Great Western Coffee Shop

British Airways announced today that it will withdraw scheduled operations from four London Gatwick short-haul routes, including its daily flights to Newquay Cornwall Airport
http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/3564813.BA_withdraw_services_from_Newquay/

Good!

You see, if the gov got their act together now and improved the railways/built new ones, we could see a huge drop in domestic flights.

"Plymouth City Airport has been ranked as the second fastest growing airport in the country after official figures revealed a 31 per cent increase in passenger numbers.  The impressive growth has been attributed to the introduction of new flights earlier this year to Glasgow, Newcastle, Dublin and Cork by Plymouth-based low fare regional airline Air Southwest.

Mike Coombes, deputy chief executive of Air Southwest, said: "There's been a lot of doom and gloom around about air travel recently so it's good to be able to report that Plymouth is bucking the trend.

"All our new routes have been very well received.  Glasgow is proving especially popular for business travellers, particularly with marine-related businesses, and for short breaks in Scotland.  Newcastle has also seen a lot of marine and naval-related traffic, and we're seeing a lot of customers take advantage of the city's legendary nightlife and its proximity to the Northumberland coast and national park."

For full details, see http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Airport-proving-soaring-success/article-338473-detail/article.html

In order to curb domestic air travel:

*the gov should increase tax for these flight, to make them more expensive;

*the gov should order a mandatory 2 hour check in time (with or without hand luggage) to make domestic air travel less fast.

(And electrify/ put tilting 10 car 155 mph trains on the XC network!)

I'm not sure about increased taxes, but increasing check in times to make domestic air travel less attractive could conceivably be seen as a breach of competition laws.

As for an electric 155 mph to Plymouth, about as likely as Argyle signing Ronaldo ;D

Despite Plymouth being Britains 14th largest city its peripheral geographical position situated on a slow sinuous rail route west of Exeter means that its stagnating rail links are seriously handicapped in the face of any air competition that may arise.While 60mph line speeds may of been considered high speed in Victorian times they certainly not in 21st century.The recent trend to add more station stops and padd out journey times for the specific purpose of ensuring that trains reach their final destination within 10 minutes of the booked arrival time means that many trains are slower than they were 20 years ago sending all the wrong messages to the transport market in these parts.

I don't think it's purely a matter of geography. Because the South West region as a whole has a relatively high standard of living (the average being distorted by the number of rich people who move west), and is considered predominantly rural, it has traditionally missed out on the sort of investment that governments have from time to time aimed at the "inner cities", Scotland, Wales, the north etc.

The fact that Plymouth has some of the most disadvantaged areas in the country has largely been ignored as this doesn't fit the prevailing stereotypes of the yacht brigade, or farmers milking the EU subsidy system.

So when they talk about building a high speed rail link in a westerly direction from London, you can guarantee it will be instantly dismissed without any further thought. Unless the Welsh Assembly can afford to pay for one, of course, but while that might accidentally benefit Swindon and Bristol, it won't make much difference west of Exeter.

Remember it took the European Union to notice that Cornwall is England's poorest county.....

Plymouth Airport cannot support larger commercial aircraft.  Whilst the 50 seater Dash 8 turbo-prop services are well patronised, I doubt whether a later series 737 service would be commercially viable, even if runway constraints allowed it to land.  In addition, Exeter has far better facilities and is increasingly recognised as the regional
airport for the SW.  There is also strong competition from Newquay, which has a huge runway and the potential to accomodate the largest aircraft

Unfortunately, Plymouth has had a moribund economy for several years, it also has huge swathes of deprivation and is not a particularly attractive destination from a revenue generation perspective.  Given the current economic downturn, I cannot see that position changing.  As such, IMO there is simply no economic justification for the vast investment needed to raise line speeds towards HS levels at this moment in time.
 
However, an improved rail  service with higher line speeds should be a priority and will hopefully serve to increase the attractiveness of the city to potential investors.

BR managed Plymouth-London in under 3 hours without huge investments.  is it too much to hope that FGW could manage the same with minor improvements to the track if needed?

In a world where nothing stands still transport links included, anything that is not moving foreward is effectively moving backwards.That unfortunately is the status now of FGWs Plymouth to Paddington service, little wonder then that Plymouth is not a popular rail destination.In contrast road and air links have improved and continue to improve and that is how the vast majority of people now choose to travel to Plymouth.If rail wants to play its part then the problem of the very low line speeds(for a main line) :(,only 55mph between Totnes and Newton Abbot,needs to be addressed urgently.

Two councillors have sparked a damning response from officials after calling for Newquay Airport to be sold and all monies to be ploughed into adult social care in Cornwall (link below.)
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/homepagenews/Councillors-sell-Newquay-Airport/article-372668-detail/article.html

The following has been posted on the Newquay Airport website.

Newquay Cornwall Airport Flights to Cease Temporarily
We were informed around 4.30pm today (26.11.08), that the RAF is unable to continue to operate the airfield at St Mawgan beyond the original transition date of 1 December.
26 November 2008

Given that the Airport will not be licensed until 19 December, we are effectively closed for commercial flights with flights resuming on 20 December 2008. However, the terminal building will remain open and in operation for check-in.

Shame it doesn't close forever!

Maybe they could divert flights to Bangkok airport there for the time being?

There's a fairly major spat over this, with a lot of name-calling:


See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7752446.stm  ::)

I'd say that's the pot calling the kettle black. Why? Well Ryanair recently pulled out of Valencia at 11 days notice, because they couldn't reach agreement with the airport over subsidies, leaving thousands of passengers flying on holiday with accommodation booked and no flight, just because of a long running commercial dispute.

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=oct&story=gen-en-241008

I can't understand how an airline is able to get away with treating its customers like that given the financial commitments that people willl clearly be making in conjunction with their flight bookings. 

Perhaps because airline companies don't have franchise commitments; they don't have ORR or DfT breathing down their necks; they can pick and choose what services they offer, and when?

It's not just Ryanair: I have been let down badly by Air South West on three occasions in the past, travelling home from Manchester to Bristol - and frankly, they couldn't have cared less.

So now I travel to Manchester and back by XC - even a Voyager is preferable to the cavalier attitude of the airline companies.

 ::)

An update, from the BBC:


See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7753918.stm

Video report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7755098.stm

I heard on the Radio today that the Last time an Airfield closed when transfered from the Military to Civilian operation it was SHUT for 3 years.

WE CAN ONLY HOPE!!

Lets hope it takes EVEN longer.

Because there is no cheaper alternative, and it will damage any airport they do it to. Hence why the majority of them back down and sort there problems out.

That and they can quite easily afford to, having around ^2bn in the bank

I was thinking more in lines of the contractual position. There is something called the Unfair Contracts Act, which is designed to protect consumers from this sort of attitude. Cancelling thousands of passengers flights (ie breaking the contract between the individual and the company) becauses the company's had a disagreement with an airport strikes me as unfair. 

A good point, John - and the BBC report does say,


 ::)

But then when an airline has ^2billion in the Bank can you afford to take them on.

I'll never be happy flying, it's bad for the Planet, and secondly planes are built almost on Breaking strain, one bolt holding a wing on breaks and it's very likely the whole wing will fall off shortly after!

because if that was the case, they'd defiantly be allowed to fly  ::)

Your average short range passenger jet costs $50-100mil, and a long range jet costs $200-400mil for a reason. They're built with many fall-back systems, and are incredibly structurally sound. Why you think if 1 bolt goes the whole thing goes i don't know...

smokey is generally full of crap  ;)

You make it sound like i hadn't noticed ;)

Smokey may not be so far off the mark. I know an aero engineer. He never flys his own airline.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7757172.stm

Re: If one bolt breaks the wing falls off, I was told that by an Aircraft engineer who works for a steam railway.
Ok it might be more truthful to say IF 2 bolts break the wing falls off.

I only know that this engineer NEVER flys.

if that's the case, then his airline shouldn't be flying ;)

Oh and i know a number of Engineers/ workers for Airbus. And suffice to say i know it takes substantially more than 2 bolts to fall off for a wing to go ;)

"A decision to close Newquay Airport was difficult but responsible, the Civil Aviation Authority has said."

For the full article, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7757954.stm

Also video report, at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7759041.stm

Local news reporting that it may not reopen until at least January.

2009?   ;D

 ;D

FGW now have the perfect opportunity to promote their new enhanced Newquay service, whic, incidently, commences with the new timetable! I always remember GNER's classic advert in a national newspaper at the time when everything was grounded at Heathrow due to fog, it went something "why do people fly to Scotland?...... We haven't the foggiest!"

Though even with the new timetable you can only have 3 1/2 hours in London on a day trip.

I notice that two of the Newquay trains are timed to depart at exactly the same time as the service from Par arrives. Obviously the 3 or 4 minutes recovery time in the arriving service provides the buffer but I don't ever recall seeing that in a public timetable before. (Cue flood of examples to prove me wrong....)

"Newquay Airport closed for Christmas"

See BBC video report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7768539.stm

Not sure about trains arriving and departing at a terminus at the same time, but when the line from Ruabon to Barmouth via Llangollen the timtable entry for Bala showed you departed before you arrived!

 

Another reason the Night train is so important for Cornwall. :D

You can arrive London 05.41 (leaving Newquay 21.25)

or Leave London 23.45 arrive Newquay 07.44.

thats a long time in London if you take the Starlight Express both ways ;D

Completely irrelevent but I heard from an aero engineer that I know that Boeing have decided to transport their partially complete Dreamliner jets between factories by air rather than rail as they have done with previous models.

The reason behind this decison is that whilst being transported accross redneck teritory in the southern states the locals would take pot-shots at the fusulage and wing sections on the slow moving freight wagons.  If these parts were made of aluminium alloy Boeing could patch the bullet holes fairly easily, but the dreamliner uses composite materials that are not so easily patched so they have to go by air.  British train drivers should be grateful that they don't regularly have idiots shooting at their cargo for sport!

Newquay Airport: Ryanair suspends flights until March
Ryanair has suspended its Newquay service to and from Stansted until March, the company announced today.

The low-cost airline blamed the decision on Cornwall County Council's inability to confirm a date when Newquay Airport will re-open.http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/homepagenews/Newquay-Airport-Ryanair-suspends-flights-March-2009/article-540967-detail/article.html

  However BBC South West news said this morning that starting from February Exeter based Flybe is planning to introduce a 3 times daily Newquay/Gatwick service in direct competition with Air Southwests existing 5 times daily Newquay/Gatwick flights.

Ryanair are a bunch of to*sers anyway, they really don't give a flying f*ck about their customers at the best of times!

Would that be a low cost flying f*ck at all? ;D

Just for interest Flybe fares will start from ^29 one way under cutting the current Air Southwest offering by ^10.Needless to say Air South West are not happy about Cornwall County Council letting in Flybe at Newquay.With 7 or 8 daily flights from Newquay to Gatwick from mid February one wonders what effect this will have on railway business from Cornwall given that the number of intermediate station stops on many Penzance/Paddington services is now mind boggling.

Not like the council have much of a choice. i'd suspect flybe would get the competition comission involved if they blocked it. And at the end of the day it's in the best interest of the customers, and would lead to flybe getting in anyway...

That and i'm sure it would annoy flybe and make them cut there summer schedule significantly to newquay

Vacman, noone else sums it up better than you!
 

As you say the county say that competition is in the best interest of passengers er customers.

Advance fares start from ^15.00 with FGW or ^9.90 with a railcard.

This closure seems like an ideal oportunity for teh pro rail groups in Cornwall to do a little bit of Market Research on why people fly from Newquay to Gatwick.

IF there are going to be 7/8 flights a day form February then even with 50 seat aircrat that's 350/400 seats a day or at least one very full HST. The sort of questions I would be asking are

How long does it take from the Newquay Station to Central London Including check in, Gatwick Expreess etc. How long does the through train take.

Where do people who fly come from, do they have a station on the mainline? As they have to drive to Newquay Airport what's the comparable time from their local station to London?

It's obviously cheaper by train given the prices.

This would give them ammunition to challenge FGW to provide a faster service from Cornwall perhaps missing out some intermediate stops to directly compete with air. 

The only reason I can see to fly from Newquay to Gatwick, apart from avoiding FGW, is to change at Gatwick for an onward flight. I can't see there being up to 400 people a day from Cornwall wanting to do that.

Of course the major problem is even if a denmand for better faster rail services is found during this research, there isn't the stock available so air will win out over rail.  Pendolinos have virtually killed internal London to Manchester air travel.

And Eurostar has basically killed shorter European flights London - Paris.

Let's get the GWR lines electrified,* and at as high a speed as possible, to slash journey times, and compete with air.

*Ok, attach a loco at Par or Plymouth

Surely London to Newquay in 3 hours is possible.

Thats an average speed of 93mph. Not easily achievable!

Ok, 3 hours 30 mins.

Average of 80 mph - should be possible with stops at Reading, Taunton, Exeter, NA, Totnes, Plymouth, Lisk, Bodmin and Par only.

Ignoring acceleration/decelleration, if we have 2 minute dwell times, from 3hr30, 3hr12 is spent moving. Thus an average speed between stops of 87.5mph...

... including 15mph over the Tamar Bridge and also the curvy section between Exeter and Plymouth. And isn't the maximum line speed under semaphore signalling 90mph?

And of course you have you do have to accelerate and brake to a stand. So 3hrs 30mins is as likely as Gordon Brown admitting he's screwed up the economy.

   

I think you have to except that ultimately despite how pro rail we all are here that some parts of the rail system with their Victorian infrastructure and lack of sufficient investment are going to increasingly struggle against inroads by air competition in the 21st century while other parts (ie  the West Coast main line) are more than capable of beating it off.

