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Journey by Journey => Chiltern Railways services => Topic started by: Btline on April 10, 2009, 18:24:11



Title: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Btline on April 10, 2009, 18:24:11
Quote
'Aggressive Virgin advertisements target ^Chiltern Snailways^ over journey times.

Virgin^s advertising campaign is regarded as one of the most aggressive ever mounted against a fellow TOC.

Virgin Trains has placed a series of large posters denigrating Chiltern Railways^s service right outside a number of its key stations including Moor Street in Birmingham and Leamington Spa.

The posters include one headlined Chiltern Snailways in reference to the company^s London-Birmingham journey time. Chiltern^s quickest journey on the route is 2hrs 10mins which is 50 minutes slower than Virgin^s 1hr 20mins.

Another poster includes the statement ^Time is money, Chiltern Railways haven^t quite grasped this^.

Chiltern said it had interpreted the advertising as a sign that Virgin is concerned by the competition it provides on the London-Birmingham route. Cheaper fares, considerably better punctuality than Virgin and consistent marketing have enabled Chiltern to build up a 30% market share of the London-Birmingham rail market from a very low base.

Virgin^s tactics are regarded in the industry as one of the most aggressive campaigns ever mounted against a fellow TOC. They follow advertising from Chiltern pointing out the price difference between the two companies^ fares and come at a time when the difference between their punctuality is at record levels.

^We have been advertising that we are ^50 cheaper than them in the peak and this is their response,^ Kirsteen Robertson, Chiltern^s head of marketing, told Transit. ^We haven^t complained though. There is a recession on and we are all after passengers. When I have seen Virgin at ATOC meetings it has all been very good humoured.^

She added that Chiltern^s success in building market share had been down to its superior punctuality as well as price. In March, the company achieved the record performance by any train operator in a four week period.

^We have just achieved 97.51% in period 13 and we think they are on course for 97%,^ Robertson said. ^We don^t have their linespeed, but we do get people there when we say we will.^

The previous record for punctuality in a four-week period was 97.3% achieved by c2c two years ago.'

I expect this is due to the VHF timetable, and VT having empty Off-Peak trains!

VT will be worried, as Chiltern now have built a 30% market share from nothing. (set to increase from 2011 with 1 hour 40 minutes timings!)

Well, in a recession - instead of putting up nasty posters, why not lower your WALKUP fares?

My estimations of VT have gone down - with the W&S debacle, and now this.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: devon_metro on April 10, 2009, 18:26:57
Made me laugh when I read it the other day...!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 10, 2009, 18:28:03
Made me laugh when I read it the other day...!

It is quite amusing! But I expect the ASA will ban it - it is out of order.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Timmer on April 10, 2009, 18:49:49
Well, in a recession - instead of putting up nasty posters, why not lower your WALKUP fares?
Exactly. Chiltern have obviously proved that people want flexability and good value walk up fares and this is despite the journey taking longer. Advance fares are great value but very inflexible.

Quote
My estimations of VT have gone down - with the W&S debacle, and now this.
It hasn't shown Virgin in a good light sadly. They should know better following them being bullyed by BA over transatlantic routes in the nineties. The funny thing about all this is whenever the WCML goes down, the first thing Virgin do is tell passengers travelling London-Birmingham to travel on Chiltern's services!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: inspector_blakey on April 10, 2009, 20:13:58
I don't think the ASA can intervene as from what you have posted it doesn't seem like Virgin have said anything factually inaccurate in their advert.

For what it's worth this strikes me as a bit of sparky Virgin PR (which they are, after all, renowned for) which they're entirely within their rights to try. Did Chiltern not wave the red rag at the bull a few weeks back after Virgin's infamous "no kissing" notice at Warrington BQ...? Six of one, half a dozen of the other perhaps!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 10, 2009, 21:58:16
No - everything might be true, but the ASA might still pull it.

They pulled the Mac vs. PC ads. Everything in them was correct, but it was shown to be too aggressive.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: stebbo on April 10, 2009, 22:58:09
Simple answer, as one who has used Virgin and Chiltern to London in years gone by - Chiltern are much cheaper and far more reliable. Game over - Chiltern every time. They know how to run a railway. Any chance they could take over FGW....?


