Great Western Coffee Shop

The Biggest shock of all with all the recently awarded franchises, the bearded one/Stagecoach loses XC. Expect them to win East Coast.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/winnernewcrosscounty

New rail franchise to increase capacity between major cities
The Department for Transport (DfT) today announced that Arriva plc has been awarded the contract to run the New Cross Country rail franchise.

It combines the majority of the existing Cross Country franchise services currently operated by Virgin Cross Country and the Nottingham - Cardiff and Birmingham - Stansted Airport services currently operated by Central Trains.

The new franchise will begin on 11th November 2007 and end on 1st April 2016. DfT has the right to terminate the franchise after six years if the operator fails to meet agreed performance targets. Over the life of the franchise (eight years and four months) DfT will pay a subsidy of ^1.056 bn (NPV) to Arriva.

The contract will deliver increased capacity, better performance and improved customer services. Passengers will benefit from:

40 extra train carriages for operation on long distance services, using High Speed Trains (HSTs), refurbished to the standard of the existing Voyager Trains. This, together with internal changes to the current fleet of Voyager trains, will provide nearly 3,000 more seats each day on the busiest routes at the busiest times. Internal changes on the Voyager trains will also provide for a 20-25% increase in luggage storage space;
Increased staff visibility with the busiest long distance services having at least three members of staff passing through the train;
A new web-based ticketing system which will be introduced from December 2009;
Refurbished Class 170 units on Birmingham - Stansted and Cardiff - Nottingham services including extra seats, and first class on all trains;
Help and advice for passengers who need to change trains.
The Government will continue to limit annual rises of regulated fares in line with national policy, which is currently RPI+1%.

As with all franchises, unregulated fares will be the responsibility of the operator. Arriva have indicated that they may wish to raise unregulated fares by an average of 3.4% above inflation each year.

Passengers will benefit from new arrangements to be compensated for delays and poor performance.
ENDS

But WHERE are they going to get the 40 carriages from let alone at least 10 power cars to attach each end of a rake of lets say 8 coaches to conjure up these HSTs. OK they might be able to modify loco hauled  Mk3's to run behind a class 43 PC but where are these spare class 43's or am I missing something somewhere.

Here are some more links on this.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/07/arriva_wins_uks_cross_country.html#more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6286904.stm

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/statecrosscountryrail

http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=297895&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

Having experienced the old Cross Country Network, before Virgin took over, and the dramatic improvements in the service offered by the current service over the past 10 years, I wonder if Tom Harris has made another blunder?

Or was the decision political, clearing the way for Virgin to get the GNER franchise?

Any views?

Pffffffffffft, imprpovments, please point me in the right direction

VXC have: Made a stupid timetable, which they couldn't do, so had to reduce services
Introduced crap voyager trains, with a decrese in coaches, more cramped interiors, uncomfy seats & smelly loos!

Sorry Simon I'm with Jim on this one. Yes Virgin have improved the frequency of services but with a crap replacement in Voyagers as the rolling stock. They had a golden opportunity back in the 90s to bring in decent rolling stock to replace the 47s and HSTs and chose a cheap imitation of a train in plumping for Voyagers which are completely unsuitable and way too short for long distance travel. Having said that Midland Mainline and Hull Trains have proved that you can make something decent out of them instead of allowing an airline person to design the carriage for you. Even first class on voyagers isnt anything to write home about.

I for one am celebrating the fact that Arriva have seen sense and are bringing back HSTs which says it all that a company feels to go back to the tried and tested trusty HST which has indeed stood the test of time and still comes out as one of the best diesel trains ever to run. I hope Arriva point out which services are run as HSTs so I can avoid the Voyagers.

Having written all of the above, it was not about the standard of trains, the smelly toilets, dodgy timetable, overcrowding, fares or punctuality that lost Virgin the franchise...it was money pure and simple! Like I said expect Virgin/Stagecoach to win East Coast. Please don't let Firstgroup get their grubby hands on it.

If Arriva can provide a service (both in terms of journey opportunities, fares and on-board services) which is equally or better to the current service offered by Virgin, I will be pleased.

No mention as to whether the Cardiff - Newcastle direct service is being retained  :(

Hi

It is very easy to look at any rail franchise and identify major failings, and for most of us who use FGW, it is twice as easy.

I am surprised that VXC lost the franchise because I believe that the Cross Country franchise they have managed over the past ten yours has improved more than any other. The dramatic increase in passenger numbers, in part, confirms this. The rolling stock ten years ago was exceptionally poor, and whilst I accept that Voyagers and Super Voyagers have many critics, I have yet to use one which has broken down, had a power or air con failure. Not something I can say for FGW, not even in the past 6 months.

