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Journey by Journey => London to the Cotswolds => Topic started by: supersonic on June 26, 2008, 12:20:11



Title: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: supersonic on June 26, 2008, 12:20:11
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: smithy on June 26, 2008, 18:04:02
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..


that will not happen in my opinion,LM and xc rely heavily on worcs depot usually there is around 15-20 sets a night on there plus 1 turbo.and there is nowhere else to stable sets around worcs


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 26, 2008, 18:54:35
With investment in walking routes, vegetation clearance and lighting, there would be room for extra sets to be stabled in the under used 'goods yard' behind Shrub Hill station.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 26, 2008, 22:08:56
Quote
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..

Would fit in with what Richard Rowland and Mike Carroll said at the public meetings in Charlbury earlier in the year, when it was made clear they were looking at providing stabling facilities at Worcester, at the very least to do away with the empty running to and from Hereford by the HST that forms the first train from Malvern in the mornings - plus associated taxi journeys for the crews.

On top of this there is all the empty running that the two Abergavenny/Hereford HST services do via Newport, to and from St Philips Marsh in Bristol (what ungodly hour do the crews have to get up at to work them?).

Since the Worcester crews are now all HST-trained, which wasn't the case until last December, it would make sense if these services could be operated and crewed from Worcester - though it may be curtains for the Abergavenny starts in the mornings, but there are Arriva trains running about 15-20 minutes ahead of both the HSTs at present, so connections are possible if these were to start at Hereford instead.

The 165 already overnights at Worcester (and another 166 did until last December) - works the early train from Evesham into Worcester, then the morning halts train to Oxford.

And as industry insider notes, there's no shortage of railway-owned land and sidings around Shrub Hill station suitable for the job, though if they leave it too long, I expect some developer would be happy to take it off Network Rail's hands...

Quote
xc rely heavily on worcs depot

Not for much longer, as they are abandoning Worcester services - by the end of this year?


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Btline on June 26, 2008, 22:19:07
Lots of new industrial units are going up on the ex goods yard at Worcester.

I know it would never all be used as it is so big, but it does make me a little annoyed.

To think that a motorail ran from Worcester in the 1970s (apparently).


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: 12hoursunday on June 28, 2008, 12:24:02
Quote
Rumours flying around, are that from the december timetable, FGW will have its own stabling point at Worcester, to keep these sets:

1 x 165/166
3 x HST
2 x 158

This will be kept each night a worcester and form services next morning..

Would fit in with what Richard Rowland and Mike Carroll said at the public meetings in Charlbury earlier in the year, when it was made clear they were looking at providing stabling facilities at Worcester, at the very least to do away with the empty running to and from Hereford by the HST that forms the first train from Malvern in the mornings


There was talk a few years ago about First Great Western Trains building and opening a depot at Gloucester. That got knocked on the head because of the cost.
.

On top of this there is all the empty running that the two Abergavenny/Hereford HST services do via Newport, to and from St Philips Marsh in Bristol (what ungodly hour do the crews have to get up at to work them?).




Drivers for the First Malvern book on at 01.55 Guards are based at Worcester.
Drivers for the first service from Hereford books on about 03.35 Guards at about 03.15
Drivers for the other Hereford book on at about 04.30ish and Guards at 04.20


Since the Worcester crews are now all HST-trained, which wasn't the case until last December, it would make sense if these services could be operated and crewed from Worcester - though it may be curtains for the Abergavenny starts in the mornings, but there are Arriva trains running about 15-20 minutes ahead of both the HSTs at present, so connections are possible if these were to start at Hereford instead.




Ah! but there are no drivers based at Worcester. So it's a taxi for someone at Bristol or Oxford. Aberganvenny trains would beeter worked first from St phillips Marsh rather Worcester in my opinion.



that will not happen in my opinion,LM and xc rely heavily on worcs depot usually there is around 15-20 sets a night on there plus 1 turbo.and there is nowhere else to stable sets around worcs


A revamp and clear up of the budlia around the back of the station would be necessary.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 28, 2008, 16:33:51
Quote
Aberganvenny trains would beeter worked first from St phillips Marsh rather Worcester in my opinion.

But how many people actually do travel from Abergavenny anyway? It takes about an hour longer than going via Newport, even with the connecting time. And they don't serve Abergavenny on the way back to Bristol at night.

Quote
Ah! but there are no drivers based at Worcester. So it's a taxi for someone at Bristol or Oxford.

Well, maybe there should be, since there are the train managers and catering crews at WOS already. When the rest of the Cotswold Line services were worked by a completely different train fleet, it obviously made sense to operate the Hereford services out of Bristol, but now that all but a handful of trains are HSTs, that special status has disappeared.

Given the distances involved and the times of these taxi trips, never mind the rocketing cost of fuel, taxi-ing drivers to and from Hereford (for the Malvern train) and Worcester (for the morning halts train and home after the 21.48 from London gets to WOS) must cost a small fortune every week, even if it's on a long-term contract. I thought they were supposed to be running a railway here, not enriching the competition.

