Great Western Coffee Shop

In yesterday^s Mail there was an article covering a number of handy tips to reduce the cost of rail travel, and included examples of split purchasing and the CIV option when buying Eurostar tickets.

They have all been discussed in various topics here, but would it may be of value if a sticky could be created here to save casual visitors trawling through older posts, and possibly asking members similar questions.

Unfortunately it wasn^t my copy of the paper but if any members have yesterdays paper (or have access to the online version) it may be useful to duplicate it here.

Thanks for posting that, tramway.

Unfortunately, we have copyright issues if we were to quote (or reproduce) the whole article here.

However, I can offer a link to the Daily Mail's website version of that particular article, at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/article-1128484/The-page-saves-money-Keep-spending-track-cheaper-train-fares.html

Chris.  ;)

The National Express East Coast discount is only for National Express East Coast Advance fares.

There's a good guide available on the Chester-le-Track website at http://www.chester-le-track.co.uk/6946_CLT_June08-2.pdf (http://www.chester-le-track.co.uk/6946_CLT_June08-2.pdf).

And may not even apply any more. I did not apparently get the discount when I booked an NXEC advance fare from LDS to KGX the other day, using their website.

The suggestion "try calling on your way to the station" is idiotic, given that even if you opt to collect tickets from a FastTicket machine there's a time delay of around 2 hours before your journey details are uploaded.

It's a typical piece of lazy Daily Mail bilge IMHO. Money-saving tips: "consider all options", "avoid peak prices" and "look out for special offers".

No sh*t.

You wouldn't, it has fdefinitely finished. Apparently it was meant to be an introductory discount to encourage use of their website. It worked, so it's ended.

Paul

Chris

I did look on the Mail website honest, but couldn^t find the article to post the link.  :(

You are right ^duplicate^ was probably the wrong expression, but there are certainly elements that I thought were worth repeating that are frequently posted by members in response to questions. I^m unsure how many casual users browse this area looking for info when the majority of the time all they require is this advice.

I_B, I^m no fan of the Mail either, and I^m sure it could be improved with input from the experts here if it was considered a worthwhile exercise.

Perhaps the answer is just some useful links if there is a definitive guide, I^ll admit that I hadn^t come across the Chester site previously, or if so had completely forgotten about it, and of course NXEC has to be the best for comparison purposes.

I^m sure there will always be obscure CoC questions that can only be answered by the experts.

tramway, apologies if I was a little flippant in my post last night. It wasn't meant to be construed as an attack on the idea of providing a money saving guide which is entirely admirable! I was not in a good mood when I got home yesterday and I think it shows. Sorry.

As far as obscure CoC questions go I've found in the past that knowing the CoC is not a lot of use in many situations because some rail staff don't (or pretend that they don't to avoid having to assist!). My worst experience of this was a journey from Bristol to Whitland on a day when ATW had an acute driver shortage and was operating no service west of Carmarthen.

The ATW duty manager at Swansea refused to provide any assistance to get me home from CMN, even though I had been sold a ticket and therefore under the CoC he was obliged to get me there. I ended up forking out for a taxi (^30!) and had a long battle to reclaim the fare from ATW.

Why don't we (as a forum) pool all of our knowledge in a post, which can then be "stuck" for casual visitors to see?

I bet with the range of people here, we could get pretty impressive advice for people!

That's great thinking.

I used to be an advocate for using the National Express East Coast website to book tickets, but seeing recent news about them potentially pulling out of running trains altogether, I shall no longer press for that to be the first piece of good advice.

Great Idea. Let's vote in Relex 109 to proof-read and edit written material. ;D

They have won awards for that website! I do hope another TOC buys the software, because it is VERY good.

Where shall we start this list? A new thread, or this one?

Right - there are lots of excellent ideas here, which I agree we ought to be able to progress - as a public resource - provided by this forum!

If I may suggest a new topic, devoted entirely to such 'hints and tips' for our public audience (possibly avoiding jokes at poor relex109's expense - as he says, he went to Sidmouth College: give him a break! ;D )?

I'll undertake a quick 'confer' with the admin team here, on the format of a new board offering general advice on 'saving money on train tickets' - and I'll probably end up with the task of writing it myself!  ::) ;D

This is the best idea I've heard yet!

Just for the benefit of our members here ... you wouldn't believe the amount of support I've received, from my fellow moderators - if only on the work allocation aspect! :o

Actually Chris I don't think it would be a huge task as the bulk of it is probably in the original article with a little bit of editing to give a bit more of a local flavour, with possibly examples of split ticketing for the 3 core areas in the FGW territory, that members use succesfully.

Another one would be useful tips on getting to St Pancras, sadly I have yet to investigate that one as I haven't had to use it since they moved. Actually on that note there is (was?) an 'Any Dutch' station ticket that isn't advertised on the web site, but they will gladly not charge the phone booking fee if you point this out.

