Great Western Coffee Shop

As you are all probably well aware, the railway shuts down on Christmas Day & Boxing Day.

Is this really a good idea though?

Christmas Day I can understand, But Boxing Day is a Day where Football Matches are played & people generally visit family & friends.

I have heard in the past that there is talk of a Boxing Day train service.  Has this developed?  Also, what would staff think of working Boxing Day?

The only trains to run over the festive period are the HX Airport trains. 

I do think the railway could do with a Boxing Day train service, as many people travel on this day, and as there is no public transport, the roads/parking can get very congested!

No there should not be a boxing day service. It's 1 of the few days a year i see no need for it. If it's football then the roads are fairly dead (unless its near a mall). Then there's no excuse to not drive...

As around 60% of people are still going to be at home on boxing day, so again what's the point? Most people would rather bee with friends / family for another rare day they're not working than on a train ;)

I find it strange that the UK does not run any service.  Other countries in Europe celebrate Christmas and do run a service.  I am not suggesting anyone should be forced to work Christmas Day though.

But to get to Football/Friends/Family etc they need to drive there and if you don't/can't drive then that can prove rather difficult??

Not xmas day but I can see the need for a limited service on Boxing day, even if just afternoon

I agree with Vacman, because often the 27th is a working day. If you don't have a service on the afternoon of Boxing Day how can you get back home to be ready for work.

With signalling controlled by relatively few boxes, it would seem that a skeleton service from mid afternoon on Boxing Day (for example, an hourly service from Swansea to London via Bristol) would enable all those would have to travel to do so, whilst restricting the number of staff who need to work.

Of course, if such a limited service proved to be over-subscribed then it would prove the demand for a slightly better service in subsequent years.

I believe a couple of the London & South East railways are providing a limited service on Boxing Day this year. 

On boxing day there are several companies providing a service, but not necessarily a train.

Eurostar will run, but is starting later.
First Capital Connect will have a bus from Luton Airport to St Pancras via St Albans
First Great Western will not have a train service, but the RailAir link from Reading will go to Heathrow with some extended to Gatwick.
First ScotRail has a limited service on some routes via Glasgow
Gatwick Express will run buses.
Heathrow Express has a normal service
London Underground will have a service
South Eastern will have a limited service on some routes
Southern will have a limited service on some routes
Stansted Express will run at a reduced frequency

and I think that's it..

 I can see so many problems/obstacles to providing train services over the Xmas holiday.

 I suppose railway staff like to see family amd friends.

Curiously, I've found over the last couple of Christmases (and running a business that will be open on Christmas Day) that we've more people wanting to work that day than we need - and it's totally individual's choice - I think my working was "I'll do Christmas day unless anyone else wants to" and I've had several offers!  But then other are strongly NOT wanting to work.  The word "polarised" comes to mind. However - I would question whether or not a Christmas Day service would be used, or woul drun near empty ... I have (driven, cycled) around over the years on Christmas Day in London and in the West; it's the only day of the year I have felt safe on a pushbike around Trafalgar Square!

Boxing Day is a rather different case - haven't I heard that it's one of the busiest days of the year on the roads, and there's a lot of sport and sales starting?  By offering no service or a minimal service only, are the railways perhaps giving weight to the claim that they're not really needed? [Discussion point - not intended to reflect my view!]

Is there another country in the world that shuts down it's rail network for two days?

Who is the railway system for? If it's for the benefit of the people running it, then shutting down half the network every weekend and the whole network on 25 & 26 December is fine. Let the passengers travel when they feel like running trains. Maybe they could shut the whole system down for a week in August too, so the staff can go on their holidays...  ;D

This two day closure comes from a time when all the shops were shut on Sundays, and British Rail couldn't afford the overtime payments to run a railway at xmas. The fact that privatisation hasn't even got rid of these historical anomalies shows what an utter failure it has been.

The murmurings over the validity of a Boxing Day service have slowly increased over the years. I know that FGW would like to provide a service as there is money to be had from people travelling to sports events, Boxing Day sales, and wanting to get home from a Christmas break. I could see a limited service working quite well over time.

The recent failed driver harmonisation package did include provision to mean drivers would be obliged to work Boxing Day (at an enhanced rate), so it's clearly on the agenda.

Most signalboxes (all of the large ones) are open anyway. I can see it happening within the next few years as slowly over the years more and more operators are starting to introduce services. I can't see any demand for a Christmas Day service though.

It does have a drawback though. Quite a lot of engineering possessions take advantage of the two day shut-down and so that work would potentially cause problems with 'bustitution'.

 In my opinion you could not run a timetabled service on Boxing Day unless it was within the working week, I do not believe you could rely on
 overtime/volutary working.

 Seem to remember not so long ago it was a struggle to get a train on a Sunday because of lack of Train crew.
 
 

Please note that in North Devon virtually all bus services are operating a normal Sunday Service on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day.

A Boxing day service would be great. I know many people who would travel on Boxing day if they could to visit different family members etc or go places whilst they have the day off - especially this year as we get a four day weekend. Surely a Sunday service isn't out of the question?!

I ran into many problems last year when I found there was no FGW service on Boxing day. I had naturally presumed there would be as SET and all buses were running a Sunday timetable. Many others assume the same and run into the same problem.

I dont think there is a need for any train services on Christmas Day - maybe a very limited service could run on Boxing Day - as other people have suggested perhaps a 2 hourly service from Swansea to London calling at Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Cardiff Central, Newport, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads, Bath Spa, Swindon, Reading and London Paddington.

Also maybe a 2 hourly Crosscountry Service from Plymouth to the North calling at Bristol TM, Cheltenham Spa, Birmingham New Street, Derby etc. 

ATW seem to operate a limited service on New Years Day with the majority of Valley Lines services suspended that day.

Not sure what the position is regarding the restructuring at the moment, but I can tell you that a great many drivers saw through the ruse in the Harmonisation package that allowed for Xmas day / Boxing day working and this influenced a great many of them to vote no. Even running trains on Boxing day could prove to be highly unpopular.

This once again demonstrates the problem of having a franchise.  Times are changing and there may be a case of having a service on at least Boxing day.  However the franchise has been signed on the basis of no service on these two days.  If you want a service on these days it will cost more money in subsidy and would require negotiation with the government giving more money out. (Which they will not want to be seen doing)

AIUI the next round of franchises will have a boxing day service included so in the years to come we may see some changes.

And quite rightly so!


This is a subject that still stands the hairs up on the HSS boys (and girls) backs. A while ago this group of drivers once enjoyed the 25th and 26th December off with pay with nothing for those two days taken from the holiday entitlement. Anyone who wanted to work them were paid time +3/4 and a day of in lieu (attractive eh!). Sadly this has all gone but is still not forgotten and is a bowl of contention amonst us High Speeders!!(at Bristol it is anyway!)

Their already talking about never mind waiting for a new round of franchising. Christmas working is just around the corner my friend, and could be as early as next year. Network Rail have mooted this and only a couple of months ago it was reported as being so in a broadsheet, the name of which I fail to remember. There will be no re-negotiation of subsidies because the routes that will require it won't be having a service!

Woo hoo!, triple time and no nasty dry turkey or unpleasant relatives.  Perhaps Christmas trains would attract a premium fare. ;D

From my distant past memory I recall the main reason why BR stopped Christmas and Boxing day services, I think about 25 years ago, because it was uneconomic at the time very few people wanting to use the services and with at that time low numbers of passengers, freight, news paper & parcel and Royal Mail trains over that period it was also seen as a good time to do a number of major engineering jobs that otherwise would have been disruptive.

The Panel Signal Boxes, Electrical Control Rooms and IECC's have always been maned over Christmas. 

For a Christmas and Boxing day services to operate NR and more specifically the TOC's would have to be convinced that they could earn revenue to cover the cost, may be we the railways are in a better place than 25 years ago with regards people wanting to use us over these two days.

Last Christmas Day trains were actually in 1964 or thereabouts. BR then had a brief flirtation with Boxing Day services, as your suggest, in the early 1980s, but the numbers just didn't stack up. That said, the level of Sunday afternoon and evening passenger traffic in those days was nothing like it is today, so perhaps running on Boxing Day for people heading back after visiting the family may be worth another try on a limited basis.

Even National Express doesn't bother running coaches on Christmas Day and Stagecoach charges a cool ^25 one way fare on the handful of Oxford Tube coaches it will run.

I would expect any new drivers/guards/station contracts will have Xmas working written in (mine does at double time premium + day holiday in lieu).  While I disagree and do not see the need on Christmas day, I can see a Boxing day service coming, and as G.uard says, with my family, I would be the first one down to book on  ;D

I suppose it is down to the TOCs to be convinced that the premium payments + extra holidays days will be worth the revenue.

G.Uard, You write any new Drivers/Guards will have new contracts with the 25th & 26th working in it. But I think you are missing the point. As I see it if FGW decided to run trains on these days anyone who would have been rostered to work would be expected to work. High Speed drivers used to be booked off with pay on these days with no loss of their holiday entiltement. However volunters were always asked for and part and parcel for some people working (usually the older single men with no families) was the attractive terms offered. These have all but disappered. Now let's say that next year they decide they will run trains over Christmas and they are unable to get the volunters required, It will be the booked men who would have had work those trains had it been normal day of the week whether they were a new driver on the job or not. The only way to be sure of one or both of these days off would be to apply for a leave day from the entitlement which can only be done at midnight on the 25th and 26th of June at the earliest. At Bristol then you have to be within the first four (7 on a Saturday) to apply to be absolutly certain of getting those days off (unless of course they fell on a Sunday. However if the main drivers trade union had their way even that could change!)

The only problem is as myself and 12hoursunday have pointed out is that the companies would need to negotiate an agreement with the staff. This sort of thing cannot be imposed without stirring up a hornets nest. I don't think you will find that there are that many of the older hands that are that keen to work Xmas day / Boxing day, irrespective of how many days in lieu or multiples of the base salary you throw at the problem.

Suspect it will all fall into the 'too difficult' area and not bothered with in all honesty.

Changes to contract can only be done with the agreement of the unions.  HSS drivers do have a xmas / boxing day agreement effectively written as they must use A/L days for thoses two days.  Also there are drivers already working in the depots at Paddington, Bristol, Swansea and Plymouth on those two days.  They are filled by volunteer but if there are not enough volunteers then they will roster a driver to work.  As double time is on offer I have yet to see any problem covering these turns  :)

As a railway worker who doesn't get any bank holiday off, is it ok if i have xmas day and boxing day off? Using two days of my annual holiday entitlement of course... ??? Sorry to be sarcastic...Merry Xmas!

'Twas not I


I had prepared a diatribe slating those who wished to impose on our measly 2 days off, (for which we use a compulsory 2 annual leave days).   However, I thought of colleagues on Frost Watch at enhanced rates, remembered past 'festive' activities and changed my post at the last minute.

Merry Christmas and Bah Humbug! to you all.  ;D

I had a contract like that with a previous railway employer the only three days stated in the contract as being public / bank holidays was Christmas, boxing and new years day the rest I apply for as leave if I wanted the day off or even worse was forced to take as leave if there was not work to do, like I said now an ex employer.

I am sure the traveling public do not realise that the railways are a 24 hour a day 365 day operation with a lot of employees working some very unsociable hours

I don't think a xmas day service would be necessary but a boxing day limited service might prove useful for those that cannot drive. Although with engineering works over the christmas break, it could cause delays to the works and then cause delays for the normal service on the 27th

See-ing it's only time + 25% for these two days, that a driver would receive I think that they may have a shortage of volunters.
Also we need to get one thing straight. Previously drivers were booked off with pay (without loss of any holiday entiltement) because there was no service provided. That was the only reason. Nothing to do with union agreements etc. A notice was always posted ( although I have failed to see one this year) signed by mangement & LDC stating that if no volunters could be found then the booked driver would be required to work his turn. That is how it stands on the HSS side.

The SprinterMeister will no doubt enlighten us what happened with the West lot.

I know it's out of our Area but unless First Scot Rail run a Full Boxing day Service then why have Any Boxing Day trains in England or Wales?

IIRC untill very recently December 26^th was a normal working day in Scotland, maybe this changed when Jan 1^st became a bank holiday in England

I don't think Xmas day or Boxing day should be to much of an issue for NR because as I was sitting at home Xmas morning look out of my window, which over looks part of the line Maidenhead to Bourne End, a NR patrol team walked past so NR has maintenance teams in already.

Which in theory to NR Xmas and Boxing Days are normal operational days it up to the TOC to run trains.

The media have been giving very negative coverage about the railway not providing a service - a 58-hour complete shutdown seems to be the phrase they're all picking up on. Having spent an hour or so at Reading on the 27th - probably the busiest post-Christmas day for rail travel - things were very much on a knife edge in terms of getting people on and off the longer distance trains. The station staff were doing their best, but most trains were loading/unloading for 3-4 minutes. A couple of 4-car Voyagers were in a right state in terms of crowding. Thankfully everything was managing to run pretty much on time.

I'm a member of staff who enjoys having Xmas and Boxing Day off of work guaranteed, and stands to lose out if trains run over these two days, but I can't deny that a Boxing Day service should at least be trialled on FGW routes. As mentioned there's the sales starting, sporting fixtures, and some people would like to go home from visiting relatives/friends on the 26th which would ease the pressure on the 27th a little.

This of course all hinges on staff being provided on trains and at stations, and NR being able to provide Signallers and maintenance staff, but vast numbers would not be required. Obviously engineering work might cause some alterations and if Reading happened to be playing Cardiff City that day you might need a couple of Footy specials. Broadly though, I'd suggest the following service should be provided initially from around 9am on Boxing Day:

Paddington-Plymouth-Penzance: Every two hours calling at Reading, Westbury, Castle Cary, Taunton, Tiverton PW, Exeter SD, Newton Abbot, Totnes and Plymouth. Every other train (i.e. every 4 hours) to extend to Penzance calling at the usual stops. Branch line connections to Barnstaple/Newquay/Falmouth/St. Ives to connect with these trains.

Paddington-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea: Every hour calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa, Bristol TM, Newport and Cardiff Central. Every other train (i.e. every 2 hours) extending to Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath and Swansea.

Paddington-Gloucester-Cheltenham-Worcester: Every 4 hours calling at Reading, Didcot, Swindon, Kemble, Stonehouse, Gloucester, Cheltenham Spa and Worcester Shrub Hill.

Paddington-Oxford-Worcester-Malvern-Hereford: Every 2 hours calling at Slough, Maidenhead, Reading and Oxford. Every other train (i.e. every 4 hours) extending to Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton, Honeybourne, Evesham, Pershore, Worcester SH & FS, Malvern Link, Great Malvern, Colwall, Ledbury and Hereford.

Paddington Local Services: Every hour a stopping train to Oxford, and every hour a stopping train to Reading - usual off-peak weekday stops except the Reading's would also stop at West Ealing and Hanwell. Hourly branch line connections to Windsor. Hourly or two hourly branch line connections to Henley and Marlow.

Other services: Two hourly service between Reading and Gatwick Airport. Two hourly service between Reading and Bedwyn via Newbury. Two hourly service from Cardiff-Portsmouth (usual off-peak stops) and a Four-hourly service from Great Malvern-Westbury.

Oh, and finally a shuttle service at least every 30 minutes on the TransWilts from Salisbury to Swindon via Westbury and Melksham to make sure my plans get Graham's seal of approval!  ;D

Boxing day isn't a bank holiday in Scotland (they have 2 january as an extra bank holiday in Scotland instead).  Traditionally Hogmany has been more of a holiday/party in Scotland than Christmas. 

It has been suggested that another First company will run a Boxing Day 2009 service.  However, Boxing Day is on a Saturday next year, so consequently the bank holiday is on Monday.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/MP-hopes-for-Boxing-Day.4825064.jp

What about Pewsey?

What about it? ;) What about Bramley? What about Heyford? What about Bicester Town? What about Weston-Super-Mare? You have to draw a line somewhere and Pewsey's passenger footfall is very small - though perhaps the two hourly Plymouth service that doesn't carry on to Penzance could stop there? After all, it's only meant to be a draft plan based on my own personal suggestions!

I would start with a much simpler and basic service, designed to enable those must travel home on the afternoon and evening of Boxing Day in order to start work on the 27th to do so. Leisure traffic (football, sales) is another matter.

So (all starting in the afternoon, to discourage daytrippers):
bi hourly Swansea to London and bi hourly Bristol to London.
bi hourly Plymouth to London with a couple starting back from Penzance
bi hourly Portsmouth-Cardiff (strengthened to 6 coaches if that's feasible with platform lengths)
hourly Oxford - London stopping services
and a couple of services each way on the Stroud, Cotswold and Weymouth lines, and some other local lines.

That way a basic "get you there" service could be provided, without encouraging demand that would result in a large number of railway workers to need to give up their Boxing Day.

I would not allow advance tickets to be valid. If you need to travel on Boxing Day then you should not do so at a discounted rate. That would be contraversial and could give the press a field day, but the logic is sound - the railway would not be actively encouraging travel on Boxing Day, so it shouldn't be offering seats at prices which are designed to fill empty seats on trains which are otherwise running.

We can have a field day with this one (but, seriously, what a good day to look at some radical ideas!).

125s:
Every 2 hours - Paddington to Penzance via Bristol and Weston
Every 2 hours - Paddington to Swansea via Gloucester

Regional:
Every 2 hours - Cardiff to Portsmouth
Every 2 hours - Gatwick to Hereford
Every 2 hours - Chippenham to Weymouth

Connections between trains to be very carefully arranged - for example, train from Gatwick to arrive at Reading, then a 125 to call Westbound, and then the Hereford carry on. Similar thing at Westbury.

