Great Western Coffee Shop

was on the no shop voyager yesterday, and is it me or is this a complete lash up, the shop has been replaced by a bike store either side of a central aisle,{ with rumour being that no bikes can actually fit in the bike area}and a 153 type of luggage shelf.
Most of the tables have been removed, with the remainder positioned by one of the big window pillars. only the luggage stacks at the extreme ends of the saloons remain and the pitch of the seats has been closed up meaning the reservation displays now dont line up.
the seats have not been recovered and still have the comfort of sitting on an Iorning board.
the catering is now a trolley which managed to get through with ease ,but as the train was near empty this wasnt difficult.
comments please

I agree with the 'complete lash up' theory, dog box! ::)

the money they spent on this they could have hired locos and coachs and just took a couple of voyagers apart to make longer ones!

Haven't seen it yet. But by your descriptions it doesn't sound like anything special. Still, thats why we still have XC HST's.

relax109 is right here, they could have hired LHCS and given it a refurb similar to the HST's and then made longer voyagers.

But one things for sure, they need to fix the seating in the First Class on voyagers. The amount of times i've reclined a seat has moved but the back hasn't, which then exposes all the mechanism to your backside is quite frankly annoying...!  ::)

Virgin may have had their faults but I don't think that anyone could argue that they didn't have a bit of a flair for style and customer service. As soon as I read details of the Voyager "refurbishment" I had a nasty feeling that is there was an operator that was capable of making a Voyager less comfortable to travel in the XC would step up to the plate. I find the airline seating in the original Voyagers cramped (I'm tall, but not ridiculously: 6' 1") so god only knows what I'll find the new seats to be like. Incidentally, full marks to FGW for providing ample legroom for someone of my height at every seat in the HST refurbs.

I'm now actively trying to avoid XC in my travel plans: fortunately because their timings are so slow if I'm heading north from Oxford it's often just as quick to travel via London (and proper trains!) rather than Birmingham. I travelled to Keighley and back yesterday using FGW and NXEC which took almost exactly the same amount of time and was much more comfortable. It was also cheaper: when I booked XC advance purchase fares were very very thin on the ground, but I was lucky with the FGW/NXEC journey and got advance purchase tickets for about ^20 each way.

Cross Country are quite frankly awful, their customer service department is either incapable of replying to emails or completely crap!! They make my blood boil.  >:(

Agreed. I could go on for days about XC, but I wont, however I cannot resist these following points... ;D

From experience their catering department clearly hasn't heard of vegetarians...

And what good are the microwaves on the HST's if they refurbishment company hasn't even connected them to a power source.

Where is First Class? "At the rear sir" Train Arrives... ... ... Great, It's at the front *looks like a prat whilst sprinting to the other end of the platform* thanks for that >:(

Or, would you like some refreshments sir? Ok, I'll bring them to you now, 30 minutes later, no refreshments :(

Please don't think i'm a grumpy old fart, because I'm not, I just find XC's idea of a train company SHOCKING!!!

My personal view is that Cross Country are indeed rubbish, in terms of their lack of customer service.

However, as their services are generally 'full and standing' (or 'sitting on suitcases in the aisles', last time I travelled to Manchester), they just don't seem to care.  So, they're not too concerned about their refurb, on the basis that we 'mugs' will still travel on their 'cross country' routes, when we need to do so.

 >:(

Just got off a 4 coach XC Voyager,

Only one working toilet which you wouldn't want to use unless it was an absolute must. Also no paper  >:(

Full and standing. People sat in the vestibules, which made my trip to the buffet car somewhat less likely.  >:(

Fare Dodgers  >:( >:(

Kinda says it all really :P

Odd that a train service can go downhill so quickly really. I assume that the train crews are largely the same staff as worked under Virgin which suggests that there must be some truly inspirational management going on to elicit the precipitous drop in customer service standards that XC have achieved.

Given that the parent company is the same, I find my experience of XC difficult to square with my experience of Arriva Trains Wales - it may be a "bargain bucket" franchise running some fairly ratty old units but I'd happily use ATW over XC any day.

Voyagers are just completely unsuited for long distance XC travel and we have the SRA/Virgin to thank for that. Toilets being out of order on Voyagers are nothing new when you only have three on a four car train that is travelling the length of the country.