But the majority of the GWR main lines could be engineered like the WCML.

Spare ^9 Billion anyone?

I don't really think Newquay to London is the actual market, it just happens that Newquay is Cornwalls only almost major airport, i'd say most come from the Truro area, Truro station had a footfall of over 1million last year by the way, by cutting out stops we could have an attractive alternative to flying, lets say you live in Truro flying from Newquay - 30 mins drive to Newquay airport, an hour to arse around checking in etc, (I don't actually know how long the flight is??) lets say an hours flight??, then you get to Gatwick, then getting to London an hour by the time you get your luggage, get the Gat express and tube or taxi thats 3 and a half hours.
By train - 5 min drive to station, 4 hours 20 to London then it's just a taxi or tube so it is quite compareable at the moment, but you can gain around 35mins in Cornwall by cutting out stops, the HST's should be PNZ-TRU-SAU-BOD-LSK-PLY-EXD-RDG-PAD you could probably get a Penzance-Paddington journey time of around 4 and a half hours and under 4 hours from Truro, thats with no expensive infrastructure improvements! If we had a two hourly fast service like that then a two hourly semi-fast like PNZ-SER-CBN-RED-TRU-SAU-PAR-BOD-LSK-PLY-TOT-NTA-EXD-TVP-TAU-RDG-EXD, the small stations could be served much better with regular stoppers, a Liskeard-Newton Abbot shuttle every hour stopping all stations would mean no more inappropriate stops for HST's at Lostwithiel, Menheniot, St Germans, Saltash and Ivybridge! Hayle would probably have to be an exception for HST's as it probably wouldn't pay to run a unit through West Cornwall

What plugs the gap to London at Totnes, Newton Abbot, Tiverton Parkway and Taunton?

Ive been on trains originating from Cornwall where its fairly empty and Newton Abbot and full by Taunton.

Plymouth start ups connecting with Cornish stopper, cross platform interchange.

The existing EXD-Pad shuttles would cover most but increased to 2 hourly and maybe add Newton Abbot into the fast trains

I agree with Vacman - "InterCity" means express, not stopping everywhere!

Gaps at St Erth could be plugged by extending St Ives services to PNZ, also providing a useful local journey option.

Newquay trains could run straight into Plymouth, more gaps plugged.

Then all you need is a local shuttle, serving the halts around Plymouth.

Problem is, once you have an established service, you can't simply remove the services. There would be uproar if Totnes and Newton Abbot were to loose out on fairly fast services to London. There would also be some fairly major gaps travelling from Torbay - Plymouth

The problem I see with taking out stops particularly in Cornwall is that many Penzance/Paddington HSTs through Cornwall now carry a significant number of local passengers, particularly commuters into Plymouth.The severe overcrowding of HSTs at Plymouth with commuters to/from Cornwall is becoming a regular feature of rail travel locally.If you were to remove the local travel element many HSTs from Penzance to Plymouth would be half empty so it^s a ^catch 22^ situation.To fill seats on HSTs in Cornwall you need to stop them to pick up the commuters to fill those empty seats.On the other hand stopping HSTs at every lampost in Cornwall simply makes air links to Gatwick more viable to long haul passengers.In an ideal world the HSTs would run limited stops Penzance to Plymouth interspersed with a regular local stopping service.As it is FGW are currently stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one and I sence the airlines know this.

No-one is telling FGW to axe the local stations, just run LOCAL trains for LOCAL stations.

And Totnes, Torbay and NA can still have fast trains to London.

Most of the "Local" traffic is Truro, Bodmin and Liskeard to Plymouth which would still be served by HST's anyway......

Only time will tell if 20th century solutions will still be relevent as the 21st century unfolds.ie more airport expansion and new roads at the expense of much needed rail infrastructure investment in the far west.

You always seem to bang on about roads being built, then why was the Kingskerswell bypass rejected for what must be the millionth time!!

Just stating the facts of transport life for most people in Devon and Cornwall and highlighting how rail has to compete with one hand tied behind its back west of Exeter.

Maybe so but even with one hand tied behind its back rail is beating the sh1t out of roads for local travel in Devon and Cornwall, I can't ever recall the current volume of local travel in the two counties!

... and the airport closure has already cost the local economy up to ^6 million, apparently: see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7784703.stm

Quite so,I regularly travel Plymouth /Exeter return 104 rail miles ^4.70 with a Devon and Cornwall railcard unbeatable.

Newquay Airport update http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7787470.stm

 ??? I would be very interested to hear if the loadings for the Sleeper have increased much since the airport closed ?

Just caught tailend of piece on You and Yours Radio 4 assumme airport will reopen.

Final quote "it's a great day for Cornwall".

Ditto-The latest http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/business/Newquay-Airport-reopen/article-561014-detail/article.html
Operating lincence granted late yesterday.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7793365.stm

The future of Plymouths airport could be at risk and with it Air South Wests Plymouth/Newquay/Gatwick air link as Flybe prepare to Launch a rival Newquay/Gatwick service on February 15th according to a report in the Plymouth Evening Herald newspaper.Could be good news for FGW in Plymouth.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-653076-detail/article.html

If FGW removed some slack from the 1006/1206 ex Paddington, there could be two southbound trains that reach Plymouth in 3 hours. Plymouth Airport is in a hopeless position for visiting business and probably involves a fairly lengthy bus journey through Marsh Mills. Fun!

Meanwhile the station is within walking distance of most of Plymouth City Centre.

Won't happen.

Especially as the owners of ASW own plymouth airport...

Plus this wouldnt be the first MP that had no idea what they're talking about

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7872846.stm

I suppose the rail service is just too slow and expensive.

And driving is not fun.

FlyBe are also to fly from Newquay to Gatwick starting this Spring. This will be in competition with Air South west and will virtually double the number of flights to Gatwick. The FlyBe web site was showing a fare of ^0 in both directions plus taxes the other day, still might be there.

Air Southwest Set To Revolutionise Travel Between Newquay And London

Air travel between Cornwall and London with the launch of a twice daily service from Newquay to London City Airport.
New twice-daily service from Newquay to London City Airport
Flying to the heart of London
Providing a full business day in London
Quicker than the train, cheaper than the train
All-in fares from just ^29
London City Airport:

Six miles from the City, three miles from Canary Wharf
Docklands Light Railway gives easy access to whole of London every 10 minutes
Business environment
Five minutes from plane to train (or taxi)
Fastest passenger processing times in Europe
From April 20 the new service will provide a twice-daily link from Newquay to London City, meaning that Cornwall's business travellers can benefit from a full day in London, with the convenience of flying from Newquay Airport. This expansion will further strengthen Air Southwest's route network from Newquay, where the airline is already the largest operator.

Newquay Cornwall Airport (http://www.newquaycornwallairport.com/index.cfm?articleid=47974)

>:(

I think that sums up Btline's feelings about the matter quite nicely ;D

You won't get me on those planes though. I hate flying, Train much safer ;D

Interestingly enough I was talking to an easyjet pilot who said your more likely to kill yourself getting into the shower than have an incident on a plane. Problem is, (God forbid) if the plane crashes. Your pretty much Dead.

If a train crashes (God Forbid again) you have much more chance of being able to tell the tale ;D

Though there have been a few instances recently (Heathrow, Hudson River) where what should have been multiple fatality accidents have resulted in none.

You may not want to get on a plane, but if you're a business person needing to travel to London this service will be very appealling. Let's face it, you can't sensibly do London and back in a day from Newquay, can you? (Unless you think 11 hrs travelling for 3 1/2 hours is ok.)   

Yes I agree that their have been several incidents that have resulted in no fatalities. and yes flying to London for business would be very appealing, I'm not saying it isn't. But i'd much rather get the FGW Pullman Breakfast service from Plymouth to London than fly.

One of my friends got frisked whilst going through security. The security guard didn't exactly carry out his business gently, clonked him in a rather sensitive place. To which my friend said, "Watch It Yeah" No messing about, got arrested in the middle of the airport.

Now personally I would much rather not have the idea in my head that something like that could happen to me in an airport. With a train, yes it can take longer, But you can turn up and go, no fannying about with security checks and bag xraying.

Flying Somewhere = Anxious Trout >:(
Travelling by Rail = Happy Trout ;D

Please excuse my hideous grammar and punctuation :-X

Airline announces new Plymouth/Newquay to London route
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Airline-announces-new-Plymouth-London-route/article-756238-detail/article.html
Given the limitations the railway infrastructure west of Exeter with a very slow and sinuous rail route and little hope of a 21st railway this far west it is inevitable that the the railways are increasingly going to struggle in these parts as the 21st Century unfolds.The new ASW flying time from Plymouth to Central London will now be little different to the present Plymouth to Exeter rail journey so is likely to be very popular and not just with business men.Lets face it the railways in the south west are not a national priority and journey times from Plymouth to London reflect the past and not the future.
  I would think that one or two alarm bells must be ringing at FGW now.
 

I doubt it, most of their business west of exeter is local stuff.

Not quite yet after all long distance rail passengers are the target of this new ASW service. By the time the Super express Train enters service then FGW can terminate its Paddington trains at Exeter if they still have the franchise then which after all is what Dft transport policy west of Exeter is ultimately leading to.

Do you have a page full on "west of Exeter is doomed" quotes or something?

It simply isn't true. Rarely do I travel on a train that is empty and i'm normally in the quiet coach which is the least busy of all!

I think Air South West are starting these flights to London City airport because of Flybe

Flybe started three flights a day in February non stop from Newquay to Gatwick in 65 minutes.[about the same time as to get to Par by train] In fact the first Flybe and Air South West flights to Gatwick both leave at 0720 from Newquay.

After what First have done to the internal layout of their HSTs they are no longer suitable for long journeys. In my case Exeter is the limit and even then I have to walk from St.Davids to Central to get some feeling back in the nether regions before continuing on SWT.

Interestingly I travelled twice recently in the quiet zone at a table lining up with a window on a XC refurbished mk3. I could see across the carraige and even the seats did not seem so overpowering as the ludicrous uncomfortable First group efforts.

I rode in a First group HST at Plymouth after getting off the XC set and compared with disbelief the claustrophobic uncomfortable layout, suitable for one hour max commuter shuttles only unless you like sitting on a granite filled seat staring at a seatback. Even the few tables do not line up with the windows.

If the RAIB assess the risk of injury travelling by train to be so high as to need these extra high back seats then how come staff and passengers are allowed to stand and walk around in a moving train?
They have certainly increased my risk as I am sure that using the plane for London trips is more dangerous than what used to be an enjoyable train trip.

I think the Super Express train is going to internally need a major re think of internal design and layout as perpetuating these current requirements must be putting off many long distance travellers.

Seats are hard due to fire regulations.

Are you sure?  I find it very hard to believe.  You can get beds in first class in some planes so the provsion of soft funishings per se can't be a fire risk. (although I could be persuaded that fire regs prevent a confortable seat being made on the cheap.  I could perhaps also be persuaded that the Health and Safety muppets in the rail industry have accepted fire regs that are stricter than on aircraft)

IMO The XC HST refurb is rather good and shows FGW's efforts up in a very bad light.   

At the end of the day it's down to personal choice what you would rather do, many people comment on "how nice" our refreshed HST's are inside and how much leg room there is and that they are very comfortable, for those who don't find them comfortable then you have the option to use an alternative mode of transport, i don't think FGW are going to refresh their entire fleet again just so that about 1% of passengers will be more comfortable! if you would rather sit sealed into a bean can with wings then go ahead!

Indeed, you can't go and look out of the windows at Dawlish on an aeroplane, or walk to the buffet or decide to move seats, or decide to upgrade to First Class, or decide to have a plated Pullman meal on a plane ;)

There is no guarantee that the "Super Express" trains will even get as far as Exeter.  The Paddington to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance route is an optional extra and not part of the main order.

That chap Ian Walmsley who did a couple of articles in Modern Railways about railway seating came to the conclusion that the seats are only hard because they are made to such a low price, and also to reduce thickness and therefore space taken up. 

He also explained IIRC that FGW's 'tombstone seats' are solely an FGW decision, and NOT actually required by the current regulations.

I expect the proof of that will be when we see the new Pendolinos, and the IEPs...

Paul

It says cheaper than the train at ^29 return?I presume that is some form of book ahead ticket, well a railcard advance from Truro to Paddington is ^9.90 each way, making it ^19.80 return??? ummmm my maths is pretty poor but?????? I'll bet it's more than ^81 return if you turn up on the day!

Well FGW are supposed to be getting 70 IEP sets to replace 53 HST sets, not been funny but if they don't go to Penzance then where will they all go?

How can the high seat backs and rock hard seats be H&S regulations?

Both XC and GNER managed a refurbishment without this! And at least they actually looked where the windows were before plonking the table seats down!

And Chiltern managed to get >97 % of airline seats in line with the windows. (and 100% of table seats)

Cotswold line please!

I find FGW HST seats OK.

You want hard seats - try a three hour trip on a SWT '444'.

Now that is painful  ;D

Just out of interest, how many seats are on each os ASW's planes and how many of these services per day do they plan to run?

16.57 PLY-PAD cancelled yesterday.

I noted several people jumping into taxi's "airport please" :(

ASW has a fleet of 5 bombardier Q300, which have 50 seats on board.

They are flying twice daily to London City, and four times daily to Gatwick Airport.

