Great Western Coffee Shop

Names, dates, references omitted to protect the innocent. In response to feedback sent to FGW customer services via the on-website form.
Smoke or mirrors? :-)

Very impressed with the response.

Interesting that the lighting levels raised their ugly head again. Probably the worst thing that the early 150 refresh did.

Chances of getting a 'lights off' coach = none!

as far as i am aware a lights off carriage would not be allowed for safety reasons,half lighting is the only option.
for example if a dmu has a lighting fault then the carriage has to be locked out until set can be swapped out for repairs.

Really? I have travelled with Central Trains twice in an unlighted 150 carriage.

The journey involved a tunnel (and the rest of the journey I did not take involved an even longer one!).

Or was that just Central Trains?!

Speaking as a l*w**r, I think if you were in an unlit carriage and were attacked/injured yourself I'd be taking the TOC to the cleaners.

I travelled on a two car ATW to Merthyr a few months ago.  Car 2 engine wouldn't run and there were no lights in it either.  I suggested to the guard/conductor/train manager that he ought to have everyone in the lit car since it was getting dark and the hazards were obvious.  He agreed and said he was going to do that at the next station anyway to comply with orders.

Was a slow trip up to Merthyr.

I think your Central person was off message.

Really no chance of a lights off carriage?
NXEA (Or when they were back in the One days) always used to have a lights off coach A. I remember frequently traveling from Ipswich to London around the 2300 express with Coach A being dark and it was generally socially accepted that stopping customers boarding after Ipswich didn't bother the express customers trying to get some kip.
On the crime side of things: That train stopped at Stratford and I don't ever remember feeling unsafe. I don't think Kemble or Tiverton Parkway are more dangerous than Stratford.

Obviously local trains are a different matter, You couldn't sleep on a 142 if you wanted to. I'm just refering to HSTs, properly managed with CCTV, with quiet coaches being enforced e.g. disruptive groups of people being kept away (Which Virgin Trains can do on a busy Saturday afternoon). It's not so much a safety issue as a common sense issue.

P.S. Airplanes have dark cabins sometimes on night flights. Ferries for that matter also sometimes have dark lounges on night crossings. Night-trains are also dark.... National Express is dark, much more dangerous on a rocky bus stopping at all kinds of dodgy service stations surely??
Whats wrong with fgw re-introducing some trendy aisle lighting and some reading lights??

Sorry, I don't see this as such a "far fetched" idea.

First, you can travel every night (except Saturday) IN THE TOTAL DARK on FGW Services, just book a Sleeper Berth and you Can have the Lights ON or OFF (there is a night light option).

Second, the law on lighting is very strange, IF the council have installed street lighting and you fall over a trip Hazard on council land during the night then you can sue the council, however if Street Lighting isn't provided then it's very difficult to sue as the person at fault is Yourself.

Of course what is required when coach lighting fails is for someone from HMRI to spell out what is required and allowed, but of course thats not their job.

Back in the late 1980's some Bright Spark laid down that Trains couldn't stop at Stations where Lighting wasn't provided, this only EVER applied to the then WESTERN region.
Note: There are NO recorded instances of Injury caused at Unlit stations by the lack of lighting.

Of course Trains ARE Permitted to stop at Stations where lighting is provided EVEN WHEN the platform Lighting has Failed, this is laid out in Railway Group Standards.

I mean just what would happen if a Train ran into a Pitch Black Terminus Station? Train got to carry on?

And your method of working for locking one coach out of use on a 14x unit is..... ;) ;)

... simple: use the staff!  ::) ;D

Good for the guard!

Nobody died, people used their common sense and did not walk about when in the tunnel!

(a) I hate the sueing culture which has developed in this country (from the US) - I would take responsability for my actions, and accept that it was an accident.

That is an honest answer.

Because the chances of that happening are miniscule. It is <20 seconds in the dark. I am sat down. If I was walking/stood up, I would stand still. It's called common sense.

As for managing to twist my leg etc. I am just as more likely to do that when stepping off the train at Platform 1 at WOF (huge gap)! That puts the problem of a light into perspective.

And it has only happened once. I am sure the guard reported it to Tyelsey asap. Thanks to the guard's good sense the service was not delayed!

OK, here's a scenario.  Packed train, 3 car hybrid 158, well past Llanwern, bound for the Severn Tunnel and beyond.  Lights fail in the two front coaches and the black hole approaching at lots of miles per hour.  As a guard, do you,

A) Call Control, get the train stopped at STJ? (No time for that). 