Sadly so am I if I'm heading north of Birmingham as I'd rather go via London. The HSTs that XC run don't operate at the times heading north when I would travel which is a bit of a shame as I was so pleased when I heard they were bringing them back  :(

Surely XC is the country's the least important franchise..... it doesn't serve London, so the national media aren't interested, and MPs probably don't use XC trains to connect into London trains, as they might with Scotrail and ATW. So however bad it may be, it won't get the attention that FGW got when it all went spectacularly wrong.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gtc6j/Inside_Out_West_Midlands_14_01_2009/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gtc6j/Inside_Out_West_Midlands_14_01_2009/)

This is worth viewing, as it shows the extent of the overcrowding on voyagers. No doubt they've deliberately picked the worst trains, but even so it shows just how unsuitable voyagers are. HST's used to get very busy on the routes, and that was when they had 7 carriages (averaging 400 seats - unrefurbished), rather than 4 (averaging 188 seats) or 5 (224 seats). Even the 6 car Mark II coaching stock had around 270 seats.

Also a 5 car 180 has 268 seats + 16 tip up seats in vestibules.

Data taken from http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20TRC%20Main%20Pages/Recognition%20main%20page.html (http://www.therailwaycentre.com/New%20TRC%20Main%20Pages/Recognition%20main%20page.html)

I know, they can run 142s doubled up. That would provide more seats and a new travelling experience for all!
It's strange to think that trains run to Barnstaple with more seating in them than those going from Plymouth to Leeds!

I think that going via London is only an real alternative if you are going to an ECML destination.  If you are going for a Midland Mainline or WCML destination, not only are there no through tickets via London but it also takes quite a bit longer.

Sadly no longer available to view which is a shame because I had heard about this Inside out report the other week and never got round to checking it out.

Ian Walmsey has a very good article in February's Modern Railways on how to design a coach interior to give mostly seats around tables with a few airline seats as well, so that every one gets a view out of the window. Plus luggage space.

I don't understand this obsession with running shorter trains because they damage the track less.

Not sure where I read it but Network rail are beginning to wonder if it's not the number of powered axles that matter not number of coaches.

It was always said the ride behind a Merchant Navy was always better West of Brookwood where the electrics departed.

Unfortunately, going via London is no go for me! If I am heading for NXEC destinations, then I board the XC service at B'ham.

Remember, don't blame XC for the trains they inherited.

Also: blame whoever decided that Virgin needed 5 more Voyagers last month (I am sure Chester could cope with a gap in its hourly service)!

Just think, we could have had 5 double voyagers going around AS WELL AS THE HSTs..... >:(

no you cant blame XC for the trains they inherited,,but the refurbishment is down to them

But they have had to do something.

It's either a crap refurb reducing legroom, or no luggage space / seats.

(ok - still not enough seats, but its an effort)

I also like the idea of bike space, which should prevent delays - provided platform staff direct cyclists to the correct coach.

The bikes don't fit in the bloody rack!!

;D

Oh dear.......... ::)

Personally, I agree that the refurb was rubbish (and that is down to Cross Country, as they specified it).

Also, the provision for cycles is indeed woefully inadequate (as it was with the rather Heath Robinson efforts of FGW, in their HST refurb).  One gets the impression that those designing such cycle storage have no real idea of the dimensions of the average adult bicycle, as they seem to persist in producing racks more suited to a child's tricycle.

 ???

A possilbe (but very unlikely) temporary solution.

VT reduce their service to B'ham and Manchester to 2 tph.

The freed up Pendolinos do B'ham to Scotland.

Extra Voyagers for XC until new stock arrives!!

CIS get given duff info from XC, and then it is up to us to ring CIS to get it changed.  I too dread any XC train coming in though as I just don't trust whether it is the right way round or not.  I tell people, stand in the middle and i'll wave like a crazy person when I see the front of the train come in  ;D

Of course XC tell me it is "up to FGW staff" to make sure it is right on our screens - which to an extent is true as Plymouth staff could verify before it leaves, but why XC cannot just get it right to start with heaven only knows  ::)

Then if it is a refurbed voyager you have to wave all the bikes to Coach D and not the rear of F.

XC HST design is spot on (apart from the lack of buffet car), however I was speaking with a buffet host on one last week who told me he can get through one coach at a time before needing to refill, and then when trying to get to the other end he is invariably stopped by passengers wanting a refill, so those at the wrong end of the trolley service may never get served!!

