Great Western Coffee Shop

Is it a bit soon to get nostalgic about the pre-upgrade HST engines?
In no particular order, experiences it is no longer possible to experience:

• Being slightly awestruck by an everyday machine.
• Trying to make a mobile call at Reading station and giving up as each departing train obliterates anything else that dares to call itself sound.
• The eruption of impenetrable black smoke produced as one coughed into life, almost as if some enormous squid has filled the station with airborne ink.
• The distant whine of the 0730 to Paddington reminding me that I really should have gotten out of bed some time ago.

Might I suggest a trip to Sunderland on Grand Central who still use the noisy powercars with the collosal turbo.

I thought everyone preferred the deafening screams of Paxman Valentas at full chat to these new-fangled MTU things.

There are some good clips on YouTube to help you feel nostalgic including a few full-chat through Didcot jobs.

The MTUs don't produce the same amount of clag either but I suppose we are not allowed to complain about that on environmental grounds.

Something like this...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ICcOu0NkM&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=AEE85EAB076A34B2&playnext=1&index=44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1ICcOu0NkM&playnext_from=PL&feature=PlayList&p=AEE85EAB076A34B2&playnext=1&index=44)

I used to work about a mile from St Erth, the HSTs used to sprint out Hayle and notch down opposite me - the diesel noise faded out leaving you with the gradual wind down of the turbo scream - marvellous.


 

I'm in my thirties and I've got this strange feeling that HSTs will be the first train that I feel nostalgic about.  I hope we get some painted back to the yellow and blue livery before they are withdrawn

And back to the original seating configuration! That would really show up the Pendelinos  Vomiters et al!

I don't hold hold out much hope for the IEP either.

Perhaps we should have a vote, HST the finiest train BR ever built? Although I liked the post war loco hauled Pullmans used on the West and East Coast in the late 60s.

Of course even the HST pales compared with a DB ICE2. 

What I think is amazing about the HST is that it has 2 Power Cars that are over 70 Tonnes. It then has 8 Carriages, Passengers, Luggage etc. The HST is capable of 125MPH. For a design in the 70's to achieve that speed with the shear weight of all the power cars and carriages, I think, is Pretty Impressive ;D

On Topic, Yes I missed the noise of a good old Paxman Valenta. Although it's bad for the enviornment, I think the thick black smoke really showed just how hard these magnificant trains work ;D

They were in essance a 1960's design the prototype being run in the early 1970's.

The Valenta engine was not designed for a traction loading hence many of its problems in the early days.  The traction power system was a break from previous diesel electrics using an alternator and not a DC generator although the traction motors are still a DC series wound motor they do not use field diverts and the power control is electronic

Agreed 70 tonnes seems heavy for a power car but it's less than a 20 ton axle load.

Remember their contempories like the 40 and 45 weighed in at well over 100 tonnes but the 40s were about the same horsepower and the 45 around 500 hp more and both classes had to be carried on 4 axle bogies and were pushed to get to 90.

Off topic but, if you like thick black smoke and noise - something foreign......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEETEOcQW90

Watch it loud, and watch all 2min 35sec of it.

It's not the same!

Thats rather impressive ;D

Still prefer a Class 37, 47 and HST though ;)

I see a 67 at Taunton Station most mornings, Just watching ticking over is rather awe inspiring ;D

Have you ever stood next to a deltic (class 55)? They make the ground shake when they're idling, and enough noise to wake the dead at full chat - now that's impressive!

Thinking about it though I don't suppose many platform staff miss the old Valentas...can't have done much for your hearing having those Napiers whistling past you umpteen times every shift. I was chatting to a bus driver who used to work for Thames Trains at Slough station before the FGW HSTs were re-engined and he was telling me what a fright he got on his first day when an HST close to 125 went zinging past a few feet away!

I think the poor people who worked on platform 4 at reading must have had it the worst! As another thread pointed out it is very busy handling every single westbound train on the main lines.  Also, there's nowhere to hide!

IIRC they are capable of 140+ and still the holder of the world speed record for diesel powered passenger train.

does anyone think that these will ever get another referb or is that it for the hst's

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/3338883689_ebea40a876.jpg?v=0)

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/relex109/3338883689/)

I think that this will be the last refurb the HSTs will see relex109. They have however been done to a very high standard whether you like the seating or not as each carriage and power car was stripped to it's shell and virtually rebuilt so they will last until IEP is fully launched and beyond. I believe its safety legislation that will stop them being used after IEP is introduced. Can someone explain further on this one?

My advice is enjoy the HSTs over the next 6-7 years and hope Hitachi deliver something that is near to the quality of the HST.

British Rail achieved the current official world speed record for diesel traction of 148 mph using a 2+5 Valenta-engined HST set, although Spain and Russia have claimed unofficial speed records much higher, with 168 mph in the latter case. I think I'm correct in saying that given the opportunity HSTs would quite happily rattle along regularly at 140 mph, given enough time and distance to accelerate.

As far as I know no-one's had a punt at the speed record using an MTU-engined HST set. A possible PR opportunity there methinks, if anyone from FGW Towers is listening... I don't doubt for one moment that the HSTs still have it in them!

