapping train return tickets extended

A trial of scrapping return tickets in a bid to make fares simpler will be extended as part of a shake-up of the country's railways.

The transport secretary will confirm on Tuesday that LNER, which operates trains along the East Coast mainline, will extend its trial of selling single tickets only on its routes.

Under the trial, a single is always half the cost of a return.

The government said such reforms could provide "better value" for passengers.

Currently, many singles are £1 less than a return.

Publicly-owned LNER operates trains between London and Peterborough, the East Midlands, Leeds and York, through to Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Glasgow.

It has not been revealed if there are plans to roll out the trial at LNER to the country's other train operators.

As an example, LNER said that when its trial began in 2020 the cost of a super off-peak single ticket from London to Edinburgh would be £73.70 rather than £146.40, or £147.40 for a super off-peak return.

Railway expert Mark Smith said the reforms created a "simple all-one-way fares structure designed for easy sale through today's channels: internet, ticket machines and contactless".

He said the current ticket system "penalises" people making open-jaw or circular journeys rather than straightforward returns.

In a speech, Mr Harper will outline how a new organisation, Great British Railways (GBR), will work.

In 2021, the government announced plans for GBR to replace an "overcomplicated and fragmented" system as well as set timetables and prices, sell tickets in England and manage rail infrastructure.

There were fears the plans might not survive the recent changes in prime ministers, but Mr Harper is to explain how it will work with the private sector as "a guiding mind to co-ordinate the entire network".

He will also announce plans to roll out pay-as-you-go ticketing across the South East, which will enable travellers to pay for journeys by tapping in and out with contactless cards or phones - similar to London's Oyster system.

"The industry's road to recovery after Covid has been tough, with reform badly needed to win back that lost passenger revenue while putting customers first," Mr Harper said ahead of his speech.

The transport secretary's announcement comes at a time when Britain's railways are being disrupted by strike action.

Rail workers and train drivers have staged a series of walkouts in recent months over disputes involving pay and working practices.

Union bosses are calling for pay increases in line with the rising cost of living, but train companies have said any pay rises need to go alongside reforms, with the Covid pandemic leaving a hole in the industry's finances.

Louise Haigh, Labour's shadow transport secretary, said regardless of the ticket people buy, "passengers are paying more for less under the Conservatives' broken rail system".

"Thirteen years of failure has seen fares soar, more services than ever cancelled, while failing operators continue to be handed millions in taxpayers' cash," she added.

Regulated rail fares in England are set to rise by up to 5.9% from March.

Certainly looking like the end of CDRs


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 07, 2023, 15:35:23
From The Times today (07/02/23). Not quite return fares but seems to be part of the new plans

Rail fares will fluctuate based on demand, in a similar way to airline tickets, under a trial to be announced by Mark Harper, the transport secretary.
Tickets on some London North Eastern Railway (LNER) services will be more or less expensive depending on how many seats have been filled.
The Department for Transport believes so-called demand-based pricing will help manage capacity while also raising revenue.
Harper will also confirm plans to expand single leg pricing across the entire LNER network, which runs between London King’s Cross and Scotland via the east coast main line.
That means a single fare will always be half the cost of a return. Currently, many return fares only cost marginally more than singles.
For example, an off-peak single between Durham and London costs just £1 less than a return. LNER, a government-owned operator, has been testing single-leg pricing on some of its routes since 2020.
LNER has been testing single-leg pricing on some routes since 2020
LNER has been testing single-leg pricing on some routes since 2020
Despite previous reports, single-leg pricing will only be rolled out across the LNER services, not the entire rail network. If successful, it will be extended to other operators.
Harper will deliver the annual George Bradshaw address to rail industry leaders in central London this evening. Named after George Bradshaw, the publisher and cartographer celebrated for his combined railway guides and timetables, the address has emerged in the past decade as the flagship rail event of year bringing together leaders from across the industry
It will provide an update on the future of Great British Railways — a new public sector body to oversee Britain’s railways — as well as setting out how it will work alongside the private sector as “a guiding mind to co-ordinate the entire network”.
He is expected to say: “Today I am setting out the government’s long-term vision for the future of our railways.

“The industry’s road to recovery after Covid has been tough, with reform badly needed to win back that lost passenger revenue while putting customers first.

“Today’s announcement is the latest example of this government taking bold decisions and getting on with the job.