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Electric train on April 11, 2009, 08:33:09
Now with EPS (Enhanced Permissible Speed) on the WCML and the engineering restrictions gone (or almost) NR's track access charges have been raised mix that with the lower numbers of business travelers and commuters due to the recession I suspect Virgins margins are being squeezed.  I'm not sure when the Virgin franchise runs out but it would be interesting to see if DB (who are now a National operator with their ownership of EWS) would bid for it and with DB's ownership of EWS they now really do have the capability of running engine and coaches services


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: smithy on April 11, 2009, 20:08:21
typical vigin advertising just google virgin atlantic and look at the wiki site to see some of the slogans they have used over the years.

for me i would use chiltern over vt every time even though 50 mins longer,i have always found them to be more punctual,trains are cleaner,trains are far more reliable,the staff are more friendly and finally the pocket does not get such a bashing.

vt should look at offering more competative priced tickets maybe in times of recession that would encourage some passengers to return?


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: willc on April 12, 2009, 12:43:07
They already have done.

http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1209 (http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1209)

http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1207 (http://www.virgintrainsmediaroom.com/index.cfm?articleid=1207)

Small steps maybe but a sign they are looking long and hard at loadings, so if Chiltern really are hurting them, then expect to see this extended to London fares too at some point.

Plus between Manchester and London you can book an advance ticket to be sent to your mobile phone up until 23.59 the night before travel, which allows a pretty spur of the moment decision. Unless you are the sort to get up in the morning and say 'I'm off to London now'.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: stebbo on April 14, 2009, 21:29:45
Chiltern introduced the paperless ticket using mobiles a few years ago.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: willc on April 15, 2009, 23:17:04
Chiltern introduced the paperless ticket using mobiles a few years ago.

My point wasn't about the mobile ticketing per se, it was that the system Virgin are trying out for Manchester-London allows a pretty spur-of-the-moment decision to travel, even for an advance fare.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: vacman on April 17, 2009, 22:54:18
Well I say leave em to it! the more aggressive the advertising gets then the better deal the customer will get in retaliation! if I were doing Birmingham to London I would go on London Midland, I was well impressed with their Desiro's and they have some pretty cheap fares which are route "London Midland only", was lookin em up in the avantix the other day, I think actually that the LM "Anytime" fare was cheaper than Chilterns but may be my memory playing tricks.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 17, 2009, 23:02:38
Chiltern are quicker than LM (less stops!), and you have 2+2 seating in Clubmans, not 2+3 seating in Desiros.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: vacman on April 17, 2009, 23:03:05
I was right, cheapest peak walkup fare from Brum to London is on London Midland.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: vacman on April 17, 2009, 23:05:45
Chiltern are quicker than LM (less stops!), and you have 2+2 seating in Clubmans, not 2+3 seating in Desiros.
Look on the journey planner and they're about the same, the last Desiro I went on had 2+2 seating? still, cheap and cheerful and no underfloor diesel engine noise!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 17, 2009, 23:24:40
I thought that LM WCML services were to be operated with the new 2+3 units, with the B'ham - Liverpool using the older 2+2 Desiros. I suspect it's a mix up though... Do they have the same facilities as the Clubmans? (sockets etc.)

Chiltern are about 25 mins faster than LM on average.

Their cheapest advance fare is the same as LM ^5. Ditto for their Super-Off-Peak fare at ^14.90.

However, Chiltern's Off-Peak single is four pounds cheaper than LM's (^31 and ^35). This is excellent value on Chiltern's part considering that the LM service take forever! (probably quicker to drive!) A lesser company would charge for the speed.

And at least you're not stopping and starting all the time with Chiltern! You can maintain some speed. (some LMs stop twice as much as Chiltern!)

So I would rather travel with Chiltern. ;) Obviously if you want speed - use Virgin and pay.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: devon_metro on April 17, 2009, 23:46:55
Personally, i'd be travelling Virgin at the moment. 90+DVT set replacing a pendolino. Luxury!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: vacman on April 18, 2009, 19:24:51
I thought that LM WCML services were to be operated with the new 2+3 units, with the B'ham - Liverpool using the older 2+2 Desiros. I suspect it's a mix up though... Do they have the same facilities as the Clubmans? (sockets etc.)

