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Journey by Journey => Plymouth and Cornwall => Topic started by: woody on December 06, 2008, 21:36:02



Title: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: woody on December 06, 2008, 21:36:02
At what point is a train considered dangerously overcrowded.Today I saw the 1406 Paddington/Penzance (departs Plymouth at 1726) leaving Plymouth full and standing with as many as 30 or 40 odd people standing in one coach alone after picking up 300 to 400 at Plymouth on their way home to Cornwall after a days shopping in Plymouth.Not an unusual  situation on Saturday services between Cornwall and Plymouth.Believe you me the overcrowding on some services in the far west now is as bad as anywhere.What is the answer,more trains or price people off them?


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: ReWind on December 06, 2008, 21:55:25
The answer should be more carriages.

The problem with this though, is that in Devon & Cornwall you have set sections of line in which DMU units operate on regulary, for example Exeter-Paignton, Plymouth - Penzance and the branches.

The question that arises is Where would extra units come from, to support services in Peak hours?

Everything is very localised in Devon and Cornwall


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: chrisoates on December 06, 2008, 22:50:58
More carriages would be nice - even the correct amount would do.
That particular overcrowded service would have been an 8 car HST so not much to be done there.

I see in future when XC start turning around their (mostly shortened units) at Plymouth there won't even be reservations through Cornwall.

I can imagine what it was like at Plymouth today, I've been vertically accommodated from Exeter to St Erth when even more crammed on at Plymouth.

I've been at Truro when the afternoon single car has turned up rammed and the awaiting hoard wouldn't even let off de-trainers before squeezing aboard - doors were locked and it sat there until BTP arrived and sorted out the mess.
Someones Granny was crushed in the car whilst her family were on the platform, nobody was very willing to get off...not very dignified way to travel.

Don't for God's sake complain about overcrowding though - see what's happened on Plymouth buses - parents complained about overcrowding on school buses so the drivers now count up how many are on board and when full refuse to sell tickets so the excess kids get left at the bus stop.

     



Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 07, 2008, 00:16:27
At what point is a train considered dangerously overcrowded.

There is no such definition. There is a point at which a train becomes 'crowded' but no definition as to 'overcrowding', and no definition as to 'dangerous' - the Train Manager or Driver (in DOO cases) carries the authority to refuse travel, but given the very nature of the situation, it is rarely enforced.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: G.Uard on December 07, 2008, 06:45:47
Spot on, there is no official definition.  That said, guards are encouraged to call Control when trains are 'full and standing'; the current favoured terminology for crush situations. One school of thought actually considers that crammed trains are safer, as pax are less likely to be thrown around in the event of mishap.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 07, 2008, 11:58:05
At what point is a train considered dangerously overcrowded.Today I saw the 1406 Paddington/Penzance (departs Plymouth at 1726) leaving Plymouth full and standing with as many as 30 or 40 odd people standing in one coach alone after picking up 300 to 400 at Plymouth on their way home to Cornwall after a days shopping in Plymouth.Not an unusual  situation on Saturday services between Cornwall and Plymouth.Believe you me the overcrowding on some services in the far west now is as bad as anywhere.What is the answer,more trains or price people off them?

We can only blame Alistair Darling for getting into those shops to save 2.5%

It simply cannot be missed!! I saved a collosal 43p whilst in Paignton yesterday  :D


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Exeter on December 07, 2008, 15:14:55
Overcrowded from Plymouth!  It wasn't that good from Reading either!  I had the misfortune to travel on it from Paddington through to Exeter and to say it was "full and standing" would be an understatement. Fair play to the Train manager though, he announced before leaving Paddington that he expected the train to be busy and asked people to remove bags and coats from empty seats. After Reading he came through and enforced it and ensured that every seat was occupied by a passenger and not a bag! His approach was authorative, straight to the point and very politely put, but you could tell that some people did not appreciate having someone sit next to them; why are these people so inconsiderate and have to be told these things? Even so, when I fought my way to the buffet I still think there was about 90 to 100 people standing. Based on what happened at Plymouth as well its not extra coaches that are needed - its extra trains.   