I notice on the FGW website they are looking for drivers at Gloucester at the moment. If they signed for HSTs that could cut down on the taxis (they could share with whoever's off to drive the 158s to Bristol and beyond) and the distance on the road, give crews an extra hour (or two) in bed and offer a more productive use of their time on duty.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 28, 2008, 20:21:13

Given the distances involved and the times of these taxi trips, never mind the rocketing cost of fuel, taxi-ing drivers to and from Hereford (for the Malvern train) and Worcester (for the morning halts train and home after the 21.48 from London gets to WOS) must cost a small fortune every week, even if it's on a long-term contract. I thought they were supposed to be running a railway here, not enriching the competition.


At the moment the driver (Oxford based) who works the 21:48 Paddington-Worcester from Oxford stays overnight and returns working the 'halts' train the next morning, so taxis to/from Oxford are usually not required except on Saturday night and Sunday morning. However, with about 4 hours at Worcester doing nothing, the drivers time could hardly be considered productive!

There used to be a daily taxi in the early morning from Oxford to Worcester and late evening from Worcester to Oxford up until the first up and down Malvern train changed to a HST last December. I believe up until then the annual taxi contract was worth about ^40k for this contract alone (including the weekend ones).

I wonder what the annual taxi bill for FGW is? After all, they have to fork out on plenty of them to get stranded punters home too! Mind you, compared with the Freight companies (whose drivers seen to spend half their shift getting taxied somewhere), It's probably quite small!

There have been rumours of a dedicated driver depot at Worcester for FGW rescently. There's no reason why this couldn't happen, and also there's no reason why drivers from London Midland based there couldn't be 'hired' to drive FGW trains - that is what happened until around the turn of this decade.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: 12hoursunday on June 29, 2008, 14:33:06

When the rest of the Cotswold Line services were worked by a completely different train fleet, it obviously made sense to operate the Hereford services out of Bristol, but now that all but a handful of trains are HSTs, that special status has disappeared.
.

there has never been more than a handful of HSTs returning to/from Bristol (2 in the morning and 2 in the Evening.)





I wonder what the annual taxi bill for FGW is? After all, they have to fork out on plenty of them to get stranded punters home too!



Not always. Remember, any taxi's used for passengers for trains delays only get paid for when the delay belongs to FGW. Anything for say signalling or freight train failure gets charged back to whoever the delay is caused by!



There have been rumours of a dedicated driver depot at Worcester for FGW rescently. There's no reason why this couldn't happen, and also there's no reason why drivers from London Midland based there couldn't be 'hired' to drive FGW trains - that is what happened until around the turn of this decade.

First I've heard of these rumours, and I keep my ear to the ground! As for the hiring in of another companies drivers I find this hard to believe. Currently First hire in Arriva Trains Wales drvers/guards to work Cardiff-Portsmouth services and I think some train crew from a Company on the Southern (not sure which). But this will be changing as they are taking it all back in house. Also with their recruitment program of drivers and guards ongoing and then the giving away of work to another depot yet alone another company doesn't seem like good buisness sense to me!


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 29, 2008, 17:07:02

First I've heard of these rumours, and I keep my ear to the ground! As for the hiring in of another companies drivers I find this hard to believe. Currently First hire in Arriva Trains Wales drvers/guards to work Cardiff-Portsmouth services and I think some train crew from a Company on the Southern (not sure which). But this will be changing as they are taking it all back in house. Also with their recruitment program of drivers and guards ongoing and then the giving away of work to another depot yet alone another company doesn't seem like good buisness sense to me!

Well, you heard it from me first then. Mind you of course, at least 75% of rumours within the industry turn out to be complete bobbins! ;) I think it is Redhill based drivers you speak of. And, yes, that may be changing, but local decisions are dictated by local circumstances. It MIGHT make more business sense to hire, say three Worcester based London Midland drivers a day from a passed out link of sixteen, than operate your own very small depot at that location (you'd want about eight to cover three daily diagrams with allowances for days off/sickness etc.) It might not. I'm not saying it will (that was not part of the rumour), but as it has been done before at this very location until fairly recently it would certainly not be unfeasable.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 30, 2008, 01:49:47
Quote
there has never been more than a handful of HSTs returning to/from Bristol (2 in the morning and 2 in the Evening.)

My point is that until last year the Herefords were the only HST turns on the route, so it made sense to operate them out of Bristol. The situation has now reversed completely, with just a couple of trains not booked for HSTs.

If the trains are going to spend the night at Worcester anyway, and the train managers are there, then surely someone can come up with a better way to do things than bringing drivers miles and miles up the M5 by taxi at dead of night? Especially if you save tens of thousands of pounds on those taxis or overnight lodging into the bargain.

And running to and from Bristol is fine when it all goes well, but when it doesn't - eg the empty stock gets stranded behind broken-down freights somewhere between Newport and Hereford; or so delayed off the depot that it gets sent straight to Worcester; or suffers a bad delay between Hereford and Worcester and gets routed via Stroud instead of along the Cotswold Line, to avoid problems on the single line - the consequences for passengers are plain awful, with a socking great hole blown in the Cotswold Line peak timetable and Oxford losing a fast train to London.

These points were conceded by Richard Rowland at Charlbury and he indicated they were one of the factors in them looking at stabling more trains at Worcester. I got the feeling that a set goes to Hereford each night more because there is siding space with power and water supplies available than because it is seen as the best solution. After all, Great Malvern back to Worcester is an eight-mile trip. Malvern-Hereford is nigh on 20 miles.