TV:
Every 2 hours - London to Bedwyn
Every 2 hours - London to Banbury

Regional and Thames Valley trains to be "all station", and the Swansea service to be all stations from Didcot to Cardiff at least.   And I would need to think further (and take advise) on Worcester to Bristol, Somerset, Devon, Cornwall and TV branches.  I'm suprised that no-one has proposed anthing for Paignton.

And, yes, John R. It would be a great day for trying out a pricing policy that didn't put rail fares into disrepute!  I'm not going to agree with your "discourage day trippers" though - if they are happy to use the service and pay the price, why turn them away?

Has anyone thought how the income from this extra day's service could / would be channelled to the [correct] operator?

I

Graham - If you encourage daytrippers then it would mean many more railway staff would end up working.  Also, if you have trains in the morning (which you need to in order to have daytrippers) then staff would end up not being able to enjoy a drink or three in the evening on Xmas day because of the need to be on duty a few hours later. So it would not only be Boxing Day which would be impacted.

Let's hope (from a staff's point of view) that management turn a blind eye to IndustryInsider's hairbrained suggestion eh! ;D

I like it, no Exeter unit work involved! ;)

Fortunately for you, they've rarely shown signs of listening in all the years I've been suggesting things to them...  :)

Clearly, the thought of having to work over Christmas is a horror for many of our posters who work in the industry, and there are very strong suspicions that voluntary systems would turn into mandated systems.  As far as this forum is concerned, the discussion is an academic one, and it's good to have aired the views and conflicting needs and desires.

As an afterthought, I'm adding a link which contains strong language to a video clip which highlights the tensions in roster scheduling. It's a spoof ... not to be taken too seriously (and not to be viewed if you're easily offended), and needless to say I don't have any association with the clip or its producers - I'm just linking to an external site and leaving you to form an opinion (and I hope be amused!)
http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/mr_metaxa/?action=view&current=00HitlersleavedeclinedFG.flv

I have prior to your posting grahame already seen this video and must say I thought it was one of the most amusing ones I've seen during 2008.

On another note which croped up on the video re HSS staff it's worth pointing out that there was (and still is) friction amongst High Speed and West staff and likewise High Speed and LTV at the other end of the line. Whether this is because of the differing pay and conditions that still exist, or maybe that working a Sprinter is beneath some HST's staff I wouldn't know. I like a lot of staff will have the friendly banter with others from all sides of the buisness. However one thing will always stick in my mind, when the messing facilities were brought together on platform 7 at Bristol Temple Meads in the earlier part of the franchise ( which was previously the High Speed mess room) I happened to walk into the canteen area which at the time was being occupied by around 6 drivers and guards from the Wessex Trains brigade. A deadly silence came over the place as I entered and those looks as if I was dogs poo on their shoes will haunt me forever!

That vid was flippin funny!  :D :D :D :D

Loving the ideo!!! ;D ;D Funniest thing I've seen all Christmas, I'll remember it everytime i have leave declined...... :D

Excellent video. :D There is another version connected with the recent BNP member leak:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BUNUuqlG1a0

It contains bad language again.

Graham - you should put a health warning on that video. I was already laughing my socks off even before the comments about Queen Alison, which left me in hysterics.   

That was hilarious  ;D

In the late 1970s and early 1980s when I lived in London and parents lived near Banbury there was, I recall, a basic service on London Underground and BR. Totally agree with earlier comment that for those visiting relatives over Christmas but needing to work on the 27th, some service is needed if only to get back for work on the 27th.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/tgmtik.jpg)

Just to dig up an old chestnut.

Never really thought about there being no trains on Boxing Day before - I have just accepted they don't run and planned accordingly.

However I took a wander down to Teignmouth station and was there about 10 minutes.  During that time I was asked by four people on the platform when the next train was (and another tried to use the help point).  None had luggage so I suspect most were looking to make day trips - perhaps to the sales in Exeter or Plymouth.  One had even paid for a car park ticket before discovering there was no service.  Another was a family who were thinking of going to Paignton.

While I accept there is the ability to do major engineering work more easily during the 48 hour closure there does seem to be a demand for short distance travel.  Agreed this year it would have been more difficult because of the weather related problems but as we seem to be becoming an ever more 24 hour a day society perhaps it is time to revisit the Christmas shutdown.  I accept it means more railway staff would need to work but I suspect some may actually want to and there would be sufficient numbers to run a skeleton service of local services.

There might even be a demand for longer distance travel on some key routes in connection with sporting events.  These are planned some time in advance so services could be drawn up to cater for them.

Some things I picked up ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/christmashours.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/christmasbus.jpg)


Times are, indeed, changing.  My gut feeling is that services could be well used, and from a passenger perspective this would be the day of the year when more newcomers to rail tried it out than on any other day.  Grandma and Grandad taking the family into Bristol ... the excitement of a first train ride followed by a trip round the sales, and the train home again.  But I would want to see it being done with everyone in the rail industry being fully in support as to how it's done, and I think that may be a hurdle too high.   In the meantime, you see four groups in just 10 minutes at quite a small station being turned away.

As they did in 2009. And 2010. And 2011. And again this year.

From First Great Western JourneyCheck:


 ::)

Wolmar has joined in the argument:

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2012/12/time-to-run-trains-on-boxing-day/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feed%2Fchristianwolmar+%28Christian+Wolmar%29 (http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2012/12/time-to-run-trains-on-boxing-day/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feed%2Fchristianwolmar+%28Christian+Wolmar%29)

I'm firmly in the 'pro' camp for Boxing Day trains. But I think if fine to continue with having no service on Christmas Day.

In the past I've said that I'd like the option to escape home from the family on Boxing day afternoon/evening. This year it would have been even more ideal as I am working a night shift on the 27th and I'm left with the only option of travelling home in the morning and likely not getting enough sleep as a consequence. Would much have preferred to travel home Boxing Day evening.

There is a very vocal core of rail staff in all grades who want to keep their guaranteed two consecutive days off over Christmas and I understand that. However, if there are sufficient staff willing to work, who could provide perhaps at most a Sunday service on Boxing Day, then I think the TOCs and Network Rail should consider a trial one year to see if there is a market for services on the 26th December.

Sticking point as ever will be the unions and how the Boxing Day staff are remunerated.

Would there be sufficient demand to make it worth while for the TOC's also NR have some huge blockages over Christmas and Boxing Days and get a lot done in those 54 hours, indeed there are some things that we can only do over those 2 days as they are too invasive and have a high risk

My Dutch friends are talking about removing BD as a public holiday and just adding it to annual leave entitlement.  In fairness, Christmas there is just a religious festival (for those so orientated) and not a period for trying to test whether alcohol producers can keep up with demand.

I am putting myself in the yes camp for there being some services on certain routes on boxing day.


What we really need is for some TOC's to bit the bullet and trial a limited service on some routes.

An idea might be for a say an hourly Bristol TM - Swindon - London Paddington along with a limted Swansea - London paddington service.

Oxford - London paddington I suspect would be one route which would do well with an hourly service perhaps using  the class 166's or class 180's unless it become obvious that  hst's will be required because of teh demand.

Cardiff - Bristol TM - Bath and Weston Super Mare - Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway (perhaps an extension to Gloucester) I think would be well used with an hourly service.

Crosscountry I suspect would do well  along certain parts of their routes such as between Derby - Birmingham - Bristol - Plymouth generally I think an hourly service would be enough while we see what the response from the public is.

If demand is good then more services could be planned for the next boxing day providing there is enough staff to allow this to happen.

I think London Overground would do particulary well running services on boxing day especially to Stratford and on the west London line

That said we would have to make sure the fact that there are some limited services on boxing day is promoted widely since we dont want to run trins carrying fresh air because passengers dont know the trains are running.

I think it would be good to have Boxing day trains, personally, I'm not that bothered, but I know some people are.

What irritates me is the absolute failure by First Great Western and some other operators to provide clear, concise information.

The attachment shows the GW page, which no where clearly states closure on the 25/26, a saturday timetable 27/28th etc. It's just not good enough - on Twitter there were a fair few people tweeting "Can I get X train tomorrow"... Clearly passengers are confused which means they've failed.

Seeing as that page is to do with how busy services are it makes sense there isn't timetable info.

Why would it when already have alterations that provides pdf's each week?

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/~/media/PDF/Planned%20Changes/Nov%202012/Week%2039%20Saturday%2022%20December%202012%20until%20Friday%2028%20December%202012_Layout%201.ashx

Front page of FGW site to say: "Trains over Christmas"
Until 23rd December - normal service
24th December - Weekday services, some routes finishing early
25th December - NO SERVICE
26th December - NO SERVICE
27th December - Modified Saturday service
etc

Ollie, those change sheets are VERY useful ... but what's the criteria for inclusion?  As far as I can gather, TransWilts services (I looked up Melksham to Swindon) will be running as follows:

Melksham to Swindon

08:00 -> 08:31 (Not Thursday?)
18:17 -> 18:41

Swindon to Melksham

08:35 -> 09:01
18:44 -> 19:11

and that's only one of the four trains in its normal slot.    The printed timetable / standard .pdfs don't contain these, the update .pdf you pointed at doesn't - the only way I could work the out was by doing ticket / timetable searches.   Actually the times are rather nice, but if they're hidden away, no-ones going to know about them.

Boxing Day is not a religious holiday, the origin is a holiday for the workers and servants it was where the "Lords and Masters" gave there servants "boxes" with gifts in this could be money, food, clothing the servants had their Christmas Day the after Christmas

There should be a Boxing Day service no question - other public services are expected to operate so why should the railways be any different?

If it's down to outdated agreements with Trade Unions from the 1970s then renegotiate them and/or tear them up.......then again that may lead to the ASLEF London Underground solution to not wanting to work on Boxing Day ie going on strike every year!  :D

The current contracts of employment for the vast majority of Railway employees are modern driven through by the privatisation process of the "enlighten" 1990's.   There are too many companies involved now to get a uniformed approach to this, while one company may get an agreement another may not, so you could see Xcountry trains running but not stopping at Reading because FGW are not working.

D(a)fT will have to change franchise contracts, in many cases the TOC's will have to sign up to a new access agreement with NR and finally you would have to get the employees to agree to work Boxing Day which for those working that day would mean no alcoholic drinks Christmas Day, they would have to turn into work at 04:00 Boxing Day to get a service running for 07:00 unless of course everyone accepts first trains at 10:00.

One aspect people have forgotten particularly on the eastern end of the line is there is major crossrail engineering work scheduled every christmas for the next couple of years, so thats likely to mean there will be no service in the next couple of years. This year for example theres been resignalling in the acton area and there are other major projects in the pipeline.

Also as crossrail is going to be a new company i wouldn't be surprised if they included christmas day and boxing day in staff contracts much the same way heathrow express do now.

I can foresee this being a significant problem though, because surely a significant majority of Crossrail staff will be TUPE'd across into the new 'TOC'.  Greater Anglia have already been required by their current franchise agreement to set up a completely separate and discrete 'business unit' for their Liverpool St - Shenfield service, including all relevant backroom staff as well as the drivers, because they are all to be transferred into Crossrail lock stock and barrel. All this has to happen within a year or two, but well before the new stock arrives, so I'd think those people will all expect to keep their current T&Cs?

The current railway seems to have more than a few areas where merged staff are on separate T&Cs depending on where they came from; doesn't Northern still get managed effectively as two sub-TOCs, for east and west of the Pennines, and harmonisation was abandoned some time ago?

Paul

Was actually thinking more in terms of the heathrow drivers that move over as crossrail will be taking over the current connect services, these drivers are already contracted to work christmas day and boxing day and would in time be joined by new entrants to the industry.

Yes its not a perfect solution having staff on different contracts but if managed correctly its workable.

Look Ollie - see what I see on the first page of your website. This is what every user sees when they visit your website. Where the flying **** do you think they might chose to look for service information over Christmas? Maybe, just maybe the link that says "Plan your Christmas Travel Early".

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8kHJ9lLcCDY/UNx75PYPIiI/AAAAAAAADkk/7Bw_fRb9LXc/h120/Screen+Shot+2012-12-27+at+16.35.01.png)

That then takes them to a page which information on it that is clearly misleading to most users:

FGW have failed to provide any clear information on this. I shouldn't have to root through media centre releases from November to find this information should I.

I can see where you are coming from Graham.

I'm not sure about the pdf inclusion. I will ask the guy who does them.

Thanks, Ollie.  ;)

Big and clever getting sweary over a timetable is it?

Gentlemen, please: I'd already indicated that I was taking a particular interest in this topic, by posting in it. ;)

I think there must be some services boxing day, Many retailers were reporting record sales on boxing day, next were open at 5am on boxing day, even in Cornwall where nothing happens!

Boxing Day sees many thousands of leisure travellers heading to football games, sales (if you call that leisure), theatres and the like, as well as the people who work at these places. Good reason to run services, then. But local authorities normally relax parking restrictions, and these are not the normal commuting journey, so time is less of the essence to anyone going out. And National Rail see this, and Easter and other Bank Holidays, as a good time for those huge infrastructure jobs that make the difference through the rest of the year. I can't anything changing in that last aspect.

It has been pointed out in the thread about people who work on the permanent (or as Bignosemac called it "Semi-permanent!) way that signal boxes are manned, and the railway is in truth open, albeit without passenger trains. But to run passenger services on the parts unaffected by engineering work would need many more employees than just those driving trains - customer service, ancillary station staff, maintenance staff to name a few. Unions would want premium rates of pay. We would end up with an expensive service over an incomplete network with uncertain and unpredictable passenger numbers. At the pragmatic level, it would not add up.

Unless we all went to work on Boxing Day too, which I don't want.

I am inclined to agree

Sadly, I can see this happening in the near future.  Capitalism has taken over Christmas and now people want to shop shop shop!  The need is pretty clear in London, and as London and the South East is massively multi-culutural, a lot of staff of the TOCs there don't celebrate Christmas and I guess would be more than willing to work? 
Out in the sticks is less warranted.  Take somewhere like Taunton for instance, Boxing Day would see very little footfall and FGW would need to have Dispatch, Passenger Assistance, Gateline, Booking Office staff all on and being paid enhanced rates.  Can't see it being worth it.

The argument for a Boxing Day service is compelling...it would be more productive to look for ways in which it could be made to work, rather than for reasons why it can't...every other sector, from hospitals to airports to retail to restaurants seem to manage OK on Boxing Day and staff are expected to work, why should the railways be any different...it should work  according to the demand and for the benefit of the customers it serves...the only viable reason for not doing it I can see is the facility for large scale engineering work which the Xmas window provides...some of the arguments put forward against it ie "I wouldn't be able to drink on Christmas Day if I had to work on Boxing Day" are frankly laughable, and reflect the old style public sector culture of organisations being run for the benefit of those they employ rather than those they serve....I wonder what the guys holding the line in Afghanistan would think of that excuse, and I don't think they get double/treble time and extra days off?

In response to TaplowGreen, if a contract states bank holidays then that will cover Boxing Day. Legally the only days in a calendar you can refuse to work is Christmas day and Easter Sunday, and to opt out of these you need to provide your refusal in writing at the start of employment with the company I believe.

Not quite true Bank are not expected to be open, a whole rift of customer services departments, local authority offices, Government Departments are not expected to be open, most (large) Constructions site are shut down, lets take the easy option remove its status as Bank / Public Holiday and declare it a normal working day

The Bank Holidays Act 1871 Gives Easter Monday, Whit Monday, First Monday in August and St Stephens Day (Boxing Day I believe???) as being the only bank holidays in law. Good Friday and Christmas day are Public Holidays and dont have the legal standing as a bank holiday and an employment contract quoting bank holidays does not legally cover these public holiday days.

Small pedantic point. It is now the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971. The Bank Holidays Act 1871 was repealed at the time of the introduction of the new Act.

In addition to Easter Monday, last Monday in May, last Monday in August and 26th December*, two additional dates are routinely also Bank Holidays in law. These are New Year's Day** and the first Monday in May. They are giving legal status as Bank Holidays on a yearly basis by Royal Proclamation as allowed for in the 1971 legislation.

*Or 27th/28th if 26th falls on a Saturday/Sunday.
**Or the following Monday if 1st January falls on a Saturday or Sunday.

The point richwarwicker made about the public holidays of Good Friday and Christmas Day is correct. Read that employment contract carefully!

There is no automatic right in law to have a Bank Holiday off work, nor is there any right to enhanced payment. It is purely down to the terms within an employment contract.

*Runs off to check employment contract*

Phew.  Had me worried then for a minute!

Interesting: I always thought the August bank holiday is the last Monday in August.  ???

See https://www.gov.uk/bank-holidays  ;)

That's correct Chris. I made the same mistake as richwarwicker. Or rather copied his.  :-[

I've edited my post.

It was the first monday in August until 1965 when it moved to the last monday in August.

...and just to confuse things it is still the first Monday in Scotland...although most branches of the English banks north of the border tend to open that day but close on the last Monday. 

I'm not sure why this has turned into a debate about Bank opening hours, but the Banks, unlike FGW, do provide a service on a 24/7/365 basis via ATMs, online Banking etc........I can't really see anyone wanting to negotiate a mortgage on Boxing Day, however I DO see a lot of people who want to travel on Boxing Day, so to return to the point......why are there no trains on Boxing Day when demand clearly exists (notwithstanding engineering works)???

