Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 09:34:35



Title: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 09:34:35
Ok, I think we've long established that what you got from FGW was paltry when compared with the other major inter city operators.  However, in my first day back after a five month hiatus I was shocked to discover:

1. They've removed all the cans from the free offerings on the trolley - for someone who does not really ike hot drinks, the removal of the coke, orangina and R Whites means I have - lets see, water - oh and orange juice.

2. They have stopped Friday wine (according to the host when I replied to discovering the above "next you'll be telling me they stopped the free wine on friday")

So just as the rices go up, they remove what little perks we got.  Nice move FGW.  Real nice.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 28, 2009, 17:15:45
Yes, it's pretty pathetic now. 



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: dog box on April 28, 2009, 18:05:08
what about the cranberry juice!!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 28, 2009, 18:46:16
Bad move. Virgin seem to manage to serve free meals to First passengers.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 19:11:29
Bad move. Virgin seem to manage to serve free meals to First passengers.

Exactly

in slough at the moment but I know next time Im in London, Virgin will be pretty attractive, even despite the crappy LM service from kiddie - better service but roughly ame price seasons!




Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: inspector_blakey on April 28, 2009, 19:26:37
It's a long time since I've seen the relevant statistics, but I believe that in terms of fare rises since privatization and price per mile, Virgin first class fares are rather more expensive than FGW (the proverbial free lunch, as ever, doesn't really exist...)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 19:30:42
It's a long time since I've seen the relevant statistics, but I believe that in terms of fare rises since privatization and price per mile, Virgin first class fares are rather more expensive than FGW (the proverbial free lunch, as ever, doesn't really exist...)

Walk on are significantly more expensive however:

WOS-PAD 1st class season = 1316.00 via Evesham or 1523.80 via Cheltenham

BHM - EUS 1st class season = 1215.40


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 28, 2009, 20:03:58
And Virgin do First Advance.

Kidderminster to Euston 1st Advance single is only about ^20* with a railcard (even ^30 without is a damn good deal). Obviously not a peak times, but FGW don't do any such fares!

I have decided to take advantage of the deal and will try my second first class trip on Virgin at some point in the future!

*Footnote, at ^5.50, the Standard Class Advance single is criminally cheap! (^3.70 with railcard!! :o )


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 23:17:45
It's been nearly a fortnight now, why has this thread taken so long to kick off...  ???



Because I think I'm the only muppet who does daily long commutes first class and I've been away for five months!

Generallym, you complain about first class, you often (not always but often) get told to lump it, every one else just wants to be able to sit down

Complaining about no diet coke on the trolley often requires a thick skin


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 28, 2009, 23:41:29
I still can't get over the fact that FGW shut the First Class Lounge at Bristol >:(

I must admit for someone who doesn't drink alcohol, the Friday Night Wine doesn't really bother me. Although the soft drinks removal is unfair. They have them with Orange Juice, Blackcurrent Juice and Cranberry Juice. But that is assuming everybody likes fruit juice.

I do like the new biscuits, shortbread that you can dunk in a cup of tea  :o So Good... ;D ::)

I'm starting to liken the offerings of XC over FGW now. With XC you can get a breakfast bap or sandwich, biscuits, pretzels, yogurts and Tea, Coffee, OJ, (Diet) Coke, Lemonade and Water!

Even better is the rather fantasic Wrexham & Shropshire. Complimentary Meal served at seat, on proper crockery, metal knives and forks, and a china cup of hot drinks ;D

London Midland don't offer any complimentary items, but I found the catering prices on my Liverpool - Birmingham N S trip were quite reasonable, ^1 for a cup of tea ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 28, 2009, 23:46:48


I must admit for someone who doesn't drink alcohol, the Friday Night Wine doesn't really bother me. Although the soft drinks removal is unfair. They have them with Orange Juice, Blackcurrent Juice and Cranberry Juice. But that is assuming everybody likes fruit juice.



Off the record - the TM tonight alluded as to why - they are trying to stop people taking the trolley items away with them - fruit juice you cant take to drink later.

I spent ^15 in the buffet (as I do most nights) and took two sparkling waters for consumption later - in a friendly way it was pointed out that this was why the cans were stopped - which to my mind is pettry - just do what virgin do - open them as you hand them to the passenger and claim it is service

The friday night wine is not a major issue but it sums up that they dont really do first class

The problem with the juices, is that if one is on a diet, consumption of fruit juice for 5.0 hours a day is not a good idea which really does limit you to .......... water - yeugh - hot drinks


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: super tm on April 29, 2009, 07:29:47
I still can't get over the fact that FGW shut the First Class Lounge at Bristol >:(

The lounge was very little used.  Less than 50 people a day.  Most FGW 1st class passengers going to London have a train waiting in platfroms 13 15 for most of the day.  You could say there is more of a need to have a lounge at Bath.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on April 29, 2009, 09:10:05
To be accurate, its OJ, Apple and Blackberry or Cranberry Juice ( although quite why there is an expectation for 1st class passengers to have cystitis I don't know!  :P ), or fizzy or flat water.

To be fair, there's no "or" about it - you are still allowed combinations, so for instance instead of Orangina you can "make your own" with Orange Juice and fizzy water (as indeed I did yesterday).



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 29, 2009, 11:10:31
The lounge was very little used.  Less than 50 people a day.  Most FGW 1st class passengers going to London have a train waiting in platfroms 13 15 for most of the day.  You could say there is more of a need to have a lounge at Bath.

That was the problem with the Lounge, and not many passengers knew it was there, and even less so knew that SWT & XC passengers were permitted access into the Lounge. Provided it said 1ST on the ticket, you were welcome...!

Having the Lounge at Bath would make sense, but finding somewhere to put it would be the issue. I can think of a few places, but all of which would cause somebody to moan:

Converting the Pumpkin coffee shop on Platform 1 to a FC Lounge...? No - Pumpkin wouldn't like that!

What about the Customer Lounge on Platform 1? No - Passengers would complain about having to wait in the cold!

Customer Lounge on Platform 2? No - Same reasons as above, and you can only access the toilets through the Lounge!

Disabled Toilet on Platform 2? No - Station Staff use this, It would be too small and wouldn't be fair to Disabled Passengers to make them go all the way over to P1 Just to use the loo!

I'm beginning to wish they'd roll out WiFi on the trains, even if it was a BTOpenZone service or The Cloud, I wouldn't mind...! I have accounts with the former and latter ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 29, 2009, 11:41:58
Bad move. Virgin seem to manage to serve free meals to First passengers.

Indeed, and FGW wont even serve PAID FOR meals on most trains to First class, now only two restaurants a day!
And no, IMHO,  a toasted sandwich from the travelling chef is not a proper meal.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on April 29, 2009, 14:47:00

The traveling chef does a lot more than toasties, and if you are in 1st it is served on a plate with cutlery at seat. I don't know where you get the idea it's not (oh hang on, I just noticed, it's opinion, not facts you are dealing in  ::) )

Hmmm. Last time I ordered a bacon and egg buttie it came in a polystyrene container with a plastic fork - certainly not a proper plate and some way from what I'd consider a full set of "cutlery"

I've also more than once witnessed "customer hosts" sending passengers to the buffet to order themselves, particularly at busy times, which hardly counts as at seat service.

As it happens I travel First Class at least once a week and have done for over a decade, so I for one at least am dealing here with facts rather than opinion.




Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 29, 2009, 15:26:20
The last two times I used the travelling chef service in first class, no at seat service was offered, the only hot food was toasted sandwiches, served in a cardboard box.
I appreciate that this is not allways the case, but it does happen frequently.

I once got a decent steak sandwich, served on a plate at the table, however the usual traveling chef service appears to be what used to be called a hot buffet.
Nothing like a proper Pullman restaurant.

And when table service is provided, orders appear to be taken only one or two at a time, with no more taken until these have been served.
If say a dozen customers want a snack, the last ones wait an hour.
When a proper restaurant is provided, 20 or more orders are taken at once, and served more or less together, suprisingly quickly with an experienced team, and almost allways to a very high standard.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on April 29, 2009, 18:04:47
I heard from a reliable source that the Friday wine thing had gone, and also confirm the reasons about people taking cans of coke etc away with them as the reason why they've gone.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 29, 2009, 18:16:20
I heard from a reliable source that the Friday wine thing had gone, and also confirm the reasons about people taking cans of coke etc away with them as the reason why they've gone.

Very simple solution, customer hosts hands over can of coke, and pops the top at the same time

No need to throw the baby out with the bath water


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on April 29, 2009, 18:54:28
I heard from a reliable source that the Friday wine thing had gone, and also confirm the reasons about people taking cans of coke etc away with them as the reason why they've gone.

Must admit, i've done that before, however the trolley failed to show between Plymouth and Tiverton, where I wished to alight...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 30, 2009, 09:48:34
And sometimes at seat service is somewhat lacking - take this morning

On the train at WOS - "two waters and some ice please."  The usual, I'll get the ice next time I'm in the buffet.  No worries.

By honeybourne, trolley passes down again - "any idea where the ice is?"  - I'm busy I'll get it later

By Charlbury - "you know I'd really like to drink these before I get to Reading, have you found the ice yet?"

Comes back from buffet - "I'm sorry, all the ice has melted"

He didnt react well when I suggested had he got it over an hour ago when first asked it might still be semi solid.  His excuse was, he was busy - 1st class was only 1/2 full until oxford!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 30, 2009, 10:58:06
I travelled XC a couple of months back, I placed an order for a cup of tea... 30 minutes later... No Cup of Tea >:(

Infact, had it not have been for the fact the toilets in FC weren't working which resulted in me walking through the TCC to get to one, I probably wouldn't have got the tea at all! Fortunately on my return to FC, a tea was waiting for me in the TCC ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 30, 2009, 15:07:18
As regards the above, I'm not going to defend laziness.  I know how it should be done, and how I wouls do it. I'm not going to defend sloppy, lazy staff, as they give the good staff a bad name. All I can say is, if you are not happy with the service in 1st class, complain to the company - no point in taking it out on the TM or the CH.  Eventualy, if the same names or routes figure often enough, certain people will have to justify their performance, both CHs and their managers. 

Some CH's are great, some are a waste of oxygen (bit like passengers really!  :P)

I do not think I have ever taken anything out on the CH or TM - the tone got lost in the typing.

It was not said angrily more sardonically - sadly I do not think the CH had the wit to work out what I meant.

And I have complained to the TC


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 30, 2009, 18:10:39
As regards the above, I'm not going to defend laziness.  I know how it should be done, and how I wouls do it. I'm not going to defend sloppy, lazy staff, as they give the good staff a bad name. All I can say is, if you are not happy with the service in 1st class, complain to the company - no point in taking it out on the TM or the CH.  Eventualy, if the same names or routes figure often enough, certain people will have to justify their performance, both CHs and their managers. 

I agree 100% with that, Normally I get an absolutely fantastic service from the CH's and TM's. Some of them even remember how I like my drink, which IMO is exceptional customer service, bearing in mind the amount of pax they serve on a daily basis!

I personally have never taken my temper out on a staff member for a delay or similar, Having a go or shouting at people doesn't solve anything. It's not like it's the staff members fault...?!

Quote
Some CH's are great, some are a waste of oxygen (bit like passengers really!  :P)

;D ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 30, 2009, 20:33:44
Back to the original subject, gave feedback to the On Board Services Manager today as I prepared to alight at Swindon. Said how disappointed I was at the removal of cans and asked why. Simple answer - financial. No mention of people taking too many.

She neatly moved the conversation around to what I thought of the rest of the changes, to which I replied that I was really disappointed that Burts crisps had been replaced by the fiery salt and black pepper ones that leave a taste in your mouth long after you've left the train. She admitted there was divided opinion on those (ie most people hate them, which is what a couple of CH's told me) . Maybe, by having less popular one, they'll give out fewer, thus saving even more money.

Ironically, in the latest on board magazine, there's a full page advert for Burt's crisps, highlighting the range that is no longer available in the buffet, since they've also been replaced by the new make. How's that for planning. You can just imagine it."Will you advertise in our magazine?" "Oh go on then". Next week,"Sorry, thanks for the advert, we've dumped you."

Hope Burts got their money back.   



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: woody on April 30, 2009, 20:54:52
Heard from sources within FGW that the standard Weekend First upgrade is to replaced by a tariff based on distance similar to Crosscountry.ie starting from ^25 Penzance/Paddington reducing with distance.Any truth in it.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Sprog on April 30, 2009, 21:17:50
Yes, they have also changed the way the staff upgrade system is structured.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: vacman on April 30, 2009, 21:47:44
I'm glad that the Pullmans are going, it takes up to 5 staff to run and it runs at a major loss! a couple of months back the down "Hind" was short formed with no coach "H", an unfortunate situation, however, the Restaurant was still laid up and people with first class tickets in "F" who did not want to eat were asked to move to standard as the FC was full, so in the end there were STANDARD passengers sat in "F" who wanted food and freeloaded their way to Cornwall long after the restaurant had finished and First class passengers sat in "E"! The new travelling chef menu is far more appertizing and cheap!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on April 30, 2009, 23:08:53
I'm glad that the Pullmans are going, it takes up to 5 staff to run and it runs at a major loss! a couple of months back the down "Hind" was short formed with no coach "H", an unfortunate situation, however, the Restaurant was still laid up and people with first class tickets in "F" who did not want to eat were asked to move to standard as the FC was full, so in the end there were STANDARD passengers sat in "F" who wanted food and freeloaded their way to Cornwall long after the restaurant had finished and First class passengers sat in "E"! The new travelling chef menu is far more appertizing and cheap!

So how do Virgin manage it


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: willc on May 01, 2009, 00:57:11
By only serving at-seat food to first class passengers, and including it in the ticket price. Since Pendolinos arrived, standard class can only get buffet food, not a sit-down meal.

And I don't think anyone has ever made much money out of on-train catering. If the service covers its direct costs, that's seen as about the best you can expect. It's usually just regarded as part of providing a good customer experience. For the time being, at least in first class, Virgin still see it that way - like an airline meal. National Express clearly don't, or believe it was costing them too much and FGW's decision is probably common sense, if these two West Country trains account for the overwhelming share of the full-service meals they were selling.

For the rest of its commuterised network, Travelling Chef looks a better bet. Just hope that they actually get the promotion of it right at long last, after several years of pretty half-hearted efforts.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on May 01, 2009, 17:56:47
I think the Virgin way is the way to go.

Serve quality meals, with china etc., on key peak trains (i.e. where Anytime tickets only are valid - making sure a profit it made), free of charge to First Class passengers.

Yes, it means Standard passengers have to go without, but the Virgin way is viable. I commend them for attempting to retain a dining service.

FGW should re-instate the Pullman service on key peak trains, but serve it free to First Class passengers only, in both carriages. Then switch the Coach F seating into Standard Class seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on May 01, 2009, 18:00:30
I think having up to 500 Travelling Chef customers is far more lucrative. Instead of 100 free Pullman meals making a collosal lost.

Maybe give First Class ticket holders 50% discount on purchases or something.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: r james on May 01, 2009, 19:11:02
I thought FGW were going to consider wifi?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on May 01, 2009, 19:25:46

FGW should re-instate the Pullman service on key peak trains, but serve it free to First Class passengers only, in both carriages. Then switch the Coach F seating into Standard Class seats.

Assuming the 0730 Bristol TM to Paddington is a key train (it's the only one that appears to be recognised as such currently by virtue of having a Travelling Chef), I could get up a bit earlier and have a free full brekkie every morning on my way to work.  All for ^18 per day. That would be hopelessly uneconomic for FGW, as well as very bad news for my waist and cholestoral level. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on May 01, 2009, 20:57:35
Is a First Class return ^18?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on May 01, 2009, 21:26:40
Quite obviously not.

Presumably its a break down of John R's annual/monthly season ticket.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on May 01, 2009, 21:27:30
Average daily cost, Nailsea to Swindon based on an annual season and number of working days less holidays etc.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 02, 2009, 07:16:43
I have been reminded (by moderators, rather than any of the posters here) of an element of the forum agreement which states:

Quote
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is ... invasive of a person's privacy ...

There's some concern that we're getting close to the border line of this thread getting too personal - potentially in "both directions". Can I ask all posters to ensure a good example is set on this part of the forum, which is public facing.

Edit to add ... When combined with some later posts, there was a handful of posts in this thread which were potentially invasive of privacy and I have just (20:33 on 4th May) removed them. This may mean that some of the other comments below look a little odd - my apologies for this, but I've better things to do than to rewrite everyone's posts ... and if I did, someone would sure as heck object!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on May 02, 2009, 09:09:13
I think having up to 500 Travelling Chef customers is far more lucrative. Instead of 100 free Pullman meals making a collosal lost.

Maybe give First Class ticket holders 50% discount on purchases or something.

500 travelling chef customers ! never ! at least not on the same train, if the service appears at all, it can only cope with a handfull of orders at a time.
Orders are taken two or three at a time, with no more orders taken until these have been prepared and served.

On key trains, bring back pullmans, not free which I fear would be hopeleslesly un-economic, but at about the present price, even if not profitable.
The facility to purchase a proper meal at a fair price, should be part of the first class travell experience.

As others point out, Virgin manage to do it for free, so surely FGW could manage a paid for meal service.
As also pointed out above, to provide free meals on FGW is unlikely to be viable due to the many relativly cheap journey oportunities, where the cost of the meal would be a fair % of the fare.

The pullman should be mainly for first class ticket holders, with standard class only being admitted if space permits (this is supposed to be the case now, but is not enforced)
I would certainly not wish to see first class, non dining passengers have to use standard class, in order to make room for standard class passengers eating in coach F which has first class seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: willc on May 02, 2009, 13:44:35
Virgin don't do it for free - not does anyone offering free/inclusive food, snacks, drinks. The fares always include an allowance for this, even if it is just to cover the cost of providing it - they're not in business to lose money.

That's how Ryanair claims to offer flights for a fiver, by stripping out all the elements that make up the all-inclusive fare of other airlines, then adding them back on when you do outrageous things like wanting to take a suitcase with you when you go on holiday.

Restaurant car meals are expensive to provide, and with speeded up journeys since the 1970s, far fewer people have been eating them, so they have been the first target when it comes to cost-cutting in the current economic climate. Even Virgin's offer is pretty tightly controlled, with only sandwiches and snacks from 10am to 4pm and after 7pm.

And never mind providing dining seats, I'm sure the TMs out here will attest that there are a good number of FGW peak services which need every one of the first class seats in the buffet cars for paying passengers who have no interest whatever in a sit-down meal. If you were to put in standard class seats, and turn the buffet car round, you would be short of first class seats on these trains and have FC customer hosts having to fight their way past the buffet queue with hot food. Hmm...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on May 02, 2009, 21:48:28


I do not think I have ever taken anything out on the CH or TM - the tone got lost in the typing. -

o yes you have. You have upset quite a few Train Managers with your refusal to offer up for examination your season ticket. you normally just leave it on the table in its closed railcard holder and when asked for your ticket you just point to it on the table.



I believe there were three isolated incidents - two of them were with someone who is universally hated by most staff and passengers alike (I say most - I'm know at least one CH who like the individual), especially now I believe he has been promoted to hated management. 

The other occasion I was ill and just wanted to get home



If its the person I think you are talking about - only disliked by staff who wanted to do as little as possible and passengers who didnt like having their tickets checked properly and being asked to buy a ticket if they didnt have one.

And from conversations I have overheard, your unwillingness to hand your season ticket to train managers in the same way that tens of thousands of other passengers do every week was on more than 3 occasions and certainly involved more than one or two train managers.

people in glass houses etc etc.......

Nope - 2 - a woman out of london and the subtext individual.

Now, I do always leave the ticket on the table when I sit down - apart from those two instances, no one has EVER asked me to hand it to them!  They just see it and check it.  The woman out of London irritated me because she could be ****** bothered to step away from the door in the buffet.  And yes, I have a problem with the subtext individual and the demeanour displayed.  Sums up everything I hate about the current attitude - assume everyone is evading until prove otherwise



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 03, 2009, 02:03:38
Thanks for your post, flamingo.

- As I'm sure most staff on here know by now who is being refered to by mookiemoo, I'll personally nail my colours to the mast and say that, although while not perfect (who is, I'm not), I do think that the individual that is being refered to was a very good TM (and a scourge to fare dodgers and others who tried to play the system) and is shaping up to be good in his new role. I also am surprised that the Mod's have not deleted the posts, as it is pretty obvious who is been refered to, but as they remain, I'm going to defend him.

I'll leave our members to comment on other aspects of your well-articulated post, but I would like to reply specifically to your point about the moderators' role here, if I may (as it's happened 'on my watch')?

I must emphasize that it is not the style of moderation on this forum to simply delete posts by members: that is seen very much as a last resort - and those very few 'offending' posts tend to be removed 'behind the scenes' (not deleted outright) even in those cases, while the 'rights and wrongs' are debated.

In this particular case, while it may seem clear to some FGW staff who is being referred to in this topic, no names have been mentioned, and we in the admin team have been content to monitor this topic, without stepping in, while it remains so.  However, you would possibly be flattered if you knew just what close attention we have been giving to this (and another) topic, just to make sure that these discussions remain within the terms of the forum agreement.

Please feel free to continue this discussion on the removal of First Class perks, and any related off-shoots: provided it doesn't get personal, we moderators will not need to step in.

Chris.  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 03, 2009, 09:19:33
- Regarding a specific comment about an "assume everybody is evading until they prove otherwise" - of course we do, if you think about it for 10 seconds, why the hell do you think they get checked!

"Assume everyone is guilty until proven innocent" ... I had always taken it that (looking at a coach with 50 people in it), you would be taking an open mind as you speak with each of them, and assume that the majority were properly ticketed. How often do you find when you check all the tickets on a train that the majority have had an opportunity to purchase correct tickets already, but have intentionally failed to do so?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on May 03, 2009, 10:09:46
- As a general comment on ticket checking for the benefit of season ticket holders out there, a "correct" ticket check involves the TM taking the ticket into their hand to confirm that the paper and print are correct , and comparing the number with the photocard, and the photocard with the individual proffering it. 
The assumption that season tickets do not need to be checked (the number of bad tempered sighs and eyes rolled up to heaven from season ticket holders) when doing a full ticket check constantly amazes me.  Just to illustrate what we are up against, a few weeks ago I (very politely) asked an individual to show his season ticket again as he'd been so quick flipping it up and back (upside-down) that I hadn't seen it properly - I was subjected to a harangue from him on the platform at Chippenham on a Friday evening to the effect that "He paid ^800 a month for his season ticket, shouldn't have to show it, and I needed to work on my customer service skills and find a new job". (It couldn't have been EK, as it hasn't featured in his blog!).

My only complaint about season ticket checks on HSS is that they don't seem to happen often enough. Couple of times a week by my reckoning. I would welcome you check my ticket in the manner you suggest every single day, as it would mean that the freeloaders and fraudsters would get caught more often.

 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devonian on May 03, 2009, 19:36:14
Just got to log in, to comment on posts since my last post:
 - I didn't mean to imply any poster took their frustrations out on the TM's, it was a general comment on future behavior (guilty consciences kicking in?)

 - Regarding a specific comment about an "assume everybody is evading until they prove otherwise" - of course we do, if you think about it for 10 seconds, why the hell do you think they get checked! Go through checking tickets for a week, and you will hear every excuse possible - to the extent that if I hear a new excuse, I'm inclined to let them away with it purely for the novelty value.

 

That's fine - but you can then hardly expect law abiding fare paying passengers not to get a little 'annoyed' when they are automatically assumed guilty. I for one have got mightly pee'd off with ticket checking staff who were rude and down right unpleasent. Passengers pay enough to at least get a little respect. A distinction needs to be made - you can't assume everyone is trying to get a ride for free.

And this doesn't apply to everyone for sure - I have had some very understanding ticket checks - but then I have explained any situation clearly and have never been in the wrong (to the best of my knowledge).

I've worked in a variety of customer facing roles and now run my own business. If I were to address my customers in the manner in which some ticket checks are carried out when it comes to paying, I would be losing custom.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on May 03, 2009, 21:11:58
That's fine - but you can then hardly expect law abiding fare paying passengers not to get a little 'annoyed' when they are automatically assumed guilty. I for one have got mightly pee'd off with ticket checking staff who were rude and down right unpleasent. Passengers pay enough to at least get a little respect. A distinction needs to be made - you can't assume everyone is trying to get a ride for free.

I must admit, I'm inclined to agree with this. As mentioned elsewhere, I'm fortunate in having an employer who sees fit to reward my particular employment status with First Class train travel. It so happens that I also rather enjoy rock music, so I regularly use my Anytime Return ticket to travel back from London not during peak time but late at night, having stayed on after business hours to change into jeans and a T-shirt and go watch a band.

I am invariably made to feel really uncomfortable by FGW staff who quite frankly ought to know better than to make snap judgements based purely on appearances.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on May 03, 2009, 21:20:06
I think that's a problem not just specific to FGW.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on May 03, 2009, 22:36:19
That's fine - but you can then hardly expect law abiding fare paying passengers not to get a little 'annoyed' when they are automatically assumed guilty. I for one have got mightly pee'd off with ticket checking staff who were rude and down right unpleasent. Passengers pay enough to at least get a little respect. A distinction needs to be made - you can't assume everyone is trying to get a ride for free.

I must admit, I'm inclined to agree with this. As mentioned elsewhere, I'm fortunate in having an employer who sees fit to reward my particular employment status with First Class train travel. It so happens that I also rather enjoy rock music, so I regularly use my Anytime Return ticket to travel back from London not during peak time but late at night, having stayed on after business hours to change into jeans and a T-shirt and go watch a band.

I am invariably made to feel really uncomfortable by FGW staff who quite frankly ought to know better than to make snap judgements based purely on appearances.

But this is the point of my issue...............

