Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => Bristol (WECA) Commuters => Topic started by: TonyK on March 15, 2023, 14:35:38



Title: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: TonyK on March 15, 2023, 14:35:38
On Budget Day, Bristol 24/7 took to the streets to find out how people would improve Bristol's transport. The outcome of this in-depth investigation can be found here (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/features/how-would-you-improve-transport-bristol/)

Quote
HOW WOULD YOU IMPROVE TRANSPORT IN BRISTOL?
By MARTIN BOOTH, Tuesday Mar 14, 2023


If there is one subject to get us all hot under the collar, it’s about the problems of getting from A to B.

For the launch of Bristol24/7’s new quarterly magazine, ten people involved in Bristol’s transport – from campaigners and charity workers, to politicians and a cycle courier – were asked about how they would improve the way we move around our city.

They were asked a simple question: how would you improve transport in Bristol?

Zoe Banks Gross, Sustrans

(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Zoe-Banks-Gross-photo-Sustrans-e1678807083657.jpg)
“Adapting to climate change means we need to think about how people will travel in the future” – photo: Sustrans

“We need to design transport infrastructure with social justice at the heart. People across Bristol need walking and cycling paths that are safe, easy to access, and help connect them to school, work, shops and GP surgeries. And more leafy routes segregated from car traffic not only leading into the city centre, but also between neighbourhoods.

“Adapting to climate change means we need to think about how people will travel in the future, and plan for that city now. Adding more trees and green spaces creating shady areas for hotter summer weather and the capacity to absorb the increased rainfall we anticipate. A walkable, cycle-friendly city will be healthier and fairer for everyone.”

Tim Weekes, Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways (FoSBR)

(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Tim-Weekes-photo-Tim-Weekes.jpg)
“WECA plans to open some new stations, but it’s happening too slowly” – photo: Tim Weekes

“We need a better alternative to the car. Walking, buses, bikes and scooters are all hugely important. But they all have to compete for road space with cars. Bristol has a huge underused asset: its local railways. Railways have their own right-of-way, so they don’t need to compete with anyone.

“WECA plans to open some new stations, but it’s happening too slowly. FoSBR wants more stations to be opened, with better access and turn-up-and-go electric services. We want full integration with buses, scooters and walking. This would give large areas of Bristol the high quality public transport we desperately need.”

(Continues at source)

The other contributions are ferry owner in favour of ferries, walking man in favour of walking, civil engineer in favour of lots of civil engineering etc. Our own in-house expert stands out in arguing the case doe more and better rail. And there's Dave Redgewell, arguing a good case for integrating the means of paying for journeys.

Nobody suggested more bus lanes or buses, which is therefore likely to be the next action by WECA and/or councils. Can we do better here?

Edit: headings emboldened - Red Squirrel


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 15, 2023, 22:15:44
Thanks for drawing our attention to this, m'colleague.

We were asked to distil out ideas into 100 words. Quite challenging!

Prize competition: I will buy a pint to the person who can tell me where Red Squirrel was when that photo was taken!


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: johnneyw on March 16, 2023, 15:37:52


Prize competition: I will buy a pint to the person who can tell me where Red Squirrel was when that photo was taken!

The curved nature of the ceiling, the beige hue and the ventilator all suggest a heritage railway carriage.  Avon Valley railway....just 'cos it's local?


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 16, 2023, 17:10:24


Prize competition: I will buy a pint to the person who can tell me where Red Squirrel was when that photo was taken!

The curved nature of the ceiling, the beige hue and the ventilator all suggest a heritage railway carriage.  Avon Valley railway....just 'cos it's local?

No. Shall I let this run, or shall I just tell you?


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 16, 2023, 18:20:02
The vent looks like an office, retail or warehouse space, as does the beige ceiling. Could it perhaps be the Nut Mines where the Red Squirrels labour (in summer only, in winter they obviously hibernate)?

Wherever it was taken, it's not too terrible for a selfie. There are some pretty awful examples there.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Noggin on March 17, 2023, 08:00:09
Insist on a Bristol Airport to Bristol Temple Meads tram line as a condition of any further airport expansion, tapping the deep pockets of the pension fund that own it to PFI part of the project (depot perhaps), making it more palatable to the Treasury.

As many of us know, the first line of a tram system is inevitably the most expensive, fraught and time consuming, so getting that "out of the way" with an airport line, much of which would run "cross country" seems ideal and would make the business case for subsequent lines much better.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: chuffed on March 17, 2023, 08:48:11
Why not try a demand response service dubbed 'Dans vans' to commence just after April Fools day ?. Don't put out any information about it 2 weeks before it is due to start running..... Oh, hang on a minute...


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 17, 2023, 09:15:12
The vent looks like an office, retail or warehouse space, as does the beige ceiling. Could it perhaps be the Nut Mines where the Red Squirrels labour (in summer only, in winter they obviously hibernate)?