Tramway makes a good suggestion about including tips with "local flavour" only.  We need to avoid getting into too much confusing detail if it is for the passenger.  might I suggest a few guidelines to be argued over:

1) keep it local.  FGW area only, whatever that means
2) keep it relevent.  We should ignore anything that is best answered on a case-by-case basis and anythingthat is so complicated that it will either cause Joe Blogs to do it wrongly or will confuse or annoy the average TM.  We don't want to be getting members of the public into arguments over the C of C especially if they don't fully understand that document
3) keep it structured suggested headings might be a) advanced tickets (advice on getting best deal, warning about lack of flexibility),  b) peak / off peak explanation (saving money by travlling at a different time),  c) routing (saving money by travelling a different route, d) seasontickets, e) advanced tricks (rebooking and booking beyond).  f) Local examples. g) rights when things go wrong (ie, if you miss your connection can you travel on a different train/route - when can you claim compensation for delays?)
4) do the easy stuff first - the most important routes, the greatest savings etc

Here is an example I did yesterday for a LM/XC journey. Feel free to use as an example in the thread.

Kidderminster to York ^70

By splitting the ticket at Birmingham, I saved ^30!

It worked because the Kidderminster to Birmingham section is within peak periods (and railcards are not valid), and the XC section is off peak (railcards valid). If you buy the ticket in one, you have to pay the peak, non railcard ticket!

Railcards are valid at all times on that route.  Only restriction is YP card has a minimum fare - is that what you mean?

That must be it, although the website seemed to suggest that my railcard was not valid before 9.30.

However, the main part of my saving was due to the peak / off peak split! ;D

Here are a few of my top tips:

1. Never use thetrainline.com - they charge a booking fee and a credit card fee. The overwhelming majority of train company websites (including FGW's) use exactly the same system (and the tickets will be posted to you from thetrainline's office in Edinburgh) but do not charge any fees: you just pay for the ticket. National Express East Coast http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com (http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com) has a booking engine that allows you to see which trains the cheap fares are available on much more easily than other systems, allowing you to adjust your journey plans and save money.

2. Only use Advance tickets if you can find singles for both portions of a return journey: do not be tempted to buy an Advance single ticket for one leg and an Off-Peak single for the other. Why? Because the Off-Peak return fare is generally only ^1 more than the Off-Peak single. Buying an Off-Peak return in this situation therefore saves you money and gives you greater flexibility.

3. On a related point, never buy an Off-Peak single: the return costs only ^1 more (or ^0.65 if you have a railcard). You have a month to use the return portion of the ticket and so may well find an opportunity to do so, even if only for a small part of the journey that the ticket covers: this is entirely legitimate since Off-Peak returns permit you to break your journey at intermediate stations en route.

Folks, I have stated off with "my" first attempt at this - taking on board the suggestion to keep it within the FGW area, and trying to do it category by category - not always easy, as some overlap.  You'll find a sticky thread at the top and I welcome posts of corrections and clarifications.  I and other moderators will cut things into my post (part of which has been overtaken by ideas here) and hopefully we'll have a good, ongoing resource.  Also, we'll break out to discussion threads.

"Note to self" .... need to go back and add: 
* St Pancras and Eurostar aspects.   
* Which web sites offer the best bargains / where do you get stung for credit card charges?

My advice:

Always check whether a section of your journey is off peak. If so, split your peak ticket into 2 - a peak ticket and an off peak ticket.

Also split if a part of your journey goes through a "local transport authority" - their fares will be lower.

I was told at Taunton station in 2003/2004 that a court ruling on this went against a passenger that tried doing this on Thames Trains.  I phoned Thames Trains to ask about it and was told that the person in question was using a peak ticket from Paddington to Southall and then an off peak ticket beyond Southall and that the person lost the case in court.

I think the waters were muddied in that case because there was an issue over zonal tickets being used, on a train that did not call at the boundary (the complainant was a Dr Hack-Polay; the case was covered in detail by Barry Doe at the time, who was of the opinion that suing was the wrong way to make the complaint and Dr Hack-Polay would have had more joy from a complaint to the erstwhile RPC)

The NRCoC are crystal clear: you are absolutely entitled to use two tickets for your journey, as long as the train calls at the point where your tickets change over. If this enables you to use a peak ticket for part of the journey and off-peak for the remainder then that is a legitimate money-saving tactic.

Remember that TOC staff must abide by the conditions of carriage and have no authority to change or waive them. Further, booking clerks must sell you split journey combinations if you request them (although I think that they are actually forbidden from suggesting them). If anyone has been denied the opportunity to split a journey through some staff misunderstanding that particular court case then a complaint to the TOC concerned should result in a refund of any extra money you had to spend.