I regularly travel as a scruff - tracksuits/t shirts etc - because I like to spend 2.5 hours comfy not dressed in office gear.

I then have two issues:

1. The TM's who (on at least 2 occasions ) have directed me to standard as I get on in F

2. The aforementioned issue I have with people assuming I am trying to dodge the fare!

The problem is - SOME staff assume (2).



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Mookiemoo on May 03, 2009, 23:25:39
(and a scourge to fare dodgers and others who tried to play the system) and is shaping up to be good in his new role. I also am surprised that the Mod's have not deleted the posts, as it is pretty obvious who is been refered to, but as they remain, I'm going to defend him.


But from the customer side - should the issue be fare dodging?  I'm open about the YP issue and wont cry if its closed off BUT - I AM NOT A FSARE dodger!  but I do not like the attitude!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on May 04, 2009, 17:55:24
Going back to the original topic; would it not make more sense to entice more people into First Class?

  • Free wifi (a charge in Standard)
  • A range of free complimentary items
  • Reinstate Friday night wine
  • 50% off purchases from the Buffet

I'd like to think that the additional expenditure would counterbalance with increased First Class renenue?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on May 04, 2009, 18:05:46
This post criticises FGW on the Cotswold line only:

Virgin have First Advance Fares (e.g. London - Birmingham about ^20 with railcard), and give free meals (peak) or free food/drink (off-peak), with proper China etc.

FGW have no First Advance Fares on the Cotswold Line, and yet the free food/drink selection is poor, meals are not free and are served in a cardboard box!

At an extra hundred quid a ticket, what are you paying for? Leather seats? Better travelling environment. No - half the time, you end up on a Thames Turbo, and sit in standard class quality seats!

I am surprised FGW get ANY First Class passengers on lines like the Cotswold.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on May 04, 2009, 18:07:54
First Class customers do get food served on plates  ???


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on May 04, 2009, 19:00:07
First Class customers do get food served on plates  ???

Firstly,

Quote
The last two times I used the travelling chef service in first class, no at seat service was offered, the only hot food was toasted sandwiches, served in a cardboard box.

And even if this is rare, having a Thames Turbo on the Cotswolds is not rare, and Thames Turbos don't have microwaves, let along China!

I can't see how FGW can justify their Worcester/Hereford First Class prices.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: moonrakerz on May 04, 2009, 21:12:25

"Assume everyone is guilty until proven innocent" ...


Regrettably, this appears to be more and more commonplace in this day and age, not just on the trains. Parking offences, minor traffic offences and of course my favourite - TV Licensing who threaten you with: "WARNING - this property is unlicensed",  "fines", "visits from enforcement officers", "interviews under PACE" - just because you don't have a TV Licence ! The fact that you don't have a TV seems to be immaterial to them !


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: willc on May 06, 2009, 12:00:39
Quote
having a Thames Turbo on the Cotswolds is not rare

Off-peak, no, but in the morning peak, when the overwhelming majority of first class tickets are sold on the route, all the trains from Hereford and Worcester except the halts train are HSTs, while in the evening, everything from London from the 15.51 to the last train at 21.48 is an HST.

FGW don't offer First Advance fares because they don't need to on those morning trains - most of the seats are filled anyway. With a Pendolino from Birmingham every 20 minutes morning noon and night and three coaches to fill, of course Virgin need to do more to shift tickets.

Off-peak, first class custom on the Cotswold Line is limited and FGW don't seem overly bothered about it. Even on the 8.52 from Malvern, when it was an Adelante or HST, you would have struggled to fill one coach, and anyone travelling at that time probably isn't interested in anything more than a free tea or coffee.

From the late 1980s until the Turbos arrived, you couldn't even get a first class seat off-peak anyway, since the service was provided by 150s and 155s, except for one out-and-back HST to Malvern.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 02, 2013, 20:00:00
Going back to the original topic; would it not make more sense to entice more people into First Class?

  • Free wifi (a charge in Standard)
  • A range of free complimentary items
[li]Reinstate Friday night wine[/li]
[li]50% off purchases from the Buffet[/li]
[/list]

I'd like to think that the additional expenditure would counterbalance with increased First Class renenue?

To my surprise I was offered a glass of wine this evening. When I asked I was told it was going to be a new thing every Wednesday. I'm sure the customer host was still at school when Friday wine was withdrawn, so I'd didn't bore him with the history, but is it true? Is Wednesday wine back?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: jester on October 02, 2013, 21:12:53
Wednesday wine has been back for about a month now!! 5pm to 8pm ish, enjoy!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 02, 2013, 22:21:30
Well that's curious - I've not been offered it before, and I've most definitely been travelling on Wednesdays. But good news!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on October 02, 2013, 23:56:42
The following Email is not going to please some First Class people.

"Please note that one of the early franchise changes will be declassification of one of the first class sections on a 166 turbo, so that like a 165 there will only be 1 compartment for first class. They are initially removing internal signs and later external signs."

"Progressively from 2nd October to 14th October 2013 one of the two First Class compartments in the three car Class 166 fleet will be de-classified and made available for the use of standard ticket holders. This will be a two stage process. Stage 1 will see internal de-classification with the locking open of the sliding door and removal of First Class stickers and antimacassars. A second stage delivered later twill remove external branding. The de-classification applies to a particular unit at the point it appears in service with stage 1 de-classification complete."


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on October 03, 2013, 05:33:23
That'll be fun spotting which is which as a train pulls in between phases I and II!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Busboy W1 on October 03, 2013, 09:45:01
Surely Sat/Sun services through to the Cotswolds are going to be comfy shall we say in 1st. The 1st through service on a Sunday from GMV often sees 1st full at both ends if its a 166 before OXF. Hopefully 1W47 the now famous 15:52 ex PAD will not be Turbotised after the 14th as 1st is most definitely full and that a 180. However I'm sure that there are some LTV services that will struggle also.

In regards to the Cotswold Line maybe the CLPG should get involved now as First has been awarded the franchise until September 2015!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 03, 2013, 13:00:09
At the Meet the Manager session at Paddington on the 19th Sept I had a long conversation with two representatives about the myth and reality of 1st Class travel.

I pointed out FGW's own marketing from its website which promises the following, and lives up to very little:

What we offer:
^a warm welcome on board - I don't think anyone has ever even said hello to me.
^reclining, spacious leather seats on board our High Speed services - seats are increasingly broken.  Today for example I tried 5 seats before I found one that would recline.
^quiet, relaxed atmosphere - not even in the Quiet Carriage can I find peace due to FGW's inability to enforce their own rules.
^tables at every seat, with power sockets for your laptop or mobile phone - Yep, I'll give them this.  They do have tables on HST's, but not on Turbos which increasingly replace HST's for my journeys
^room to work or relax - as above
^at-seat service from one of our Customer Hosts on many journeys* - nope.  I've made 300+ 1st class journeys this year and have seen 2 trolleys. 
^complimentary refreshments throughout your journey - as above, unless I want to queue. 
^a selection of products from our Express Caf^ that you can buy at your seat* - and again
^complimentary newspaper* - Throughout the summer the quantity of papers available appeared to be slashed resulting in no paper, or having to queue for 10mins at the buffet because they couldn't be bothered to put them out.
^access to First Class Lounges at London Paddington and Cardiff Central. - Whatever.

They were rather diappointed with my experience.  But not as much as I am.

I also pointed out that I was able to travel from Maidenhead to Par, both ways, in 1st Class, without anyone checking my ticket - including at either end.  The whole carriage looked like it had been declassified (which it hadn't) and yet no one could be bothered to ask for tickets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on October 03, 2013, 13:54:54
Well that's curious - I've not been offered it before, and I've most definitely been travelling on Wednesdays. But good news!

I've been offered it twice. Last night I wasn't offered it though it was on the trolley. I forgot it was complimentary until the trolley had gone by.
Maybe it'll take a little more time to bed in.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on October 04, 2013, 11:29:09
The following Email is not going to please some First Class people.

"Please note that one of the early franchise changes will be declassification of one of the first class sections on a 166 turbo, so that like a 165 there will only be 1 compartment for first class. They are initially removing internal signs and later external signs."

"Progressively from 2nd October to 14th October 2013 one of the two First Class compartments in the three car Class 166 fleet will be de-classified and made available for the use of standard ticket holders. This will be a two stage process. Stage 1 will see internal de-classification with the locking open of the sliding door and removal of First Class stickers and antimacassars. A second stage delivered later twill remove external branding. The de-classification applies to a particular unit at the point it appears in service with stage 1 de-classification complete."

I noticed this morning that the First Class at the 'country' end of 166203 had received the internal declassification treatment, but the external '1' numeral had also been removed (with a 'shadow' left behind) although the yellow cantrail stripe was still in place.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Busboy W1 on October 04, 2013, 11:43:25
The Country end of 201 & 220 have been declassified internally only as of yesterday p.m. All the changes with the 1st class on the 166s is due to be completed by Oct 14th. Although I was under the impression they were due to depart for their C6 Refurb rather soon ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 04, 2013, 11:45:35
How long before the complaints come in from 1st Class Season ticket holders that they can no longer get a seat?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on October 04, 2013, 11:50:09
How long before the complaints come in from 1st Class Season ticket holders that they can no longer get a seat?

They'll just have to be told their seat is not guaranteed then, just like any standard class seat... 

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on October 04, 2013, 11:52:35
How long before the complaints come in from 1st Class Season ticket holders that they can no longer get a seat?
They were probably already complaining about not getting a seat in 1st class due to it being full of standard class travellers as a result of a lack of ticket checks.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on October 04, 2013, 11:56:11

They'll just have to be told their seat is not guaranteed then, just like any standard class seat... 

Paul
Indeed.

As far as I know, only Heathrow Express promise 1st class ticket holders a seat. If you travel on a Heathrow Express train with a 1st class ticket and can't get a seat in 1st, you'll get a refund OR a ticket for another journey (HEX condition of carriage 5.1).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 04, 2013, 12:17:57
They'll just have to be told their seat is not guaranteed then, just like any standard class seat... 

Along with being told that, I suspect Customer Relations will be paying out the odd 'goodwill gesture'. Doesn't do to upset 1st Class Season holders. They can be quite vocal and/or may decide it's no longer worth paying for a 1st Class Season if they have to stand. That can have quite an impact on revenue.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 04, 2013, 14:20:51
The First Class 'guarantee' of a seat already only applies to HST's and not Turbos. 
As someone who can't decode the different carriage types described above, are HST provisions being reduced or only Turbo's?

As someone who pays the extra for First Class specifically and only to get a seat I can tell you that I would be cancelling my upgrade faster than you can rip out a buffet car.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 04, 2013, 16:38:00
I think it comes under the NRCoC for any TOC where if you have a First Class ticket and you have to sit in Standard Class because there is no room in First Class. You're entitled to claim the cost between the 1ST and STD Tickets.

I have successfully done this in the past with first off peak Paddington train from Taunton. One notable occasion I was eating my breakfast from the Travelling Chef stood at the buffet counter. That was the 2+6 set that was running around for a while, it was certainly rather cosy in First Class... ::)

I regularly had to do this with CrossCountry Trains also back in my Taunton days... However that is just the tip of the iceberg and a conversation for a different thread on a different day ;)



Nick to decode the difference:

  • HSTs have the manual doors with handles on the outside (Where you need to drop the window to open the door from outside)
  • Turbos are the 2 or 3 car units which have a First Class Compartment. (The carriage is technically known as a Driving Motor Composite Open with Lavatory or DMCoL for short)
  • Adelante sets have a single First Class Carriage in Coach D with automatic doors.

Sorry if you already know this, but it's also a description for new comers... Even old hands can sometimes forget what runs around the FGW network... (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5936.msg57295#msg57295)  :-[ :P :o :D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on October 04, 2013, 16:55:31
NR CofC actually refers to first class accomodation being unavailable:

Quote
38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

It may be that 'full and standing' is not the same as 'unavailable', however perhaps TOCs treat it the same anyway...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Busboy W1 on October 04, 2013, 16:59:37
Just seen the 15:52 Ex Padd leave Oxf 6 late full and standing throughout and 1st looked busier than normal. The only thing about 180s is there is more standing room. Albeit hot and stinky but if this was to be Turbotised for any reason I'm sure people would be left behind.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on October 04, 2013, 18:42:04
The First Class 'guarantee' of a seat already only applies to HST's and not Turbos. 
As someone who can't decode the different carriage types described above, are HST provisions being reduced or only Turbo's?

As someone who pays the extra for First Class specifically and only to get a seat I can tell you that I would be cancelling my upgrade faster than you can rip out a buffet car.
Only Turbos are having a small section of First Class removed for now but rumours suggest that HSTs will also have one carriage converted to Standard Class as part of the new franchise deal


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 04, 2013, 20:31:00
NR CofC actually refers to first class accomodation being unavailable:

Quote
38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

It may be that 'full and standing' is not the same as 'unavailable', however perhaps TOCs treat it the same anyway...

Paul

I seem to recall I've made this mistake before... :-X You are of course, right. However I have normally received a refund in the event that I had to sit in Standard with a First ticket.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on October 04, 2013, 21:42:23
The First Class 'guarantee' of a seat already only applies to HST's and not Turbos. 
As someone who can't decode the different carriage types described above, are HST provisions being reduced or only Turbo's?

As someone who pays the extra for First Class specifically and only to get a seat I can tell you that I would be cancelling my upgrade faster than you can rip out a buffet car.
Only Turbos are having a small section of First Class removed for now but rumours suggest that HSTs will also have one carriage converted to Standard Class as part of the new franchise deal

Can't see that being popular, considering many of the peak services are fairly full in 1st as it is!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 04, 2013, 22:14:15
I take it the 'rumours' regarding reducing first class on HSTs to one carriage is what's been said that I have seen on other rail based forums?

Can't see it happening. First class on Intercity services brings in a great deal of revenue for FGW that one carriage would be nowhere near enough on many peak services where the full fare is being paid. Sure during off peak first class isn't as busy (except on services to the SW) but then again neither is standard class. I expect further conversions of buffet cars to standard seating would be the order of the day either half a carriage or full conversion to a standard coach with mirco buffet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 04, 2013, 22:19:02
Complete removal of the full buffets would be the end of the Pullman and Travelling Chef services,( though given the lack of buffets on IEP that seems on the cards anyway for Bristol/South Wales services). I would have thought the cheapest option would be to turn them around and replace the 1st with standard seating. Is there any technical reason why this would be difficult?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 04, 2013, 22:23:37
I would have thought the cheapest option would be to turn them around and replace the 1st with standard seating. Is there any technical reason why this would be difficult?
None at all and I expect that will be the way they will go as it's by far the easiest and cheapest option so you end up with sets with 6 standard class coaches as now with the rest (with maybe a handful kept back for Pullman diagrams) with 5 1/2 standard class coaches.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on October 04, 2013, 22:27:28
The rumours are from other rail forums, but from posters I'd trust. The plan is apparently to increase all sets to 6 Standard Class carriages by converting one First Class carriage in each set with a full buffet to Standard Class. This is apparently at the insistence of the DfT.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 04, 2013, 23:00:20
I'm a bit puzzled.  Are you suggesting that G becomes F (all standard Class) and F becomes G (Part Buffet, part First Class as now)?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on October 05, 2013, 00:07:39
Yes, that is the rumour I've heard, so sets with full buffets would have 6 Standard and 1.5 First Class carriages.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 05, 2013, 07:18:28
Really would either bring to an end or significantly reduce the number of good value Advance tickets available in First class unless the single First class carriage was re-configured say to a similar layout of a 444 SWT EMU to increase capacity which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing as I find First class on a 444 more than acceptable.

You say 1.5, but being bit pedantic it's more like 1.3 or 1.4 so unless the buffet/kitchen/office areas are significantly reduced, that is quite a reduction in the number of seats available. Expect a backlash with First Group once again getting the blame for yet another one of Daft's decrees.

Micro managing of franchises by Daft is still alive and well.

So if you are travelling first class in future you are better off if a current HD set with 6 standard carriages turning up as these will be the only sets with two first class carriages.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 06, 2013, 12:44:02
See my post in the 'new franchise' thread.

HSTs *are* losing 1st class seats - the full-buffet sets are having one 1st class coach declassified & the 'Express Cafe' sets are losing half a coach (they already have more Standard seats) with a divider mid-coach.

The Cotswold Line Sundays 1st class comment above - most likely that the vast majority are travelling Weekend First - knowing full well that they're very unlikely to pay the upgrade in a turbo....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 06, 2013, 18:26:21
Thanks for the update Chris. Oh well I guess 1.5 is better than 1 First class carriage but I can see problems ahead with overcrowding on many peak services where passengers pay the most. But hey what do Daft care. They don't have to deal with all the complaints. Also gives passengers used to less First class accommodation when IEP comes into service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on October 06, 2013, 19:03:55
I actually this is an overall positive move. An extra standard class carriage on the full buffet sets is going to make a huge difference on the busy Plymouth/Penzance trains, especially in the summer.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 06, 2013, 21:04:24
I actually this is an overall positive move. An extra standard class carriage on the full buffet sets is going to make a huge difference on the busy Plymouth/Penzance trains, especially in the summer.
To a point yes it will, but because there is less First class accomodation, there will be less cheaper First class Advance fares meaning those who travelled First class on cheaper Advance tickets will now travel Standard. If FGW don't get the allocation and pricing right of First class Advance tickets you could end up with empty First class seats and Standard almost as busy as before because travelling First class will become too expensive for many.

Whatever happens I think the days of great value First class Advance fares are probably going or that the allocation will be very small with the Advance ticket pricing for most services rising more quickly and sharply as the few cheaper First class Advance fares that are available sell out as there won't be so many as there are less seats to fill.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2013, 11:25:35
I suspect that 1st Class Advances might disappear all together until works are complete & FGW see how many empty seats in that class they generally have to fill.

At weekends, they may simply rely on Weekend First to fill these. On weekdays, there won't be many, especially in the peaks. The very quiet middle of the day trains may be excepted. As would the last trains I suspect...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 07, 2013, 16:31:45
Regards Weekend First, they may even stop you being able to upgrade Standard Advance tickets to First leaving just off peak, super off peak and Anytime tickets that can be upgraded to Weekend First.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2013, 18:38:32
Maybe there is less interest in preserving First Class by DfT, now that civil servants don't in general travel First Class on official business. This was a long-standing hidden subsidy to the railways.

On journeys where first class advances are not sold, the cheapest first class fare can be well over double that of the equivalent in standard. A Didcot to London off peak day return for example is ^65 in 1st, compared with ^23.50 for standard, so not that much short of three times the price. This is the only 'discounted' 1st ticket available weekdays, with full fare being ^51.50 single.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 07, 2013, 18:54:05
I would rather FGW had looked at refurbishing and bringing back into service more spare Mk3 carriages, making as many HST sets as possible 2+9, retaining at least 2 full 1st Class carriages.

What's stored, and its condition, I don't know fully, but the concept of converting former loco-hauled Mk3 stock and former HST buffets to FGW Standard Class Mk3s has been proved. It maybe the case though that the stock left is in much worse condition than those already converted.

I suspect though that with the franchise extension costs being largely borne by First Group they may baulk at such an idea. Had the DfT underwritten some of the cost then it may have been a goer.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 07, 2013, 18:58:13
I seem to recall that when the subject of 2+9 was previously considered it was discounted as rather a lot of infrastructure (maybe including the depots) would need upgrading, so it was prohibitively expensive. For journeys with relatively short distances between stops 2+9 would also lengthen journey times due to inferior acceleration.   


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Brucey on October 07, 2013, 20:57:34
Maybe there is less interest in preserving First Class by DfT, now that civil servants don't in general travel First Class on official business. This was a long-standing hidden subsidy to the railways.
Now this is an interesting subject.

I recently had the need to travel on Virgin Trains.  The difference between First and Standard was a fiver.  The train was in the evening peak on a weekday, so it would offer the full dinner service plus alcoholic drinks, etc.

But as I'm employed in the public sector, I could only claim for a standard class ticket.  Plus dinner at a restaurant or pub, up to ^25 including a single beverage.  Even the cheapest meal and drink at 'Spoons would cost more than the ^5 upgrade.

As usual, I still went for a cheap meal and spent nowhere near ^25, but it still cost more than had I been able to claim for a first class ticket.

::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 08, 2013, 14:46:14
I've often said that if FGW reduced some of the First Class Off Peak Return Tickets, Introduced First Class Super Off Peak Single and Return Tickets and First Class Off Peak Single Tickets. Then they may very well end up filling more First Class Seats and vacating some Standard Class Seats.

Maybe also a similar policy to GreaterAnglia, where they charge ^10.00 for Off Peak Journeys to Upgrade to First Class on Return Tickets.

Taking the 15:55 Frome - London Paddington Train, Cheapest Walkup Standard Class Single is ^18.15 (Super Off Peak Single/SSS - Valid on selected times & trains via Newbury) and a First Class Walkup Single is ^79.85 (First Anytime Single/FOS - Valid any time & train via Newbury)

Now looking at the Super Off Peak Return (SSR) at ^32.00 and The First Off Peak Return (FSR) at ^95.05

If FGW implemented a First Super Off Peak Return at ^64.00 (Double the SSR price) then FGW would actually make more money out of me, as at that price I would never bother with 1ST Advance Tickets to Paddington again. As that ticket is valid on all of the trains to London and back again I would use,

Now looking at the SVR at ^39.85 (Standard Off Peak Return) compared against the FSR. The difference between the 2 fares is ^55.20 which is more than Double the SVR?!! :o ::) So why not make the FSR ^79.70? If I found myself needing to catch an Off Peak Train I would probably consider that on the day as an option. Or Purchase the hypothetical First Super Off Peak Return and excess the appropriate leg of the journey to the FSR price.

With regards to First Class only having a FOS on most long distance routes. The ^79.85 IMHO is a total non starter. I wouldn't pay it. Instead I would pay ^40.00 odd on the day and go via Warminster/Salisbury. So again, if I didn't have a 1ST Advance. I wouldn't bother using FGW.

Why can FGW seem to charge ^79.85 on ALL trains from Frome - Paddington for First Class when they sell tickets for some trains for as little as ^18.15? Surely the available Standard Class Tickets should match the Available First Class ones?

Ah but then we come back down to the old chestnut of Common Sense and "The Manual"... >:( :-X ::) :o

But as I'm employed in the public sector, I could only claim for a standard class ticket.  Plus dinner at a restaurant or pub, up to ^25 including a single beverage.  Even the cheapest meal and drink at 'Spoons would cost more than the ^5 upgrade.

As usual, I still went for a cheap meal and spent nowhere near ^25, but it still cost more than had I been able to claim for a first class ticket.

::)

That's in interesting point. One of my clients has a similar policy of only allowing claims for Standard Class travel (unless you're at senior management level or the First Class Tickets are cheaper)

However I have an "arrangement" with my expenses, where I don't claim sustenance but claim for difference between First and Standard Class instead. If the difference between First and Standard is more than the sustenance level, then I absorb the additional cost after claim. If it's less then I claim the ticket amount and nothing else.

But that being said, I don't take the mick out of the expenses policy. It says you can claim for taxis, in the past 3 years I've used 5 Taxis and claimed for only 2. Many use Taxis because they can, despite cheaper and in some cases better alternatives being available. As I have a bus pass, I use it :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: lordgoata on October 08, 2013, 16:25:46
The Country end of 201 & 220 have been declassified internally only as of yesterday p.m. All the changes with the 1st class on the 166s is due to be completed by Oct 14th. Although I was under the impression they were due to depart for their C6 Refurb rather soon ?


I assume I was on one of these this morning, as it was declassified - now with a sticker on the door asking for no mobile phones to be used in there. Needless to say someone walked straight in, on the phone! I thought I'd make the most of it, before everyone else realises its now no longer first class  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: The Tall Controller on October 08, 2013, 18:41:34
As said by others, I believe that off-peak (super off-peak) 1st class fares should be available to make it more appealing to 'pay-on-the-dayers'. Would help reduce overcrowding on important long distance trains and will give travelers an option should it be a busy service. In terms of my area it currently is set at:   

Super off-peak standard single from East Cornwall to London = ^56.50 (99.50 return)

Equivalent First class single from East Cornwall to London = ^199.50 (^264.00 return)



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on October 08, 2013, 23:04:38
The Country end of 201 & 220 have been declassified internally only as of yesterday p.m. All the changes with the 1st class on the 166s is due to be completed by Oct 14th. Although I was under the impression they were due to depart for their C6 Refurb rather soon ?


I assume I was on one of these this morning, as it was declassified - now with a sticker on the door asking for no mobile phones to be used in there. Needless to say someone walked straight in, on the phone! I thought I'd make the most of it, before everyone else realises its now no longer first class  ;D
I'm pretty sure they've all been done internally now, but I'm yet to see one without the yellow cantrail strip yet, but some seem to have had the yellow 1 removed. Nobody seems to have realised it's no longer First Class, indeed yesterday two people sat opposite me were getting their excuses ready for when the TM came round for why they were in First Class with a Standard Class ticket.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Boppy on October 11, 2013, 14:00:40
I travelled on one of the declassified ends on a 166 from Reading to Guildford this week.

On boarding the train it was packed and I walked all the way through to the front to find just one person sitting in the declassified section.  Just outside of it were people standing and sitting on the vestibule floor!  Looks like people are generally suspicious of it still being 1st class so avoiding using it.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on October 11, 2013, 14:09:42
Admittedly it is not quite the same as walking the length of an HST, but is there going to any attempt to keep the remaining first class section at the "London" end of the train so people know where to stand on the platform for a 166?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 11, 2013, 14:24:38
Can't see that happening.....but who knows!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on October 13, 2013, 14:23:05
An extra Standard carriage on Plym/Pnz services would be most welcome.