Yes, a very interesting article, I particularly liked "when customers say they want a seat, they dont mean that they want to sit with thiere knees behind theire ears in order that 4 more people can sit down, they mean that want an extra coach in order that 74 more people can sit down" (or words to that effect, dont have the article to hand)

There is a general belief among the public at large, that the railway industry has received large amounts of public money which has been spent on REDUCING train lengths.
Whilst the well informed members of this forum will be aware that this is not allways the case, regretably often it is. My local line (not FGW)  suffered total route modernisation some years ago, which meant 6 car trains replacing 8 car.
Waterloo to Exeter was also modernised, with 8 car loco hauled services downgraded to 3 car DMUs.

This was more accident than design though, Network SouthEast were looking for a solution at the same time as Regional Railways had ordered too many 158s and so the route ended up with the unused 158s classed as 159s.

The shopless voyager looks no different outside to a shopped voyager so Sda you must be faced with a bit of a problem second guessing  what variety of voyager it is.
Incidentally you would have thought the things would have been built to just be able to slot in another carriage to make them bigger, although i dont think this is very easy to acheive

My understanding of the XC refurbishments was that they were planning to take out the onboard shop and a toilet.

The shop I could almost understand because it is an absolute nightmare if you have 3 or 4 people trying to choose something to eat ::) But taking out a toilet I think is a very bad idea especially considering the amount of miles the trains run. Hence why a HST or LHCS would be more appropriate for the long distance. I'm sure i've said this before in another post, but the amount of MK2 sitting aroung the rail network not doing anything I think is criminal, considering the amount of overcrowding we have to put up with on this route.

On an update of my recent XC travels I have come to the conclusion that the catering department might as well not be in existance on XC. On the CIS at Temple Meads it said, At Seat Service Available on board. Get on, no at seat service. I was then informed that First Class passengers do not get anything south of Bristol ??? LIES!!! They said they had no food, what the FCH didn't realise is I saw him open the fridge, low and behold, enough food to feed an army ;D obviously didn't he like me ... ... ! :(

It isn't, a couple of years ago when Virgin were operating XC a five car SuperVoyager caught fire in one of the centre carriages I believe. They still wanted to use the train so it had to be converted to a four car unit. which means reconfiguring the onboard computer system. Which, I'm told, is a little tempermental

Shopless Vomits have a blue strip on the coupler.

Wonder though if adding would be more problematic than removing

The 'tow bar' (as I call it  ;D) at the front/rear of the voyager is normally yellow for first class A and black for quiet coach F.  The refreshed versions have a strip of blue down the middle of the bar, so as it splutters in you can see, and obviously there is the cycle logo on the side of coach D.

I was told by XC that they would put "XC Refreshed Voyager" on the CIS to let us know, however that's as reliable as FC at the front/rear.

They should not have re- painted the trains until they were re-furbed.

Agreed, It just confuses people.

I have firmly come to the conclusion that the majority of people on The Coffee Shop don't like them... :P

Maybe we should create an XC Rant Thread... ::)

Just a minor point, but all the toilets stayed put during the refit because it was decided it would be far too complicated to try to remove one.

The toilet removal was cancelled almost as soon after it was first mentioned. It was certainly not included in the AXC website page 'our plans' when they took over the franchise in Dec 2007, although the shop removal was shown.

Paul

Oh right, fair enough. Apologies for any confusion :)

Removing a loo would be a bad idea anyway, we don't want a fiasco like FTPE... ::)

Did they perhaps consider removing the buffet but adding another toilet in lieu?




_{Sorry ... I'll get my coat.  ::)}

No, it just confuses train spotters; 99% of the passengers don't give a monkey's what colour their train is. And a significant proportion still think they're run by Virgin...

But given that the refurbed and unrefurbed trains have significantly different internal layouts, particularly as regards cycle storage, it would have made life easier for platform staff!

That's fair enough, I suppose.

Yes, I meant platform staff.

And train users who know what's what.

I will be travelling on XC next week, and will report back.

you may get lucky and get one of there hst's

No, I am going North in the morning and South in the afternoon.

The HSTs do the opposite, and as they are based in the North, I'll be very lucky if I get one.