“Growing the economy is rightly one of the prime minister’s top five priorities, and the measures I announce today will unleash more competition, innovation and growth in an important sector of our economy.”
The Department for Transport is expected to be spared any changes in today’s mini-reshuffle by Rishi Sunak.
The trial of demand-based pricing is likely to raise concern among passenger groups.
An LNER Azuma train at York station: currently an off-peak single between Durham and London costs just £1 less than a return
An LNER Azuma train at York station: currently an off-peak single between Durham and London costs just £1 less than a return
The practice, known as dynamic pricing, is widely used in the airline industry, with fares progressively increasing as more seats sell. Airlines have come under fire for massively inflating prices on school holiday dates and for major events, particularly overseas sporting finals.

Louise Haigh, the shadow transport secretary, said: “Whichever ticket you buy, passengers are paying more for less under the Conservatives’ broken rail system.

“Thirteen years of failure has seen fares soar, more services than ever cancelled, while failing operators continue to be handed millions in taxpayers’ cash.

“The next Labour government will put passengers back at the heart of our railways, and build the infrastructure fit for the century ahead, unlocking jobs and growth.”

Most rail fares, including season tickets, will increase by up to 5.9 per cent from March 5.



Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Electric train on February 07, 2023, 16:32:44
Yep, now working....moving on to today's press - now including announcement about how GBR is going to work -

From the i paper, via MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/news/return-train-tickets-what-scrapping-fares-will-mean-for-prices-and-how-the-uk-compares-to-other-countries/ar-AA17aHiy?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=492e9589aaa8422591885b4a132ee9f5)

.

Just do not know why Government Ministers bother giving speeches when they release 90% of it's contents a week in advance 


Certainly looking like the end of CDRs

In a few years someone will have a brainwave and offer a deal if you return the same day your tickets will be cheaper ................. more or less how BR invented them in the first place  ;D


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: eightonedee on February 07, 2023, 22:41:56
Quote
Rail fares will fluctuate based on demand, in a similar way to airline tickets, under a trial to be announced by Mark Harper, the transport secretary.
Tickets on some London North Eastern Railway (LNER» ) services will be more or less expensive depending on how many seats have been filled.
The Department for Transport believes so-called demand-based pricing will help manage capacity while also raising revenue.

Quote
The practice, known as dynamic pricing, is widely used in the airline industry, with fares progressively increasing as more seats sell. Airlines have come under fire for massively inflating prices on school holiday dates and for major events, particularly overseas sporting finals.

What would Mr Harper (or the adviser with the hyperactive mind and no empathy with his fellow human beings who thought this up) say if he called in at his nearest convenience store on the way home after a long days work to buy a pint of milk, only to be told that he was lucky, he had the last one in the shop this evening, so that will be £50 please?

And having seen the airline industry's woeful overall financial performance over the years why copy their business model? Is is really appropriate for terrestrial public transport, much of which is still walk up and buy your ticket? Many of its less affluent customers (and probably most of the rest of us) would regard not being able to know what it costs in advance as being a huge drawback and flaw in the service.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 08, 2023, 00:12:45
It’s wonderful that they want to scrap returns and offer only singles instead. However will I still be able to buy two singles at the start of my journey to make up the return I would have otherwise bought? Will there be an option to buy two singles to make up a return as easily and quickly as buying a return now? The last thing we need is to have everyone have to go through buying two individual singles because that will clog up the ticket machines at Paddington and elsewhere.

I very often arrive at the station to start my return journey with very little time to spare. I do not want to have to buy a ticket for the return journey after the outward one. I certainly don’t want to have it on a device or pick it up from a machine at the station.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: stuving on February 08, 2023, 00:19:21
This, I think, the relevant bit of Mark Harper's speech:
Quote
Let me start, however, with customers. To raise revenue, we must instil a customer first culture. That means reliable services, comfortable journeys and accessible stations. But it also means tackling the issue which tops passenger lists of biggest concerns, which is fares and ticketing. With 55 million fares available how can anyone feel confident they’re getting the best value for money? Ticketing should be hassle free, something you barely have to think about. Which is why, today, I can confirm the extension of Pay-As-You-Go ticketing, with 52 stations across the south-east set to be completed this year including on Chiltern, London Northwestern, and C2C services.

Ticket prices should also be fairer but often there is little difference between the cost of a single or a return. Operators are often unable to significantly reduce prices on quieter services. So, after LNER’s successful single leg pricing trial we’ll extend it to other parts of the LNER network from the spring and then carefully consider the results of those before extending more widely. It means a flexible single fare will always be half the cost of the equivalent return – giving passengers more flexibility and better value. This is not about increasing fares, I want passengers to benefit from simpler ticketing that meets their needs.

We’re also going to learn from the aviation sector and better manage capacity as well as raise revenue by trialling demand-based pricing on some LNER services too.

That last sentence is too vague to tell you what is really being proposed here, even as a trial.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 08, 2023, 00:31:04
This, I think, the relevant bit of Mark Harper's speech:
Quote
Let me start, however, with customers. To raise revenue, we must instil a customer first culture. That means reliable services, comfortable journeys and accessible stations.