However, the single FC coach will surely have to be reconfigured to increase capacity, perhaps something along the lines of the Voyagers i.e. removal of tables to enable back to back seating?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 13, 2013, 14:33:02
There will only be an extra STD coach where there are 3 1st class coaches now - the sets with only 2 1st Class coaches will have half a coach declassified to STD. So there'll be a minimum of 1.5 1st class coaches - and those with a full buffet will have two.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on October 13, 2013, 14:41:58
Having spoken face to face with a senior member of FGW Management his words were "I think I can promise we will have sufficient sets to run the existing Pullman service".  He also hinted expansion onto the South Wales route is being looked at.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 13, 2013, 15:15:44
I was told that was confidential.....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on October 13, 2013, 15:19:05
Well it was said to me and three others on board a train....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 13, 2013, 16:16:24
Are there any sets with three first class coaches? So let see me if I've got this right. Sets with micro buffet that have two FC carriages will lose half a coach. Sets with a full buffet/kitchen will be turned around with First class's seats replaced with standard seats leaving two full First class carriages?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 13, 2013, 16:40:07
Oh. Sorry. For three, read two plus half in buffet. One full coaxh declassified reduces them all to 1.5 coaches in 1st


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 13, 2013, 16:41:21
Thanks for clarifying that, ChrisB.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 13, 2013, 16:43:27
Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

Wonder which will be the quiet carriage going forward? From experience the "third of a coach" can be very noisy being next to the buffet, so hopefully not that one.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 13, 2013, 16:56:58
Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

Wonder which will be the quiet carriage going forward? From experience the "third of a coach" can be very noisy being next to the buffet, so hopefully not that one.
Not pedantic at all John as we are talking about even less seats in First on sets that are the original restaurant/buffet cars when HSTs first started service. I don't think there are many sets which were half the carriage buffet and half standard seats in service which were then converted by Intercity into First class to give extra capacity in First! How times have changed. I assume these were pulled when micro buffets were installed in Standard leaving only the full kitchen/ buffets in service to provide Pullman and Travelling Chef services when required.

You are right when you say that is not a quiet place to sit when the buffet is open. They could put a door there but I doubt that will happen.

On East Coast HSTs that is the 'quiet coach' which is crazy as you have the crew working in that area who provide the First class complimentary service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on October 13, 2013, 17:23:28
FGW HSTs are not particularly over-endowed with first class seats compared with equivalent services of some other main line operators, such as Virgin West Coast - I would guess on the lower density sets there would be at least 3 times the number of standard seats compared with first, and somewhat more on the higher. The filling up of the standard class progressively seems to have overwhelmed the stop gap measures already taken not that long ago though.

However, I guess a problem would only really arise if the first class becomes a regular standing area for people on full or season tickets, although the people who still expect the sole use of a four-seat table will be disappointed much sooner.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 13, 2013, 18:39:24
If Milton Keynes was treated the same way as FGW has to treat Reading, I strongly suspect Virgin would be doing the same!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 13, 2013, 18:41:30
However, I guess a problem would only really arise if the first class becomes a regular standing area for people on full or season tickets, although the people who still expect the sole use of a four-seat table will be disappointed much sooner.
I've been having a quick check each day this week on the 1630 Paddington to Taunton on departure from Swindon. It's been roughly 50% full (to my surprise I'll admit - thought it would be less). Now on the full buffet sets, seats are being reduced from 113 to 65, ie a 43% reduction. If it were 50% full beforehand then it will be 87% full after the change. I'm guessing as well that this service will have more in 1st east of Swindon than west, so that would indicate that it'll be pretty close to full at some part of the journey.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 13, 2013, 21:05:47
Being slightly pedantic, only 1.35, as there are only 17 seats next to the buffet.

And being further pedantic, some buffet coaches have 24 seats. Easy to spot the difference from the outside - 17 seaters have three large windows, 24 seaters have four.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 13, 2013, 21:11:31
Ah, never noticed that (though I usually head for the quiet coach). What's the reason? Is it the buffets that were acquired from another TOC some years ago are slightly different (was it MML as was?)



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 14, 2013, 06:05:45
Ah, never noticed that (though I usually head for the quiet coach). What's the reason? Is it the buffets that were acquired from another TOC some years ago are slightly different (was it MML as was?)
As built by BR. Some buffets had a larger kitchen and less seating (First class) to act as a Restaurant (3 windows). Other buffets had a much smaller kitchen area and Standard seating (4 windows) Intercity converted these 4 window buffets to First class in the early 90s. Do any of these 4 window buffets still operate on the Western region or were these all converted into Standard coaches by FGW?

More information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Mark_3#Original_formation


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on October 14, 2013, 10:14:06
As built by BR. Some buffets had a larger kitchen and less seating (First class) to act as a Restaurant (3 windows). Other buffets had a much smaller kitchen area and Standard seating (4 windows) Intercity converted these 4 window buffets to First class in the early 90s. Do any of these 4 window buffets still operate on the Western region or were these all converted into Standard coaches by FGW?

A little Googling took me to this photo page: http://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TRB-402xx (http://shed83a.smugmug.com/CoachingStock/Mk3-HST/Mk3-TRB-402xx)

Down the bottom are recent photos of FGW TRBs 40900-40904 which each have 4 windows and appear to have been originally TRSBs - were these the conversions from the early 90s? But it looks like they might have been later purchases?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: devon_metro on October 14, 2013, 13:13:44
Just to confuse things, some TFBs were converted to TRFBs to include a larger kitchen. (from 4 windows to 3 windows). These can be seen by one of the large windows simply being painted over as oppose to bodywork.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on October 14, 2013, 14:27:13
There will only be an extra STD coach where there are 3 1st class coaches now - the sets with only 2 1st Class coaches will have half a coach declassified to STD. So there'll be a minimum of 1.5 1st class coaches - and those with a full buffet will have two.
So, will micro-buffet sets be:
43 - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TSMB - TC - TF - 43? Or will the micro-buffet become a composite coach?

And will the other sets have standard class in the buffet car (like IC225s) and be formed as:
43 - TGS - TS - TS - TS - TS - TSB - TF - TF - 43?

Personally I think having first class seats in the buffet car, but with the buffet end coupled to standard class, is a good idea. I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much, it should be 2.5 or 1.5 (with the other half of the .5 being the kitchen/buffet). So the IC225s should be formed like the GW IC125s currently are (ie. 2x FO, 1x FirstClassBuffet, 6xTSO) and IEP trains should be formed DTS - 5x TSO - FirstClassBuffet - FO - DTF (or 6x TSO at the cost of the FO) rather than the current plans to have 5-car sets and have the only kitchen/buffet on the entire set tucked away in the first class driving vehicle.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 14, 2013, 14:37:23
The coach behind the micro-buffet (currently 1st class) will be split with a divider half STD, half 1st.

Not yet sure which full 1st Class coach will be completely converted in full buffet sets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 14, 2013, 18:02:42
I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much

But there are no FGW sets running around with 3 coaches.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 14, 2013, 18:51:10
There are indeed sets running around with different sized Buffet Cars.

Smaller Kitchen Buffets are not used for Pullman Restaurants and avoided for Travelling Chef's I understand. With TC's a smaller kitchen cannot offer a full menu.

The 3 & 4 Windows is correct in terms of working out which is which. BNM is also right in than some TSB's have been converted into was is now a TRFB. These are identified by the painted window panel which was a window as has been said.

There is also a semi refurbished buffet car running around which has the old style Buffet Design but the seats are the Leather First Class ones and the Buffet has received an internal coat of paint. I have a picture somewhere.

So in answer to the questions. Both types of BR Buffet are still very much on the Western Region / GWML.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 14, 2013, 18:55:39
So the IC225s should be formed like the GW IC125s currently are (ie. 2x FO, 1x FirstClassBuffet, 6xTSO)

No disrespect, But I take it you've never seen First Class on a Busy IC225? There are plenty of seats taken in First Class on most of the East Coast Services I have used. I recall one service where I struggled to find a seat and ended up finding a seat right down next to the DVT (Driving Van Trailer) in the ex smoking compartment.

It was very fortunate the passenger accepted my request of the aisle seat or I would have been Standing or sitting on the floor from YRK - KGX :-X (York - London Kings Cross)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 14, 2013, 19:06:56
I also think 3 full coaches of first class is too much

But there are no FGW sets running around with 3 coaches.

In that instance I think Rhydgaled was referring to East Coast's IC225 (Class 91 and Mk4) sets when mentioning 3 full coaches of 1st Class.



I have been told that the make-up of FGW HST sets after the changes will be:

Sets with a full buffet:
[London end] Class 43 - TF - TRFB - TS - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

Sets with a micro buffet:
[London End] Class 43 - TF - TC - TSMB - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

TF = Trailer First
TC = Trailer Composite (half 1st Class, half Standard)*
TRFB = Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TSMB = Trailer Standard Micro Buffet
TSD = Trailer Standard Disabled
TS = Trailer Standard
TSG = Trailer Standard Guard

* The Trailer Composite will have the 1st Class disabled space.

This information came from a FGW employee who wishes to remain anonymous, and it is subject to change.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 14, 2013, 19:07:35
Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST)
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 14, 2013, 19:17:52
Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST)
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.
Can only think FGW will try and dampen demand for 1st class by raising fares and reducing the amount of 1st Advance fares available. Even doing this I still think there will be trouble for FGW with some of their customers who pay big money to travel in 1st during the peaks having something to say about these upcoming capacity changes when they are implemented.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 14, 2013, 19:26:19
Well any commuter worth their salt will buy their annual ticket on 31st Dec or before, which means we know 'next years' rate already. That means fgw have at least a year before they can dissuade people from spending money with them by providing a crapper service. Each time I stand that is ^40. So if I stand for 100 mornings, or 40% of my journeys, I get my entire season ticket value back in refunds.
Suits me, but has anyone in control done the maths?  :P


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 14, 2013, 19:34:20
Well any commuter worth their salt will buy their annual ticket on 31st Dec or before, which means we know 'next years' rate already. That means fgw have at least a year before they can dissuade people from spending money with them by providing a crapper service. Each time I stand that is ^40. So if I stand for 100 mornings, or 40% of my journeys, I get my entire season ticket value back in refunds.
Suits me, but has anyone in control done the maths?  :P
Probably best ask DaFT that question as this bears all the hallmarks of their doing. They get the TOCs to do their dirty work for them and take the blame which of course the TOCs couldn't care less about as their complaints departments handles all the flack. Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 14, 2013, 20:07:34
Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.
Surely they'll need first reply letters, not standard reply letters.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on October 14, 2013, 20:38:24
Interesting...

Just a thought here. Are FGW going to reinstall the toilet in the power car end of Coach H on Full Buffet Sets? Maybe add a further toilet in Coach F?

Otherwise that will mean just 1 toilet in First Class on Full Buffet Sets... That will not go down well IMHO. Well certainly not with me anyway >:(

So a Full Buffet Set with a Pullman/Travelling Chef has less toilets than a Microwave Cheese Burger offering from a Micro Buffet...?!?! Because that is clearly very sensible...! ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 14, 2013, 21:26:54
Probably have the standard reply letters all ready typed up for when the lack of 1st class seating complaints come rolling in.
Surely they'll need first reply letters, not standard reply letters.

 ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 14, 2013, 22:43:24
Putting the catering aside for a moment, does anyone know what will happen in the case of First class ticket holders who can't get a seat (on an HST)
Are fgw going to amend their ToC's? I ask because on my trains First is pretty much at capacity as it is and if the formation changes there will be people standing everyday.

Reading the thread in Your Rights and Redress on the new Passengers Charter the answer to my questions lie therein.  In short, FGW have watered down rights for first class passengers and we get less comp for having to stand.
Think this is going to cost FGW.

Also all mention of Quiet Carriages has been removed.  Ho hum.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on October 15, 2013, 06:55:44
It would appear that this is a growing issue so expect to see more 1st class seating disappear across the network:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/10375031/Scrap-first-class-to-give-more-train-passengers-a-seat.html

Quote
Train companies could be told to replace first-class compartments with more standard seating to ease overcrowding, after a survey suggested many premium areas remain half-empty even in rush hours.

The study monitored services arriving at main-line London stations and found that on many trains passengers had to stand in standard class while only a handful of seats were occupied in first class.

On average, The Telegraph^s research found only 50 per cent of first-class seats were occupied, suggesting the supply far outstrips demand.

Patrick McLoughlin, the Transport Secretary, said he was ^looking into^ the mix of first class and standard class after the findings were presented to him. He agreed that there might be ways of ^delivering a better passenger experience^ by increasing the ratio of standard-class carriages.

The independent rail watchdog also said the figures showed the right balance was ^not being achieved^. Continues...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 15, 2013, 08:46:31
The issue of 1st Class provision was being discussed this morning on BBC Breakfast from 0820 (watchable on BBC1 iPlayer online until 1019 by rewinding up to 2 hours).

Transport journalist Christian Wolmar and David Sidebottom from Passenger Focus were both advocating a shift in the balance between 1st Class and Standard. Wolmar, unsurprisingly, going for the egalitarian approach of removing 1st Class entirely, with Sidebottom saying that train companies should better manage the balance to reflect customer demand.

Getting the balance right is the crucial question. Operators will no doubt be watching FGW closely to see if the changes to the Turbos and HSTs have/will have struck the right balance.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: adc82140 on October 15, 2013, 08:55:32
They were using Chiltern as an example of a standard class only railway:

I can see the point- That line crosses some of the most affluent areas of the country, yet there was not a public outcry when they did away with First Class.

Chiltern are obviously still making money despite the loss of the First Class fares.


However-

They are largely not an intercity operator (they've fudged the issue a bit with Business Class in the MK3s)

Did anyone really miss having First Class on a turbo or Clubman- it's not the same as an HST


So could the way forward for FGW be the removal of First Class from the Class 165/166s (and the 180s) and a carriage an a half of non bookable Business Class seats on HSTs with an onboard upgrade payable. That would avoid any situations with having to refund passengers where no Business Class seats are available, and also the tricky situation with First Class fares from stations that have the majority of services Turbo formed with a scattering of HSTs (like Maidenhead for example)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on October 15, 2013, 09:35:03
What strikes me as being absent from the discussion on the BBC this morning, or indeed in this thread, is that the justification for having a premium class works if a train isn't full, but can't be sustained if it (i.e. standard class) is full. So a large part of the answer to Charlie Stayt's baffled question "don't the railways know if they would make more or less money [from cutting 1st]" is that it depends on how many trains run full and standing, and that's hard to predict. Not only can it vary for any one service, but of course a train will run many, some full but most not. Basically, if all trains carry a bit of space around, TOCs can reasonably use some of it for additional levels of service. If not, that choice comes at the cost of someone not getting a seat (or not at that time).

More generally, provision of first class (and catering) has to be looked at as part of the capacity issue, and how to react to excess demand. Do you remember the incensed passenger on the C5 series saying FGW ought not to be allowed to runs trains as full as hers? Well, there's a well-proven solution to that - compulsory reservation. This applies on all French TGVs, will apply on HS2, and could now technically be done on pretty well all trains (though in practice it would only be "long distance", i.e. end-door stock). 

Ultimately, the industry (from DfT down) has to be able to say "our strategy for dealing with excess demand/full trains, in the absence of an infrastructure solution (coming later, or never), is..." and tie all these things together. I don't think that's been done, at least not clearly and briefly enough - or have I missed it?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 15, 2013, 10:32:28
I reckon the DfT see the way forward of increasing capacity is to steadily remove 1st Class.

Personally, I have no problem with this - but there are certainly those who if they can't travel 1st Class, will take to their cars.

Statistically probably only in the 100s, so overall car use won't increase that much in % terms.

But yes, FGW will prob reduce/remove 1st Advances to cope, especially in the peaks


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on October 15, 2013, 10:34:59
I know that there will be many reasons why this won't work. But how about compulsory seat reservations in First Class, starting at Carriage H.. Any empty First Class carriages can then be declassified back to Standard to create more space.. This would work if there was a full load of First Class passengers as can happen on some trains but making lots more room for Standard class passengers on trains where there are few passengers in First.

Obviously in return the Standard class passengers have to promise not to stand in the vestibule at either end of any carriage with First Class Passengers in  ::) :P ;D



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on October 15, 2013, 10:36:47
There were complaints locally about Chiltern abandoning first class. It certainly hasn't cured the problem of overcrowding on their peak services, which can only be done ultimately by over-provision of seats in the off-peak if you are going to run fixed formation trains.

Airlines do handle this by having flexible partitioning between their economy and business class seating where they have it, however the problem with this approach on the railways is that the maximum demand time for first class is at the same time as maximum general demand.

Yesterday on the FGW twitter there was already someone asking about how to claim compensation for standing as a FC passenger - alongside one complaining that there were 8 (sic) empty first class carriages on his train at the weekend.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 15, 2013, 10:44:04
Quote
Chiltern are obviously still making money despite the loss of the First Class fares.

Chiltern are losing money. THey have stated this on Twitter.

But I surmise this is deliberate on Arriva/DBs part in minimising their tax in the UK.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on October 15, 2013, 10:51:36
...compulsory reservation. This [...] will apply on HS2,

Where's your evidence for that then?

There is no such rule for domestic services on HS1, it is a Eurostar only requirement for border control purposes.

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on October 15, 2013, 11:45:24
...compulsory reservation. This [...] will apply on HS2,

Where's your evidence for that then?

There is no such rule for domestic services on HS1, it is a Eurostar only requirement for border control purposes.

Paul
I admit that was intentional provocation on my part - I've not seen anything. Perhaps I ought to have said "logically this [...] will apply on HS2", the logic being that HS2 is planned to be more of a separate network (and less of an overlay) than in France or Germany. TGVs were initially very separate, but have evolved into being "normal" long-distance trains. SNCF continue to say that reservation is necessary, though I suspect there must be some exceptions. ICE was, at least from pretty early, more of an overlay (and some have surprisingly many stops). I've not come across compulsory reservation as a general rule; similarly I suspect it may be enforced on some trains.

Domestic trains on HS1 are a bit of a red herring - distinctly commuter trains, using HS1 just "because it is there". The real point, I think, is will there be a standard rule or policy on HS2? As I see it, this is a proper subject for regulation, as a monopoly supplier gains financially from overcrowding, up to a pretty high level.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 15, 2013, 12:13:07
Do they allow standing on TGVs? THat may well be the reason for reserved seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on October 15, 2013, 12:57:00
I know that there will be many reasons why this won't work. But how about compulsory seat reservations in First Class, starting at Carriage H.. Any empty First Class carriages can then be declassified back to Standard to create more space.. This would work if there was a full load of First Class passengers as can happen on some trains but making lots more room for Standard class passengers on trains where there are few passengers in First.

Obviously in return the Standard class passengers have to promise not to stand in the vestibule at either end of any carriage with First Class Passengers in  ::) :P ;D




I cant forsee obligatory reservations in first  class working.

Often the whole purpose of paying the full first class fare is flexibility, and the likelehood of getting a seat.
Full first fares are very expensive, both compared to other modes of transport, and compared to fares payable overseas.
I certainly would not want to pay that much without full flexibility and a near certainty of getting a seat.

The only regular journey on which I pay the full first class fare is Padington to Taunton, I aim to catch the Golden Hind and enjoy the Pullman, but if I miss the train then I like knowing that I can take the 19-03, which also has a Pullman.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on October 15, 2013, 21:29:46
Well yes.. It was an alternative idea to the amount of First Class seats being reduced by a lot?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 15, 2013, 21:55:16
Agree. As a 1st class commuter, I wouldn't want to have to book a seat every day. Just wouldn't be practical.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on October 28, 2013, 20:26:49
Returning from a holiday on Sunday, I decided to travel First Class from Reading to Bristol using the Weekend First option.  No-one having checked my ticket by Didcot, I went to the buffet for my free tea and having offered to pay there and then, the unsmiling attendant accepted my intention to purchase an upgrade and dispensed the drink. (Other staff were but a few feet away in what I take to be the Train Manager's cubby hole.)  Later, I waved my ticket and money at a passing uniformed member of staff, who told me he'd 'send him down, sir.'

As has been pointed out before, an unintended benefit of First Class travel at weekends is that it's very difficult to actually pay for it.  Having made two attempts, I gave up and rode on my Off Peak Standard Single


Edited to correct punctuation


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 28, 2013, 20:42:16
Conversely, this past weekend, having seen the beery hoards of Stags and Hens heading to Bath from Swindon, I plonked myself in Coach F after boarding at Swindon heading to Bristol.

A FGW staffer (off duty TM, passing back) appeared immediately, recognised me, and told me the actual TM would be through presently.

When the actual TM appeared he bumped me up free of charge. I had my tenner ready, but it was politely declined. He said that his colleague had told him that I'm a regular traveller and FGW get enough money from me, to allow for the odd free weekend upgrade.  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on October 28, 2013, 21:18:43
Agree. As a 1st class commuter, I wouldn't want to have to book a seat every day. Just wouldn't be practical.

Unless there were a lot less First Class seats in the future (which sounds like it might happen)?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Busboy W1 on November 01, 2013, 16:02:51
Not sure wether this is relevant to this topic but is there any further news on the Turbo stock going for their Full C6 Refurb as I'm sure this was planned to start in September . Also with the recent changes to FGW operated stock with regards to the 166's 1st Class Accomodation ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on November 01, 2013, 16:09:47
I'm guessing it's been delayed by Wabtec going in to administration and then subsequently being bought out. All the 166s have had First Class declassified now at one end and there does seem to have some progress with the removal of external First Class branding too.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on November 01, 2013, 18:00:29
To speed up the refresh some of the overhaul work is being done at Reading. I don't have the briefing document to hand, but I think the fitment of wi-fi is one of the jobs being done at Reading. The 166 1st class compartments that were declassified were the ones with the lowest numbered carriage of the three that make up a complete unit.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: brooklea on November 01, 2013, 18:21:35
I'm guessing it's been delayed by Wabtec going in to administration and then subsequently being bought out. All the 166s have had First Class declassified now at one end and there does seem to have some progress with the removal of external First Class branding too.

I'm pretty sure it was Railcare that went into administration, not Wabtec.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on November 01, 2013, 18:46:45
Ah yes it was, and it was also Railcare who won the Turbo C6 contract, and it was apparently due to commence in September, but it also covers Chiltern units, so perhaps one of their units has been sent first?

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/02/06/railcare-wins-20m-class-165-and-166-overhaul-contract/


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on November 01, 2013, 19:02:38
I don't think compulsory reservations for trains in this Country would work very well at all. In Spain their long distance trains are all compulsory seat reservations. Once the train is fully booked, the website states "Train Full" and no further bookings are taken. They guarantee a seat this way. But the lifestyle and working culture out there is very, very different to that of Britain.

I think FGW would do good to do what Virgin have done with their Voyagers. Have a section that can be alternated between First and Standard Class as required by demand. Doesn't necessarily need to be 2+1 Seating but be only Tables of 4 like Mk2 Carriages.

Or offer a scheme similar to GreaterAnglia with a First Class Upgrade on Off Peak Trains for ^10.00 Return. In FGW's case maybe knock that up to ^15.00 or ^20.00 to factor in the longer distance and complimentary refreshments.

Introduction of First Off Peak and First Super Off Peak may very well sway people to upgrade too. I personally won't pay the price of the FSR (First Off Peak Return) between Frome and London Paddington based on the fact price paid doesn't reflect the service gained on Off Peak Trains. the 19:Something from Westbury - London Paddington Stopping Service is a prime example of that! A train which is fairly empty in Standard and First alike :-\

If people are going to use the train then they've taken the Standard Class revenue anyway, but if the train was very busy or a Family of 4 wanted to sit together then they may very well be tempted to upgrade onboard to be able to sit together or have peace and quiet.

What I am wondering is what is going to happen to the Quiet Carriage in First Class? If some sets are only going to have 1.5 Carriages or First Class. Putting the Quiet Coach in the Buffet is a bit silly and will no doubt upset people when the Pullman is laid up. I personally would be rather peeved if I boarded a train to find .5 fully taken and the remain coach was a Quiet Carriage.

A few months back I got into a hostile situation where a chap was telling me to stop using my mobile phone in the Quiet Carriage. I ignored him stating it wasn't the quiet carriage. We had 2 coach Gs in the consist. I'll leave you to make your mind up to which coach I was in... ;) >:( ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on November 12, 2013, 22:09:45
On the 7.08 Maidenhead to Paddington this morning First Class was full and standing.. 2 1/2 carriages worth.. For once tickets were checked and even the guy checking them was heard to say "there are a lot of first class passengers on this train"...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 13, 2013, 12:05:22
If that becomes a regular situation, methinks the UP-only 1st class option may be stopped....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 13, 2013, 12:13:18
On the 7.08 Maidenhead to Paddington this morning First Class was full and standing.. 2 1/2 carriages worth.. For once tickets were checked and even the guy checking them was heard to say "there are a lot of first class passengers on this train"...

Yep, I was on the same train and heard the same statement.  My 8th ticket check of the year! Whoo!
To me it felt like the train was full before Maidenhead so perhaps something was wrong upstream(?)
Today was like a ghostship by comparison.

I've already submitted my claim for compensation for standing : )


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on November 13, 2013, 20:53:34
Nooo. I went even earlier than that today as it was so busy yesterday on the 7.08 and wanted to avoid it today but I can confirm that I found a nice empty train (And another ticket check... two in two days which isn't bad considering I can't remember the last morning ticket check before that.. They DO have lots of extra revenue staff though..no really  ::) ::) :P)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 13, 2013, 21:18:40
Nooo. I went even earlier than that today as it was so busy yesterday on the 7.08 and wanted to avoid it today but I can confirm that I found a nice empty train (And another ticket check... two in two days which isn't bad considering I can't remember the last morning ticket check before that.. They DO have lots of extra revenue staff though..no really  ::) ::) :P)

I made the point about lack of checks (and trolley service!) at the September Meet The Manager session.  Apparently I was talking to the head of revenue(?) who was most disappointed to hear about my 5 checks in 9 months and my (could have been) free trip to Par.  He promised action.  I've now been checked 8 times in 11 months, so I guess the frequency is on the up, but I know lots are travelling on Standard tickets and just upgrade when caught.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxman on December 20, 2013, 10:32:15
From the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25454296

"First class users of some First Great Western trains may find they have fewer seats to choose from in the future.

