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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: grahame on March 25, 2023, 21:09:27



Title: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: grahame on March 25, 2023, 21:09:27
From The Mirror (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mps-claim-63k-first-class-29549490)

Quote
Luxury-loving politicians claimed £63,000 of first-class train tickets on expenses in two months.

Taxpayers footed the bill for top-flight journeys made by 115 MPs, figures from watchdog IPSA show.

Tory Anne Marie Morris claimed the most back with £2,842 for 11 first-class trips between her constituency in Newton Abbot, South Devon, and London.

Each ticket averaged more than £285 – while standard fares for the journey can be £55 to £75 when bought in advance.

etc

The article goes on to highlight some other MPs.

I have to disagree with the implication that at advance ticket would be an alternative.   As I understand it, MPs have little way of knowing their exact travel plans well in advance and it's not realistic to ask them to wait around to travel on their timed ticket.

As a separate discussion point, I have also travelled with an MP (met him at the station) in standard in a full and standing HST and I would suggest he might have been better seated in first and reading papers or even resting to arrive fresh in London.

"Luxury-Loving"?  They may be, but the decision to travel on a flexible ticket is hardly proof of that, is it?



Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Mark A on March 25, 2023, 22:15:05
Er... luxury... are there hidden compartments in a GWR IEP that we don't know about?

Mark

*Can say it's definitely not in the hall-of-mirrors food prep area 'cos, when they were first introduced, and unfamiliar with the trains and attempting to make my way aft to my booked seat in the not-platformed other half of a pair of 2x5 carriage sets I ended up in there for at least 30 seconds at St Erth before the uncharacteristically flustered on-train staff threw me out.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 26, 2023, 08:29:09
From The Mirror (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/mps-claim-63k-first-class-29549490)

Quote
Luxury-loving politicians claimed £63,000 of first-class train tickets on expenses in two months.

Taxpayers footed the bill for top-flight journeys made by 115 MPs, figures from watchdog IPSA show.

Tory Anne Marie Morris claimed the most back with £2,842 for 11 first-class trips between her constituency in Newton Abbot, South Devon, and London.

Each ticket averaged more than £285 – while standard fares for the journey can be £55 to £75 when bought in advance.

etc

The article goes on to highlight some other MPs.

I have to disagree with the implication that at advance ticket would be an alternative.   As I understand it, MPs have little way of knowing their exact travel plans well in advance and it's not realistic to ask them to wait around to travel on their timed ticket.

As a separate discussion point, I have also travelled with an MP (met him at the station) in standard in a full and standing HST and I would suggest he might have been better seated in first and reading papers or even resting to arrive fresh in London.

"Luxury-Loving"?  They may be, but the decision to travel on a flexible ticket is hardly proof of that, is it?




Some of our esteemed statesmen of course eschew such taxpayer funded luxury and make do with sitting on the floor............ ;)


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: ChrisB on March 26, 2023, 15:04:00
....of course, we must not forget that it was subsequently proved there *were* available seats that he could have sat in....


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 26, 2023, 15:43:09
....of course, we must not forget that it was subsequently proved there *were* available seats that he could have sat in....

There were seats for the many, not the few.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: JayMac on March 26, 2023, 16:27:58
....of course, we must not forget that it was subsequently proved there *were* available seats that he could have sat in....

For "proved" read "disputed".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traingate


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: JayMac on March 26, 2023, 16:34:31
Of course, if you can hawk yourself for extracurricular activities to the tune of £10,000 a day then there's no need to claim 1st Class train travel on expenses.

Not that that would stop the grubby attempts at enrichment by the likes of Matt Hancock and Kwasi Kwarteng. It's high time MPs were only permitted to be MPs. No moonlighting. Don't like that? Don't stand.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: ChrisB on March 26, 2023, 16:36:58
....of course, we must not forget that it was subsequently proved there *were* available seats that he could have sat in....

For "proved" read "disputed".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traingate

For "disputed" read "I didn't state what I meant - that there weren't two seats together" which is totally different.

Quote
He explained that "Yes, I did walk through the train. Yes, I did look for two empty seats together so I could sit down with my wife, to talk to her. That wasn't possible so I went to the end of the train.", adding that at first the train manager had offered to upgrade him to First Class, before allocating him some seats which he was able to take after 42 minutes

I can well believe that there weren't two seats together. But I note there was no video/claim that his wife was sat on the floor with him, so presumably, she took one of the empty single seats which then he could have done too?