Which means they can take 100 passengers in either direction to London City Airport, and 200 passengers daily to Gatwick Airport, which is 300 passengers in each direction and a total of 600 passengers per day. So a heavily loaded (full and standing) high speed train to Newquay can have that many passengers in just one direction. Plus the cost of the flight is ^29 one way so a return fare of ^58 / ^63 (when taking into account ^5 airport development fee at Newquay). This is cheaper than an off peak return from Newquay which is ^78, but not all there fares are going to be ^29, so an advance purchase train ticket can be cheaper, but it will take longer.

The cheapest tickets available from Newquay to London is ^14.50 one way so a return ticket could cost ^29 without a railcard.

Now Flybe have started their thrice daily flight from Newquay to Gatwick there is airline competition on the route. They are using 78-seat Bombardier Q400 aircraft. Their non stop flights at the moment for 31st March are showing ^2.84 + taxes each way. The Air South West flights [four a day] have a Plymouth stop in one direction and fly Plymouth - Newquay - Gatwick most of the time. Plymouth airport being near the moor also suffers from poor visibility.

I personally much preferred to use the train before First 'improved' the Mk3s even though it took longer. Now my 'powers that be' want us to return in a day to avoid a night away.

The seats on the aircraft are obviously to a much more sane H&S regime than the train as the seats are fairly comfortable and you can see down the aircraft and are not hemmed in within the limitations of an aircraft tube

I really think the rail industry has to seriously look at itself with reference to modern seating/ layouts/ passenger comfort/taking risk too far etc and to challenge some of these UK only rules. Everyone is so bothered about CYA [cover your arse] risk that no one will do anything soon. Rail competition is the private car and aircraft and you would not want a car with rock hard seats.

If the attractive XC mk3 refurb complies with modern rules then it again makes one wonder why on earth First mk3s are such a mess.

And of course if your flight gets cancelled, i'm sure they'll be ready with a standby plane to get you on your way asap.   ::)

Funnily enough I encountered a lady passenger who should have been flying from Newquay to London? (I think) on Ryanair, and as her flight had been cancelled they washed their hands of her.  She said at the end of the day if her train to London is cancelled she can get the next one, and that TOCs have a duty to get her to her destination one way or another, whereas her flight ticket was useless.  When I asked if she was able to get a refund, she said, the ticket cost ^1.00.... and it wouldn't be worth the premium rate call to customer services!!

I am sure woody has never flown on a plane that was cancelled or delayed, so i'm sure he/she will be fine  ;)

Good for Chiltern then! The HSTs have longer windows, so it would be ridiculous to make every window line up.

I personally find the XC refurb to have quite hard seats, whilst the height of them is better, the legroom is rubbish, and I don't exactly normally have a problem with this.

Apparently, XC have reduced legroom (and therefore messed up views) by cramming more seats into their refurb 170s. ::)

I have not been on a XC HST (due to the timings), but I have seen photos. The seats look more comfortable than on FGW's, but they obviously are not!

I find the posture a bit odd, although it's nice to have a good selection of tables and a bit more luggage room.

welcome to the forum lukefarley.

I think some of you are missing the point I was trying to make.ie that its not where we are now but where we are heading in the 21st century transport wise in the far south west.The limitations of railway infrastructure particularly west of Exeter mean that there is only so much FGW can do while for airlines the sky is the limit development wise as it were.Even the HST replacement the Super Express Train order only covers the Padd/Bristol/Swansea services  on FGW.Replacement for Padd/Devon/Cornwall services is only an option,why just an option?
  Also you have to ask why is replacement of the much newer IC225 on the East coast main line a higher priority than replacement of the HST on FGW and then only for definite on Padd/Bristo/Swansea services.The feeling I get is that the far south west is off the Dfts rail radar as it were at a time when the airlines are clearly targeting rails traditional business particularly west of Exeter.I hope I am wrong as I would much prefer to see a genuine 21st railway see off the airlines in the south west but as things stand that^s simply not going to happen here.

IEP will be used in cornwall, like i said elswere, they are getting 70 sets for GW, they couldn't possibly use them all for bistols and swansea's, at the moment we got 53 HST's....maths.... ::)

Seats for 50 Passengers. But they also offer a Business Class service.

The planes they operate are Bombardier DHC8-311 ;D

Don't forget the time spent at the airport before the flight, as well as between landing and getting out of gatwick/london city and discovering that you are stranded in docklands or surrey...extra cost to get to central london 9 especially from gatwick), and thats before fog is considered

 

A fair proportion of the GW allocation of IEP is only half sets though; the ITT listed 39 full and 41 half. Although I accept the figures may have changed, we haven't any exact details yet of what proportion of each type will actually be produced AFAIK.
(Phase 1)
Self powered Full: Interurban 24 
Bi-mode Half: Commuter 38 
(Phase 2)
Self powered Full: Intercity 12. Interurban 3
Bi-mode Half: Commuter 3
Anyway, by the time they need to replace 53 HSTs, who knows what timetable FGW might be running? Unless IEP half sets are never running alone, you'd expect they would specify full sets, so which current services are suitable for half sets? Any electrification (yet to be decided) will change the requirement completely anyway.  Also all the IEP numbers quoted are in terms of daily diagrams so there will probably be at least 10% more actual trains, whereas 53 HSTs is the whole fleet.

Paul

50 seats! so lets put this into perspective, it holds 25 less passenger seats than A SINGLE 153!!! bear in mind getting to Newquay, 2 hours check in and arseing about at the other end then it's hardly a competition to FGW where you have a travelling chef on most trains serving real food (the new menu looks very good indeed ;D) toilets that you can actually fit into, more luggage allowence and ^10 to upgrade to FC on weekends, yes the business travellers (all 6 of them in Cornwall) may find it more usefull but most people prefer the easy life!

Unfortunately, I think that if you don't have hold luggage (i.e. most business travellers), you can check in 30 mins before departure.

If I had my way, I would introduce a law which states that for all domestic flights, you must turn up and check in, in person, at the airport no later than 3 hours before your flight. (Non - domestic flights not affected)

That would make most domestic air journeys 4+ hours, and would kill a lot of them off - thus reducing emissions and freeing up slots at busy airports for international flights.

That would just be silly.

Domestic air travel should simply be more controlled. There is no way you would get me catching the train to Scotland, (upon passing my test) it will be far cheaper for me to drive/fly and less stressful than 10 hours in a Voyager.

Vacman has a good point which I was going to mention but decided against it for fear of sounding stupid ;)

On the Bus Newquay Airport can be a pig to get to. You need to arrive, checking in about 45 minutes before your flight leaves. You will then get delayed for some silly reason. Then you can get on the plane, fly to London, then wait for your luggage to arrive. How long with it take...? How longs a piece of string...? Then you need to get to central London. By which time, it would have been quicker and more comfortable by rail.

What I like so much about rail travel is you can turn up at the station 10 minutes before the train leaves, buy a ticket and not need to have any form of identification to travel, get on the train without having to go through security, go to the buffet car or toilets when you want. Yes you get ticket checked on the journey... But equally it is much less of a hassle than having to have identification before even getting on the plane and going through security and all the other malarkey

Give me a HST any day ;)

I would rather sit for 10 hours in a Voyager than drive!

Ok - Voyagers are awful, but at least you don't have to concentrate on the road for hours on end!

just make sure you go on an XC HST! or break the journey up with a change somewhere.

But again, business travellers will drive to the airport, won't have luggage, will check in half an hour before hand, and those flying to London City Airport will be off the plane and in the City on the DLR pretty quickly (even quicker if they are going to Canary Wharf).

Compared with 5 hours by rail from north Cornwall.

Both services have their pros and cons. I'm very pro rail for domestic journeys, and if I have the time will travel from Bristol to Edinburgh/Glasgow by rail. But not if I'm doing it there and back in a day, or need to be there by 10am.

 

North Cornwall to London can be under 4 hours by train, driving to Bodmin Parkway..

I see your point. I can see why business travellers may prefer to fly rather than take a train because it may be quicker.

I prefer to travel by rail even if it does take longer. Simply because I don't like flying. I find it a hassle and stressful, whereas if I go by HST in First Class a very nice person will be quite willing to being me a cup of tea free of charge. I find it more relaxing and I can do some work on the tables ;D


I'm very pro rail myself. Even for long distance, but then I have never needed to go further than Newcastle (a journey I make about twice a year).

I agree that the services have their pros and cons as you have rightly pointed out ;) but rail is my personal preference ;D

I have always been very pro rail ever since I used to work for the S&T at Croydon many years ago.

All I was trying to point out is that the rail industry has to seriously improve the ambience of the train environment compared with the current offerings. This was always one of the great things about rail travel and it is all being thrown away due to OTT H&S requirements and the train operators cramming more in. The rail industry is just transferring the safety risk as rail was always the safest and by making the trains so uncomfortable and hemmed in that people travel by car or plane is actually increasing the overall risk.

I do not like it but I can see from personal experience that once business people have a good experience flight from Newquay they tend to continue. In our case 30 min check in or less and a walk from Gatwick airport with no luggage for a day trip. One of the plane's limitations was frequency but with the latest competition, I think it is now up to seven flights a day, that will soon be removed. Even worse, Newquay airport has lousy public transport so nearly everyone drives. I have done day trips by HST from Truro to London but I do not think that is a market for the business traveller.

One route that seems very poorly served by rail is the West Country to Southampton/Portsmouth. There is a vast potential between the Military establishments and many people who have moved to the west country from this area who travel back and forth to visit. We had the daily Penzance to Portsmouth train which was very slow and now nothing. Most travel now is by car and I presume soon all SWT trains west of Exeter will soon be gone.

 

Any idea if an Okehampton-Waterloo fast service would take around the same time? At present it's 3h from EXD. With the A30 having been upgraded, Much of West Devon & North-East Cornwall could get to Okehampton relatively quickly, I'd have thought.
   

I understand a recent survey found that a large proportion of Tiverton Parkway's users are from Cornwall......

That's interesting, but not surprising. There's no point driving from Bude to Liskeard to catch a train going north, so the natural railhead for North Cornwall is Exeter..... but due to congestion, even the rail replacement buses to Plymouth use Tiverton Parkway instead of Exeter St Davids.

It is quicker "door to door" for me to get from the wilds of shropshire to Belfast by plane than to get to London by train. 

The REALITY of low cost domestic flights:

1. Check in online, no luggage - Turn up at the airport 30 minutes before flight
2. Check in online, luggage drop - Turn up 40 minutes before flight
3. Low cost airlines tend to board very efficiently
4. Most of the time (heathrow excepted) the luggage is waiting there by the time you get to the carousel
5. On the road within minutes

short domestic flights also have LOTS of slack in them - so if they schedule an hour, chances are on average its about 40 minutes and you arrive early

Typically on a friday I leave the office at 430pm, drive to airport, flight 530, on the ground by 615, in car by 630 - home by 715

that is 2:45 minutes - cotswolds train takes just that to get to worcester from Pad.

A return ticket costs me ^68.40 including tax.

is it any wonder people are using the airlines more and more. 

What about a new parkway station at Exminster close to the M5,could be attractive to car users from as far afield as Torbay and even down the A38 to Plymouth.Could be a way of stemming the loss of long distance passengers to road and air as the 21st century unfolds west of Exeter.

Most Torbay rail passengers will use Totnes, or Newton Abbot (although that requires a hellish drive along the A380 Newton Road)

Probably explains why Totnes passenger numbers are so high. 484466 p.p.a

The other night a late running 1506 Padd-Pnz was run fast between Ply and Pnz, the train left Ply at 1934 (52 late) and arrived in pnz at 2051 despite being held at Baldhu and Penponds due to catching up with the XC service in front, so it shows that if a fast service from Cornwall was considered - even a "taster" then it could be very appealling, for e.g. Penzance-Truro-Bodmin Parkway-Plymouth-Reading-Paddington Lets say 1hr 20 between pnz-Ply, 2 hrs 50 ply-Pad thats 4hrs 10 all in all, 3hrs 35 Bod-Pad that would be attractive bear in mind thats with NO infrastructure improvements so would cost sod all to do! Bodmin is a major railhead and so is Truro both have ample parking, also, run a stopper up in front of the HST to pick up from the normal stops. You could argue for an Exeter stop but this train would be a premier train for Plymouth and Cornwall. and before everyone starts putting other stops into the equasion lets just remember how much time was saved by NOT stopping! nearly 50 mins!

Most trains could be marginally faster, they have copious amounts of slack approaching Reading, and often arrive late due to rubbish regulation.

I agree with Vacman. We need to start removing stops on these really long routes. (like VT have done)

Obviously, run stoppers as well to connect.

From the May timetable there is another Pnz-Pad that takes less than 5 hours depart pnz 0844 arrive Pad 1342! Could be better if they took out the Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Par and Liskeard stops though! oh, and St Erth

Redruth serves the largest urban area in Cornwall and is the railhead for the Lizard peninsula though so I think trains should stop there or are you suggesting that everyone should drive to Truro?

The problem with removing St Erth, Par and Liskard is loosing the branch line feeders.

Now, if they extended a St Ives train to Penzance, and a Newquay train to Plymouth - you could cut the stops and keep the trade.

Good to see some of slack is being removed. Today the said service sat at Reading for 5 minutes, Exeter 3 and arrived into London 3 early.

This is the Cornish Riv as far as I am aware, so isnt the purpose for it to serve as much as Cornwall as possible, nobody wants to change  :)

I travel to Penzance several times a year and seeing the numbers who join a long distance up train at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard, I see no justification for removing stops. All these stations serve considerable population beyond their immediate area. The problem for Cornish passengers with the London trains is that many of them stop too many times east of Plymouth, with resulting overcrowding and long journey times.

