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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: PhilWakely on March 15, 2023, 10:54:40



Title: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 15, 2023, 10:54:40
Are you likely to be travelling (in either direction) between London Paddington and Exeter (or points west thereof) next week [Monday 20th thru Thursday 24th March]?

The line will be closed in the Taunton area, so through trains will be diverted between Exeter St Davids and Castle Cary, via Honiton and Yeovil Junction and take longer. Fares to London Terminals, marked 'via Honiton' are generally much cheaper than the 'traditional route' via Taunton and will be valid during the period of the diversions.

Booking engines do not appear to offer this 'via Honiton' fare, so please visit your nearest manned ticket office and request the 'via Honiton' fare.

*** edited to correct grammatical error ***


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: grahame on March 15, 2023, 11:26:43
Booking engines do not appear to offer this 'via Honiton' fare, so please visit your nearest manned ticket office and request the 'via Honiton' fare.

So ... to arrive Exeter St Davids at around a quarter past 9 in the evening. GWR site offers:

This week: 19:04 from PAD to EXD (21:15) - £59.90 Super Off Peak Single

Next week: 18:04 from PAD to EXD (21:36) - £149.50 Anytime Day Single
Astonishing  offer - that's a "via Taunton" ticket so is not even valid on that train, is it?

I would have expected a fare of £85.20 ("via Honiton") to be offered automatically, and it would be honourable of the rail industry to continue to offer fares for a mid-evening arrival into Exeter at the regular price if they choose for their own (legitimate) purposes to slow the journeys down and make people leave London earlier.

[edit] - I have just checked what "via" means in more detail - example quoted for Stockport, but I think Taunton is the same. "It means (in the absense of any easements) you have to travel via Stockport, the train does not have to stop there but it does have to pass through."  So the "via Honiton" ticket IS valid next week, but the "via Taunton" is not.  So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 15, 2023, 12:30:44
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ‘Via Honiton’ tickets are presumably set by SWR as that’s their normal route.  The fares engines won’t be clever enough to realise a diverted GWR service will be going that way and not stopping, so it won’t be offered.

Not ideal by any means, but the logic behind it is clear.  What I’m not clear on is how easy it would be to manually intervene and change the system for each train affected, and indeed whether it is possible at all?


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: grahame on March 15, 2023, 13:21:41
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ....

Oh, I would 100% agree - which begs the wider question of "how have we ended up with a system like this ...".    If anyone wants to attempt a full answer, please let me know and I'll buy some more web space to host your answer  ;D


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 15, 2023, 15:31:27
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ‘Via Honiton’ tickets are presumably set by SWR as that’s their normal route.  The fares engines won’t be clever enough to realise a diverted GWR service will be going that way and not stopping, so it won’t be offered.

Not ideal by any means, but the logic behind it is clear.  What I’m not clear on is how easy it would be to manually intervene and change the system for each train affected, and indeed whether it is possible at all?

Look at the 09:28 Newton Abbot to London Paddington, returning on the 16:04 ex-PAD. Both services are advertised as stopping at Honiton, yet it still only offers the 'via Taunton' ticket at £113.20 instead of the £91 'via Honiton' ticket.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 15, 2023, 15:34:26
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ‘Via Honiton’ tickets are presumably set by SWR as that’s their normal route.  The fares engines won’t be clever enough to realise a diverted GWR service will be going that way and not stopping, so it won’t be offered.

Not ideal by any means, but the logic behind it is clear.  What I’m not clear on is how easy it would be to manually intervene and change the system for each train affected, and indeed whether it is possible at all?

Therein lies the beauty of manned ticket offices! 


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: ChrisB on March 15, 2023, 15:36:27
The fares manual is hard coded to each service - it doesn't interrogate each service every time a journey planner search finds that service to check its routing before assigning the appropriate fares.

GWR would have to change the fares applicable to each service manually to apply different fares.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 15, 2023, 15:47:10
The fares manual is hard coded to each service - it doesn't interrogate each service every time a journey planner search finds that service to check its routing before assigning the appropriate fares.

GWR would have to change the fares applicable to each service manually to apply different fares.

Again, I refer you to reply #5 above  ;D


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: ChrisB on March 15, 2023, 15:55:32
Seriously, you think ticket office staff know their way around the fares manual? They don't even have a copy these days


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: bobm on March 15, 2023, 16:04:21
There’s a bloke at Newton Abbot who’s pretty good at it. 