The timetable did deteriate 2-3 yrs ago after a number of years of improvement. How much of this was Virgin's decision and how much was due to Network Rail/Dft changes I don't know.

The award of the franchise to Arriva has a number of interesting points, the most interesting is the re-introduction of HST trains. My major gripe with HST trains is the very poor facilities for the disabled. My wife works with Mencap and whenver she has to plan trips by train, it is a nightmare with FGW. Not all trains has disabled friendly toilets, and those that do only one ONE, typically in coach E. All Voyager, Super Voyager and Pendelino carriages have disabled friendly toilets. I find it shocking that in FGW's refit of its HST rolling stock it was not required to install modern disabled toilets on all carriages; perhaps I'm to niave, FGW/Dft sole goal was to cram as many people onto as few trains as possible. Is this Arriva's plan as well?


 

Further links on this.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/07/arriva_wins_cross_country_fran.html#more

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/07/national_express_fails_to_win.html#more

http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/07/arriva_to_reintroduce_30_yearo.html#more

A row has broken out over the fact that the new trains will be minus buffet cars (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17812249

There are also doubts over whether trains will call at Weston - super - Mare (link below.)
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17810761

i dont think that a trolley providing cold snacks provides a good enough catering service on even a shorter journey as bristol to birmingham, let alone bristol to aberdeen which is one i make regularly!   just think about it, over the 10 hours on board, you could have a sandwich, and a sandwich, and even another sandwich if they havent run out!!!  bring back BR!

Slowly but surely the rail companies are turning into low cost no thrills airlines. Some examples: catering (or lack of), fares structure (book early) and even the carriage layout! Not forgetting the amount of cancelled or delayed services. Who needs to take to the air when you can have a similar customer experience at 0 feet!

the new cross country website at www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk clearly shows that weston is part of the NCC network.  it does not say how many trains will call though!

i am also interested in knowing if the through cardiff - newcastle service is till part of SLC.  (SLC2 in particular).

i'd agree mate!  its not good :(

I don't understand, why was the Cross Country franchise sold to another TOC? Virgin were doing a great job, making more calls at W-S-M and others, had very friendly staff, were constantly upgrading the standard of their trains and network, and lowering prices. Why take it off them when their route was progressing so well? I felt the same thing about Wessex. They were building up a good reputation and a very decent service but were taken over by FGW and now look what's happened. I don't know why the government feels the need to constantly meddle with things that shouldn't be changed.

Also, their route map is wayyy too crowded on the South West routes...not a good start!  :-\

My understanding is that the main criteria are not the quality of the service or the price to passengers, but the ability to run the service to for the best financial position for the treasury, and (secondarily) to provide a service that doesn't require big network rail infrastructure investments, new trtain guarantees, etc.

I understand that the Virgin bosses have asked for a meeting with the DfT to help them understand why their bid didn't come out on top.   I am, frankly, guessing with my comments above.  The National Express / Wessex bid for the FGW frnachise was, I think, worth about 400 million less than the First bid and that was perhaps the most major factor in it going to First.   Why the franchises were joined .... don't ask me!

According to the link below.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

No Cardiff - Newcastle service in SLC2 specification.

1 train in each direction per day to WSM required.

Hi

Some of the earlier replies have criticised Virgin's decision to opt for Voyager trains, saying they are unreliable and too short.

Are they less reliable than HSTs? My experience with FGW suggests not.

Whenever I use VxC, it is noticeable the number of people that get on/off at every station. Would it make sense to have larger trains that are only busy for a small part of a journey, or to use extra services to handle that capacity that way?

Yes, it's all about money and little else...and my guess is that the joining of franchises would also save a bit of money! I'm definitely against big corporations running the majority of services, because it takes away the competition and focus on many of the smaller routes. And a result of that is usually higher prices and less bother when it comes down to what the public would like. A large company running local and intercity services is a mistake. Case in point-- again-- FGW!

Again, my case in point is that Virgin went above and beyond for passengers, one of the few companies left in which I felt they were catering for passengers' needs and it didn't all come down to money and bare minimum SLC specifications. As much as I like ATW, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Arriva axed the Newcastle-Cardiff service and did the bare minimum for W-s-M.

Yes, I also think they are reliable. Unlike others, I didn't mind travelling on Voyagers at all except when they were too busy. On my 3 years of travelling to Cheltenham there were only a handful of breakdowns or safety related cancellations. And I agree, it would be a good idea to use longer trains- an idea would be to use 2 x Voyager sets for busy periods as 2 voyagers coupled together form a high capacity peak service.

Here's another thing I noticed :

From the DfT link below :
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ncc/stakeholderbriefingdocumentn1632

"Catering will be provided on all trains with an at-seat trolley service in Standard Class, and complimentary tea/coffee and snacks in First Class."