The 1737 from Penzance is very convenient for me travelling to Bristol, but if I was going from Cornwall to London I'd be annoyed by the detour, likewise the 0730 from Paddington -- I've probably caught that train more than any other as it's been the only morning intercity service from Bristol to Cornwall for donkey's years, but it's bloody slow for passengers from London.

If you look at an average Pad train through Cornwall then you'll see that most long distance customers join at Penzance, Truro and Bodmin Parkway, yes you get others but it would be for the greater good to run a decent fast service, a load who join at Redruth are just going to Plymouth, if you keep in stops like Redruth then you lose the whole point of running a fast service!

AS mentioned elsewhere then, run a 0606 Paddington - Penzance and run the return fairly fast.

Traditionally, the Cornish Riviera made very few stops in Cornwall. In 1957 (summer), for instance, the up Cornish Riviera (weekdays) stopped only at St Erth, Gwinear Road, Truro and Par before Plymouth, with the run taking two hours twenty minutes.

Is that not just 1A81 timed differently?

This debate raises the interesting general issue of FGW having abandoned the traditional practice of long distance trains stopping at a number of stations in their "hinterland" then running fast to London, viz the old Riviera running fast to/from Exeter (or Plymouth on summer Saturdays), the Golden Hind fast, as I recall, to/from Taunton, the Cathedrals Express (see separate post) fast to/from Oxford, the Red Dragon fast to/from Bristol Parkway and in the old days the Birkenhead expresses fast to/from Leamington Spa.

The inhabitants of Cornwall, Devon, Gloucestershire, South Wales, Herefordshire deserve at least one fast express in each direction.

Nostalgia - my late father used to recall that, in the late 1940s, if you needed to get from Brum to London quickly you went to Snow Hill, not New Street.

The problem is, there is now a standard service pattern, so axing stops nearer London is hard. eg. the 2tph Oxford to London service calls at Reading and Slough. If you remove these stops on a service, you are removing those stations' fast trains for that hour.

This is because there are no spare paths for extra fast trains.

Now, if there were extra tracks between Reading and London, there would be paths to have trains skipping Reading and others - the "standard" service pattern could also run to compensate.

The WCML now does this. The main afternoon departure to Glasgow calls at Preston only. An extra service follows this train as far as Preston and makes all of the calls that the express misses.

Looks like it. The other of course being the up Golden Hind.

Given the vast sums of public money that have been pumped into the rail industry since privatisation it is a sad reflection just how relatively little has been achieved since BR days on FGW,particularly in the south west and that we are having to have these debates.

By the look of the mass passenger numbers lately on ALL Cornwall-Padd and Padd-Cornwall HST services over the past month it looks like Air southwest are doing very little to coax customers from the railway like they were hoping!

Air Southwest seat around 50 passengers per plane.  To put this into perspective - just over one HST coachload

Rail will always take the bigger numbers between the South West and London/Birmingham, despite Air Southwest's very proactive marketing.


   

Just UNDER one coachload you mean! I wish FGW would grow some balls and start some retaliating advertising to them though, Ilike air southwests environment bit on their website comparing their flight to a voyager between Plymouth and Glasgow and that per passenger their plane is more environmentally friendly based on the train being 30% full and the plane 70% full.... even on those statistics the plane only just comes in front, now why dont they try comparing a full HST with a Full plane between Plymouth and Padd??? I know why, because the plane would be grossly worse!!!!!!!!! I like Andrew Adonis' plan though, meaning the end of short haul flights in the UK hopefully..

Yes, of course, under one coachload.

I must have been thinking First Class!

I'm sure FGW are helping to boast Air South West's success by rising certain London fares from ^83 to ^100!!!

I suspect most people from Cornwall travel on advance purchase tickets to London.

To be honest you never really see any "walk up" type tickets from Cornwall to London/Reading, you can work a train through Cornwall that is pretty full and see only 2 or 3 Off-Peak tickets, I don't think these type fares have any effect towards the air lines as they are for people who actually turn up and go which isn't possible on air lines!

Mike Coombes, Air Southwest's Commercial Director, commented: "Our flights to London City Airport have quickly established themselves as the speediest and most cost effective way to get from Devon and Cornwall to the heart of London.  This new express shuttle service direct to Canary Wharf makes it even quicker and easier for our customers from the South West to get down to business in the capital."
http://www.airsouthwest.com/news/shownews.php?ne_id=259
 Hype or what?

Not hype, just absolute b*llocks! For a day business trip Plymouth to London next Monday (15/02) the only flights are out 0750-0900 and back 1905-2015 for the sum of ^211.
Without any effort I have found an FGW Plymouth-London U1 fare of ^137.50 which gets you to the smoke for 0930 and allows an 1800 departure. I haven't checked but I would imagine that for an early start the Night Riviera up to London would be cheaper.
Cost effective? I don't think so.
Describing London City Airport and/or Canary Wharf as the 'heart' of London is straight out of the Ryanair Guide To Air Travel.

TfL's journey planner gives travel time from Paddington to Bank as 21 minutes and City Airport to Bank as 23 mins. (bear in mind, Bank is at the hear of the City of London, which is where many business people will be heading). And I dare say the DLR is more reliable than the Circle Line. So in comparison with where FGW dumps you in London, there's absolutely nothing in it.

And London City Airport is clearly closer to the City than LHR or LGW, so I don't think that part of Air SouthWest's claim is unreasonable at all.

Though I would agree that in other respects the argument is much less clear cut,  in terms of overall journey time (check in, etc), frequency of service etc.

London City Airport is a breeze, have landed internationally there, reclaimed luggage, through Passport Control and onto the DLR platform in seven minutes from Engine Stop to top of escalator at the station.

Sorry Bob, but I feel your response is somewhat over the top - rather hysterical "rail travel good, air travel bad" type of stuff. Doesn't do much for sensible comparisons.  As has already been pointed out, it depends where you are going (and from), City Airport is a cracker too !

A bit of "bullocks" maybe, but  certainly not "b*llocks" ! 

John R's journey planner times are most revealing. Shows that Paddington is actually a long way West and City Airport is not as far East as one would think.

As for cost effectiveness it depends on where you want to go in London and how easy it is for you get to either Plymouth Airport or Plymouth Station and how much the overall journey costs (home to meeting location) and the overall time away from home.

I would suggest this would vary from person to person and even it's the same person where the meeting is and their personal cost/time frame.

Thus the old saying goes you pays your money and takes your choice.

.... and if the business is paying from door to door pay costs need to be added to the equation too.

Not forgetting that the ambience of Plymouth Airport and LCY cannot be compared to North Road or Paddington too.

Cheaper than buying a SOR on FGW

Slightly off topic ... I find that there are many occasions that I'm in London and Paddington is - well - not the part of London that I need; more often I'm looking for the City, and I used to do a lot of work just south of Tower Bridge. Journey times (ex Trowbridge) to the South Bank / nearest station to where I was going - between 2 hours 20 minutes and 2 hours 30 minutes, no real difference via Salisbury, Westbury and Paddington or Bath and Paddington. And I remember what a pain it was from Paddingto to Excel.  With luggage and on a budget, FGW isn't always the best choice to London, even if their trains get you to one part of the place quite quickly.

... Paddington - Excel is one of the simplest cross London trips actually (PAD-BakerSt Bakerloo, BakerSt-Canning Town Jubilee, then DLR) Baker St change being on Adjacent platform.

The reason these flights exist at all is because the rail alternative has stagnated for 30 odd years with no sign of improvement.Whether you like it or not these flights are used by people who no longer regard rail as a viable alternative anymore in the far west.For instance the reality is that the first train from Paddington to Plymouth direct is the the 0730 departure arriving Plymouth a 1120ish.To arrive earlier involves a change at Bristol and an equally long journey.The plane will get you to Plymouth an hour earlier after a 70 minute flight from London city.That is not Bo---cks just reality and why even these limited air links are regarded as vitally important to the economy of the far south west.It is now the 21st century and the railway needs to up its game in the west,easier said than done of course.

up on the sleeper and back on the down "Hind" ^86.00 Off-Peak return, in London in time for breakfast, after a nights sleep! I think ASW have poached people from their cars rather than the railway as the 0552 Ply-Pad and the up Hind are still as busy as they've always been, only thing i've noticed is that there are more Advance tickets, there was a rumour that FGW were going to make the hind an Off-Peak service but I think now that we're on the way out of recession they'll scrap that idea.

Comparing Ply-London journey times there isn't an awful lot in it though, bear in mind that the ASW flights from Plymouth fly via Newquay! after getting to the airport etc and checking in there's bugger all in it.

Also, the trains that stop at the likes of Saltash and Ivybridge can actually create faster services for some people, getting the train from your doorstep to the capital without touching the car!

??????

(http://i49.tinypic.com/fyq0sl.jpg)

 I think ASW have poached people from their cars rather than the railway
[/quote]
You did not see the recent advertising campaign by ASW recently at Paddington specifically targeting rail users then.I can assure you that many users of ASW particularly to London city are former rail users.The only saving grace for FGW at the moment is the very limited air capacity currently available because of Plymouths short runway and the small aircraft that can land there so until that changes ASW will continue to be limited to a niche market and the railways have little to worry about.As for the future who knows.

ASW do fly via Newquay to London for the Gatwick services but not for London City services.

You did not see the recent advertising campaign by ASW recently at Paddington specifically targeting rail users then.I can assure you that many users of ASW particularly to London city are former rail users.The only saving grace for FGW at the moment is the very limited air capacity currently available because of Plymouths short runway and the small aircraft that can land there so until that changes ASW will continue to be limited to a niche market and the railways have little to worry about.As for the future who knows.
[/quote]I did indeed see their rather sly advertising campaign, somehow filling our trains with leaflets! but from Cornwall at least, I still see all of the regulars we've always had, albeit mostly travelling on Advance.
Advance fares on the Hind can be got for ^38.50 from Cornwall.

what is FC patronage like on the Hind like these days? I know it used to be a good loader

As regards that ASW advertising campaign last autumn(ish) I remember at the time seeing from a train a huge lineside ASW banner in a farmers field between Westbury and Pewsey exclaiming "London to Plymouth in only 70 minutes.By now you could be there" while the Paddington circle line underground ticket hall area and pedestrien access tunnels were literally plastered with ASW posters for what seemed like several months  proclaiming among other things "London to Cornwall in only 2 hours".Such a high profile campaign must have cost a bomb so presumably they considered it worthwhile.
 Personally as things stand there is enough business to keep both FGW and ASW happy.Its a case of "horses for courses" really,if your in a big hurry and your prepared to pay then air has the advantage from Plymouth but if your not in such a hurry and cost/flexibility is a factor then clearly rail is the choice.

I think the adverts in the fields "you'd be there by now" (there is one going north on the approach to Tiverton Parkway) are still in place.  Perhaps a little misleading as you can technically arrive at the station with 2 minutes to spare to get on the train, which is not true of any airport (unless you're having a cameo part for easyJet on "Airline"  ;D).

"The train was late"  :D

WOW London to Plymouth in 2 hours? it's only 3 on some trains, so by the time you've checked in and all it's probably quicker by train! The main competition is from Cornwall to London rather than Plymouth.

Its the London City flights(only 2 a day) not the Gatwick ones that that are the real alternative to rail for a few.Flight times from Plymouth to London city is only 70 minutes while from Newquay it is 105 minutes.Even with all the air add-on time it is still an attractive proposition for some as the following two quotes from Air South West users I found on their website.
  Claire Whelan works as a Market Insight Manager for an international magazine publishing house in London and frequently uses Air Southwest's London City Service to commute to London.  She said: " The flights are really quick and offer great connections to the tube network.  I work three days a week in London and two days from Cornwall so I've been able to plan my travel requirements and book tickets quite far in advance to get the lowest fares which offer excellent value for money.  The 7pm flights are really useful because I'm able to leave work at 5pm and have plenty of time to catch my flight and still get back to Cornwall earlier than if I'd caught a train at rush hour."

Sally Baxter works for the international HR specialists Penna and splits her working week between the head office in London and her home in Plymouth.  She said:
" Air Southwest's flights from my local airport to London City have made a huge difference to me.  I made the decision two and a half years ago to live in the South West and work in London but in my attempt to strike a good work life balance I found that the train was rather hard work. Travelling by air and saving two hours on my Monday morning commute to London means that I can start meetings earlier and generally feel more energized at the start of my working week.  I enjoy the warm welcome I always receive from the cabin-crew and the fact that I'm treated as an individual, not just a ticket number."
 Clearly some people are clearly in denial on this one,personally I think it a case of "you pays your and takes your choice".
 As for the Gatwick flights most people who use them simply connect into other flights at Gatwick.From Plymouth/Newquay there are 4 daily Air South West Gatwick flights plus an additional 3 daily flybe flights from Newquay to Gatwick.Going from Plymouth to London via Gatwick though is clearly not worth the hastle by air the train is clearly better although from Newquay it could be worth the Hastle.

Local BBC news in Devon has just announced(5th May 2010) that Air South West is to withdraw its twice daily Newquay/Pymouth/London City flights from the 21st May citing that it has not been able to attract enough passengers from other modes of transport and the financial effects of the current volcanic crisis in Iceland.It claims its established four times daily Newquay/Pymouth/London Gatwick flights are well used and are not effected.(Yet!)

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8661419.stm):

Was very pleasing news at 07:57 in the morning.

Amusingly I thought of 'woody' and a number of his comments regarding FGWs profits being knocked.  :D

 ;D

what a shame, oh dear hehehehehehehehe

More info here- http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Plymouth-8217-s-London-air-link-axe-blamed-high-costs-low/article-2110532-detail/article.html.
It an ill wind(even a volcanic one) that does not blow some good.