Chiltern are about 25 mins faster than LM on average.

Their cheapest advance fare is the same as LM ^5. Ditto for their Super-Off-Peak fare at ^14.90.

However, Chiltern's Off-Peak single is four pounds cheaper than LM's (^31 and ^35). This is excellent value on Chiltern's part considering that the LM service take forever! (probably quicker to drive!) A lesser company would charge for the speed.

And at least you're not stopping and starting all the time with Chiltern! You can maintain some speed. (some LMs stop twice as much as Chiltern!)

So I would rather travel with Chiltern. ;) Obviously if you want speed - use Virgin and pay.

it may well be quicker to drive but is certainly easier to catch the train, bham to london is a prime example though of where competition is benefiting the customer!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 18, 2009, 19:39:10
Agree. The competition is good - however, I think Chiltern vs. VT is greater than CH vs. LM.

What privatisation is all about!


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: vacman on April 18, 2009, 23:17:40
Agree. The competition is good - however, I think Chiltern vs. VT is greater than CH vs. LM.

What privatisation is all about!
I don't doubt that but if you know the night before that you need to go from Brum to London at peak time then you have the cheap LM option, must say I was in the midlands a few weeks ago and travelled around quite a bit on LM and was quite impressed, was I just lucky?


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on April 18, 2009, 23:57:22
They're a big improvement on Central Trains! (run by NX)


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Tim on May 28, 2009, 13:52:48
leave them to it.  All's fair in love, war or business. 

I don't think being "agressive" makes an advert illegal although I do wonder if Virgin are sailing close to the wind in using Chilterns trademark "Chiltern Railways" in an abusive way by refering to it as "Chiltern Snailways".

The Comparitive Advertising Directive permits the use of a competitor's Trademark without permission in order to identify their product, but you might argue that "Chiltern Snailways" is causing illegal damage to the brand.  Will the public be refering to the TOC by this disparaging name (thereby causing damage) long after the advertising campaign is forgotten?

I wonder how Chiltern will respond


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Tim on May 28, 2009, 15:00:39
More dull info from me :-)

 Article 3 of teh Comparitive Advertising Directive provides a list of criteria where comparative advertising will be allowed:

^

(1) it is not misleading ^ ;

(2) it compares goods or services meeting the same needs or intended for the same purpose;

(3) it objectively compares one or more material, relevant, verifiable and representative features of those goods and services, which may include price;

(4) it does not create confusion in the market place between the advertiser^s trade marks, trade names, other distinguishing marks, goods or services and those of a competitor;

(5) it does not discredit or denigrate the trade marks, trade names, other distinguishing marks, goods, services activities or circumstances of a competitor;


The Trade Marks Act 1994

Section 10(6) states:

^Nothing in the preceding provisions of this section shall be construed as preventing the used of a registered trade mark by any person for the purpose of identifying goods or services as those of the proprietor or licensee.

But any such use otherwise than in accordance with honest practices in industrial or commercial matters shall be treated as infringing the registered trade mark if the use without due cause takes unfair advantage of, or is detrimental to, the distinctive character or repute of the trade mark.^

I would not be surprised if Chiltern speak to their lawyers about being called "Chiltern Snailways"


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 28, 2009, 18:33:10
Quote
I would not be surprised if Chiltern speak to their lawyers about being called "Chiltern Snailways"

I'd also venture to suggest that it's rather unwise for Virgin to choose to criticise Chiltern, bearing in mind the most recent performance figures.

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4737.0 -
Quote
Chiltern ... reached the 95% mark.
... while
Quote
Virgin's punctuality figure slipped from 86.2% in 2007/08 to 80.0% in 2008/09 ...

Hmm ...  ::)


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 29, 2009, 11:38:36
I'd also venture to suggest that it's rather unwise for Virgin to choose to criticise Chiltern, bearing in mind the most recent performance figures.