Cheers

I think it's fair to sum it up as follows:

1)  It would be a lot of effort for the TOCs to set up.  You would need lots of staff who currently have agreements that mean they are guaranteed Boxing Day off of work, and those agreements would need altering.
2)  It would cost the TOCs money to do.  The number of people travelling, whilst potentially quite high, would not be enough to make it profitable on the vast majority of routes, given that you would be paying inflated staff costs and not be running as many trains as on a 'normal' day.
3)  The engineering work situation would make it difficult on some routes - especially here on the Great Western where it is very likely that most Christmas periods from now until the end of the decade will involve quite extensive work with Crossrail/Reading/Electrification.

As I've said before, as a member of staff who might be affected, I can't see any reason why a Boxing Day service shouldn't be at least trialled, but there are an awful lot of staff that don't have the same opinion!  The only way I can see it happening on a widespread level is if it is written into the terms of franchise agreements when they are let.  That way it would be costed and losses could be justified under a 'social need' basis like other aspects of the franchise agreement are based.  My submission to the GWML franchise said as much - although I said that it should probably wait until the upgrade of the GWML is finished to give plenty of time to get staff agreements altered and increase the likelihood that large numbers of buses wouldn't be needed.  Doesn't seem that anyone wanted to take that idea on board though!

The problem now is that something that was, was taken away.   Things are more difficult to re-instate than to remove.

How true Phile.  Nearly all the 'improvements' planned for 2014 to 2019 (except the wiring) are re-instatements. 

I am not absolutely convinced the demand is there, if it was the TOCs would run trains

I am convinced the demand is there. But I think the cost of operation that the TOCs would have to bear is currently prohibitive. With the major cost being staffing. In such a heavily unionised industry it is going to be difficult to negotiate Boxing Day pay to a level that would suit both employer and employee.

I too believe the demand is there but as well as the problems with getting staffing I am not sure the TOCs are likely to favour it at the moment, if it means engineering work spread over longer periods at other times.  It might even mean fewer trains at other times.  At the moment a number of late evening services are set down only because at times of rail replacement it saves running a bus to a station if no-one on boards wants it.  Other services might join the list if there are frequent line closures.

I fully appreciate the Engineering situation but I get heartily sick about people hiding behind outdated Trade Union agreements which were negotiated in a different age.....it is no longer 1973, and in common with most other staff in public or quasi public sector organisations they would no doubt be well rewarded for working on Boxing Day....like most others who are more used to living in the real world of the private sector, we often have to work on these days for very little additional reward, not double/triple pay with extra leave....and it really gets my goat when I hear people bleating that if they had to work on Boxing Day then they wouldn't be able to get drunk on Christmas Day...as if that was any sort of reason not to offer a service...why is it always primarily the interests of staff, rather than customers, that make the difference? The London Underground staff philosophy is exactly the same, evidenced by strikes on the last 3 Boxing Days.

I do not work on the railways, but I understand that the rules on alcohol and working on the railways are rather more strict that any other line of work I am aware of. Those closer to the industry may be able to give more details.

.....I am sure they are very strict and rightly so, same as airline staff etc...so basically the sensible thing to do would be not to drink if/when one's work doesn't permit it? So if someone had to work on Boxing Day, don't get plastered on Christmas Day.....simples? 

Not sure how they compare to the airline industry, of which I have no experience, but railway drug and alcohol policies for staff are *extremely* strict. So you're right in that staff can't have much to drink the day/evening before they're on duty, although as far as I'm aware this isn't a particular argument for the lack of train services on 25/26 Dec (services run relatively normally on 1 Jan, after all).

Interestingly, I have never heard a news story about a train driver or other member of staff being removed from duty for obvious drunkenness, but such incidents do seem to crop up periodically with airline flight crew.

It does and I have removed "staff" off of railway premisses into the safe custody of a D & A test agent, I have seen "staff" fail the spot checks. It's just no fuss is made about it.

I would be very worried indeed about anyone who felt the need to get "happy" on his / her days off over Christmas to the extent that it was a serious concern as to whether they would be sober on their next shift.  Surely there are plenty of other shift breaks during the year if they want to drink occasionally. I have to start asking questions about someone who's really that determined that he/she should drink over Christmas - have they a dependency / are they too weakwilled to say to familiy "no, I have to look after the lives of hundreds of people tomorrow", and if either answer is "yes", should they really be in that position?

Quite right Grahame - almost all industries with safety considerations specify restrictions on the consumption of alcohol prior too (and during!) working hours.

The decision on running Boxing Day services should be demand led, the only legitimate reason for restricting it would be engineering works, but you would be surprised (or maybe not surprised) at the amount of rail staff (especially on the UK Rail forum) who beat their chests and take the position along the lines of "my contract/union say I don't have to do it and/or I'm not giving up my Christmas beer"

Others accept the need for their own Businesses/services to offer a service on Boxing Day, rail staff should be no different....or they should seek alternative employment...times change and people have to change with them....it comes down to providing a customer focussed service from top to bottom, the concept of and need for the railways and some of their employees seem to struggle with.

I have seen staff putting all sorts of "moaning" regarding any possibility of them working Boxing Day in the future on another forum. I am going to place my thoughts on that matter here. It caused contraversy to some staff on another forum, and the post was deleted by moderators, unjustifiably I believe. Personally I see it as a fact of life.

If you are working in a service industry, you must be willing to work when the customers require the service. If the customers require service on boxing day, you must be prepared to work. If you arent willing to work when a service is required then you shouldnt be in a service based industry.

I worked in a business where customers wanted service on boxing day between 2004 and 2010, we were expected to work if scheduled. The business had calculated due to reduced opening hours, and projected sales 50% of staff could have boxing day as holiday, on a first come first served request basis. Anyone declined one year, would get priority the following year.
The holiday day if taken didnt come off your annual holiday allowance and those who worked had an extra day added to their allowance for the following year, as well as time and half pay for working the day. There was always at least 50% willing to work, such as those without families, those living away from families and not going home for christmas for whatever reason.
After we started doing Boxing Days, new starters contracts had boxing day working as a requirement within their terms of employment, but could still request as holiday.

Does anyone in the industry (or outside for that matter) know how well the half hourly Southeastern Highspeed Boxing Day service between Ashford and St Pancras went? Southeastern website has remained quiet on the subject. It was being marketed at those looking to go shopping at Ashford designer outlet, Westfield and London by using the park and ride service from Ebbsfleet quarry.

Staff seem to be getting a raw rep here.. I think if they asked for volunteers, and paid the premium, there would be enough willing to run a skeleton service - they can get drivers to carry out care-taker duties on the depot on Christmas Day. 

Until a TOC says, we can't run a service because of staffing levels, then I think it's a little unfair to keep throwing the "find another industry" comments at us.

Also, does any heavy maintenance to rolling stock happen during this period, while it's guaranteed to be out of public use?

The overwhelming majority of rail staff are professional enough to moderate alcohol intake in relationship to work demands.  If Boxing Day were to become a rostered duty day, services would be worked as safely and professionally as they are on any other day. 

Operational staff are used to working unsociable hours and in all weather conditions. Yes it is well paid, yes the unions have negotiated a good working environment and yes, we do live in the real world.  As many other forms of transport in that real world charge a premium for operating on such festive occasions, presumably TaplowGreen would not mind shelling out enhanced fares to cover the no doubt, scandalously high additional payments to us refugees from 1973.

Glad to hear it!

.....and I've no doubt that FGW would take the opportunity to maximise ticket income were such a service to be introduced!!!

#


Taxis and buses were charging double fare when operating near me on Boxing day, and I would fully support any train operating to charge double also

If it was 1973 there would still be a Boxing Day train service.

When services were first withdrawn in 1975, ASLEF protested against the decision. Ray Buckton stated that it may be good personally for his members, but a bad move for passengers who attended sporting occasions or visited relatives. With the absence of the mention of shopping these seem to be the same points still being made for a Boxing Day service.

The claimed saving was ^130k.

They were back though in 1977, when Boxing Day fell on a Monday, and withdrawn in 1980 when it was a Friday again. They didn't reappear until 1988, and then only in limited form.

I think that part of the problem is that the railway take a much stricter view of "sober" than most other industries.
If a railway worker took a modest amount of drink on Christmas day and was required to work on Boxing day, they not only must be "sober" by common sense standards, but must be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that they can pass a railway alcohol test which is much stricter than that for driving a car.
A taxi driver must only be able to pass the usual test administered by the police, a rail worker must AFAIK have no detectable alcholol in their system.

Network Rail's alcohol limit for its staff (ALL staff - safety critical or not) is:

13^g of alcohol per 100ml of breath; or
29mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood; or
39mg of alcohol per 100ml of urine.

These are the same limits as proscribed in the Transport and Works Act 1992 for staff working in a safety critical role.

I believe these limits are the same for TOC/FOC employees although company wide policy and therefore contractual terms may allow for lower limits and for the limits to apply to all staff whether safety critical or not. My brief time with FGW through an agency (non-safety critical) had the TWA 1992 limits and I was tested prior to employment being offered.

These limits usually equate to just 1.5 units of alcohol. That is one 125ml glass of wine at 12% abv. Half a pint of beer/lager/cider at 5% abv or one 35ml measure of spirits at 37.5-40% abv.

For comparison the limits for driving on the road are:

35^g of alcohol in 100ml of breath; or
80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood; or
107mg of alcohol per 100ml of urine.

Thanks Didcot dean that's very interesting....sorry to see we've gone backwards over the last 40 years though....and fascinating that someone like Ray Buckton was putting the interests of the public over his members...not something he was renowned for as I remember!!!

To fly an aeroplane either private or commercial, the limit is 20mg per 100ml of blood. "24 hours from bottle to throttle". Incidentally, at least one forum member (me) stayed stone cold sober on 25/12. Mrs FTN has one of those jobs that means occasional holiday work, and needed a lift home at 22.30. I'm not risking my licence on the hope I would get away with it. Party time had to wait for Boxing Day. No problem,

Good to see Chiltern are trialling a Boxing Day service this year on their Bicester North to Marylebone route:

http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/more-news/chiltern-railways-to-trial-boxing-day-trains-1-5586540 (http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/more-news/chiltern-railways-to-trial-boxing-day-trains-1-5586540)

They join some of the other South East based TOC's which have run them for several years.  Running them from Bicester to Marylebone only means keeping the one signalling centre open, so that is the reason for not running them up to Banbury I presume?  Details don't appear in the online search engines yet.

Hopefully we will soon see the tipping balance where the majority of operators are required/want to operate a Boxing Day service as there are several reasons why they should.  I am saying that as a member of staff who might well be required to work as well!

Perhaps the new 'proper' Greater Western franchise after the current two temporary extensions will include a requirement to do so?

Good on Chiltern for having a go at such a service. If it does proove to be sucessful then perhaps there could in theory be some services at least on boxing day on parts of the GW network.

One route sprinsg to mind and that is between London Paddington - Reading - Oxford. The main problems however will be the upgrade work including electrification of the GW network until at least 2018 so I doubt we will see any boxing day services on the GW network for a while, unless of course  reources are available and there is no engineering work going on.

From RailFuture - via http://www.railfuture.org.uk/article1531-Boxing-Day-trains


We get a number of interesting phone calls for transport help on the CRP phone line - and if I'm taking those calls I try to help people as best I can, while warning them that I'm just a volunteer for the railway line.   A gentleman today looking for how to get someone from London (Heathrow) to Chippenham for midday; he reported that the National Express site was giving him problems - disappointed when I confirmed no trains, but very thankful to also know to look at Megabus, and to be given a phone number for National Express.   That will be an expensive way to book, but what a fragmented system of "a to b" we have.  Just glad he wasn't looking to get the person to Melksham, Trowbridge or Westbury!

I remain of the opinion that, come the end of the major electrification and Crossrail work, that any newly let franchise should include a Boxing Day service on the major FGW routes.  Centralisation of much of the signalling into the Thames Valley Signalling Centre should also help that to become possible.  It will not be profitable, but then many services aren't, and it will be socially important and will also help to reduce a little the utter swamping of trains that occurs on the 27th December, especially when that falls on a Sunday or Monday.

Chance would, of course, be a fine thing.  Around here there are three bus timetables
- Monday to Friday
- Saturday
- Sunday and Bank Holidays except Christmas Day, Boxing Day, New Year's Day
and three days in the year when not a bus wheel turns (the absence of a timetable)

A handful of First bus routes (they're the ones I know about) operate in the Bristol / Bath area, but little villages like Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge and Westbury have no public transport, save the odd National Express or Megabus coach.  I'm aware of the arguments about costs, engineering, giving staff the day off, making a loss, etc ... but what a wonderful marketing gift it seems to be to the "private car" lobby - a day when people want to go to sports matches, sales, and to visit friends and family, and they're shown how it can all work without public transport.

Stay at home for me, our local bus operator doesn't run boxing day (barely any Sunday or Bank Holiday services the rest of the year either, only a handful of routes are funded to run on Sundays and then only in the summer holiday period (and they aren't the 'mainline' bus routes either)). They are running Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve though, except one route finishes earlier in the evening than normal.

I don't think enough staff want to work...and its completely unfair IMO to force anyone to over Christmas. New Year is another matter.

On the rails, the staff you'd need to safely run even an hourly service is enormous...you'd never get enough volunteers. Secondly, I suspect demand on Boxing Day would probably be peak levels, or possibly even higher than that - operators,justly I think, worry that they couldn't physically carry everyone wanting to travel

Agreed - demand on Boxing Day would be extremely high with people wanting to return after Christmas, attend sporting events, sales etc, which surely is the argument for providing a service?............sorry though I don't accept that it's "unfair" to "force" people to work over Christmas, if you choose to work in a sector that provides a service to the public, you must accept that part of that is providing the service when its required, there are plenty of people in my Business who don't want to work over Christmas but they realise that the service has to be maintained so they get on with it, and I don't see rail operators normally fretting about running overcrowded services every day of the year?

You're assuming the public want to escape their family but the staff don't?  ;D ;D ;)

Not enough of them, methinks

I'm going to make one further post before I leave this thread, as it'll just turn into the same public V staff arguments that arise every single year when this is bought up.

A change of contract will need to be agreed with the unions as it's in black and white, we don't have to work 25th/26th.  A voluntary agreement could be put in to trial Boxing Day, but then you are attempting to run a service at the mercy of staff goodwill.  I wouldn't put money on there being enough goodwill at the moment.

I totally agree with II, that nothing is going to change in the next 5 years at least.  

Whether you like it or not, the staff hold the winning card at the moment, if the boot was on the other foot, no business would make a concession, so don't expect the staff to.

We have families too, and to many many staff, no amount of money is going to get us in, because life is too short and sometimes you just want to be with your loved ones.

While I agree a service is needed, that's only because society has turned Boxing Day into a ridiculous commercial and sporting event.  How did we ever cope with sales starting on the 27th?  How did we ever cope without Sky Sports?

I've travelled to many countries and it never ceases to amaze me how they survive staying closed on Sundays.  Economies must be falling off a cliff.  Families spending time together, a proper day of the week to rest physically and mentally and be away from the madness and stress of the rest of the week.  I don't think much of human "progress" at times.

Merry Christmas.

If you give a decent incentive then they would.  If they don't then how can you explain that other TOC's can provide a service?


I disagree.  I think there would be a reasonable amount of people wanting to travel, but not an excessive amount.  Enough to make it worthwhile doing on a social basis on the key routes - like some of the other TOC's are doing.
Boxing Day services ran on many routes until fairly recently (even Christmas Day trains used to run).  The main thing stopping it at the moment on the FGW routes is the engineering work and the number of signalboxes - both of which will become easier to manage by the end of the decade.

Anyway, even if the wider Greater Western franchise holder doesn't provide a service, I can certainly see the Crossrail route running on Boxing Day pretty much from the start.

Hmmm...not so sure.

London Overground (the only TfL Rail equivalent currently) is completely shut on Bixing Day this year.

Well, as ever, we'll see.  ;)   The London Overground situation is possibly linked with the many signalboxes that need to be opened to control the various routes?  Even so I'm a little surprised more effort isn't made to run some of their routes.

I don't think it needs to be "Public v Staff", however the need/demand for a Boxing Day service seems to be acknowledged by all so I guess at some stage its a case of Management/Staff/Unions sitting down and working out how to make it happen - money, as always, talks.

Equally I am sure that everyone acknowledges the value of time spent with family, that isn't limited to Rail staff, but times change and contracts change with them, Businesses have to take account of the needs of their customers as well as their staff, but it's hard to think of a major public service that shuts down completely over Christmas in the same way as the railway does, particularly at a time when it's most needed......the clue is in the word "service", and TFL seem to manage to run the Tube OK.

Clearly however with all the engineering going on it probably isn't worth contemplating until it's pretty much all done as Christmas is a heaven sent opportunity to undertake major works (....no doubt those engineers would rather be at home with family too....but I'm sure they're making it worth their while to be there!!!)

I hope you all have a wonderful Xmas, whether you're working or not  :)

I am with Scrooge on this topic make Christmas Day and Boxing day a normal working day bin the Public Holiday concept for everyone; if you want the day off book it as holiday, that make it equal for every one.

Also it has to be remembered employees of TOCs and not public sector they work for a commercial undertaking that provides a service to the public just like banks and shops

Banks are shut......

Does this mean that Scotrail should have services on New Years Day? Or perhaps we could do what they do, limited service Boxing Day and have New Years Day off?