I have picked a seat with a good view on the old layout. So fingers crossed it is not a refurb Voyager!
 ::)

Don't get me started on the stupid timings of the HSTs!!

They do at least allow 8 HST journeys to pass through Birmingham each day, this would be not be the case if some had to start at the South West.  This is however of does not benefit like myself that are going north from the South West in all cases.  How Virgin were ever allowed to get away with ordering 4 coach underfloor engine DMUs that were clearly not up to the job of running an intercity service from Plymouth to Edinburgh, I don't know.

And (sorry for saying it again) did Virgin really need those 5 Voyagers from XC?

If Chester could have its off peak service reduced to 2 hourly, there could be more double Voyagers.

Why Didn't Virgin Hire and Refurb LHCS, using their 57's to haul it..? Then we would have more voyagers. Alternatively why don't XC Hire LHCS and some 67's and give it a similar refurb to the HST? IMO it would be quite popular ;D

If they are going to use LHCS, they may as well use an electric loco rather than running a diesel under the wires on a completely electrified route.

This is true, but using their 57's would be cheaper because they are already paying for them, Also they can operate to places where the overhead wires don't go e.g. Holyhead

Exactly, XC need the Voyagers a lot more than VT!

The gov should recognise this.

Hopefully, the Pendolino order will enable some Voyagers to be transferred across.

better plan give virgin all the voyagers and we could have pendelino drags with 57's down south hehe  :) ;)

There is a very good reason why Virgin need Super Voyagers, because they need 125mph tilting stock to operate on the WCML with the new high-frequency timetable.

I know they are planning to use a set of Mk3s for a Friday-only relief to Preston but at the moment Cargo-D can't supply the stock as W&S still hasn't got its own Mk3s in service and it isn't going to leave Euston until 18.46 in order to path it at 110mph non-tilt amid after the main peak rush.

There aren't enough trains to go around full stop, as we know full well in FGW land. And I wait to see what cunning plan they have for the summer once the Adelantes have gone - silly me, that would be a grubby Turbo to Oxford and the Cotswolds, wouldn't it? Another lousy day for HST availability, with 180s on the 15.51 PAD to Worcester, 15.48 Cheltenham and 17.51 Worcester (booked duty)  The Worcester pair were on Oxford/Cotswold services all day.

What, you mean take trains away to give to a service that doesn't even serve London? How absurd! All those silly people who can't squeeze on a Voyager at Birmingham should simply travel to London instead!  :D

all London routes should be taken off the franchise scheme and given to private companys to invest and make money on them but they need strict regulation see what happens when toc's see all there profits things would finally improve!

No, all routes should in public ownership and not run for the benefit of shareholders.  If you have a private company running them, profit will always come before service.

more competitition and more profits would improve service it there two routes for you to chose one new trains on time with a seat and great service and one an old banger packed out and your standing which would you choose it's a no brainer!?

You are assuming the private companies will use any profit they have to improve services rather than paying it to shareholders.  In many cases this is not the way it works in business.

.

Maybe I should have clarified regulated

Companys must meet comunity set targets and goals

What would be the point of having a private company if it's going to be so heavily regulated?  A public company would do the job quite well, would not put profit before service and any profit it could be reinvested without having to consider shareholders.

What we need is 4 companies:

Company 1 to operate Long Distance IC Routes
Company 2 to operate Local/Medium Distance Routes
Company 3 to operate London Commuter Services
Company 4 to operate Tram Routes e.g. Manchester & Tyne and Wear Metro's

Then we don't need to change the livery every franchise.

If it were to be a government owned group, then any profits made should go towards the following:

Improving Reliablity of existing trains
Updating rolling stock to next generation of trains, e.g. IEP
Improving/Upgrading existing signalling systems
Reimplement the ticketing structure.
Propose HS2

and probably most important, Improving the network capacity in key area's e.g. Birmingham New Street, Reading, Bristol and ECML.

Having just re-read that I have come to the conclusion I am proposing a Re-nationalisation of the Railways... ;D

Intericty?
Regional Railways?
Network SouthEast?
You will need to think of a name for this.
As long as we don't get 4 car underfloor engine DMUs on Paddington to Penzance.
I agree, I'm just not sure basing it on business sectors and not regions is the best idea.  BR was an engineering led railways before the 1980s sectorisation policy when it changed to a business led railway.

