Great Western Coffee Shop

Before you read the detail .... the current system with irregular trains stopping at Didcot and connections from Swindon (and beyond) to Oxford (and beyond) being hit and miss, causing delays of up to an hour for travellers on what are otherwise half hourly services where some miss the Didcot stop, looks like it could have been designed to discourage traffic from the West. I say "looks like" because I suspect other motives for the odd service pattern.

But the question has been asked "for a future direct service such as the one that was lost a couple of years ago, should a Didcot stop be included?"

First comment.  When I travelled up to Oxford last week from Melksham, nearly everyone who got off at Didcot from the London train walked across the platform to join a near-empty service coming up from Reading.  So the main flow into Oxford on that train was passengers from the west

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/viadidcot.jpg)
The train to Oxford arrives at Didcot

Second comment. It would add (I estimate) 10 to 12 minutes into the schedule of the West to Oxford (later to become Bristol / Portsmouth to Cambidge  ;) ) train to stop at Didcot.  For that extra time taken, extra opportunities provided would include a more reasonable service from the West to Didcot itself, and further connections to / from Oxford and the West from Thames Valles stations between Didcot, Reading and London.

Third comment. 10 to 12 minutes is very similar in time to the time taken to change (in a very good case) at the moment, and it's 5 times better than the worst-case scenario of the oft-missed conenctions

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/viadid2.jpg)
Passengers await the train to Oxford arrives at Didcot

Fourth comment.  A through train (provided that a TOC doesn't keep cancelling it - I noticed 16% of services cancelled Swindon to Westbury in the last week - another FGW Cinderalla route) doesn't suffer the "double jeopardy" of a connection where cancellations / delays on either service delay both parts of the joureny

Any route from Cambridge to Portsmouth/Bristol will have to stop at a number of key stations, and Didcott is a major station on this route by virture of two major lines joining at this point.

In short, YES.

Didcot however will add a ridiculous amount of time, for destinations that allready have services to/from Didcot, so I am against calling it here

See below for my view on this :

The Jacobs Consultancy Strategic Rail Authority Greater Western Franchise Replacement Outline Business Case Report (link below) recommended the introduction of a Bristol - Oxford service that called at Didcot , saying that there was a "significantly positive economic case" (Pages 38 - 41)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/foi/responses/2006/september06/swindonwestburytrainsservice/greaterwesternoutlinebusines1103

This was dependent on no additional rolling stock resources being required. Two points of note :

1) The business case would be even stronger if trains ran through to Cambridge / Milton Keynes.

2) If the East West Rail link proposal were to be approved , the package would include new rolling stock.

How come they stopped the Bicester Town - Bristol Temple Meads Service?
I used it quite regularly from Oxford to Swindon and Bristol and it was never empty.

It was removed at the insistance of the then-SRA.  The stated reason was that it was to increase the reliability of the remaining services.  It was fairly lightly used, but that might have been because it was frequently cancelled and was not therefore a service that could be relived on.

As an occasional peaktime traveller between Bath and London, I would perversely like all the HSTs to stop at Didcot, because it would allow me to save over 50 quid in fares by rebooking at Didcot. 

The SRA's Bristol-Oxford decision also severely damaged the-then reasonable hopes of opening a station at Corsham, by removing the services that would have called there.

By the way, welcome to the forum Steve44.

how about increasing the stops at Didcot and missing out Chippenham

Interesting comments about a West to Oxford /Cambridge service calling at Didcot. any such service would have to reverse in the platform.

From other comments in this forum when I suggested a Bristol Swindon stopping service reversing at Trowbridge it was suggested "THEY" didn't like reversing trains in through platforms.

A good overview of Didcot (which has 5 platforms in use) can be found in the link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didcot_Parkway_railway_station

I used the Bristol-Oxford service before it was removed. It saved changing trains at Didcot and Oxford to go to Crewe. This service was often cancelled though for any reason, snow in Inverness would cancel this train.

I'm all for more stops at Didcot because I've got split season tickets.

It was an extremely useful service ... said to have been canned because of a "lack of capacity between Bath and Bristol". 

This is an old thread, but I'm glad you've brought it back to life.   Because the GWRUS, consultation ended at the end of last November, included a proposal for an extra train within the hour from Bristol to Bath, for which it thought the capacity was in place.  Odd one, that ... it kind of confirms my cynical view that once Thames Trains and Great Western came under the same company, the Bristol to Oxford was taken off to save operating costs, since the Bristol to London service is busiest inwards from Reading.

Whilst there are 3 car Turbos leaving Paddington at peak hours I can see no justifcation whatsoever for the Bristol - Oxford service to return. Turbos are of much lower quality than HSTs, for such a long distance journey!

