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All across the Great Western territory => Smoke and Mirrors => Topic started by: grahame on March 10, 2023, 08:30:27



Title: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: grahame on March 10, 2023, 08:30:27
From The Herald (https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/23375399.booze-ban-trains---beware-happens-next/) - an opinion piece by Mark Smith.

Quote
The booze ban on trains – beware what happens next

What a strange time this is. We are caught between a present that’s over and a future that hasn’t begun yet, and all we can do is watch the clock and wait.

But this weird period in politics is an opportunity as well, isn’t it? An opportunity for a new First Minister to look over their shoulder at the laws and policies that were either bad or badly done and ask: how else could we do it? The sectarian law. The hate crime law. The gender bill. You know the list.

The same applies to the booze ban on trains. You probably remember how it happened. It was November 2020, during the pandemic. ScotRail said they wanted everyone to travel safely and that people were less likely to keep their masks on or observe the distance rules if they were drunk. In other words, the rule was supposedly to stop the spread of the virus.

But then, in July last year, we got mission creep: part one. ScotRail announced they had agreed with the Government that the ban would stay in place for the foreseeable future. ScotRail said the ban had been successful in containing some of the antisocial behaviour alcohol causes. In other words, the justification appeared to have shifted from trying to stop the spread of the virus to trying to stop drunken behaviour more generally.

And now it looks like we have mission creep: part two. Instead of asking whether a policy introduced in an emergency should, without much examination, carry on once the emergency is over, Transport Scotland has recommended that the alcohol ban on trains should be enforced more strictly. They have also suggested the penalties for non-compliance should be strengthened.

Transport Scotland make the suggestions in a report on the experience of women and girls on public transport around safety – as the report points out, it’s an area where research has been sparse and it’s a serious subject that must be taken seriously. The report recommends, among other things, ....

The article goes on (I suggest members read it).  I've found it a difficult story to summarise in critical review and am conscious that if I quote the whole thing I would be going beyond what copyright allows.

Mark Smith starts with a Scots generallity on opportunism for new laws and rules to be slipped in and then comes down to the example of drinking on trains, banned during covid but then extended for other reasons.  A slippery slope that we have seen in England too.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 10, 2023, 13:30:56
Just speculating, but I'd guess that "they" (either ScotRail or ScotGov, most likely both) had wanted to ban alcohol on trains for some time, partly for behaviour reasons but also (on the half of the government) for public health reasons, and the pandemic offered an opportunity to introduce this.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: broadgage on March 10, 2023, 15:46:36
I can the merit of prohibiting alcohol on trains where problems have previously occurred or may be reasonably expect to occur in future.
A total ban on all trains in Scotland is in my view disproportionate and does no good to the reputation of Scotland as a place to visit.

I would also be concerned at the potential for "over interpretation" of the rules. I have twice been the victim of this in London.
I was threatened with arrest for moderate drinking at City Thameslink station. The uniformed "officer" who was not a police officer approached me and said "are you not aware of the law prohibiting drinking on the underground" I replied "yes, but this is a network rail station and not part of London underground" he stated that the station was below ground and that the same rules therefore applied ! Total rubbish !

On another occasion I was refused passage on a bus on the grounds that I was carrying alcohol, this was true some sealed cans of drink as part of my shopping. I explained that the ban was on drinking and the carrying of open containers of alcohol, and not carrying shopping. I was told to get off regardless. And had to pay twice as I had already swiped my Oystercard and had to pay again on the next bus. I wrote to complain about that and received a standard reply stating that the bus driver has discretion.

Does the Scottish ban apply to all trains ? including heritage railways, and charters or railtours ?
What about cross border trains ? will drink purchased legally in England be confiscated when the train crosses the border.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 10, 2023, 17:16:45
No wee dram on the Up Caledonian Sleeper?  :o


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: eXPassenger on March 10, 2023, 17:19:54
Quote
What about cross border trains ? will drink purchased legally in England be confiscated when the train crosses the border.

I await the updated version of 'Night Mail'.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: grahame on March 10, 2023, 17:46:15
No wee dram on the Up Caledonian Sleeper?  :o

It's Scotrail specific:

Quote
Our alcohol ban is in place 24 hours a day and means:

No alcohol can be drunk at any station in Scotland or on board any ScotRail train at any time of day.
You cannot carry visible alcohol – open or unopened.
Alcohol can be carried in a bag where it cannot be seen.
You will not be able to use our services if you are deemed unfit to do so.

So you should be fine on the Cally Sleeper (at least while Serco) are running it, or on LNER, Avanti, Cross Country to TransPenine Express while they are on the move, but not (if you read it carefully) while they are stopped at a station in Scotland.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: ChrisB on March 11, 2023, 15:28:19
Dry trains is surely the way to go?

I for one am happy for it to apply to me as I don't need it on a train - but others may view differently which I accept of course.

But generally, before midday, seriously, for example?

I get annoyed when boozed up football fans join my Saturday morning excursion to wherever. They're noisy, obnoxious generally once they've had a couple, and totally unnecessary before midday. In my experience north of the border, this extends to many Scots, certainly during the mornings at weekends. So I'm sort of in support.

But Dry trains would be the way to go on routes that suffer this type of behaviour. Why should trhe rest of the travelling public be affected by it?



Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 11, 2023, 16:01:03
You mean some trains dry and some wet? That appears to offer something for everybody, but would it in practice be clear which trains are which? And what about other areas where "boozed up football fans" interact with sober passengers, ie stations?


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: ChrisB on March 11, 2023, 16:37:42
Yes, but possibly by times, rather than individual trains. So no alcohol before midday, for example.

Stations would be down to the BTP or other security to administer, no change there.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Ralph Ayres on March 11, 2023, 18:45:49
London Underground and other TfL services have had an alcohol ban for some years now. In my experience drinking had rarely been a serious problem (the odd football crowd excepted), and the type of person who makes it a problem ignores the ban anyway and generally gets away with it in the absence of anyone brave enough and with the authority to deal with it. Transport Police already had sufficient powers to deal with any associated rowdiness though a specific offence perhaps makes the admin simpler.

...and the ban includes the Cable Car but they are happy to make an exception and sell alcohol as a money-making operation for special events such as St Valentine's Day.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Surrey 455 on March 11, 2023, 18:56:15
I wouldn't be happy with a blanket ban. I like to relax with a can or two of cider or IPA on evening journeys from the coast back to Woking or Clapham Junction. I don't recall seeing any bad behaviour on these trains.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 11, 2023, 19:34:20
I'm reminded of the 'no drinking zones' found in many city centres. Usually these are worded along the lines of 'It is an offence to drink alcohol in this area if warned by a police officer not to'. But not always; I remember when Bath introduced on back in the '90s, they had to go back and redo it as they found they'd inadvertently made it illegal to drink at outside tables of all the cafes and restaurants!


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: johnneyw on March 11, 2023, 20:47:32
I have to say that my occasional enjoyable tipple on the way home after a day out walking or exploring rarely ends up in an orgy of anti social behaviour and mindless violence.


Title: Re: Booze Ban and other convenient changes
Post by: Ralph Ayres on March 12, 2023, 00:27:00
I have to say that my occasional enjoyable tipple on the way home after a day out walking or exploring rarely ends up in an orgy of anti social behaviour and mindless violence.
Only "rarely"?



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