The train operator has confirmed it is in talks with the Department for Transport about reducing first class carriages on some of its services.
"

A positive spin would be "FGW explores Standard Class increase"! Hmmm.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on December 20, 2013, 10:55:25
I cant forsee this being popular with those who have paid a high first class fare and then dont get a seat.
I have regularly seen first virtually full on FGW rush hour services.

What we really need is longer trains, not tinkering with the first/standard ratio, or downgrading inter city trains to suburban commuter type layout.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on December 20, 2013, 11:02:39
Turning round the full buffet carriage and reducing those sets to only 2 first class carriages, and adding about 40 seats of standard class would be perfectly sensible.  Presumably that 'half coach' of first seating is never reservable, in case the other type of train shows up.

But in any case, wasn't this already discussed at length back in October?

Post #74 onwards here:  http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg140738#msg140738

But having read back through a number of 'franchising' type threads, I see this was subtly announced as happening by DfT in the 'new franchise' press release anyway: 
"...increasing the capacity of the existing high speed train fleet, with the addition of new seating in advance of the arrival of the new intercity express trains..."   
So this won't be a discussion about the principle, just the details, and perhaps these posts could be moved to the main 'First Class' thread now?

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 20, 2013, 12:06:45
It was....wonder why the BBC only just reported it?.....

Quote
The operator said it was discussing the idea with the government "to meet continued passenger journey growth", but stressed no decisions had been made.

That's tosh....unless they've gone back on a decision. And why are glass panels starting to appear in certain 1st class coaches as reported by some in the SW?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 20, 2013, 17:27:33
Is it just me or are others getting fed up with this rubbish that first class is always empty with standard full and standing? You normally find when standard is full so is first class. To me it just seems like a bit of jealousy on some peoples part yet if you book in advance you can get great value first class tickets that are often cheaper than standard walk on fares.

I agree there is definitely a need for more capacity on trains with IEP still along way away but why take it out on those who have chosen to spend a bit extra to travel in first?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 20, 2013, 17:34:18
Jealousy


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 20, 2013, 17:38:16
Jealousy
Indeed, but should that really be dictating policy about the capacity ratio of first v standard on trains?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 20, 2013, 17:55:33
I recently got a PLY-PAD which had only 2 First class carriages, mid morning Sunday so not normally very busy but this one was and there were some very unhappy First class passengers left without a seat - First class was full by Exeter.

I think this is a backwards move which reduces customer choice and will upset business travellers at exactly the time when they are being encouraged to get off the roads and onto trains.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on December 20, 2013, 19:46:49
Is it just me or are others getting fed up with this rubbish that first class is always empty with standard full and standing? You normally find when standard is full so is first class. To me it just seems like a bit of jealousy on some peoples part yet if you book in advance you can get great value first class tickets that are often cheaper than standard walk on fares.

I agree there is definitely a need for more capacity on trains with IEP still along way away but why take it out on those who have chosen to spend a bit extra to travel in first?

I would agree with you. The proposal as previously discussed will reduce first seating to around 70 seats in the sets with full buffets. That is going to result in people standing in first on occasions, and maybe regularly on certain peak time workings. I've certainly seen peak evening services leave Swindon westwards that would be standing only - one can only assume that it would be worse between Paddington and Swindon. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on December 20, 2013, 21:36:59
For me, FGW's introduction of high density seating in Standard Class was the point at which I decided that if there wasn't a cheap First Class option (SWT is an option sometimes), I would seriously think about individually tailored door-to-door transport with guaranteed window seat and convenient departure time, comfortable seating with sufficient leg room, but with a travel time penalty and inconvenience if London was the destination. If I didn't fancy driving, then the coach would be a seriously considered option.  For many years I have happily travelled Standard/Second Class, but the claustrophobic feelings have increased as we have been squeezed into smaller and smaller spaces for two or more hours.

There comes a point where train travel in the UK will become just a necessary evil (for some I suspect it already has) and much as one clings on to romantic notions of leaning back looking at the passing countryside, the reality is something else.  To pay First Class fares for what would have been regarded as decent Second Class conditions in days gone by would be quite wrong.  (On the other hand, ^20.00 for First Class Bristol-Falmouth, which I paid a couple of years ago - pre Senior Rail Card - I thought was the reverse.)  I know the economic arguments, but for those with a choice, each deterioration of the quality of the experience adds a reason for not using the train.

I remain keen on public transport, but some won't even bother after one bad experience.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on December 20, 2013, 22:11:13
... each deterioration of the quality of the experience adds a reason for not using the train.

I remain keen on public transport, but some won't even bother after one bad experience.

And yet, year on year the railways are carrying more and more people. In less comfort? Perhaps, but that is subjective. And they keep coming back for more.

FGW HSTs Standard Class, post refurb, have the same seat width, and legroom is no worse, compared to the original layout.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on December 20, 2013, 22:45:16
FGW HSTs Standard Class, post refurb, have the same seat width, and legroom is no worse, compared to the original layout.

I understand that the leg room is the same as before, but (and I admit that this is very subjective) the height of the seat backs (H&S, I know) and the hit-or-miss chance of having a reasonable view out of a window gives me an uncomfortable, confined feeling.  I recognise that for the many who stick their face in front of a screen/book/paper it matters not what passes by outside and you are right, increasing numbers are piling on to trains, so perhaps it's just me and we'll have to learn to live with it or not use the train.  Fortunately, I can choose to travel off peak much of the time, so that mitigates things  a lot.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on December 20, 2013, 22:58:31
As I remember it the seat to window alignment wasn't perfect pre-refurbishment either. It's pretty difficult to have have a perfect alignment when you have the numbers of seats that are in the FGW HSTs. They're still a lot better than Voyagers.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 21, 2013, 00:21:04
... wasn't this already discussed at length back in October?

... perhaps these posts could be moved to the main 'First Class' thread now?

Paul

A fair point, Paul: I've therefore merged both topics into this ongoing discussion of the whole subject here.

CfN  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 21, 2013, 10:16:15
I recently got a PLY-PAD which had only 2 First class carriages, mid morning Sunday so not normally very busy but this one was and there were some very unhappy First class passengers left without a seat - First class was full by Exeter.

Likely, perversely, to be more of a problem at weekends, where many upgrade to Weekend First, thus leaving those that have bought 1st Class struggling to get a 1st seat if joining in Devon. Suspect the demise of Weekend First once this shrinking exercise is complete - just relying on getting the 1st class Advance quota right....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on December 22, 2013, 20:03:44
I enjoy travelling First Class and actively avoid trains without it other than the branch lines. If I can't get a seat in future I will drive, simple as. If I'm travelling to London then I will park at Heathrow and get the Express in.

I can only foresee problems if this policy is introduced; as others have already pointed out, there are many services that easily fill 2.5 FC carriages. Also, what is the average capacity of Standard Class if late evening services are included? I'm guessing it's not 100%.

Whilst I have every sympathy with passengers who have to stand, at the end of the day seat reservations are free and available up to two hours before departure. Seriously, are there that many people who arrive into work in, say, Plymouth are are told they need to be on the very next train to London? I worked for an organisation in the Westcountry that frequently sent employees to London and Bristol, but never on the spur of the moment.

I get to speak to a lot of users of FGW services who aren't in anyway railway buffs, and they all seem to take advantage of advance First Class fares whenever possible. I've also known of people travelling on business who were discretely upgraded to First on Virgin trains that were very busy (in the days before Cross Country ruined the service), so why not FGW?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 22, 2013, 20:11:44
As Chris B says this must herald the end of Weekend First, and yes Advance fares can be v good value in First class, I normally go London - Plymouth every 6 weeks or so and often get change from ^40.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on December 23, 2013, 01:02:01
Is this ludicrous policy actually going to happen?
Yes, get rid of "1st" class in the Thames Turbos (it is only 2nd class standard seating anyway) and do what Chiltern did.

But no-one is going to buy a 1st class season ticket from Bristol Parkway to London if they are constantly going to have to stand. No commuter at Westbury will bother to buy a 1st ticket if the packed SW service arrives with no seats left.

If First Class is too empty, do what East Coast have done. Lower the fares and offer a decent level of service (inc food and drink). It's not rocket science.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 23, 2013, 06:27:50
But no-one is going to buy a 1st class season ticket from Bristol Parkway to London if they are constantly going to have to stand. No commuter at Westbury will bother to buy a 1st ticket if the packed SW service arrives with no seats left.
You are right that it's the South Wales and South West services that overcrowding in First class could occur unless FGW reduce the amount first advance fares made available. You could reduce First class on Bristol to London services but even some of these services are very busy at peak times.

The other problem is current diagrams can have a Bristol to London service then working London to the South West. So the question is will FGW reduce First class across every set or just some sets diagramming them on services where demand for First class isn't so high?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on December 23, 2013, 08:25:00
But no-one is going to buy a 1st class season ticket from Bristol Parkway to London if they are constantly going to have to stand. No commuter at Westbury will bother to buy a 1st ticket if the packed SW service arrives with no seats left.


That is correct and weekend first was introduced on the basis that these people would not be traveling at the weekend.  If overcrowding in first class is becoming a problem at weekends then the obvious thing is to limit or end weekend first upgrades and rely on first advanced to fill empty seats in a more controlled way.

If first class is already full during the week then taking first class seats out would impact on first class travel.

If First Class is too empty, do what East Coast have done. Lower the fares and offer a decent level of service (inc food and drink). It's not rocket science.

But that does not solve the problem FGW are trying to solve. If you take first class seats out and replace them with standard class you get more seats in so more people can sit down.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2013, 08:34:13

If First Class is too empty, do what East Coast have done. Lower the fares and offer a decent level of service (inc food and drink). It's not rocket science.

But that does not solve the problem FGW are trying to solve. If you take first class seats out and replace them with standard class you get more seats in so more people can sit down.


And you get more space where people will accept (all be it begrudgingly) the need to stand - so a capacity 48 goes up to 80 or even to 112 over the busiest of sections


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on December 23, 2013, 08:48:16
So we could have disgruntled FC commuters, who pay the most to travel. Disgruntled First Advance passengers who will no longer be able to buy a ticket in FC. Also tens of thousands of disgruntled Weekend First users who will no longer be able to upgrade (something they might have done for decades now).

But hey, it'll make some people who can't be bothered to reserve a seat in Standard happy.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on December 23, 2013, 08:59:12
So we could have disgruntled FC commuters, who pay the most to travel. Disgruntled First Advance passengers who will no longer be able to buy a ticket in FC. Also tens of thousands of disgruntled Weekend First users who will no longer be able to upgrade (something they might have done for decades now).

But less passengers (first or standard class) who have to stand.

But hey, it'll make some people who can't be bothered to reserve a seat in Standard happy.

We are talking about increasing the total number of seats. Reservation is only a case of ensuring I have a seat.  Surely this board should have some care for all passengers on FGW not just the ones who reserved a seat. Or is it just a case of "I'am all right Jack".

Remember also that not everyone is even able to reserve a seat. Most of my business meetings in London are flexible and I do not know when I will return.  I don't reserve a seat as the number of unclaimed reserved seats in the afternoon always annoys me so much and I assume it annoys other also.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on December 23, 2013, 09:43:38
Weekend First has been available since the 1980s (to the best of my knowledge). To just withdraw it will hardly be good for customer relations.

First are in the transport business to make money. End of. This proposal will see passengers paying a premium of well over ^200 for a journey standing so passengers paying a third of that amount can sit. How is that good business sense?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 23, 2013, 10:25:10
I bet if the ban on civil servants travelling First class was lifted this would not be happening.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on December 23, 2013, 11:54:12
FGW don't get any extra revenue from this.
A few 2nd class peak passengers will get to sit down. Ok, a few more people might be able to fit on the trains at Reading.

But I doubt it'll compensate for the huge numbers downgrading their First Class seasons to standard (or switching to the car).
And at off peak times, 1st will still be even emptier with fewer upgrades and advances!

What FGW have got to remember is that they have made their 2nd class carriages claustrophobic and uncomfortable, so many may not switch. They said that the rock hard seats would give and get more comfortable - not true, they are still bum numbing after 45 minutes. And they also claimed that the high seat backs were for Elf and safety - again, not true, proven by the myriad other refurbs of HSTs in recent years which mysterially also passed H&S. Yes, legroom is decent, I'll admit.

As for diagramming the 2.5 1st carriages on SW services - this WON'T work. FGW struggle to get enough HSTs out of Old Oak Common (so Worcesters are always Turboed) and it won't be long before the 1803 Pullman is formed by a 1.5 1st class micro buffet, which will leaver commuters .

I haven't seen it anywhere that this is confirmed yet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BandHcommuter on December 23, 2013, 12:26:12
First are in the transport business to make money. End of.

As a company with shareholders this is true, but it's not quite that simple. The way the industry is structured means that private companies are constrained from operating their franchises in a wholly commercial manner. Firstgroup makes money from its rail franchises through a profit margin earned on the delivery of a contracted level of service, which includes the provision of a timetable specification and any other outputs (e.g. peak seating capacity) which are included in the agreement. Some of these outputs are non-commercial, but included in the franchise for a range of social, economic and political reasons. It may be that DfT has made a policy choice that the optimisation of capacity utilisation in the peak (where there is currently a severe and worsening overcrowding problem) is more important than the availability of premium accommodation or even the overall profitability of the service. I would imagine that existing loadings, passenger demand forecasts and future pricing scenarios have been carefully analysed in developing any proposals to rebalance the mix of first class and standard accommodation.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on December 23, 2013, 13:13:17
Just a thought, given the negative reporting of overcrowding during peaks and "hard pressed commuters", perhaps FGW aren't having much say in this at all and the DfT are the ones pushing this?  Maybe FGW have to agree to this whether they like it or not as part of the GW extension...?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on December 23, 2013, 13:15:26
But we already know that at peak times, FC is full or very nearly so so. So all DafT will achieve is to rob Peter to pay Paul. Can you imagine the announcement on the 18.02 Paddington - Penzance: "First Class passengers without a seat may move down to Standard coaches A to E".

Great service for a ^380 open peak return ticket from Plymouth.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on December 23, 2013, 13:56:22
It may be that FGW aren't driving it. But as railways don't make a profit, it seems madness to reduce the income of the railway by turning away 1st passengers.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on December 23, 2013, 14:21:26
I bet if the ban on civil servants travelling First class was lifted this would not be happening.

Indeed, and also MPs


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on December 23, 2013, 14:24:46
I appreciate DafT are driving this, but it will reflect so badly on FGW. The vast majority of Standard class passengers will be unaware they have an extra coach, but FC passengers will raise merry hell on the train and in the media if they are forced to stand. The media will inevitably focus on the eye-watering peak FC fares, and FGW will once again be the villains.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on December 23, 2013, 14:41:27
I suggest all those who are concerned write to FGW (preferably stating how often you use first class). If this isn't a done deal then at least FGW will have some evidence which could be used in discussions with DfT.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 23, 2013, 14:49:10
I suggest all those who are concerned write to FGW (preferably stating how often you use first class). If this isn't a done deal then at least FGW will have some evidence which could be used in discussions with DfT.
Surely FGW have ticket sales data to show how much First class is used as well as revenue from sales of Weekend First tickets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on December 23, 2013, 15:35:51
The vast majority of Standard class passengers will be unaware they have an extra coach.....

I would notice!

.... but FC passengers will raise merry hell on the train and in the media if they are forced to stand.

Agreed if it happens

A few 2nd class peak passengers will get to sit down. Ok, a few more people might be able to fit on the trains at Reading.

More than a few.  That would be the upside

But I doubt it'll compensate for the huge numbers downgrading their First Class seasons to standard (or switching to the car).

If all the displaced 1st class passengers moved to standard there would still be additional seats in standard class.

And at off peak times, 1st will still be even emptier with fewer upgrades and advances!

I don't see the logic in this.  Advances will be made available to match demand.  If indeed they do remove weekend upgrades then there will be correspondingly more advances.  FGW make money by filling seats not running them empty.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on December 23, 2013, 16:55:03
I suggest all those who are concerned write to FGW (preferably stating how often you use first class). If this isn't a done deal then at least FGW will have some evidence which could be used in discussions with DfT.
Surely FGW have ticket sales data to show how much First class is used as well as revenue from sales of Weekend First tickets.

I'm sure they do, but it wouldn't harm to tell DfT that there has been some adverse customer feedback to the proposed changes. Else the view will be  - we announced it, nobody complained, so we did it.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on December 23, 2013, 19:34:12
A few 2nd class peak passengers will get to sit down. Ok, a few more people might be able to fit on the trains at Reading.

More than a few.  That would be the upside

But I doubt it'll compensate for the huge numbers downgrading their First Class seasons to standard (or switching to the car).

If all the displaced 1st class passengers moved to standard there would still be additional seats in standard class.

I was talking about revenue. Any extra 2nd class passengers attracted will not offset the loss of revenue from 1st class commuters downgrading.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 27, 2013, 12:34:47
I think the DfT are more concerned by overall capacity frankly - and there is a good argument for that!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on December 28, 2013, 00:33:55
True - and this is fair enough on sub 1 hr commuter trains (e.g. the Thames Turbos*). No-one will drive to London because there is no 1st class compartment from Taplow.

But on long distance services, I think it is a bad idea because we need to get people out of cars and planes - 1st class can help with this, especially off peak and at weekends.

*Ignoring when Thames Turbos are put on inappropriate 3 hr journeys from the Cotswolds


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on January 02, 2014, 22:46:38
Quote
Is this the end of First Class rail? Ministers pay train firms to do away with premium seats

  • First class carriages will become a rarity as a result of the move
  • It is designed to placate passengers angry at being in packed trains
  • Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin is behind the plan
  • He is understood to have authorised millions of pounds for it
  • Move emerges on day passengers face the annual rise in fares

By JAMES CHAPMAN
PUBLISHED: 22:33, 1 January 2014 | UPDATED: 09:15, 2 January 2014

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2532349/Is-end-class-rail-Ministers-pay-train-firms-away-premium-seats.html#ixzz2pHap1MUA
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

I post this here for reasons of completeness - having seen the headline on a copy of the paper.

It's actually quite a long piece - though consists of the usual heap of half-digested snippets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on January 02, 2014, 23:22:51
 >:(


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 03, 2014, 00:38:30
Calm down, Btline - it's from the Daily Mail ...  ;) :D ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on January 15, 2014, 18:10:47
Was looking forward to my Wednesday wine this evening but there was none on the trolley. On enquiry the customer host told me its only available as far as Reading. Given I get on at Swindon and its been available until now is this a new restriction?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on January 15, 2014, 18:23:57
Nothing in the public domain as far as I can see, John R. Best to ask via social media, I'd suggest.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on January 15, 2014, 19:04:55
I caught the 17:30 from Paddington (Boarded at Bath Spa 18:59) and there were plenty of wine bottles in First Class. As I write this between BTH and Bristol Temple Meads there is a passenger with a wine glass still full on the table.

Maybe the Customer Host has misunderstood the restriction?

I second BNMs suggestion. Send them a tweet or write on their Facebook Page :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on January 15, 2014, 19:10:12
Thanks for the advice both, though as I don't have a Facebook or twitter account those avenues aren't open to me.  I was on the 1630 ex Paddington, so maybe I should have stayed at work for another hour!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on January 15, 2014, 19:23:24
I've emailed Customer Services, though I expect the reply won't be as quick as it would be on Facebook or twitter. My fault for being a luddite!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 03, 2014, 20:45:07
Seen a few interesting things with First Class on HST sets recently. Possibly related to the removal of some First Class Seating on HST sets?

Anyway this is a Coach H which has been Rebadged as a Coach G but the First Class Sign was Gaffer Taped out. The next Coach was a Micro Buffet and Standard Class Seating. If you look at the Coach H next to it on the right, you can see that Coach H has the First Class Sign Visible

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6lVKhrglmOs/UurXSgNQRwI/AAAAAAAACbw/3qaaBj7LBNU/w983-h553-no/20140130_225042.jpg)

Inside this Coach G we had no head rest covers. Coach H DID have them.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-I-YNFO2zUIQ/Uurioh7ewQI/AAAAAAAACcQ/cveUKu7RJ5U/w983-h553-no/20140130_224201.jpg)

On speaking with the TM they informed me that the Coach G was still classified as a First Class Vehicle despite these anomalies. I was inclined to disagree considering the external tape and lack of headrests certainly implied it's been declassified. Although the internal sliding door First Class Stickers were still attached.

Not that at 22:35 it mattered too much ::) :-X :D



Now we have this set which is missing a Coach H:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-C2g7XoYLyKM/UulF7W0M9fI/AAAAAAAACWs/sDrUbARfJ8Y/w983-h553-no/20140129_181504.jpg)

Could this be a Coach H that is being converted to Standard or Composite Seating? Or is this still nothing more than Mess Room Rumors for HST Sets?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on February 11, 2014, 19:49:56
I think that this is a really bad idea! (even as a person who rarely uses FGW 1st class)

Has it been confirmed?

When IEP comes in, perhaps they will be 9 or 10 car, with two 1st class coaches and extra 2nd class seating.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 12, 2014, 10:40:57
Yes, it has definitely been confirmed.

They are all being reduced to 1.5 coaches of 1st class.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on February 12, 2014, 10:48:46
I think that this is a really bad idea! (even as a person who rarely uses FGW 1st class)

Has it been confirmed?

When IEP comes in, perhaps they will be 9 or 10 car, with two 1st class coaches and extra 2nd class seating.

From what I've found online, IEP also 1.5 for 1st, although the seating more akin to a Voyager, and so greater capacity.

Agree it is a really bad idea. The first time I have to stand (probably coming back from London) will be the last time for me. I'm not prepared to pay a premium for substandard service, and so will drive to Heathrow if needs be.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 12, 2014, 11:15:22
I don't think there will be a capacity problem - just higher fares as the 1st Advances will be restricted and/or cancelled all together on high peak HSTs


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 12, 2014, 12:52:05
I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST's as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour.  (For specifics I am talking about the 7.08 Maidenhead to Padd that starts at Worcester)

Two things gripe me about this:

1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

2) In my humble opinion, and again referring to journeys to and from Maidenhead, the capacity problems have been created or at least worsened by FGW's own making.  Before I get my head bitten off let me explain.

In the morning the 7.08 and 7.32 are very busy (standing only), but this wasn't the case when the 7.16 was an HST.  As soon as that HST was converted to a 5 car turbo passengers relocated to the other services and placed greater pressure on those.

In the evening the 18.18 and 19.05 are stupidly busy, with 75%+ of travellers disembarking at Maidenhead.  Why?  Because there is a 45min gap at peak without a direct service.  Why? Because back in 2010 the 18.33(?) was converted from an HST to a stopping turbo.

If the'wrong trains' are provided at the 'wrong time' then passengers will move to other services and then they become overcrowded.  Listen to what your passengers have been telling you for the past 4 years and you might find the services are less-overcrowded and you don't need to spend ^millions stripping out your principal revenue generating services.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BandHcommuter on February 12, 2014, 13:22:20
I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST's as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

I don't think that's true of all commuter HSTs. The 0603 and 0616 trains from Westbury to Paddington (which are effectively Kennet Valley commuter services) generally leave Reading with 20-30 people standing in each standard class carriage, but with first class little more than half full (and yes I am sad enough to have stood on the platform at Reading and counted). We can probably all come up with our own anecdotes about packed or empty first class coaches, and any solution to mitigate current peak overcrowding in standard class is likely to result in winners and losers.

I guess that any initiative to replace first class seats with standard will increase the overall number of seats available, so fewer people will be standing in the peaks. The down side is the reduction in first class availability, which may cause some existing first class passengers problems, and even to downgrade or cease to travel - I would imagine that FGW and DfT took account of this in developing the options and business case for the change.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 12, 2014, 13:30:44
Neither of those trains stop at Maidenhead so my point stands that it should be possible to alleviate capacity problems by supplying the right trains at the right times to busy stations (like Maidenhead) where overcrowding exists.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 12, 2014, 13:43:33
I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST's as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

I would imagine that FGW and DfT took account of this in developing the options and business case for the change.

Indeed they would have done and, just as Maidenhead pax have migrated to other services, so might any 1st class customers wanting to guarantee a seat?

I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST's as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

You don't know though just how many have 1st Advance tickets. Cut those & there may well be seats for others paying full fare? Personally, I have little sympathy for those on Advance tickets - that ticket has always been a 'offer' which can be withdrawn or varied at any time.

Quote
Two things gripe me about this:

1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

Exactly - you have a choice to upgrade.

Quote
In the evening the 18.18 and 19.05 are stupidly busy, with 75%+ of travellers disembarking at Maidenhead.  Why?  Because there is a 45min gap at peak without a direct service.  Why? Because back in 2010 the 18.33(?) was converted from an HST to a stopping turbo.

Can't disagree there - Maidenhead ought to have at least a 30min service for the number of pax wanting to travel, if not a 20min service. I can follow up with the timetable guys but I suspect its a lack of stock problem at that time - and if they were to supply you with a train, somewhere else just as needy loses out.

Quote
If the 'wrong trains' are provided

That's tough, though if there is a train & it's just the wrong 'type'. Go be squashed if there are seats elsewhere at the same-ish time. I think there are far worse problems that the 'wrong type'


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: James on February 12, 2014, 13:51:34
Neither of those trains stop at Maidenhead so my point stands that it should be possible to alleviate capacity problems by supplying the right trains at the right times to busy stations (like Maidenhead) where overcrowding exists.