It's an indication of how much custom has been lost to Chiltern during the WCML upgrade. Virgin will now push their service frequency and speed, and conveniently forget to mention their higher fares and worse performance. The performance levels are now starting to creep up again from the very poor levels around the turn of the year - It will be interesting to see what percentage of passengers switch back to Virgin. Some, but by no means all, would be my guess.


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: Btline on May 29, 2009, 18:16:54
Chiltern won't be too worried. With Evergreen 3 on the way, they'll no longer be as much as a SNAILway.

With 100 minute timings and pick ups at places like Solihull, Dorridge, Warwick Parkway etc, Chiltern will be more convenient than VT for many.

With destinations like Bicester and High Wycombe, they'll attract more than just "InterCity" passengers.

Chiltern also stop at Wembley on match days, and have rolling stock where >95% of people have a view (compared to just 66% on Virgin).


Title: Re: Virgin attack Chiltern "SNAILways" with an "aggressive" campaign!
Post by: readytostart on June 05, 2009, 15:44:28

It hasn't shown Virgin in a good light sadly. They should know better following them being bullyed by BA over transatlantic routes in the nineties. The funny thing about all this is whenever the WCML goes down, the first thing Virgin do is tell passengers travelling London-Birmingham to travel on Chiltern's services!

VT seem to be suffering from short term memory loss, it was only around twelve months ago that they were hailed along with Chiltern and Network Rail for coming up with 'Blockade Buster' diverted WCML service via Leamington and High Wycombe to reduce the need for replacement bus services. VT drivers were even trained on the route using Chiltern's Bubble Car and drivers! They do seem to have it in for DB Schenker though, with the proposed and now shelved Shrewsbury service and introducing a morning service from Wrexham via Chester treading on WSMR's toes and now trying to muscle in on Chiltern!


Title: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: EBrown on November 17, 2012, 16:48:20
Removed.


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: Bristolboy on November 17, 2012, 20:49:32
I haven't got a photo but chiltern often seem to have massive advertising campaigns at euston. Not in the national rail station but on bus stops, billboards etc outside and also all over the London underground part of the station.  this includes advertising on underground ticket barriers, on the walls opposite platforms, in the underground walkways and most glaringly what I can only describe as a wrap covering all of the walls, floors and ceilings of the escalators from the national rail part of the station underground. Can't see a problem with it myself - it is increasing competition on this busy route and hopefully helping to reduce prices. 


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: Timmer on November 18, 2012, 07:07:28
Can't see a problem with it myself - it is increasing competition on this busy route and hopefully helping to reduce prices. 
Exactly what rail privatisation was meant to provide.


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on November 18, 2012, 13:32:54
..and what FGW could have done when the M4 J2 flyover was shut earlier this year, as we discussed under another topic.  Privatisation could and should force rail companies to succeed by becoming more efficient through competition, and give passengers better services and lower prices.  Well done Chiltern.


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: ChrisB on November 18, 2012, 15:31:51
As we discussed at the time, prohibitively expensive for them, and the disruption wasn't long enough to make a long-term difference


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: ellendune on November 18, 2012, 16:57:46
They could only do it if they had spare seats of course, which some travellers from Maidenhead and places east might no think exist - at least in the peaks. 

Chiltern have extra seats to sell.


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: ChrisB on November 18, 2012, 17:47:38
Of course...x2!


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: swrural on February 09, 2013, 14:24:22
I got this today by email.

Various ways of defining 'aggressive'.  This is an onslaught.

http://ebm.email.chilternrailways.co.uk/c/tag/hBRFdfVB8ulmjB8wtfyAABTHx4E/doc.html

I didn't know they cared so!


Edit to shorten URL


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: eightf48544 on February 09, 2013, 14:48:07
I tend to use Chiltern, as one of the least worse TOCs, to buy on-line tickets so they have my email address.

I've had two emails recently advertising ^6 each way advanced tickets.


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: EBrown on February 09, 2013, 23:27:24
I got this today by email.
You may wish to remove your email address from that URI. Or a moderator may wish to do it for you. Or of course you may not care...