I doubt LM would want any Cotswold Line driving work back. The previous agreement was dropped at Central's request, as they were stepping up their services from Worcestershire into Birmingham and needed all their drivers. And would it really make sense to train the depot just so they could drive 125s for 50-odd miles to Oxford and back?


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: eightf48544 on June 30, 2008, 16:35:21
To my mind what this thread shows more than anything is the stupidity of the franchise system.

Worcester just illustrates the absurb lengths a TOC has to go to get stock, crews from its depots to their morning start up point because the railway is fragmented an each TOC only has use of its own depots.

It means that both LM and FGW probably have to have more drivers than would be needed to run the combined service based on Worcester. Also presumably some of the LM stabled sets start out in the morning with an empty stock run and return empty at night. So both TOCs are having excess ecs runs.

Under the curent system it can't be sorted out.

What you need is a Worcester depot with multi route, multi stock trained drivers who work the whole service out of Worcester.







Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 30, 2008, 23:33:54
The rumour mill is working overtime - I overheard a conversation today between two FGW staff saying about a FGW drivers depot being established at Worcester within the next year or two. According to them it will have an establishment of around 30 drivers and will take over (either partially or completely) the current depot work at Gloucester. Apparently it has already been discussed by the unions. Well, time will tell...  ::)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 17, 2009, 22:08:10
From the Worcester News (http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/local/4441516.Train_firm_could_face_fine_over_noise_levels/):

Quote
A train company could be fined ^1,000 for disturbing people by leaving the engines running through the night.

An environmental health boss at Worcester City Council said the noise of the trains at Kennet Green near Shrub Hill station in Worcester is ^unacceptable^ following a late night visit to the cul-de-sac.

An officer from the council visited people living in the area during the early hours of Tuesday morning following complaints.

Stationary trains have been parked opposite Kennet Green with their loud engines rumbling between midnight and 5am on weekdays for the last two months.

A letter of complaint from a resident has already been sent to First Great Western customer services about the noise from the trains used for the Worcester to London Paddington service.

Martin Gillies, the environmental health manager at the city council, said: ^First Great Western are saying that by keeping the engines running it^s providing heating and lighting and that the engine is difficult to start if left off for more than a few hours. That^s unacceptable. Unless it can be resolved informally, we will be serving a statutory abatement notice. That will require them to stop the noise nuisance. With them being a commercial operation, they face an unlimited fine. Initially, it^s ^1,000. If they break the notice we would appeal to magistrates for an abatement order. That would be a direction from the court that they need to comply with the requirements of that order.^

A spokesman for First Great Western declined to confirm if more trains would be parked overnight opposite Kennet Green in future, as some people claimed. She said: ^We leave one of two engines running on this train overnight to generate power so it can be cleaned and made ready for service the following morning. We know this has caused some noise problems with residents and are looking at how we can minimise this as much as possible.^

An informal meeting is due to take place with bosses at FGW this week.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: devon_metro on June 17, 2009, 22:12:27
What on earth do they expect  ???

As it turns out, the MTU engine requires warm conditions for optimum running. As there is no ETS supply in these sidings, an engine must be kept running.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: vacman on June 17, 2009, 22:25:11
ummmmm.....you live next to a railway line, you will hear trains, GET USED TO IT!!!


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: John R on June 17, 2009, 22:58:11
Yes, but I think it's unreasonable to leave a stationary train with engine running next to houses all night. You often see notices telling freight drivers to switch off when stationary, so the precent is there that it can cause disturbance.

But in general I do agree with the principle that if you live next to a railway you should expect noise of passing trains, especially if the railway was there before you.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Mookiemoo on June 17, 2009, 23:17:10
Have to say - im on the side of the residents

Passing through trains ok - constant rumbling all night which we all know is a new thing in the last several months!

If they stop it - makes my options limited but I wouldnt be surprised if they do


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: dog box on June 18, 2009, 01:16:19
As there is no shore supply at this location, how is the train supposed to be cleaned, kept secure and all the auxillary equipment keep running?.....you cant just jump into a train start it up and off you go.. it dont work like that.......it could always run  ECS To and from  the Marsh and burn a few more hundred gallons of fuel


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 18, 2009, 01:19:57
We could all see this one coming a mile off. It's been happening since the December t/t change, but now summer's here and people are starting to open their windows at night...

I do feel sorry for the residents, too. It is quite a racket going all night long, bearing in mind the one power car left on is also providing the ETH and therefore working harder than a normal idling engine. The houses aren't right next to the tracks, but the noise carries in the dead of night. Two possible solutions; 1) Shore supply is fitted in the siding concerned, or 2) The HST stables in the platform for the night (which has already happened on occasions).

I would bet on it being option 2, as it doesn't cost any money and freight trains can be routed round the train if needed. If stabled in the station and the far power car is left running there's nothing much except industrial units - I dare say you would still be able to hear it from the nearest houses if you strained your ears, but at an acceptable level, and with the depot in close proximity running engines are the norm through the night.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: moonrakerz on June 18, 2009, 08:24:06
I seem to recollect - about 50 years ago  - one of the foremost arguments for getting rid of steam was the fact that with a diesel or electric loco you could just "turn a key" or "press a button" and you were off. No more would we require hordes of men working through the night preparing the locos for the forthcoming days work.
Do we really now have locos that require the engines to be kept running all the time ? At least with steam locos they did allow the fires to go out now and again !