B) Evacuate all pax in the front coaches into the trailing coach?  (No room and a refreshment trolley blocking the way half way up the middle coach)

C) Clear the front coach and proceed through the tunnel with your Bardic shining on the ceiling of still populated but quite dark  coach 2?  (Works quite well but for the student from Treforest making bird shapes with his hands in front of your beam).


Answers on a postcard etc etc.


(I did C when it happened to me a few days ago.) ;)  Now that I have admitted to infringing the rules, I will probably be posted to Sidmouth as a platform supervisor.

How about getting the Cyalume lightsticks out of the holders at the end of the carriages?

Paul

I've known a 150+153 to run from Bristol down to Weymouth with the lights out in the middle coach. Wasn't to dark outside though so that why I assume it was allowed to continue ;D

Here is what i would have done,...buzzed Driver got him to stop train at N70, Evacuated both coaches. then proceeded through tunnel...and if passengers failed to cooperate the train would stay exactly where it was. the severn tunnel is a very hostile horrible place to fail in as it is, and without any saloon lighting you are just asking for trouble

I do not think that! A packed 158 with 2 coaches out going through thr Severn Tunnel is an ENTIRELY different kettle of fish! :o

In that case, I agree that some sort of action should be taken. It's called Common sense.

As an impartial observer, I'd tend to support dog box in his text book answer, as being the 'correct' thing to do.


On the other hand, if I'd been in that particular situation, I'd have been tempted to do the same - but I would also have ensured that my Bardic connected heartily with at least one of that Treforest student's ears, as I progressed through the gloomy carriage ...

 ;) :D ;D

Whilst I've thoroughly enjoyed the few trips over the years I've had in the dark in an unilluminated coach, I think 2 out of 3 out through the ST in a packed train is probably one instance when Elf and Safety is compromised by carrying on.  

Exactly my point. H&S should adapted to fit the circumstances. It is needed in this case. It was not needed in my case.

???

Umm.... sorry you've lost me!

I have done no such exam, but we are talking about <20 secs of darkness for 1 unlighted carriage once in my experiences! I really don't think that a full evacuation was required...

Train crew gave set down rules to follow, thats what flamingo means by rules exam. Basically the rules state that if lighting fails in a coach after darkness, or if the journey will pass through a tunnel( no matter how short) said coach should be evacuated.

With hindsight, I must own that this is the 'correct' and probably best solution.  However, as I was so close to the tunnel portal and faced with a herculean task of moving passengers, (I only just cleared the first coach in time), I acted as I judged best and most effective at the time.  That said, I fully appreciate the potential risks of failure inside the tunnel under such circumstances and if ever faced with the same situation, I will, (time permitting), follow dog box's suggestion.

As regards the total failure of lighting in one carriage of a train, evacuation seems a bit OTT for short tunnels in daylight, but perhaps justified in the case of a long one.
On DMUs I have often wondered why a few lights in each vehicle are not powered from the adjacent coach, this would almost eliminate total lighting failures.
Am I the only customer who allways has a torch with them, after dark, or when travelling?

As regards turning out the lights deliberatly in order that passengers may sleep, or see out of the window, I dont feel that turning out every light would be sensible.
The light level in one coach could be reduced to say 5% of that normally provided, this would still be ample for safe movement. (measured light level at table height in refreshed HST was 400 lux, 5% of this, at 20 lux would be ample for movement, and is still TEN times the light required for emergency lighting)

As regards the oft-repeated complaint that the general lighting is too bright throughout, I think that only the lights along one side of the coach should be used.
Customers could then sit to the left or the right of the gangway according to preference.

What would realistically happen if the train failed in a tunnel other than having an unpleasant wait in the dark to be rescued?

