Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm starting to get a little narked about an increasingly regular delay (at least once or twice a week now) of about 4 minutes to the departure of the 17:36 Paddington-Oxford. The reason why I'm cheesed-off is because it seems to be simply to allow the early arrival of a train from Bristol in an adjacent platform! Tonight's 4-minute late departure turned into a 9-minute late arrival at Twyford thanks to a loss of path so I feel it's time to ask those helpful people here 'in the know' if they could please help with any suggestions as to what's happening?

This is the scenario. The 17:36 is scheduled to leave from Platform 9 and travel on Line 4. I'm sitting on the left-hand side of the front coach at the far end of the platform where I can clearly see the signals and activity in the station 'throat' out as far as Royal Oak and just beyond. At 17:36 the departure signal remains at red even though the 'throat' is completely clear of trains (and I know for certain from observation that we have a driver!). At about 17:37 or even 17:38 an incoming HST appears passing Royal Oak on Line 3 and runs straight into Platform 8. According to planajourney.co.uk which has platform numbers, it looks like this train is the 16:00 from Bristol TM which is not due to arrive in Paddington until 17:42! Once this train is in Platform 8 the 17:36 then gets the green light from Platform 9 for Line 4 but by now the time is 17:40.

My questions are therefore as follows:

1. Why does this early arrival get so much precedence over an on-time departure?
2. Is there really a routing conflict which would prevent my train from departing on Line 4 whilst the other train arrives on Line 3?
3. Is there no way that my train could depart on Line 5?
4. Is there maybe some other reason for this? (e.g. points in the 'throat' currently out of commission or some fault with the Automatic Route Setting?)

I thank you in advance...

::)

Direct your question to the signalman! >:( >:( >:(

I too get frustrated when hammering along the up main through Iver and around the bend only to see a doulbe yellow signal on the end of West Drayton station. This tells me that once again a HST travelling at 125mph is brought to stand for a Heathrow Express going only at 50. This aint occasional either I would say it happens 75% of the time!

Fair comment, 12hoursunday.

As a matter of interest, is there any formal process for train staff to raise such concerns / issues with signal staff, with a view to resolving them by getting things changed, if necessary?

I've overheard a couple of staff on my local commuter train comparing notes about their experiences of apparently odd decisions by a signalman that have 'adversely' affected them, and I wondered then whether the signal staff themselves are actually ever made aware of these views?

From a passenger's point of view I agree with 12hoursunday, on many occasions over the past few years my morning train has been brought to a stand alongside the flyover at Airport Junction even though it's been on time. I'd love to hear a signaller's point of view to help me understand why these seemingly pointless delays take place. There may well be perfectly logical reasons and if so then fair enough, but I can't see any logic in them at the moment!

Didn't realise you were a driver 12hoursunday  :D

There are number of potential reasons (albeit very unlikely):
*Stock was needed to be stepped up to another service as the stock for that service got delayed
*There might have been a delayed train behind the Bristol train that needed to be in Paddington
*The train was not actually from Bristol!
etc

Although it is very annoying especially your path is very tight as I presume you have to slow down to cross over onto the reliefs to stop at Twyford?

I'm wondering if the second of your reasons is the most likely, maybe to clear a queue of closely-running trains arriving almost together? But on the other hand I would think it equally important that the 17:36 gets through Reading on time in the middle of the evening peak!

The route of the 17:36 is to cross from the relief to main just before Ealing Broadway and then to cross back to the relief at Maidenhead where it has its first stop. Normally this works well if departure from PAD is on time and it's not often that the train is brought to a stand. However last night, presumably because we had the 17:45 HST on our tail, we were switched to the relief at Slough West and had to run behind a stopper.

With the signalmen now working for Networkrail and the trains being run by TOCs they are not their trains anymore. So what's the incentive. Although there was always rivalary between drivers and signalmen there was at least a Divisional manager who controlled both and could bang their heads together if the rivalry got too silly.

BBM With Padd it's probably not the signalmen but the programming of the ARS. Looking at the layout from platform 8/9 they converge at points 8022 and run bidirectional to 8042B crossover from Line 3 to 4. There is no link from platform 9 to line 5 before points 8022. So that's why the incoming HST blocks you. Need to check if ARS gives priority to incoming services. The delay in getting the green is that the ARS seems to take an innordinate amount of time to decide what to do next, considering it's supposed to be a computer.