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Bob_Blakey on March 27, 2023, 09:13:06
Any and all publicly funded (=taxpayer funded) services should be provided at the lowest possible reasonable cost. In the vast majority of instances non-London MP's will know quite some time in advance when they will be travelling to and from the capital. I do not accept that there is any justification for charging 1st class tickets to the public purse, standard class accommodation provides sufficient room, and privacy, to work on stuff like email and general correspondence. Nobody with a modicum of intelligence would work with confidential material on a train journey.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: broadgage on March 27, 2023, 10:16:21
I thought that MPs were no longer allowed to travel first class at the public expense, this being prohibited after the expenses scandal involving moat cleaning and floating duck houses etc.
Yet these reports suggest otherwise.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: onthecushions on March 27, 2023, 10:17:49
I an entirely in favour of MPs' travel expenses being for full fare first class journeys.

It is more money for the railway and displays to law- and budget-setters the best the railway can do. It also represents the value the public should put on their elected representatives.

If the fares are too high then they are too high for everyone.

I do not want my MP hanging around in the station buffet waiting for the first off-peak service, or frittering his evenings away looking for split or advanced tickets.

I also do not want my MP, having arrived first class at Paddington, then to go on to spend the day moonlighting at £10k/day.

OTC


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: ellendune on March 27, 2023, 10:19:54
I do not accept that there is any justification for charging 1st class tickets to the public purse, standard class accommodation provides sufficient room, and privacy, to work on stuff like email and general correspondence. Nobody with a modicum of intelligence would work with confidential material on a train journey.

I find it very difficult to work on my laptop in a standard class aircraft type seat as either my arms are too long or the seats are too close together.  Also I did no work (with or without a laptop) on my very expensive standard class peak hour journeys last week as I had to stand all the way from Swindon to Paddington and from Paddington to Reading on the way back.  


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: PrestburyRoad on March 27, 2023, 12:49:06
I want my MP to be able to work while travelling.  On a less-busy journey they may be able to do this perfectly well in a standard-class airline-type seat; on some journeys they may only be able to work in first-class.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: broadgage on March 27, 2023, 13:15:26
I have no objection to MPs travelling first class on the railway. Use of trains should be encouraged as a greener alternative to flying or driving.
I also have no objection to MPs working providing that any such employment is declared and is a matter of public record. Any such outside employment should also be declared whenever the MP speaks in the house on any relevant subject.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 27, 2023, 17:16:21
I an entirely in favour of MPs' travel expenses being for full fare first class journeys.

It is more money for the railway and displays to law- and budget-setters the best the railway can do. It also represents the value the public should put on their elected representatives.

If the fares are too high then they are too high for everyone.

I do not want my MP hanging around in the station buffet waiting for the first off-peak service, or frittering his evenings away looking for split or advanced tickets.

I also do not want my MP, having arrived first class at Paddington, then to go on to spend the day moonlighting at £10k/day.

OTC


A fully flexible full fare 1st class return from (for example)

London to Exeter is over £400

The fares may indeed be too high for everyone, but everyone does not have their tickets paid for by the taxpayer  - on a railway already in receipt of massive subsidies.

Given your desire for your MP to have the best of everything in this respect (at the taxpayers expense), how would you suggest it enables them to empathise with their constituents own experience?


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: onthecushions on March 27, 2023, 18:01:13

Empathy isn't much use if your MP can't do the job effectively.

MP's spend much of their time on constituents' personal problems.

The reason that MP's are now paid is to allow those without private means (i.e Labour) to serve.

They are still not paid enough to be truly independent, particularly in SW1/division bell accommodation and so are prey to the influence of wealthy MP's.

We get what we pay for.

OTC



Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 27, 2023, 18:35:57

Empathy isn't much use if your MP can't do the job effectively.

MP's spend much of their time on constituents' personal problems.

The reason that MP's are now paid is to allow those without private means (i.e Labour) to serve.

They are still not paid enough to be truly independent, particularly in SW1/division bell accommodation and so are prey to the influence of wealthy MP's.

We get what we pay for.

OTC



You genuinely feel that an MP can't do their job effectively without the provision of full fare first class rail tickets?

God knows how the rest of us manage, but we seem to.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2023, 20:02:19
A lot of their work consists of making phone calls. Many confidential


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 27, 2023, 20:36:52
A lot of their work consists of making phone calls. Many confidential

As do Solicitors, Doctors, Servicemen and a whole host of others. Like most of the population, they seem to manage without hitting the public purse for the most expensive category of rail ticket available.

At a time when many are struggling to even put food on the table, more than ever, more than anyone else, MPs should be setting an example.



Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2023, 20:43:16
And you can imagine the absolute furore should they be overheard!

No, I’m with OTC on this. There are many other expenses they claim that they shouldn’t though! This is pne that needs allowing


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 27, 2023, 21:03:14
And you can imagine the absolute furore should they be overheard!