:D

Isn't the reason why they don't run trains in Scotland New Year's Day because most are too hung over to drive/use a train following Hogmanay?  ;)

Banks make a commercial decision that demand for their services over Christmas can be met via ATMs and online factilities - it's really quite simple - FGW (for example) can assess demand for services on Boxing Day, and work out what resources they need to meet that demand - if necessary, if there is concern over massive overcrowding (which seems perfectly acceptable for the rest of the year) make trains pre-booked/reservations only or with only a few unreserved tickets available....based on this, work out staffing, offer generous overtime/TOIL to volunteers, if not enough people  come forward look at who had A/L at the last Bank Holidays or prioritise based on length of service/seniority etc............that is exactly the way (in parallel) my Business operates over Christmas and I am sure most others.......it's amazing what you can achieve when you look for solutions and opportunities rather than just highlighting problems and reasons why things won't/can't work......that's how a Business succeeds, and keeps its customers happy.......if there were ever real competition on the railways, some people would be in for a hell of a shock.

But there woukd be uproar at the fares needed to even simply break even.

That's half the problem. No one would pay a peak (or more) fare, and you'd soon see the 'demand' disappear

I refer the Hon Gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago...........you don't know any of that, you're just making assumptions.....people pay peak/premium fares for differing reasons all the time, whether it's for holidays in Spain during the school holidays, or on popular trains to the Westcountry on Friday afternoons, I don't see demand dropping there, quite the opposite in fact!

That's why you write it into the franchise specification, and adjust the premium payments that the new franchise will give accordingly - one day in 365 isn't going to affect things much.  As I've said many many trains and routes don't operate anywhere near at a profit no matter how busy the trains are anyway - the Boxing Day service would simply be an extension of that socially necessary principle.  Other TOC's manage to do it.

Either that, or you find a sponsor like Chiltern did in the form of Bicester Village who pays to subsidise the losses!

One signal controller is all Chiltern needs, half a dozen-ish drivers and bare minimum staff at Marylebone. Can't see FGW managing on that somehow

Those aren't my assumptions, but those of the industry. Too many staff needed by them to rely on volunteers too.

Biggest problem though, already mentioned, is that NR are likely to close a major artery every year

You do realise that the majority of the larger signalboxes/panelboxes etc. stay open throughout to deal with engineering blockades and trains?  So, The signalling staff will be already there come 2020 when Didcot TVSC controls the route.

So, half a dozen-ish and bare minimum staff at Paddington/Reading/Slough would be all that was needed for a Reading to London shuttle for example.  That would at least be a start.

Suspect slightly more than half a dozenish drivers on that route, even if major stations only...and there would be complaints if not vast majority...thus a lot longer than Chilterns trips to Bicester

I'm not convinced about the need to offer services to get people to the sales, sporting events, etc, as those are things that people do by choice. Where I think the railway could usefully offer a service is to get those people home who only have a limited window to visit family and need to be back at work on the 27th (especially when that is a weekday).

So for me, a service starting mid afternoon and offering a skeleton service on some of the longer distance routes would be a service that met a greater social need. Lets say 3 of 4 trains each way from London to each of Bristol and Swansea as a starter.  By starting it mid afternoon, day trippers would not swamp the services. And the staffing required should be relatively manageable, particularly if the shifts didn't start until after lunchtime. If there was a concern about overcrowding then perhaps they could be made reservation only for the first year, until demand become clear.

Obviously engineering work still remains an issue on the Great Western currently, but the principle would be the same for other lines too.

ChrisB, why happy with Chiltern on Boxing Day, but not other TOCs doing the same as ScotRail, TSGN (Southern, Gatwick Express), Southeastern (HS1), AGA (Stansted Express) who are all running a limited train service?

Why are you suggesting there are all these insurmountable hurdles in the way of FGW doing similar?

A lot longer?

Bicester to London Marylebone on Boxing Day = 66 minutes
Reading to London Paddington calling at vast majority of stations (22:17 this evening) = 62 minutes

In my view, not running trains on Boxing Day is like picking a Sunday in February, cancelling the entire train service and not providing replacement buses.

Through fares and taxes, we all pay a lot for the railways  (and most are happy to do so) - closing the railways on Boxing Day and not giving people without a car the chance to travel that day is an anachronism that has to end.

The fact I can't get to Brentford v Ipswich and am very annoyed about this is beside the point.......

I see your point to an extent.  However coach services still run on Boxing Day so we are not entirely without public transport. 

I don't know but I suspect when the boxing day closure started there were substantially fewer passengers than on  random Sunday in February.  More like a Sunday without the evening rush. Although things have changed a bit since then I am not sure it would make a huge difference in most areas.

Set against any benefit to a few would be the further pressure on engineering possessions and the difficulty in getting staff to volunteer. 

......I've got to try to get from Reading to Newport to watch the mighty Plymouth Argyle! :D

You have my sympathy.  :D

For the journey or to watch Argyle?  :D

Given the amount of engineering that happens during the "shutdown", I wonder how the public would feel being further disrupted through the year if engineering has to be done over several disrupted weekends, rather than getting it done in one period of 48 hours?

Reading to Newport is possible - see attachment ... not sure how many fans will be able to get on though.  On the other hand, Reading's not going to be the main starting points for Plymouth or Newport fans, is it?

Closing down almost the entire rural bus network one day in every 7 and leaving pepole without a car stranded isn't too great either. To be honest, given the choice of introducing Boxing Day services or making every bus route have a decent Sunday service in addition to weekdays and Saturdays I would say the Sunday service is more important to have. Some rail lines, including my nearest (Fishguard), also have little or no Sunday service.

They could run 'rail replacement' road transport on Boxing Day and still have the engineering time without making pepole car dependant if they need to travel that day (I'm assuming the TOCs not listed as providing a Boxing Day rail service don't current run anything, either on road or rail). And presumably they can't be working on the entire network at once, so trains would still be able to run where work isn't talking place.

Blimey - ^70 for the privilege of a 4 hour coach journey if you want to get there before noon!

Even a random date in February and the cheapest you can get is on National Express is ^48.50 as opposed to ^15 by train arriving at the same time - and that involves departing almost 3 hours later!

Somehow I guessed that just posting up a list of where in the UK trains would be running on Boxing Day, which I did just 40 hours ago, would lead to a fascinating discussion with strongly held views which don't all match up with each other.

Being just one day in the year, it gets great coverage in the second half of December, and generates close to zero interest of the other 23/24ths of the year, so I guess it's not going to be high up anyone's list.

A couple of answers / thoughts based on recent comment


I think that's a hypothetical choice - no tradeoff between the two things.


Christmas and New Year is - undoubtedly - a sensible time to do major engineering stuff, but I'll admit to always having been puzzled as to where all the extra engineers come from to work on almost every line.

---

And also ...

I note comment about what the fares would be / whether it would be "profitable".  To a degree, that's a question of "mess on mess" ... the current peak / off peak designations are arcane at times, and counter-obvious.   The 06:12 from Swindon to Chippenham during the week is a peak service, with around 20% loading - yet the 14:50 from Chippenham to Swindon on a Sunday is super-offpeak, and with loading around 120%. Does it need someone with guts who's not answerable to / working for an elected politician with a 5 year term to sort out things like this?

The railways have bee structured to provide competition between providers of train services, right?  ;D    So - over the years, Boxing Day services on a strategic network to provide major coverage, with the network changing on where the major works are needed.    As an example for this year, Euston / West Coast main line is closed, Reading is closed (except that Real Time Trains shows ECS on Christmas day to / from Wimbledon and Staines!).  So could ... main line services / regular operator could run Marylebone to Birmingham, Waterloo to Exeter and Bristol via Salisbury.  Another year when there's work on the Basingstoke flyover, a different pattern.   Ironically, by having such a controlled works / shutdown there would be less pressure on just two days of work, and perhaps a chance to get more done over 3 or 4 days.

I'm noting the argument that almost all of the traffic on Boxing day would be leisure and thus (!) not so important. I've noted a surprising number of people using the train around here to get to work in Sundays, indeed often in those places others go for leisure, or in the caring industry or medical, and I would ask why those who say that Boxing day would be "virtually all leisure" see it as being different to Sundays.

Also noting that "everyone who wants Christmas off should be allowed it".  Whilst that's actually our policy (I look after a 365 day business), I'm not so sure that too many people would be happy for A&E to shut for a day or two so that the team there could all spend the day with family.  The question may be an academic one - we have no problem having sufficient cover over this period, though I will admit to a willingness to take shifts myself which due to our small size significantly skews availability.

I've no answers here - just thoughts and can appreciate all sides of the arguments.   I don't expect anything will greatly change quickly, as it's just the one day or two and come January it will be all forgotten about for another 11 months, after which we'll have the same discussion again.   I'm not discouraging that discussion, just discouraged that not much will change!

I'm not trying to be purposely difficult, but where are we finding a nationwide fleet of rail replacement coaches to do this for one day a year?  We're not talking one engineering possession here.

!!!! Just how many possessions are there at once on Boxing Day?

No one likes rail replacement anyhow!

The NHS saves lives. The railway simply moves pax about. Not a sendible comparison?

Probably not a very good comparison, Chris ... I was following up earlier in answer to your post in which you lumped everyone who works together:

We are a *rail* or at least a Oublic transport forum. Thus I think it's reasonable to suggest that referring to *everyone* on this board, unless stated otherwise, refers to everyone working within those industries, not everyone on the country/world

That does surprise me. I would have expected the fares to be the reverse so that coach was cheaper. Very odd. :o

From the Bristol Post (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/trains-Bristol-Boxing-Day/story-25760720-detail/story.html):


Purely out of idle curiosity on my part: why is there no similar 'outrage' over the absence of train services on Christmas Day?  :P

I honestly don't know, but the Whiteball Tunnel possession between Exeter and Tiverton saw buses provided from Cornwall and Somerset and not just Devon.  You only had to see what happened when Dawlish collapsed to see rail replacement stretched to the limit when this possession was going on at the same time.

It may well be feasible, just pointing out why it may not be as simple to get coaches together.  Who knows what small possessions are taking place that require a few hours with a small team of workers, the line is still shut whether you're doing a mass-event like Reading/LTV or replacing a small section of track in Devon.  Yes most TOC staff are having a 2 day holiday, but I think people need to open their eyes to the fact that Network Rail will take advantage and do as much work as possible during the shut-down, so not to cause greater inconvenience during the other 363 days of the year.

If the network was fully open, this would be a much different discussion, but I cannot see (even beyond 2019) how NR will not want the opportunity to close whatever parts of the network it wants to get stuff done, without the pressure of providing the service whether it's buses or trains.  I know many of you will think i'm just anti-customer/anti-service industry, but our network needs the TLC and NR needs the flexibility, and moving customers for football and shopping in my view will not win the argument where NR is concerned.

Thanks for posting, Super Guard, and your comments are pertinent.  I am not railway staff, but I do see what you are explaining.  ;)

I think some of my previous posts have been suggesting the railway industry was anti-customer or anti-service, but on this one I am with you.

Being Christmas, we'll agree to differ on that view, Chris.

My most recent train journey - last Saturday - was on a train from Trowbridge to Melksham late in the morning.  There were around 60 people on that train.  Two of them for sure worked (and were working) in the rail industry, and the rest were passengers who could have worked within just about any field, or were in education, retired, out of work, or indeed too young to be doing any of those things.  As we are a passenger based forum, not an industry professional group (though we welcome those professionals, without whom we would be a sad shadow of what we are), I feel in my own writings that using "everyone" or "anyone" without qualification should refer to the 60 people not to the 2.

Especially as Boxing Day football have taken place for decades, and until very recently (in terms of Boxing Day football), no complaints about lack of trains

I have travelled by train to a Football match on Boxing Day and travelled to and from work on Xmas Day.    If the trains had never been withdrawn on these days nobody would have noticed and just carried on so we wouldn't be having this debate..

The services on Christmas Day and Boxing day were cut out to save money. In neither case was it a clear single decision to stop, more a sequence of events. Christmas Day services were run down over a 5 year or so period in the 1960s. A full service on Boxing Day was cancelled first in 1975 when it was a Friday, and came back when Boxing Day was on a Monday. It wasn't until the mid 1980s, the nadir of the rail passenger usage that a full bank holiday style service was finally abandoned.

Each year the call gets a little louder for a Boxing Day service, the politicians blame each other and the railways get another bashing in the popular press for, on the whole, not providing one.

In my opinion it won't be too long, maybe ten years, before a much more comprehensive service is provided.

indeed ... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11313619/Thousands-of-travellers-stranded-as-Boxing-Day-rail-chaos-bites.html

Once you remove a service, it's more difficult to re-instate

Some exaggeration there from the Telegraph. I very much doubt there will be 1 million travelling to 10 Premier League matches. That'd be 100,000 per match. No Premier League ground has capacity anywhere near that. I suspect they meant that there will be 1 million travelling to all league football games today.

Indeed. A way to go to the 7-day railway, 52 weeks a year ...

..........and how many will be able to travel anywhere by train?

(to be honest I very much doubt its a million travelling to football matches even if you include all 4 leagues, suspect it includes travelling to sales, to see family, heading home for work etc etc)

Probably rather more that we think.  I note the Daily Telegraph mentions the Emirates Stadium, which is served by the Underground - running today, and with out-of-town connecting trains too from Ashford, Brighton and Bicester. As Arsenal are playing Queen's Park Rangers, a significant number of fans may be from within the area that this Boxing Day network covers.

Also noted that FGW are running 4 buses from Reading to Gatwick Airport (according to Real Time Trains) and there are Brighton -> London trains.   Is "via Gatwick" permitted for a Reading to London ticket?

It is indeed fortunate that TfL are responsive to demand and are running a Boxing Day service for those in London as usual.......not much help to anyone else though?..........I think the focus of this discussion is the shortcomings elsewhere?

It's not all about London.

I have read that when in opposition, the Conservative Party were spouting what they would do re re-instating a Boxing Day service but as is usual with politicians forgot about it when they came into power in 2010.

Usual political p***ing match, but at least it raises the profile of the issue;

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/529536c8-8cf6-11e4-9f52-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3N1HmV1Uc

A further complication of boxing day trains is the railway's alcohol policy.  As I understand it the limit is 29 mg/l (driving limit in UK is 80). So rail staff must leave significantly more time after drinking before they can work. So its not just about working on boxing day its about what you can drink on Christmas Day as well.

And if the train operator needs staff to volunteer for Boxing Day working then do they think they would get enough staff to work the service. 


I would be interested when the current alcohol limit came in - was it after the mid 1980's?

If you have to work in a safety critical environment you stay within the limits of alcohol consumption whatever day of the year it happens to be - full stop.....it's 100% the responsibility of the individual concerned.

Are you seriously suggesting that the ability of railway staff to stay within these limits should be a factor in a decision whether or not to run a Boxing Day service?

Of course absolutely!


No - think rather more highly of them than that. What I am saying is that if we want people to work on the railway on boxing day then in order to stay within the limits  we would be denying them the opportunity to do what many people like to do on Christmas Day.  Railway staff are ordinary people like the rest of us. 

Since at the moment (as I understand it) staff are asked to volunteer for bank holiday working, this might limit the number who are prepared to volunteer.

http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/26/poll-was-it-smart-to-close-railway-services-over-christmas-5000136/?

Dozens is about right across the London commuter area.

So how many trains would they require?

I've no idea, Officer Crabtree.  :P ::) ;D

Metro really is the cheapest of the cheapass newspapers, isn't it? (And I say that as a journalist myself...)


So that's "completely"... apart from at least four companies. I believe the usual word for that is "partially".

Network Rail talk of 300 sites over the Christmas Period. That's quite alot

In FGW's case the reduced service was a reduction to....  no trains at all!
They might reasonably call that "completely shut down".

Hmm.  ::)

We've discussed previously on this forum the semantics that anyone who turns up at a railway station on Boxing Day is unlikely to be a 'commuter', in the sense of 'one who travels regularly to and from their workplace'.

Anyone who did turn up at a railway station, only to find there were no train services, has rather limited sympathy from me: it's a public holiday, when many things are closed, so surely it's worth checking whether train services are due to run, before you go to the station?

No trains out of Kings Cross today ... Over running works.

Very few tomorrow too

'twas ever thus, no real surprise it's the same every year............I wish I'd had a bet!

.........and as for FGW

 Cancellations to services between Fareham and Southampton Central

 Alterations to services between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington
Due to over-running engineering works between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington:
Impact:
Train services running to and from these stations may be delayed by up to 45 mins or revised. Disruption is expected until 11:30 27/12.
Customer Advice:
At present we are unable to operate any train service between London Paddington & Greenford or the local service between PLondon Paddington and Hayes & Harlington. First Great Western tickey hiolders may use their tickets on London Underground and / or local TfL bus services in the area.

In addition, long distance services to / from London Paddington are also affected by this problem.

.......(takes breath and stands back to await the onslaught!)  :(

I wouldn't like to be organising the engineering works and getting everything back in place in time.  However, there should be 175 years or experience to build on and one would hope that the startup after the christmas break should be only a little less reliable than a typical morning.

Various other engineering works such as major ones at Whiteball tunnel last year have finished on time, and I keep my fingers crossed for the major engineering in 2015.   Box tunnel will be closed for six weeks - late July to the end of August, with an additional closure for three weeks of the lines from the east into Bath - they overlap, so it's six weeks in total.   However, I now hear "seven weeks" mentioned, I hear that the three weeks for Bath may be four weeks, and I hear that during the "Box tunnel only" time plans for hourly diverted HSTs from Chippenham to Bath (reversing at Bradford Junction) - half the normal frequency (and killing the entire TransWilts local service in the process) are doubtful because of the need for freight paths to be kept available.

No "onslaught", TaplowGreen - a sharing of your concerns.

....as at 1001 (from Journeycheck)

Due to over-running engineering works between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington all lines are closed.

So at present

Closed: King's Cross, Euston, Paddington

Open: Marylebone, St Pancras, Liverpool Street, Fenchurch Street, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, Waterloo, Charing Cross, Victoria

......some consolation I guess for those hoping to travel to Penzance - they can go to Southend instead?