Re West Drayton the single yellow on UM13 (auto)  is a persistant aspect because it is last Slough panel signal the next is the first Slough New, which because it's worked from the IECC stays at red until cleared for a train. Also of course because BAA paid for the electrification for the Heathrow express they get priority. So coupled with the slow response time of the ARS, before it starts the sequence to clear the Up Main even if the Heathrow is off the junction and through Hayes you get checked. Couple this with APT which restricts the driver from accelerating until he picks up the next ATP beacon. Which why you can go from a single yellow at West Drayton to a green at flyover junction. If there two HSTs following fairly closely and the first is checked then the knock-on effect for the second is considerably multiplied because it will be on green autos through Slough and Langley and then hit the double yellow. But because the IECC signal has to revert to danger and then be cleared by the ARS rather than  being cleared from track circuits  passed  by the previous train which is almost instantaneous. The following train  be on more yellows and, therefore, be speed restricted by its ATP for longer.

When I was travelling regularly we were often overtaken just ouside Slough by an HST going full chat on the Up Main, only to overtake it around West Drayton and for it not to pass us again until around Hanwell and we had stopped at Hayes.

Of course the Old route from 9 was Line 4 Westbourne Park line 3 to the dreaded SN109 then Down Main, interesting that they are still running Down Relief to Acton. I thought SN109 had been bought back into use now, the speed is restricted, TPWS is installed and flank protection has been provided..

Thank You eightf48544 for a long, interesting and informed reply!


Yes, the ARS is one of my theories as to the cause of delays.


That route was allegedly brought back into use over 2 years ago (I've just Googled for references and in February 2006 NR indeed announced that it had been brought back). Ever since then I've kept an eye open to see if any train I've taken which has left PAD on Line 4 and which is due to go over onto the Down Main has ever taken that route. 16 months later I can confidently say that I have NEVER been on a train which has used that route in that time. The normal procedure for the 17:36 is that it runs on the Down Relief to Acton where it's usually slowed (but rarely stopped) to allow an up HEX to pass and then it continues on the Main to Maidenhead. Sometimes we leave PAD on Line 3 but it's not usually an advantage as then we normally get stopped at Westbourne Park to allow an incoming HST to cross ahead of us onto Line 1. On odd occasions we do get a clear run on Line 3 through to the Down main and then we're 2 minutes early into Maidenhead!  :)

Could it be that the dispatcher hasn't yet started the Train Ready To Start button?
Which in turn tells the signaller that the service is ready to depart, and if clear, the route will be setup.

The dispatchers on Platform 9 seem to be pretty alert, I've often noticed them going to the front of the train a few minutes before departure to check that there's a driver although I must admit I can't say for certain that I remember seeing a dispatcher yesterday. I'll keep an eye on what happens over the next few weeks although I'll need to leave work early today so I won't be getting the 17:36 tonight.

 ;D

My understanding (non-professional!) is that ARS aims to set routes so that each train has two greens ahead where possible. So an incoming train will trigger ARS to set up the route into Paddington when it is still x distance away - so if the 1736 hasn't had its route set / TRTS pressed when the incoming train has passed that 'x' point the line will be considered clear and the incoming train will be routed into the platform. A human might notice that the inbound HST has a few minutes to spare and have a quick check for imminent departures - but would ARS consider that?

I think the answer might lie in this quote from the Rules of the Plan for this area ^ http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/Rules%20Of%20The%20Route/Outrotp8/gw08p.pdf (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/Rules%20Of%20The%20Route/Outrotp8/gw08p.pdf) ^ page 95:


Obviously on the final approach to Padd there's not much that can be done, apart from signallers staying on the ball and intervening soon enough if they're aware of any regular problem cases like the 1736 seems to be. I suppose platform staff being aware and operating TRTS 'too' early might look like a solution but I could see that being a problem itself (and would ARS just ignore until nearly 1736 anyway?).

Just checked with informed source ARS gives priority to incoming trains at Padd. The other points made above are also valid and help compound the seemingly slow response of the ARS.

With an NX box the signalman can to an extent preprogramme the next route even if it is not clear. As soon a the blocking train clears the final conflicting track circuit the relays start clicking and set the new route. Whilst ARs is still scratching its head and saying let's see what train is next.

Thanks, Hafren and eightf48544, for your very helpful replies to that question.  :)


Yes, I did wonder whether that might turn out to be rather a silly question, when I posted it!  ::)

Chris, if such a process existed it would mean the Signallers might have to admit they are not perfect.