It is almost always sad when a transport link is reduced / closed down - it takes away an opportunity and can have a serious effect not only on the obvious users of the route, but some of the hidden ones too.  You won't find me cheering at the loss of a service even one that happens to compete with the mode I would typically choose to use. However, there is a need for a shakeout from time to time - a rejigging / rebalancing of services.

I'm out of the UK at the moment - flew yesterday, long haul.  There are at least three flights a day from London (Heathrow) to the airport that I landed at, and all three of them were at the arrival gates along side each other.   Yet the plane we were in was only between 25% and 40% full (interesting, higher occupany rate in business and first judging by numbers given to me by flight crew).  Now this situation has me wondering at the effect on the economics, the environment, etc, really justify all three flights.   With a 7 hour journey, and a major timezone change, I can't imagine the (say) hour or so between each of the planes makes a major difference.

I have no sympathy for ASW, they chose to take on the big boys and they got hurt! Their advertising was specificly aimed at the railways with adverts that were distasteful to say the least, whilst FGW simply sat quietly and didn't bite back. They played with fire and got their backsides burned!

This comment from a reader of the Plymouth Evening Herald seems to hit the nail on the head.
 " Load factors on any route are not the defining figures.

Yield is the important calculation, ie the amount an airline makes in profit from a route.

If an airline's costs are high to operate a route then fares rise to try to compensate but this is a tricky calculation because if the fares are set too high people won't travel.

The London City route is a particular problem because that airport sets very high charges for airlines.

ASW might have charged what some people believe to be high fares but if they did they weren't high enough to overcome the airport's charges.

Don't look at this route in isolation. London City has lost a number of routes and carriers in the past year, almost all serving airports much bigger and busier than Plymouth.
James, South West"

Transport experts (!) are frequently quoted as saying that for overland point-to-point journeys of less than (approximately) 250 miles, train almost always beats plane given reasonable linespeeds (100mph+) for a significant part of the journey.
On that basis this looks like a fairly inevitable result.
Point-to-point timings for Plymouth-London sectors are roughly the same and prices seem also to be comparable when 'walk-up' rail fares are involved - when advance purchase is possible rail wins easily on price.
Given its relative isolation and distance from the main Cornish business centres I have never been convinced that Newquay-London City services would be viable.
I suspect the Newquay/Plymouth-Gatwick services will survive purely because of the onward journey opportunities.

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8705427.stm):

Plymouth airline Air Southwest is to be sold after a tough year for transport sector
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Plymouth-airline-Air-Southwest-sold-chairman-announced/article-2215732-detail/article.html
 Hard to say what the ramifications of this decision will be at this stage but owners Sutton Harbour Holdings are a property development company first and transport provider second.

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-11031904):



By the way: while I was trying to decide where to post this latest item of news on the subject of Newquay Airport, I found there were already several previous topics on the subject.  As some of them fitted together, fairly neatly, in terms of chronology, I've taken the opportunity to merge them here - while keeping the original topic headings, just for clarity, as usual!  ;)

CfN.  :)

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11368697):

The company, which was sold by Plymouth's Sutton Harbour Holdings to Eastern Airways at the end of last year, has today announced changes to its operational schedule and will cease flying from Newquay and Plymouth airports to London Gatwick from February 1.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Air-Southwest-scraps-flights-Pymouth-London/article-3082115-detail/article.html

Looking at the comments section at the bottom of the above report, the people of Plymouth aren't very happy about this.

Hmm...have to say that the bulk of those comments just strike me as the "usual suspects", a gang of raging right-wing whingers with nothing better to do with their time than scour local news websites looking for an outlet for their inexplicable bile. I would bet very good money that the overwhelming majority of them have never set foot on an ASW aircraft.

Let's face it, if those flights really were "vital" to the economy of Plymouth, presumably someone would have actually used them, in which case they wouldn't be getting the chop.

Going to be disastrous for incoming investment, the real big players wont be content with the rail equivalent, hopefully Flybe will up their game at Newquay, Several highprofile projects could be at threat. Some weekly commuters are going to be very seriously affected, those who choose to spend their weekends here and spend heavily whilst here and work in London during the week.

Pity really, as rapid links into the world air system are essential these days.

The company I worked for 27 years in Plymouth (which litrally overlooks the end of Plymouths runway) is an American owned company who top people regularly use the air link to/fro the states.For them rail is not an option to travel to Plymouth and there are many firms in the Plymouth area in their position and as one wag put it on another Rail Forum west of Exeter its the "speed of a cow".Hence the genuine concern for the loss of the air links.Personally now I am not bothered(I am not in a hurry anymore) but I can see why some other people are.

Probably true, but a flight from Newquay or Plymouth to Gatwick does not, realistically, link you into the world air system unless you regard the world air system as Gatwick's staple diet of charter flights to Malaga and Mykonos. To reach the bulk of the world air system you need to make a cumbersome train or bus journey through to Heathrow (for which BA recommends a connection time of the order of 3 hours), and unless you're able to make a through booking including your onward flight then you're high and dry if anything goes awry with ASW or your connection to Heathrow.

Faced with that, the difference between a straightforward train journey to LHR (either using Reading RailAir or HEx) and a flight to Gatwick I would suspect becomes rather marginal. This may be why this allegedly essential link has not proved economic. That may be particularly true when you consider the flexibility and frequency of service offered by FGW compared to ASW on the return journey: if your flight back from wherever is seriously delayed then I would suspect you may find yourself waiting some considerable time for the next ASW service home, whereas unless it's very late at night FGW would probably be able to accommodate you an hour or so later.

Gatwick has global links. It's very much an international hub, see the list of destinations here ....

http://www.gatwickairport.com/flights/destinations/

Technically true but a bit disingenuous to post that link without putting the list in some kind of context - true there is an extensive European network from Gatwick, operated both by BA and low-cost carriers, but globally...?

Virgin, BA, US Airways and a few others operate limited services out of Gatwick to the USA, true. But these aside, the vast majority of the non-European destinations on that list you will notice are served by airlines such as Thomas Cook and Monarch. Thomas Cook has a total of 21 long-haul capable aircraft (assuming their 757 fleet is used for ETOPS operations), and Monarch has 2 (or possibly 9 if you factor in some ancient A300 and 757-200 aircraft), so although there is a long list of "global" destinations that they serve, scheduled flights to them are going to be extremely thin on the ground and certainly seasonal. Something tells me you're not going to be flying from Gatwick to Calgary, for example, much more frequently than once a week, and then only in ski season...

Its not that much faster to fly. Given that you have to spend 1 hour in the terminal before the flight and then spend some time actually getting to London itself.

I flew down from Edinburgh and it was only 2 hours quicker than the train!

Free train offer for Air Southwest London passengers.First Great Western (FGW) will honour tickets from Plymouth or Newquay after Air Southwest announced flights would stop at the end of January.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12166485

You have to admire FGWs chutzpah. Stick another nail in the coffin!  ;D ;D ;D

First class as well - looks like FGW might have an impressive PR coup on their hands here!

exactly impress the people who've lost their flight, have a good train journey in first class, job done, they'll book future journeys through FGW

As mentioned above,a train Paddington to Plymouth is pretty much the same journey time (inclusive of check in times etc) as going Victoria-gatwick-plymouth, then from plymouth airport into the city.
what is the average journey time Paddington-Plymouth
by air:
Victoria-Gatwick approx 30mins?
check in min 1 hour
flight 90 mins,
check out at plymouth with baggage collection 30mins approx (although i've known baggage collection at gatwick to take up to an hour going the other way)
Taxi into Plymouth from airport 15mins?
so the air travel option is looking at 3 1/2-4 hours total time

Bear in mind the fact that many people in business travel without baggage - simply walk on bags.

and the fact you can get a decent breakfast on the morning trains.

FGW's generous offer of free train travel to London if you have a valid Air Southwest ticket is now mentioned on the FGW website:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=5214

I was looking over an internal weekly newsletter about this and apparently they can also exchange it for a sleeper berth. Don't know if that would be free or otherwise.
I will have to have a closer look and find out what its all about.

Didn't vermin WC do something like this a while back saying that if you exchanged your check-in ticket or e-ticket theyd give you a free first class ticket London - Somewhere.

Yes, I remember that too...was it during the ash chaos last spring, or a marketing stunt when they launched the Pendolino service or the VHF timetable? Or some other time...?

It  was a few years back when VWC were trying (and succeded) in claiming the majority market share of Manchester to London traffic,

With reference to FGWs generous offer to honour Air South West ticket holders from the 1st February,there are certainly plenty of empty seats to fill.The up "Hind" the 0505 Penzance/Paddington was only loaded to single figures Friday morning though mid and west Cornwall.Where are all the passenger,Newquay Airport?.Perhaps it time for FGW to relax some of its ticketing restrictions on these now lighty loaded services.

What about after Plymouth, it really picks up through Devon as far as i'm aware.

Indeed. The up 'Hind' gets its fair share of patronage from Plymouth onward. And has done ever since its introduction:

From FGW's 'Named Trains' section of its network Timetable:
:)

The following story from the The Herald (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/fast-service-trouble/article-3095851-detail/article.html) (Plymouth) is relevant to this thread so I've posted it here rather than in the 'London to the West' board:


Should we also point out that planes also occasionally breakdown? And if that breakdown occurs mid-flight things can be a darn sight worse for the passengers compared to a train grinding to a halt.

And someone needs to tell Kirstie Humphries that there is a sleeper service from the south-west.

Interesting that he sees that as a priority. One eye on Dawlish, perhaps?

Quote "We were heading to Westminster to meet Plymouth Sutton and Devonport Tory MP Oliver Colvile, who had invited us to a meeting with Dr Simon Thurley, chief executive of English Heritage, to discuss at-risk Plymouth buildings."What Plymouth station buildings!

Devonport Tory MP Oliver Colvile should be promoting electrification of Plymouths rail link to London now instead of the silly idea of a fast bus link between Plymouth and Exeter.

Not that a fast bus link will ever compete with the train, it's approximately 60miles and what with buses limited to 60mph on dual carriageways its at least 60 minutes journey time.

That's a fairly poor approximation; it's nearer 45 miles...


...and National Express have two services per day timetabled for 55 minutes.

the Herald's piece does point to the rather inefficient way that we hold meetings. At least 2 people going from Plymouth to London to meet 1 person - the other way around might be more effective, especially as they were talking about buildings at risk in Plymouth. Others travelling to meetings in London. I accept that video conferencing isn't quite the same as person to person, but a lot cheaper and time efficient. Not good for FGW's ticket sales though.

Agree with others, no sympathy for ASW as they so aggressively targeted rail customers. With regards to the popular opinion in Plymouth (Evening Herald et al) some of the misconceptions about the rail service are staggering :-\ The great majority of HST services to Plymouth arrive more or less on time and yet one breakdown en route is front page news. Compare that with ASW's inability to even take off during the recent cold weather. I especially enjoyed the suggestion by one FGW passenger that there should be a sleeper service ??? It's in every timetable, the website and prominently advertised at major FGW stations, for goodness sake...

Anyway, my main gripe is the seemingly popular belief that Gatwick is in London. How ironic that those who chose ASW because of the 'unreliable' trains were themselves first in the queue for the Gatwick Express. All comparisons I've encountered seem to compare (unfairly) ASW Ply/Nqy - Gtw v FGW Ply - Pad.

So...

London Reading Station! Just 2.5 hours from Plymouth! Fast connections to the Capital! No need to change trains!

 ;)

in the news today Ryanair have pulled all flights out of Newquay, so much for Newquay airport being developed etc, going backwards not forwards now
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-12214475

From The Herald (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/YES/article-3107021-detail/article.html) (Plymouth):


A large article so I've not quoted it in full. Read on here (http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/YES/article-3107021-detail/article.html).

Professor Peter Gripaios from the University of Plymouth said he believed Plymouths airport's days were "probably numbered" following the withdrawal of the Gatwick airlink from today.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-12321528.
  Lets hope the government takes this into account when it finally decides what it is going to do regards HST replacement and electrification.,but I suspect not this far south west.

A reporter from our local BBC news, etc. programme 'Spotlight' travelled on the last early ASW flight from Plymouth this morning.

From the footage broadcast I would guess that the 'plane was no more than half full; a fair reflection of normal loadings or have lots of passengers already moved to alternative forms of transport?

Interestingly bmi have announced they are withdrawing from Heathrow to Glasgow leaving BA as the sole operator - it doesn't pay!

Is this a trend? Will we see more domestic flights going? Does this mean more business travellers are going by train, or by car, or staying at their offices and video conferencing?

Stock market announcment this morning that Plymouth city airport is to close in Deecember 2011.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13219590

All we need now is for the McNulty report to knock the final nail into Plymouth economic coffin.

More here:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13219590

somebodys already started a thread on this, this morning

Ah I missed that - mods please feel free to delete my thread.

Paul




_{Edit note: Purely for continuity reasons, I've merged both topics here, rather than delete any member's posts. CfN. :)}

The 'Analysis' from BBC South West Business Correspondent, Neil Gallacher, that accompanies that story is interesting.


Are 'The Pilgrims' thinking of moving?

Only as far as the Bankruptcy Court - they are around ^17.5m in debt.

I would regard the closure of an airport as good news for the enviroment.
It would appear that significant numbers of passengers are useing rail instead of air, and I  hope that the trend will continue with more airports closing.
Recent reports in the railway press note considerable shifts from air to rail over recent years, though Plymouth is not specificly mentioned.

Although the rail services to Plymouth could no doubt be improved, they are not bad compared to some cities.