I Agree, Sitting on a Voyager from Bristol to Newcastle, is not fun. I changed at York for the delights of an IC 225 ;D which was good and really enjoyable considering I had never travelled on one before. Shame at the time GNER couldn't keep their HST's in as good a condition... :(

[/quote]
I agree, I'm just not sure basing it on business sectors and not regions is the best idea.  BR was an engineering led railways before the 1980s sectorisation policy when it changed to a business led railway.
[/quote]

Definately. What I liked about BR was that each region was responsible for it's own track and repairs etc. Also there wasn't any of this messing around with pointless liveries. which granted some look good, but others don't do the trains any justice. take a look at NXEC for example...  ::)

Nowadays, theres so many contractors in the Railways, things such as engineering works, take much longer than actually necessary...

To be fair to Virgin they ordered the trains when rail travel was in decline. It was when these units went into service that passenger numbers started to rise. XC was always the arse-end of BR InterCity and 15 years later, not much has changed in the private sector!

and to be fair on the voyagers there decent trains just not fit for this purpose! would be perfect for say manchester airport to blackpool but not longer distance

 :o :o :o :o
WHAT? ???

I could rattle off a 30 odd list of reasons why Voyagers a cr*p.

I have done so before on other threads. ;)

Don't tempt me... >:(

Please, no....

Rail traffic was already rising when Virgin ordered them, it always does when the economy is doing well.

The main problem was that at the time they were ordered, hard-headed railwaymen, aka Chris Green, were not involved with the business, so silly ideas like three classes (on a two-class railway) were given a hearing and by the time anyone said 'hang on', Bombardier in Bruges were merrily fitting those three disabled toilets, instead of the one that should have gone in at the end of first class where it met standard, nor did anyone ask 'what happens if a higher frequency attracts more passengers?'

But whatever their faults, they don't break down and I'd rather ride in one than such delights produced by the BR modernisation plan as the Cravens DMU. How my heart sank when one of them turned up on the train home from school in West Yorkshire instead of a refurbished version of the local speciality, the Met-Cammell Class 102 power-twin, packing 600hp for 64 tons.

Oh I am not sure about this, I find it quite difficult to decide which is better.  Having traveled between Cheltenham and Leeds perhaps 50 times last year for work, we ended up finding reasons for going via London or if we couldn't we changed trains at Birmingham and went to Manchester on a Pendalino (however it is spelt).  Our only saving grace was when XC re- introduced the HSTs. Even then the passenger loading was far to great for a HST, but at least you don't get the constant vibration and noise of the voyager engines, and this of course was the biggest problem with the 1st generation DMUs.

My biggest worry is that the HST's are now 40 years old, and, whilst still the best passenger rolling stock on the railways seem likely to be replaced by something Voyager-like and much, much, worse. 

My biggest hope is that XC manage to purchase some extra coaches to insert into the Voyagers (I know they can be at least 6 coaches) and that at least one of these will not have an engine under it. Then I can ride in that one.

Don't worry Willc, I've learnt to control myself now! :P

To be fair, they have big windows (if you have a seat with a view) and they speed up/slow down quickly.

They are probably better for the environment. 8)

But I still hate them! ;D

PS: "They don't break down" Dawlish sea wall? Computer problems? They do break down! :o

PPS: Any train like a voyager will always have all power coaches. Bad luck Don. :'(

Quite frankly - pre refurbishment they were were s**t!!!!!!! Post refurbishment I have no idea  - for my monthly trip from Oxford to Manchester I now drive. They are, without doubt, the most appalling things on the network. Without overeacting if I had the choice of Oxford - Manchester on a Voyager or a Turbo the Turbo would win hands down! Branson has got one hell of a lot to answer for! The last time I travelled by train back from Manchester we sat in Wolverhampton for 15 minutes because the thing was so rammed that half the people trying to get on it couldnt - but hey, I am sure the extra 14 seats make all the difference! Based on the fact that the original legroom was appalling I dread to think what the refurbs are like and I dont intend finding out! 

Rarely and these are hardly the fundamental flaws which still afflict Adelantes to this day.

I suspect that if they had been built as the seven or eight-car sets they should have been, people probably wouldn't hate them quite so much, since they would be able to get a seat. The interior treatments of the EMT Meridians and Hull Trains Pioneers are generally reckoned to be better than Virgin's effort.