I had a day worth of grief from a signaller once because I had the "cheek" to say he'd cleared the 'wrong signal' (a green on the Down signal instead of the Up one.)

Thanks seconded from me as well!  :)

Just to record that tonight's 17:36 left on time (even though the ECS from OOC didn't arrive until about 17:30!), but about 30 seconds before departure I noticed an HST on Line 3 coming to a stand at Royal Oak. It was still there as we departed on Line 4 so it would be stationary for at least 2 minutes before it could continue. I couldn't see the window labels so I couldn't identify the train but I'd guess it was the 16:00 from Bristol TM waiting to go into Platform 8. So maybe incoming trains don't always get priority - unless of course the dispatcher had pressed the Train Ready to Start button a little earlier this time? But all the same, it still seems crazy to me that the track layout isn't designed to allow a train to arrive into Platform 8 from Line 3 at the same time one departs from Platform 9 towards Line 4!  ???

Fair few trains came in late during the peak, so wouldn't assume it was the 16:00 ex Bristol.

Tonight an HST appeared on Line 3 at about 17:35 and arrived into Platform 8 at 17:37. And yes it did have window labels showing it had started at Bristol TM! (and there were definitely no other trains right behind it.) So we departed 2 minutes late at 17:38 but thanks to delays crossing from relief to main and back to relief, arrival at Maidenhead was 6 minutes late. Maybe that's no big deal, but it's just so annoying that these delays are being caused by an early train! Grrrrrrrrr!  >:(

1A24 1600 BRI-PAD arr PAD 5 early p8 at 1737

To make up for it being about half hour late yesterday :D

Another thought, I seem to remember being told that during reconstruction to 6 lines a a right hand crossover from platforms 8 to 9 to line 5 was missed out as there wasn't room to fit it when the time came. You can see where it might have been if you look carefully coming in on Line 6. This would of course helped  clear 4 to 7 for inbound trains.

By the way I travelled every weekday through  both of Paddington's remodelling/resignallings. Don't remeber much about the 60s one but the last was actually done quite well by BR at least they didn't totally close the station for long periods.

Hi,

I thought I might bring this topic back up again as I've had a few repeat occurrences of possibly a similar thing happening a few times recently concerning the 18.45 (PADD - SWAN) and 18.48 (PADD - CHELT) HSTs from Paddington and yesterday's occurrence has urged me to post about it.

I commute to and from Reading and the earliest train I get back in the evening is the 18.45.  I should point out that I don't get this train every day - about once a week I'd say.  However, when the Bakerloo line gets held up etc I often only have a few minutes to jump on board and I often find that the 18.45 is packed - esp if it's leaving from the unbarriered Platform 8.  Therefore, I quickly run across the bridge to Platform 3 and get the 18.48 instead.

I then find that the 18.48 sometimes soon passes the 18.45 just outside of Paddington - the 18.45 after coming out of Platform 8 from what I could tell yesterday was slowing to cross and waiting for an incoming service to pass.  I've had the reverse frustrating experience of standing on the packed 18.45 thinking at least I'll get into Reading a few minutes early only to watch the 18.48 pass us by!  I'm sure most of the time this problem doesn't happen but when it does it seems to maybe be that the 18.45 "suffers" from the fact it's leaving from Platform 8?  I am also possibly guessing that maybe with a minute delay to the 18.45 it then becomes more sensible to allow the 18.48 ahead and other incoming services past which is why it's done.

Anyway, I thought I may post about it in case anyone else has had the same experience or knowledge about it.

Thanks,

Boppy.

Too many trains, not enough route capacity, and the lack of any grade seperated junctions outside of Paddington all contribute to a lack of consistancy. Simple as that. If I was a Reading commuter I'd hang on until the 18:51 Oxford which even as an Adelante has plenty of seats, and despite the stop at Slough, it's nearly always waiting the 18:45/18:48 to clear Reading platform 4.

Yep the 18.51 is a handy spacious option I agree.  Only reason I tend not to take it is I end up missing the connecting bus home.  I guess that's what is on my mind when I'm trying to juggle which train out of the 18.45 or 18.48 will get into Reading first so I catch my bus  :)

In theory the route for the 18:45 is Platform 8 Line 4 to SN87 Westbourne Park Line 3 to SN109 to Down Main. However since you know when, this route was barred. However, I believe it has now been  reauthorised, but it seems not to be used.