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Tim on June 18, 2009, 08:59:53
Doesn't it rather make a mokery of First's supposed environmental crudentials leaving an engine running all night?



Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: eightf48544 on June 18, 2009, 09:31:02
Put in a shore supply. It's only money and it solves all the problems.

It's called attention to detail.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: grahame on June 18, 2009, 10:08:17
Doesn't it rather make a mokery of First's supposed environmental crudentials leaving an engine running all night?

Andrew Griffiths was FGW's head of environmental stuff.  He lost his job through redundancy at the end of March.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: dog box on June 18, 2009, 10:25:55
FGW could always use a turbo instead and hear the backlash......and for people to actually think or imply the railway is no longer a 24hr a day operation is well rather silly and quite frankly an insult to the staff who work through the night to service and prep the trains, who clean up the bloody mess left by inconsiderate passengers, repair the damage caused by  the TAZ 09 graffitti brigade, who ferry drive and shunt throughout the night.
It could be worse you could have the Network Rail HOBC Train outside your bedroom window for a week


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on June 18, 2009, 10:43:08
it is a condition of the warranty of the MTU engines that they must be kept warm at all times.  Either by keeping one engine running or plugged into the mains. (Called shore supply)

As there is no shore supply at worcester then if you want to kepp an HST at Worcester then your only option is to keep the engine running.

Putting in a shore supply is quite expensive ;D


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Tim on June 18, 2009, 12:04:39

Putting in a shore supply is quite expensive ;D

I don't suppose it costs more than the total value of ticket sales on one peak-time HST.  And a shore supply would save fuel costs and possibly staffing costs (I assume that if the engine is left running, a driver, engineer or someone with at least the knowledge to shut the engine down if something goes wrong or bursts into flames has to be near the train at all times?)

There is a difference between passing train noise and the occassional short term distrubance caused by engineering work or a rail grinder (which most people will put up with as a reasonable part of living near a railway line) and the chronic noise of an engine running night after night which is only taking place because the TOC wants to save a few thousand pounds on a shore supply.

By analogy, I'd be tolerant of my neighbours having a noisy party on the occasional night or having a week of demolition work as part of living in a city, but if it went on for months I would complain.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 18, 2009, 12:16:11
Doing some maths: With an MTU engine costing about ^1 a minute in fuel to idle (which is a quoted statistic) for roughly 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week, adds up to over ^60000 per annum in lost fuel costs alone.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ReWind on June 18, 2009, 12:23:29
Ok Flamingo, but therefore there wont be no early morning cotswold line service to London for the commuters.

Cant win!!


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Tim on June 18, 2009, 14:30:26
Doing some maths: With an MTU engine costing about ^1 a minute in fuel to idle (which is a quoted statistic) for roughly 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week, adds up to over ^60000 per annum in lost fuel costs alone.

"shorely" a shore supply can't cost more than ^60 grand (now where did I put that coat?)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: moonrakerz on June 18, 2009, 15:16:39
it is a condition of the warranty of the MTU engines that they must be kept warm at all times. 

Did no one read the sales brochure ? I would think long and hard about buying a car that required that.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: oilengineer on June 18, 2009, 21:51:08
And just what part of the Engine MUST be kept warm at all times?


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 18, 2009, 22:33:51
I'm with the residents as well. Passing trains are one thing, but a running engine all the time is a beast of a different colour. Shut down, turn off all air-con & lights, lock up.

So how are the overnight servicing staff supposed to see what they are doing?

I'm not saying that the situation is satisfactory, but as things stand, there isn't really any alternative for the time being. I'm assuming that the servicing is done for FGW by LM staff from the sidings the other side of Shrub Hill station, so I expect that putting in a shore supply for FGW and sorting out who will plug it in and remove it will involve a mountain of paperwork and lawyers - and enormous expense.

It may well be the case that a shore supply is provided in the longer term, indeed FGW hinted last year that they were looking at the possibilities for improved stabling facilities at Worcester to cut down on empty stock running to and from Bristol, but I expect in the current economic climate that idea may have been put on the backburner until the disruption during redoubling is out of the way.

Note that the original story says that just one person has complained to FGW - it doesn't sound like the entire neighbourhood is being kept up - and that this has been going on for two months, whereas it has presumably been the case since mid-December. Perhaps, as Industry Insider hints, come autumn the problem will disappear again.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Oxman on June 18, 2009, 22:42:32
Worth noting that a shore supply was installed at Hereford to allow a set to stabled there overnight rather than run ECS to and from SPM. No doubt FGW will do the same at Worcester if the numbers work out.

The crew for the Hereford set are taxied to and from Bristol!


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 18, 2009, 22:53:35
Hereford was a repair job on a supply left from pre-HST days, when the Paddington ecs stabled there overnight.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 18, 2009, 23:38:34
Note that the original story says that just one person has complained to FGW - it doesn't sound like the entire neighbourhood is being kept up - and that this has been going on for two months, whereas it has presumably been the case since mid-December. Perhaps, as Industry Insider hints, come autumn the problem will disappear again.

To be fair, willc, the original article (which I didn't like to quote verbatim, for copyright reasons), does include the following:

Quote
Meanwhile, your Worcester News spoke to several people affected, some of whom plan to organise a petition unless something is done about the noise.