You may not like sitting on top of a big Cummins diesel, but since HST production ended in 1982 and everyone else in Europe uses electric trains for long-distance work, the likes of Voyagers and Adelantes were all that train builders were prepared to offer.

They won't be lengthened because no-one is going to pay for it - and remember the utter shambles DafT made of Pendolino lengthening - so hope for an early start on electrification.

Making the best of a bad job, see if you can book first class advance - as the current thread in Fares Fair points out, it is often cheaper and legroom certainly isn't a problem in that coach - and never, ever travel XC on a Sunday afternoon or evening.

The Voyagers are not really being refurbished though, more like 'modified'. Nothing is done to the train in general, just 'work in wake' of the changes.  The extra seats are the ones originally taken out when the extra luggage stacks were fitted, noticeable because their upholstery hasn't had 5 or 6 years of wear and tear.

Paul

They are badly designed trains. The big issues like the underfloor engines and the fact that they are too short can be blamed on the economic environment/franchise spec/operator greed/whatever at the time, bit I give you a list below of faults which are nothing to do with money just a question of bad design:

1,Scrolling reservation displays
2,internal doors that close on people
3,shop in the middle of the train so two queues form (Why on earth did Branson think that a shop was better than a buffet counter)
4, luggage racks that get a better view than the seats
5, too many disabled toilets with unreliable doors
6, the smell
7, too small toilet tanks
8, space wasting luggage racks (filling a space with two small racks rather than one big one so that space is wasted by the rack itself
9, having a space next to where the sliding internal doors open into just big enough for a suitcase which incourages people to put a suitcase there and jam the doors.
10, putting hand dryer next to automatic tap so that when you dry your hands the tap switches on and wets them again!

They should win an award for bad design.  Good design is a question of coming up with the best possible product within the limitations imposed on you.  Bad design is taking a bad spec and making it worse
 

Well as for the engines, the Trans-Pennine trains - 3 coaches, with very powerful engines are both more comfortable and quieter.

And as for the 1st class, each Voyager has the huge number of 19 seats.  Just 19, which means that there are occasions when I have seen 1st class passengers standing (and complaining). 

Oh and for the record, you can still smell the toilets in 1st class.

Restart BREL and build some more Mk3 coaches and HST power cars that's what I say - limited need for re-design and the ability to replace the power cars with electric traction at a later date (which will probably never happen anyway).

I think really what we need is simply newer coaching stock. When the 43s give up the ghost, order a load of 67s and job done. Whenever electrification happens you then only need to replace the locos with electric ones.

Yes, I am looking forward to my first "First Class" journey (and I have a seat reservation so will make a huge fuss if anything goes wrong).

Free food besides; the journey will be relaxing and I will DEFINITELY get a table AND a view. So actually, it'll be like a table seat in standard class for most operators!

Tim, you have added yet more reasons to why Voyagers are cr*p.  ;D

They are AWFUL. Another problem is the CISs at the ends of each carriage. They need space for 2 rows of text, so the top can say "Birmingham New Street" while the bottom scrolls all the H&S nonsense (mind the gap etc.) which nobody reads, but XC have to display due to H&S. When the train is moving, the top can say "Coach D" while the bottom scrolls "Shop Open: which sells x..y..etc".

The door cycle is also too long (although at least there is no silly European style step to fold out) leading to longer dwells than necessary.

Or even an ordinary non-electronic sign with the coach letter on it.

Yeah I don't like the way you have to stand and wait for four doors to open between each carriage, as you walk through the train looking for a working toilet, or seeing if you can get to the shop before they've sold the sandwich.

So no-one was prepared to build a loco and coaches combination?

The InterCity 225s were built after HSTs.

The proposed InterCity 250s, which were only shelved due to money shortages (the money being spent on Networkers instead), were to be build well after HSTs.

And Eurostar.

So loco + coaches was still on the agenda.

I am sure that GM would be happy to offer a passenger class 67 varient at a reasonable price

Not quite, the InterCity 250 was as you say cancelled (possibly due to impending privatisation) but there was then a plan to order some InterCity 225s for the WCML but the funding for this went on the networkers instead.  It should also be noted that had the Intercity 250 been built, there was a plan was to cascade mark 3 stock the Cross Country routes and so no Voyagers.