Sanitising the link will break it, so here is one with no email address in: http://ebm.email.chilternrailways.co.uk/c/tag/hBRFdfVB8ulmjB8wtfyAABTHx4E/


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: grahame on February 10, 2013, 01:47:55
I got this today by email.
You may wish to remove your email address from that URI. Or a moderator may wish to do it for you. Or of course you may not care...

Sanitising the link will break it, so here is one with no email address in: http://ebm.email.chilternrailways.co.uk/c/tag/hBRFdfVB8ulmjB8wtfyAABTHx4E/

Thanks - I've reduced it down to that URL that's much shorter too ... - G


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: swrural on February 10, 2013, 11:57:52
Thanks very much people.  I didn't know my email was in it, didn't notice.  Actually I am not *that* fussed.  People are unnecessarily bothered about email addresses.  I mean, if you on the electoral roll, everyone knows your physical address (far more threatening if you are the type who feels threatened) and there are loads of other ways to find out where you live.  Your email address (unless you purposely incorporate it!) says absolutely nothing about your physical whereabouts and your junk filters deal with ....  er, junk.
 
If you started to get emails from a troller or other low life, you just change your email address.

But once again, thanks, "get the protection of the FGWCS around you".

 ;)


Title: Re: Chiltern's agressive advertising!
Post by: EBrown on February 10, 2013, 14:45:41
  People are unnecessarily bothered about email addresses.
Err no.

The majority (>70%) of Advanced Persistent Threats (APT) are based on spear fishing and the use of social media to make it relevant.

Should an attacker wish to, they now have your email address and sufficient information to trick you into opening an email attachment.

So a spoofed email from XXX@firstgreatwestern.info or perhaps from any email address with a relevant message and an attachment you are inclined to open, has succeeded. Your computer is most likely now infected.


Passwords are supplemented by usernames. If you do not know the username you cannot log in. As email addresses are often interchangeable for usernames then you have one part of two required to specifically target you.



That people is why you should carefully distribute mail accounts. There are far more things I can tell you, but that should be enough to scare you.


Title: The Chiltern vs Virgin advertising war continues
Post by: Brucey on January 20, 2014, 07:29:33
This poster (image attached) has gone up at Marylebone this weekend.

I'm starting to find the whole "Chiltern vs Virgin" thing to be very boring now.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: didcotdean on January 21, 2014, 15:26:01
Chiltern paid for ad posters for their service from Haddenham and Thame Parkway all around Didcot a couple of years or so ago.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Btline on February 11, 2014, 19:40:56
Haha love it, better than the "don't be held to Branson" adverts!

To be fair, Chiltern have plastered Birmingham International and Coventry with adverts! Fair game.

If only there was more competition in the West! FGW have no reason to shorten journey times as they hold a monopoly (the SWT service is much slower) and there is no feasible way to get one in.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Timmer on February 11, 2014, 19:43:22
FGW have no reason to shorten journey times as they hold a monopoly (the SWT service is much slower)
Remember it's the Dft that sets the timetables not the TOCs.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Btline on February 11, 2014, 19:47:01
Did the Dft set Chiltern's timetable?

I'm sure the Dft, daft as they are, wouldn't prevent FGW removing the 20 minutes of padding that there is on Cotswold services!


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Timmer on February 11, 2014, 19:52:17
I'm sure the Dft, daft as they are, wouldn't prevent FGW removing the 20 minutes of padding that there is on Cotswold services!
Guess that would depend on whether removing the padding would affect FGW's performance figures  ;)


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: SDS on February 11, 2014, 22:24:41
Did the Dft set Chiltern's timetable?

I'm sure the Dft, daft as they are, wouldn't prevent FGW removing the 20 minutes of padding that there is on Cotswold services!

Yes and they got fined c.^500k for amending it in 2011 [to allow WS&MR paths].

Here's two choices for me with a walk up fare (Priv rate SOR) from London ANY to Birmingham ANY.

^41.00 with VIRGIN WEST COAST
or
^23.75 with CHILTERN RAILWAYS

I would clearly use CH with these prices and the free wi-fi is also attractive.



Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Network SouthEast on February 12, 2014, 12:34:53
Did the Dft set Chiltern's timetable?