No onslaught from me either.  There is very significant disruption being caused by this latest overrun and it's very very disappointing to see our passengers let down again after the Christmas closure.  With Kings Cross also facing significant disruption I'm expecting big criticism of Network Rail and a select committee appearance from Mark Carne to explain himself!

From the FGW website "Together, First Great Western and Network Rail will build a Greater West for our passengers and the communities we serve" - can't wait! (but not holding breath)  ::)

I think it's fair to expect reliability of the service to dip a bit during the last couple of years and up until the end of the decade as there is so much work going on at the moment.  But what we've seen during 2014 is much worse that I would have expected, and the passengers on the FGW network (and the staff on the front line) deserve better.

The Kings Cross overrun is due to a major S & C (switches & crossing) renewal at Hollow Way Road, the work is on the UP side between (the UP Fast and UP Slow) are on the same side of the permanent way on the ECML north of Copenhagen Tunnel, work involved deep dig, which effected signalling and traction cables to the Down lines; I don't know why they got so far behind although when major track work like this is done unforeseen problems emerge the only recovery plan once all the old track is removed is to keep going if there is a problem.

The plan was to get the Slow's handed back for 09:00 service Saturday morning, the Thameslink OLE work on the Slow lines between Copenhagen and Gasworks Tunnels was completed in time; although some work was cut from the programme on Boxing Day night to ensure Thameslink was ready for energisation and testing of the OLE Saturday morning

....and the Paddington overrun, unannounced until this morning (at least those heading North from Kings X had some warning) - due to utter incompetence from what I am told......what a disgrace.

Source?

Impeccable.

You're unable to verify it then?

Verified by someone very close to the situation, whose details I am not going to share here for obvious reasons.......whether you choose to accept that of course is entirely up to you, but in the context of the overall chaotic situation at Paddington on Saturday I'm sure others will draw their own conclusions.

Ok, well thanks for giving a little more clarification.

Rumours are always rife in situations such as those, so a reliable source of, say, a member of staff in one of the control offices who was liaising with Network Rail (or one from Network Rail liaising with the contractor) would indeed be trustworthy, but I might not be quite so confident in other sources.

Either way, ''utter incompetence" will obviously mean that a clear source of the problem will be evident and as such there will be no excuse for appropriate sanctions not being taken.

I agree.  Often to the person leaning on a shovel by the side of the track or the person with a flag and whistle on a platform i.e. the guys on the ground don't see all the cross company communications at Route level, sometimes information is not cascaded effectively to person leaning on a shovel by the side of the track or the person with a flag and whistle on a platform

Bloke with shovel was not my source, but to paraphrase Electric Train lets just say "information was not cascaded effectively" and leave it at that......it's not a new problem for FGW, but one that is within their control and needs addressing.

I've taken a look at the FGW control log and it runs into several pages listing how the problem developed.  'Utter incompetence 'is probably a little strong, but as the situation developed in the early hours it did appear that several work-around solutions to several outstanding issues with the possessions promised to, and then by, Network Rail simply didn't happen - for a variety of reasons.

That led to several plans and changes of plan being adopted by FGW to try and get the best possible outcome for their passengers.  Because various things were promised I can see how the controllers got pretty exasperated with having to change their plans several times. Not sure that it was a case of FGW not providing the information, more that they were promised things that didn't happen and in the end it looks like they were very wary of trusting anything that was said!

Hopefully a full enquiry (along with the same for the far more disruptive Kings Cross situation) will cause the situation to improve in the future, though on the face of it I think both passengers and staff will believe it when they see it!  A bad Christmas for the integrity and image of the railway industry.

I can understand the arguments either way regarding trains on boxing day, but IMHO, a first step might be to provide a reliable service on the day AFTER boxing day !

Before they can start to think about running services on Boxing Day, TOCs need to sort out the annual 'cancelled due to a lack of train crew' that plagues the network every year between Christmas and New Year. There were some long distance casualties on the FGW network yesterday that would have caused inconvenience and overcrowding on those services that did run.

Difficult....unions would make any form of discipline very hard to implement where it was deemed necessary. Ditto any changes to rest-day working, where as I understand it, staff can easily change their minds without penalty

That's not quite the case.  The precise rules vary from depot to depot, but by and large if you volunteer to work a rest day you can't then withdraw that application after the roster has been published if you've been booked out - usually about 5 days in advance, so there should be no problem in that respect.

Like I said in a previous post, if depots trained their staff on the routes and traction and filled some more of the vacancies that exist there would be little need for rest day working for much of the year and any shortfalls over Christmas and New Year (along with high summer school holidays) wouldn't exist.  At least the vacancy situation should improve over the coming months though as more of the trainee drivers pass out.

But that's what presumably *has* been happening, otherwise these on-tge-day cancellationdms wouldn't be on-the-day, but publicised in advance?

Not necessarily just decide they do not want to work, staff do get sick and there are quite a few bugs around at the moment.

But "do not want to work" within the 5day window, we're told, isn't allowed.

My point is that it does happen though (quite a bit)

No it does't.  As I said, that's not how it works.  If a driver did decide to refuse to come in then there are penalties in the form of ticks against their name - not a perfect system, but it seems to work, as I can't remember the last person who applied for a rest day work, got one, then said they weren't coming in (unless sick).  More ticks mean your less likely to get a rest day work in the future. 

Basically the roster is produced around five days in advance using all available drivers (including those who have applied to work a rest day).  After that the advance planning team attempt to cover any shortages identified through a combination of overtime, bribing drivers to start early/late, taking people off non-essential training etc.  After that any further shortages can be covered by 'cutting and pasting' some of the diagrams that have slack within them.  All of which means it's a very dynamic process until the day in question, and usually everything can be covered by hook or by crook.

Then when all is planned as best it can be, drivers going sick or taken off driving for some other reason can cause really short notice issues which can also lead to cancellations.

So how cone all those Cornwall cancellations we heard about up-thread?

It sounds as those were either known about well in advance & ought to have been broadcast sooner, or there were indeed an awful lot of 'ticks' that day?

The Rest Day ticks of shame are posted regularly company wide on the online roster system.  If this Christmas is like every other Christmas we've had then the number of "5 ticks" drivers will probably be in single digits for the entire company.

As IndustryInsider says there are still backlogs of training throughout the company, and despite recent efforts, I think we're a long way away from having all traincrew fully trained on the routes/traction that is required of their depot.

Masses of St Ives branch cancellations in Cornwall - number of drivers/guards required to go sick/not turn up causing said cancellations = 1.  Clearly they thought running the main line service was preferable and better to cancel the bulk of St Ives branch.

Edit:  The point being that with short trips, many trips are diagrammed to one turn, so a page of 10/15 services cancelled can just be down to 1 member of crew being unavailable.  I know this wasn't the total case in Cornwall with mainline service issues too, but it's not always as grim as journey check will have you believe.

From what I see at certain depots, overtime is available to anyone who wants it, but apart from the tiny minority that would sell their granny for a few hours extra pay, crews are just tired and don't want to do it.  Tired of shifting their start/finish times most days to fix that days crisis, tired of dealing with (justifiably) angry customers everywhere they turn, tired of delays and disruption and then on top of it all, not really feeling like the company values them at all.  Who wants to subject themselves to their day off doing more of that when they don't have to, no matter the financial benefit?

So the liklihood of enough staff wanting to work Boxing Day, even with serious, but publicly acceptable inducements is very unlikely right now, correct?

As I've said, I think you'd get enough volunteers if the right money was paid.  I presume Chiltern had no problems getting volunteers this year, nor the other franchisees who operated trains?

Take the Reading to Paddington shuttle I suggested, where for a stopping service every 30 minutes you'd need less than a dozen drivers.  Consider that all drivers from Oxford, Reading and Paddington LTV depots sign that route and that's a pool of over 300 drivers who'd possibly be eligible.

If it was the same rate as a days overtime (x1.25) you'd be correct.  However, a Boxing Day service in the early days I would expect a higher figure to be offered.

Although, there were some driver "caretaker" shifts available to work 25th/26th December to ensure trains are regularly started and all working ok, prepped and ready for the 27th paid at double time, and I know that in certain depots, not all turns were initially covered by volunteers.

Interestingly, colleagues of mine who used to work at FCC tell of recently getting triple time to work New Years Eve after a certain time of the evening.  There is no enhancement for FGW drivers (or other staff for NY).

On shift patterns, I wouldn't expect very much of an uplift to be paid - except maybe for the trains beyond end of normal service.

Double time definitely for Boxing Day, plus maybe the day off in lieu as well. But unions want even more than that.

Chiltern were sponsored by Bicester Village, at a rate where volunteers were very, very willing & oversubscribed, I heard.

But you'll also need depot drivers, station dispatch staff and maintenance staff but having said that I reckon you could still get enough volunteers though.  Not everyone is married or has family to spend Christmas with.

Indeed, those not of a Christian persuasion too, who don't celebrate Christmas - of which there are many on the railway.

The major problem as I see it is the cost. Most definitely off-peak, although you could remove Advance fares altogether in favour of walk-up fares only which would go some way, but nowhere all the way in meeting this. Negotiations with Unions over the rate of remuneration would be hard. The last I heard was that the demand would be triple pay WITH also a day off in lieu. Frankly, I see no reason for that, and would support the operators in refusing to meet this.

That's sheer greed.............although to be fair in my first ever job I once worked Christmas Day and got triple time + an extra day off (there were no shortage of volunteers!!!)  but we are talking about Boxing Day and double time seems appropriate.........the example of Chiltern/Bicester suggests it would work, in the Thames Valley anyway...........I reckon on the longer distance routes you might need boarding controls/reservations only to cope with the numbers?

I don't see why you would need to involve the unions if was done on a volunteer basis only.  It's then up to the individual wether they chose to accept the terms laid out. Triple time on its own or double time and 2 days off in lieu I'd probably go for that.
Seek volunteers well in advance and once you've got a firm idea on numbers you can plan a service around that.

Joke, right?

Who else is offered that sort of remuneration for Boxing Day? Why do you consider yourself different to anyone else?

Double time & a single day off in lieu is the most I've heard being offered, and I feel is ample. I would back the operator in NOT going any higher, and I think there's the reason Boxing Day trains will not happen.

Glad to see someone else concurs.

Re numbers - on the long distance trains, reservations only - so maybe up the Advance fares to the cheapest walk-on fares available and sell them only as Advances with reservations until each train is full.

I think double time and a day off in lieu would also be a fair deal.  You can't blame the unions for demanding higher, but I think that is what would eventually be settled upon after all the posturing during any negotiations ends - not that many negotiations are necessary when it's done on a volunteer basis, but it would be better to be an official agreement for continuity and reassurance.

I'm just guessing but I expect that collective bargaining agreement means any sort of remuneration, albeit voluntary would need to be agreed on both sides of the fence.

The union is always going to start unreasonably higher in negotiations, as the TOC will no doubt start unreasonably low.

Having said that, wasn't there no LU service on the 26th last year because no agreement could be made?  Goes to show TfL didn't value the public need at the cost the RMT were asking.

Some would say it's greed on the part of retailers to be open on Boxing Day, when not too long ago the 27th was more than sufficient.  Some would say it's greed to offer big discounts the day after kids have opened their presents, rather than before... Welcome to business.

I don't think that's a joke whatsoever, that's the price I place on quality time with my kids, wife and immediate family.  Triple time OR double time and two days off in lieu, for a single man/woman the price they may place on the day might be significantly less, who knows.  I'm not actively demanding that rate.
If I'm volunteering to work an early turn and I'm having to prepare our trains for service I might be starting at 0300 or 0400 in the morning.  To ensure I'm adequately rested with sufficient sleep will impact on my families enjoyment of the day. Again, it may not affect a single man as much.  It's down to the indiviual to the choice that they make.

As for the remuneration of everyone else working on Christmas Day and Boxing Day, I don't concern myself with that.  However, my eldest daughter was offered triple time to work Christmas Day serving Christmas dinners at the local restaurant (she declined).

....and I'm sure you appreciate your great good fortune that you are in a position to be able to make that choice, rather than having to work according to the needs of your employer/customers as most of the rest of us are obliged to..........personally when I've had to work Christmas Day or Boxing Day, we've just arranged to have Christmas lunch /festivities earlier or later, it's really not the end of the World.........I think you'll find many thousands of workers do the same, to maintain the services you and the rest of us rely on.....none of whom value their family time any less than you.

Ultimately I didn't make that choice.  I signed a contract when I commenced employment.  If that contract I signed stipulated I worked Christmas Day/Boxing Day then I would, no issue, no complaints regardless of the rate of payment. 

I agree to have Christmas festivities earlier or later isn't really the end of the world..... unless you have small children. To them, Christmas Day will always be the 25th December and no parent will want to miss that for the sake of a few extra quid.

Personally I would like to see the railways shut completely from 23:59 24 Dec to 04:30 2 Jan each year, we can then go about repairing and installing new bits of railway.

I think a week in August would be better as discussed in another thread - summer hols are a moveable feast unlike Christmas, and if it's notified early enough people can make arrangements accordingly......hols, work from home etc - you haven't got everyone trying to travel at once like you do at Christmas.

I think I'd give you a lot more credit for that perfectly reasonsble point of view if you'd saud you'd never be bought off, even for what you indicated

At Christmas we could have whole network shut down for 8 days 2 of which currently don't have train services.  problem with August that is mid holiday season when the kids are off school so many of the works needed to do the work will want to be in Spain, Florida etc with their families.

I knew what I meant!!!!

Words and being able to successfully put my point across are not my strongest areas.  This is why I'm generally kept out of the way and on my own for large parts of my working day with just a few buttons and levers!!!!!  ;D

As a matter of interest:

In early December, I was invited by my employer to sign a letter in which I agreed that I could work additional hours beyond the Working Time Regulations if I agreed, up to the end of January 2015 - but the hourly rate for any such additional work would be just my normal hourly rate.

That offer was a commercial decision made by the company, apparently.  :-X

Blimey what a champagne lifestyle you railworkers have! No working over Christmas, and exotic holidays every summer! Perhaps you could get together and let the rest of us know when you can fit us in, and we'll work around that!!! ;D

A happy New Year to you all.

I don't know what industry you work in, but like the vast majority of people I did not work on Christmas Day or Boxing Day

You make it sound like the whole of rest of the country was working over Christmas Day and Boxing Day!  It is only a very few essential services like hospitals that are working on Christmas Day and even then with the minimum of staff. Oh and the clergy worked (generally only in the morning).

On Boxing Day you can add some (but not all) of the big retailers. 

My own employer (grocery retail) was closed on Christmas Day (legal requirement) and Boxing Day (commercial decision).  :-X

Said it before, if you want to experience this "champagne lifestyle" come and join us.  I think you'd have your eyes well and truly opened and you'll see that there really is such a thing as a railway family which is why we have this perceived lifestyle, we stick together, we look out for each other both at work and outside of work.  Something you won't experience in many other professions.

You can add a fair proportion of the hospitality business - we (http://www.wellhousemanor.co.uk) are open 365 days a year for example.   In our case, yes, minimum of staff with routine but not day-critical task deferred to other days.

I approve

Cool your jets young man, I wouldn't want you to blow a gasket and have even more trains cancelled due to staff unavailability! The "champagne lifestyle" line was just a joke hence the  ;D, the only part of my post that was serious was a very sincere "Happy New Year" to all, which I repeat here!  :)

Don't forget the organists either.. I did six services between 3pm Christmas Eve and 3pm Christmas Day.. to add to the other 15 playing engagements through December.



Edited to fix quotes. bignosemac

As a volunteer singer who did four services between 3pm Christmas Eve and 11am Christmas Day I am certainly not forgetting organists. 

....and don't forget the Gas/Electric/Water utility workers, Farmers, airline crew/airport staff, Local Authority staff, carers, caterers, civil servants, the military and the civilians who support them, maintenance workers,retail shop and distribution staff, pub/hospitality workers and all those who give up their time voluntarily to help those less fortunate.

So what percentage of employees were in work over Christmas and Boxing Day? I would still guess is was less than 5% even on boxing day?

A recent survey suggested 16% on Christmas Day and 20% on Boxing Day.

I suspect the sample wasn't big enough

Data always trumps opinion, but read it for yourself;

http://www.thinkmoney.co.uk/news-advice/are-you-working-on-christmas-day-nearly-1-in-6-of-us-are-0-4366-0.htm

I am surprised it is that high - but accept the figures.  I see that boxing day sales are one reason for the high number working on Christmas Day.  Is it necessary?

Driven by demand I guess?

Minimum sample size....

With 1/3 Scottish. A) wonder why that was mentioned, b) might slew the national figure. Surely 1/3 of UK residents aten't residing in Scotland?

No it is less then 10%. And Scotland has a much tradition of celebrating New Year rather than Christmas.  Down to the Calvinists in the 16th century. 



Or greed on the part of the retailers - we used to manage not to shop on Boxing day without problems.

In south wales some bus operators have now started trialling bus services on a limited basis on Boxing and new years day.Certainly the Greyhound service between Swansea and Bristol Airport was very busy as well as the  limited bus services around Swansea.

For me Christmas feels like  any other day so if I was asked I would be willing to work as long as I was given at least double time and a day off in leu at least until I have any children in the future

First Kenow asked for volunteers to run a Boxing and New Year service for 2014/2015, but no one volunteered.  No additional day off in lieu offered - it would be a normal working day.
Staff really DO want to have a drink and relax with their family and friends (bearing in mind a drastically reduced blood/alcohol levels for bus drivers in First).
Word later came out that it was anticipated only running a Sunday service on the 18 route (Penzance/Truro).
It is felt that a service of some sort will be in place for 2015/2016

I'm sure the ONS trumps your data.