From the following link :
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17812249

"A DfT spokesman said: "Given that it is a subjective matter whether individual passengers prefer buffet cars to trolley catering, the DfT does not specify catering but leaves it to the decision of individual operators."

The above statements dont seem to match....

I have emailed cross country trains through the email address given on their new website to ask specifically about the Cardiff service, but it bounced back as undeliverable!  :(

Quotes from the link below.
http://thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144913&command=displayContent&sourceNode=231190&home=yes&more_nodeId1=144922&contentPK=17812249

"Trolley services will be "totally inadequate" for passengers on the often busy routes between Penzance and Dundee, said Transport 2000 regional director Dave Redgwell."

"He told the Evening Post that the present cars would have their buffets ripped out and replaced with seating."

"Mr Redgwell said: "These are busy trains, with passengers having to stand at almost any time."

"They are absolutely packed liked sardine cans on Friday nights. A trolley service won't even be able to get through. They should be putting on more carriages, not taking out the buffet cars."

"Mr Redgwell said the watchdog group Travel Watch South West was also very concerned."

"We've spoken to many passengers and they want a proper buffet service, not just a trolley," he said. "We want the Rail Minister Tom Harris to review this decision. There was no mention of the buffet car service being lost when all aspects of the franchise came up for consultation."


In Annex B - Consultation Responses , there is a reply by "General Public" that reads as follows :

"Voyager units should be re-configured to enable more seating by removing 1 or 2 wheelchair size toilets and the buffet car."

It reminds me of the following response by a certain PJ Warry to the Greater Western Franchise Consultation (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/archive/2006/repfranre/appendixagreaterwesternfranc1911?page=6#a1005

"Supportive of Westbury-Swindon reductions as services not well used other than peak trains."

That was almost as concerning as the response from Phil Tilley of Wiltshire County Council :

"proposals to improve access to Melksham station are dependant upon provision of a suitable train service."

More info on that issue can be found in the link below.
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=268.msg715#msg715

One word - Money.

This is what is wrong with DfT and Rail companies

In Annex B - Consultation Responses , there is a reply by "General Public" that reads as follows :

"Voyager units should be re-configured to enable more seating by removing 1 or 2 wheelchair size toilets and the buffet car."


Thats it, pack us in like sardines, why not rip out the seating and make everyone stand. Should be able to increase capacity 50%.

Seriously, why don't they upgrade all Voyagers (2 Power and 2 carriages) to Super Voyagers (2 Power and 3 carriages), and if need be upgrade some more by adding another carriage or two.  If there is a pwer problem add an special power unit in the middle of the train.

How can anyone in their right mind suggest removing disabled toilets and buffet cars on long distance trains? Surely we need more than a bottle of fizz, crisps and chocolate on a 4 hour journey. I'm surprised that anyone can remove toilet provision for disabled people. Surely there is a law against it?

From Lee's links:


You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, Anne ... but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

1. The reluctance to leave one's seat is not a changing customer preference - it's a growing customer fear that someone else will take over the seat in a crowded train and leave one standing for the rest of a long journey!

2. There are a lot of very short journeys made, I know.   If the split was
        50% up to 1 hour
        22% from 1 to 2 hours
        11% from 2 to 3 hours
        7% from 3 to 4 hours
        5% from 4 to 5 hours
        3% from 5 to 6 hours
        2% over 6 hours
Then of every 100 people on the train at any given time, 47 are on there for 3 or more hours.   Anne's figure is misleading and skewed because she gives equal weight in terms on train use to Mr Brown travelling from Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway as she gives to Mrs Smith making a journey from Torquay to Birmingham

3. If you make everyone get off all the trains at Birmingham and join another train, then of course you'll cut down the average time that people spend on each train

Arriva spokeswoman Anne Leva said: "Research has found changing customer preferences, including an increasing reluctance to leave one's seat. This means the traditional on-board buffet or shop is not valued in the same way as it was once.


What and absolutely stupid statement for a spokeswoman for the incoming franchise operator to make, she should be hung, drawn and quartered.

Doesnt this stupid woman realise that besides leaving ones seat and having to stand when one returns to find it occupied there is NO FUN in fighting ones way to the buffet car in a can of sardines, and then fighting ones way back to their seat with the risk of spilling a hot beverage over other passengers.

Believe it or not , Stagecoach are removing buffet cars on their East Midland franchise HST services as well (link below.)
http://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.uk/midland.php

Quotes :

"What is happening to the present catering facilities?

We plan to remove the buffet cars on the HST's and replace with an at seat trolley service (standard class). We will continue to provide an enhanced catering offer in first class. We also plan to introduce a trolley service on the Meridians and to keep the current level of catering on the regional services.