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 07, 2008, 15:21:11
TRains from Paddington to the West are always busy on weekends and Friday evenings. 1803/1903 from Paddington on Fridays are killers!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: John R on December 07, 2008, 15:47:24
Overcrowded from Plymouth!  It wasn't that good from Reading either!  I had the misfortune to travel on it from Paddington through to Exeter and to say it was "full and standing" would be an understatement. Fair play to the Train manager though, he announced before leaving Paddington that he expected the train to be busy and asked people to remove bags and coats from empty seats. After Reading he came through and enforced it and ensured that every seat was occupied by a passenger and not a bag! His approach was authorative, straight to the point and very politely put, but you could tell that some people did not appreciate having someone sit next to them; why are these people so inconsiderate and have to be told these things? Even so, when I fought my way to the buffet I still think there was about 90 to 100 people standing. Based on what happened at Plymouth as well its not extra coaches that are needed - its extra trains.   

Welcome to the Forum Exeter.

I'm glad to hear that the TM was proactive in reclaiming seats for passengers, and I wish it was done a little more often.   


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Timmer on December 07, 2008, 16:38:58
London-West Country trains have always been busy for as long as I can remember. Where as Bristol and South Wales services have seen their frequency doubled to every half hour not much has changed in service frequency for trains west of Exeter.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: moonrakerz on December 07, 2008, 17:07:57
Spot on, there is no official definition. 

But there is for farm livestock !


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: woody on December 07, 2008, 20:21:10
According to a friend of mine who travelled on it today the situation was repeated this morning on the 0830 Penzance/Paddington as Cornish shoppers again headed for Plymouth.The HST was jam-packed to Plymouth  then departed half empty onward towards London.Local travel from the West between Cornwall and Plymouth certainly seems to be booming in contrast to local travel from Devon into Plymouth which never seems to be anywhere near that of the Cornish commute.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 07, 2008, 20:53:50
Most people in Devon head for Exeter as it is much faster.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: ReWind on December 07, 2008, 21:02:02
Isn't some of the line imbetween Plymouth and Penzance still single track?

Therefore not much room for extra capacity!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: woody on December 07, 2008, 21:14:38
Most people in Devon head for Exeter as it is much faster.
If your in Devon driving to Plymouth down the Dual A38 is the prefered choice for most commuters from Devon into Plymouth as its much quicker than rail whereas Exeter as you say has a good rail service from many parts of Devon.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: vacman on December 07, 2008, 21:23:15
Isn't some of the line imbetween Plymouth and Penzance still single track?

Therefore not much room for extra capacity!
theres plenty more capacity on the Cornish mainline, there are three single line sections 1st is on the Royal albert bridge which is around half to three quarters of a mile long, then there is the section over Largain viaduct which is less than a mile then Penzance to Marazion which is the longest at around 2 miles, the main problem in Cornwall are the long block sections in the West of the county, although it would be possible physicly to run a train every 20 mins!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: woody on December 08, 2008, 09:51:37
I see the 1605 Exeter St Davids/Penzance was a 3 car 153/142 combo on Sunday.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: smokey on December 27, 2008, 10:44:06
London-West Country trains have always been busy for as long as I can remember. Where as Bristol and South Wales services have seen their frequency doubled to every half hour not much has changed in service frequency for trains west of Exeter.

Back in the 1970's summer Saturdays every London Padd-Penzance Train (loading up to 14coaches) had a Relief service running ahead of the main train for Turn up and go passengers!

Oh such service! Never to be seen again.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 27, 2008, 14:04:45
London-West Country trains have always been busy for as long as I can remember. Where as Bristol and South Wales services have seen their frequency doubled to every half hour not much has changed in service frequency for trains west of Exeter.

Back in the 1970's summer Saturdays every London Padd-Penzance Train (loading up to 14coaches) had a Relief service running ahead of the main train for Turn up and go passengers!

Oh such service! Never to be seen again.

Why did FGW run a 1433 Paddington - Plymouth running in relief to the 1506 to Penzance then ;)


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: smokey on December 27, 2008, 16:13:05
One relief train is some what short of Eight relief trains, and consider that all 16 trains would have been longer than normal.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Sleepy on December 27, 2008, 16:34:37
It is good they did something with assets available but the general feeling from that era was the coaching stock used was in such poor condition that holiday makers assumed this was the norm and vowed not to holiday by train again due to dirty/late services.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Timmer on December 27, 2008, 16:36:23
It is good they did something with assets available but the general feeling from that era was the coaching stock used was in such poor condition that holiday makers assumed this was the norm and vowed not to holiday by train again due to dirty/late services.
Indeed, quite a difference between a new HST (as was) and a rake of scruffy tired Mk1s.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: vacman on December 27, 2008, 18:08:08
It is good they did something with assets available but the general feeling from that era was the coaching stock used was in such poor condition that holiday makers assumed this was the norm and vowed not to holiday by train again due to dirty/late services.
Indeed, quite a difference between a new HST (as was) and a rake of scruffy tired Mk1s.
Here here! Mk1's are bloody awful, whenever I go to a preserved railway I dread the MK1's, the moquette feels like it's made of sandpaper, the ride quality is appaling and it doesn't bear thinking about the crashworthyness as has been proved in many crashes!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: smokey on December 28, 2008, 12:29:02
Mk1's were looked after a lot better by BR than Cash strapped private railways.