The MTU engines are downrated (by as much as 20% I think) on their design power output so that they pretty much match the old Valenta engines in performance, but save fuel, engine wear and noise. If they were allowed to run at full spec then that record would be under serious threat - the H&S red-tape that has to be cut through for any such record attempt is rather amazing though!

Interesting thoughts, I would think the H&S boys would cause a world shortage of red tape if anyone said we want to see if a MTU HST could do 150+.

It's very interesting to contrast the French attitude to rail speed records ever since WW2, of course they use specially prepared locos and TGV sets and with less traffic and bettter track they can go for it as per the recent record on the new LGV Est. They celebrate it as a national engineering triumph.

The story of 4468's world steam speed record (126 mph) on the LNER in 1938 is pretty hair-raising. It doesn't sound like the operating department wanted the civil engineers to find out what was afoot: right up until the day the operation was dressed up as brake trials, and after Mallard had thundered down Stoke Bank at 126 it turned out that much of the track she had run over at that speed consisted of thirty-foot jointed rail, laid almmost 30 years previously  :o

I don't think Sir Nigel Gresley wanted his directors to know what he was planning either Mallard cost ^8,500 to build a substantial amount of money in 1938.  Gresley was quite particular picking Mallard for the run she had done a number of miles so was worn in but not overly worn; I had heard that Mallard had to be effectively rebuilt after the record run because of the mount of damage done to bearings etc.

I am sure the re-engined class 43 with a short rake of coaches could turn 150 MPH but what would it prove

The Wessex Electrics hold the third rail record. Has that been "unofficially" beaten?

Why did SWT get rid of them? They're better than the unreliable Junipers, and would be nice for Portsmouth commuters.

At least Southern have got some running again...

They were too expensive to lease.

This was a very unpopular move with passengers on the Portsmouth-London line as SWT removed a number of their 'Intercity' style class 444s off this route to cover the 442s coming off lease between London-Bournemouth-Weymouth line replacing them with suburban 450s on the Portsmouth line which are not suited to long distance travel, bit like Voyagers when you think about it!

I like 444s but they aren't as good as the 442s as they were Intercity standard because they were based on Mk3 coaching stock.

::)

Took a trip on NXEA the other week - HSTs with the original seat arrangement and carriage furnishings!  Fantastic. 
Didn't get to see what the engine was as the service was disrupted and the trains were running haphazardly with no CIS information was available so I was wandering in a daze around Liverpool Street and ended up on a random train.

You must have been in quite a daze as NXEA dont have HSTs !!

NXEA do have Mk 3s although  I am surprised that plymouthian didn't find his 'HST' a little quiet. ;)


Just to muddy the water, I believe that as far back as 1931, a German, Zepplin built railcar with a petrol engine achieved 142 mph.  This speed was surpassed by a (pre-production?) HST which clocked 143 mph in June 1973, still a world record.

A triumph for British/German  engineering and one up on the French. But then again   I don't think they'd want a diesel record, they are very happy with all their electric records.

Anyone know the timings of the Cross Country 125 sets that venture into the West Country? I assume they are Newcastle/Plymouth trains.

They are from everywhere except Newcastle in fact!

Southbound
0600 Leeds - 0812 New St - 1156 Plymouth
0632 York -0912 New St - 1256 Plymouth
0608 Edin - 1112 New St - 1456 Plymouth
0632 Dundee - 1312 New St - 1653 Plymouth

Northbound
1221 Plymouth - 1603 New St - 2235 Glasgow
1321 Plymouth - 1703 New St - 2222 Edinburgh
1521 Plymouth - 1903 New St - 2149 York
1721 Plymouth - 2103 New St - 2331 Leeds

IIRC I originally worked out the above info by comparison of the XC and FGW timetables, the latter shows the traction type! Weekends are somewhat different, but variable at the moment due to engineering works.

Paul

That's excellent...many many thanks. I live in York, son lives in Falmouth and whilst I enjoy the Yk-Kx-Padd-Truro run on 125s...thought I'd like to try CC...will report back, cheers. Jim

1521 only goes to Leeds

That's interesting...current CC pamphlet picked up today from York indicates york arrival as 2139...stop. If it does then I assume it goes back to Leeds empty stock!
Will let you know ;)

My hard copy 'orange' and 'green' timetables both show York, but the online version of 'orange' shows it terminating at Leeds, 'green' at York. 

Must have been a change after going to print...

Paul

Can only report today's journeys...York-Birmingham and return...both 125 sets. Excellent, comfortable runs...no buffet mind, but trolleys.
Amazingly the return North (16.03 B New St) runs to Glasgow central. ???

BTW, they weren't noisy but pretty rock and rolly! ;D

perhaps a table seat?

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/relex109/3372620031/)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3372620031_d0070dba56.jpg?v=0)

I think your cheating again Relex ...!

That looks suspiciously like a MKII design... ;) :D :P

Remember their contempories like the 40 and 45 weighed in at well over 100 tonnes but the 40s were about the same horsepower and the 45 around 500 hp more and both classes had to be carried on 4 axle bogies and were pushed to get to 90.