There is growing evidence that crude oil production has reached a peak, and is now declining, which will lead to rapidly increasing prices.
Aircraft are almost totally reliant on fuels derived from crude oil.
Diesel trains use less fuel, and could eventually be replaced with electric ones.
I doubt that we will ever see an electric aeroplane with significant speed, payload and range.

I doubt it too. How do you string overhead wires at 30000 feet?  :P ;) ;D

You don't need to. You run a rail along the ground and pick up from a shoe.  Been doing it on the Southern for years.  ;D

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/leccyplane.jpg)

Didn't a solar powered electric plane fly round the world?

Admittedly there were only one or two people on board and they were the pilots.

There have been a number of flights useing batteries, or solar power, or both.
These are interesting research projects, but are most unlikely to ever lead to large electric aircraft with range, speed, and payload comparable to kerosene burning planes.
The energy contained in say 1,000 kilos of batteries is very much less than that in the same weight of kerosene.
Peak oil=peak air travel.

Tim Jones, chairman of the Devon and Cornwall Business Council has urged Sutton Harbour and Plymouth city council, which owns the land on which the airport is built not to use it for housing or any other use, suggesting it be "mothballed" for five years until the economy picks up adding that "If the city had a motorway or a fast train line this move would be more palatable. But without them the airport is a vital transport link."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/28/plymouth-city-airport-to-close.
The trouble was although a"vital transport link." it had become hopelessly uneconomic and is symptomatic of the now wider problem of too many small uneconomic airports in Britains today.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/plymouth-airport-closure-a-sign-of-things-to-come-2276386.html

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13274216):

watching on bbc news the figure on 100 passengers a day .......

Doesn't the fact that is was uneconomic because there were very few people using it imply that those who claim it was "vital" might not be entirely correct...?

The airport has been on a downward decline since it lost flights to Heathrow 10 years ago when it was considered "vital" to the local economy and Gatwick has never really been a substitute to the train from Plymouth to London.Therefore the loss of Plymouths airport had an inevitability about it,with the loss of the Gatwick link in February being the final nail in its coffin.Plymouth airport RIP.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13274216

But that's rather my point... Presumably the Heathrow and subsequently the Gatwick flights were withdrawn because they didn't generate enough patronage to pay for themselves. If you can't muster up enough punters to fill a dinky little turboprop aircraft a couple of times a day then more or less by definition in my book the airport isn't, and never was, 'vital'.

Agree entirely, I believe that lightly used transport facilities should be subsidised in special cases when withdrawl would cause significant hardship or dislocation.
Examples could include air or ferry services to remote islands, lightly used rural rail services, or maintaining roads at the public expense, even when not much used.
I dont belive that Plymouth airport falls into any such category.
Plymouth is fairly well served by rail, and the trains are far more frequent than the very limited air service. The train is slower, but not by that much when one considers travell to/from the airports and check in times.
There is no deneying that passengers have voted with their feet, with the air service being little used.

And 100 passengers through the airport = 50 in & 50 out (on average)

Now Exeter based Flybe feels the pinch.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-13297311
The Flybe share price fell 20% with the news.

I'd be glad when Cornwall council stop pouring ^Millions into Newquay Airport.  ;D ;D ;D

Link to full article here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14154909).

According to the below linked Plymouth Evening herald article David Parlby, chief executive of Plymouth Chamber of Commerce, said the latest announcement is a "blow" but not unexpected given recent uncertainty surrounding the airport.

He said: "This puts a dent in air services for the South West generally and reinforce's the Chamber's belief that we need to look very hard at how rail services can be improved from Plymouth to London."

They are calling for more frequent and earlier three-hour services to the capital, as well as better Wifi and mobile phone connectivity in trains.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Air-Southwest-calls-halt-flights-city/story-12946445-detail/story.html
 Could the Paddington to Penzance route be incorporated into the Great Western Upgrade given the changed circumstances?

What does this leave at newquay, is it just Flybe, and the isle of scilly services now?

Sorry, i'm not in favour of total mobile phone coverage on trains! Nowt wrong with wifi which ought to be franchise committed going forward.

Can you imagine a whole ciach incessantly chattering on their mobiles all the time? Because it'll happen....

Why not designate one carriage as "mobile phone free" ...  ;D :D ;) ...

How about one coach labelled 'mobile phones only' :-)

With mobiles banned in the others. Texting allowed though

I thought the Quiet coach was supposed to be mobile free now.

It is. If mobile coverage was permanent on trains, my point is that you'd need more than one quiet ciach for those trying to escape the incessant din!
I was suggesting putting all those who live on their phones in one coach, and they can loudly talk over others doing the same....

Remembering the very small number of air passengers compared to rail users, I would not expect much increase in rail use from this.
Good news for the enviroment though, air travell uses a lot of increasingly expensive fuel. Despite the worrying economic situation, crude oil remains at about $100.
Any hint of economic recovery is likely to drive oil prices up substantialy, so it is no good the airline industry hoping things will improve, they wont, at least as regards air travel.

Trains need oil fuel as well of course, but it is a smaller proportion of operating costs than with aircraft.

The last commercial flight departs from Plymouth Airport on Thursday(today) after about 90 years of services.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-14319875

Bus to Newquay!

Hilarious

Bloody stupid as well, take the Bus WEST to then fly EAST.

mite aswell drive to exeter airport.. ...... only in devon !!

What a shame, they tried to take on the big boys and lost, after their rather aggressive anti rail campaign I have absolutely no sympathy!

Writing in a purely personal capacity here (rather than as a moderator, or admin), I agree entirely with vacman: Air SouthWest have let me down very badly in the past - to the extent that I even chose to use Voyagers instead!  :o ::) ;D

oh dear god no :-0

I know: but the service from Air Southwest was simply 'appalling'!  ;) :D ;D

This was posted in the local morning news paper and explains in great detail the real reasons behind why Air Southwest aka Eastern Airlines are pulling the plug at Plymouth and Newquay airports

Air Southwest has been widely criticised for leaving Plymouth without an airlink. Yet the company^s former compliance and safety manager, Keith Boxall, believes the blame lies elsewhere.

It's about time that somebody told the truth about the demise of the airline that served Plymouth. For weeks now Air Southwest has been blamed for "pulling out" of Plymouth, when actually it was forced out and also forced into closure.

​Airport Sutton Harbour Group lost staff after its announcement that the airport would close in December

Sutton Harbour Group lost staff after its announcement that the airport would close in December


The first problem was a "turf war" with Flybe on the Newquay to Gatwick route. This route was the most popular of Air Southwest's routes but Flybe persistently operated its aeroplanes over that route at very low fares. The effect of this was to force Air Southwest to offer similar fares or come off the route.

Air Southwest took Flybe to court in 2010 alleging unfair trading but lost and as there was no possibility of charging a realistic fare (which would still have been cheaper than the train), the route to Gatwick from Plymouth via Newquay by Air Southwest was closed.

Another nail in the coffin was hammered in by the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and UK National Air Traffic Services (NATS). In early 2009 the UK airspace rules were aligned with those in Europe. Plymouth (and Newquay) is outside of what is known as "controlled airspace". Both airports have Air Traffic Control (ATC) but this is only for aircraft taking off and landing at the airports. There is no ATC for aircraft flying into and out of the South West, west of a line from Exeter to Bristol.

Until 2009, the UK had rules that provided a degree of ATC in areas outside of controlled airspace, but under the European rules this was no longer permitted and as such, discontinued.

The CAA was concerned about the safety of aircraft carrying passengers flying outside of controlled airspace, and demanded that all airlines flying in this airspace carried out a safety risk assessment concerning the probability of a mid-air collision.

Air Southwest carried out this risk assessment and determined that the risk was unacceptably high during times when Plymouth Military radar (run by the Royal Navy and which provided an ATC radar service to Plymouth airport) was closed. Newquay, on the other hand was less affected as it had its own radar which operated all the time the airport was open.

The owner of Plymouth Airport, Sutton Harbour Group, was asked by Air Southwest (which it also owned at that time) to put in a radar service at Plymouth. The most cost effective way of achieving this would have been to have paid the Royal Navy to provide radar information from the radar set at Wembury into the ATC tower at Plymouth. At the same time Air Southwest asked the CAA and NATS to establish controlled airspace in the form of an air corridor from Exeter to Plymouth and on to Newquay. This was refused.

Air Southwest then asked that special procedures should be applied to aircraft flying near Plymouth, but this was also refused. Air Southwest then asked for a note to be put on air navigation charts warning other pilots of the possibility of encountering their aircraft near Plymouth, but even this simple safety measure was also refused.

Having exhausted every avenue through the CAA and NATS, it was left to Sutton Harbour to make a decision and spend a relatively small amount of money on the radar link to Wembury. This too was finally refused last year, despite the sale of a large portion of the airport by Sutton Harbour, for housing development.

Throughout 2010 Air Southwest (and the airport) was starved of investment by the owners. The airline had plans for a sixth aeroplane, new routes (the London City route was one) and to bring the maintenance of the aeroplanes into Air Southwest (it had previously been contracted to British International at Plymouth). All these were abandoned by Sutton Harbour Group.

Eventually, Air Southwest was put up for sale and was finally "given away" to Eastern Airlines in December 2010. Eastern sold the three Dash-8 aeroplanes that Air Southwest owned outright, to an aeroplane leasing company and then leased them back. Two of these were subsequently returned to the lease company, leaving just three. One of these was also planned to be returned later in 2011. It seemed to me that Eastern had no intention of continuing the air service into Plymouth and Newquay, but instead effectively based the aeroplanes at Aberdeen to service their oil company contracts. Redundancies followed.

Coupled to this, Sutton Harbour Group had rather unwisely announced that the airport would close in December. All this did was to encourage the airport staff to look for other work. As most of them were highly qualified ATC, fire and security staff, they left in droves. This effectively has reduced the airport manning to a level that is unacceptable for passenger flights out of Plymouth.

Both Sutton Harbour Group and Eastern Airways have been aware that the RN radar unit shuts down for the whole of August. It has done so every year for donkey's years. But with the airspace rule change, the adverse safety risk assessment and the refusal of the authorities and Sutton Harbour Group to do anything about the situation, suspension of the flights in and out of Plymouth throughout August was inevitable.

This will now hasten the demise of the airport. Likewise, the loss of income (albeit much reduced by route closures and insufficient aeroplanes) to Air Southwest, has given Eastern the excuse to pull out of the South West altogether.

Thanks for that woody.

In the interests of making sure there's no copyright infringement, please could you credit the source and provide a link, and then having done so perhaps cut down the text reproduced here to a couple of introductory paragraphs? Thanks.

I suspect that Air Southwest are quite happy that their side of the story has been given wider publicity & tgat copyright worrues in this instance are unwaranted

I agree that Air South West are probably happy with the story getting wider publicity.   I'm not so sure that the "local morning newspaper" that provided the journalist work behind the presentation of the text ( and is the copyright holder ) would be.  That's where the copyright concerns are.

The information was taken from the following link http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/198697-air-southwest-48.html  "The PPRuNe Forums (The Professional Pilots Rumour Network)" although further digging shows it originated with the Western Morning News, The Plymouth (UK); August 1, 2011 at http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Insider-s-view-big-city-s-flying-days/story-13048726-detail/story.html although this link does not seem to work when I tried it.

Consultants back plan to close Plymouth City Airport
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Consultants-plan-close-Plymouth-City-Airport/story-13140909-detail/story.html Aviation experts Berkeley Hanover Consulting, which carried out the study, were unable to identify "an economic rationale" for the council to underwrite the commercial risks involved in keeping "any scale of airport operations".

Eastern appear to be flying at present under the Eastern name not ASW, Pirate FM travel news several times have reported eastern service from manchester to Newquay is delayed, and i've thought whos eastern, now i realise they are ASW.

A GROUP of passengers, businesses and aviation industry figures have united in a bid to save Plymouth City Airport.
Called VIABLE, the group holds its first meeting on Tuesday and has an open invitation for anyone to attend.
Its aim is to secure the airport for commercial passenger aviation, building a "present and viable plan" for its future.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/New-group-formed-bid-save-Plymouth-City-Airport/story-13439981-detail/story.html

So they're going to be buying seats on the flights regularly then?

could call it the Titfield thunderBIRD.

This latest article on the future(or not) of Plymouths airport may come as a surprise to those on this Great Western Forum who think that the world ends at Bristol or Exeter but given the complete lack of any real rail improvements both past present and most worryingly the future this far south west then it is hardly surprising there is a campaign going on to try to save Plymouths airport.Personally as a regular rail user and supporter in these parts I would like to see the railways west of Exeter improved to a level where air links are not necessary at all but lets be honest Devon and Cornwall main line is and will only ever be a pale shadow of those on the post electrified Great Western Main line and it is that reality that is only now sinking in particularly and ironically since the ^5bilion Great Western main line upgrade was announced.
 Quote from Christopher Irwin chairman of TravelWatch SouthWest in a Western morning news article  on Monday, October 03, 2011 "The Plymouth business community, already disadvantaged by the loss of its air services, struggles to retain a headline three-hour journey time to London. The term ^high speed^ is a misnomer for passengers from Penzance to London who spend the greater part of their journey on track where speeds are restricted to a maximum of 40-75mph despite their train being designed for 125mph running."
Anyway here is the link for what its worth.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/pound-5m-offer-table-save-city-airport/story-13480280-detail/story.html

But I think the bretheren of PLY need to prove the demand is there.

Personally, I don't think it is. Maybe for a faster train every other hour?....but if there's more than 10 for any one train, I doubt it very much.