2.9% worked Christmas Day in 2012.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30595814

I'm extremely grateful to the BBC for this astonishing piece of information:

"The clergy came top of the list of occupations most likely to be at work at Christmas."   ???

Paul

I'd just discovered that figure as well, Super Guard!  Here's a link to the spreadsheet:

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/labour/december-2014/number-of-people-estimated-to-work-on-christmas-day--2012.xls (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/labour/december-2014/number-of-people-estimated-to-work-on-christmas-day--2012.xls)

Which also shows that working in Scotland was not significantly higher on Christmas Day. 


So unless work patterns have changed massively since 2012 the other survey was significantly flawed. 


I think it was more likely something systematic in the way the sample was selected

If that is the quality of the research ThinkMoney works on I don't think I will trust them with any of my money. 

From the aricle linked -

636 of 2,000 sampled is 31.8%. So to be nationally representative, it is suggesting that % of the UK population reside there - they obviously don't - so the poll not representative of the UK.


Can't disagree there!

The Buses of Somerset and First in Bristol, Bath & the West (FBBW) both ran services on Boxing Day, and New Years Day.

The former ran a Sunday service on all its routes on both days. The latter ran special timetables in Bristol & Bath only. The only longer distance services to operate in the FBBW area were the 376 from Bristol to Street (not Boxing Day), 39 from Bath to Bristol and the X2, X6 and X8 from Bristol to North Somerset destinations. There were no FBBW services in outlying towns/areas such as Weston-super-Mare (no X1 which was surprising considering the the X2/X6/X8 all ran), Frome, Trowbridge, Midsomer Norton/Radstock.

In the First Wessex, Dorset & South Somerset area the only services to run on either day were a special timetable on routes 1 & 10 in Weymouth on Boxing Day only. No other services ran.

So, top marks to The Buses of Somerset for their comprehensive service on both days. I initially thought I may be able to travel from Curry Rivel in Somerset all the way home to Lawrence Weston in Bristol on Boxing Day, if I wished to escape the family. Sadly I could only get as far as Weston-super-Mare (BoS 21), with no FBBW service from there to Bristol.

I'm not overly surprised that people have rushed off to find a survey which contradicts one which they didn't like the sound of and trash the one I referenced - my surprise I guess is that they only managed to find one that uses estimated data which is two years out of date and only refers to Christmas Day, not Boxing day which as you may have noted is the theme of this thread.........both sides in any debate of course can use statistics to their own perceived advantage.

The original agenda for this thread was really set by Industry Insider who observed that "I remain of the opinion that, come the end of the major electrification and Crossrail work, that any newly let franchise should include a Boxing Day service on the major FGW routes".

It's been diverted (I'm as guilty of this as any) to encompass the entire question of working over Christmas, and the firm determination of some rail staff not to, for reasons ranging from quality time with family to the desire to consume lots of ale (both of which I fully empathise with!) or at least unless they are offered generous overtime to do so (which seems fair enough)..........the interests of customers however, for whom the railways exist, seem to have somewhat been lost in the ether.

It's pretty clear that there is a demand for Boxing day services, and I suspect that in the fullness of time in the context set by II's opinion above, the interests of the many will outweigh the narrow self interests of the few and we will see Boxing Day services resume.

No doubt the Union will scream and shout about it but a compromise will be found as is always the case with these things, and a lot of people will find their wallets a bit heavier come January's payday, and trains may be a little more comfortable on Dec 27th.

Best wishes to you all for 2015.

You're right, I 'rushed off' to find a more credible figure because I could not believe for one second that 16% of people worked on Christmas day.  The fact the figures are two years out of date really doesn't alter much - unless you're seriously suggesting that both surveys are correct, meaning number of Xmas Day working Britons has risen from 1.8m two years ago to over 10m this year?  Personally, I would certainly trust an official estimate from the Government over those of an on-line polling company commissioned by an on-line money management company.

I don't know, and neither do you, and neither do those compiling either survey, they are estimates based on what people have told them - I would imagine the real figure is somewhere between the two, judging by most surveys margins for error.

Shall we get back to the merits of running trains on Boxing Day as I've suggested above, or shall we ask the admins to split the thread?

You brought up the survey, Sir! :-)

I think there has to be a balance between the wishes (rather than needs) of customers and the wishes of staff.  

In the retail sector there is one large staff owned company (John Lewis also trading as Waitrose) which was noticeably not open on Boxing Day.  If this was such a big thing for the business you might expect it to be doing badly in financial terms. However it actually doing quite well.  So opening on boxing day clearly isn't a make or break for the company.  



Interested to hear how we might define "major FGW routes"?  

We should remember that TfL will presumably make the decisions about Boxing Day services on Crossrail.

I bitterly regret it! I didn't realise what a frenzy it would generate!

Someone asked the question as to what % of people worked on Boxing Day so I tried to find out - and am now losing the will to live!  :'(

So far, I'm happy to see such a lively, but still good-natured, debate develop on this whole clearly contentious issue: no need to split the topic yet!  ;)

Purely in the interests of accuracy: Waitrose is the retail grocery part of the John Lewis Partnership. :)

Interesting to note that even some retail giants had a split. Tesco in St Austell was open on Boxing Day but the one in Truro wasn't. Both are similar size so whether this was a commercial decision or the staff had a choice, I know not...

Well, I know which source I'd rather believe: ONS's quarterly survey (LFS) of 1 in 1000 households (53,000), using face-face interviews; or a phone survey by someone you've never heard of, who may have selected 2,000 people as representative (of what?) - or may not - and were probably thought by those they called to be suggers (perhaps correctly).

I reckon that how many people do work over these holidays is relevant to whether the railways should operate - indicating both how 'special' that would make railway employees, and how much demand there might be. To which end, figures for Boxing day would be helpful to us.

Annoyingly, the LFS (Labour Force Survey) does ask which public holidays are worked - but those data do not seem to be processed and published anywhere, apart from the ad-hoc ones in that link. It looks as though you need to sign up as a user of the UK data Service to get the raw data; I might just possibly try to do that.

In fact, there was an earlier set too, for 2008: see this Excel file (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/freedom-of-information/what-can-i-request/published-ad-hoc-data/labour/december-2014/people-working-on-christmas-day--2008.xls). The detailed occupational groups chosen for these two summaries are different, which isn't helpful. There has been a revision of the labelling scheme (SOC2000 to SOC2010), though that should not affect these detailed group labels much. However, there are some puzzling changes; e.g. that for midwives (a clearly defined group, I think) 35% worked Christmas 2008 and just 13% in 2012.

For railway workers, it looks odd that in 2012 group 8234 'Rail transport operatives' was one of the highest at 18%. However, like all labels you need to check what it covers - or does not. It excludes train drivers, and all public-facing train and station staff, so it will presumably be largely NR's staff such as signallers and some PW workers. Professional engineers and technicians have their own groups, as will construction workers not in rail-specific jobs.  In 2008 group 8143 'Rail construction and maintenance operatives' was listed, at 19%; I guess that will have gone up as there are more big projects going on this year.   

This is a tough one, yes I am an Engineer and I am a Railway worker so if asked in a survey did you work over Christmas I would tick the Railway worker.

Railways is the sector I work in Engineering is my trade I am a professional Railway Engineer (confuses the Americans bless um)

Don't worry - your NSO interviewer will cope with the complexities of SOC2010 - fortunately, as even just volume 1 of the guide is 266 pages.

Thinking about it, with 1 in 1000 addresses chosen each quarter, presumably some forum members must have taken part in the LFS at some stage. Anyone?

Somewhere between the two and margins for error... You do realise you can admit occasionally that you may just be a little off the mark without the sky falling?  ;) ;D

For the record I didn't rush off to find an article to discredit you, you will see the BBC article was published on 24 December 2014 and the fact I read it that day meant it stuck in my mind that your figure didn't seem quite right.  A quick google search of "BBC Christmas Day workers" bought the article back.

Interestingly, you will note the ONS figures actually show it was a drop to 2.9% from both the 2008 & 2010 figures.

I've just seen a summary of the Crossrail T&C's for new drivers when MTR Corp take over the TfL concession from this May (initially just the Liverpool Street - Shenfield service), and it makes interesting reading regarding Boxing Day.

Agreement for new drivers to keep a day's holiday for Christmas Day is included, but for Boxing Day payment of triple time if drivers are booked out is specifically stated, with no mention of it being any different to a normal working day other than the enhanced payment.  Existing drivers can opt into this contract if they wish, or remain on their current T&C's.

Whilst that doesn't mean a Boxing Day service will operate, for their to be a specific agreement regarding that day, including a rate of remuneration, it looks like MTR Corp are going to make it easy for them to introduce one if they are instructed to by TfL!

Good news.

Good news indeed - sounds like a step in the right direction!

I'm pretty sure triple time was scoffed at as "pure greed" a few pages back.. now it's a step in the right direction?

I can't keep up...  ???

Means to an end, whether that is justified is another argument -  step in the right direction to a Boxing Day service - triple time is more than generous for Boxing Day but it is no doubt intended to forestall handbag waving from the Unions (whom I would suspect were party to it), and it protects the rights of what will be the dwindling band of employees who are not obliged to work over Christmas (although I suspect many of these will be tempted at that rate), so notwithstanding the amounts of money involved it would seem to be a win/win all around......lets hope it sets an example for the rest of the network.

Don't whine when fares go up to pay for it....

.........ahhh but this is several years hence, by which time no doubt the taxes and fares paid by myself and millions of others will have enabled the railways to move onto broad, sunlit uplands with unbelievable levels of efficiency, comfort, capacity and reliability and we will be only to happy to hand over the keys to our houses, cars and indeed all our worldly goods for the privilege of setting foot inside one of the wheeled chariots that will await to speed us to our destinations, with a salute, wink and cheery wave from the jolly red cheeked chap on the platform who will also have helped us with our luggage and ensured we are cosy in our seats with a cup of tea and a bun.............7 days a week, 364 days a year!

(But still no trains at Taplow on a Sunday!)  ;D

Surely you can terrorise Crossrail by the time that all happens?  ;)

If it doesn't happen I won't be "Cross" rail I'll be Incandescent Rail!  ;D

From the Liverpool echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseyrail-run-boxing-day-trains-10417961)


Please post / follow up with other Boxing day services!

I heard Noddy Holder's famous refrain/pension plan yesterday for the first time this year. And now I read about Boxing Day trains on this forum.

Another year. Plus ^a change, plus c'est la m^me chose.

 ::) ;D

Well done Merseyrail!

About time GWR followed their example and responded to the needs of their customers! That song by Noddy Holder is the RMT anthem isn't it?  (..........puts on hard hat, runs away and hides in a bunker!)  :D

Victoria to Sutton and East Grinstead every 30 minutes, whilst 4tph to East Croydon, 2 slow, 2 fast.
St Pancras to Ashford every 30 minutes
Marylebone to Oxford Parkway every 30 minutes
Liverpool Street to Stansted every 30 minutes

From National Rail - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/106437.aspx


From our own member ...


I know where to go for information  ;D - THANK YOU

When do you plan Christmas?  When should Network Rail publish data on what's running?

Glasgow suburbs (using real time trains)

A dozen trains an hour leave Glasgow Queen Street from around 9 a.m. to midnight - to Bathgate, Cumbernauld, Helensburgh Central, Airdrie, Anniesland, Balloch and Croy. An even fuller service from Central to Ayr, Gourock, Neilston, Cumbernauld, Paisley Canal, Kilmarnock, Shotts, East Kilbride, Newton, Lanark, Dalmuir, Larkhall, Largs, Wemyss Bay, Ardrossan Harbour  and Motherwell.

Edinburgh - no services showing

Buckfastleigh to Totnes:

Ah but am I not right in thinking that Boxing Day isn't a Bank Holiday in Scotland? Don't they have an extra day in the New Year to get over Hogmanay?

...yet. I noticed the Merseyrail ones aren't up on the system yet either

Pedant Alert!!  I don't think it's a Bank holiday in England or Wales either this year as it's on a Saturday   ;D


Ah but am I not right in thinking that Boxing Day isn't a Bank Holiday in Scotland? Don't they have an extra day in the New Year to get over Hogmanay?
[/quote]

We've had this discussion several times over the years, and I can certainly see the holder of the Greater Western franchise operating a Boxing Day service on its core routes when the modernisation is complete.  Until then it isn't worth doing as it would largely be a bus service!  The drivers contracts for the new Crossrail route include arrangements for working on Boxing Day, and other TOCs are slowly adopting a Boxing Day service, though usually just suburban services in the larger cities - still, good to see Merseyrail now joining that list.

Not trains, but still public transport, Southern Vectis are operating a fairly intensive bus service on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day across the Isle of Wight. 

[/quote]

Not quite.  Firstly BANK holidays in Scotland are just that.  Days on which Banks close.

PUBLIC holidays in Scotland may or may not coincide with bank holidays and are set by local authorities in Scotland (when I was in Edinburgh, they tended to choose the same days as England whereas Glasgow was less likely to do so).  Most (all?) local authorities in Scotland will have boxing day as a public holiday (if it is a week day) 

2 Jan is a public holiday in Scotland but not England.

Indeed holidays in Scotland vary from area to area.

See this list from Royal Mail (http://www.royalmail.com/service-update/bank-holidays).

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3374368/Tories-accused-hypocrisy-Boxing-Day-rail-shutdown-twenty-operators-fail-offer-services-today-hundreds-families-sports-travel-country.html?) - Tories accused of hypocrisy on Boxing Day rail shutdown: after twenty operators fail to offer services today as hundreds of families and sports travel around the country

Swindon Advertiser (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/14164526.Railway_is_scoring_own_goal_by_not_running_Boxing_Day_trains_warns_passenger_group_leader/?) - Railway is scoring own goal by not running Boxing Day trains warns passenger group leader

The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/26/boxing-day-rail-shutdown-prompts-labour-accusation-of-tory-hypocrisy?) - Boxing Day rail shutdown prompts Labour accusation of Tory hypocrisy

The Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-slams-tories-over-boxing-7071307?) - Labour slams Tories over Boxing Day rail chaos hypocrisy as trains shutdown

Whether there would be sufficient sipply of coaches/buses for the inevitable bustitutions necessary if a Boxing Day service was run, wiuld be a moot point.

Once started, there would be no choosing to run a service. So buses etc would be needed. Many are utilised on taking holidaymakers on Christmas holidays, and wouldn't be available

It's very difficult to know where the engineering works are being done on Boxing day because there are no trains, and where there are no trains because engineering works are being done - to know what is cause and what is effect.

For example, it's sensible for the bridge over the main line east of Swindon to be replaced over these two days because there are no trains ... but had there been the serious want of a train service, could that replacement work have not equally been done during the weekend shutdown of the entire Swindon area when the signal controls were being switched to Didcot, thus leaving the line available on 26th December?   Rhetorical question ... not looking for an answer, by the way!

Sunday services are increasing / becoming a little more like the rest of the week, but are still far from complete in their coverage, and indeed the same would probably be the case on Boxing Day.   I wouldn't advocate (at one extreme) a "halts train" between Oxford and Evesham - at least at first(!) - and I think it unlikely that The Drain should run.  Where I have local knowledge - and that's the TransWilts - I would suggest running round trips, from Westbury at around 07:30 and every 2 hours to 11:30, 14:30 and every 2 hours to mid evening (20:30?).  With that service level perhaps remaining suitable even when "Vision 2020" is realised.

Isn't suggesting that replacement buses will be busy doing things elsewhere (a) well away from the truth, because bus services ain't running [much] anyway and (b) being an admission of defeat were it true?

A popular and pertinent annual debate, and I wholeheartedly agree that there should be Boxing Day trains in the normal scheme of things - airlines, National Express etc all operate Christmas Day and Boxing day and the Tube is running today so why should the railways be any different? There is clearly a demand.

I think it's legitimate to have a Christmas shutdown whilst all the engineering work is ongoing as it provides a window for a lot of work to be done in a short period of time (although arguably this could be better achieved in say August when a lot of people are on their hols, which are more of a moveable feast than Christmas so would be easier to adjust for), however you also have to factor in outdated agreements which guarantee rail staff time off on Christmas Day/Boxing day, can you imagine the agony of renegotiating those against the background of Trade Unions which are already happy to call strikes on the feeblest of premises?

I hope that in the fullness of time and once the excuse of major engineering work is finished (perhaps with the advent of Crossrail?) the railways will put their customers first ahead of their own interests and answer the need for services on Boxing Day in order to help people attend sales/sporting events etc.

Interestingly as I write this there are engineering trains pootling to and fro around Taplow, tooting their horns and waking everyone up!

"Passenger group leader" - I wonder who that might be - Yes it is

There are 'main line' trains running this Boxing Day.  There is a 20 minute interval Heathrow Connect service between Heathrow T123 and T4 and also T123 and T5....... ::) :P

And Chiltern are running a half-hourly service between Oxford Parkway and Marylebone

Yes.  Just beat me to it....... ;)

...and services out of London Victoria, Brighton and lots of other London area Southern suburban stations.

Not much scope for Boxing Day trains out of Paddington until Crossrail is finished.   

Crossrail works mostly affect the Relief Lines.  The Paddington to Hayes signalling system was engineered by BR (yes, remember them) to seperate the Relief Lines signalling from the Main Lines signalling to allow very such events, but hey-ho, thats the 'modern' railway for you......nobody seems to want to really try anymore :P

Hmmm ... from the school of sensationalist journalism, I'm afraid (The Swindon Advertiser is a bit that way at times!).  Their choice of description, and one that wasn't cleared with / given by me.  