I was denied sale of split journey tickets at Bath in 2005.  A complaint to FGW resulted in a refund, an extra ^25 of vouchers and a very long detailed and grovelling appology.  I have never had problems since

If I want to go from Newton Abbot to Birmingham for the day, a combination of four off peak day returns (NTA - TAU, TAU - BRI, BRI - CNM, CNM - BHM) costs ^48.60.  The off peak return fare from Newton Abbot to Birmingham New Street is ^73.70 so by using the combination of four tickets I can save ^25.10.  Could Newton Abbot refuse to sell me a combination of four tickets?

No.

Thanks, I guess I just have to insist if they try to refuse it.  Twice at Taunton they tried to refuse me a combination of TAU - NTA and NTA - EXD when it was cheaper than TAU - NTA, both times they did issue it when I insisted but I got the impression they were a bit annoyed about it most times I went in and asked for that combination.

Absolutely right. If they do refuse then write in to FGW and reclaim the difference. It's a bit more work for the clerk to issue 4 tickets but you are totally within your rights under the CoC to request them (especially when it can save you that much money!).

As much as I hate to stand in front of a booking office window trying to sort out cheapest fares I^m afraid that is the only thing to do until the ridiculous fares structure is sorted.

I have every sympathy with the staff, and other waiting passengers, as it took me the best part of 20 minutes running the options in my Ellesmere Port thread. Apparently you can^t split the single to Ellesmere from Bristol via Stoke so paid the separate tickets. And it was only after I said that I could get from Ellesmere to Newport for ^10 after a quote for ^32 (Newport/Filton is certainly less than ^22) did I get the price I was after. All told just over 40 quid for the round trip, from a minimum of ^59.30 for the Off peak return.

Indeed - on the occasions that I use a split ticket I feel somewhat embarrassed.  But ... where the regular fare being offered is very high (I tend to judge in pence per mile) I feel morally as well as legaly justified.  That's not to say that in some cases  there are some on the TransWilts) the fares are so low that they kill the economic case for a train service, and on there I actually wish that the cheaper fares were 25% higher because THAT would make the economic case stack up for a proper service.

I have found that 9 times out of 10 (at least), the operations (at least) the operations staff are very helpful and curteous when asked for split tickets, especially if you're very clear about what you're asking them for.  A tiny minority (and it is a TINY minority) let their disagreement with the splitting system influence their behaviour and will actually attempt to mislead you into buying something more expensive than you need. Thankfully, most of these I am aware of are now resolved / closed cases.

Amusingly, the routing guide can also save some cash. As it stands, Taunton - Bristol Parkway is valid via Westbury

This is priced at ^10.40 Off Peak Day Return

Taunton - Westbury "NOT BRISTOL"

This is priced at ^15.20 Off Peak Day Return

Sheer madness

Interestingly, the BBC also covered this subject of split tickets (suggesting ticket vending machines should offer them), over the weekend!


For full details, see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7861827.stm

Good to see an ATOC spokesman showing their usual flair for inept public relations.


The implication is that we should be very grateful that we are allowed to use split tickets at all. I would love to hear him explain how it is good value that you can occupy the same seat, on the same train, for the same journey and with a little ingenuity save 39% on the through fare!

Passenger Focus, as they often are, are spot on on this issue but from what I can tell they seem to be an entirely toothless organization with no actual clout to get the train operators to change anything.

I do sympathise with the ATOC view. The machines are designed to sell common tickets easily (hence their limitations) in order to reduce queues.

BUT:

Despite his claims, ticket machines ARE replacing booking offices at some stations.

And booking offices are closed sometimes. In these cases, the machines should be able to sell all tickets.

Giving people the option to buy a ticket for any journey in Great Britain from a machine is going to cost the TOC revenue as some people would take advantage of this and buy combinations of tickets so I can't see any TOC agreeing to this.

You can already do this (in a way) if you book online and collect your tickets from a machine.

I've choose my tickets online and just hand the booking office staff a list so as to minimise delays.  The alternative of coures is to book online and collect tickets from the machine.  I try and avoid doing this though as I'd rather the booking staff were not replaced by machines although if I have enough time I book online and get the tickets posted to me which I suppose makes me inconsistant

Exactly - but I think it isn't really A-B-C combinations in particular they are worried about, I suspect they'll never allow it because it aids buying A-B-big gap-C-D tickets. A fraud known colloquially as dumbbelling.

E.g. if you went to a ticket office and asked for Southampton-St Denys and Vauxhall - Waterloo for example, I think they'd have a right to be a bit suspicious.  The commercial rules always have to consider the worst case fraudsters unfortunately...
Paul

But you could buy your tickets online and still "dumbbell"