Well, I don't know Plymouth very well at all, but I do know that it's the 16th largest city in England - bigger than places like Southampton, Derby and Reading, and that would suggest to me there is some kind of potential for extra custom if there were targeted linespeed improvements?  There is certainly scope for increased speeds between Reading and Cogload Junction, and NR are pushing heavily for investment from Bristol to Plymouth, mainly 125mph running from Bridgwater to Bristol, but I would expect there to be improvements west of Bridgwater as well.

You could quite easily see 15mins knocked off the current 3-hour journey time, but probably not much improvement until ETRMS is introduced (along with new trains), i.e. 15 or so years away, so you can see where 'woody's' frustrations come from.

Oh, I don't doubt there's large demand fir faster services across the SW region, all the way to Bristol certainly - but thise that want to go the full length of the Berks & Hants are likely to be sub 10 a service, IMHO

Firstly, it's not about the size of the city in terms of population within the boundaries.  Reading Borough, for example, has c150K, less than that of Plymouth, but its suburbs, which fall within other authorities, push that figure towards 250K. As such, it is somewhat misleading to quote Plymouth as the x largest city, within this context.

Secondly, there has to be a business case for any transport services, unless very heavily subsidised.  Plymouth simply does not have enough in its favour to retain an airport, or for that matter, to benefit from vastly improved rail provision .  The City is at best, moribund.

Thirdly, the airport is outdated, hampered by a short runway and unable to beat off competition from Exeter and Newquay.

RIP Roborough.

Agreed.
It's not a question of size of city, or of the area - its simply the *demand*. Of course everyone would be on it if it was a time traveller, but it isn't - and very few want to spend 5+ hours a day travelling....

You can't have a service *just in case* people might use it, regardless of how important you as a City might feel.

Point taken, though I did make mention in the same sentance that I didn't know the city in question very well.  I agree that population figures can always be open to misinterpretation, and only form part of the argument for better rail services.  I also agree that a business case must exist for most rail services, especially long distance ones.

If you'll excuse me for quoting more statistics though, your Reading Borough figure presumably includes places like Wokingham which, for example, already have well established stations in themselves.  Indeed Wokingham station, at over 2 million entries and exits a year, is only fractionally below the figure for Plymouth, which, despite being the only large station in the immediate area serving such a large population, is only the 170th busiest in the UK.  That would suggest to me that there's much more potential there, importantly not just for long distance services to London, but other local and regional routes as well.  Sadly, the way the railway industry is currently set-up, it doesn't encourage any risk taking, so there's unlikely to be any wholesale changes.

But at least 50% of the Reading population will travel on the train. What population of PLY will?

I used Reading as an example because some of its immediate suburbs, Woodley, Lower Early, (some distance from Early S.R.) Shinfield and Spencers Wood fall within Wokingham, even though Reading is nearer.  To the west, Calcot and parts of Tilehurst fall within West Berks, despite being over 13 miles from Newbury, but within 4 miles of Reading station.  The figures for 'Greater' Reading's population do not include Wokingham Town or any of the satellite 'towns' such as Pangbourne.

For more info see http://www.lovemytown.co.uk/Populations/index.htm

As I said, population doesn't come into it really.

If half of a town of 10,000 wantesd to commute, you could demand a non-stop service, but if only 250 of a city of 250,000 wanted to commute, you couldn't - regardless of distance.

It's purely demand-driven.

I'm not sure you could upgrade that much though, there are quite a few curves on the route and realignments would be quite expensive.  The business case would also likely be quite poor if only one train per hour is going to benefit.

Post electrification with say 125mph running from Bridgwater to Bristol would it not make sense some time in the future to send Penzance/Plymouth /Paddington Berks and Hants services via Bristol by extending say one hourly Bristol/Paddington limited stop hourly service instead.Also Bristol to Plymouth is used by hourly XC services so further improving the business case for further investment along that corridor.Personally I think time will show that Brunel got it right originally when he build the Great Western main line from Paddington to Bristol then eventually on to Exeter and Plymouth.

Just to set matters straight Reading Borough has as you say c150k plus its suburbs outside its boundaries.Plymouth by the same measure has c250k within its city boundaries but closer to c400k with its satelite towns,Saltash,Torpoint etc.Of course the big difference is that Reading is only 36 miles from Paddington and is well within the wider densely populated network area whereas Plymouths blessing and problem is that it is a relatively large but isolated urban area 225 miles from Paddington situated in the largely remote and rural far south west.The easy way to understand it is that on one hand there is the traditional chocolate box image of Devon and Cornwall and then there is the urban Plymouth city and its environs.

You still haven't addressed my point about it not being population size but actual demand for the services.

That was the point I was trying to make was that its not just population size that determines rail demand to London but in Plymouths case geographical position relative to London(the countries economic,financial and cultural capital) when compared to say Reading.Clearly it is much easier and practical to commute to and from Reading to London(36 miles) than from Plymouth(225miles) so no wonder rail demand from Reading is around 12 million passengers annually compared to Plymouths 2 million.Add to that the very slow and unreliable rail service west of Newton Abbot and there is even less incentive to use the railways when the alternative trunk road system in Devon and Cornwall(A30/A38/M5) is generally much faster.(raising speed limits on motorways wont help the situation neither).If you offer a 20th century product in the 21st century running on what is in essence 19th century infrastructure in the far south west then that is not going to help matters either.Put simply it is widely recognised that Plymouths issue is one of connectivety.

Unless you got the journey down to a 2 hour trip (4 hour roundtrip) I refuse to believe that the demand would be any higher than it is now. It is simply too far....

Funny enough Chris I have to agree with your statement "It is simply too far....".Sadly it boils down to that fact that Plymouth is now simply too far from London in the 21st century compared to Englands other cities.The only reason that a city of c250k came to exist this far southwest is because of the historic need to support the then worlds largest navy on the the back of Empire.That era has now passed sadly for Plymouth economy and given modern transport realities no inward investor is now going to seriously look any further west than Exeter eastwards are they so logically that is where Network rail is going to do most if not all its infrastructure improvemets.Plymouth RIP

Unfortunatyely, I can't disagrewe with you. RIP indeed.

  Reading is a major employment centre in its own right. More folk commute in than out.  It is also a nodal point on the network.

That at well of course

I'm sorry, I don't believe more commute in than out! Just watch the barriers....(not including students in of course)

It's an oft-quoted fact that Reading attracts as many commuters in as it does out.  This from the Dft website would appear to confirm that fact (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/railways/londonareatravelsurveynation1809. (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/railways/londonareatravelsurveynation1809.)):

"Reading has as many inbound commuters as outbound and therefore a significant number of these passengers will be people coming from workplaces in the Town Centre making their way to the station to go home."

I have been on some HSTs starting from Plymouth that only have a handful of passengers until Newton Abbot.  When the train has arrived at Newton Abbot though I have seen quite a few people get on.  The question here is why so few people would use the train from Plymouth when Newton Abbot is only 40 minutes up the line and is quite small in size compared to Plymouth.

Perhaps people have discovered as I have that if you live in say Plymouths Eastern suburbs,Plympton and Plymstock in particular but not exclusively its much quicker to railhead from Newton Abbot by driving up the A38 Devon Expressway,about 30 minutes door to door,than to drive westwards into central Plymouth on jammed roads with commute times up to 45 minutes then a further 40 minutes rail journey time back eastwards in the direction of Newton Abbot.Add to that line speeds from the top of Hemerden Bank(Plympton) all the way to Newton Abbot are only 55/60mph while motorway speeds are the norm on the parrallel A38(Proposed to be raised to 80mph).
  Then there are the obvious Torbay commuters many of whom would naturally railhead at Newton Abbot.

Since when has the A38 been a motorway?  I think the proposal only includes motorways, not all purpose trunk roads.

Indeed, there's even a bend on the A38(T) near Exeter that can't safely be taken at 70 mph.

I can assure you that most traffic moves generally at motorway speeds 70/80mph on the A38 Devon Expresway and its some 7 miles shorter than rail between Plymouth and Exeter despite a few very gentle bends(the exception being at Halden hill Northbound 50mph) but thats all.It certainly far less bendy than the rail route between Plymouth and Exeter.Indeed just out of interest I recently had the opportunity to time how long it took to drive at 70mph down the M5/A38 from alongside Tiverton Parkway station to Plymouth(Marsh Mills) and it took just 50 minutes compared to about 1hour 20 minutes on the train.Even at 70mph other vehicles were flying by me all the way to Plymouth.I would like to point out that I mostly use the train and very rarely drive long distances these days.Unfortunately not enough of Plymouths population share my passion for railways these days given the transport realities in South Devon.

At the end of the day though it seems that there just isn't much travel demand from Plymouth in general.  On the roads Exeter justifies a motorway with three lanes in each direction but west of Exeter it's just a dual carriageway and a motorway is not justified as the A38(T) copes well with the traffic.

Just for interest here is Dft press release about the Governments proposed 80MPH motorway speed limit
http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-2011100
Interestingly at the bottom it reads "We are also considering the case related to increasing the speed limit on other high standard, near-motorway dual carriageways".Not sure if the A38 Devon Expressway would meet thet standard or not.

Hmm. From my personal experience of driving down that way, I'd be inclined to agree with both of those points. C.  ::)

It should also be noted that Exeter and Plymouth are also two of the largest cities that do not have a direct dual carriageway link to London.

A303 - doesn't go down to Exeter?

Some of it is dual carriageway but there are still significant sections where the road is little more than a country lane and you can end up stuck behind a truck for some time.  At one point there is even a bend with a 20 mph advisory speed limit.  Due to these poor quality sections, quite a few people use the M5 and M4 to get to London even though it's the long way round.

A303 doesn't make it to exeter. Becomes,the a30 at some point. It is also an awful single carriageway at the west end. From exeter best route to the 303 is m5 to taunting j25or 26, forgotten which at the moment, and across to the 303 from there. This cuts out most of the single carriageway winding bits as well

Or just forget the A303 completely and use the M5 and M4.

 Slightly off topic, but considering Newton Abbot is a well-used busy, medium sized station.

 So why is the level of investment, compared with Exeter/Plymouth so small ?

PLYMOUTH'S airport could become a ^25-^30million "world class international gateway" under plans being worked on by a group of businesspeople campaigning to save it.
The Viable group has today unveiled a vision for the Derriford site which would see the runway extended, a new terminal built and land turned over for lucrative commercial use.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Vision-new-30million-airport-Plymouth-unveiled/story-14218392-detail/story.html?persist=true&afterReg=Y&logout=true&
Personally I dont think the "Vision" stands a hope in hell of getting of the ground.

Indeed: it all seems rather pie in the sky, doesn't it?  ::)

Perhaps create London's new hub airport there to replace Heathrow and construct a new high speed rail link to Gatwick via London.

 ;D

Let's see the people behind these ideas put up the ^30 million cash first plus the continuing millions required to subsidise running operations into the future as currently there would be very few airlines wishing to risk money on services.

Imagine how many improvements could be made on the line from Plymouth to Exeter for 30 mil.... I wonder what speed the line from Plymouth to Exeter could be pushed upto with investment shorter journey times to London and the north

Even ^30million given the cost of even modest rail improvements these days would not make much difference.The fact is that Brunels "atmosperic caper" left us with a permanently handicapped rail route between Exeter and Plymouth that is virtually unimprovable line speed/journey time wise and therein lies the problem.Had the 1937 Great Western scheme for a dawlish avoiding line involving quadruple tracking from Exminster to Newton Abbot with a 2 mile tunnel through the Halden Hills been completed in 1941 as planned and not been stopped in its tracks by the outbreak of the Second World War,together with a new route that was also surveyed at the time onward from Newton Abbot,bypassing Dainton and Rattery banks to rejoin the existing route near Marley tunnel and all engineered to a minimum 1 mile radius for speed things would have been much different now.But we are where we are.Probably the only way you could speed things up now would be a combination of electrification and tilting trains and thats not any agenda I have heard of yet.So you can see why there are moves to try to reinstate air links from Plymouth whether practical or not."Viable" claim to have access to private capital whereas the railways infrastructure wise rely heavily on the public purse so the chances of making any significant improvements to line speeds this far away from the Great Western main line are virtually Ziltch.I use the First Great Western HSTs in Devon Daily.The standard rail journey from Exeter to Plymouth is about 1 hour and to make matters worse puntuality between Penzance/Plymouth/Exeter is an absolute joke with frequent delays and regularly extended journey times beyond an hour.That unfortunately is the current reality of rail travel West of Exeter and is no doubt driving the "Viable" vision.In ideal world I wish I could fast rewind to 1937 and get it sorted but thats not going to happen is it.

Perhaps killing Hitler would need to be the first task if travelling back to 1937!

What paradoxes that may cause I know not. Conversely, maybe if Germany had won WWII, Teutonic efficiency would've seen GWRs original plan brought to fruition.  :P ;) ;D

spoilers

Well the end of runway radar installation warning lights were switched off yesterday so..............

As a former resident who lived (directly under the flight path) in the top left hand corner of the map in the OP, I can tell you that nobody who lives around the airport will want it back :-X

In a letter to the Plymouth Evening Herald today RAOUL WITHERALL who is the chair of "Viable" a group campaigning for the re-opening of Plymouth City Airport which now has very strong local support claims that and I quote from the letter "The good news is we now have a new Plymouth-based private operator ready to reopen the airport and run it profitably in the private sector to see airlinks restored."It seems that the airport campaign is really getting its act together now.
Here is the link to that letter.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/End-defeatism/story-15789832-detail/story.html

The slow rail route west of Exeter and no motorway is always sighted locally as the reason why Plymouth needs an airport and it is not being helped by the Government totally ignoring this part of the Great Western franchise.Here is a typical letter to the local paper and it is a very widely held view in Plymouth now.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Airport-s-loss-hampers-development/story-15702854-detail/story.html

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Airport-s-loss-hampers-development/story-15702854-detail/story.html

Where was this untapped market for air passengers when ASW were trying to break even?