Wherever it was taken, it's not too terrible for a selfie. There are some pretty awful examples there.

It was actually taken by one of my kids, in Pizza Hut in Barrow-in-Furness, after a trip down the Cumbrian Coast line.

Apologies for slightly hijacking the topic.

I like the moniker ‘Dan’s Vans’…

I’ve been trying to work out the best way to visit friends who live in Olveston. Last time I took the train to Severn Beach and then rode my Brompton from there. It was fine as far as Severn Beach, but after that it was a miserable experience. I chose a day when icy winds were sweeping across the flood plain, carrying with them the constant howl of traffic on the M4, M5, M48 and M49. Although the route was fairly flat, the ramps up to the bridges across various roads were surprisingly steep. To add to this, for quite a lot of the way I was riding on narrow lanes with deep uninviting-looking rhines alongside. All well and good until you meet, as I did several times, a large SUV-type vehicle coming the other way.

So I thought next time I might try the No.622 bus. But I think I’ll need to hurry, as this seems to be one of the services that’ll be supplanted by Dan’s vans.

I can see a ‘before and after’ adventure in the making…


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: WelshBluebird on March 17, 2023, 10:51:24
The idea of building new stations is great, but serving existing stations better also needs to be a priority. I can't be the only person who thinks Parson Street and Bedminster getting only an hourly service for much of the day is a bit of a joke.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: grahame on March 17, 2023, 11:47:19
The idea of building new stations is great, but serving existing stations better also needs to be a priority. I can't be the only person who thinks Parson Street and Bedminster getting only an hourly service for much of the day is a bit of a joke.

Rhetorical question, I suspect, but "No - you are NOT the only person who thinks this is a bit of a joke".

Thin / poor existing services - both trains and buses, and the world over, seem to get scant attention.  I've tried (from a personal learning point) to understand a little of how service uptake relates to service frequency and tried to define the optimum (best loading per service on each flow) for general public use.  The best I have come up with is "Passenger journey numbers per service will be maximised if on average a random arrival at a point of joining the service leads to a wait for the service equal to the time then taken in transit on that service"

So taking some examples:

Melksham to Swindon.  Journey 30 minutes, so optimum wait time (for service loading) is 30 minutes - which means a frequency of hourly

London to Plymouth.  Journey 180 minutes which (yes) suggests that trains would be most heavily loaded if they only ran once every six hours. Impractical of course because of the volumes to be carried - 4 trains a day would be heaving (and would lead to companies from the Plymouth Chamber of Commerce) ... but then put it up to 8 trains a day and whilst overall passenger numbers would be higher, they would not be "as heaving" as the 4 trains would be. Cut to a twice daily service - still busy perhaps, but each of those two trains would not be quite as busy as the 4.

But it's more complex. The same London to Plymouth train is also covering flows London to Reading, to Taunton, to Exeter, to Newton Abbott.  And Reading to Taunton, Exeter, Newton Abbott and Plymouth, Taunton to Exeter, Newton Abbott and Plymouth, Exeter to Newton Abbott and Plymouth and Newton Abbott to Plymouth.  Each of those is a shorter / faster journey so requires a higher frequency.  Each has a different potential number of passengers. I would suspect than Reading tp Newton Abbott, for example, is smaller but then you need to add a further complexity looking at incoming connections to Reading and onward connections to Torbay.

Inner City Link such as Bedminster to Temple Meads - works out as needing a 15 minute service to maximise the number of passenger joining the train to make the journey.  So, yes, a quarter of that is "a joke" as far as catering for that flow is concerned.  Provide a half hourly Weston to Bristol stopper, and a half hourly Portishead to Bristol stopper combined with it to give a train every quarter of an hour and you will maximise the number of people joining the train.   Whether that pays for itself is a another question.  Whether there's track capacity is another question.  Whether other flows  on the same train for longer journeys outweigh the inner city requirements is yet another question.

Adelaide to Darwin.   Journey time 3 days.  A couple of trains a week is fine



Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 17, 2023, 12:01:30
If the British motor industry suddenly bursts back into life, Dan's Vans could be Norrises Morrises.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 17, 2023, 21:52:30
The idea of building new stations is great, but serving existing stations better also needs to be a priority. I can't be the only person who thinks Parson Street and Bedminster getting only an hourly service for much of the day is a bit of a joke.

Every 15 minutes (https://fosbr.org.uk/campaigns/every-15-minutes/) is a sweet spot as it gives people good connections with the national rail network from their local station. I've heard it argued that Bedminster is so close to Temple Meads that people don't need a local station, but that misses the point that if they had a frequent service from their local station they could use that to GET to Temple Meads! A fifteen minute service interval means you should be able to make a reasonable connection, be it to local or more distant destinations.

Obviously a higher frequency would be even better..!


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 17, 2023, 22:09:12
If the British motor industry suddenly bursts back into life, Dan's Vans could be Norrises Morrises.