I very much doubt they’re going to replace all those Fainsa seats  ;)


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 08, 2023, 00:32:43
It doesn't actually make sense. How can a single be half the price of a return, as opposed to just a pound or ten pence less, if "operators are unable to significantly reduce prices"? How can a single be half the price of a return, if a return has no fixed price, as is consequent on demand-based pricing? And how can "anyone feel confident they're getting the best value for money" when they're unable to know the price in advance?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 08, 2023, 01:19:58
It doesn't actually make sense. How can a single be half the price of a return, as opposed to just a pound or ten pence less, if "operators are unable to significantly reduce prices"? How can a single be half the price of a return, if a return has no fixed price, as is consequent on demand-based pricing? And how can "anyone feel confident they're getting the best value for money" when they're unable to know the price in advance?

It’s easy, you purchase your single outward and return ticket at the current price at the time, assuming the Ticket Vending Machine allows you to purchase tickets starting at another station at a future date.

If it doesn’t allow you then you have to purchase your outward ticket at the station at the start of your journey. Then you purchase the single for the return journey from the destination station at the prevailing price then. Now obviously with dynamic pricing, that price may have gone up (or rather unlikely down) since you bought the outward ticket. So at this point it’s pot luck as to whether you’ll have enough money to afford the return and could be stranded.

If it has gone up then you’ve got to pay the extra to get home assuming you can afford it. Obviously though this increase should be capped in some way. It’s not fair for the price to be able to go up by a totally unlimited amount. A limit of four times the original price of the outward ticket should be sufficient.

Obviously that’s claptrap and they’d never introduce a situation like that - I hope.



Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ellendune on February 08, 2023, 08:11:30
It doesn't actually make sense. How can a single be half the price of a return, as opposed to just a pound or ten pence less, if "operators are unable to significantly reduce prices"? How can a single be half the price of a return, if a return has no fixed price, as is consequent on demand-based pricing? And how can "anyone feel confident they're getting the best value for money" when they're unable to know the price in advance?

OK so How did GWR do it when it did this for most of its fares a few years ago?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: grahame on February 08, 2023, 09:05:52
I am reminded of the Wizard of Oz. Where a great deal of bluster and clanking around turns out to be just a bloke operating loads of levers and making something look far grander than it really is.  Someone has recognised the call to deliver to a dream to the lion, the tin man, Dorothy and the scarecrow and indeed has all four excited about it ... just to find that it's an extension on LNER, with perhaps the highest proportion of long distance journeys and fewer day returns than most, of something already under trial.   We might have anticipated an elephant, but perhaps we have been given a mouse?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 08, 2023, 09:18:54
It doesn't actually make sense. How can a single be half the price of a return, as opposed to just a pound or ten pence less, if "operators are unable to significantly reduce prices"? How can a single be half the price of a return, if a return has no fixed price, as is consequent on demand-based pricing? And how can "anyone feel confident they're getting the best value for money" when they're unable to know the price in advance?

Operators *currently* are unable to reduce prices; once these reforms are in, the single in a lot of cases will be reduced in price.

Returns will be no more, so it would be (one of?) the three types of single - likely the Advance, I'd say - that will fluctaute (as it does now, so no real change actually)

I suspect & hope that the other two types of singles (off-peak & Anytime) won't be demand-based priced, but fixed.

No mention of fixing the peak times across the country to be the same everywhere (or no peak at certain stations where flows permit), which I feel was a missed opportunity.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 08, 2023, 12:50:14
If Advances fluctuate but Off-Peak and Anytime continue to be fixed, then not a lot changes except, presumably, the degree and rapidity with which the Advance prices fluctuate. I'm not sure that's how airline prices work though; don't they all fluctuate? In any case, that doesn't help people feel confident they've got the best VFM; if they've paid a fixed price, they're likely to feel others have got the same ticket cheaper. If they've bought an Advance, they might feel they could have got it cheaper by buying a week earlier or an hour later. This doesn't matter to everyone (probably not even to most people) but it's uncertainty not confidence.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 08, 2023, 12:51:10
It doesn't actually make sense. How can a single be half the price of a return, as opposed to just a pound or ten pence less, if "operators are unable to significantly reduce prices"? How can a single be half the price of a return, if a return has no fixed price, as is consequent on demand-based pricing? And how can "anyone feel confident they're getting the best value for money" when they're unable to know the price in advance?