Will there be a restaurant car on the morning services?

We plan to be able to offer some hot, good quality food for our first class customers."

One things for sure there are going to be plenty of spare MK3 buffet cars lying around sidings around the country though likely they will eventually end up getting scrapped. It really is becoming a budget airline style railway. Wonder if one day we will see Easyrail appear on the network?

When Arriva take over the CC franchise, will they be able to run tolleys along the carriages?

Yesterday I used Virgin CC from BPW to Taunton and the gap between seats is narrow.

If they do run trolleys along the carriages, there will be a lot of bruised shoulders as the tolleys hit customers.

Personally I feel that Cross Country is a burden on the tax payer, from dec 2008 nearly all services will start/terminate at Birmingham New Street, surely it would make more sense for FGW to run the services as far as Birmingham (mind you, they need to run what they've got properly first!) and for the services north of Birmingham to be spread between Northern and Traspennine Express. I really don't see how Cross country should be subsidised by the tax payer and yet other franchises pay a premium?

Good point. It was always the Cinderella part of the network back in the days of BR and IC. Its more of a convenience service for the handful of people who make that once in a year trip say from Plymouth or Bournemouth to see a relative who lives in say Carlisle or Berwick on Tweed. Virgin have really put it on the map thanks to the high frequency service on trains which quite frankly are travelling tin cans but people travel on them so something must be working. Most passengers on XC journeys are only on the train for a part of it's long journey.

If you were to split the XC franchise, which incidently has in part been done with the West Coast part bolted on to the West Coast franchise, first of all you would need to sort New Street out as its way over capacity and very user unfriendly.

The question of these redundant buffet cars has raised questions in my mind of why didnt FGW refurbish them and put HD standard class seating in rather than withdrawing them on the shorter trips.

Alternatively why not strip out the carriage shell, cut out bigger windows to the ones currently adorning these vehicles in the buffet area of the vehicle and make the vehicles a completely Standard Class Open vehicle.

I expect its the same old story, cost, indeed under the regime of today to make any alteration to the body of a vehicle I expect they would have to go through a safety case procedure for this to happen and no doubt the inflated fees that the so-called experts would command for such a procedure.

Personally, although its not my avenue of knowledge, aviation is more my line, I do not think the structural integrity of the vehicle would be compromised to such an extent that would preclude such a conversion exercise.

Comments from others more versed in the structural integrity a passenger rail vehicles welcomed.

It's not my area of knowledge either, but I understand that there is a bottleneck and delay caused by too much design work for upgrades and modifications at times.   That comment came to me w.r.t. the "West" fleet (14x, 15x) upgrades rather than the HSTs, but is indicative I suspect.

Why is CC such a burden on the taxpayer?

It trains are always full. It has grown, and out performed, every other inter city franchise since deregulation.

The initial idea of breaking up CC and allocating its South and West routes to FGW fills me with horror. Not because the idea has no merit, but because FGW cannot even manage itself at the moment.

Forcing all trains to start/terminate at Birmingham New Street requires BNS to have sufficient capacity to handle this. It doesn't. A through train stops for approximately 5 minutes, a terminating train stops for approximately 15 minutes.

More on this in the link below.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/6980550.stm

Tim Shoveller , managing director of East Midlands Trains , said the dining cars simply take up too much space.

"To have a restaurant car service often ties up two seats - the seat they are sitting on for their journey and the restaurant seat - we don't think that is the best use of space."

For members interest the latest Arriva Group Interim Results and Report published today 06/09/2007 and are available at ;-



http://www.arriva.co.uk/arriva/en/investor_relations/regulatory_news/rnsitem?id=1189058499nRNSF3709D&t=popup


I note that in the rail division there was a REDUCTION in profits of over 80% from ^5.9 million to ^1.1 millon in the 6 month period under review. Even so the report is upbeat on their winning the XC franchise and indicates the lower profits was in the main attributable to the costs of preparing three franchise bids in the same period.

Try telling the DFT, they're the ones that decided that trains will start/terminate at Birmingham New Street! My point about West country services being handed to FGW has got nothing to do with FGW's performance, it would be the same whichever operator was running the franchise.

CC is a burden on the tax payer because if it was spread over the three operators it would be paying a premium, why should FGW commuters be subsidising holiday makers using Cross Country?

More on this in the link below.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/09/higher_costs_hit_arriva_profit.html#more

Elsewhere , Go-Ahead says its rail business contributed strongly to its annual profits , but it has warned that next year will be tougher (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6982946.stm

Pre-tax profit rose 13% to ^94.8m in the year to the end of June.

Go-Ahead predicts falling profits from its rail businesses in the coming year because of "lower government subsidies and ongoing cost pressures".