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Journey by Journey => London to Reading => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on March 19, 2009, 22:39:54



Title: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 19, 2009, 22:39:54
Quote
A train company has defended its decision not to impose a penalty fare on former London Mayor Ken Livingstone after he travelled without a ticket. Mr Livingstone could have faced a ^20 fine for not buying a ticket for his journey from London's Paddington station to Slough in Berkshire. But the First Great Western (FGW) train company said it has accepted Mr Livingstone's apology and they were happy for him to pay the fare when he got to Slough.

An FGW spokeswoman added: "Mr Livingstone, like any other passengers, was given the opportunity to pay at the end of his journey - in this case, at Slough. When he got to Slough, Mr Livingstone approached a member of our staff, apologised and offered to pay before being asked. Our approach is to give passengers the benefit of the doubt before issuing a penalty fare. He said he was in a massive hurry and not obtained a ticket. We took the same approach with 10 other passengers who were on this train. There was no question of Mr Livingstone being given preferential treatment."

Mark Wallace, of the Taxpayers' Alliance, told the Daily Mail: "It is utter hypocrisy. He has been let off just because he is famous. Other people using the same excuse have been prosecuted."

Liberal Democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker MP told the Mail: "This sends out the wrong message. It's a poor example to set."

See http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx?cp-documentid=15185276


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: willc on March 19, 2009, 23:56:09
Good job for Ken he wasn't on the Cotswold Line this morning - the RPIs were out mob-handed at Moreton-in-Marsh. Three on the southbound platform checking everyone turning up for the 9.50 to London and then another one riding on the train itself, working with the guard, though we don't have penalty fares out here.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Ollie on March 20, 2009, 10:57:08
It's a shame they fail to mention how the other 10 or so people who got off the train without a ticket weren't penalty fared either.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 20, 2009, 14:45:03
We took the same approach with 10 other passengers who were on this train. There was no question of Mr Livingstone being given preferential treatment."

?

They do mention that...

On a tenuously related topic, the Taxpayers' Alliance wind me up. I'm not quite sure why the apparently self-appointed Mark Wallace thinks he has the mandate to sound off on behalf of everyone paying taxes in the UK. Every single statement I have ever heard them make follows the tedious right-wing Daily Mail/Middle England/Richard Littlejohn to-hell-in-a-handcart bluster. Presumably he was speaking to the Daily Mail because they're the only paper prepared to print this sort of garbage. The frightening thing (as I think G.Uard has alluded to elsewhere) is that so many millions of people in Middle England read this tripe and take it as the gospel truth!


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Ollie on March 20, 2009, 20:40:14
We took the same approach with 10 other passengers who were on this train. There was no question of Mr Livingstone being given preferential treatment."

?

They do mention that...
I didn't read the link that Chris provided, made the assumption it would be the same as others I had seen. That's what I get for assuming..


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Zoe on March 20, 2009, 21:17:35
How did he get through the barriers at Paddington without a ticket?


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Ollie on March 20, 2009, 21:30:59
Not all platforms at Paddington have barriers.

Platform 1, 6, 7, 8 and 9 have no barrier, plus sometimes the overbridge is not staffed so possible to access 2,3, 4 and 5 also


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: paul7575 on March 21, 2009, 13:31:38
How did he get through the barriers at Paddington without a ticket?

With his all zones Oyster travelcard apparently, IIRC from posts elsewhere... So he needed a BZ6- Slough extension, that he wouldn't have been able to get from a TVM anyway, but definitley should have organised before he travelled.

Off the main point I know, but I believe the 'big issue' for mainline TOCs regarding Oyster & PAYG is the temptation to 'overtravel', as it is so easy to do. Pax with a zonal travelcard on Oyster will easily be able to travel beyond its validity to an ungated station (as they can now).  But with PAYG pax will also get a bargain fare if they enter a mainline terminus with a PAYG card (incurring the max fare deduction - ^5 for National Rail routes) then travel further than a ^5 single would take them, to an unbarriered station. Only an on train check outside zone 6 would prevent this, a grip in the zones wouldn't count.

Paul


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Btline on March 21, 2009, 18:06:43
Are they able to barrier stations like Paddington so that trains travelling first stop Slough or Reading depart from platforms whose barriers don't have active Oyster Readers?

i.e. Have half the platforms with inactive oyster readers and half with active. (obviously, staff would have to be able to "activate" the unactive readers in case of a platform alteration)

This would act as a deterrent to people coming towards London, and would prevent those travelling away.