Nick i agree that more trains need to be supplied, however First Great Western keeps insisting that they can not run more trains since there is a rolling stock issue.
Now how many times do people need to hear. These problems because of the lack of rolling stock will continue until brand new trains 'if you can call them that' will arrive sometime in history but hasn't been agreed what year it will arrive as the railway cant make their minds up  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 12, 2014, 13:58:48
There's also the question of pathing. There may not be a path to put in a train at that time. It may mean juggling others, in which case, why should Maidenhead have priority over any other station (assuming their level of service is similar at present)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on February 12, 2014, 14:47:31
Pathing is likely to be a major constraint to stopping more trains at Maidenhead in the peak. To provide fast services you either have to stop a service on the main line, which means the train behind it will potentially have to run later, and the knock on effect is that you might end up losing a path on the main lines. Otherwise you call services on the relief lines at Maidenhead, with them crossing over to the main lines into London, but that requires a conflicting move either with the down relief towards London or the up main from London. That can also be hard to path, especially in the peak.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: adc82140 on February 12, 2014, 18:18:55
Of course they could also discontinue the "Eastbound Only" first class season tickets. I used to have one of those when I commuted in to London- I certainly wouldn't have paid the full whack first fares.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 12, 2014, 20:22:16
1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

Completely agree. A few of my friends have asked me in the past 'how to I get a First Class ticket?' Pretty simply I just ask for one.

I don't like being packed into a small place like a sardine. I detest it that much in fact I'd rather lock myself in a toilet just for some personal space. And I don't particularly like those either! :-X >:(

That being said I have often wondered if FGW were to reduce First Class fares or create a more incentive offer say ^20 Upgrade like Chiltern Business Zone for off peak trains how the passenger flows would change. I know several people for example who would willingly part with an extra ^10 - ^30 for the privilege of being able to work at a Table, have leg room, spacious surrounding etc

Personally, I have little sympathy for those on Advance tickets - that ticket has always been a 'offer' which can be withdrawn or varied at any time.

I disagree with the opinion on this. The price paid for the ticket is irrelevant. I've had this 'argument' before where someone said they had paid more for their ticket so had more right to the seat I was sat in.

In actuality we both had the same ticket (First Anytime Day Single) but I had a railcard discount applied to it. So for the sake of argument we had actually bought the same product, I had just used a discount card...

Having looked at the prices of First Advance Tickets for peak trains, I can find several First Advance Tickets for peak trains where the price is very close to that of the First Anytime Single product. Maybe ^5 - ^15 difference at most.

So I wonder if those passengers on First Advance Tickets do so because they want to save that extra tenner? How many of those will buy the FOS/FDS and pay more through a stealthy price increase? Or how many will say "You take an offer away from me, you lose my custom, bye?"

That being said. For a Super Off-Peak Train priced at ^19.15 Walkup Standard Class on the 19:13 Westbury - London Paddington vs ^82.50 First Class an increase of 330% I think that answers why some book a First Advance.

Personally if I wanted to travel to London on the day, I'd spend ^42.25 and travel First Class via Salisbury on South West Trains! ^42.25 is reasonable for an on the day Super Off Peak Train. ^82.50 which is an ANYTIME ticket, so would be the same price if you travelled on the 07:04 is not a reasonable ask in my opinion for the 19:13

Flipping things around, ^82.50 is a reasonable price for the 07:04 when you look at the Standard Anytime Single Ticket being ^51.80 That is fairly reasonable as it's a 59.26% Increase.

Using that same Percentage Increase I should be charged a First Class Super Off Peak Single on the 19:13 ^30.50! Now how many people would pay ^30.50 to travel First Class on that 19:13 on the day? I would certainly be one of them ;D ladyfriend trout would, alot of my friends would, colleagues would etc...!

Disclaimer: Prices quoted include railcard discount and are valid via Newbury or Warminster-Salisbury only.

Edit: Corrected Bold Font Sections. tt. :-[


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 13, 2014, 10:54:58
Oh, I fully support introduction of off-peak & super off-peak 1st class tickets....where capacity allows.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on February 19, 2014, 00:30:50
An unexpected side effect of the bad weather and suspension of the sleeper services is a change to the opening hours of the First Class lounge at Paddington.

For the immediate future it closes earlier in the evening, but for the first time in a while it is now open on Saturdays.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 19, 2014, 07:29:54
A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on February 19, 2014, 16:28:10
A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.
I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 19, 2014, 17:19:26
A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.
I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on February 19, 2014, 18:17:04
A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.
I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..

That could be the guard for the Marlow service, so unlikely to stay on?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 19, 2014, 18:52:25
A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.
I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..

That could be the guard for the Marlow service, so unlikely to stay on?

Indeed it could be but it doesn't make it right.. Ticket checks between Maidenhead and Paddington are so rare it's an event when one happens. On fellow passenger told me the other day that there is another passenger who has boasted that he has now travelled into London for a whole year in first class on a Standard class ticket.. Because he can... How many times do we need to tell FGW before they actually do something? (hypothetical question btw - same as "how long is a bit of string")


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on February 21, 2014, 00:03:34
It's never going to change. The majority of Maidenhead-London services are Driver Only Operated as result of a decision taken by NSE when the Turbos were introduced to dispense with the need for guards and saving money. With the exception of the DOO scheme in the Glasgow area, all DOO operations rely on occasional ticket checks on trains by RPIs with more regular checks at barriers at stations. I can't foresee regular ticket inspections ever being carried out on DOO services as it just undermines the whole cost saving from getting rid of Guards in the first place. Checks on HSTs should be more regular, but in my experience it is relatively rare to have a ticket check between the last two stations on a service, especially where it is a relatively short distance like Maidenhead-London.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 21, 2014, 07:32:53
Another check on the 7.08 HST maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

Q: if we were on the roads the powers-that-be would never miss an opportunity to charge people for such an offence. Why do railways not charge/fine as opposed to just continually moving people along. Surely that is an inefficiency?




Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 21, 2014, 08:18:24
I would agree that those caught in first without a valid ticket should be charged or "fined".
Could not a penalty fare be imposed, which is a fine in all but name, or at least be charged the full first fare to the next stop if they move, and to their destination if they do not move.

If imposing any penalty is considered unduly harsh for a first offence, then at least take names and addresses, and prosecute for any repeat.

In the longer term though I fear that first class will be abolished on most routes.
Enforcement is patchy as others report, and unless enforcement results in penalty fares or other income, then the enforcement costs money.


As has been previously disscussed, first class provision is being reduced on existing stock, and is minimal on the new proposed trains.

Now that MPs cant use first at the public expense, many MPs are calling for reductions in first class provision, or for it to be "opened up" at times of disruption or crowding.

IMHO, MPs should be allowed first, not because they deserve it, but to stop them wingeing about reducing/removing/declassifying first.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 21, 2014, 21:27:26
I can't foresee regular ticket inspections ever being carried out on DOO services as it just undermines the whole cost saving from getting rid of Guards in the first place.
Which is why I'm confused about the introduction of call-for-aid buttons under the TSI-PRM regulations. When I e-mailed FirstGW about these call-for-aid buttons (in relation to IEPs working in multiple in particular), I got a very vauge responce along the lines of: we may or may not decide to have a train manager in each unit. In theory, for the call-for-aid buttons to be useful their always needs to be a member of staff available to respond.

I think:
TSI = Technical Specification for Interoprability
PRM = Persons of Reduced Mobility


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on February 22, 2014, 09:11:29
One of the problems with cracking down on abuse of first class is that as soon as you start going through any sort of penalty process on board, everyone else who shouldn't be there will leave. So you might catch one or two but the others get away.

However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST's, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)

Post a couple of staff  (and maybe a couple of BTP in case things get ugly) at the point where first becomes standard. Then a couple of minutes after the train has left Maidenhead (or wherever it's last stop is towards London), start checking tickets. Withdraw the season ticket from anyone not entitled to sit in first, and tell them to go to a specified place at Paddington when the train arrives. As the other passengers try to get up and move to standard they are caught by the staff positioned at the interface with standard.

Then at Paddington they are penalty fared, and told that if they are caught again they will be prosecuted. I'd also suggest that if 28 people have to be processed then that will take some time and they will also be late for work. An interesting one to explain why. In the reverse direction, tell people to get off at the first stop where staff would be waiting, then they would have the added inconvenience of having to wait for a later service.

Anyone who only had a day ticket would have to be dealt with on the spot, as the way the approach works I by removing someone's season ticket, ie something of value from them.

There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 22, 2014, 10:11:15
One of the problems with cracking down on abuse of first class is that as soon as you start going through any sort of penalty process on board, everyone else who shouldn't be there will leave. So you might catch one or two but the others get away.

However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST's, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)

Post a couple of staff  (and maybe a couple of BTP in case things get ugly) at the point where first becomes standard. Then a couple of minutes after the train has left Maidenhead (or wherever it's last stop is towards London), start checking tickets. Withdraw the season ticket from anyone not entitled to sit in first, and tell them to go to a specified place at Paddington when the train arrives. As the other passengers try to get up and move to standard they are caught by the staff positioned at the interface with standard.

Then at Paddington they are penalty fared, and told that if they are caught again they will be prosecuted. I'd also suggest that if 28 people have to be processed then that will take some time and they will also be late for work. An interesting one to explain why. In the reverse direction, tell people to get off at the first stop where staff would be waiting, then they would have the added inconvenience of having to wait for a later service.

Anyone who only had a day ticket would have to be dealt with on the spot, as the way the approach works I by removing someone's season ticket, ie something of value from them.

There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.



Agree entirely. Sounds labour intensive but would presumably not need to be done that often, and would at least partialy pay for itself by the penalties thus raised.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on February 22, 2014, 10:51:57
Another check on the 7.08 HST maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

Q: if we were on the roads the powers-that-be would never miss an opportunity to charge people for such an offence. Why do railways not charge/fine as opposed to just continually moving people along. Surely that is an inefficiency?




I agree with these evictions, however, unfortunately it only takes a few of them to send an irate email to DaFT and bingo - More FC declassified


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 22, 2014, 11:13:04
However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST's, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)
.
.
There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.

Not sure.

The reason it was legally removed in your final paragraph is that seasons aren't legally transferable, and as the holder had lent it to his son, he broke that rule. He was extremely lucky to get it back, and I'm sure having to pay again taught him a valuable lesson!

Sitting incorrectly in 1st class isn't the same. Whether legally the ticket can be withdrawn (it is rail property, not the owners property) is a question I hope those with better knowledge of railway T&Cs than I can answer...but I do like the idea, especially as it can all be 0planned well in advance. Agreed labour intensive, but do it a couple of times & social media should do the rest. THe off-train 'bookings' need to obviously be done platform side of barriers....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on February 22, 2014, 11:16:59


Agree entirely. Sounds labour intensive but would presumably not need to be done that often, and would at least partialy pay for itself by the penalties thus raised.

Yes, fairly labour intensive, but I think you can safely assume that once someone has paid a penalty fare (oh, and of course the upgrade fare for their journey), and knows their details are taken and next time it's a prosecution, then they are unlikely to try it again. So if you can catch around 30 offenders in one hit, then it won't take too many exercises to sort the problem.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on February 22, 2014, 11:24:34
THe off-train 'bookings' need to obviously be done platform side of barriers....
Not necessarily - after all they don't get their ticket back until they have been seen to, so if they just walk off then FGW have both their ticket and their details.  I would suggest that when the ticket is removed the passenger is given a very brief receipt, marked with the ticket number, an explanation of why it has been taken, and this would enable barrier staff to pass them through to wherever they are required to report to. (They would have course been briefed in advance.) It would also say that if they just walk away then the first action would be more severe than a penalty fare.
 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on February 22, 2014, 11:28:04
Conditions of Carriage

20. Withdrawal of tickets
If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt.


So I think that's fairly clear cut.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Electric train on February 22, 2014, 15:52:20
Another check on the 7.08 HST maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

The problem with the First Class on HSS is the inconsistency of the ticket checks, some TM's make all standard ticket holders who are standing in the First Class vestibules move others don't.  When it come to upgrading tickets again some allow tickets to be upgraded and some don't I have seen the same passenger on the same train on a number of occasions most time they can upgrade then occasionally its declined.

The 165/6's might as well de classify the whole fleet if FGW cannot consistently police the First Class then do away with it remove it from the timetable and don't sell First Class tickets, for places like Maidenhead with a very limited HSS service use upgrade system


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on February 22, 2014, 16:55:35
Remember people.
I am thinking of Byelaw 19 which is a 'Level 3' standard scale offence. This can also be applied to the vestibule areas of first class.
Quote
19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
 
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

NRCoC 20 allows any authorised officer or agent of the railway to withdraw any ticket if any rules have been broken. Failure to hand over then becomes a Byelaw 18 (2) offence.

NRCoC 39 allows Penalty Fares to be charged. However most TMs are NOT authorised collectors for the purposes of the Penalty Fare Regulations and as such cannot charge PFs. Same as most TEs are also not authorised collectors.

In regards to issuing a PF at PAD for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID then they cannot be PF'd.

You could demand the full open fare, but they would only be paying what they would have paid if stopped/caught on board.

However if you do stop a few of the regulars who do this, threaten to withdraw their season ticket, warn them etc, then they will be straight onto the iPad writing threatograms to the MD and "I was picked on guv" Emails to their local MPs, Boris, etc. FGW always seem to take the customer service view and as such is very unlikely to allow season tickets to be withdrawn despite the clear attempt at fare evasion.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 22, 2014, 18:08:33
In regards to issuing a PF at PAD for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on February 22, 2014, 19:03:39
There is an argument you can use at some stations. However this argument would be irreverent on HSTs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on February 22, 2014, 19:25:58
Surely not if you've done a full ticket check west of Didcot. Then you will know that any offenders boarded the train at Didcot or further east.

As for the letters to MPs, etc, I would suggest FGW ought to be much more upfront and ask politicians etc whether they condone fare evasion or not. Surely it's hard to say you were picked on when you were one of 28 treated identically? I'd have thought passengers would have thought " fare cop", pay the penalty, and make sure they don't do it again for risk of prosecution.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 23, 2014, 07:28:19
Surely not if you've done a full ticket check west of Didcot. Then you will know that any offenders boarded the train at Didcot or further east.

As for the letters to MPs, etc, I would suggest FGW ought to be much more upfront and ask politicians etc whether they condone fare evasion or not. Surely it's hard to say you were picked on when you were one of 28 treated identically? I'd have thought passengers would have thought " fare cop", pay the penalty, and make sure they don't do it again for risk of prosecution.

I fear that most MPs and there voters would take the view that of course they dont support fare evasion IN GENERAL, but that they feel that a little discrection should have been shown in this particular case.
Anyone writing to an MP and/or to the press is most unlikely to say "I prefer first class but dont expect to pay"!
It is much more likely that they will have at least a half decent excuse, probably along the lines of

I was pregnant
I was ill
I have some obscure allergy, issue or phobia that means I CANT go in standard
I had a special needs child or adult with me
I dont normally, but the train was exceptionaly crowded
I had only been there a moment to rest my feet
I had an important meeting with someone in first.

And so on.

Despite the sob stories, I still think that FGW should be more vigourous in enforcement.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 24, 2014, 13:40:02
In regards to issuing a PF at PAD for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?

But does that take into account a split ticket? for example: Weston-Super-Mare - DID with an SOS (Standard Anytime Single) and a Season from DID - SRA (Stratford London) Which of course with a combination of a season doesn't require the train to stop at DID.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 24, 2014, 14:01:45
I'm sure you'd be the first to produce such a split ticket!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 24, 2014, 14:43:41
I'm sure you'd be the first to produce such a split ticket!

TBH I'm not so sure, grahame posted a while back about using a Farnborough Split Ticket with a Season as well around the Iver area I think it is?

That being said I have often been told by Guards "Oh that's the first one of those I've ever sold and unless I see you again probably the last!"


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 24, 2014, 14:45:27
I use them very regularly....season plus split(s)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on February 24, 2014, 14:59:30
In regards to issuing a PF at PAD for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?

First Great Western's web site says ...

Quote
If you join a First Great Western train at any of the designated penalty fares stations and travel to your final destination without a ticket, or a permit to travel, you will have to pay a penalty fare.

Now - although the penalty fare area from Paddington runs out at Didcot, the next one starts at Swindon and it's all about where you join the train.  As I read it, you can be PF'd on the way into Paddington even if coming from West of Didcot unless you joined the train at Kemble, Stroud, Stonehouse, Weston Milton or have come from South Wales  (or there was no way for you to buy a ticket before boarding, such as a broken TVM and no booking office).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on February 24, 2014, 23:02:47
If you join the train in one PF zone lets say Zone B (West of Swindon) and then go to Paddington which is Zone A then you cannot, in accordance with the Penalty Fare scheme be charged a Penalty Fare. You will just be stung for a SOS with no possibility of parole discounts. However if you have a split ticket, which splits at say Didcot, you will be wholly within Zone A and be able to be charged the PF.

However having tried to search for copies of the FGW PF maps I came across this FoI. It appears that FGW have not got approval, or the DfT were not consulted, over the displayed text for authorised collectors badges. After having deciphered the text I would guess that because the FGW/SWT/SN/FCC policies do not mention the other TOCs in their own policies then the authorised collector would not be allowed to collect on their behalf.

Quote
Prior to receiving your request, the Department was not aware of the text shown in your photograph appearing on a badges worn by an FGW Authorised Penalty Fare Collector. The Department proposes to establish the facts about your allegation at the earliest possible opportunity. If it is found necessary to do so, appropriate action will be taken to ensure that FGW complies with its penalty fares scheme.

This was the last application to vary the PF scheme to the DfT
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/182962/response/455110/attach/3/Annex%201.pdf

All links posted are publicly accessible documents.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 25, 2014, 08:26:46
Going off topic - Mods, worth moving some of these posts to that Penalty Fares thread in Fares Fair?

However having tried to search for copies of the FGW PF maps I came across this FoI. It appears that FGW have not got approval, or the DfT were not consulted, over the displayed text for authorised collectors badges. After having deciphered the text I would guess that because the FGW/SWT/SN/FCC policies do not mention the other TOCs in their own policies then the authorised collector would not be allowed to collect on their behalf.

According to the Standard in 2009: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html)

Quote
There are other lines on which one operator has penalty fares and another does not (see box). If, for instance, you are asked for a penalty fare at the excess fares office at Euston and you have arrived on a train run by Virgin, not London Midland, you do not have to pay the penalty.

<snip>

Check also whether the person asking you for a penalty has been authorised by the operator whose train you travelled on. At stations served by more than one train company, even where they both have penalty fares schemes, it may be that the people on the ticket barrier are authorised by one operator but not by the operator you used.

So I am inclined to agree with your interpretation SDS pad ;)

Incidentally this makes a very interesting case for Warminster - Bristol Temple Meads where a Penalty Fare could be charged at Bristol Temple Meads for the 11:01 and 11:33 services run by First Great Western. But could not be charged on the 11:12 operated by South West Trains ::) :-\ :-X

Finally from the IPFAS website: (https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/appeal.aspx)

Quote
A fair and independent assessment.
Because a Penalty Fare is the reverse of the normal "innocent until proved guilty" British justice system, a passenger may want to appeal against a penalty fare if they think that it has been charged incorrectly or unfairly.

My emphasis again in bold... Which just about says it all... ::) Cynical trout is too cynical today :-X :-\


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stebbo on February 25, 2014, 14:59:12
Personally, it seems a bit rich to charge a penalty fare if someone's in the vestibule between First and Standard given the overcrowding on some services.

Mind you my wife came down from Durham to Cheltenham on Cross-Country recently on a cheap first class weekend deal and the train was so rammed that (a) no-one could use the toilets as you couldn't get out the seats; (b) the buffet trolley was stuck up one end of the train; and finally (c) the conductor couldn't even get through to check the tickets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 25, 2014, 15:05:20
Hmm - assuming we're talking HSTs here now, I think it's ok - it's not as if there isn't a buffet (buffer) between Standard & 1st for any overflow.

Its those that set off for the doors at the front in readiness for alighting at PAD that annoy me - especially when they start traipsing through just after leaving Reading sometimes....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 25, 2014, 22:39:55
Hmm - assuming we're talking HSTs here now, I think it's ok - it's not as if there isn't a buffet (buffer) between Standard & 1st for any overflow.

Its those that set off for the doors at the front in readiness for alighting at PAD that annoy me - especially when they start traipsing through just after leaving Reading sometimes....

So you'll like it when First Class becomes 1 1/2 carriages at most then?  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 26, 2014, 10:22:10
The buffets will still be there....I suspect they may rejig the sets so that it still features between the two...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 26, 2014, 21:29:00
If 1st class ends up as 1 1/2 carriages.. where would do you envisage the buffet would be in that formation?  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on February 26, 2014, 22:50:00
If 1st class ends up as 1 1/2 carriages.. where would do you envisage the buffet would be in that formation?  :)

A trolley?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 27, 2014, 09:03:25
Not quite so much of the buffer ChrisB was hoping for then  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 27, 2014, 09:31:08
If 1st class ends up as 1 1/2 carriages.. where would do you envisage the buffet would be in that formation?  :)
Well, if 1st is to be 1.5 carriages, then I would suspect the formation would be:
43 + FO + BuffetFirst + TSO + TSO + TSO + TSO + TSO + TGS + 43

Rather more awkward if first class was to be two full carriages, as then the seats in the buffet car would have to be standard class if you want to ensure the buffet is between first and standard.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 27, 2014, 10:00:56
Placing the buffet vehicle in the train the other way around, with the servery and kitchen at the first class end is simple, as is replacing the first class seats with steerage ones.

IMHO FGW are trying to discourage first class travel by making it unduly expensive.
Historicly IIRC first was priced at about one and a half times the second class fare.
Now it is about twice, or off peak over four times as much.

First class should be a seperate product and should of ourse cost appreciably more, but I wonder if the present differential is excessive ?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 27, 2014, 10:51:24
Do the changes mean that all of First Class will be shouty-phone carriages, and my beloved quiet carriage will be removed?

Can I request keeping the quiet carriage and ditching the ra-ra carriage?   :D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 27, 2014, 10:55:44
Interesting - don't know the answer to that one.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 27, 2014, 11:38:58
Do the changes mean that all of First Class will be shouty-phone carriages, and my beloved quiet carriage will be removed?

Can I request keeping the quiet carriage and ditching the ra-ra carriage?   :D

Whichever they choose will annoy significant numbers of first class passengers and thereby accelerate the decline of first class provision.

If the remaining first class cariage is declared to be a quiet carriage, then that will upset those who wish to use cellphones or other noise makers.


If on the other hand cellphones etc are allowed then that will upset those seeking peace and quiet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 27, 2014, 11:46:01
Placing the buffet vehicle in the train the other way around, with the servery and kitchen at the first class end is simple, as is replacing the first class seats with steerage ones.
Indeed it is relatively simple, but it would require work done on the buffets and would mean first class passengers wouldn't have the option of sitting in the buffet car.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on February 27, 2014, 11:48:10
East Coast have a 1/2 carriage 1st class quiet zone (annoyingly with no charging sockets), the remaining full coaches are all non-quiet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on February 27, 2014, 12:39:33
Placing the buffet vehicle in the train the other way around, with the servery and kitchen at the first class end is simple, as is replacing the first class seats with steerage ones.
Indeed it is relatively simple, but it would require work done on the buffets and would mean first class passengers wouldn't have the option of sitting in the buffet car.

Buffets are very last year, removal would provide more of the famous "thousands of extra seats"

People much prefer a trolley to a proper buffet "surveys show it" After all who wants hot coffee, and cold beer from a buffet when they could have both lukewarm from a trolley ? and who wants a hot snack when they could have a packet of crisps from a trolley ?




Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 27, 2014, 13:55:15
Surveys of takings from Trolleys vs buffets show more takings if pax don't have to leave their seats unfortunately.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on February 27, 2014, 16:38:27
Surveys of takings from Trolleys vs buffets show more takings if pax don't have to leave their seats unfortunately.

In a theoretical world where the trolley makes regular visits, perhaps so. The reality is that the trolley attendant sits out the journey in a vestibule, as witnessed on Cross - Country and SWT. Inevitably, I have to get out of my seat and go find them, which rather defeats the purpose of them.

Also, not sure how you could cook a steak baguette on a trolley, not to mention a Pullman dinner.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 27, 2014, 16:47:11
Trolley takings are thus that they beat the number of steak bagettes being sold.

Of course you need a proper buffet if you're offering Pullman Dining, but we were talking buffet vs trolley. P/Dining is a different, third option.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 28, 2014, 00:05:17
Trolley takings are thus that they beat the number of steak bagettes being sold.

Of course you need a proper buffet if you're offering Pullman Dining, but we were talking buffet vs trolley. P/Dining is a different, third option.
And traveling chef?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on February 28, 2014, 09:25:32
Trolley takings are thus that they beat the number of steak bagettes being sold.

Of course you need a proper buffet if you're offering Pullman Dining, but we were talking buffet vs trolley. P/Dining is a different, third option.
And traveling chef?

Precisely. I would like to know when and where the trolley v buffet study was undertaken, anyone? I absolutely refuse to buy lukewarm beer from trolleys, which it invariably is.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on February 28, 2014, 10:30:01

Precisely. I would like to know when and where the trolley v buffet study was undertaken, anyone? I absolutely refuse to buy lukewarm beer from trolleys, which it invariably is.

Have we mentioned the idea that people won't visit buffets these days because they fear loosing their hard-fought-for seat or don't want the hassle of dragging their luggage all the way with them - "luggage must be kept with you at all times" / bomb and theft risks.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on February 28, 2014, 11:20:15

Precisely. I would like to know when and where the trolley v buffet study was undertaken, anyone? I absolutely refuse to buy lukewarm beer from trolleys, which it invariably is.