I'm sure the Dft, daft as they are, wouldn't prevent FGW removing the 20 minutes of padding that there is on Cotswold services!

Yes and they got fined c.^500k for amending it in 2011 [to allow WS&MR paths].
Correct.

Originally fined ^500,000, but then later reduced by the DfT to ^350,000 following a backlash.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: BandHcommuter on February 12, 2014, 13:02:08
Did the Dft set Chiltern's timetable?

DfT specify Chiltern's "Passenger Service Requirement" (PSR). It can be found in schedule 3 of their franchise agreement:  https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/43237/RED_Chiltern_Franchise_Agreement.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/43237/RED_Chiltern_Franchise_Agreement.pdf). This specifies criteria such as frequencies, first and last trains etc. The timetable itself is developed by the train company in conjunction with Network Rail to meet (or exceed) this requirement. I understand that Chiltern got into hot water previously because they were using WSMR (an open access operator) to cover some of their franchise PSR obligations. In other franchises PSRs are termed SLCs (Service Level Commitments) and TSRs (Train Service Requirements) but the principle is similar.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: ChrisB on February 12, 2014, 14:02:08
Yup - if it hadn't been PSR obligations, they might well have got away with that.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Btline on February 13, 2014, 20:05:54
Why on earth did they get fined? As far as I remember, Wrexham and Shropshire didn't call at Chiltern stations, and ran "fast".

Typical of DFT to fine Chiltern Railways, by far the best and most innovative TOC since 1997.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Southern Stag on February 13, 2014, 20:56:57
At first Wrexham & Shropshire ran fast along the Chiltern route but it later days they started making calls along the route, which was when Chiltern got fined by the DfT.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: SDS on March 26, 2014, 21:29:30
http://asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2014/3/Chiltern-Railways-Company-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_242147.aspx

So it seems that Virgin crying to the ASA over Chilterns recent advertising didn't work.

Quote
Ad
Two ads for Chiltern Trains:

a. A press ad that wrapped around the front and back pages of a newspaper stated "Don't be held to Branson. Anytime Return to London - Virgin: ^158, Chiltern: ^95" and "Travel to London for 40% less. Book today" on the front page. Further text included "Try Mainline today ^ spacious carriages and more tables" and "Chiltern Mainline is more punctual than Virgin Trains".

b. A leaflet distributed at an airport included text that stated "YOUR BETTER WAY TO LONDON. BUT DON'T JUST TAKE OUR WORD FOR IT" and pictured speech bubbles below that featured text including "Chiltern Mainline is more punctual than Virgin Trains". Further text stated "WARWICK PARKWAY TO LONDON MARYLEBONE FROM ^6 ONE WAY ^ spacious carriages and more tables ^ Virgin Anytime ^158, Chiltern Anytime ^95**". Small print stated "**^95 'Anytime Return' fare applies on Chiltern Mainline trains from Warwick Parkway to London Marylebone, ^158 fare applies on Virgin Trains from Birmingham New Street and Birmingham International to London Euston".

Issue
Virgin Trains challenged whether:

1. the claim "Chiltern Mainline is more punctual than Virgin Trains" in ads (a) and (b) was misleading, because it compared their overall punctuality statistics rather than the specific journey being promoted in the ad; and

2. the claim "spacious carriages and more tables" in ads (a) and (b) was misleading, because they believed Chiltern Trains has fewer tables in its longest train than Virgin has in its Pendolino train.

CAP Code (Edition 12)
3.13.33.333.73.9
Response
1. Chiltern Railways Company Ltd t/a Chiltern Trains said they had based the claim on the most accurate punctuality statistics available; the right-time punctuality statistics published by Network Rail, which were publically available. They provided a copy of the statistics. They said this was the most reliable data as it showed the exact 'right-time' punctuality. They said the only other data set available was the Public Performance Measure, which was used by the government and involved different definitions of punctuality being applied to different operators. In the case of Chiltern Trains 'punctual' was defined as no more than five minutes late, whereas for Virgin Trains 'punctual' was defined as no more than ten minutes late. They said the right-time data was therefore a better comparator as it was based on the exact time a train was due to arrive and was therefore comparing the same thing for both operators. They said that the right-time data was only published for operators overall, and was not broken down into individual routes. Neither Network Rail nor Virgin Trains published right-time performance data by route and so they were only able to make an overall comparison. They said the claim did not state that it was route specific and they did not believe it implied that was the case. The right-time statistics for 12 October 2013 showed Chiltern Trains had 87.9% punctuality over the past 12 months and Virgin Trains had 48% punctuality. They said they used the right-time data as it was the most accurate, but that Public Performance Measure statistics were available on a route-level basis and also supported their claim. They provided the data for the routes in question. They said that even though the definition of punctuality applied to them was stricter than Virgin Trains', they had higher percentage punctuality than Virgin over the past 12 months.