OK so How did GWR do it when it did this for most of its fares a few years ago?
Which of those things did GWR do?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: rogerw on February 08, 2023, 14:09:28
My concern is over day returns. For many local journeys the only fares available are singles and day returns with the former often only a few pence cheaper than the latter. If returns are abolished this could mean that local journeys almost double in price unless the single fare is significantly reduced.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 08, 2023, 14:29:10
For the record, Here's the SoS's speech in full (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/george-bradshaw-address-2023)

Quote
Good evening and thank you to Andy Bagnall and his team at Rail Partners for organising this event and for inviting me to deliver what is my first rail speech since becoming Transport Secretary.

What a fantastic setting this is, surrounded by reminders of Britain’s glorious engineering history and Bradshaw in whose name we meet today (7 February 2023). Whose timetables brought order to the chaos of the Victorian network is as much a part of rail’s story as Stephenson, Brunel and others honoured throughout this building.

I would also like to pay tribute to Adrian Shooter who sadly passed away in December. Over the past 30 years, few have played a bigger role in the growth and modernisation of the railways and I’m sure he’s missed by many a friend and colleague here today.

I realise I’m the second Transport Secretary to give this prestigious address. And I’m pleased to see Patrick in his seat. But me and Lord McLoughlin, Patrick as we all know him, or chief as I used to call him, have a bit more in common. We both hail from working class backgrounds: my dad a labourer, his a coal miner. We both grew up in historic railway towns: Swindon in my case and Stafford in his. And we were both promoted from the whips office to running the Department for Transport. Though admittedly, he was a bit faster than me I spent an interlude on the backbenches.

Now, 6 years may not seem like a long time but, as Andy says, during that period we’ve since left the EU, emerged from a global pandemic, had 2 general elections and my party may have had one or two changes in leadership. Yet the more things have changed outside the railways, the more they seem to have stayed the same inside.

Patrick’s 2016 Bradshaw Address was a passionate call for a more flexible, more accountable and more joined-up railway. That still rings true today, as do the reflections of previous Bradshaw speakers. Lord Hendy’s case for a whole system railway in 2018. Keith Williams, a year later, with his relentless and right focus on passengers and even Rick Haythornthwaite’s warning at the inaugural Bradshaw Address in 2011 of a disillusioned public not trusting the way our railways are run. Those all sound eerily familiar.

So, I’ve spent my first few months in this job listening to the experts, indeed to many people in this room, drawing on my experience in government and many years in business, to understand what’s holding back meaningful change and how we move forward.

Modernisation

There’s clearly a lot of frustration in the industry. There’s a widespread desire to end the sense of drift. By moving on from re-diagnosing the industry’s ills to getting on with fixing them. The government’s policy is clear. The Plan for Rail has already been announced to the House of Commons in May 2021 so delivering that policy, moving from the words to action that is my priority.

Because the railways, quite frankly, aren’t fit for purpose. We’re mired in industrial action, which lets down passengers and freight customers down. And historically unable to deliver major improvements at good value for the taxpayer. Britain is yearning for a modern railway that meets the needs of the moment. One reliable enough to be the 7-day-a-week engine for growth businesses expect. Nimble enough for post pandemic travel, whilst allowing more flexibility for freight and efficient enough when public spending is rightly scrutinised like never before.

The railways need fundamental reform and that is what we will deliver. And what I will try to set out this evening is how we re-energise that process. Freeing reform from the sidings and getting it back onto the mainline.

Context

But first, I must provide some important context. In putting an end to last year’s unwelcome political and economic turbulence this government promised to be straight with the public about the difficult choices ahead. We set out a plan to restore economic stability and that plan is working.

We’ve seen a significant settling of the market, we’ve reassured investors, calmed the markets and strengthened the currency. It’s a strong base from which to deliver the Prime Minister’s 2023 economic priorities: halve inflation, growing the economy, and reducing debt.

It is testament to this industry’s huge economic potential that even amidst a challenging fiscal climate we gave full backing to the £96 billion Integrated Rail Plan.

The largest single investment ever made in our railways will take HS2 from Euston to Manchester. Northern Powerhouse Rail across the Pennines. East West Rail between Oxford and Cambridge. And that has the Chancellor’s full support.

We’re not wasting any time. In December, I saw the huge construction effort underway at the site of Curzon St Station in Birmingham. It will be the first new intercity terminus built since the 19th century. Attracting tens of thousands of jobs and sparking housing and commercial regeneration across the city.

Broken model

Don’t take my word for it go and talk to Andy Street and you’ll get a very passionate case about the transformation that HS2 is bringing to his city.

But we risk wasting that future infrastructure spending if our railway model is stuck in the past and thanks to Keith’s painstaking work, we know what the underlying issues are. A fragmented structure that quickly forgets the customer. Decision making with too little accountability, but with too much centralisation. And a private sector rightly criticised for poor performance but with too few levers to change it. An industry in “no man’s land” as Andrew Haines correctly described it in his Beesley lecture.