Even if they were coummuter stock used at peak hours Mon-Fridays, the Relief Trains run on Saturdays were a Darn site better than standing on a Train London-Plymouth that people get today and pay a fortune for the privilage.

Today's railway is a mess regardless of who the TOC is run by.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: DevonTrains2008 on December 28, 2008, 20:49:12
You just CAN'T try and 'Price People Off The Railways'!
Train travel is already way too expensive!  >:(

Anyway, last Monday the Paddington > Penzance looked busy at V.Busy at Truro but it emptied when it stopped! I was waiting for the up towards Paddington and that was quieter - even though we had reservations.



Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: vacman on December 28, 2008, 23:47:43
Mk1's were looked after a lot better by BR than Cash strapped private railways.

Even if they were coummuter stock used at peak hours Mon-Fridays, the Relief Trains run on Saturdays were a Darn site better than standing on a Train London-Plymouth that people get today and pay a fortune for the privilage.

Today's railway is a mess regardless of who the TOC is run by.
how often do you see a Padd Penzance full and standing beyond Reading? not that often really! MK1's were and still are horrible deathtraps!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Exeter on December 29, 2008, 13:53:32
How often do you see a Penzance train full and standingpast Reading???  Errr, most fridays and summer saturdays actually!!!!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: vacman on December 29, 2008, 22:15:42
How often do you see a Penzance train full and standingpast Reading???  Errr, most fridays and summer saturdays actually!!!!
Full maybe, but not full and standing, not enough to justify a relief for every train.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Exeter on December 30, 2008, 19:12:44
I didn't say the situation justified a relief for every departure but certainly the 1206 and 1406 ex Paddington, two trains I regulary travel on, are most Fridays on departure from Reading, full and standing! Reliefs justified perhaps on Bank Holiday weekends??? What is justified ON EVERY FRIDAY, is additional capacity on existing trains. What is needed is some 2+9 sets possibly at the expense of making some Oxford services 2+7. And yes I accept there probably would be some issues with set diagramming but no more so had the ill fated plan to have 2+7 sets minus buffet cars come to fruitition. If no more stock is available then do the best with what you have!       


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 30, 2008, 19:52:25
Would extending the 1306 ex Paddington to Penzance help?


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Btline on December 30, 2008, 22:38:45
But that would mess up diagramming, and decrease reliability (unless more rolling stock was acquired).


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 31, 2008, 11:00:47
FGW have enough sets, fleet availability is never very high on HSTs!


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: Btline on December 31, 2008, 17:53:41
Enough sets hanging around Plymouth? ???


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: devon_metro on December 31, 2008, 19:36:05
Its simple really.

HST set 1
0906 PAD-PLY arr 1225
Visit Laira
1657 PLY-PAD 2022

HST set 2
1306 PLY-PNZ arr 1825
1840 PNZ-PLY arr 2040
Visit Laira overnight
0830 PLY-PNZ arr 1030
1055 PNZ-PAD arr 1622



Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: woody on January 04, 2009, 21:00:38
How often do you see a Penzance train full and standingpast Reading???  Errr, most fridays and summer saturdays actually!!!!
Apparently last Saturday the 1000 Penzance/Paddington was so full and standing in Cornwall that about 150 people were dumped off the train at Par by the train manager for safety reasons.Severe overcrowding between Penzance and Plymouth on some services is now an ongoing problem that needs addressing not denying.The trouble is that problems in the far west do not get the treated with the same urgency as those closer to London.It really is disgusting the way that overcrowding in the far west is being sweep under the table by the Dft.


Title: Re: Dangerously overcrowded train?
Post by: plymothian on January 04, 2009, 21:48:49
It can be done, like yesterday for the Arsenal game - two trains (one charter), so four journeys, were added to the timetable at 7.30 & 8.00 plymouth departure and 7.48 paddington.   it did mean that trains were formed incorrectly and of some old stock though.



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