Agreed - the idea floated is that the train route plan for 27th December (and subsequent days) be extrapolated back to 26th December, and not that everything is opened for the day on 26th.

ScotRail are also running some services today, mostly centred on Glasgow. Of course Scotland has a network closedown on 1st January which isn't the case in the rest of Great Britain.

Merseyrail are running trains for the first time on Boxing Day. An hourly service on most lines between 0900-1830.

Quite agree that Boxing Day should have a much more widespread service, and I've said before (I think) that the drivers contracts for Crossrail do have agreements for working those days, so I'm fully expecting some sort of service when that commences.  I'm not sure there is enough demand to run any service on Christmas Day as I don't think it offers value for money to the taxpayers that would end up paying for the few that would use it.

Regarding the engineering trains, having travelled between Paddington and Oxford on Xmas Eve evening I have never seen so many laden engineering trains, plant, equipment and staff ready to go as soon as the lines were shut.  Let's hope all the important stuff is finished on time!

  "Passenger Gruppenfuhrer" is your title from now on! :)

And from The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/26/boxing-day-travellers-rail-train-network-engineering-work?)


I don't think anyone's denying it's the most practical time of year to carry out engineering works - but isn't there quite a big gap between a signifcant set of engineering closures and the very few services indeed that are running today?   Passenger numbers are indeed lower over Christmas - there's something of "cause and effect" here, though - we learned in the winter of 2006 that if you provide a much reduced service (or no service at all) and time remaining trains when it's operationally convenient, you'll find that passenger numbers drop.

Here's an illustration picking up data from an archived Save the Train page (http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/melkshamrailway/19_An_easy_timetable_Melksham_to_Chippenham_and_Swindon.html) and adding in current information.

Until December 2006 - Monday to Friday: 05:52 07:45 13:35 17:02 and 21:33
Until December 2013 - Monday to Friday: 07:19 and 19:48
From December 2013 - Monday to Friday: 07:19 07:49 10:04 12:03 14:30 16:37 18:48 and 19:48

Until December 2006 - Monday to Friday: 06:30 08:46 14:23 17:43 and 22:11
Until December 2013 - Monday to Friday: 06:12 and 18:44
From December 2013 - Monday to Friday: 06:12 08:49 10:47 12:47 15:12 17:36 18:52 and 20:12

Annual ticketed journeys to / from Melksham - prior to December 2006, estimated at around 15,000 per year.  Years after December 2006, estimated at around 5,000 per year. Latest published figures around 52,000 per year (to March 2015), with our counts suggesting a current run rate of around 75,000 per year (which is probably a higher figure than you'll see in the ORR figures next December due to the Bath blockade in July / August)

I suspect that if a widespread Boxing Day service were provided, it would be used. Just as I suspect that if the final train that ran prior to December 2006 was to be restored, the round trip would carry a couple of dozen passengers within the first few months, and those passengers would be newcomers who would make the other half of their round trips on the other trains already running, helping bolster those trains - and taking fares for seats that would otherwise be largely unoccupied.

The major problem would be sussing out the likely demand, which I'd suggest would very quickly be higher than a standard Saturday. Think the complaints of overfull trains/unable to board would be far worse than the complaints being made now!

Pax would expect cheap tickets too, super off-peaks & lower advance fares, thus making it a very much loss-leader for the TOCs, especially when the unions would want top-dollar benefits 3xwages plus day off in lieu I'd suggest the demand would be, maybe also volunteer labour only).

Basically the tax-payer will be paying the TOCs through their franchises.

Is it really worth it? When major routes would need bustitution too? Would volunteer labour be willing to staff these?

In terms of sussing out likely demand.....well it doesn't seem to bother them for the rest of the year, in the event of overcrowding the usual "there's no more stock available" excuse would no doubt be trotted out?

I think that people are generally accepting, albeit grudgingly of the need to suspend services for large scale engineering works. I think that (quite rightly) they would be less understanding of an explanation along the lines of "we're not going to run a Boxing Day service because it would cost us too much" - by all means limit the availability of "cheap" tickets, that would be legitimate and pay generous overtime..........double time would seem appropriate?

Most other major transport providers and indeed other service industries seem able to provide a service on Boxing Day and go the extra mile for their customers, I'm not sure why the railways should be any different (......engineering works notwithstanding)......unless we're still in the realms of an organisation run for the benefit of staff rather than customers?

Limiting cheap tickets would just result in more bad publicity, along the lines of "Rip off rail companies..." etc, etc.

In the same way that when GWR restrict GroupSave when a football team has got through to Wembley, they are accused of ripping off supporters, forgetting that those same supporters will probably have paid a small fortune for their ticket, but clearly can't afford to pay the cost of a normal train fare to get there.

Running an extensive timetable on Boxing Day will merely increase the risk of fatigue related incidents. I can hardly see drivers going to bed during the afternoon on Christmas Day whilst festivities are in full swing and obtaining a decent amount of uninterrupted sleep to ensure they can operate trains safely on Boxing Day.
Having said that, there will be drivers who have no families who would volunteer to work Boxing Day but probably not nearly enough to run a significant service. In fact we have volunteer drivers booking on for duty on both Christmas Day and Boxing Day to start the HSTs up in order to prevent flat batteries and defrosting duties.

I think trains in the UK are run for the benefit of passenger subject to the whims of DfT and the Treasury who will have to pay if Boxing Day services are not profitable so they will decide ultimately. 

Evidence suggests that government care little for their own staff so why should they care for the staff of Network Rail and the Train Operators? 

If an employer is seeking unskilled or skilled labour in a market where that there is no shortage, then they can disregard the feelings of staff and just about get away with it.  However they may find that staff do not treat their job seriously and customer service may suffer. 

However, in a market where skills are in short supply, employers would do well to treat their staff well otherwise they will find that they leave and they cannot be replaced easily. They then find they have staff shortages which puts an increasing burden on the remain staff - a vicious circles then starts.  (An example here is the NHS where the outcome is reliance on expensive agency staff at great cost).

In short treating your staff well makes good business sense in the long term. However many employers (governments especially) seem only to live for the short term.   

I think it's probably down to self discipline? My cousin is a BA pilot and his roster meant that he often had to forego ale on Christmas Day and/or have an early night, it didn't seem to spoil his or his family's enjoyment. I'm sure (I hope!) that train drivers would act in the same responsible manner out of consideration for their customers & colleagues?  Anyhow this is a circular argument that is done to death every year.....probably not an issue in the West until all the major engineering is complete.....shall we reconvene around 2040?  :)

Yes, drivers, and other staff, seem to be disciplined enough to turn up for early shifts on New Years Day.  I don't see how that differs from getting up for Boxing Day?

I think any efforts for GWR should wait until the current major upgrades are completed though.  Looking at all the possessions this year there would have been no meaningful service that could have operated without extensive bus replacements.

To suggest that there's an added risk of fatigue-related accidents on Boxing Day rather questions the professionalism of rail staff, and I would be amazed if it were the case - indeed, if it were the case, then we would have other much mor serious problems.   Where there may be an issue is in finding staff ready, willing and able to provide the services.

On engineering works, I would classify them as cause and effect of the shutdown.  Those which are causal may include (for example) a relay of the tracks between London Bridge and Borough Market Junction, where there's simply no easy alternative to a complete shutdown for a period.  Those whihc are effectual are works that are done at this time of year because it's a convenient stoppage when actually they could be done at another time - for example, the lifting into place of a replacement bridge span over a two day period which could, I suspect, have equally been doen when the line was shut for 2 days for resignalling a month or so back.

At the current time, though, the idea of rescheduling 'effect works' that are already on the calendar for 26th December 2016 probaly wouldn't be a good one - yet another reason to be given for late deliveries and cost overruns on huge projects; pragmatically we should accept it for another handful of years, and look to having a Boxing Day service as a 'deliverable' as electrification and stock cascades come through?

I'm in little doubt in my mind that there would, in the current age, be good traffic levels on a 26th December service - though it might be variable year upon year.   This year, it was a Saturday - next year, a Monday ... in 2017, a Tuesday and - although the days of the week are overwhelmed by the tidal wave of Christmas around this time, there is some effect and othere differing waves around the edges as the normal 7 day cycle changes to a few exceptional days and back to the cycle in the new year. 

This modern expectation of traffic on 26th December is in contrast to what was observed at around the time of the removal of the previous service some 40 years ago.  And one of the reasons given in those days was the cost of staffing all the signal boxes along the way for just a handful of trains.  That excuse is largely gone; in our area, I think we still have signal boxes along the main line in Cornwall - for perhaps a couple of years. Crediton might need staffing to cover a small area?   And there could be a few more.

What would be the traffic? People visiting relatives. Sales shopping. Sporting events. I only have the knowledge to take a local(ish) look at this and how it would work out;  I would see TransWilts as running with an 08:00 Westbury to Swindon, with the train then heading down to Salisbury, back to Westbury and cycling at 11:00, 14:00, 17:00 and 20:00, back into Westbury to close play arriving at 21:40 from Swindon.

As I write, noting this morning's restart issues:


Somewhere, I noted a comment that we've done this subject to death over the years (paraphrasing). To some extend we have, because it will go away and be off the headlines come the New Year - just back for the short term next Christmas, when really it needs a long term view to be taken.  But it's not exeactly the same subject each time - things are changing / melding and we may not see a sudden change, but yet nothing has turned at Chiltern into a London to Bicester serivce, to a London to Oxford Parkway service, and perhaps next year to a London to Oxford service.  And as electrification goes live out from Paddington, perhaps the electic lines, and a few connections, will come along too.

This Christmas Day I had my little kids running a mock playing with their new presents which created some degree of noise in our household. In late evening I am
supposed to ask my kids to pack everything and be quiet in order that Dad can sleep.
I also spent most of the day joining in and having fun with my kids. This isn't an ideal way to prepare your body for sleep and I would say it would be almost impossible to switch off once in bed. 
Recently in the press there have been incidents involving freight trains in the Reading area which have been attributed to fatigure. It is a big issue within the industry and I don't think we should be implementing working patterns which increases that risk.

If they're little kids and its late in the evening then yes, it'd be reasonable to ask them to be quiet in these circumstances.

These are no different to the challenges faced by anyone who works in a safety critical environment, sorry but to use them as a reason for not providing a service on the nation's railways is frankly laughable......if you put them forward in the public arena you'd be laughed off the stage.

Late in the evening??  We're talking of going to bed at 16:00 on Christmas Day to obtain the advised amount of sleep required to start a shift at just after midnight. There is no way you could get to 16:00 and then just cancel the rest of Christmas and the house will fall silent. There is no way if you're a father/mother of young children that you would even have enough time to wind down in order to prepare yourself for sleep. 

Preparing trains isn't a case of just arriving at the depot, starting the engines and driving straight off into the station. They all need preparing and depots are the most dangerous of working environments. 

If I were to put them forward in a public arena I would get laughed at as very few understand the role and the effects of fatigue. Freight drivers have long campaigned against the effects of unsocial hours and the effect this has on them to safely perform there duties.
I'm not saying there should be no services running on Boxing Day. I think there will be in time i just think you need to be very careful on how you implement it. It should be on a volunteer basis only.

I totally agree that we need to be careful how we implement it, and that the services should be run by people who want to run those services.  I suspect we all have considerable commonality of view here.

We live in a consumer society where we have come to believe that every service we want should be provided with little or no thought to the people who have to provide those services. It would be nice to have trains on boxing day, but do we really need it? 

Christmas is a season of good will to all.  So how about some good will to those who work to provide a train service for us the rest of the year.

Let us not forget those who are doing the engineering work over Christmas, who will not be with their families. 

Boxing Day trains with anything like a full service finally ended in the 1980s - generally put forward as one of the most consumerist decades ever.

The full TfL Sunday-style bus service on Boxing Day carries approximately 80% of passengers overall compared with a typical Sunday. Present estimates indicate a similar service on Christmas Day would run at roughly 30% which is too low to fulfil the benefit to cost criteria.

I would be interested to see a survey of rail users as to potential usage of a Boxing Day service either locally or for longer distances.

Possibly, when the next day is a normal working day. Some people will need to return home to start work the following day. So a limited service of long distance services starting up mid afternoon could provide a socially useful service (engineering work notwithstanding). However, I have a lot of sympathy for the view that just because people want to go sales shopping/watch football on Boxing Day the railway shouldn't feel obliged to meet that demand. Both of those are discretionary activities.

I think that sums up the railways attitude to its customers to a tee and perfectly illustrates the complacency of a monopoly supplier - if FGW faced real competition you'd all get an almighty fright!

In the real world, if a business doesn't seek to meet the demands of its customers and they have a choice they will simply go elsewhere and that business will cease trading very swiftly - what is a business there for if not to meet its customers demands, discretionary or otherwise?

Notwithstanding the (perfectly understandable) desires of staff to spend the Christmas break with their families, not work on Sundays unless they wish to etc, the World has moved on from the 1970s and many of these terms, conditions and the attitudes/cultures they have bred belong there. I struggle to think of any service industries who still operate on this basis, apart from the Civil Service perhaps but even that is changing.

Anyway, I am eagerly anticipating the no doubt flawless return to something approaching normal working for LTV services into Paddington tomorrow morning!!!

Enjoy the remainder of Xmas/festive season!

FGW/GWR would never face real competition, and the same would apply to any other train operating company in the country.
All TOCs are ultimately controlled by the government. I still stand by the fact that if the franchise were to change hands no passenger would notice any difference in the level of service. Virtually everything to do with the operation of a franchise is set in stone by the DfT.  Train operators have little wriggle room.
The only chance of competition would be through an Open Access operator and they would be so small the threat would be minimal. Indeed, Virgin Trains West Coast effectively forced an Open Access out of business.

As for stores opening on Boxing Day. John Lewis remained shut and are still in business. Companies like that should be commended and will earn far more loyalty and goodwill from its employees. The railway runs on goodwill (and tea)

Historically, I can assure you that I (a passenger) noticed a difference in the level of service when the First group took over from National Express and brought in their new timetable in December 2006 - and that new timetable has been described widely to me since as "a disaster".   

Things have changed - the pendulum has swung, and the record of that period is now historic with rail company, community, local councils understanding each other much better and supporting each other for the common goal / good. Occasionally we (the community) still need to be pragmatic / bite our tongues at what the council and/or TOC does, but at least we understand the driving forces a bit better and can help achieve common goals.

Looking wider, it's my view that it is worthwhile for the passenger community to engage with franchise bidders (as well as franchise specifiers via consultation processes) on the basis that all of the bids can better if the bidders are aware of local conditions, aspirations and quirks.   I am aware (well after the event) of what was (and wasn't) in some bids that didn't win, and the passenger / services would have been rather different ...

I'm thinking based on the section I've highlighted that you think I am associated with the railway. Indeed I do have a long standing association with them... as a customer of many years, day in, day out.  So my comments should't be regarded as the attitude of GWR or Network Rail (and apologies if it has come across as such), but as someone who is trying to take a balanced view.  I also applaud John Lewis' stance on remaining closed on Boxing Day for what it's worth.

And I am very much associated with GWR and am of the opinion that Boxing Day services should be much more widespread!  I'm sure TG was just generalising and using it to demonstrate his well worn argument that the railway industry is stuck in the 70s - and there is no doubt that a good percentage within the railway industry that don't think that there should be Boxing Day services.  But there are plenty that think there should, just as John R is one of the passengers that think their shouldn't be, but clearly there are plenty of passengers that think there should.

It's an argument that will run for many years and who knows what the 'correct' answer is.  The John Lewis situation is certainly interesting and I hadn't realised they remained shut.  The one sure-fire way to ensure there are more widespread Boxing Day rail services is for them to be specified in franchise agreements, and, for whatever reasons, successive governments have not done that despite plenty of opportunities.  I suggest those that want them strongly urge them to be included when upcoming franchise consultations take place.

Trying to find staff for Boxing Day trains will be hard
My partner is a train driver and we have a baby and Christmas is the only time we get together as a family as he can relax but if he was made to work Boxing Day trains this means he would have to go to bed at 4pm Christmas Day just to be up in time for the early shift!

It my fall into the "if we (DfT) include Boxing Day train services in franchise tenders the bidders will come back with conditions" this could mean HMG loosing revenue back from the franchise while the TOC negotiates with its various Trade Unions which could take longer than the franchise and of course NR will have to do the same for its staff and we are not talking about just the Signalmen; maintenance and Route teams will need to be staffed .   

Accepted the Railways are a public service however we are talking about the removal of peoples right to a Public Holiday which if an employer tried to impose the terms it could spend years going through the Courts; unless of course HMG wishes to pass some primary legislation.

Boxing Day service if they where to run would be the bases of staff (TOC & NR) volunteering with the necessary inducement (last year I worked Boxing Day 200% pay plus day TOIL)   

Yep, should be no problem staffing by asking for volunteers, at least initially to see if it's viable enough.  The TOCs that are running services, as far as I know, all do it on a voluntary basis - they offer an attractive return for which those drivers without too heavy Christmas commitments are persuaded.

As a suggestion you could start in 2020 post-Crossrail completion with a service that runs from say 8am to 8pm covering Reading/Heathrow to Shenfield/Abbey Wood every 30 minutes.  Then GWR (or whatever it may be called) could run during the same time period hourly from Bristol/Cardiff and Oxford to London with the usual stops, with perhaps an hourly service from Reading to Gatwick Airport to help with the airport flows.  See how successful and practical it is and if it works then maybe look at extensions to Swansea/Plymouth/Worcester and maybe a Portsmouth/Cardiff service.