No, I’m with OTC on this. There are many other expenses they claim that they shouldn’t though! This is pne that needs allowing

Bizarre.

That said, having checked the IPSA website,  in fact MPs can only claim as follows....

"For journeys made by rail, reimbursement will be limited to the rate of an "anytime standard open" ticket for the journey prevalent at the time of the claim. [9.15]

MPs travelling on sleeper train services are additionally entitled to claim for a sleeper supplement for a single occupancy berth. [9.16]"

They can, in fact,  only claim for 1st class fares if they're cheaper than the standard open fare......possible on advance fares perhaps? Or is that not realistic?


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Trowres on March 27, 2023, 21:49:26
And you can imagine the absolute furore should they be overheard!

Are you suggesting that they cannot be overheard in first class, or that being overheard in first class has no consequence?


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 27, 2023, 22:49:49
They can, in fact,  only claim for 1st class fares if they're cheaper than the standard open fare......possible on advance fares perhaps? Or is that not realistic?

I’m glad you pointed that out, as Broadgage had suggested it earlier in the thread to rather deaf ears, and I was about to say that I thought that was the case these days.

However, there will no doubt be some (plenty?) of occasions when a first class advance comes in cheaper than the full standard fare.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Electric train on March 28, 2023, 07:04:19
They can, in fact,  only claim for 1st class fares if they're cheaper than the standard open fare......possible on advance fares perhaps? Or is that not realistic?

I’m glad you pointed that out, as Broadgage had suggested it earlier in the thread to rather deaf ears, and I was about to say that I thought that was the case these days.

However, there will no doubt be some (plenty?) of occasions when a first class advance comes in cheaper than the full standard fare.

I agree

MP's expenses are monitored they can only claim what is deemed to be reasonable and will have guidance on what they can claim.

For an MP that has several hours travel back to their constituency travelling First Class and being able to work in comfort in my my mind is justifiable use of public money; we after all expect our MP's to work on out behalf and to be visible in the constituency, they would soon be slatted for living in London and never going back to Cornwall, Lancaster ................... etc.

   


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 28, 2023, 07:37:51
They can, in fact,  only claim for 1st class fares if they're cheaper than the standard open fare......possible on advance fares perhaps? Or is that not realistic?

I’m glad you pointed that out, as Broadgage had suggested it earlier in the thread to rather deaf ears, and I was about to say that I thought that was the case these days.

However, there will no doubt be some (plenty?) of occasions when a first class advance comes in cheaper than the full standard fare.

I agree

MP's expenses are monitored they can only claim what is deemed to be reasonable and will have guidance on what they can claim.

For an MP that has several hours travel back to their constituency travelling First Class and being able to work in comfort in my my mind is justifiable use of public money; we after all expect our MP's to work on out behalf and to be visible in the constituency, they would soon be slatted for living in London and never going back to Cornwall, Lancaster ................... etc.

   

Most MPs live in London during the week - they claim allowances to cover this or their constituency home.

It's vanishingly rare for the Commons to sit on a Friday so it's pretty easy for an MP to plan their journey and book an advance ticket if they are travelling back to their constituency by rail, and indeed for their return to London  -  I believe the patronage of MPs is one of the reasons the Riviera Sleeper has survived!

If, and only if, it's cheaper to travel First class in the circumstances described in the regulations then obviously this should be permitted for the sake of the public purse.

Otherwise, they should take the opportunity to enjoy the company of us mere mortals for a few hours, who after all are paying their wages......and expenses.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 28, 2023, 09:24:31
Having just caught up with this thread, I’m looking forward to seeing Rishi Sunak arriving at No.10 in his new prime ministerial beige Toyota Yaris.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 28, 2023, 10:56:50
You do of course reach the point where you need to provide enough of an incentive for talented people to want to become MP’s in the first place.  The annual salary is very low (£85k) compared with similar jobs people of the required talent can get in the private sector.  Some form of perks for the job are necessary and inevitable, otherwise you simply won’t get MP’s that are good enough.

Whilst public money should not be squandered I personally have no problem with what current guidelines state in that if a first class advance is cheaper than the standard single that should be allowed, and indeed encouraged where possible as it does provide a better work environment.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: JayMac on March 28, 2023, 17:28:37
You do of course reach the point where you need to provide enough of an incentive for talented people to want to become MP’s in the first place.  The annual salary is very low (£85k) compared with similar jobs people of the required talent can get in the private sector.  Some form of perks for the job are necessary and inevitable, otherwise you simply won’t get MP’s that are good enough.