Lyn Soave, aged 56, of Kennet Green, said: ^There^s a train parked all night, running its engines. It is causing sleepless nights. It has been happening for at least a couple of months. We moved near a railway knowing the problem existed but you don^t expect trains to run all night.^

Linda Collins, 59, said: ^It^s terrible. It keeps me awake. I asked First Great Western to move the train to sidings away from our houses but nobody rang me back.^

Annette Williams, 50, said: ^It^s all lit up and the engine is going all night. It^s a constant, low rumbling. In summer you can^t have your windows open because of the noise.^

Alison Miles, 43, said: ^We have been told the train engine is kept running so they are able to start it in the morning. It can^t be good for the environment. ^


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 25, 2009, 18:16:22
From the Malvern Gazette (http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/4459608.Trains_cause_chaos/), 25/06/09:

Quote
Trains cause chaos

Malvern Wells residents say they are sick and tired of high-powered railway engines stopping at the end of their garden.

Jean and John Emmitt of Fruitlands say they have put up for 18 months with the nuisance caused by First Great Western's 125 trains parking outside their home with engines running several times a day. The sign showing the high speed train stopping point is located right next to their garden.

* See tomorrow's Malvern Gazette for full story


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: devon_metro on June 25, 2009, 19:12:12
I fail to see the "chaos" they speak of?


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 25, 2009, 19:19:34
Hmm ...  ::)

I sometimes think some journalists tend to use the word 'chaos' to mean 'anything, even slightly out of the ordinary, which will make a good headline for my article' ...  ;D


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 26, 2009, 00:53:50
It's almost laughable. And how many times a day it actually happen on a weekday? Well, since the Turbo replacements early in the year it happens just the once! On Sundays there are no occasions at all, so they only have the most tangible of a case on Saturdays when there are six booked turnbacks at Malvern Wells. So that's a grand total of 11 times each week! Chaos indeed...  ::)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: JayMac on June 26, 2009, 01:53:46
Interesting story.....I see this one 'rumbling' on for a while :P


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: smithy on June 26, 2009, 08:35:35
it is a condition of the warranty of the MTU engines that they must be kept warm at all times.  Either by keeping one engine running or plugged into the mains. (Called shore supply)

As there is no shore supply at worcester then if you want to kepp an HST at Worcester then your only option is to keep the engine running.

Putting in a shore supply is quite expensive ;D

it is not a condition of warranty that engine should be kept warm at all times.

basically the warranty condition is that engine can only be started once pre heated,in fact the computer will not allow starting until coolant reaches a certain temp.
it used to be the case with cummins/perkins when DMU's were released hence the pre heater below sole bar it is basically because there are no glow plugs like on cars.
as said best thing to do is stable in station with 1 power car running.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: inspector_blakey on June 26, 2009, 17:13:08
Chaos indeed...  ::)

I suppose Trains cause occasional mild irritation to Mr and Mrs Emmitt of Malvern Wells doesn't have quite the same tabloid ring to it as a headline...  ;D

Then again, there's obviously very little going on at all for the Malvern Gazette to cover if this piece of "headline news" is anything to go by, so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised if the newsroom gets a bit desperate...
http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/4461916.Trampoline_stolen/ (http://www.malverngazette.co.uk/news/4461916.Trampoline_stolen/)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 26, 2009, 23:42:26
Well, when we've finished taking cheap shots, the news business is no different to anything else at the moment. We are seeing job cuts across the board, so fewer people are trying to keep the show on the road. The headline may have been slapdash but I can understand why these things happen on occasion.

And the Malvern Gazette is all about parish pump news - not dead pop stars - so why shouldn't they give the trampoline a bit of a show? If it was your children's trampoline, wouldn't you want people to know about it, just in case they had seen someone driving along with the thing in a truck and could tell the police?


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: inspector_blakey on June 27, 2009, 02:03:28
OK, fair does, the trampoline was a slightly low blow.

But I absolutely stand by my point about the original news story.

I'm afraid that local papers do themselves no favours at all by running non-stories such as that and dressing them up with such a vast amount of hyperbole that the printed result is bordering on dishonest. You don't really need to have a searingly critical mind to surmise that it was abundantly clear that the trains were not causing chaos anywhere, just annoying the Emmitts with a bit of engine idling for a few minutes a few times a day.

Looking at this from another angle, whilst I may want people to know about it if my trampoline was nicked I (personally, anyway) have absolutely no interest in spending my money on a newspaper that provides me with little more than a non-story like the idling HSTs and a smattering of reports of local petty thieving. Incidentally, don't get the idea that I am anti-journalist or anti-newspaper: I'm absolutely not, both have a very, very important job to do. It's just that that job is not making up silly inconsequential stories.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 27, 2009, 07:37:52
It may be a non-story to your mind - but it isn't to the people involved. What's is dishonest about the trampoline one. It's a statement of what happened. The only dishonesty I can see is the theft.

And the couple are entitled to their view about idling engines, even if they may be getting a bit carried away - but we're not there, so we don't know quite what the situation is.

FGW does take the idling engines issue seriously. At Oxford drivers in the sidings have been ordered to shut down HST power cars at the north end of the train, as these are nearest to housing. I'm sure they will be doing something about Worcester - a shore line being the obvious thing in the long run but that may well depend on longer-term plans for stabling there, but it will take a long time to get there in the fragmented rail industry.