Not too many volunteers required to run that service (as a percentage of the number of potentially eligible drivers), not too many really early shifts required as few would need to start before 6am to get the empty trains from the depot to the station, and not too many late finishes.

By that time most of the route would be covered by the TVSC at Didcot or WROC at Cardiff making signalling arrangements much easier to sort out than they currently are.  Engineering upgrades will be completed and so we'd be back to needing much less of the wide-scale blockades we currently get.  Yes, it would cost the government money - but would be socially really useful.

Well John Lewis has been quoted as a example of a retailer that does not open on boxing day.  

Yes businesses need to meet the needs of their customers, but not necessarily every demand. Provision of good customer service day in day out (which I am sure most readers would agree the railways currently do not achieve for various reasons) would be far more benefit than provision of a service to take people to the sales on boxing day.  

A number of businesses (I am not just confining this to the rail sector) continue to admirably demonstrate that if management treat staff badly then they are unlikely to treat their customers any better.  

Add to this that if you are trying to employ skilled labour in a shortage, you need these people you need to treat them well or they will walk.  Then you cannot provide any service to your customers.  

There are businesses who employ unskilled people in an employers market and they can call the shots.  But I do not know any that are renowned for their quality of customer service.  

As for government.  They are fast becoming the worst of all employers (politician's massive ego's and lack of business skills because most have never had a proper job).  For example; there is a shortage of nurses in the NHS and most feel overworked an unable to do the correct job, so many leave, only solution is expensive agency nurses vicious cycle - spend more - more pressure on nurses to cut costs - less job satisfaction - more leave.  That is just plain bad management from the top down.  It is also disastrous customer service (Stafford?).  

Of course businesses should be run for the benefit of customers, but staff matter too as they provide the front line service.

As I read this thread and how we've moved on to discuss the wider matters - in this case - or running a Boxing Day passenger train service, I never cease to be amazed at the depth of thought, of knowledge, and of ideas expressed. You members are an impressive bunch, made that much more powerful by background, industry, and government background in some cases - and by the lack of such background in other cases which makes you ask the questions and put the points that those closer to the case would skip as being out beyond left field.

More specifics / comments to follow. Just wanted to get that off my chest!

There was a significant cash incentive to work this Sunday just gone and only a few drivers opted to work leading to cancellations.

There was the list for volunteer drivers to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day just to go to the depot and start the HSTs up in order to prevent flat batteries etc and this attracted only a few names despite the pay offered and reasonable hours yet few people put their names forward.

To get enough drivers to run a passenger service would, in my opinion, by extremely difficult.

I can understand that it will be difficult as how many drivers will want to go to bed at 4pm on Christmas Day to be up for an early shift, my partner is a driver and we have a baby and Christmas is a fun time for us seeing out child having an amazing day I don't think my partner would want to miss out on our family Christmas by going to bed Christmas afternoon to be up in time for the early shift, I do give a lot of credit to drivers as my partner is on, but no one will want to give up their family Christmas they are just as entitled to Christmas as everyone else

You make it sound as if there were loads of cancellations due to driver shortages - I can recall only a tiny number, and from the Daily Alteration Sheets I saw there were plenty of drivers allocated and plenty of spare (stand-by) drivers.  Also, there were of course many more trains running than would be required for the Boxing Day service that I suggested.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one, but I'll ask the question again.  If what you say is the case, how do the other TOCs that provide a Boxing Day service manage to get enough volunteers?


Just to repeat what I said in my previous post, if you operate an 8am-8pm service only, then there would be no drivers on a 'proper' early shift (i.e. 2-5am start) - other than perhaps the odd depot prepper that are already rostered for duty now when no trains run.  I can quite understand how in your situation it would not be something your partner would consider doing, but not all drivers have those commitments, and if you offer the right amount of money then, as Chiltern and others prove year-in-year-out, you will get enough volunteers.

We had a total of at least 8 turns uncovered.

You will always get volunteers, those drivers that don't have families etc. I don't know what sort of offer they make to their drivers but on a network the size of GWR I don't think you would get enough to run a meaningful service on every route

My partner would happily work it just not while our baby is so young, GWR had problems with drivers on the 27th some trains were cancelled because of lack of drivers this will always be a problem over the Christmas period unfortunately and especially if there are diverts on trains due to engineering works, eventually all TOCs will end up running trains Boxing Day but at the same time the track need engineering works it's trying to get the balance right as Christmas is the only big change they can close down the rail network

I noted a lot of HST services to / from Waterloo 'capped' at Reading - and wondered if there was a staffing issue with a lack of staff / pilotpeople who knew the road rather than a more general issue?

That simply isn't the case - I've worked on loads of Public Holidays (including Christmas Day for what it's worth) and have simply had the day off in lieu on another day, you're not removing anyone's right to have a day off in respect of Boxing day - otherwise how would you staff hospitals, Police, emergency services etc?

It doesn't need "Primary legislation", just some negotiation and common sense!

As an aside, when I've worked for an employer where Christmas working was necessary, the general deal was that if you worked over Christmas one year, you wouldn't have to the following year - seems pretty fair? Surely that could work?

If as others have stated Crossrail Drivers have Boxing Day working as part of their contract then that is a big step forward.

Exactly my thoughts too Graham, the only trains I saw were the ones that were cut short at Reading, I don't remember seeing any cancelled from Bristol/Cardiff/Plymouth etc which made me think the problem was with the 'bought in' pilots rather than the GWR drivers themselves.

On the other hand though if there was a shortage of drivers then stopping them at Reading would have made sense as passengers could continue to Waterloo via Staines or via Guildford and complete their journey with not much added on to the journey time whilst still running a full service on the rest of the network.

Yes I agree, which I why I suggested starting small and offering an hourly service on just four GWR core routes running between the hours of 8am-8pm for which they'd only be a total of around 70 actual train services throughout the whole day.  That's probably going to need a dozen or so LTV and HSS volunteers from the large pool of drivers at their various depots.  You could cut that down further by sending some or all of the Cardiff services via Bristol.


I did wonder that as well.  Will try and find out.


Yes, AIUI they do.  I definitely saw a drivers contract for Crossrail which had that stipulated quite clearly in it.  I assume that was the final contract that all new drivers would sign up to, even if existing drivers that TUPE'd over were able to keep their original conditions.

And new franchises can bring in similar cintracts for new drivers, thus giving them a pool of drivers sufficient for major services over the length of the franchise. I wiuld expect the DfT to go that way by contracting via new franchises if that's what was wanted.

The problem will be demand. While football/shops (& potential return to work on 27th) will likely overload any services provided, leading to even more complaints than currently

Some of us neither want to shop or go to sporting fixtures. I'd just like the opportunity to be able to escape the relatives on the 26th if needs be.

That said, this won't be an issue for me next or future Chritmases. I shall be living closer to family from March 2016.

The other issue to resolve with Crossrail due to the lack of toilets on the trains all the stations will need to be staffed so the station toilets can be available.

No chance unless Crossrail take over station operatorship - has this been determined? If so, staff from first to last is standard in a TfL contract. But don't hold out for toilets where there currently aren't any

If the predominant local services between Reading and Paddington are going to be Crossrail, the I assume they will take over the local stations. 

No toilets on Crossrail trains? I guess the journey times are (relatively) short so hopefully not too much of an issue!

I guess it'll be a similar experience to a lengthy Tube journey and there are very few (if any?) toilets at Tube stations, at least I guess most LTV stations do have toilets.............I think there's two questions there for a trivia quiz!!!

Sorry to kill your trivia quiz ... the TfL station toilet map is at

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/toilets-map.pdf

Part of the fanfare announcement a few weeks ago by TfL on the new trains, Boris gets panned in the press  http://www.standard.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-is-panned-over-lack-of-loos-on-1bn-crossrail-trains-6384452.html however he will not get flushed at the next Mayor for London election, note how we in the outside London have had a decision forced on us by a non-elected body (not elected by us that is)

And if the experiences of Met Line tube users from the extremities are to go by, TfL don't listen either.

First Bus in Bath ran some services on Boxing Day and New Year's day for the first time for "many years" ... very interesting to hear of their experience.   Which should not put others off running on Boxing Day  ;)

Good to see that the new London Overground concession, awarded to Arriva today, has, amongst other things, a commitment to run Boxing Day services on some routes.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-overground-services-to-run-later-into-the-night-after-privatisation-deal-a3206456.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-overground-services-to-run-later-into-the-night-after-privatisation-deal-a3206456.html)

This year, for the first time in many years, I shall be able to escape the relatives on Boxing Day if the need arises.

Thanks to better public transport provision on the 26th December?

Don't be silly. I have a driving licence now.  :P

Excellent - because the Railway Industry's annual own goal of showing the country how it can do without a railway on one of the busiest sport and leisure days of the whole year needs to be brought to the attention of the upper managers, directors, and national and local civil servants at a time they're at work ... which is prior to 22nd December, and after 2nd January.

Perhaps we should add a diary date of 26th June 2018 (its a Tuesday) when we celebrate Unboxing Day - we all get out our christmas decorations, go down to our local station and make a point in good time that we want a decent service six months hence. Probably won't work in the first year, but I suspect we could catch media attention ... and who knows in time.

As the staff will all be on double pay, and you can't blame them for that, I would want that too for Boxing day, I hope you won't grumble if peak fares are charged all day too, to cover the cost of running a railway when most staff would want to be with family & friends.

On this one day of the year, I'm with the staff & rail companies.

I’m a member of staff who’d be very happy to work Boxing Day, for a sensibly appropriate pay enhancement.

Fair enough, but are potential passengers willing to pay a sensibly appropriate fares enhancement ?

I think that rather than run a limited and expensive train service on Boxing day, that the day should be declared a "proper" public holiday with large sporting venues and large shops closed by law, and places of entertainment shut.

That would reduce energy use, give millions of retail and other workers a 2 day break at Christmas, and save money on overtime payment.

TfL manage to run a Sunday service on the Underground. And all night sponsored (free) service on New Years Eve. I don't see why it's beyond the rail companies to do similar on the big trains...if the demand is there of course...

I'm saddened that Boxing Day has become just another day for the British public to indulge in their obsession called consumerism. I feel for those on Christmas Day who can't enjoy the day knowing in the back of their mind they will be up first thing in the morning to go to work just so people can shop/eat out/entertainment. Can we not just have two straight days in the year when this doesn't happen other than Easter Sunday?

Certainly on NYE there is.....but I think the worry there is whether too many pax would want to travel on a diminished service - I think some routes might well need a peak service running in the middle of the night...just to cope with the number wanting to get home.

I predict Crossrail will have a Boxing Day service within a couple of years.

Yes, that's quite likely! But NR will have a say west of Hayes I reckon

I noted that Overground have no Boxing Day services, so I'm not so sure about that

Ahem. Some of us work Christmas Day. And Easter Sunday.

Signed, a church organist.

Agree, and we are not talking about BANNING consumerism, but only postponing it by a day or two !

I would prohibit by law the following from opening.
Large shops (large as already defined by the Sunday trading act)
Sports stadia (defined as those that charge for admission)
Theatres and cinemas (defined as premises that hold a cinema or theatre licence)
All other spectator sports/events that charge for admission or employ paid staff, so as to prohibit for example horse or motor racing.
Other entertainment or leisure facilities with an admission charge or paid staff, so as to prevent zoos, museums, theme parks and the like from opening.

I would permit the following to open
Pubs and restaurants, provided that no admission charge is made.
Small scale sporting or cultural events that make no admission charge and employ no paid staff, so as not to prohibit small and informal sporting events in a public open space.
Any small and local events provided that no charge is made for admission and that no paid staff are engaged.

Indeed Richard also including the emergency services, hospitals, utilities for which we should be grateful. I'm referring to the non essentials that we could live without for just a couple of days. What makes me laugh is seeing people load their trolleys in the run up to Christmas (some of it stuff that will still be sitting in the corner of the living room in April) as if the supermarkets are never going to open again when they are now open the day after Christmas!

From the horses mouth for 2017:

https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/major-works-and-events/boxing-day-2017 (https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/major-works-and-events/boxing-day-2017)

For many, it's not about consumerism. It's about having the option of getting to/from family and friends without having to rely on the private car.

Yet again I also see we have the tired "Ooos gunna pay for it" argument. Same suspect trotting it out.  ::)

If TfL, certain lines, certain bus operators, scheduled coach operators, can all provide a service on the 26th December without resorting to eye-watering peak fares then it cannot be beyond the ability of all TOCs to do likewise.

I’ll happily predict certain Overground routes will also have a Boxing Day service within a few years.

I can appreciate Broadgage’s centiments too, but I’m afraid that is not the direction opinion in the country is heading in.  The railway should be prepared to adapt to those changing opinions and priorities of the public - whether they suit it or not.

I suspect that the economics of running boxing day services are now less favourable than a few decades ago.
There are many expenses in running a railway, but some of these are now more transparent than was the case years ago.

In say 1960, the extra costs of running trains on boxing day were probably confined to wages and fuel used by the trains, coal, diesel fuel and traction current.
It was a simple matter to compare these expenses with the fare revenue and decide that it was either profitable or not profitable but still worth it as a public service.
The trains were expensive to build but long lasting, and I very much doubt that anyone counted the cost of the slight extra wear and tear by use on boxing day. I cant imagine a director stating in 1960, "if we use this engine on boxing day, it will have to be scrapped on August 22, 1967. If we do not use it on boxing day it will last until August 23, 1967"

Likewise building and maintaining the track was expensive, but was not costed per day of use. I cant imagine a director in 1960 stating "if we run trains on boxing day, the annual cost of p-way maintenance will increase from £363,000 to £364,000"

So in 1960, the costs of using already existing and maintained track and rolling stock were in effect zero. The only extra costs were wages and traction fuel.

I doubt if fuel for non traction purposes was costed per day. Much more likely that "Outer worzelshire station costs about £200 a year to heat and light"  rather than "it will cost an extra £1 to heat and light it on boxing day"

These days costs are more directly attributable, track access costs a certain amount per mile per train, use of the train is also increasingly directly per mile. How much for an extra days use of an IEP ?
All this may or may not increase total costs, but it certainly discourages extra use of existing assets.

I would like to see some kind of service.  I don't think it needs to be fast or intensive use all the lines or all the stock or even run for the full day, but something that serves most stations and gets people were they want to go.

  The flip side of all this of course if that the ToCs have accountants who know exactly what it is costing to have their capital investment sitting idle for a day. 

Probably contracted that way with Hitachi. God knows how much they'd want for their staff to work Christmas night to prep their IETs for Boxing Day

I should imagine a few staff will be working at North Pole for Hitachi ensuring continuous coverage over Christmas anyway, just as do at Old Oak Common.

To be honest I would like to see the problems that voluntary working on a Sunday causes to the weekend schedule year round solved before we worry about Boxing Day.

I quite agree, Bob.  Talks with drivers unions regarding exactly that are ongoing.

Plus all those signalmen along the way in those days, and having just about every station staffed in addition to the on-train staff of at least three (for steam trains).


I can appreciate extra maintenance costs ... but hadn't realised that if a 150 was used on Boxing Day it would have to be withdrawn from active service a day earlier.  I understood that certain trains (such as the HSTs) had in fact already been in service a little longer than was initially planned.

A very good point.  I'd also like to see the new fleet introduced and the electrification finished first, but I do think that the time for a boxing day service is coming soon.  The number of young people living in cities and without cars (who are just the demographic who spend Christmas holidays travelling between home and parents and boy/girlfriends parents)  is increasing.

But suppose a service between, say Paddington and Bristol via Bath, calling at all major and a few minor stations, is introduced, running every 2 hours each way. The news stories would quickly change from "No trains" to "Not enough trains!" You wouldn't please everyone by a long chalk. Plus it would probably have to be bustituted at least part of the way because of engineering works, and that is where I think the nub of the problem is. It would probably not be hard to get some drivers working on Boxing Day by the simple expedient of waving a large wad of cash under their noses (worked for me for a few years), but you would have to do the same for Plan B. Would it be worth it?

And there in lies the rub - Almost need a peak service in the afternoon, certainly where the 27th was a workday. While pax would expect the cheapest fare on offer as its a public holiday & holidays are cheap to travel generally. Income wouldn't cover the outlays needed to run it.

I get that completely, but I do think that they could start with a tentative service at least.  Getting capacity and price right for a new service always requires some experimenting.

Indeed, Tim.  Start off small, the DOO routes from Paddington to Reading/Oxford/Newbury and Reading to Gatwick along with Thames Valley branches.  Then perhaps try extending to Bristol, Cardiff and maybe Plymouth.

You won’t find out what demand there is unless you try it.  I don’t think it will be as large as ChrisB thinks, and it will help dampen down the horrendous scenes we often see on the 27th.  Most important of all though is to wait until Crossrail and electrification works are complete so there are unlikely to be any major engineering possessions.  All ties in quite nicely to include the next franchise ITT if you ask me!

All makes a lot of sense to me.  Do you know if Crossrail is expected to run to Reading on boxing day (not 2017, obviously)?  If that is the case, GWR could even start with a simple shuttle from Reading to Cardiff VIA Bath/Bristol.  A single route but it would cover Reading, Bristol, Swindon, Newport, Didcot, Cardiff, Bath which are all towards the top of the list of GWR's busiest stations and would not require any extra signalling staff to be on duty.  Stations could be minimally staffed with timetable allowance made for longer train dispatches and possible engineering work. 

Crossrail will run on the 26th from 2019 I guess. Whether Reading & Slough will open their doors though (NR & GWR staff respectively) awaits to be seen