Have we mentioned the idea that people won't visit buffets these days because they fear loosing their hard-fought-for seat or don't want the hassle of dragging their luggage all the way with them - "luggage must be kept with you at all times" / bomb and theft risks.

Very good point.  Another thing which discriminates against the able-bodied person travelling alone....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 28, 2014, 11:33:58
Have we mentioned the idea that people won't visit buffets these days because they fear loosing their hard-fought-for seat

A real fear, apparently

Quote
or don't want the hassle of dragging their luggage all the way with them - "luggage must be kept with you at all times" / bomb and theft risks.

Red herring - no one's bothered. When was the last time you saw anyone doing this?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Tim on February 28, 2014, 11:44:28

IMHO FGW are trying to discourage first class travel by making it unduly expensive.
Historicly IIRC first was priced at about one and a half times the second class fare.
Now it is about twice, or off peak over four times as much.

First class should be a seperate product and should of ourse cost appreciably more, but I wonder if the present differential is excessive ?

I am not sure it is excessive.  But it is complicated.

I wonder how much more providing a first class seat actually costs.  Firstly there is a lower seating density (almost half) and then the far lower utilisation of FC on short flows outside the peak (a first class seat is more likely to be empty than a standard class seat) and then the cost of providing other perks (freebies and extra staff).  I wouldn't be surprised if a first class coach earns less than a standard class coach on average.  That suggests that the differential should be more. 



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on February 28, 2014, 14:31:04
On the 7.59 Maidenhead to Paddington earlier First class was at the rear.. This is usually a hopeful sign that we might just be lucky enough for a ticket check.. But no.. Instead the guard/train manager person sent everyone that was standing in the back vestibule to sit down, presumably so he could have the vestibule area to himself. No ticket check after that obviously. So that gave out a very clear signal to me and other passengers about how to travel first class..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Brucey on March 01, 2014, 08:54:37
Quote
or don't want the hassle of dragging their luggage all the way with them - "luggage must be kept with you at all times" / bomb and theft risks.

Red herring - no one's bothered. When was the last time you saw anyone doing this?
I'm bothered about having my luggage stolen and/or tampered with by others.  That is a reason why I won't visit the buffet/shop when travelling with large item(s).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on March 01, 2014, 11:45:28
Not to mention that if you request a complimentary drink having gone and found trolley on XC services. You're sent back to your seat empty handed as staff are told to serve Standard Class first as thats where the revenue is... ::)

Of course if you offer to pay for one that's a different story and you may just get it if you're lucky.

When I travel in First it's usually always on off peak services after the at seat trolley service finishes for the day. I have no problems with going to the buffet to get a drink, sometimes it's inconvenient. Sometimes the Buffet Host comes and gives me one if it's just me in First Class (I'm surprised how much that happens from the same staff member actually ::) ;D )

or don't want the hassle of dragging their luggage all the way with them - "luggage must be kept with you at all times" / bomb and theft risks.

Red herring - no one's bothered. When was the last time you saw anyone doing this?

You'd be surprised and I can name several cases. On a train a while back and left my back on the seat whilst I went to get some refreshments from the Buffet, I was in Coach F. A lady sat in Coach G saw me leave the seat and head in the direction of the buffet car. No sooner had I been served my drink (About 5 minutes later) I heard a voice just further down to me that said: "I don't mean to be an alarmist, but someone has left a bag on the seat"

To which I came across and said it was mine and that I was in the buffet. The lady replied "Well you can't be too careful in this day and age" without thinking I came back with: "I know, which is why if I was a real terrorist I wouldn't have left my bag there for the world to see... ::) "

The other case happened a couple of weeks ago after using the Disabled Karzi at Bristol Temple Meads on Platform 15... Apparently a young person with a tool type, looking bag in the bog for more than 5 minutes is frowned upon... :-[ :-X :-\


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 03, 2014, 12:57:28
IMHO FGW are trying to discourage first class travel by making it unduly expensive.
Historicly IIRC first was priced at about one and a half times the second class fare.
Now it is about twice, or off peak over four times as much.

First class should be a seperate product and should of ourse cost appreciably more, but I wonder if the present differential is excessive ?

Agree that walk on First Class fares are too expensive, but there's some bargains to be had in the advance fare department, just like there are on many Standard class flows.  ^32 Cardiff to Reading, ^38 Milton Keynes to Chester, ^26 Bedford to Sheffield, ^56 Peterborough to Edinburgh are, I'm sure, all cheaper than they were before the days of advance fares.  A third off of them if you have a railcard as well!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on March 03, 2014, 19:49:09
If Friday's issue wasn't bad enough.. today the 7.59 was missing coach H... You can guess the resulting trouble.. I do wonder why they sell First class tickets to Maidenhead passengers  ???


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on March 03, 2014, 22:25:22
Hope you are writing in for your refunds?  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on March 04, 2014, 06:42:34
Hope you are writing in for your refunds?  ;)

Oh yes indeed I am.. I think I managed to convince a fellow passenger to do the same yesterday morning too.. It must cost FGW so much in admin time to produce all these vouchers, reply to e-mails etc (let alone the time you've said it takes you (and others I imagine) to renew your season ticket due to all the vouchers)... Yet.. They still don't get it  ???


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on March 04, 2014, 08:21:48
And don't let them fob you off with 'this only applies on HST trains and not Turbos' - they omitted that appalling condition from the Oct 13 conditions so its open season on Turbo's from now onwards.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on March 04, 2014, 20:51:30
And don't let them fob you off with 'this only applies on HST trains and not Turbos' - they omitted that appalling condition from the Oct 13 conditions so its open season on Turbo's from now onwards.

Ooh that is a new one on me.. they really need to work out whether they sell first class tickets.. or not.. :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on March 05, 2014, 07:26:57
If Friday's issue wasn't bad enough.. today the 7.59 was missing coach H... You can guess the resulting trouble.. I do wonder why they sell First class tickets to Maidenhead passengers  ???

I'm afraid today's 07:59 from Maidenhead (07:06 from Didcot Parkway) is missing all its coaches.  Cancelled due a train fault.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on March 05, 2014, 20:54:33
If Friday's issue wasn't bad enough.. today the 7.59 was missing coach H... You can guess the resulting trouble.. I do wonder why they sell First class tickets to Maidenhead passengers  ???

I'm afraid today's 07:59 from Maidenhead (07:06 from Didcot Parkway) is missing all its coaches.  Cancelled due a train fault.

Indeed it was Bobm.. My third e-mail to FGW today since..erm.. Friday asking for a refund for the difference between first and standard on my season ticket.. Pretty bad considering that was 3 days out of 4 which is a pretty big fail..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Lee on March 14, 2014, 09:08:28
Conversion of some first class accommodation to standard has been officially announced, along with a refresh of first class accommodation - http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Media-Centre/2014/March/more-standard-class-seats-and-refreshed-first-class-environment


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on March 14, 2014, 09:41:10
In addition to the standard class re-seating, work will be undertaken to refresh the remaining first class accommodation, 1^ carriages per train, recognising the importance of this to commuter, business and leisure customers. This activity will include realignment of single seats, installation of privacy screens, more comfortable headrests, re-covered seats, new carpets and other changes designed to improve the experience for first class customers.

Ah yes, improving the experience by giving us fewer seats. Given some of the loadings west of Swindon I've noticed recently in first, I'll be fascinated to hear what they are going to be like out of Paddington.

Does realignment of single seats mean airline I wonder? If so, that certainly isn't going to improve my experience. I also wonder whether recovering seats, (with no mention of leather) means that they are going to revert to a more conventional covering.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on March 14, 2014, 10:07:30

Does realignment of single seats mean airline I wonder?

It might just mean turning some seats round so that they don't come up against a partition?   Suppose it depends exactly where the 'half way' point is in the carriage.

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 10:35:09
Further from the Press Release -

Quote
The first completed carriages are expected to be running in June 2014, with the entire fleet completed by late summer 2015.
The programme to provide additional standard class seats is being funded by the Department for Transport, while the changes to first class accommodation are being funded by First Great Western.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 10:45:51
More info....

Quote
On 35 of our High Speed Trains we will be taking a first class carriage and converting it into a standard class carriage with 80 standard class seats. In addition to the extra seats, we have listened to customer feedback and these carriages will also have more 4-person tables. The other 18 High Speed Trains will have a first class carriage converted into a composite carriage, half standard and half first, with the saloons fully divided with a door.

.....re-covered leather seats.....LED lighting....Catering will not be affected as a result of the investment; both the first class at seat trolley service and a buffet car service will continue to be offered  and our very popular Pullman dining services will continue....All the work to convert the carriages and to refresh the first class environment will be done in the UK , with the work to the first class carriages being undertaken at our depot in Laira, Plymouth and the reseating work being undertaken in Scotland

Our programme to fit Wi-Fi to all these trains is unaffected. The first services with Wi-Fi will operate from June and by December of this year all our high speed trains should be offering the free service to both standard and first class customers.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on March 14, 2014, 11:18:48

Does realignment of single seats mean airline I wonder?

It might just mean turning some seats round so that they don't come up against a partition?   Suppose it depends exactly where the 'half way' point is in the carriage.

Paul


I cant imagine that "realignment" will be to make things better ! so I would presume that either bus seating, or smaller tables and reduced seating pitch are intended.
After all the new trains have bus seating EVEN IN FIRST as do the adelantes, so really it is moving with the times.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on March 14, 2014, 11:47:16

After all the new trains have bus seating...

Yawn...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on March 14, 2014, 12:14:35

After all the new trains have bus seating...

Yawn...

Hard to spread one's papers etc out with airline seats (even with a small table in first) which is one of the key advantages that I get from travelling first. So I'm with broadgage on this one.  You might yawn, but as a premium paying customer I would regard it as a significant reduction in service quality if it's what's meant by realignment.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on March 14, 2014, 12:23:16
I was just yawning about the term 'bus seating' which broadgage seems to use rather than the normal railway term 'airline' seating.

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on March 14, 2014, 12:34:36
I was just yawning about the term 'bus seating' which broadgage seems to use rather than the normal railway term 'airline' seating.

Paul

Most customers call the unidirectional seating "bus seating" IME.
Only the rail industry calls it "airline seating" presumably becuase they think that airline sounds better than bus.

Whatever one calls it unidirectional seating is widely regarded as inferior to traditional seats at tables.

I note that in Scotland, that TPTB are requiring a certain percentage of seats on new trains to be at tables, presumably because that is what customers prefer.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 13:22:47
The converted coaches will have 8 4-person tables....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on March 14, 2014, 13:28:00
Quote
Additional seating capacity secured and consultation begins on improved timetable for West of England
As you know we have been working hard to secure further improvements for our customers including additional standard class seating capacity on our long distance trains.

The Department for Transport has today confirmed that together we are investing around ^13 million on our HST trains, with the Government funding additional standard class capacity, and FGW funding a refresh of our first class environment.

This joint approach will deliver some 3,000 more standard class seats a day for customers across the network. That is almost 16% more standard class accommodation across all our High Speed Trains into London in the busy morning peak.

On 35 of our High Speed Trains we will be taking a first class carriage and converting it into a standard class carriage with 80 standard class seats. These will be arranged to include eight 4-person tables, in response to customer feedback. The other 18 High Speed Trains will have a first class carriage converted into a half standard and half first class carriage, separated by a dividing door.

All our High Speed Trains will therefore retain one and half carriages of First Class seating. Even after these changes we expect the vast majority of services to have spare capacity in first class, and room for growth.

Offering a premium first class service to our commuter, business and leisure customers is very important to our business, so we are investing in a refresh of the first class carriages at the same time.

This will include realignment of single seats, installation of privacy screens, more comfortable headrests, re-covered leather seats, new carpets, LED lighting and other changes designed to improve the experience for first class customers.

All the work to convert the carriages and to refresh the first class environment will be done in the UK, with the work to the first class carriages being undertaken at our depot in Laira, Plymouth and the reseating work being undertaken in Scotland.

The first completed carriages are expected to be running in June 2014, with the entire fleet completed by late summer 2015.

As we begin to carry out this work, you may notice changes to our reservations systems. In particular, we will begin re-lettering our first class carriages in preparation for the changes. Seat reservations for first class for travel from Sunday 18th May will now be in carriages labelled K and L, rather than G and H.

Our programme to fit Wi-Fi to all these trains is also going to plan. The first services will operate from June and by December of this year all our High Speed Trains should be offering free Wi-Fi to both standard and first class customers.

As well as the exciting news about the extra seats, we have also just been given permission by the Department for Transport to implement some timetable changes in May and start a formal consultation on some important prospective changes for December. 

These proposals will deliver a much improved service for the West of England, supporting economic growth through the enhancement of connectivity between major centres. As with any timetable there may be some changes that will not suit everyone. We have worked hard to minimise these and the vast majority of customers should find the changes offer them new opportunities and better timings as well as winning new business to the railway.

Both announcements are excellent news for our customers and show the confidence the DfT has in FGW. This comes from the work you do day in and day out to make sure the service we provide is the best it can be.  Please keep up the good work as we intend to keep working with the DfT, and with you, on further improvements throughout this franchise period including how we might continue to address capacity issues on our network.

Thank you for everything you are doing, the hard work is paying off.

Mark Hopwood
Managing Director


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 13:47:02
More info....

Quote
On 35 of our High Speed Trains we will be taking a first class carriage and converting it into a standard class carriage with 80 standard class seats. In addition to the extra seats, we have listened to customer feedback and these carriages will also have more 4-person tables. The other 18 High Speed Trains will have a first class carriage converted into a composite carriage, half standard and half first, with the saloons fully divided with a door.

.....re-covered leather seats.....LED lighting....Catering will not be affected as a result of the investment; both the first class at seat trolley service and a buffet car service will continue to be offered  and our very popular Pullman dining services will continue....All the work to convert the carriages and to refresh the first class environment will be done in the UK , with the work to the first class carriages being undertaken at our depot in Laira, Plymouth and the reseating work being undertaken in Scotland

Our programme to fit Wi-Fi to all these trains is unaffected. The first services with Wi-Fi will operate from June and by December of this year all our high speed trains should be offering the free service to both standard and first class customers.

snap!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on March 14, 2014, 14:22:49
The converted coaches will have 8 4-person tables....

How are they going to get 80 seats, with 32 around tables, in these converted coaches? Current low density carriages, with 4 tables, only manage 80 seats.

Are the toilets/trolley store/luggage racks coming out of the former 1st Class carriages to make the extra room?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 14:53:15
Or high-density, god-forbid?

Toilet removal wouldn't cause too much hassle though...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on March 14, 2014, 15:11:03
All high density means is there are 2 tables as opposed to 4. Still only gives you a total seating capacity of 84.

I can't see how's it's possible to have a carriage with 80 seats, 32 of which will be around 8 tables. Unless toilets/trolley stores are removed and luggage racks reduced.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on March 14, 2014, 16:02:11
Is the consensus now that all the modified trains will still have one and a half coaches of first class seating, with some of the half coaches being the full buffets, and the rest being 50/50 first and standard?

So there'll be no trains which only have one first class coach?

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2014, 16:38:18
Correct. As stated in FGW releases today


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on March 14, 2014, 16:54:36
How are they going to manage to provide the Pullman service with less First Class seating as they currently use part of coach G as well as the section of First next to the buffet on peak services. Going to leave very little seating for those not dining?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on March 14, 2014, 17:09:12
I was wondering that, and what about the quiet coach?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 14, 2014, 21:56:12
As ever, I'll wait to see the refresh in the flesh before I comment too much, though welcome that FGW has apparently listened to criticism that there are too few tables on HST sets and are putting eight more in the additional carriage.  That might not be enough for some of course, but goes some small way to redressing the balance which should be an appropriate ratio between seats at tables and airline seats - the original refresh went too far down the airline route in my opinion, which is why I'm pleased that tables are making an appropriate return in this refresh and also in the likely IEP seating layouts.

We'll see how the reduction in first class seating goes down with the passengers, as the press release says, on the vast majority of trains accommodation will be more than adequate still, but there will be a few services that pose a problem - that's the problem with the same train having to be both a long distance leisure train and a commuter express in one.  Heaven forbid that first class passengers have to share a table of four with someone else  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on March 14, 2014, 22:58:43
The term bus seating is inappropriate to apply to HSTs.

Bus seating = low back rest, no arm rests, no pull down tables. Like the Northern Rail class 142s that appeared on FGW routes for a short while.

Airline seating = high back rest, arm rests, pull down tables. Just like HSTs.

As usual, I'm with IndustryInsider on this. Let's actually wait to see what the first refreshed coach looks like before passing judgement.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 21, 2014, 01:13:59
From the Slough Express (http://www.sloughexpress.co.uk/News/All-Areas/Slough/Slough-MP-supports-more-seats-on-train-plans-19032014.htm):

Quote
Slough MP supports more seats on train plans

(http://www.sloughexpress.co.uk/imagelibrary/Client%20Images/Client00010/ResizeCache/01045000/01045940%20-%20210x239.jpg)

Plans to expand the number of standard class seats on First Great Western trains have been supported by Fiona Mactaggart.

The operator has agreed with the Department for Transport (DfT) to create almost 3,000 more standard class seats a day for customers across its network by introducing the changes to all of its high speed trains.

The Slough MP said: "Like other passengers on the busy route I feel very frustrated when I am forced to stand squashed up against other people in a train where there are a number of empty first class carriages. I'm glad that the DFT and First Great Western have listened to commuters who experience poor rail services every day. There is still a way to go to improve rail services overall, but this is a good step in the right direction."

The first completed carriages are expected to be running in June, with the entire fleet due to be completed by late summer 2015.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 21, 2014, 10:16:58
yeah, right. Don't MPs get 1st class priviledges?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on March 21, 2014, 10:25:19
yeah, right. Don't MPs get 1st class priviledges?

Not any more, hence the conspiracy theory that it is the MPs along the route who are behind the decision...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on March 21, 2014, 10:30:15
Yes, her & Mrs May in particular....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on March 21, 2014, 16:32:39
yeah, right. Don't MPs get 1st class priviledges?

Not any more, hence the conspiracy theory that it is the MPs along the route who are behind the decision...

Paul

Agree, I think that MPs should be allowed first class, not because they deserve it, but to stop this sort of thing.

I bet that if MPs were allowed First, that it would soon become "a vital service for local employers, that should be protected"


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on March 23, 2014, 19:20:42
Do many HSTs stop at Slough? Only she mention empty 'carriages' rather than compartments in a Thames Turbo.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on March 23, 2014, 21:23:17
In the current timetable 22 HSTs call M-F - 10 coming out of Paddington.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on April 13, 2014, 00:37:48
I caught one of the 5 newly converted ex-buffet carriages today and I can confirm that they are fitted with 8 tables. I presume the carriages converted from First to Standard Class will adopt a similar layout. The extra tables are obviously good as it brings the train as a whole up to a more reasonable number, and there is plenty of back to seating, and subsequent additional luggage space. I think these carriages will deal much, much better with the amounts of luggage people tend to bring. However, I don't believe there were 80 seats in the carriage, the legroom seemed to be worse than in other carriages and the seat-to-window alignment was awful. The carriages with the extra tables are quite easy to spot, I noticed it straight away just looking through the windows. The initial 5 coaches will be numbered 42516-42520 for anybody looking out for them.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 14, 2014, 08:53:02

The 05:11 Worcester-->Paddington arrived without Coach G today.  I'm hoping that this is a temporary problem although it is indicative of the incoming changes.

I counted 35 First Class passengers standing in Coach H for the final run into Paddington.  I hope they all claim refunds.
A woman collapsed further down the carriage and had to be helped to a chair.
There was no ticket check for my piece of the journey, nor announcement of where Coach G had been left.

Utterly utterly useless.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 14, 2014, 13:12:33
Yes, this might have been a one off breakdown, but will soon be the norm as first class is to be downgraded to one and a half coaches only.
Presuming that those standing did in fact have first class tickets, then I also hope that they claim refunds.

Regarding claiming a refund, how does a first class ticket holder prove that they had to stand ? I have only once claimed a refund for standing in first, and the ticket examiner had endorsed my ticket by way of proof.
However in the absence of a ticket check ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 14, 2014, 14:03:04
The TM is never far from 1st class...in my experience. And the buffet person can usually locate / know where they are


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 14, 2014, 14:07:55
Regarding claiming a refund, how does a first class ticket holder prove that they had to stand ? I have only once claimed a refund for standing in first, and the ticket examiner had endorsed my ticket by way of proof.
However in the absence of a ticket check ?

I've had no problem in claiming refunds for having to stand over the past 3 years.  If a train manager ever presented themselves then I can see how their endorsement would be useful but as a) I never see a train manager, and b) I'm not sure how that would work with an annual season ticket(?), it has never been an issue for me.

I just write in to the Customer Services department stating why I wish to claim and back comes a collection of vouchers.  I usually wait until the end of the month before doing this to save the paperwork.

The only issue I've ever had is when Customer Services say I can't claim for having to stand on a Turbo service.  However I believe that I'm correct in saying that the October 2013 passenger charter revised the terms to give refunds on all services so I just point out that they are using an old template and they pay up in the end.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 14, 2014, 14:11:09
The TM is never far from 1st class...in my experience. And the buffet person can usually locate / know where they are

I continually remind FGW at the meet the manager sessions that they should be checking tickets on my service because people often have to stand.  As those comments are continually ignored (I estimate 1 check per month on average) I'm not going to queue on the train to remind the manager.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 14, 2014, 14:22:30
Depends whether you want your refund I guess.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 14, 2014, 14:32:15
Depends whether you want your refund I guess.

As I say above, I haven't had any problems with obtaining a refund in the past.  If that were to change then I may change my approach.

But if I'm going to see the TM about the seating then they will be getting reminders about all of the other things that my experience is lacking, like the trolley service/lack of papers/loud conversations in Coach G etc etc, so they may prefer me to stay in my seat.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on April 14, 2014, 16:01:43

The 05:11 Worcester-->Paddington arrived without Coach G today.  I'm hoping that this is a temporary problem although it is indicative of the incoming changes.

I counted 35 First Class passengers standing in Coach H for the final run into Paddington.  I hope they all claim refunds.
A woman collapsed further down the carriage and had to be helped to a chair.
There was no ticket check for my piece of the journey, nor announcement of where Coach G had been left.

Utterly utterly useless.

Was that from Maidenhead? I was on the 07.02 Turbo departure which this morning left before the arrival of the connection from Bourne End so I'd guess that all the passengers from the branch train had to squeeze onto yours.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 14, 2014, 16:32:15

The 05:11 Worcester-->Paddington arrived without Coach G today.  I'm hoping that this is a temporary problem although it is indicative of the incoming changes.

I counted 35 First Class passengers standing in Coach H for the final run into Paddington.  I hope they all claim refunds.
A woman collapsed further down the carriage and had to be helped to a chair.
There was no ticket check for my piece of the journey, nor announcement of where Coach G had been left.

Utterly utterly useless.

This seems to be fairly common place at the moment, so far in 2014 I've been on trains where coach H missing (reservations placed in coach G (which was de-quieted & those reservations for coach G placed in coach F but no information provided); coach H wrongly labelled as the quiet carriage and G with no quiet labels with quiet carriage reservations left in the now not quiet coach G & also a train with a 'defective' coach H cordoned off out of service and everyone rammed into G which was also de-quieted. Various seat reservations either missing entirely from a whole carriage/train and an odd time with most in place, but one or two missing here and there.

Couple of carriages running about over the winter with no heating whatsoever & assorted coaches in formation the 'wrong' way round. All in all a bit chaotic at times over the last few months and I can see it getting worse once the 'improvements' have been made and probably the peak of chaos during the conversion.

Based on my last few months of travelling S.Wales - London & return weekly I am beginning to agree with your final comment!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on April 14, 2014, 17:00:24
The TM is never far from 1st class...in my experience. And the buffet person can usually locate / know where they are

I continually remind FGW at the meet the manager sessions that they should be checking tickets on my service because people often have to stand.  As those comments are continually ignored (I estimate 1 check per month on average) I'm not going to queue on the train to remind the manager.


Each time I write in to claim my refund for standing in First Class I ask them why they sell First Class tickets yet, due to no ticket checks being made, regularly do NOT provide a First Class service.. They ignore the question each time.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 14, 2014, 18:18:42
When it comes to checking tickets its very hard to do so between Oxford and Hereford due to the short platforms at many of the stations.   The short platforms require the TM to be at a specific location in the train to operate SDO and release the doors.
If they try to do a ticket check they often find themselves in the wrong location, its around about 10 minute run between stations, and end up fighting there way back through the train which in turn causes delays.  Also, if a passenger pays by debit or credit card and there is an issue with the card the TM can not walk away with the customers card to release the doors.
Services between Oxford and Hereford really need an extra member of staff on board who's sole duty is ticket checks.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 14, 2014, 20:30:41
Having asked a few staff, I'm getting a very consistent view that there will be no quiet carriage in first going forward. As someone who always sits in the QC (as do several other regular travellers) I think it's a poor show that FGW can't be bothered to even give those of us seeking a bit of piece and quiet half a carriage.

Also today, the configuration of the 0700 BRI to PAD had the buffet divorced from first class as the carriage had been turned around. I don't know whether it was a coincidence but there was no first class trolley service, despite there being a second member of catering crew on board. This evening's TM mentioned that turning the smaller buffets round is part of the reconfiguration. I can't work out why that would be necessary.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 14, 2014, 21:03:51
Having asked a few staff, I'm getting a very consistent view that there will be no quiet carriage in first going forward. As someone who always sits in the QC (as do several other regular travellers) I think it's a poor show that FGW can't be bothered to even give those of us seeking a bit of piece and quiet half a carriage.

Also today, the configuration of the 0700 BRI to PAD had the buffet divorced from first class as the carriage had been turned around. I don't know whether it was a coincidence but there was no first class trolley service, despite there being a second member of catering crew on board. This evening's TM mentioned that turning the smaller buffets round is part of the reconfiguration. I can't work out why that would be necessary.