And no-one makes you buy the papers or look at their websites - the choice is yours. I've been in this game a long time and these are just the kind of things the papers I have worked for have always reported on. Things that may seem small beer in the big scheme of things but matter on a local level - that's what these papers exist for.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 27, 2009, 13:10:47
Things that may seem small beer in the big scheme of things but matter on a local level - that's what these papers exist for.

I would have to say if they matter on a local level, then the locals should be told the truth and I'm afraid that headline is frankly ridiculously OTT. 'Anger at train noise' would be a responsible headline. It's a shame the industry (like so many others) have to stoop to such levels.

Trouble is there's nothing much you can do at Malvern Wells - the train is not stabling there and the total time it will be stationary there is only 10-15 minutes whilst the driver changes ends. Adelantes and Turbo's have been rumbling away for years a short way down the track at their turnback point where there are also adjacent housing. The best hope is that when signalling is replaced in the area that provision for turnback in the station is provided.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on June 28, 2009, 03:06:25
I didn't defend the headline, because it's daft - just tried to put it into the context of the pressure local media are working under right now.

Or are all of you saying that you've never done anything in the course of your work that, had you had the opportunity to pause for thought for a moment, could have been done better?

Remember this is only a teaser for a story in the newspaper, of rather greater length, with some comment from FGW - and, I hope, a better headline.

If it upsets you that much, we like feedback, so write to the editor, his email is John.Murphy@midlands.newsquest.co.uk

PS: the rail industry is quite capable of coming up with not very responsible stuff itself - eg Network Rail's current  'New West Coast main line' advertising campaign, running while bits of NR's kit are still breaking with alarming regularity and playing havoc with Virgin and LM's services.



Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: stebbo on July 10, 2009, 21:08:00
Run the train to Hereford and use the shore supply there....!


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on July 11, 2009, 02:23:21
Bit difficult when the set for the 05.17 from Malvern is already plugged into it.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: inspector_blakey on July 12, 2009, 02:40:55
Stick one of those multi-socket adapters in at the wall...  ;)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on July 13, 2009, 00:58:04
If only it were so easy. Given that it took them weeks to find parts to get the supply working again last year after years out of service, I wouldn't risk overloading it.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on September 29, 2010, 01:01:04
Tucked away in the minutes of the Cotswolds and Malverns Transport Partnership's summer meeting is the detail that overnight stabling for three FGW HSTs is to be provided at Worcester. This is said to be in connection with the Reading project.

The sidings earmarked are known as the Hereford Sidings, which run parallel with Shrub Hill station, behind the island platform, and can be seen in some of the pictures here http://www.railaroundbirmingham.co.uk/Stations/worcs_shrub_hill.php
The sidings' direct connection across to the Hereford line was lost in the 1970s rationalisation of the track layout but the name has survived.

One of the FGW managers present said the intention was to have the sidings available for use from next May. No details were given in the minutes of what facilities may be provided, or whether extra staff would be taken on.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2010, 09:30:16
Indeed - some of the Cheltenham Spa - Padd via Stroud services will start back / be extended to Worcester SH from May11

That brokers the question as to whether the WSH - London fatres will hence be valid in either direction (South / Noth Cotswolds) from then. A Question to be asked at the next Fares meeting of the Customer Panel.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 29, 2010, 15:07:44


That brokers the question as to whether the WSH - London fatres will hence be valid in either direction (South / Noth Cotswolds) from then. A Question to be asked at the next Fares meeting of the Customer Panel.


There is already a WSH to London fare via cheltenham.  It is routed evesham/stroud. 


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2010, 15:23:12
ok, thanks - wasn't sure.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Mookiemoo on September 29, 2010, 16:24:13
yeah - but its about 25% more expensive than the route evesham

oh - and it takes longer


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2010, 16:26:39
So, it ought to be cheaper?....I'll still take this to the Fares meeting.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: JayMac on September 29, 2010, 17:07:35


That brokers the question as to whether the WSH - London fatres will hence be valid in either direction (South / Noth Cotswolds) from then. A Question to be asked at the next Fares meeting of the Customer Panel.


There is already a WSH to London fare via cheltenham.  It is routed evesham/stroud. 

Can't find a Wishaw to London via Cheltenham fare in NFM07. Methinks you meant WOS.  :P ;) ;D


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 29, 2010, 17:08:39
It is highly unlikely they will change anything.  If they reduced the price to WOS they would have to reduce the price for all journeys to swindon, kemble, stroud, stonehouse, gloucester and cheltenham spa by about 25%.

Is that likely - IMHO no.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2010, 17:11:17
No, I suspect not either.

I also suspect that the Cotswold Line's fares will rise once the re-doubling is complete. THe fares along there have been kept down owing to the service levels & journey times.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 29, 2010, 17:15:27
Just to add Anytime return via evesham 62.00 via evesham/stroud 139.00.  Bit more than 25% different.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 29, 2010, 17:33:22
No, I suspect not either.

I also suspect that the Cotswold Line's fares will rise once the re-doubling is complete. THe fares along there have been kept down owing to the service levels & journey times.

No that is not so.  The fares have been kept down due to privatisation rules.  When the railways were privatised some fares were regulated and some unregulated.