PS: Surely after Crossrail, all trains from the main platforms will be for destinations outside Zone 6, so the readers can be removed?


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Ollie on March 21, 2009, 18:10:59
Are they able to barrier stations like Paddington so that trains travelling first stop Slough or Reading depart from platforms whose barriers don't have active Oyster Readers?

i.e. Have half the platforms with inactive oyster readers and half with active. (obviously, staff would have to be able to "activate" the unactive readers in case of a platform alteration)

This would act as a deterrent to people coming towards London, and would prevent those travelling away.

PS: Surely after Crossrail, all trains from the main platforms will be for destinations outside Zone 6, so the readers can be removed?
If a train left from Platform 2-5 then it would be okay, as the barriers on concourse there do not have readers.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 22, 2009, 14:56:29
As a slight aside I don't think you'll ever see barriers on Platforms 1 or 8 as they are public rights of way. Can anyone who works there confirm?


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: plymothian on March 22, 2009, 17:31:31
As a slight aside I don't think you'll ever see barriers on Platforms 1 or 8 as they are public rights of way. Can anyone who works there confirm?

If you look at the station layout, all the facilities are located on Plat 1 plus a way out. Though it may be possible to put a glass wall barrier down half the platform.  Mind you it hasn't stopped NXEA barriering off the toilets at Norwich.  Likewise Plat 8/9 used to be the taxi ramp, and is now the interchange route between H&C, C,D&B Underground stations, but again it is wide enough for a wall to be built.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 23, 2009, 20:23:29
Quote
Don't pay your rail fare fines, says Ken Livingstone (who once led a crusade against the ticketless traveller)

Ken Livingstone is now urging train passengers not to pay 'rip-off' fines after himself being let off a ^20 penalty for travelling without a valid ticket.

He says passengers are being unfairly victimised to boost train firm coffers and has even offered his services to work with lawyers to help 'to defend any other innocent traveller who is a victim of these rapacious rail companies'.

The left-winger, who as Mayor of London vigorously targeted ticket cheats, was spared his own 'zero tolerance' approach by First Great Western staff. But instead of being grateful, Mr Livingstone has instead attacked the fining policies of First Great Western.

In a letter to the Daily Mail he denied trying to dodge paying his fare and insisted he was the victim of the train company's 'disgraceful record' of making its ticketing system deliberately difficult for passengers to use, simply to earn more income from its ^20 penalty fines.

See http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1164052/Dont-pay-rail-fare-fines-says-Ken-Livingstone-led-crusade-ticketless-traveller.html


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Super Guard on March 23, 2009, 20:52:17
Anyone now wish he'd been fined?  ::)


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Btline on March 23, 2009, 21:04:15
My opinion of Ken (which was until a minute ago - high) has plummeted. >:(

How on earth can he claim that it was "too complicated" to buy a fare?

Ken - here's how to do it: (1) Go up to the ticket office. (2) Ask for a single to Slough (3) Bob's your uncle.

he should be ashamed of himself, and should be prosecuted.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: super tm on March 23, 2009, 21:23:43

Quote
'Five years ago I offered the company enough money to install new ticket barriers that would allow their system to be compatible with London's Oyster card system. First Great Western refused to do this because it would dramatically reduce income from their ^20 penalty charge regime.'

A spokesman for First Great Western said: 'We don't know where Mr Livingstone is coming from as First Great Western didn't issue him with a penalty fare. Our approach in such cases is to give our customers the benefit of the doubt and our staff were happy to accept that Mr Livingstone's mistake was genuine

The above is taken from the Mail on Sunday article.  Basically it is a load of rubbish and bordering on a untruth.  He did not offer FGW enough money to install new ticket barriers so the oyster card system would be compatible with FGW.  To have done so would mean oyster readers from Paddington to Penzance.

What he did offer was money to make the system compatible in London.  As Slough is outside London it never would have worked at Slough even if they had taken the money. Oyster is a London system and does not work outside !!!!

I can see why the FGW spokesperson does not see where he is coming from.

Also do we really believe the statement that they did not accept the money as they would lose too many penalty fares.  If it is true then it must be written down somewhere so lets have the letter published. 