And in the end it’s rail’s customers that suffer. Like on the East Coast Mainline, where passengers still await the full benefits of billions of pounds in taxpayer investment and years of infrastructure upgrades. I know this first hand. As a backbench MP, when I was trying to get a Sunday train from my constituency to London, I remember constantly refreshing the First Great Western timetable to find half the trains weren’t running. Like many passengers, I had no choice but to give up and take the car instead.

Andrew, who was then running First Group, probably remembers my rather irate emails from the station platform, interrogating him about why the service was so unreliable. Four months into this job, I now know why. I possibly owe him an overdue apology. It wasn’t entirely his fault. Because Sunday services are essentially dependent on drivers volunteering for overtime. Which means, despite best efforts, we can’t run a reliable 7-day-a-week railway on which customers can depend. It’s why I and the Rail Minister, Huw Merriman, have been clear throughout this period of industrial action that modernising working practices must be part of reform.

Pandemic impact

Finally, the pandemic has made a bad problem worse, a lot worse. Thanks to hybrid working, an economic model dependent on 5-day commuting is out of date. Take season ticket sales, which are at just 28% of pre-COVID levels.

Unsurprisingly, and you don’t need a chartered accountant like me to tell you this, the impact on the industry’s bottom line has been stark. Revenue is around £125-175 million lower each month and costs keep rising year on year.

Any other industry would have collapsed years ago but the railways have only survived because of the taxpayer and the public purse. The source of over 70% of income over the past 2 years at a cost of £1,000 per household. I won’t mince my words: operating the railways is currently financially unsustainable and it isn’t fair to continue asking taxpayers to foot the bill. Most of them don’t regularly use the railways. Including plenty of my constituents in the Forest of Dean.

But they find themselves subsidising an industry that delivers only 1.5% and 2% of all journeys that are taken by the public. That disproportionately serves commuters in the south-east and whose funding comes at the expense of other vital transport upgrades. At a time when sacrifices are being made across the economy we must be aware of the trade-offs when it comes to public spending and remind ourselves, as Patrick rightly said in his address, that the Department for Transport isn’t the “Department for the Railways”.

So, we have a broken model. Unable to adapt to customer needs and financially unsustainable. Left untreated, we will drive passengers away with poor performance, that will lead to fewer services, that will drive more passengers away and so on and so on. Only major reform can break that cycle of decline and Keith’s blueprint is the right place to start. So yes, we will create a more customer focussed and joined up railway. But we want to go further, I want to go further, and actually enhance the role of the private sector. Not just in running services but in maximising competition, innovation, and revenue growth right across the industry. Which the benefits of the private sector has delivered time and again.

Customers
Let me start, however, with customers. To raise revenue, we must instil a customer first culture. That means reliable services, comfortable journeys and accessible stations. But it also means tackling the issue which tops passenger lists of biggest concerns, which is fares and ticketing. With 55 million fares available how can anyone feel confident they’re getting the best value for money? Ticketing should be hassle free, something you barely have to think about. Which is why, today, I can confirm the extension of Pay-As-You-Go ticketing, with 52 stations across the south-east set to be completed this year including on Chiltern, London Northwestern, and C2C services.

Ticket prices should also be fairer but often there is little difference between the cost of a single or a return. Operators are often unable to significantly reduce prices on quieter services. So, after LNER’s successful single leg pricing trial we’ll extend it to other parts of the LNER network from the spring and then carefully consider the results of those before extending more widely. It means a flexible single fare will always be half the cost of the equivalent return – giving passengers more flexibility and better value. This is not about increasing fares, I want passengers to benefit from simpler ticketing that meets their needs.

We’re also going to learn from the aviation sector and better manage capacity as well as raise revenue by trialling demand-based pricing on some LNER services too.

Yet, passengers aren’t the industry’s only customers. Carrying tens of billions of pounds worth of goods we cannot overstate rail freight’s untapped potential for green growth. So I intend to create a duty to ensure the new industry structure realises that potential with a dedicated Strategic Freight Unit tasked with creating better safeguards, more national coordination and, later this year, listening to what was said earlier, setting a long-term freight growth target.

Structure

However, turning towards customers requires us to turn away from the current industry structure. So, we will establish Great British Railways, or GBR. As we prepare for that, we’ll pick up the pace of reform. I am pleased to announce that the winner of the GBR HQ competition will be revealed before Easter. And by the summer, we will respond to the consultation on GBR’s legislative powers.