The lease holder of the airport Sutton Harbour Holdings was a property development company with no experience at all of operating an airline and it soon showed particularly as their property development arm sank into big financial problems.They made sure that when they took on the lease of the airport that it contained an "armagedon clause" that if it became unviable they (a property development company) could close it down.Not surprisingly there then followed what all can I say were some "beeching style" tactics to help the process on its way,gradual withdrawal of routes and flights at awkward times.Say no more nod nod wink wink everyone in Plymouth at least knew what was going on before closure.Sutton harbour Holdings are of course now desperately trying to get the City council to allow them to redevelop the whole airport site but the city council has had to bow to the massive weight of local opinion on the matter and has now said that the airport land is still designated for airport use in the local land plan.Very often in life you dont value something until you loose it and lets face it we all know that investment wise in the 21st century the Great Western franchise is essentially the Paddington/Bristol/South Wales axis now while the far south west particularly west of Exeter is largely ignored in the big scheme of things.So it surely cannot come as a total surprise now that someone wants make a go of the airport.

PLYMOUTH Airport could start operating again almost immediately if the lease can be sorted out, says the company campaigning to reopen it.

Raoul Witherall, a director of Viable, met with the UK's aviation regulator, the CAA, at its Gatwick offices last week.

He said the purpose of the meeting was to introduce Viable's proposals to reopen and operate the airport.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Flights-possible-lease-sorted/story-15857530-detail/story.html

As an occasional hobby pilot, I'm all for airfields staying open. The runway is, IIRC, much shorter than Exeter and Newquay, but certainly fine for the turboprops.

I understand their business model involves a 40 metre runway extension to allow the use of the smaller jets.

Still only 1200m, not enough for a Gulfstream or Lear 35. Might manage a Cessna Citation, though.

Well I certainly don't know of any support for reopening from the residents around the airport (I'll declare an interest as I'm one of them ::)). Since flying stopped its been lovely and quite!  Plymouth has a pretty good train service compared with some places and I don't complain about it despite having been a regular user for the past 26 years. Many years ago I used to make an odd flight or two if going overseas from Heathrow but on a few occasions can remember having to wait up to four hours for the onward connection. So who says the train is slower :P.  Personally I don't see how the 'new' business model will pay as most of the former flights used to only be 50% full at the best of times.

Oh and by the way, try making a comparison between the current FGW Plymouth timetable and that of BR of some 40 years ago in the early 1970s and you will really see how the train service has improved.

So what if it does re-open, won't effect the railway really, may take away about 1% of the business which i'm sure FGW can cope with!

Would be very interested to know how many former air users transferred to FGW/XC and how many took to the car/use Exeter Airport etc... Anyone in the know?

Even if all seven of the former air users had switched to rail or road, I doubt anyone would have noticed the difference. There was a reason the air service folded...

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-18157837):

According to the Plymouth Evening Herald "Viable" the group that wants to reopen Plymouth's closed down airport says its plans are still "very much alive and gaining momentum" and it is in talks with backers who could bankroll a rejuvenated airstrip.

Raoul Witherall, chairman of the Viable group, said it was working on four separate funding projects with "various backers".

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Airport-campaigners-talks/story-16460125-detail/story.html

THE group set up to revive Plymouth's airport has told the council it wants to buy the site so it can reopen it.

Viable also said it wants to contribute to the building of a berth at Millbay for luxury cruise liners.

   
The group, now a company, has written to council leader Tudor Evans with an expression of interest in acquiring the freehold from the council.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Group-tells-Plymouth-City-Council-wants-buy/story-16836661-detail/story.html

Funny how Newquay Airport's fortunes have dived since it started to levy its redevelopment tax on passengers. The model for regional airports is a strange one, and counter-intuitive. The airport will often identify a route that it wants to develop, and will ask airlines to fly it. Sometimes, they will subsidise it, or offer sweeteners such as privileged or exclusive access, and cheap landing and handling fees. If the airport falls out with the airline, then the airline only has to pack its little things for measuring hand baggage and its tacky promotional banners into the last of its planes, and fly them to another regional airport nearby. The girls on the check-in desks are employed by the airport's handling agents, and can send the uniforms back by post, on their way to the Jobcentre. Ryanair pulled one of its two daily flights from "London" Stansted to Newquay after the latter refused to renegotiate its development tax for its honoured guest.

With the tragic demise of Plymouth Airport, Newquay's only rival in Cornwall now is Lands End. Its biggest threat is a better railway service from London. But a decent service would ruin the dreams of the politician, anxious to holiday at home to please the voters, but keen to go somewhere that is a struggle to get to, to persuade the kids they are abroad. They can take them from first class to the buffet, and point towards steeerage, telling them that if they don't do magna cum laudae at Eton, they will have to travel to their holiday with that foul-smelling tattooed strange and, most importantly, standing for 200 miles clientele.  In any case, the whole county will soon be covered in wind turbines, and will look like rural Wales, or even worse, Scotland. We can then all go back to Benidorm, and I can buy a ^300,000 one-bedroom cottage in Rock for ^50K and a Fisherman's Friends' CD, and rent it out to an unemployed airport worker and his wife and 11 children for whatever the maximum housing benefit is these days, plus ^50 a month to compensate for the lack of holiday traffic. We're all in this together; us, and the millionaires in the cabinet.

Politics, eh? Dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

Plan to save Plymouth City Airport is revealed.
THE group aiming to revive Plymouth's airport has revealed a rival masterplan which sees the city connected to the world within a decade.

The Viable company, which last week told Plymouth City Council it wants to buy the freehold of the site, says it has the financial backing and intends to have flights to Britain and western Europe within two years, and a plan to create a hub with worldwide reach in five to 10 years.

Inevitable and sadly necessary given the lack of investment in rail in this part of the world.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Plan-save-Plymouth-City-Airport-revealed/story-16871280-detail/story.html



Edit note: Link corrected. CfN.

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-20616478):

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-20946894):

Bristol airport recently introduced a similar scheme. It is purely a money making scheme as the short stay car park was so extortionate you wouldn't want to overstay the 30 minutes free you used to get!!

Its still 1/3 of the drop off price at Bournemouth

Flybe claims there could be "little future for Newquay Airport" after announcing the end of its flights to London Gatwick from March 2014.

The company sold its slots at the London airport to Easyjet for ^20m, blaming an increase in airport charges.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-22638983

The Flybe flights to NQY from LGW won't end until the end of the airline world's winter 2013/14 season, which is at the end of March 2014.

These flights are however the main route out of NQY, and are mainly operated with Flybe's 78-seater Q400 turboprop aircraft.

Easyjet are starting flights into NQY for the first time during the coming Summer season, from LPL (Liverpool) and SEN (Southend), but whether they will use some of the slots they've bought at LGW to continue a NQY route from there, we will have to wait and see.

Whether they do or not, I think it unlikely they will operate with the frequency (up to 3 times daily) that Flybe do on the route. This is for the simple reason that Easyjet's smallest aircraft are 156-seater Airbus 319's, and they will only operate flights that they can fill with enough passengers to make money.

NQY is also a very seasonal airport - the only scheduled routes that operated through last winter were the Flybe LGW service (with reduced frequency at times), a Flybe service from Manchester (which operates only about 4 times a week in winter) and the Skybus "lifeline" services to the Scilly Isles (about 3 of these a day in winter). Traffic has dropped every year for the last 5 years, but the airport are saying it will start to recover this year.

Challenging times ahead I think.

I see little long term future for either Plymouth or Newquay airport.
Air transport uses a great deal of increasingly expensive oil fuel, the long term trend of oil prices will be ever upward as supplies deplete.
If the airports were not viable when oil was cheap, are they likely to be more viable at higher oil prices?

Domestic air transport is increasingly being recognised as one of the most polluting transport modes with many seeking to minimise it for enviromental reasons.

Airports take up a lot of land and blight a lot more due to noise, this land is increasingly valuable for housing and other purposes.

The rail service to Plymouth, though it could be improved, is not that bad for leisure or business travel.
I doubt that daily commuting from Plymouth to London will ever be viable.
Some improvement in line speeds is no doubt possible, though as others post the oportunities are limited due to the tight curves and many inclines.

As regards rolling stock, I cant forsee any improvements over HSTs. The best that we can hope for is that HSTs are kept for as long as possible, and that the eventual downgrade to DMUs is not too large a backward step.

Several trains a day still have a full restaurant, wont get that on an aircraft !

Oh dear broadgage you really are out of touch aren't you,where do you live close to the M4/M5/Great Western main line corridor by the sound of it.Thats not the message Patrick McLoughlin, the Transport Secretary took back with him after a recent visit to Plymouth after meeting local business and political leaders. Plymouth is widely regarded now as the worst connected city in Britain particularly since it lost its airport.As for your statement "The rail service to Plymouth, though it could be improved, is not that bad for leisure or business travel." well  that may be true down as far as Exeter but certainly not for Plymouth and Cornwall beyond sadly.The transport minister simply thrugged his shoulders when asked about improving Plymouths dire rail link which says it all I think.Its not just the motorway that stops at Exeter but also fast direct main line rail infrastructure.The Exeter to Plymouth/Penzance "branch line"is little better line speed wise than the Exeter/Barnstaple branch line and that is not going to change according to the transport minister.It is quite clear that the far south west is in reality no longer investment wise part of the financially troubled First Great Western franchise which is why it is now effectively being "sacrificed" by both the Dft and First Group who have their own wider financial problems.Plymouth is now effectively stuck on a branch line from Exeter and therefore has little choice but to at least try to reopen its airport for some key business links.West of Exeter the rail system is now really only fit for the leisure market in the 21st century.!

I live in London, but travel regularly to Taunton, Exeter, and Plymouth.
Faster trains would be nice, but the present times to those destinations are not bad IMHO.
I doubt that daily commuting between London and Plymouth is feasible at present or at reasonably forseeable journey times.
Business travel for meetings etc is entire doable.
I doubt that daily commuting by air between London and Plymouth would be viable due to the cost.
I doubt that many leisure travelers would fly to Plymouth, so that leaves business travel for meetings etc, I doubt that the demand for such would support an air service.

The air service ceased for lack of demand, and I doubt that demand will increase when oil prices increase, as they assuredly will.

I'm Plymouth based and frequently travel into central London on business. I never used the plane (when we had one!) as the time to check in, fly, & then get into c london was little different than the train. On return, one might as well go to PAD to get on a train straight home, than VIC to go to LGW, then wait....... You get my drift!
 Also Plymouth airport was very weather affected, and hence more unreliable. 


NB: LGW = Gatwick

If Plymouth were to re-open, where would planes fly to? Can't see any airline economically using a slot at a London airport from the likes of Plymouth.

Gatwick would have them if they cut a deal with other airlines for connecting flights. Heathrow wouldn't. The most likely scenario would be a circular route eg Plymouth - Jersey - Guernsey - Gatwick - Manchester - Isle of Man - Liverpool - Bristol - Plymouth using smaller turboprops, and with flexibility to miss out airports if no-one wanted to go there. Other options could be to link with small airports, such as Oxford, Cambridge, Gloucestershire, Blackpool or Carlisle, using one as a hub to get to the others.

Gatwick will have them but it doesn't want them, because they no longer fit in with the business model. LGW's airfield/passenger charges are pitched to favour operators with A32X/B737 sized aircraft.

Unfortunately the "milk run" style of flying doesn't really work here like it does in vaster places like Norway with Wideroe, or in Canada. Despite what people say, we live in a well connected part of the world and people will not tolerate sitting on a Dash 8 or ATR for hours just to get from A to B via X, Y & Z.

From the BBC (http://):

This is still rumbling on, and NQY are still saying (in answer to questions on their Facebook page) that they are still hoping to secure an operator to fly daily from "a London Airport" from the end of March, and that "negotiations continue".

Realistically, that's going to be either Luton or Stansted, as we know it won't be Heathrow, Gatwick or I suspect London City either.

Agreed. I suspect easyPeasy used Southend for their operational convenience only.

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-24592688):

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-25177975)

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-25689238):

Imagine the situation at Dawlish will be very good news for the Newquay-Gatwick air link. Not only will it boost loadings but it will surely enhance their chances of a subsidy

Flybe have announced three additional services between Newquay and Gatwick.

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Flybe-vows-advantage-Dawlish-rail-line-disruption/story-20583938-detail/story.html

The Newquay - Gatwick air link has secured a four year Government subsidy, as per those awarded to remote areas of Wales and Scotland:

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/council-news-room/media-releases/news-from-2013/news-from-december-2013/welcome-for-flybe-announcement-on-newquay-to-gatwick-air-service/?page=35906

New operator to commence in October, unless Flybe secure the contract

Sorry, this link:

http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/news/cornwall_news/11091618.Taxpayer_to_back_Newquay_to_Gatwick_air_link_for_next_four_years/?ref=var_0

Flybe have been confirmed to have won slots at London City airport.
It is understood by local media there will be 3 return flights daily between London City and Newquay effective September.

(Apologies unable to copy source as my IPad is not cooperating, source of info is airport coordination ltd, and also the Cornish Guardian)

No problem, richwarwicker!  ;)

From the Cornish Guardian (http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/Flybe-airline-serves-Newquay-Airport-wins-slots/story-20878861-detail/story.html):

From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-33256912):