By the way the FGW system in London has been compatible with oyster for about 12 months now.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: devon_metro on March 23, 2009, 21:30:24
If I didn't buy car tax, i'd get fined.

Same principle  ???

I'm sure Ken could cough up ^20 whatever happens.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: inspector_blakey on March 23, 2009, 23:12:31
The enigmatic Mr Livingstone strike again. Perhaps someone ought to remind him that under BR you still had to pitch up and buy a ticket (and indeed they started introducing penalty fares to certain areas in the very early 1990s).

I'm a bit puzzled by the FGW line on this issue though: the press office says "we give customers the benefit of the doubt" and yet stations are plastered with posters threatening penalty fares or prosecution for travelling without a ticket.

I have never been charged a penalty fare (they're easy to avoid, I find, by buying a ticket) and on the one occasion when I was charged a standard open fare on board successfully challenged it and was subsequently refunded (suffice it to say that I had started my journey horribly early in the morning from Oxford in the days before the S&B ticket machines when the ticket office was closed and the old Quickfare machines did not sell appropriate tickets. I had purchased a permit to travel, but the offending train manager did not seem to have heard of the NRCoC). However on my regular travels in and around the Thames Valley I have not noticed many RPIs giving passengers the benefit of the doubt, and as I have posted elsewhere consider some of the examples of revenue protection I have witnessed to be very close to threatening behaviour or intimidation. FGW does itself no favours by sending out inconsistent messages in this regard.


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Btline on March 23, 2009, 23:21:09
Quote
...they're easy to avoid, I find, by buying a ticket...
:P


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: paul7575 on March 24, 2009, 13:35:29

What he did offer was money to make the system compatible in London.  As Slough is outside London it never would have worked at Slough even if they had taken the money. Oyster is a London system and does not work outside !!!!


Call me a cynic, but I think this is an intentional stunt on Livingstones behalf. What he is trying to do is keep positioning himself as public transport's only possible saviour, but mainly to keep one major issue bubbling away, which is this...

Whenever Oyster PAYG is finally rolled out with all the London TOCs, there will still be all these 'edge cases' where it can't be used, that are the homes of millions of London commuters.  Think of Gerrards Cross, High Wycombe, Slough, Windsor, Weybridge, Epsom etc, and that is just to the west...

But you can't just keep expanding the zonal area across the country concentric to London, at some stage there has to be a stop, and then an interface with other zonal fare systems.  The big political question is where do those natural boundaries lie.  In any case 'orbital zones' aren't necessarily correct for everywhere else, but work for London because they've realised the vast majority of tube journeys are radial. Buses are different with TfL, you pay per journey.

Of course if places such as Slough could be sucked into Greater London, just to make fare simplification possible, they'd bring all the relevant local authority's income into the GLA's accounts, where it could be spent in Ken's heartland...

Paul


Title: Re: 'No ticket' Ken escapes train fine
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 25, 2009, 00:44:47
From the Press Gazette (http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&storycode=44011&c=1):

Quote
PCC rejects Livingstone complaint over rail fare 'dodge'

The Press Complaints Commission has rejected a complaint by former London mayor Ken Livingstone made over a series of Daily Mail articles claiming he had "dodged" a rail fare.

Livingstone lodged his complaint over articles published in March which suggested despite his not purchasing a ticket for a train journey from Paddington to Slough, he was not forced to pay a penalty fare.

The Mail said the incident contrasted with his "zero tolerance" policy on fare dodging when he was Mayor of London.

In the complaint Livingstone said he had been unable to buy a ticket as a tube delay meant he arrived at the station just minutes before his train departed and like many other passengers he approached station staff at his destination where no-one received a fine.

Making its ruling the PCC said that while the account bore the interpretation of the freelance reporter who had witnessed the event, there appeared to be nothing inaccurate about it and therefore the paper was under no obligation to obtain Livingstone's version of events.

The PCC stated: "The freelance reporter was an eyewitness to the fact that the complainant [Livingstone] did not have a ticket, which was the substance of the story, so there was no need to contact the complainant to find out whether it was true. The statements regarding the complainant being warned were attributed to a spokesman for First Great Western, and the suggestion that the complainant had looked embarrassed was attributed to a witness. Whether or not it was technically correct that the complainant had ^admitted his error^ was not significant given that he had accepted that he had approached station staff to tell them that he did not have a ticket."

The PCC failed to uphold the complaint as it said it did not consider the coverage misleading.



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