The industry has long called for a guiding mind to coordinate the network so GBR will be responsible for track and train, as well as revenue and cost. Which means finally treating the railway as the whole system it should be rather than a web of disparate interests that it’s become. Passengers won’t longer face the excuse-making and blame-shifting of years past. Instead, GBR will be wholeheartedly customer-focussed. Serving as the single point of accountability for the performance of the railway and crucially, following ministerial direction, the GBR Transition Team will develop the guiding long-term strategy for rail which we will publish later this year and I hope will provide strategic direction to the sector.

Yet there remains a lot of misinformation about GBR. So let me tackle some of these myths head on.

This is not going to be Network Rail 2.0, nor a return to British Rail. Taking politics out of the railways is the only way to build a truly commercially led industry and, for me, that is non-negotiable. That’s why GBR will be an arm’s length body ensuring a balanced approach to both infrastructure and operations. With both sides getting a seat at the table and both sides delivering an efficient, high performing railway for customers.

The role of ministers is to provide strategic direction and be accountable to Parliament. It is not the role of ministers to pore over operational decisions. For example, I shouldn’t need to approve whether a passenger train ought to be removed from the timetable to allow a freight train to run instead, as I was doing earlier today. That will be left to industry experts in 5 regional GBR divisions working in partnership with regional bodies such as the Greater Manchester and the West Midlands Combined Authorities.

Similarly, we can’t take the other extreme view. Public oversight of our critical infrastructure is needed. Especially to support those passenger services that don’t turn a profit, yet still play an important economic and social role. That’s why we need a pragmatic partnership between state and industry, harnessing the necessary oversight of the state. With the dynamism, innovation and efficiency of the private sector.

This integrated model works, and not just with the railways. That was how we achieved one of the quickest and most successful COVID vaccine rollouts in the world, and its what we need to do in the railways.

Private sector offer

Which brings me to the final area of reform. To enhance the role of the private sector, which I see as central to the future of the railways. Under privatisation and thanks to a resilient and world class supply chain, passenger numbers doubled to 1.75 billion by the eve of the pandemic. With private sector investment in rolling stock reached nearly £7 billion over the past 10 years.

I don’t want to turn my back on that commercial expertise. The National Rail Contracts and current overcentralised approach are temporary, a short-term fix that has helped steer the industry through the pandemic and this will be phased out.

I want the private sector to play its most important role in our railways yet. To reinvigorate the sector, drive innovation and most importantly, attract more customers to the railway. It will do so in partnership with GBR. GBR will help set the right commercial conditions across several key areas.

There will be new Passenger Service Contracts that will balance the right performance incentives with simple, commercially driven targets. But they won’t be a one-size fits all approach. In the past, we know some operators took on more financial risk than they could handle. So, now that risk will sit where it is best managed and that includes with operators, but only where it drives the best outcomes for passengers and taxpayers. We shouldn’t be afraid to let managing directors of train operating companies actually manage and direct their operations. Which is not what they’re able to do at the moment.

We’ll also open up railway data and systems, whilst lowering barriers to entry for the industry. For ticketing, that means a more competitive retail market and I will welcome new players to spur more innovation and give passengers the services they need.

We will expand commercial opportunities around land and property near stations. In Japan, rail companies take full advantage of these investments, generating even more income for the railways and we should look to do the same.

And finally, we will support more open access services where it benefits passengers and taxpayers. We’ve seen this work well with Hull Trains and Grand Central as well as with Lumo on the East Coast Mainline. All offering passengers greater choice and more direct links. Open access operators will play an important role in the industry’s future, especially as we grow new markets and make best use of spare capacity on the network.

Conclusion

Let me finish by saying that despite being the second Transport Secretary to deliver this address I’m probably the first to be given a biblical nickname. Modern Railways Magazine described the rail industry as waiting for “Moses Harper to come back from the mountain with tablets of stone.” Whilst I’m, of course, flattered by that comparison, unlike Moses, I do plan to live long enough to reach the promised land of rail reform. And whilst my words this evening have not been divinely inspired they do have the full support of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, which, in politics, is the next best thing.

As a whole government, we are pressing ‘go’ on rail reform. Day-to-day work will be ably led by the Rail Minister, Huw Merriman, who’s here tonight and has long championed the need for a reformed railway, including when he was chairman of the Transport Select Committee. He will provide the stability and leadership needed, while also giving the industry freedom to deliver meaningful change and I hope you will all rise to the challenge:

to put customers first
to realise the benefits of GBR
to help enhance the role of the private sector
Because only then can the railway earn the public trust it needs to grow.

As we look ahead to the industry’s 200-year anniversary in 2025, this is our chance to resurrect some national pride in our railways. A chance to harness the political will that is there, the economic imperative and I believe the industry buy-in to build the modern railway Britain deserves.