Using this route means the 18:48 could leave before the 18:45 on Line 1 whilst the 18:45 passed it on Line 4/3. The Up train would be on Line 2 so as soon as it cleared the Line 3 to Line 2 crossover 8057 West of SN 109  the 18:45 could proceed to the Down Main in front of the 18:48.

However, as this route is no longer used the 18:45 either has to cross to Line 2 right at the platform end or run Down relief to Acton West and overtake the 18:48. However if there is an incoming trains which would normally have priority the 18:45 has to wait for it to be in the platform, rather than just past Ladbroke Grove another 2 or three minutes holdup. Also as most Up trains seem to use  Line 3 From SN120 (Up Main to Lines 2/3 Junction signal) means Line 3 is not available for Down trains. So the 18:48 has a clear run down Line 1 onto the Down Main overtaking the 18:45 whilst it is wating to cross to Line 2 after the incoming train. Whilst the down relief to Acton is a possibility for the 18:45 it would behind the 18:44 and before the 18:47. Also it has to cross the Up Main at Acton so it would probably either have to wait for or hold up a train on the Up Main.

As far as I can see from the train the point blades on the 8057 crossover from Line 3 to Line 2 west of SN109 have been physically removed so there is no currently no chance of the route being used. It seems to me that in certain respects the post-1992 layout of the track is more restrictive than the old one. In the 'old days' I often remember crossing from Relief to Main at the erstwhile Portobello Junction just to the west of Westbourne Park. Now if a train can't get to Line 3 at Royal Oak it has to continue to Acton before it can cross to the Down Main.

Wow  :o - thanks for the in depth replies!

If that route is no longer viable so that a crossing over delay is a regular issue for the 18:45 is there scope for simply switching which platform they both leave from? - i.e. organise the HST on platform 3 to become the 18:45 and the one on platform 8 to be the 18:48?  That way the 18:45 simply always runs ahead and the 18:48 can cross over where necessary onto by then what should be a clear down main.

Or am I opening a major re-organising can of worms here in regards to time required for switch around, other paths being blocked from platform 3 at around 18:45, fuel considerations for which HST can run which route at that instance etc...

Thanks for that BBM I've not been into Padd for a while I'll look out next time, With HSTS and Heathrow expresses having ATP and everything else having TPWS I can't see any reason at all for not using the route especialy as I also believe flank protection has been provided at 8059B to divert LINE 3 trains spadding SN109 onto the Down Relief.


Probably  a small can of worms. It may be possible to swap the platforms of the 17:45/8 but it would depend on when the incoming train arrives so if the stock for 18:45 arrives first and platform 3 is not clear then it would have to go elsewhere. Similarly if the stock for the 48 arrives first and 8 is not available the same thing, thus it cascades.

As a general point I would have thought FGW would want both the 45 and 48 behind the gate line rather than the Swansea running from 8.

Going back to my original post, lately the 17:36's departure is not being delayed so often now by the early arrival of the 16:00 from Bristol TM but last night it did happen and consequently departure from PAD was 2 minutes late. However the good news is that we got a straight clear run via Line 3 to the Down Main and arrival at Maidenhead was one minute early! :) Then an on-time departure from there followed by a 90mph run on the down relief saw another minute-early arrival at Twyford. It just shows what can happen when NR get their act together!

This old post took a bit of finding, but after being out of commission since the Ladbroke Grove crash and removed entirely about three years ago, this set of points leading from Line 3 to Line 2 (protected by SN109) are now being reinstated - that is the reason for engineering works taking place in the Paddington area recently.

When commissioned again, it should lead to a slight improvement as trains can once again use Lines 4 and 3 much further from the station before being able to still access the Down Main line.  There is also increased flexibility in routing ECS trains off of the Old Oak Common Flyover.

Thanks for the update Indusrty Insider.

Re instatement of Line 4 as outbound to Down Main at Ladbroke Grove will bring back flexibility for trains leaving 8 9 10/11 scheduled DM.

With slower speeds with ATP, AWS & TPWS and flank protection to Down Relief plus fibre optic signal heads a SPAD of SN109 should not lead to disaster.

Well, it took a while to finish the job, but after laying near the site for ten months the remaining parts of this set of points have now been installed.  Still to be commisioned, but hopefully soon!

Probably over Xmas/New Year when the Paddington Relock project is commissioned.

And it took a heck of a long while to commission, but finally routing from SN109 (Line 3) to the Down Main or the 'Engine & Carriage Line' AKA Old Oak Common Flyover, is now possible as this set of points is now in use.  This restores the full set of routing options that were available up until the Ladbroke Grove accident.