Any cross-country service that runs needs to be fast to justify its existence (so people travel on it instead of going via London).

Therefore, I'm going to stretch my neck out and say that it should not call at Didcot. People can connect at Swindon or Oxford.

Regarding stock, hopefully if Xrail happens, they'll be a few 165s spare from 2017. Only 7 years. ;D

I think I've had to dispel this myth before, but the Oxford-Bristol service was withdrawn in May 2003, a full year before FGW Link came into existence.

If East-West ever happens, the population of Didcot is projected to be in the region of 35,000 people by 2016. If you're a train operator looking for revenue, you won't be bypassing that opportunity, even if it does cost a few minutes for a reversal.

Not necessarily.  Gloucester (population 123,000) lost (almost) all of its calls on the Cross Country services a few years ago.

Hi, Deltic, and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :)

If by any chance that operator wasn't the holder of the Greater Western franchise, then there could be an interesting debate to be had re ORCATS. If the service stopped at Didcot, it would pick up a sizeable chunk of FGW (or whoever's)income from Swindon to Didcot and Didcot to Oxford, even if it didn't carry a single passenger between Swindon and Oxford. And if I understand ORCATS correctly it would take a tiny slice of the income of any passenger travelling from west of Swindon to east of Didcot. So quite lucrative then.

So I would expect the operator to want to call at Didcot, and the holder of the GW franchise not to want it to call there.

But the issue at Gloucester is not population size, simply the layout of the railway lines and the position of the station and the time penalty that imposes, due to the trundle to and from the station on the triangle and the crew having to change ends. Didcot station is effectively one side of the triangle there, so trains reversing there would suffer a far smaller little time penalty than at Gloucester.

The maps on the East-West consortium site make it quite clear that they see Didcot as a key calling point, see http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/route/maps.php (http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/route/maps.php) but when it will happen is anyone's guess, given the recession and the lack of funds from housing developers in Milton Keynes that they seem to be are relying on for much of the money needed.

Not sure why Est West consortium want to stop at Didcot unless it's a terminal station on one of their services.

Thinking about it if they run a Northamton/Bedford Swindon/ Bristol service then Oxford is logical change for Reading/London and Swindon for Melksham/Brisot/S Wales/Golden Valley. There is no reason for them to call at Didcot.

The one thing that seems lacking in East Wests plans is a how do they serve Blechley? I've always thought that if the flyover has to be rebuilt (concrete cancer) then it should have high level platforms so that there is an interchange with th though Bedford trains and WCML in both directions. Otherwise all services from Oxford to Bedford have to trundle up to Milton Keynes and reverse.

If you had bothered to look at the maps, particularly the 2031 variant, then you would see that among the projected services is a stopper terminating at Didcot, but the map also makes clear they see the semi-fasts calling there on their way to and from west, the reasons being obvious enough - connections for express services to Bristol and south Wales and, most importantly, revenue from the park-and-ride magnet that is Didcot Parkway, never mind all the people who will actually be living in the town.

But, in the context of this thread, there is another factor - providing local transport. When the Oxford-Bristols were operating, it was always envisaged that they would be the trains providing a service at reopened stations at Wantage Road and Corsham, not expresses to and from London.

For anyone trying to travel from Wantage Road to Reading and London, the ability to change at Didcot would be crucial, as well as linking fast-growing Wantage and Grove to Didcot, now the key shopping town for much of south Oxfordshire and the Vale of White Horse.

Had either station actually been built, then the Oxford-Bristol service might have survived - at any rate, two stations on the main line would have been far harder to deny a decent service to than somewhere beginning with M.

There nothing in 'East West Rail's published plans about services south of Oxford, indeed the Grip 3 report does say 'Services extending beyond Oxford or Milton Keynes were not to be considered', and although Northampton was then mentioned as one of their proposals, it has now been discounted.

It seems they are yet to decide between the two options remaining, that would be a Grip Stage 4 decision IIRC...


Regarding Bletchley, there are definitely new platforms at flyover level planned.


http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/reports/documents/GRIP3FinalReport.pdf (http://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/reports/documents/GRIP3FinalReport.pdf)

Obviously if the project ever gets off the ground, there may well be possibilities to extend services south of Oxford, but I don't think anything should be assumed as of now.

Paul

Is the issue at Didcot not exactly the same as Gloucester.  Swindon to Oxford trains could either take the avoiding line or to call at the stations, they need to reverse and the crew to change ends.  The question is, "Is the time penalty worth it for the extra revenue to be gained by calling at this station, bearing in mind this might make all journeys not to / changing at Didcot longer and potentially uncompetitive.  For me, if the station at Grove / Wantage Road is not re-opened then there is already a good service frequency Swindon - Didcot and Didcot - Oxford provided by existing services. 