Probably nothing, but some might panic, and others might attempt to use matches or lighters as light sources with consequent risk of fire.
The cyalume lightsticks are a rather limited light source, but a lot better than nothing, especialy once the eyes are dark adapted. They are brighter than the cheapo no name lightsticks used in nightclubs etc.
Are these carried on all FGW trains ? or only on the HSTs?

there would always be one person who would have a panic attack ::)

Coach H (1st) lights went out last week on the 1730 ex Paddington as it approached Swindon. Result was a half hour delay as the crew cleared the coach and tried to fix the defect. Bit OTT if you ask me, and I did very politely point out to the crew that a 30 minute delay seemed excessive. They told me that some passengers refused to leave. I'd have been inclined to tell them that any accident that occurred whilst travelling in a coach against the instructions of the train crew was their own fault and carried on with no delay to the rest of the train.

about 3 weeks ago the 1800 Bath Spa - Taunton was full and standing upon arrival. with all the passengers waiting to go home the train was evidently not going to carry all the passengers. Eventually someone in charge decided to declassify Coach F so some Standard Class Passengers could sit down to all more passengers to stand in the vestibules...!

I happily moved to Coach G however, the three remaining businessmen in Coach F decided to be awkward and refused to move. Ensuring that the doors of vestibule sliding door in Coach G opened and closed for the remainder of the journey to Bristol Temple Meads >:( Where I wisely got off :)

There is a thread running on another forum http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=35893&page=3 regards lighting levels on FGW HSTs and there seems some confusion as to whether dim or bright is the official setting.Whenever I travel now on FGW in Devon and Cornwall now the lighting is always set to dim which I personally find ideal.So is dim the official setting now on FGW HSTs or is there not one.

Dim is the answer - however, the switch for each coach is in the public area and thus can be changed.

As ChrisB says, dim is the answer.  Too many complaints when they were refreshed especially at night - even the dim setting isn't very dim!  Occasionally there'll be sets or individual carriages on 'full beam' but not often.

I will always switch the lights to dim if they are on bright.
Dim is bright enough, bright is just too bright. The sooner they turn it into a T-key switch the better.

We have an old thread running with a slightly more detailed discussion of these issues, so in the interest of keeping everything neat and tidy I've merged them together!

They should be on dim yes. Whether or not it is written on paper that they must be is a different matter.

When the refresh sets first appeared there was an instruction that came out that when the sets were prepared on the depots that all lights were to be set on dim.

We were instructed that if we found any on high then we were to put them back to dim.

Will ask around next week to see if this has changed.

On two recent trips in HSTs I was interested to observe that full lighting was in use, contary to the usual recent practice of half lighting only.
In my view the use of full lighting is preferable in bright weather, reduced interior lighting in such circumstances presents a sad and gloomy appearence, whereas full lighting gives a bright and cheerful apprearence.

In dull weather, or during the hours of darkness, I would consider half lighting only to be better. Full lighting in such circumstances presents an excesive contrast between interior and exterior lighting and therby spoils the view.

It may seem counter-intuitive to provide more lighting in bright weather, and less in dull conditions, but it is in fact sensible.
As well as providing for safe movement and comfortable reading, interior lighting should, so far as posible, reduce the contrast between interior and exterior lighting levels.

It should also be noted that many platforms have only basic lighting after dark, an excessive level of light on the train can make alighting in the dark hazerdous since the contrast is too great and eyes can take a minute or more to adapt.

I assume the "dim" setting is alternate lights down the carriage ceiling being on. That being the case it must mean uneven wear on the lights if the tendency is not to use the bright setting. Unless of course there are two dim settings which swap which lights are used. Might also give a last chance if one set isn't working for some reason. Obviously this would not cope with a major electrical failure but might occasionally save the day.

I am a pensioner going into my mid-seventies. My optician has told me that as you get older your eyes need more light to see properly, especially when reading. It seems to me that whether the HSTs have dim or bright lighting settings in use, someone will not be happy. The better solution that is only usually available in first class is for individual light controls but, of course, you have to pay extra for that, usually.

Yes, the dim or half light setting only lights alternate lamps.
This does indeed lead to uneven wear, since on half light it is allways the same lamps that are lit and these get more use.
If full lighting is in use, it may be observed that the less used lamps are slightly brighter on account of the less use that they have had.

Was interested to see that the lighting had been altered on last nights train.
(18-03 from Paddington, 26/10/2011, coach F)

The previously used "daylight" lamps had been replaced with "warm white" still with only alternate lamps lit.
Do not know if this was throughout or only in the restaurant.
Trains in other platforms still had daylight lamps.

Although I like daylight flourescent lamps and use them at home, I accept that I am in a minority regarding this and I suspect that most customers will welcome this change to warm white lighting.

Does anyone know if this is just for the restaurant, or throughout.

All sets are being fitted as they come up for replacement.