It’s a chance we cannot waste.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: ChrisB on February 08, 2023, 14:31:55
My concern is over day returns. For many local journeys the only fares available are singles and day returns with the former often only a few pence cheaper than the latter. If returns are abolished this could mean that local journeys almost double in price unless the single fare is significantly reduced.

If there is only one type of flexible return, then the single will be half the price of that return. That has been stated clearly.

My concern is where a CDR exists *alongside* a longer-dated flexible return. It has also been stated that there will only be one type of off-peak single, and it won't be the off-peak day single.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Ralph Ayres on February 08, 2023, 15:08:49
I wish he'd expanded on that "Operators are often unable to significantly reduce prices on quieter services" as in my view it's untrue, or misleading at best. They may choose not to because it would just reduce income without increasing usage, a service at crack of dawn to nowhere special perhaps, where no-one extra would travel even if it were free. They may also not want (or maybe not be allowed by rules set by the DfT?) to reduce prices as the time of departure approaches, as such a lastminute.com approach would make pricing even harder to understand and less popular than ever, and drive a hole through any book-early-for-best-prices promise.

The only time I've been aware of operators not being able to reduce prices they control is when they've been forbidden to by the DfT, either during the post-pandemic arrangements or any other time the operator has been directly passing all takings back to the government, or occasionally if it would affect another operator's contractually guaranteed income or the apparent value of a franchise up for renewal. At other times the whole point of Advance (train-specific) tickets is to vary them to reflect and even out demand, and so far as I know operators can price them however they want.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: RichardB on February 08, 2023, 17:17:02
My concern is over day returns. For many local journeys the only fares available are singles and day returns with the former often only a few pence cheaper than the latter. If returns are abolished this could mean that local journeys almost double in price unless the single fare is significantly reduced.

If there is only one type of flexible return, then the single will be half the price of that return. That has been stated clearly.

My concern is where a CDR exists *alongside* a longer-dated flexible return. It has also been stated that there will only be one type of off-peak single, and it won't be the off-peak day single.

But Mark Harper said "This is not about increasing fares".   Unless there is a big cut in Single fares (who pays and are they prepared to do so?), removing the Cheap Day Return and its equivalents are, of course, going to lead to lots of vociferous losers.   Also, who would want to have to buy two Single tickets, one out and one back just for a short(ish) day trip?   Long distance, I can see it but short and shortish, not until contactless is available for these journeys.  That's probably not as far off as may be thought but it won't be next year or the year after (or for a further while still), that's for sure.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: grahame on February 08, 2023, 21:21:09
The answer about GWR's changes a few years back, as I recall, is that returns were unchanged and singles anytime dropped to 50% of return anytime, and singles off peak dropped to around 60% of the equivalent return.  But if someone could confirm that, it would be appreciated

New topic

The switch to singles on day return will be a delight to night shift works.   At present (example MKM to SWI, up on the last train and back on the first costs £8.20 + £9.40 = £17.60, versus day returns of £11.20 (anytime) or £8.30 (off peak). With singles half of the return, the total return trip will be that £11.20, or even £9.75.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 08, 2023, 23:29:11
If Advances fluctuate but Off-Peak and Anytime continue to be fixed, then not a lot changes except, presumably, the degree and rapidity with which the Advance prices fluctuate. I'm not sure that's how airline prices work though; don't they all fluctuate? In any case, that doesn't help people feel confident they've got the best VFM; if they've paid a fixed price, they're likely to feel others have got the same ticket cheaper. If they've bought an Advance, they might feel they could have got it cheaper by buying a week earlier or an hour later. This doesn't matter to everyone (probably not even to most people) but it's uncertainty not confidence.

From what little I understand of airline fares you have have different fare buckets with a set number of tickets available in each. So the cheapest most restrictive economy fare (non changeable, hand luggage only etc.) are in one bucket. The more/most expensive (changeable fares with hold luggage etc.) go into another bucket. Once the particular bucket is sold out, so is that fare price. The closer you get to departure the less chance of the cheaper fare buckets having tickets available. Therefore people who try and book days or hours before the flight often end up paying more.

Not sure the same could be done with rail fares.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 09, 2023, 09:30:14
That actually makes sense. I thought there were elements of time and demand as well, so that the price in each bucket would vary according to those factors. But if it's just buckets, it's simpler, should correspond more to customer demand and, in a way, fairer.