I can't see why that's necessary either and I don't think that is the case.  I was led to believe that some buffet cars are the wrong way round as this is how they were offloaded from the low loaders.  The depot then inserted the buffet into the set the wrong way round simply to prevent the set going out short formed.  There was no time to turn it back.

All vehicles are kept the same way round to ensure train and isolation equipment is on all the same side.  (both sides of a vehicle are not identical in terms of access points and isolation equipment) this help with ease of maintenance.  With everything on the same side its obviously quicker than having to run round the train with tools and equipment to service just one coach. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on April 14, 2014, 21:10:56
Coach H on the 7.08 Maidenhead to Paddington was the wrong way around last Tuesday.. It was very disconcerting at that time of the morning for me..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 14, 2014, 21:18:46
They are slowly being turned back the right way as and when time allows.  You're looking at the best part of 2 hours worth of work to turn a coach!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 12:27:11
When it comes to checking tickets its very hard to do so between Oxford and Hereford due to the short platforms at many of the stations.   The short platforms require the TM to be at a specific location in the train to operate SDO and release the doors.
If they try to do a ticket check they often find themselves in the wrong location, its around about 10 minute run between stations, and end up fighting there way back through the train which in turn causes delays.  Also, if a passenger pays by debit or credit card and there is an issue with the card the TM can not walk away with the customers card to release the doors.
Services between Oxford and Hereford really need an extra member of staff on board who's sole duty is ticket checks.

Agreed, FGW simply need to employ sufficient revenue protection staff across the network in order to properly protect both their revenue and more importantly to prevent the other fare paying passengers subsidising those who choose to engage in fare evasion


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 12:36:12
Having asked a few staff, I'm getting a very consistent view that there will be no quiet carriage in first going forward. As someone who always sits in the QC (as do several other regular travellers) I think it's a poor show that FGW can't be bothered to even give those of us seeking a bit of piece and quiet half a carriage.

I think it is about time that FGW are clear about what their proposed first class offering will be post refresh. There are many regular travellers from S.Wales to London and return in first and also quite a number of those who choose the quiet carriage, so it is only right that they are transparent about what can be expected in future rather than, for example, just having the booking engine stating that the quiet carriage cannot be reserved.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 15, 2014, 13:03:18
Personally I think removing a First Class carriage is a bad idea, there should have been at least a trial before they committed to anything to gain reaction.  Its worth noting, that during off-peak periods, First Class is well used on some routes.

Ideally, the DfT should have investigated the possibility of compensating HEx in return for them giving up at least one of its train paths during the peak.  I think the current service level of every 15 minutes to Heathrow is absurd given the overcrowding on FGW out of Paddington, from what I've seen they seldom run at full capacity.
That path should then be allocated to FGW running an HST of some formation, ie all standard class, or something along those lines between Padd and Reading.  That is potentially a significant increase in seats whilst keeping the current First Class provision.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 15, 2014, 13:06:45
|Errrr....FGW don't have any spare HSTs lying around that don't need to be used in the peaks....so whatever trip you are suggesting, it couldn't go very far....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 15, 2014, 13:16:28
... This evening's TM mentioned that turning the smaller buffets round is part of the reconfiguration. I can't work out why that would be necessary.

Perhaps the coach with the small buffet in it becomes the composite coach, which will be half first?   Whichever way round and wherever they put the small buffet it can no longer form the boundary between first and standard in the relevant trains?

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 15, 2014, 13:56:30
Services between Oxford and Hereford really need an extra member of staff on board who's sole duty is ticket checks.

And indeed the HSTs always used to have one. They were made redundant shortly after GWT became FGW - I remember one of them (Michael?) reappearing as platform staff at Foregate Street.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 15, 2014, 14:00:22
Did anyone ever consider disposing of the buffet cars on HST's completely, and gaining half a carriage that way?

Yes, FGW lose revenue from the buffet but does that exceed the loss of a full carriage of First Class passengers?
You could still have a trolley with hot drinks if you wanted to for long journeys.

Guess its too late now.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 15, 2014, 14:22:31
Personally I think removing a First Class carriage is a bad idea, there should have been at least a trial before they committed to anything to gain reaction.  Its worth noting, that during off-peak periods, First Class is well used on some routes.

But how many of those are on Advances? The removal of those would thus cure the problem, as Advances are used to fill empty seats, and there won't be any, according to you going forward.

Quote
Ideally, the DfT should have investigated the possibility of compensating HEx in return for them giving up at least one of its train paths during the peak.  I think the current service level of every 15 minutes to Heathrow is absurd given the overcrowding on FGW out of Paddington, from what I've seen they seldom run at full capacity.

The times I've been on them, there are fewer empty seats than on the HSTs in the off-peak....HEx won't give up the paths they have....[/quote]


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 15, 2014, 14:35:54
|Errrr....FGW don't have any spare HSTs lying around that don't need to be used in the peaks....so whatever trip you are suggesting, it couldn't go very far....

To be honest, I didn't look at the figures before suggesting that!!  I think FGW has in the region of 117 power cars and 53? sets.  If that's correct, its not totally impossible but would depend on how many trailer vehicles they have spare or that are currently off lease and could be bought back into use once the current refresh program has finished.

Quote
The times I've been on them, there are fewer empty seats than on the HSTs in the off-peak....HEx won't give up the paths they have....

BAA funded the building of the Heathrow link.  As a result the then Railtrack guaranteed them paths into London Paddington up until a certain date, 2020 or something like that.  After that, I presume those paths will be up for grabs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 14:43:09
But how many of those are on Advances? The removal of those would thus cure the problem, as Advances are used to fill empty seats, and there won't be any, according to you going forward.

I wonder how many people actually travel with anytime first tickets? The price of anytime first is, in my eyes, a complete insult when the level of service offered on FGW is given consideration!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 15, 2014, 15:13:00
But how many of those are on Advances? The removal of those would thus cure the problem, as Advances are used to fill empty seats, and there won't be any, according to you going forward.

I wonder how many people actually travel with anytime first tickets? The price of anytime first is, in my eyes, a complete insult when the level of service offered on FGW is given consideration!

I suspect very few use Anytime First, and very few of those will be paying their own fare......one thing which should be stopped immediately if First class accomodation is being reduced is present/former railway staff using their free/almost free travel privileges to sit in First class - that will free up more space for paying customers.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 15, 2014, 15:24:10
Did anyone ever consider disposing of the buffet cars on HST's completely, and gaining half a carriage that way?

They certainly did.   Here's how the decision not to go ahead with complete removal was being discussed back in 2008.  http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3163.0 

(IIRC the plan then was to have been trolleys only.)

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 15, 2014, 15:28:08
BAA funded the building of the Heathrow link.  As a result the then Railtrack guaranteed them paths into London Paddington up until a certain date, 2020 or something like that.  After that, I presume those paths will be up for grabs.

Yup - I understand that BAA has first refusal on renewing them....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 15:32:03
I suspect very few use Anytime First, and very few of those will be paying their own fare......one thing which should be stopped immediately if First class accomodation is being reduced is present/former railway staff using their free/almost free travel privileges to sit in First class - that will free up more space for paying customers.

My thoughts exactly about advance fares vs anytime.

Your second point is also something which I agree needs to be removed immediately - I was on a London bound train during February half term this year where a significant part of coach G (around 20, yes, 20 seats) was taken up by FGW employees and their famlilies (not taking any notice whatsoever of the quiet carriage rules, of course), including one discussing how one of the children should use their fathers pass to somehow gain access to the Underground network (not sure how this works, but it sounded somewhat dishonest to me), I was fairly fuming when I heard that!

Some of the onboard staff also use first class seats to stash their belongings or just to sit for a chat during a quiet spell - it does not project a particularly good image for customer facing staff to do this - but then if the company challenges any of these behaviours, no doubt the unions will become involved in industrial action over the 'constantly eroding benefits' or some such which...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 15, 2014, 16:55:03
I have noticed several anomalies with some of the First Class Coaches. For example 2 Coach G's in the consist. Have fun explaining to someone that Fraud Coach G (which is meant to be Coach H) is infact not the quiet carriage is always great fun!

There was a set running around that had a Coach H the wrong way round for a while, usually able to tell if there is a Toilet behind the power car - usually this is an empty store room.

Another set with 2 Coach H's in it of which one had a broken toilet... Leaving just 1 Toilet in First Class, great fun!

I think the removal of First Advances will become necessary and it's not something I'm too happy about either. Reduction of the First Class is a ridiculous idea too in my opinion. Several trains I've caught into London both on and off peak have been comfortably loaded and I've always needed to share the table by Reading.

The Mayflower and The Cornishman Services down to Plymouth and beyond are also well loaded in First Class - Quite a number using FSR Tickets (First Off-Peak Return) I certainly use FCR (First Off Peak Day Return) tickets on both of these services. I'd be pretty unnerved if I had to kick someone out of the priority seats...

I too think a trial should've been done. But why can't FGW use the approach that Virgin SuperVoyagers use? Have an interchangeable First/Standard Class Carriage. Then classify as appropriate depending on the requirements of the Journey. I can think of a few occasions where I have been asked by a Train Manager to move to Coach F (Full Buffet) so that he can declassify First Class G & H and I think this is an acceptable procedure. Passengers got seats where otherwise they would have to stand. I still got the First Class seating in Coach F. It was a win win situation all round.

Of course we all know that come when these changes are made permanent that FGW will be the villains when it is DfT paying for the removal... :-X :-\ :-[


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 15, 2014, 17:13:33
I think the removal of First Advances will become necessary and it's not something I'm too happy about either. Reduction of the First Class is a ridiculous idea too in my opinion. Several trains I've caught into London both on and off peak have been comfortably loaded and I've always needed to share the table by Reading.

The intention I've heard mooted being that if it's a table of 4 then that's 4 1st class seats (not 2 or even 1, but 4) and pax are ging to have to get used to this. Just as in Standard actually.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 17:39:35
The intention I've heard mooted being that if it's a table of 4 then that's 4 1st class seats (not 2 or even 1, but 4) and pax are ging to have to get used to this. Just as in Standard actually.

All very well and good and will deal with those aisle hoggers who stick their feet on the seat opposite in the hope they'll keep all four seats to themselves, but if first is on average 70% full (FGW's own figures) then how does reducing capacity by at least 50% work? If same numbers of people wish to travel in first then some will be denied seats...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 15, 2014, 18:38:12
I don't think I was suggesting I deliberately try and discourage people from sharing my table... Quite the opposite in fact. Anyone who is brave enough to sit next to me is more than welcome to :) You just won't get me in the window seat any time soon, I can't sit still and I will frequently get up from my seat and move around ;)

Contrary to belief and comments I've put on the forum in the past, I'm happy to share a table. But the 'city folks' [generalisation] who seem to think the likes of moi don't belong in First Class are the ones who I find less inclined to share and can be very vocal about it... I guess they'll have to get used to it... Just like how I get used to 1A35 and 1A37 getting gatecrashed on Friday and Saturday nights :-\ :-X ;D

[tongue-in-cheek=on]

You might however wish to sit somewhere else if you see thetrout with a cup of coffee on the table and you have an expensive laptop...

[tongue-in-cheek=off]


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 15, 2014, 18:53:43

All very well and good and will deal with those aisle hoggers who stick their feet on the seat opposite in the hope they'll keep all four seats to themselves,

I don't think in 5 years of commuting first class, I've ever seen that done.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 15, 2014, 20:53:41

All very well and good and will deal with those aisle hoggers who stick their feet on the seat opposite in the hope they'll keep all four seats to themselves,

I don't think in 5 years of commuting first class, I've ever seen that done.

I've lost count now of the number of times I've had to ask middle aged men in suits to take their feet (usually very reluctantly) off the seats, more often than not they're occupying an aisle seat at the time - admittedly I'm putting 2 and 2 together, but the general attitude involved would suggest that they're trying to hog 4 seats...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: tom m on April 15, 2014, 21:13:22

I suspect very few use Anytime First, and very few of those will be paying their own fare......one thing which should be stopped immediately if First class accomodation is being reduced is present/former railway staff using their free/almost free travel privileges to sit in First class - that will free up more space for paying customers.

Part of the terms and conditions for priv pass holders is that they give priority to full fare paying passengers and should give up their seat if there are no spare seats.

There are also a number of busy trains that fgw advise priv pass holders against usin.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on April 15, 2014, 21:29:57
There was a ticket check (in first class at least) on the 7.08 between Maidenhead and Paddington this morning.. They are so few and far between so most welcome and in coach H at least (which was the right way around today) everyone appeared to have the correct tickets  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 16, 2014, 10:42:35
Part of the terms and conditions for priv pass holders is that they give priority to full fare paying passengers and should give up their seat if there are no spare seats.

There are also a number of busy trains that fgw advise priv pass holders against usin.
[/quote]


There's a clear and unambigious solution to this - Privilege pass holders sit in Standard class only and book ahead in the same way as those on Advance tickets for a particular train, those trains that are highlighted as "busy" are excluded........that levels the playing field to some extent with paying customers whilst allowing those concerned to retain their benefits.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 16, 2014, 11:11:52
... but if first is on average 70% full (FGW's own figures) then how does reducing capacity by at least 50% work? If same numbers of people wish to travel in first then some will be denied seats...

I don't follow your maths.   AIUI some trains are reduced from 2^ to 1^ FC carriages and the others from 2 to 1^; so to me that's a reduction of either 40% or a reduction of 25%.

That suggests to me that there'll only be a problem if that '70% average' is all full fare paying passengers at peak times  If a reasonable proportion of the 70% average are Advance fares, then they'll be 'yield managed' out of the equation.   As others have said if they get their calculations right the problem is just that a number of FC passengers won't get a seat for their briefcase...     

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 16, 2014, 11:42:09
... but if first is on average 70% full (FGW's own figures) then how does reducing capacity by at least 50% work? If same numbers of people wish to travel in first then some will be denied seats...

I don't follow your maths.   AIUI some trains are reduced from 2^ to 1^ FC carriages and the others from 2 to 1^; so to me that's a reduction of either 40% or a reduction of 25%.

That suggests to me that there'll only be a problem if that '70% average' is all full fare paying passengers at peak times  If a reasonable proportion of the 70% average are Advance fares, then they'll be 'yield managed' out of the equation.   As others have said if they get their calculations right the problem is just that a number of FC passengers won't get a seat for their briefcase...     

Paul

Ah, busted! My maths was correct but for some reason unknown I had in my head when I posted that the reduction was to a single first class carriage   ;D

Agree with your figures. I do hope they don't 'yield manage' first to such an extent that they start to justify removing it completely - I fail to see that many people are actually paying full fares, especially given the amount of seat reservations on many services which points towards (but by no means definitively) advance tickets


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 16, 2014, 12:24:46
At the time that this is likely to be a problem a good proportion of people will be on season tickets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 16, 2014, 12:29:49
That suggests to me that there'll only be a problem if that '70% average' is all full fare paying passengers at peak times  If a reasonable proportion of the 70% average are Advance fares, then they'll be 'yield managed' out of the equation.   As others have said if they get their calculations right the problem is just that a number of FC passengers won't get a seat for their briefcase...     

Paul

Q: what is 'yield managed'?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 16, 2014, 12:33:48

I suspect very few use Anytime First, and very few of those will be paying their own fare......one thing which should be stopped immediately if First class accomodation is being reduced is present/former railway staff using their free/almost free travel privileges to sit in First class - that will free up more space for paying customers.

Part of the terms and conditions for priv pass holders is that they give priority to full fare paying passengers and should give up their seat if there are no spare seats.

There are also a number of busy trains that fgw advise priv pass holders against usin.

Apart if you are retired and then those rules do not apply.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 16, 2014, 12:34:38

Q: what is 'yield managed'?


It refers to accurately predicting the number and price of the Advance fares to be made available in order to just fill the expected spare capacity.   In the extreme case, if the anticipated number of full price fares sold for a particular service leaves little or no spare capacity, you just don't offer any First Advance on that service at all...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on April 16, 2014, 12:46:01
Sorry if this is the wrong place, but I did a quick forum search and couldn't come up with any obvious results.

I've just bought some advance 1st class tickets for Melksham to Paddington in mid-May, changing at Chippenham onto what I assume to be a 125. The seat reservations are in coach L, both there and back, which is a new one on me. Are 1st class coaches being re-designated as "L for Lounge", or are trains being lengthened to eleven carriages, or have I missed something that's already happened?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on April 16, 2014, 12:51:08
Yield management can be a very effective way of making best use of resources - in the hotel business we're always encouraged to maximise our "RevPAR" which is "Revenue per available room".   Where we're "lucky" (!) is that we're in a competitive business and if we market in such a way that people don't even try to book if we're full, it doesn't generate the same degree of bad blood that a lack of fares at the lower prices does for our TOC.

You can also see yield management over a longer period in use on buses - fares for regular (paying) passenger journeys are pushed through the roof to maximise the income from concessions, even if the actual numbers travelling are reduced and the very people who some might wish to tempt to try the bus are discouraged off by price.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on April 16, 2014, 12:53:11
The seat reservations are in coach L, both there and back, which is a new one on me.

Coach L is the new name for the remaining full first class coach as one of the other coaches gets converted to standard.  Name change happens on 18th May, I believe?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 16, 2014, 13:04:35

Q: what is 'yield managed'?


It refers to accurately predicting the number and price of the Advance fares to be made available in order to just fill the expected spare capacity.   In the extreme case, if the anticipated number of full price fares sold for a particular service leaves little or no spare capacity, you just don't offer any First Advance on that service at all...

Paul


Thanks Paul.
But the problem as I see it is on peak time commuter services where muggins such as myself have paid ^000's for an annual ticket and there are more of us then there will be seats.  The sale of Advance tickets doesn't get adjusted according to season ticket competition I imagine(??).



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on April 16, 2014, 13:32:16
The seat reservations are in coach L, both there and back, which is a new one on me.


Coach L is the new name for the remaining full first class coach as one of the other coaches gets converted to standard.  Name change happens on 18th May, I believe?


Great stuff, thanks Graham. That makes some sort of sense, at least.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 16, 2014, 13:37:58

Q: what is 'yield managed'?


It refers to accurately predicting the number and price of the Advance fares to be made available in order to just fill the expected spare capacity.   In the extreme case, if the anticipated number of full price fares sold for a particular service leaves little or no spare capacity, you just don't offer any First Advance on that service at all...

Paul


Thanks Paul.
But the problem as I see it is on peak time commuter services where muggins such as myself have paid ^000's for an annual ticket and there are more of us then there will be seats.  The sale of Advance tickets doesn't get adjusted according to season ticket competition I imagine(??).



And equally it must be difficult to accurately bring any walk up or flexible fares such as open returns into the equation. Unlike airline yield management the railways have the added issue that they don't have an absolute fixed number of seats available and any number of people can just turn up and get on and expect to be seated. I'm not sure if this would be taken into account.

Going by the trains I travel on, first is going to be at best very cosy, at worst standing room only and these are what I would describe as off peak 'shoulder' services


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 16, 2014, 13:42:08

Q: what is 'yield managed'?


It refers to accurately predicting the number and price of the Advance fares to be made available in order to just fill the expected spare capacity.   In the extreme case, if the anticipated number of full price fares sold for a particular service leaves little or no spare capacity, you just don't offer any First Advance on that service at all...

Paul


Thanks Paul.
But the problem as I see it is on peak time commuter services where muggins such as myself have paid ^000's for an annual ticket and there are more of us then there will be seats.  The sale of Advance tickets doesn't get adjusted according to season ticket competition I imagine(??).



And equally it must be difficult to accurately bring any walk up or flexible fares such as open returns into the equation. Unlike airline yield management the railways have the added issue that they don't have an absolute fixed number of seats available and any number of people can just turn up and get on and expect to be seated. I'm not sure if this would be taken into account.

Going by the trains I travel on, first is going to be at best very cosy, at worst standing room only and these are what I would describe as off peak 'shoulder' services

Ditto.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on April 16, 2014, 13:48:03
I'm pretty sure that FGW are going to be very well aware of the potential overcrowding issues and will not want to upset high-paying customers to anything like the extent that they look elsewhere / move to the cheaper end of the train.  This is probably why there may be a dramatic reduction in Advance allocations, especially at the lower price brackets ...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 16, 2014, 13:53:49
I'm pretty sure that FGW are going to be very well aware of the potential overcrowding issues and will not want to upset high-paying customers to anything like the extent that they look elsewhere / move to the cheaper end of the train.  This is probably why there may be a dramatic reduction in Advance allocations, especially at the lower price brackets ...

Damage is already done IMO, as the number of season ticket holders > seats, before walkup/advance/used to work of the railways are even considered.

However, I can fix this problem for Maidenhead customers in 2mins.  Interested?
Make more than one HST stop at Maidenhead per hour*.  Simple.   ;)
If any of the through trains stopped to pick up passengers then we wouldn't all herd on to the same trains.

* yes I know, that apparently isn't possible.  But it was possible 2 years ago when we had more HST's (07.16), which got changed to Turbos overnight.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 16, 2014, 14:42:14
....and you'd all herd onto those extra (non-stop) HST's wouldn't you? :-) - which would defeat the object

Commuters are their own worst enemy sometimes....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BandHcommuter on April 16, 2014, 14:50:33
It may be that the relatively low first class yield on the Maidenhead to Paddington route (looks like less than ^10 per journey on an annual, of which they'd lose about a third on downgrade to standard) is considered by FGW as a worthy sacrifice provided they keep the longer distance full fare traffic?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on April 16, 2014, 16:35:42
It may be that the relatively low first class yield on the Maidenhead to Paddington route (looks like less than ^10 per journey on an annual, of which they'd lose about a third on downgrade to standard) is considered by FGW as a worthy sacrifice provided they keep the longer distance full fare traffic?

There could be a lot of admin coming up for FGW issuing refund vouchers from May to the end of the year though for those people who have annual First Class Seaons tickets only to find that First class isn't as they expect anymore and therefore need a refund


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 17, 2014, 08:54:09
Doubt it - as already suggested, they'll simply cut the number of Advance 1st tickets available - and expect 4 pax to take up 4 seats at a table....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 17, 2014, 09:05:02
Are 1st class coaches being re-designated as "L for Lounge"
ITYF it's "L for leather".

*gets coat*


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 17, 2014, 15:10:58
I thought that it was L for "limited space"


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on April 17, 2014, 15:18:59
Are 1st class coaches being re-designated as "L for Lounge"
ITYF it's "L for leather".

*gets coat*

I like it. Still only too glad to hand you your flippin' coat though!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 17, 2014, 16:19:45
As expected, taking a machete to the 1st class provision has proven to be a disaster. Furious passengers will be downgrading or getting into the car.

Having fewer 1st advances / weekend first may put casual travellers off rail, and commuters will not want to shell out for cramped conditions.

An easy stop gap solution would be to remove 1st class fares from Slough and Maidenhead. The HSTs shouldn't be stopping there in the first place (and the Thames Turbos/ all commuter stock should be 2nd class only). Also perhaps remove it from Reading.

First class is a product for InterCity commuters and businessmen / leisure travellers making a long journey (<1 hr). Not for people going for 25 minutes into work.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 17, 2014, 16:25:44
As expected, taking a machete to the 1st class provision has proven to be a disaster. Furious passengers will be downgrading or getting into the car.

I don't think you can say "has proven to be" when it hasn't even happened yet. Yes, as a first class passenger I'm concerned, but we all have to wait and see what actually happens.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on April 17, 2014, 17:11:32
As expected, taking a machete to the 1st class provision has proven to be a disaster. Furious passengers will be downgrading or getting into the car.

Having fewer 1st advances / weekend first may put casual travellers off rail, and commuters will not want to shell out for cramped conditions.

An easy stop gap solution would be to remove 1st class fares from Slough and Maidenhead. The HSTs shouldn't be stopping there in the first place (and the Thames Turbos/ all commuter stock should be 2nd class only). Also perhaps remove it from Reading.

First class is a product for InterCity commuters and businessmen / leisure travellers making a long journey (<1 hr). Not for people going for 25 minutes into work.

My sentiments exactly. Long distance 1st class travel has been hijacked by London commuters. Although this is hardly surprising, as ANY discussion about rail travel in Britain invariably centres around London commuters


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on April 17, 2014, 17:38:38
As expected, taking a machete to the 1st class provision has proven to be a disaster. Furious passengers will be downgrading or getting into the car.

Recent visit from the hyperbole fairy, Btline?  ::) :P


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on April 18, 2014, 07:55:09

There's a clear and unambigious solution to this - Privilege pass holders sit in Standard class only and book ahead in the same way as those on Advance tickets for a particular train, those trains that are highlighted as "busy" are excluded........that levels the playing field to some extent with paying customers whilst allowing those concerned to retain their benefits.


I think the vast majority of pass holders are standard class only.  There are very few FGW active 1st class passes now.

As expected, taking a machete to the 1st class provision has proven to be a disaster. Furious passengers will be downgrading or getting into the car.

Recent visit from the hyperbole fairy, Btline?  ::) :P

I thought it was the hyperbole troll?  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 18, 2014, 11:06:51
Recent visit from the hyperbole fairy, Btline?  ::) :P

I don't bother responding to him anymore.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: tom m on April 18, 2014, 11:13:18

I think the vast majority of pass holders are standard class only.  There are very few FGW active 1st class passes now.

I would agree, I think only very senior people get first class priv now, anyone who started employment after BR privatisation will generally have a standard class priv. I would suggest that most people traveling in first on a priv be retired BR staff and as time goes on this number will gradually reduce.