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: ChrisB on March 15, 2023, 16:29:24
Soon to get sorted, with any luck ;D


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: Trowres on March 15, 2023, 16:35:54
From the latest issue of routeing guide easements:
Quote
Due to engineering works between Exeter and Taunton from 20 to 23 March 2023,
tickets priced on (00842) VIA TAUNTON, (00700) NOT VIA LONDON, (00411) AP
SLOUGH, (00820) GW ONLY, (00810) NOT VIA READING, (00000) ANY PERMITTED,
(00203) GWR SLEEPER & GWR and (00840) VIA HONITON will be valid for Travel on
Great Western trains via Honiton, Yeovil and Castle Cary. This map easement will not
apply to journeys that include travel via Brockenhurst or Salisbury. This map easement
applies in both directions

Indicates the intention was honourable, even if implementation wasn't right at the first attempt.



Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: trainbuff on March 15, 2023, 22:27:50
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ....

Oh, I would 100% agree - which begs the wider question of "how have we ended up with a system like this ...".    If anyone wants to attempt a full answer, please let me know and I'll buy some more web space to host your answer  ;D

And what happens if all the ticket offices close? Asking for a friend


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: DaveHarries on March 15, 2023, 23:10:21
So ... to arrive Exeter St Davids at around a quarter past 9 in the evening. GWR site offers:

This week: 19:04 from PAD to EXD (21:15) - £59.90 Super Off Peak Single

Next week: 18:04 from PAD to EXD (21:36) - £149.50 Anytime Day Single
Astonishing  offer - that's a "via Taunton" ticket so is not even valid on that train, is it?

I would have expected a fare of £85.20 ("via Honiton") to be offered automatically, and it would be honourable of the rail industry to continue to offer fares for a mid-evening arrival into Exeter at the regular price if they choose for their own (legitimate) purposes to slow the journeys down and make people leave London earlier.
Decided to run a query on my phone for trains between Waterloo and Exeter St. Davids for 22nd March departing at 1800.
1723 London Waterloo - Exeter St. Davids, arr. 2102 came up at £40.00 single with no change of train en-route.

The app I use is not one provided by an operator though.

Dave


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: stuving on March 15, 2023, 23:33:26
That £40 single is an SWR-only advance, so couldn't be offered for a diverted GWR train.

I tried NR's OJP and, apart from that SWR advance, it would only offer GWR's "via Taunton" fares for any routing, even on dates with no line closure. As for their cheap fare finder, when asked to find a fare EXD-WAT it crashed. So I suspect there's a problem with the data feeds.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: 1st fan on March 16, 2023, 00:40:55
Strangely I was potentially going to be travelling west of Exeter recently. That trip proved to be unnecessary but I had already done the research into tickets and train times. I looked at trains via Clapham Junction as I would have to travel from Shepherds Bush and could use the West London Line. National Rail Enquiries despite putting via Honiton as a requirement and a Gold Card was still offering me trains via GWR. I then realised I would be better off looking at trains from Clapham Junction as that would simplify things. It didn’t sadly and it was only when I selected direct trains, that ones avoiding any GWR appeared.

On the direct trains only results page there was a message that said

Quote
We're currently not able to provide Advance ticket prices and availability on our online and telephone enquiry channels.
The prices shown below are for tickets that do not require reservations, you may be able to purchase cheaper tickets once the issue is resolved. We are working to fix this problem as quickly as possible, and thank you for your patience during this time.

Weirdly though going through Paddington or using part GWR did offer advance fares.  ???


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 16, 2023, 08:08:27
So why is GWR selling the wrong ticket?

Due to the limitations of ‘the system’.  ‘Via Honiton’ tickets are presumably set by SWR as that’s their normal route.  The fares engines won’t be clever enough to realise a diverted GWR service will be going that way and not stopping, so it won’t be offered.

Not ideal by any means, but the logic behind it is clear.  What I’m not clear on is how easy it would be to manually intervene and change the system for each train affected, and indeed whether it is possible at all?

Look at the 09:28 Newton Abbot to London Paddington, returning on the 16:04 ex-PAD. Both services are advertised as stopping at Honiton, yet it still only offers the 'via Taunton' ticket at £113.20 instead of the £91 'via Honiton' ticket.