All of this is probably for some time considerably in the future, sadly.

I agree. I don't feel that the journey time should be compromised. Miss it out. As I've said, all the connexions are still available from Swindon or Oxford.

As I said, it's quite different from Gloucester. The station is right at the junction, with minimal running time to get and on off the main lines. You make it sound as though the crew would be walking the length of something like a Eurostar, rather than a humble DMU, which you could turn round inside five minutes.

It's not as if the direct curve from Foxhall junction is laid out for fast running anyway, more like something a bit above walking pace, just like the approach or exit from the station for Oxford route trains.

And whether any of you like it or not, no train operator of any inter-regional service going that way is going to miss out a growing town which is the key transport hub in that part of Oxfordshire, with 1,100 parking spaces already (almost double the number available at Swindon), and the county council investing ^5.4m in the forecourt to create better pick-up and drop-off and bus facilities.

I still think there should be a Bristol > London Service calling at Bath Spa > Bradford-on-Avon (SDO) > Trowbridge(SDO) > Westbury (Reverse) > Pewsey > Reading > London Paddington

Or (Grahame may like this one)

Bristol Temple Meads > Bath Spa > Bradford-On-Avon (SDO) > Trowbridge (SDO) > Westbury (Reverse) > Melksham (SDO) > Chippenham > Swindon > Didcot Parkway (Every other service) > Reading > London Paddingtion...

There would almost certainly be demand for it... as if you want to go to London from Trowbridge or Bradford-on-Avon you have to change at Westbury, Bath Spa or Salisbury (Waterloo) (Much cheaper than FGW)

You can go direct into Waterloo but there are only 2 or 3 trains a day and it takes much much longer...! But is much cheaper too (and more punctual)

;D

Do these station need a direct service to London? Surely connexions at Swindon, etc.

Nice idea. I use the SWT Westbury - Salisbury - Waterloo service you mention at least a couple of times a month, often more, but usually return FGW Paddington - Pewsey - Westbury as there's no straightforward service back (unless I spend a very long day in London) (and we'll gloss over the fact that rather than drive to Westbury, I used to be able to both leave from and get back to Melksham not so very long ago... grrr)

Cant imagine there is demand for an off peak service of such a nature. Perhaps a peak Taunton - London:

Taunton, Castle Cary, Frome, Westbury, Trowbridge, Melksham, Chippenham, Swindon, Didcot, Reading, London

On at least one occasion (we're going back a long way here - I think summer 2001) I made the Bristol - Oxford direct journey on a 158 that FGW/TT had on hire from Central Trains. Seemed reasonably well suited to the job apart from the obvious implications of running 90 mph stock on a 125 mph route that also affected the Turbos. I think at that time the service was running through to Bicester Town at least once or twice a day too.

IMO I think it is time we looked to the DB model of ICE/IC fast intercity trains and RE Regioanl expresses, RB local country trains and S bahn commuter trains.

On most routes in Germany you have regular ICE/IC between major centres and RE/RB trains serving local staions and giving adevrtised connections into and outof each other at major stations. Thus one has to decide is the East West to Bristol an IC or RE, if it's IC it runs Oxford possibly Bath direct. If it's RE it runs via Didcot and then stops at any Vale of White Horse new stations Swindon Chippenham via Melksahm  all staions to Bath (have to work out where to reverse it).

However it believe reinstatement of the North curve at Bradford is now becoming vital to provide through stopping trains from the Avon Valley to Swindon, both for journey opportunities and relief of the mainline during electrification.  It would be either a RB Bristol Swindon service or the East West RE service.

In Germany many RE RB services are run by operators other than DB but the timetables are still integrated.

Of course such sensible planning cannot happen with current system especialy if there are different operators due to all the arguments over revenue sharing.

They already do... I was just thinking it might be an idea to route say 4 trains a day from Bristol > London via Westbury > Pewsey or Westbury > Melksham... It makes sense as you'll always have people wanting to use the BANES & Wiltshire Corridors...


I do like your idea that you have suggested... Although considering there are already 2 trains within 10 minutes of each other using the Taunton > Westbury line... it might not be possible.. Perhaps an overtake on the Frome Branch or ran after the 07:19 (07:25 Perhaps) which wouldn't get to Swindon till 09:00 at least


Reverse at Westbury would be ideal for that as i suggested in my post... just whether to stop at Trowbridge before Westbury and then run fast on the return towards B-o-A or run fast to Westbury and then call at Trowbridge on the way back through...??!