2. Chiltern Trains said the claim was based on the fact that passengers on their trains had a higher chance of getting a table than those travelling on a Virgin train. They said they used two types of trains on their Chiltern Mainline services. In standard class on their 'silver' train there were tables at 80% of seats, and their 'clubman' trains had tables at 52% of seats. They said that Virgin trains had tables at 35% of seats in standard class. They supplied seating diagrams of the three train types in question. They said they believed that consumers were only interested in the chances of their own seat having a table, and the fact that Virgin Trains had more seats overall, because they had more carriages, was not relevant.

Assessment
1. Not upheld

The ASA considered that because the claim "Chiltern Mainline is more punctual than Virgin Trains" specifically referred to the Chiltern Mainline route, rather than Chiltern railways in general, consumers would expect the claim to be based on punctuality statistics for their Mainline route. Although we understood that Chiltern Trains had intended the claim to be based on the right-time punctuality statistics published by Network Rail, which were not broken down by route, route specific Public Performance Measure punctuality data was available. This data showed that over the past 12 months Chiltern Trains' Mainline route had punctuality of 95.5%, compared to 84.9% punctuality of Virgin Trains' London to West Midlands route. We noted that the measure of 'punctuality' in this data was not identical, but that the criterion of punctuality for Chiltern Trains was more stringent than that for Virgin Trains. We therefore concluded that the claim "Chiltern Mainline is more punctual than Virgin Trains" had been substantiated and was not misleading.

On this point we investigated ads (a) and (b) under CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 and 3.3 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation), 3.9 (Qualification) and 3.33 (Comparisons with identifiable competitors) but did not find them in breach.

2. Not upheld

We acknowledged that Virgin's trains had a greater number of tables overall, because of their greater number of carriages. However, we considered that consumers would understand the claim as a reference to the percentage of seats that had tables, as it was this that would determine their individual chance of obtaining a seat with a table rather than the overall number of tables. Chiltern Trains had demonstrated that a greater percentage of seats on their trains had tables than on Virgin's trains. We therefore concluded that the claim "spacious carriages and more tables" had been substantiated and was not misleading.

On this point we investigated ads (a) and (b) under CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 and 3.3 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation), 3.9 (Qualification) and 3.33 (Comparisons with identifiable competitors), but did not find them in breach.

Action
No further action necessary.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: JayMac on March 26, 2014, 22:18:33
Chiltern's latest dig at Virgin Trains at Birmingham Moor St:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/chvt_zps200e6f49.jpg)

 ;D


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 26, 2014, 22:55:08
Quote
1. Chiltern Railways Company Ltd t/a Chiltern Trains

And these guys are the arbiters of accuracy...?


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Brucey on March 27, 2014, 06:59:21
Quote
1. Chiltern Railways Company Ltd t/a Chiltern Trains

And these guys are the arbiters of accuracy...?
The logo on the side of trains and on the top of the website says Chiltern Railways.


Title: Re: Virgin vs Chiltern (and vice versa) advertising (merged topics)
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 27, 2014, 16:47:04
Yep, exactly. It should be "The Chiltern Railway Company Ltd t/a [trading as] Chiltern Railways".

The ASA appear to think it's "Chiltern Railways Company Ltd t/a Chiltern Trains". They've got the company name wrong twice (by missing the "The", and using "Railways" instead of "Railway") and the trading name is wrong too. Pedantic maybe, but an organisation charged with ensuring accuracy should really do better.



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