I can't say I'm very impressed by the level of preparedness of Savage's Scammells, or WestLINK as we should get used to calling the WECA DRT service. It starts in April 2023, but the website (https://travelwest.info/westlink/) can't give a map of the areas of operation (zones) and you can't get the app yet. Doesn't bode well.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: infoman on March 18, 2023, 06:34:36
Shame neither of our local TV outfits decided to cover the reclaim our bus's protest at the WECA meeting that was held on Friday 17 march at the BAWA venue on Southmead Road.

Our public broadcaster more interestd in covering the horse racing,not sure why as ITV had sucked most of the news about the racing in the afternoon. 


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: johnneyw on March 18, 2023, 12:21:29

Every 15 minutes (https://fosbr.org.uk/campaigns/every-15-minutes/) is a sweet spot as it gives people good connections with the national rail network from their local station...........A fifteen minute service interval means you should be able to make a reasonable connection, be it to local or more distant destinations.

Obviously a higher frequency would be even better..!

I'd regard every 20 minutes as a "turn up and go" rail service frequency but perhaps I'm in a minority there.  Don't get me wrong here, I'm even more in favour of 4tph but if operationally, 3 tph can be achieved significantly earlier then I'd say such a line had achieved "metro service frequency".


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: grahame on March 18, 2023, 15:26:01

Every 15 minutes (https://fosbr.org.uk/campaigns/every-15-minutes/) is a sweet spot as it gives people good connections with the national rail network from their local station...........A fifteen minute service interval means you should be able to make a reasonable connection, be it to local or more distant destinations.

Obviously a higher frequency would be even better..!

I'd regard every 20 minutes as a "turn up and go" rail service frequency but perhaps I'm in a minority there.  Don't get me wrong here, I'm even more in favour of 4tph but if operationally, 3 tph can be achieved significantly earlier then I'd say such a line had achieved "metro service frequency".

A 20 minute frequency leads to timetable complications where it has to share a line / resource with a half hourly service.    Not saying "good" or "bad" - just saying.  Personally, I would love even an hourly service each way at my local station - but whilst we are part of the WECA commuter area, I can't really say "IN Bristol" which this thread is about.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 19, 2023, 23:01:34
If the British motor industry suddenly bursts back into life, Dan's Vans could be Norrises Morrises.

I can't say I'm very impressed by the level of preparedness of Savage's Scammells, or WestLINK as we should get used to calling the WECA DRT service. It starts in April 2023, but the website (https://travelwest.info/westlink/) can't give a map of the areas of operation (zones) and you can't get the app yet. Doesn't bode well.
No service after 7pm and none at all on Sundays doesn't look too good either.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: johnneyw on March 20, 2023, 11:53:34

Every 15 minutes (https://fosbr.org.uk/campaigns/every-15-minutes/) is a sweet spot as it gives people good connections with the national rail network from their local station...........A fifteen minute service interval means you should be able to make a reasonable connection, be it to local or more distant destinations.

Obviously a higher frequency would be even better..!

I'd regard every 20 minutes as a "turn up and go" rail service frequency but perhaps I'm in a minority there.  Don't get me wrong here, I'm even more in favour of 4tph but if operationally, 3 tph can be achieved significantly earlier then I'd say such a line had achieved "metro service frequency".

A 20 minute frequency leads to timetable complications where it has to share a line / resource with a half hourly service.
Ah yes, I have to admit that this aspect hadn't occurred to me.  Sometimes it seems that intermediate steps to increased service frequency are a bit more complicated than they at first appear. 
I do wonder though, if there is any broad consensus on what the travelling public consider to be a "turn up and go" frequency.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 20, 2023, 12:06:48
I do wonder though, if there is any broad consensus on what the travelling public consider to be a "turn up and go" frequency.

I would say every 15 minutes would be my personal definition.  However, if you live in London, I suspect most people would consider 5 minutes to be the minimum.  "What?  There isn't another one for quarter of an hour?!"


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 20, 2023, 13:57:49
I do wonder though, if there is any broad consensus on what the travelling public consider to be a "turn up and go" frequency.

I would say every 15 minutes would be my personal definition.  However, if you live in London, I suspect most people would consider 5 minutes to be the minimum.  "What?  There isn't another one for quarter of an hour?!"
Not a Londoner so most definitely open to correction, but I would have thought that would only be the case for central London.


Title: Re: How would you improve transport in Bristol?
Post by: Noggin on March 20, 2023, 16:28:15
I do wonder though, if there is any broad consensus on what the travelling public consider to be a "turn up and go" frequency.

I would say every 15 minutes would be my personal definition.  However, if you live in London, I suspect most people would consider 5 minutes to be the minimum.  "What?  There isn't another one for quarter of an hour?!"

15 minutes is usually the quoted figure, also if a service is cancelled then 30 minutes wait is tolerable for most people. 



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net