Yes, agreed that anything booked a passenger call at Honiton should be much easier to encode in the booking engines and automatically be offered.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 16, 2023, 12:31:19
Online offerings still show only the 'via Taunton' fare this morning  >:(


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: ChrisB on March 16, 2023, 12:33:40
It is being investigated within GWR at present


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: grahame on March 17, 2023, 11:06:05
From the latest issue of routeing guide easements:
Quote
Due to engineering works between Exeter and Taunton from 20 to 23 March 2023,
tickets priced on (00842) VIA TAUNTON, (00700) NOT VIA LONDON, (00411) AP
SLOUGH, (00820) GW ONLY, (00810) NOT VIA READING, (00000) ANY PERMITTED,
(00203) GWR SLEEPER & GWR and (00840) VIA HONITON will be valid for Travel on
Great Western trains via Honiton, Yeovil and Castle Cary. This map easement will not
apply to journeys that include travel via Brockenhurst or Salisbury. This map easement
applies in both directions

At least that confirms that the following - which is still the only offering from GWR's web site for a Paddington to Exeter trip next week to arrive between 9 and 10 p.m. - IS a valid ticket in spite of what's in the pop-up text.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/junksay7.jpg)

Whilst I understand that GWR will honour tickets routed "via Honiton" on this train - the equivalent fare is £85.20, I still feel that it would be honourable of them to at the very least actually offer that fare on their web site on the direct trains that goes via Honiton. Perhaps they should go further and offer travel at £59.90 which is what they would charge for an arrival into Exeter at about quarter past / half past nine at night if their own services supplier (Network Rail) hadn't chosen not to supply as normal next week.


Online offerings still show only the 'via Taunton' fare this morning  >:(

It is being investigated within GWR at present

OK.  Spend long enough  "investigating" and the problem will go away.  Or has the investigation concluded with "we are now offering a valid fare because of the easement ... and are not obliged  to offer the best fare via our website, so no action needed".






Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: ChrisB on March 17, 2023, 19:32:33
GWR have investigated and it's a fares database problem - and GWR don't look after that - it's an RDG (ex-ATOC) issue. GWR are pushing for a correction before Monday, but its out of their hands unfortunately


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: grahame on March 17, 2023, 19:39:29
GWR have investigated and it's a fares database problem - and GWR don't look after that - it's an RDG (ex-ATOC) issue. GWR are pushing for a correction before Monday, but its out of their hands unfortunately

How unfortunate ...


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: bobm on March 17, 2023, 20:34:37
In their defence at least GWR looked.  Going back a few years I am not so sure they would have done so.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: Trowres on March 17, 2023, 23:49:25
I doubt whether a TTI would consider problems with my internal fares database as a valid excuse for having a wrongly-routed ticket for the journey being made.

I hate these unequal relationships.


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: infoman on March 18, 2023, 06:29:40
Its a shame a computer can't think like a human brain.

I put in Paddington to Exeter central on the first available

MY ROUTE  06:37am departure from Paddington to Exeter st davids arrive 09:14,bus/walk/train to the top of the hill

computer route 06:29am Padington to Waterloo direct route arrive 10:54am


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: PhilWakely on March 18, 2023, 08:55:30
I note that a modication has been made, but not the one I would have expected!

Apparently, if you catch a slower train and change onto the direct service at St Davids the 'via Honiton SVR' is showing as valid - which is actually more expensive than the 'via Taunton' SSR. However, they are still not showing the £91 'via Honiton' SSR which should be valid!

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ww255/PhilWakely/Diversionfares.jpg)


Title: Re: Travelling between London and Exeter (and points west thereof), 20th-24th March?
Post by: grahame on March 18, 2023, 14:29:13
GWR have investigated and it's a fares database problem - and GWR don't look after that - it's an RDG (ex-ATOC) issue. GWR are pushing for a correction before Monday, but its out of their hands unfortunately

How unfortunate ...

Whoever (and which subcontractor it is or isn't),  I am happy to report that as of today GWR are offering the £85.20 anytime "via Honiton" fare on their 18:04 train from Paddington to Exeter St Davids (and beyond) which, err, runs via Honiton.   Thank you for that change; the £149.50 fare is still offered as an option, but it has rightly been displaced off the "headline fare" box by the cheaper fare designed for the route the train is taking.

So if you want to reach Exeter between 9 and 10 p.m. next week, you'll need to catch the 18:04 at £85.20 anytime via Taunton ticket, whereas in a normal week you could leave London at 19:04 and benefit from an off peak fare of £59.90.      You could also depart at the "normal" 19:04 time which gets into Exeter after half past nine at £52.50 (under the normal fare now, as it's correctly priced via Honiton).    There is also an exotic offering of an 18:00 departure from London, change at Bristol Parkway into a Cross Country bus and arrive in Exeter at 22:00 at a princely price of £140.00 - that's a "no thank you" from me but the RRB Facebook Group members might love it!



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