The basic MP salary is over twice the UK's average annual salary, plus already generous expenses that give an average cost to the public purse of over £200,000 per MP. That's plenty enough already. If MPs or prospective MPs can't get by on that then tough. Stand down or don't stand. If their talent is valued by the private sector and that's where the money is, go there.

I don't buy the talent argument. There's been precious little of it on show in recent years.

This is public service. Not a gravy train.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: onthecushions on March 28, 2023, 17:40:23

In my job before retirement, we were expensed with first class rail fares and were a lot less important to the country than MP's.

When that was ended, we just went by car, avoiding the standard class scrum.

My HSBC CEO gets £5M a year. Paying MP's £85k/yr in SW1 is a recipe for incompetence and corruption.

Singapore shows the way pay by paying premium rates for the public service (and expecting performance).

OTC



Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Marlburian on March 28, 2023, 17:44:04
You do of course reach the point where you need to provide enough of an incentive for talented people to want to become MP’s in the first place.  The annual salary is very low (£85k) compared with similar jobs people of the required talent can get in the private sector.  Some form of perks for the job are necessary and inevitable, otherwise you simply won’t get MP’s that are good enough.

The basic MP salary is over twice the UK's average annual salary, plus already generous expenses that give an average cost to the public purse of over £200,000 per MP. That's plenty enough already. If MPs or prospective MPs can't get by on that then tough. Stand down or don't stand. If their talent is valued by the private sector and that's where the money is, go there.

I don't buy the talent argument. There's been precious little of it on show in recent years.

This is public service. Not a gravy train.

And who would replace them? People of less ability whose talents are insufficient to be valued enough by the private sector? I would be prepared to see an MP's salary approaching £100K provided they didn't take outside work - such as several were prepared to do recently: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-tory-mps-ask-10k-29551052 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-tory-mps-ask-10k-29551052).


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Trowres on March 28, 2023, 20:47:15
Maybe there is some merit in paying MPs £100k? - provided working practices are modernised


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: TaplowGreen on March 29, 2023, 05:19:03

In my job before retirement, we were expensed with first class rail fares and were a lot less important to the country than MP's.

When that was ended, we just went by car, avoiding the standard class scrum.

My HSBC CEO gets £5M a year. Paying MP's £85k/yr in SW1 is a recipe for incompetence and corruption.

Singapore shows the way pay by paying premium rates for the public service (and expecting performance).

OTC




......it would seem obscenely high salaries are a similar recipe (although perhaps with more expensive ingredients?)  :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59689581


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 29, 2023, 06:26:30
Maybe there is some merit in paying MPs £100k? - provided working practices are modernised

Don’t they already have Sunday in the working week? ;)


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: onthecushions on March 29, 2023, 11:13:27

......it would seem obscenely high salaries are a similar recipe (although perhaps with more expensive ingredients?)  :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59689581

I think that there's probably a "bathtub" curve for salaries; too little and the job's done badly or not at all, too much and you've  a complacent fat-cat, living on another planet from both his employees and customers.

OTC


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: johnneyw on March 29, 2023, 12:08:59
As the Chief Accountant for the South Western Electricity Board in the days before privatisation, my father was entitled to claim for first class rail travel.  His stance however was that, as an employee in a state industry, it was more appropriate to travel standard class, especially as overcrowding never seemed to be an issue on the odd occasion he had to use the train for business purposes.


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: Witham Bobby on March 29, 2023, 14:28:16
You do of course reach the point where you need to provide enough of an incentive for talented people to want to become MP’s in the first place.  The annual salary is very low (£85k) compared with similar jobs people of the required talent can get in the private sector.  Some form of perks for the job are necessary and inevitable, otherwise you simply won’t get MP’s that are good enough.

Whilst public money should not be squandered I personally have no problem with what current guidelines state in that if a first class advance is cheaper than the standard single that should be allowed, and indeed encouraged where possible as it does provide a better work environment.

I've long held the view that an MP's salary should be linked to the average salary in his or her constituency.  Probably not a multiple of 1, but maybe 2 or 2.5 times average.  This should keep MPs fighting for their constituent's economic benefit and (please) stop them all toeing the party line so much (particularly when they're members of the governing party(ies).


Title: Re: MP - expenses - first class travel
Post by: onthecushions on March 29, 2023, 17:23:30

The regressive nature of taxation means that you have to have a gross income much higher than 2.5 times the average, to take home a disposable 2.5 times the average. Also, one's expenses are proportionately higher in Council tax, clothing etc etc.

Lower pay could work if the necessaries were provided separately (not as an expenses claim), such as accomodation, travel, food on site, etc.

My retired railway officer friends have silver and gold passes, after all.

OTC



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