Ah, but the acceleration of the Peaks from low speeds............. I remember a Class 45 working a Bank Holiday relief (remember them?) from Kidderminster/Worcs/Oxford off the Didcot east curve easing past an HST accelerating out of Didcot back in the late 70s (the 45 had been slowed by the signals). Took the HST a while to catch up.

Well it's fgw :-)

Is that perhaps a Buffet Car then...? Or a BSO

its not a buffet they were generally incorperated into the first class coaches but it is the guards van more pictures on my flikr account

Please don't post pictures like this. The sight of all those lovely comfy seats and the tables, oh the tables.......

Yes please don't post any more of these, they remind me of hellish loco-hauled "intercity" cross country trips.

You obviously don't travel on the current cross country "voyager" offerings. 

Oh, how I wish for the old loco-hauled days.... space to sit down; tables; no engine vibration; no smell of toilets; and cross-country trains that stop at Worcester and Gloucester.

I will second that any day ;D

Loco Hauled stock/HST is the way forward IMO.

Oh the delights of not having to look like a pillock standing in "the rubber bit" on a voyager to make a phone call... ::)

I think Not From Brighton is actually quite a fan of such trains. But irony sometimes doesn't come out well in print....

 :-[
I_B remembers with utter shame the time circa 2001 when he was pleased to see 1V59 OXF - PAD (a Vermin XC service in those days, think it started in MAN) was a Voyager and not one of those lovely class 47s.

I got better though. Somewhere around the avoiding line at Didcot the novelty wore off, deep vein thrombosis set in and I started thinking that a bit of 47 thrash and a threadbare mk 2 (because let's face it, they were looking a bit rat-infested towards the end) would be muchly appreciated. Especially as the Voyager sounded like it was trying to shake itself to bits every time a power notch was selected.

The Class 47s always seemed like proper, dignified, heavy duty trains and were a welcome relief from the non-stop stream of plastic (i.e. Turbos) we had serving Oxford around then. They made the ground shake as they rolled in and made a superb noise as they pulled out. Still, at least now we have lots of nice HSTs which not so long ago were rare beasts indeed.

I'm afriad you have just plumetted down in my demeanor I_B ;) :P ::)

Ok, just to clarify, I prefered the space available in the Mk2s with lots of tables, but I was never a fan of the speed they seemed to travel at.  The voyagers are a lot faster, especially at accellerating, which is important because they've always got time to make up.  I also recall having to travel in the guard's van on a number of occasions as there weren't any seats.  Whilst the voyagers may not have been an improvement on the HSTs they replaced, they were deffinately better than the 47 + 4Mk2s + van formation.
They turn around at Reading a lot faster too.

Oh yes, yes, yes........

Some more Mark 2 fans - thank you for declaring yourselves. Decent carriages with tables and a class 47 or 57 would be fine

The fgw loco hauled set has a table at every seat!

Yes but, sadly, it doesn't do Hereford or Cheltenham to Paddington, so it's back to airline seats with rows of pink Mickey Mouse ears

I'm not sure I completely subscribe to the "table good, airline bad" theory. Certainly if I'm travelling with a group of friends it's nice to be able to sit round a table, although that often wasn't possible even in the "old days" when HSTs had more tables per carriage because they tended to get taken up by people travelling individually.

However, if I'm travelling by myself then give me an airline seat any day. No jostling for leg/foot room with the person sitting opposite, and equally you don't have to stare at their ugly face/watch them picking their nose/put up with them dumping their laptop on the table, taking up all the space and shoving it under your chin (all of which have happened to me in the past  ;))

That's why, slightly controversially, I'm a fan of the refurbed HSTs: lots more legroom on the airline seating  than there used to be, and I also find the seats more comfortable.

Suppose I'd better take cover now and await the barrage of abuse!

"When first introduced test runs where made which set a world record for a diesel train, 143 mph (230 km/h) and this record was broken in 1987 when the train set a record of 148 mph, which makes this the fastest diesel train in the world."

At one time it also held the world record for a scheduled point-to-point run. This was from Paddington to Chippenham at 116mph (IIRC !), the only "special" preparations for this run was to put inspectors in the cabs of preceding trains to ensure that the track was clear as far ahead as possible.  It was reported that many passengers complained when the train sat at Chippenham for nearly 20 minutes to get back to the timetable !

Well, it may be a minority view, inspector_blakey, but I have expressed a similar opinion here, nearly a year ago!  See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=2621.msg19798#msg19798  ;) :D ;D

Someone else will confirm the details but there was a period when two 125s started from York (one from the Hull bay and one from the "slow to Leeds" bay, timed to leave 4 minutes apart. But because the "slow to Leeds" train went down the old line, and the other set off down the ECML, they sometimes spectacularly set off together...screaming down to Colton Junction, both at line speed. Even standing at the end of platform 3 it brought a tear to the eye, and that at 07.40...I'd be waiting for the 08.00 non-stop (sadly) 225 to the Cross.
Sorry, not South West material but screamers non the less... :'(