Regulated fares were saver returns and day returns.  They could only go up by a maximum of a fixed formula a year (RPI +1% or something like that)

Unregulated fares were (Cheap day returns , supersavers and open returns)  They could go up by as much as the TOC wanted to.  Now a cheap day return can never cost more than a standard day and a supersaver could not cost more than a saver so that kept a lid on prices of these two ticket types.  Open returns could and did go up by huge amounts.


It just so happened that ticket via evesham to wos were statndard day returns so could only rise by small amounts tickets via evesham stroud were open returns and hence you now get the huge difference in prices.

As the evesham ticket was protected they can still only go up by RPI +1% so the fares will not increase much even after the line has been re doubled.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 29, 2010, 17:52:03
No that is not so. 

Oh yes it is.....

Quote
The fares have been kept down due to privatisation rules.  When the railways were privatised some fares were regulated and some unregulated.

Correct, but....

Quote
Regulated fares were saver returns and day returns.  They could only go up by a maximum of a fixed formula a year (RPI +1% or something like that)

Is nearly right. What you omit to say is that, up until very recently, that formula applied to 'baskets' of fares, not *each* individual fare. Within that basket, fares could rise +/- another 5% as long as the *average* of all those within each baskety came in at or below RPI+1%.....

So any fare could rise by up to 6% or drop by -4%. Every TOC used this to a large extent, raising high-volume fares and lowering the low-volume ones, to maximise the fare baskets.

The last Government changed the rules last January and every fare was made to 'rise' by RPI+1% - i.e. to fall slightly, in the hope of winning some votes, Fat chance of that happening!

What January 2011's rule will be is anyone's guess currently. It depends on the spending review to be announced next month. And only leaves a few weeks for implementation as they all have to be loaded into the fares sysyetem 4 weeks before January 2.

What I said abive stands.



Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 29, 2010, 21:39:39
What I was trying to explain is that the fares will not increase due to the the line being re-doubled.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on September 30, 2010, 01:27:55
Chris's point about fares being held down due to service levels is correct, in particular the Saver concession for peak-time journeys from and to stations on the line which exists largely because there is nothing arriving off the Cotswold Line at Paddington between 9.45am and (depending on the timetable in force over the years) 11am-11.30am, plus, in the case of most of the halts, there is just one train a day each way.

As for fares post-redoubling, we shall see, though I suspect some kind of a rise is inevitable given current circumstances in the wider world. They were frozen this year (after a big cut in off-peak fares in January last year) specifically as a concession due to the redoubling scheme. It remains to be seen whether that policy will continue for 2011, given that the extended line closures will actually happen next year.

One factor that may restrain rises is that they are very keen to drive up custom post-redoubling, especially at the eastern end, and a big hike could stop that idea in its tracks.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: ChrisB on September 30, 2010, 09:38:45
I wasn't necessarily suggesting that they will go up in January. There are 3 opportunities eaxch year - January, May & September for all unregulated fares.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2010, 12:29:05
One of the FGW managers present said the intention was to have the sidings available for use from next May. No details were given in the minutes of what facilities may be provided, or whether extra staff would be taken on.

Yes, they've been working on the sleepers and replacing sections of track over the last few months.  Prior to that, the buddleia bushes growing in the sidings meant you would have been forgiven for not realising there were any sidings there at all.  As for facilities, I doubt much will be needed except for a walking route for the drivers.  There has been 'talk' of transferring Gloucester's FGW depot to Worcester, but I can't see that happening to be honest. 

Currently the exit from the three sidings is controlled by one semaphore ground shunting signal with the route into each siding controlled by hand points - perhaps each siding will be connected to a separate shunting signal, but I doubt that will be done due to cost, so the points will have to be hand-set by a shunter (or with a special agreement, perhaps the driver?).


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on September 30, 2010, 13:36:46
But what about water and shore power supplies? The shunt moves to get to and from the dmu depot for water (and fuel?) would be horrendous with the current track layout and I can't imagine they would want to leave three engines running all night.
.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Tim on September 30, 2010, 13:54:06
IIRC FGW have left HST engines running all night at Worcester before and got complaints about the noise from local residents. 


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 30, 2010, 15:27:29
Shore supply is now in place so no need to keep the engines running all night


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2010, 16:34:31
Good point about shore supply, but the set that stables there overnight now doesn't get watered or fuelled, so it's not essential - all depends what the set(s) will be doing after they get to London.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: super tm on September 30, 2010, 17:05:43
3 sets from Dec AIUI.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on October 01, 2010, 00:32:16
Shore supply is now in place so no need to keep the engines running all night

But that supply is presumably in the long siding south of the station, on the opposite side of the running lines (that was certainly where the set was stabled when there were the complaints over noise in summer last year), so not a lot of use in the Hereford sidings.

And I would have thought it would be worth a modest investment tapping into the LM water supply if these sidings are to be used long-term, which appears to be the intention, given that it was linked with the Reading project in the meeting. Not as if it's an idea they have come up with all of a sudden, since I think I first heard FGW managers talk about stabling at Worcester in early 2008. 


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 01, 2010, 12:16:20
I'm pretty sure there's no shore supply anywhere outside of the main depot at Worcester.  Yet.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 01, 2010, 21:50:34
By the way: I've just taken the opportunity to merge a couple of topics here - as usual, purely in the interests of continuity and clarity.