What a shame the project was shelved. We would have a 155 mph WCML :'( :'(, and no Voyagers. :'( :'(

I was referring to the numerous complaints about sitting on top of 750hp of diesel and the fact that no-one anywhere builds a high-speed diesel train anything like an HST and hasn't since 1982 and didn't when Virgin was looking for new stock.

The Class 91/Mk4 train is effectively a high-speed electric unit train that only has one power car - the locos hardly ever run blunt cab first and then only in an emergency and they don't come off the trains for a diesel to replace them. Intercity 250 was designed as an electric-only train for the WCML. Eurostar is an electric unit train, etc. None is what anyone would recognise as a classic separate loco and coaches design.

Virgin did, I seem to remember, consider loco haulage when planning its new fleet, but instead opted for a 'go-anywhere' DMU design, hence the Voyager.

And GM is highly unlikely to be offering any more Class 67s. Network Rail has never liked them due to the 22.5-tonne axle loading and the impact they have on the track, and I'm pretty sure they have never been allowed to run above 110mph except in testing, so couldn't keep to XC timings.

isnt gm working on a new loco?

And the acceleration on a Class 67 is pretty woeful - far inferior to any recent DMU/EMU design even when hauling short trains like the W&S services.

Whilst I like the Class 67. They can be very loud. I was sitting on the platform at Bristol Temple Meads debating whether or not to get a cup of tea, to have my decision making rudely interupted by a revving Class 67. It was loud, Loud enough to make your eyes water...  ::)


Those points i've highlighted are the things I hate most about voyagers. I find the toilet smell to be worse in First Class for some reason. Whats even more annoying is when you are trying to get to the shop to get some food, and the negociating of the many doors between First Class and the shop... GRRR

Don't even get me started on the toilets. I remember once using one, only for the door to open randomly. Which then wouldn't close!!! Rather embarrassing... :P

Not to mention that the toilet itself is positioned in the WORST position, should the door suddenly open! ;)

 ??? Its a gigantic diesel engine & alterntor set on wheels. What else is is supposed to be!?

If you think a Skip is noisey, you should think back to when the HSTs had Valenta engines or before that, when 33s/37/47s etc where on the 'locals'.

I'd forgotten how loud the Valenta turbo was... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ICcOu0NkM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ICcOu0NkM)

i remember as a kid being scared of those things! they were soooo loud !

When I was about 5 I went with my Dad to Temple Meads just to look at the trains. It really was something special. Most of the stock either HST's or Local Hauled, with the occasional 158/150. Back when it was all InterCity and Regional Railways livery and not to forget the Royal Mail Train. Now in 2009, The station has hardly changed.


Agreed. ;D I once travelled from Plymouth to Birmingham on a Voyager. Came back down to 1st from the Buffet, only to be greeted by a drunk blokes privates. I don't know who was more embarrassed, me, the bloke or the poor lass stood behind me ;D

i have seen someone trying to exit the toilet and the door opening by about an inch but as the corridor was packed with people standing and a couple were leaning against the door it suddenly jammed.... what a horrible place to get trapped! we managed to open it for her but as you can guess she was slightly embarraced

Until recently, Cross Country Voyager trains used to stop at Nailsea and take some of us into BTM.  As it was only a ten minute journey (and the train was already fairly busy), I tended to just stand in the vestibule for the duration.

What I found rather amusing on such journeys was observing the apparently random door opening mechanism on the Voyagers: the cubicle door would either open and close periodically of its own volition, or someone standing outside an unoccupied toilet cubicle would be jabbing frantically at the 'open' button, to no effect - or someone would be inside, frantically jabbing the 'close / lock' button, with similar lack of effect!

Methinks the designer of the toilet door switches installed on Voyagers had a very dodgy sense of humour! ;) :D ;D

Ah, those were the days. Especially as for the last 3 months they were HST's not Voyagers. Does anyone "in the know" know the backround to the Nailsea and Yatton XC stops, why they started, and why they've now finished?

I saw a rather amusing mobile message in The Metro txt section a couple of weeks back, I have it here:


*disclaimer* - By the quote in the post above I am in no means condoning or recommending any such behaviour as socially or legally acceptable ;D

not legally anyway..