In terms of transferring those buckets to railways, flexibility is one that's obviously already implemented. It's foreseeable that you could pay extra to be sure of getting a seat and extra again to get the seat of your choice (perhaps table seats would cost more than others, for instance). A charge for luggage is possible but would be hard to enforce and unpopular. I suppose on longer journeys there could be more classes, not just first and standard, but there would be no scope for this on shorter routes. And this all goes against the professed aims of making fares simpler.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 09, 2023, 14:24:04
That actually makes sense. I thought there were elements of time and demand as well, so that the price in each bucket would vary according to those factors. But if it's just buckets, it's simpler, should correspond more to customer demand and, in a way, fairer.

In terms of transferring those buckets to railways, flexibility is one that's obviously already implemented. It's foreseeable that you could pay extra to be sure of getting a seat and extra again to get the seat of your choice (perhaps table seats would cost more than others, for instance). A charge for luggage is possible but would be hard to enforce and unpopular. I suppose on longer journeys there could be more classes, not just first and standard, but there would be no scope for this on shorter routes. And this all goes against the professed aims of making fares simpler.

The problem with trains is that there’s a lot more people who want to turn up and go on trains than on planes. These people are normally buying tickets that don’t tie them to a particular train service. The fare bucket model only really works if you’re selling tickets for a specific train because you are capacity limited on a particular service. Realistically you’re not going to be making a 5 car IET into a 9 or 10 just because you can sell a few more tickets at an inflated price.

You could say that the customershave to specify the service they want to travel on when buying any tickets and apply dynamic pricing then. The issue is that you then seriously penalise the people who are intending to travel on one service but get delayed and then their ticket isn’t valid for the next train. Say I intend to get the 19:50 for example, get stuck with a client and have bought a ticket for that service. Do I have to buy a second ticket for the later service? Or I intend to travel on the 19:50 and rock up at 19:35 to buy a ticket am I going to be paying more to do so?


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 09, 2023, 14:56:47
That seems to be the general trend. I don't like it, but that's one passenger's view, not the railway's.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: 1st fan on February 09, 2023, 16:04:48
That seems to be the general trend. I don't like it, but that's one passenger's view, not the railway's.

Hardly a vote winner which usually sways politicians.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: broadgage on February 10, 2023, 08:53:58
Interesting to read the suggestion that "perhaps table seats could cost more"
I have long argued that all, or at least the great majority of seats should be at tables on long distance trains.

A number of respected members took a different view and suggested that bus style, sorry airline seats were better. And yet now we see a suggestion that perhaps a premium price could be charged for sitting at a table, this being a facility that used to be taken for granted on long distance trains.
I can remember when HSTs had 16 tables/64 seats at those tables in a  second class coach. Each "improvement" reduced the number of tables.

Now we have the new shorter trains, with minimal tables, or as FGW put it "comparable to the previous trains"


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 10, 2023, 20:18:07
What will happen in situations where the single is already less than half the return? Eg someone elsewhere is talking of going to York from London next month, coming back same day. An off-peak return is £112 but advance singles are £29 each leg. They don't mention an off-peak single and I haven't been able to find one looking on NRE, but presumably it must exist.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: eXPassenger on February 11, 2023, 10:37:21
We all know how complex the current ticketing 'system' is and the anomalous examples quoted here show the complexity just on returns vs singles.  It will be interesting to see how the trials develop and how the balance will be struck between losers and gainers.  Realistically I doubt there will be any firm answers in the lifetime of the current government and it will be left to GBR in 2025 to pick up the poisoned chalice.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: Ralph Ayres on February 11, 2023, 20:54:03
Comparing an Advance single valid only for a specific train with a "walk up" more flexible off-peak return is very much comparing apples and oranges. However messily the whole thing is eventually delivered, I'm pretty confident that there will be a single available in each direction equivalent to that off-peak return. The project is intended partly to deal with the current lack of that flexible single ticket, as an alternative to being tied to a specific train booked in advance.


Title: Re: Return rail tickets to be scrapped
Post by: grahame on January 25, 2024, 17:35:20
Report published via https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/lner-single-leg-pricing-trial-evaluation-revenue-analysis

Quote
Details

This report is an independent evaluation of the single leg pricing (SLP) trial. The trial was introduced in January 2020 on 3 London and North Eastern Railway (LNER) journeys between:
London and Leeds
London and Newcastle
London and Edinburgh

The Department for Transport (DfT) commissioned the evaluation to provide a summative assessment of the impact of the SLP trials on revenue and customer satisfaction. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, onboard passenger surveys were not possible during the evaluation, which is why the focus of the report is on revenue impacts.

The SLP trial did not appear to have a significant impact on revenue. But this may be a result of the pandemic, which affected all passenger journeys and revenue across the network during the trial.

SLP on LNER journeys will be evaluated further to examine revenue and customer satisfaction impacts. This will also provide post-pandemic evidence to inform future fares and ticketing reform.



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