Chris.  :)


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: 53808 on October 02, 2010, 17:21:05
Shore supply is now in place so no need to keep the engines running all night

But that supply is presumably in the long siding south of the station, on the opposite side of the running lines (that was certainly where the set was stabled when there were the complaints over noise in summer last year), so not a lot of use in the Hereford sidings.
The current work includes shore supply to two of the three 'Hereford' sidings, plus the siding behind platforms 2 & 3, which is where the 3 sets will go overnight during the Reading remodelling in December 2010. Access to the 'Hereford' sidings is either via the north end as at the moment, or via the ground frame at the Wyldes Lane end, where track fettling will bring that connection back into use. The connection to the siding behind platforms 2/3 is controlled by the Shrub Hill signaller. No signalling alterations are currently envisaged, or necessary, for the level of stabling requried. DB Schenker are fully involved in the discussions, and another of the 'single-ended' 'Hereford' sidings will be brought back into use to 'compensate' for the fact that the other two are being (partially) used by FGW on nights.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: Steve Bray on November 01, 2010, 19:42:38
There was a bit more in today's Worcester News on this topic. The main part of the story was about residents complaining (again), about not being able to sleep due to (presumably) LM's engines running through the night.

Then there was a bit about additional FGW stabling more HST's overnight from May (engines off). 2 of these sets would form early morning Cheltenham/Paddington services.

No doubt CfN will track down the article.


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: JayMac on November 01, 2010, 20:03:35
Not CfN...... his assistant news gatherer.  :D

From Worcester News (http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/8486079.Residents_kept_awake_by_rumbling_trains/) (1/11/2010):

Quote
TRAINS are causing angry homeowners to lose sleep because their noisy engines are being left running overnight. Residents of Rainbow Hill Terrace, off Rainbow Hill, Worcester, are suffering sleepless nights because of the loud rumbling diesel engines of trains parked at nearby Worcester Shrub Hill station.

Train bosses could be fined up to ^50,000 if they do not reduce noise, an environment officer at Worcester City Council has warned. In the meantime, residents cannot install double glazing or other sound-proofing because of the restrictions which apply to their grade two Georgian terraced homes, which are sited within a conservation area. Further concerns have been raised about fumes from the diesel engines. which are kept running all night to power maintenance and cleaning work. Environmental health chiefs at Worcester City Council and train bosses continue to investigate noise complaints connected to the servicing depot, which is operated by London Midland.

Douglas Gregor, who lives in Rainbow Hill Terrace, said: ^It starts after midnight and goes on right through to six or seven in the morning. It really disturbs sleep. In these listed buildings you can^t install double glazing. There is no barrier to the sound and in summer time you need to keep your windows open for fresh air. We also get fumes from the diesel engines but it^s the sound I really object to. It^s really intrusive.^

A neighbour who declined to be named said the situation had been particularly bad over the last three to four years. She said: ^They^re parked up overnight and they keep the engines running all the time. It seems an awful waste of fuel and it^s bad for CO2 emissions.^

A similar situation was reported in your Worcester News last June when residents of Kennet Green, also near the station, complained about noise from stabled trains run by operator First Great Western. Martin Gillies, environmental health manager for Worcester City Council, said he was investigating an ^ongoing noise-related^ complaint and said he was in discussions with Network Rail and the train operator. He said: ^If we^re satisfied that they^re causing a statutory nuisance we^re obliged to serve abatement notices on the company.^ He is currently awaiting the results of a noise assessment. Mr Gillies said train companies could be fined up to ^50,000 for causing a noise nuisance. He said: ^The complaint refers to the servicing depot operated by London Midland. However, there are other noise sources in the area as well.^

A spokesman for London Midland said: ^We were first contacted in 2008 by a resident of Rainbow Hill Terrace who was concerned about lighting levels. We introduced successful measures to adjust the lighting and received no further complaints about this particular issue. We have since received a further complaint about noise and diesel fumes. As this is a busy location there may be a number of contributing factors causing noise and fumes, so we are carrying out a full investigation to understand how we can manage and reduce levels. We are working closely with Worcester City Council to resolve these issues.^

More trains will be stabled at Shrub Hill next year ^ but they will not cause any noise because the engines will be turned off says the train operator. The move will allow an extra two morning services from Worcester to Paddington. First Great Western is providing more overnight stable sidings at Worcester for high speed trains because of work being carried out in Reading from next May. In a joint statement First Great Western and Network Rail said the trains would be stabled in the Hereford sidings, situated behind platforms two and three and east of Worcester Shrub Hill station. The trains^ engines would be switched off, meaning no disturbance to residents living nearby, it said.

^FGW plan to make regular use of these sidings from May next year to reduce the mileage of empty trains travelling back to depots (thus lowering our carbon footprint),^ it said. ^This will also create two additional morning trains to Paddington that currently start at Cheltenham Spa.^


Title: Re: HST stabling at Worcester
Post by: willc on May 21, 2011, 20:57:08
Mark Hopwood told today's CLPG annual meeting that another stabling siding able to hold an HST is planned for Hereford to reduce empty running to and from Bristol and that in future a fitter (man in a van, as he put it) will be at Worcester overnight to rectify minor faults on sets stabled there.



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