The Thames valley commuters are getting some stick for the stops made at slough and maidenhead, but expecting these commuters to get onto already crowded turbos is unreasonable, maybe this will change with crossrail but the spare capacity is not there to expect them to use the turbo services.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 18, 2014, 19:11:25
Just done a calculation of fares for the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington train via Bristol (Super Off Peak Service) and the 06:17 Taunton - Bristol via Westbury (Peak Service)

How much would it cost to go on the 21:29 in First Class? ^175.00
How much would it cost to go on the 21:29 in Standard Class? ^42.00

How much would it cost to go on the 06:17 in First Class? ^175.00
How much would it cost to go on the 06:17 in Standard Class? ^113.00

So in the Peak, the differential increase between First and Standard Class is 55% not too far off the previous Fare + 50% Difference of BR Days.

In the Super Off Peak, the differential increase between First and Standard Class is 317% :o :-X I'm actually shocked at that. Assuming we look at the logic of a First Super Off Peak Single vs. Standard Super Off Peak Single + 55% you should pay ^65.10 to use First Class. NOT the ^175.00 fare that currently would be sold...!

Now how many of you would pay ^175.00 to sit in this carriage on the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington Train with seldom done ticket checks no ticket checks between Taunton and Bath Spa, Get gatecrashed with drunken idiots from Bristol and beyond (Likely Weston on a bad day) who don't know when to stop drinking and have the first world problem of having to go to the buffet to get your refreshments?

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M_ofXZDGIJw/U1BL5YKRj1I/AAAAAAAAJl0/CoFFNqz4rx8/w983-h553-no/20140417_224534.jpg)

How many would pay ^65.10 to sit in the same carriage on 21:29?

My answers are no and yes retrospectively... :-X :-\ ::)

Prices are PUBLIC Fares (no railcard discounts etc)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 19, 2014, 10:16:17
I am surprised that there are not more cheaper off peak 1st fares.

East Coast have lots of cheaper fares, better free food and drink and they've increased usage freeing up seats in the - often packed - second class.

What do FGW do? Just axe a carriage of 1st class.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 19, 2014, 11:13:01
Coz the DfT told them to?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on April 19, 2014, 11:54:20
I am surprised that there are not more cheaper off peak 1st fares.

East Coast have lots of cheaper fares, better free food and drink and they've increased usage freeing up seats in the - often packed - second class.

What do FGW do? Just axe a carriage of 1st class.
East Coast may have lots of cheap Advance Purchase fares, but the walk up fares are fairly similarly priced to FGW.
Taunton-London Paddington: Cheapest Walk-Up First Class fare: ^203
Retford-London King's Cross (A similar distance to Taunton): Cheapest Walk-Up First Class fare: ^237 (Cheaper fares available by travelling with Hull Trains)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 19, 2014, 17:16:19
I agree that walk up first class off peak tickets are unduly expensive.
Steerage fares in the off peak are significantly cheaper than in the peak, yet first class is often the same.

Not certain that a first class single from Taunton to London is over ^200 though ? I make that journey regularly and thought it was about ^170.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on April 19, 2014, 17:22:13
I was comparing returns as they're generally much better value, sorry I didn't make that clear.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 19, 2014, 20:35:58
Coz the DfT told them to?

There may be a pattern developing.  The new Greater Anglia direct award franchise also includes reduction of first class provision, in their case by replacement of the first class in 7 catering vehicles with standard.  The press release says something about 24 FC taken out, 44 Standard in.

It may be that what they do on the ECML now is no guide to the future...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 19, 2014, 21:33:47
All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on April 19, 2014, 22:13:55
All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP's won't we have extra capacity by then?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on April 19, 2014, 22:44:41
All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP's won't we have extra capacity by then?

Yes, they'll be additional capacity, especially if the signalling system is upgraded to ERTMS but I'm not personally convinced the IEP's will provided the massive increase in capacity everyone is expecting.  It won't guarantee everyone travelling via Paddington in the peak a seat.  Once all the work is completed I don't think it'll provide enough of an increase in capacity past the next 10 years and when the trains return to being overcrowded what is the next solution?  There doesn't seem to be any long term plan, there is no room for growth past what the IEP will offer.

Undoubtably though, users of the CrossRail services will see the biggest increase in capacity.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 20, 2014, 00:04:45
Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Sorry if you think that's an exaggeration and that I'm being a "fairy", but I think it will happen.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on April 20, 2014, 08:05:44
Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Alternatively it is an honest attempt to do something to address the capacity issues in advance of the IEPs becoming available.  This government is not normally accused of discrimination against the wealthy.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 20, 2014, 09:20:37
Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)


I think the peak hours only system has been proved to work well. Unfortunately it wasn't cheap enough for the government so the latest versions have done away with the hard shoulder completely, and are, in the eyes of many people including the motoring organisations, likely to be proved to be very dangerous.

It's one thing breaking down on a very congested slow running motorway with lower speed limits in place and another doing so when the motorway is free flowing and the national speed limit in force.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 20, 2014, 09:39:55
Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Alternatively it is an honest attempt to do something to address the capacity issues in advance of the IEPs becoming available.  This government is not normally accused of discrimination against the wealthy.

It may be an honest attempt, it may just be window dressing, either way its a pretty feeble & unimaginative effort to address an issue which has been ongoing & getting worse for many years.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on April 20, 2014, 10:30:21
Forgive me if this has been posted previously,  but at 27 pages long....

Anyway, there's been a staff briefing about the new 1st class config on HSTs. Here's the gist:

Electric door on the composite 1st/std coach separating the two classes. It will be push button operated rather than pressure pad on the floor.

New, more comfortable, head rests with some kind of movable side rest. Mention of a similar arrangement to that of headrests on Beoing aircraft.

Privacy screens between the backs of groups of seats.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on April 20, 2014, 10:35:39
By the way, of course we won't have enough capacity in 10/20/50/100 years if passenger figures keep growing. That's a fact of life. But how can you plan for 50 years time? Look at how the railway and country has changed since the 1955 modernisation plan! Back then Britain was a very different place to now in terms of industry, people in work, finances etc...

I think the Network Rail RUSs take the right approach to long term planning.  For example they talk about schemes that aren't viable now or even in 10 years for the GWML, but which might be viable if things carry on the way they are by 2020.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on April 20, 2014, 10:38:21
All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP's won't we have extra capacity by then?
With IEP, yes extra capacity on the electric routes (2+8 IC125 to 9-car new trains), but some diesel routes will see SHORTER trains with LESS capacity (2+8 IC125 to 5-car new trains). Yes, the 5-cars will sometimes run in pairs to give 10-cars (with the same capacity as the 9-car 'electric' units, due to having two kitchens (for 1st class passengers only, judging by the current draft layouts) and four cabs), but as far as I can tell they haven't ordered nearly enough 5-cars to have many 10-car formations.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 20, 2014, 10:53:14

New, more comfortable, head rests with some kind of movable side rest. Mention of a similar arrangement to that of headrests on Beoing aircraft.
How about some flat beds?  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 20, 2014, 12:23:54
Electric door on the composite 1st/std coach separating the two classes. It will be push button operated rather than pressure pad on the floor.

Oooh, I hope this is a sliding door & not an swing/hinged door then - the Crossrail trains have a hinged door separating the vestibule & 1st class seats that swings into the 1st accommodation & will hinder those sat in seats the other side....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Network SouthEast on April 21, 2014, 22:03:48

Oooh, I hope this is a sliding door & not an swing/hinged door then - the Crossrail trains have a hinged door separating the vestibule & 1st class seats that swings into the 1st accommodation & will hinder those sat in seats the other side....
They'll be sliding doors.

By the way, I think you're referring to the Thameslink trains internal layout, not Crossrail.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2014, 23:56:29
How about some flat beds?  ;D
Don't give them ideas as the 'logical' thing to do is to convert the overhead luggage space into flat beds to fit even more people into standard.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 22, 2014, 06:55:01
Yes, thanks, of course I am!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on April 23, 2014, 10:23:25
Forgive me if this has been posted previously,  but at 27 pages long....

Anyway, there's been a staff briefing about the new 1st class config on HSTs. Here's the gist:

Electric door on the composite 1st/std coach separating the two classes. It will be push button operated rather than pressure pad on the floor.

New, more comfortable, head rests with some kind of movable side rest. Mention of a similar arrangement to that of headrests on Beoing aircraft.

Privacy screens between the backs of groups of seats.



Thanks for the info. Do you know if the leather is being retained?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on April 24, 2014, 07:56:52
At Maidenhead yesterday, and I've never seen this before, they were stopping people without First Class tickets going towards the First Class end of the platform for the 7.08 train.. Having also had a proper ticket check on the 7.59 departure last week (including actually moving standard class ticket holders all the way to standard class, not just the nearest vestibule), maybe finally someone has taken notice of what we've been telling them for years..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 24, 2014, 08:16:22
Yep - 'twas indeed a miracle worthy of Easter week!   :D
Watching the line, a lot of people either got turned back or thought worse of trying it before reaching that point.
My only gripe was that one of the repeat offenders (travels everyday in first on a Standard - never been fined) is on holiday this week   :'( :'(


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 24, 2014, 10:35:43
THey might repeat it in a while....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 24, 2014, 11:35:30
Yep - 'twas indeed a miracle worthy of Easter week!   :D
Watching the line, a lot of people either got turned back or thought worse of trying it before reaching that point.
My only gripe was that one of the repeat offenders (travels everyday in first on a Standard - never been fined) is on holiday this week   :'( :'(

I can recommend discretely pointing this individual out to the train manager sometime - they're usually quite responsive to such information!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 24, 2014, 12:02:49
Yep - 'twas indeed a miracle worthy of Easter week!   :D
Watching the line, a lot of people either got turned back or thought worse of trying it before reaching that point.
My only gripe was that one of the repeat offenders (travels everyday in first on a Standard - never been fined) is on holiday this week   :'( :'(

I can recommend discretely pointing this individual out to the train manager sometime - they're usually quite responsive to such information!

It has been done.  Several times, and not just by me.  He still just pays the upgrade when challenged.
As a technical question, isn't that option always available to a Standard class ticket holder found to be in First?  ie. they have a ticket and can pay for the upgrade?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on April 24, 2014, 12:20:42
...He still just pays the upgrade when challenged.
As a technical question, isn't that option always available to a Standard class ticket holder found to be in First?  ie. they have a ticket and can pay for the upgrade?


Definitely not supposed to wait in first class then pay only when asked though.   In a penalty fare area it's supposed to result in a PF being charged irrespective of the standard fare already being paid - and that is the normal practice if 'caught' by revenue staff on SWT and SN AFAICS.

Part of NR Conditions of Carriage 39 also includes an extra rule specifically for season ticket holders though:

Quote
If you have a standard class Season Ticket, you may only travel in first class accommodation (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage) if:
(a) the difference between the full single fare for first class accommodation and the full single fare for standard class accommodation has been paid before your journey starts;
etc etc...

AIUI that is there to deal specifically with the season ticket holder who just chances it - especially on DOO services...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on April 24, 2014, 12:44:43

It has been done.  Several times, and not just by me.  He still just pays the upgrade when challenged.
As a technical question, isn't that option always available to a Standard class ticket holder found to be in First?  ie. they have a ticket and can pay for the upgrade?

Ah, one of those types....!! I don't see there is an awful lot the train ops can do except put them on some kind of blacklist, but then these same people would probably cry about some human rights or another if that happened!

As far as I know train managers offering an 'upgrade' are basically doing the recipient of said upgrade a favour - they should be paying for a full first class fare


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 25, 2014, 16:57:42
Here's an idea.

Why don't FGW switch the single seat side of the carriage to be individual seats (and a smaller table)? It would much up alignment but you could cram a few more seats in. Groups still have the tables of 4, and having individual seats might dissuade single passengers trying to take up a table.

Any idea how many extra seats could be crammed in?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on April 25, 2014, 17:57:14
I believe that's the intention. Currently single passengers have no alternative but to take up a table, so it's not the case that we are "trying to".   (OK, I know there is currently a single seat in the buffet car.)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on April 25, 2014, 23:31:45
There are some mock up pictures over on the Rail UK forum here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1775239&postcount=138 (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1775239&postcount=138)
(I hope posting that link is OK.)

That would appear to show that at least some of the '+1' seats are now individual rather than at tables. I don't think that it would have been done with increasing capacity in mind but it would allow more privacy for individuals. If you keep the same number of seats it should be possible to maintain good seat-to-window alignment even when altering the seating layout like this.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on April 26, 2014, 19:22:59
Having just booked seats in First Class on both East Midlands Trains an XC, I am disappointed not to be able to choose forward or reverse facing (something which has not been possible for several years) but I was faced with 'Window' 'Window View' (whatever that means) and 'Aisle'.  On XC I have ended up with Aisle anyway and will be even more annoyed if I am made to face the rear of the train having forked out for the First Class.

I'm posting this here, because the layouts indicated above suggest ranks of single seats facing in one direction - in itself not a problem - but I hope FGW will maintain the customer-friendly practice of allowing choice of which way the seat faces. It makes a difference to me as I suffer travel sickness at high speed when not facing the destination.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 26, 2014, 19:43:24
All single XC 1st class face in onedirection, andasthey can't besure in which direction (Coach A oe E/F leading, can't offer facing/back to direction of travel.

With 1st seating in more trhan one coach, FGW can ensurethat singleseats face both directions - and have no excuse for not doing so.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on April 26, 2014, 19:44:31
Having just booked seats in First Class on both East Midlands Trains an XC, I am disappointed not to be able to choose forward or reverse facing (something which has not been possible for several years) but I was faced with 'Window' 'Window View' (whatever that means) and 'Aisle'.  On XC I have ended up with Aisle anyway and will be even more annoyed if I am made to face the rear of the train having forked out for the First Class.

I'm posting this here, because the layouts indicated above suggest ranks of single seats facing in one direction - in itself not a problem - but I hope FGW will maintain the customer-friendly practice of allowing choice of which way the seat faces. It makes a difference to me as I suffer travel sickness at high speed when not facing the destination.

XC presumable don't do it because of the number of reversals at Birmingham.  You did not say where you are going, but with Derby to Reading there is always a reversal at Birmingham, with Derby to Bristol there is mostly a reversal at Birmingham depending on the route taken between Kings Norton and New Street.  So you might have a forward facing seat for only part of the journey.  Also the changes mean that XC are not always the same way round, like the FGW HST's. It depends on the journey they have done before. It is just too difficult to work out which way round the train would be even if there was not a reversal during the journey.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on April 26, 2014, 22:14:19
Thanks ellendune.  I know why XC say they do (don't) do it, but FGW also reverse at Bristol TM on the Cardiff-Portsmouth service and still offer an option which can be worked out as the direction depends on where the train starts. Just to complete the picture I wanted to go from Bristol to Leeds which has no reversal normally.

I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on April 26, 2014, 22:21:24
Thanks ellendune.  I know why XC say they do (don't) do it, but FGW also reverse at Bristol TM on the Cardiff-Portsmouth service and still offer an option which can be worked out as the direction depends on where the train starts. Just to complete the picture I wanted to go from Bristol to Leeds which has no reversal normally.

I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.

Bristol Leeds does sometimes reverse if the train takes the Camp Hill route between New Street and Kings Norton.  This maintains route knowledge so that XC trains can bypass New Street in the event of a problem.  It also avoids delays due to stopping services via the University.  It is this irregularity that leads to the problem.  The Portsmouth Cardiff trains always reverse at Bristol. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on April 27, 2014, 00:00:52
The biggest problem is that even if a service doesn't reverse en route, because of the nature of the XC network the service could turn up with the First Class carriage at either end of the train and therefore internally either way round. Unlike FGW HSTs which have both xF and xB seats in First Class XC have individually numbered seats and in First Class on Voyagers there is a significant bias towards seats facing in one direction. (Back to travel in leading, facing to travel if trailing.) There is no way for XC to accurately offer Forwards or Back seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on April 27, 2014, 07:13:56
I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.
I can't travel in reverse direction of travel without feeling a bit queasy are a while so you aren't alone. One of the reasons why I go via London when heading North rather than using XC.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on April 27, 2014, 07:28:01
I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.
I can't travel in reverse direction of travel without feeling a bit queasy are a while so you aren't alone. One of the reasons why I go via London when heading North rather than using XC.

I have no idea on figures clearly, but I travel with several people who prefer to sit facing and for them it is an important consideration when making the journey.  Thankfully I can sit facing in either direction and in someways I quite like sitting with my back in the direction of travel so I can see items of interest as they disappear in the distance.

Our varied preferences do cause some amusement at places like Gloucester where our group of four all get up and play musical chairs before the train reverses!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on April 27, 2014, 11:21:29
Pretty sure ATW offer direction on their reservations, despite nearly all their long-distance routes including at least one reversal. When I had my first class breakfast trip from Chester to Cardiff though my reservation was in a backwards-facing seat, despite me asking for forward-facing. I guess the system didn't account for the reversal at Chester.

I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.
I can't travel in reverse direction of travel without feeling a bit queasy are a while so you aren't alone. One of the reasons why I go via London when heading North rather than using XC.

I have no idea on figures clearly, but I travel with several people who prefer to sit facing and for them it is an important consideration when making the journey.  Thankfully I can sit facing in either direction and in someways I quite like sitting with my back in the direction of travel so I can see items of interest as they disappear in the distance.

Our varied preferences do cause some amusement at places like Gloucester where our group of four all get up and play musical chairs before the train reverses!
I play 'musical chairs' at both Carmarthen and Swansea on occassion, to keep facing forwards. When I am forced to travel backwards, I don't feel unwell it just feels odd.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on April 27, 2014, 16:21:38
I always travel backwards (and you'd know why if you've had the misfortune to be in a high speed crash). However, I appreciate others with motion sickness can't comfortably do this - my mother for one.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 27, 2014, 17:42:39
I've seen a 'mockup' document of what First Class will [or should] look like come the changes. I was given the opportunity to see it as a Staff Member knows I use First Class often and thought I would be interested. I had to rush to catch a train so didn't get to see the whole document, But as a summary this is what it contained:

HST Formation for Micro Buffet:

43 - TGS - TS - TSD - TS - TS - TSMB - TC - TF - 43

HST Formation for Full Size Buffet:

43 - TGS - TS - TSD - TS - TS - TS - TFRB - TF - 43

  • 43 = Power Car (The Locomotive)
  • TGS = Trailer Guard Standard Class (Coach A with Train Managers Office and Bicycle Loading)
  • TSD = Trailer Standard Class Disabled (Coach C with Disabled Wheelchair Spaces and Accessible Toilet)
  • TSMB = Trailer Standard Class with Micro Buffet
  • TFRB = Trailer First Class with Buffet & Kicthen
  • TC = Trailer Composite (Mix of First and Standard Class)
  • TF = Trailer First Class

On the Micro Buffet sets. There will be half a carriage of Standard Class between the Buffet and First Class.

In First Class itself:

  • A selection of Individual Airline Seats with fixed Table.
  • Glass Privacy Screen between tables for 4 Seats; Extending to cover just the seats closest to the window. Slightly pointless IMHO but does make it look somewhat smart
  • Seats have 'pointy ears' headrests which I believe would be to allow you to rest your head against if you wanted to dose
  • Refresh of toilets in First Class (Practically no difference to the current layout and continued use of those awful rotating towels to dry your hands)
  • New seating colour
  • New Curtains at the windows
  • POSSIBLE realignment of Power Sockets - The document was Black and White so difficult to ascertain
  • POSSIBLE reinstatement of Toilet at the end of Coach H (Currently a Trolley Store Room and Water Boiler) - Document implied it was Coach H as the carriage interchange doors were closed, suggesting it to be behind the power car

All in all it does look quite a smart little layout. My only gripes is that it doesn't make clear if there will be a Wheelchair Space in First Class or a Disabled Toilet either.

I'm also wondering why the chose to put the Micro Buffet next to the TC. Why not make the Micro Buffet a TCMB (Trailer Composite Micro Buffet) as this would allow another full Standard Class carriage?!?! Ok you wouldn't get too much Standard Class seating in a TCMB but it would be at the provision of a further full Standard Class carriage (Possibly made from the conversion of a TF to a TS)

It almost certainly looks like there will be no Quiet Carriage either. I'll try and get another nose at the document next time I'm at the station that allowed me to see it :)

Edit: Having only just spotted broadgage' post below which he pointed out there were 2+9 Carriages in one of the formations. I have edited this accordingly as this was not correct. Both Micro Buffet or Full Buffet sets should be 2+8


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 27, 2014, 17:53:42
I always travel backwards (and you'd know why if you've had the misfortune to be in a high speed crash). However, I appreciate others with motion sickness can't comfortably do this - my mother for one.

Agreed. I prefer to travel backwards if I can :)

As a side discussion I always feel nervous about using a bathroom onboard a moving Coach (i.e. National Express, Berrys Superfast, Megabus, First Greyhound etc) if the toilet faces the direction of travel. There are a select few coaches that have the toilet so you're backwards or side on to the direction of travel... If anyone has used a coach toilet facing the direction of travel; and had the experience where the coach has had to brake violently will understand my concerns...!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 27, 2014, 18:04:57
Agreed. I prefer to travel backwards if I can :)

You're just determined to be awkward, young trout!  ;) :D ;D

I've seen a 'mockup' document of what First Class will [or should] look like come the changes. I was given the opportunity to see it as a Staff Member knows I use First Class often and thought I would be interested. I had to rush to catch a train so didn't get to see the whole document, But as a summary this is what it contained ...

Many thanks for posting such a comprehensive summary, and from such a brief glimpse, thetrout!  ;)

My only concern, though, is over this:

Quote
Seats have 'pointy ears' headrests which I believe would be to allow you to rest your head against if you wanted to dose

I'd advise against the administering of any substances on board a train - it's clearly not right.  :o ::) ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 27, 2014, 18:41:47
You're just determined to be awkward, young trout!  ;) :D ;D

I couldn't possibly comment... ::) ;D ;)

Quote
Many thanks for posting such a comprehensive summary, and from such a brief glimpse, thetrout!  ;)

This is the downside to a Photographic Memory... :-X

Quote
I'd advise against the administering of any substances on board a train - it's clearly not right.  :o ::) ;D

I disagree... What is the point in getting a complimentary coffee from the Buffet if you can't drink it...? Just to look at it so it can sit there all smug on the table mocking you?! :P ;) ::)

Although if you look on the keyboard where the 'S' key is in proximity to the 'Z' key... You might understand how tiredness due to lack of caffeine may cause that unfortunate typo ;) ;D :D

It's raining outside... I'll get my coat I think... :P ;D ::) pobodys nerfect! ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on April 27, 2014, 19:00:20
The first formation listed by the famous Trout would seem to be 2+9 , I thought the intention was to keep the same total number of vehicles, but downgrade first class provision.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on April 27, 2014, 19:12:07
As a side discussion I always feel nervous about using a bathroom onboard a moving Coach (i.e. National Express, Berrys Superfast, Megabus, First Greyhound etc) if the toilet faces the direction of travel.
Having seldom traveled by coach (never comfortably, normally too little legroom and once as a 'stowaway' on the steps outside the toilet on a rail-replacement bus) I cannot see how one can use a toilet at all onboard a moving coach. In my experience, coaches have seat belts and (unlike buses) do not allow standing passengers. The latter is evidenced by lack of grab rails for standees to hold onto and I think once or twice I've noticed a sign giving a number of seated passengers and "nil standees". Given that the law says seat belts, if fitted, must be fastened while the vehicle is moving, just how is one supposed to make it to and from the toilet? And without grab-rails, how many have fallen down the steps?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on April 27, 2014, 19:36:31
So if there are some individual seats, how many First Class seats are FGW losing per set?
It can't be that many now, which makes me feel a little better about the changes (but still against overall).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on April 27, 2014, 19:46:55
I accept that I am probably in a small, uncommercially significant minority.
I can't travel in reverse direction of travel without feeling a bit queasy are a while so you aren't alone. One of the reasons why I go via London when heading North rather than using XC.

I accept that it is important to a significant number of people.  I just don't see how XC could practically achieve it without both rearranging the seating in first class and a an IT solution that could keep track of the orientation of each unit and adjust the bookings accordingly.  Even then there would be problems on some services due to the change in direction. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on April 27, 2014, 22:47:39
I'm also wondering why the chose to put the Micro Buffet next to the TC. Why not make the Micro Buffet a TCMB (Trailer Composite Micro Buffet) as this would allow another full Standard Class carriage?!?! Ok you wouldn't get too much Standard Class seating in a TCMB but it would be at the provision of a further full Standard Class carriage (Possibly made from the conversion of a TF to a TS)

Probably so they don't need to send all the mini-buffets off to be refurbished again.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 18, 2014, 14:29:05
Well I've just gone to book some First Advance with FGW and have also noticed that the First Advance fares have increased significantly in price...!

Yes I'm aware of the subject to availability and Advance fares are quota controlled etc.

The trains I use are often empty in First Class. Where on some journeys I was paying ^22.00 for a First Advance, I am now being offered a ^49.50 fare! ::) So I can only see this as an increase, rather than because of the reduction of First Class seating. Irrelevant of whether there is 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 or 0.5 First Class Carriages. It makes no difference if you're the only person fish sat in it!

It's going to work out cheaper at this rate to purchase the FSR (First Off Peak Return) which is pretty darn expensive and not something I want to start having to do. But the flexibility may pay off in the long run I guess... ::)

Nicely done folks. Nicely done... :-\ :-[ :-X


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on May 18, 2014, 15:36:41
Sadly Trout this was always going to be the way it would go with the reduction in seating starting to bite over the coming months as carriages are withdrawn for modification. Quotas of lower price First Advance fares would be reduced leading to an increase in the cost of what you are likely to pay for First Advance tickets.

Does anyone know if FGW have actually increased Advance fares from today? I know the 10 percent offer if you buy direct via the FGW has now ended which has lead to the increase that was imposed last year on those who didn't buy via the FGW website now applying to everyone.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 18, 2014, 15:39:25
Note that 1st class has all been relettered overnight into K & L rather than F & G, so the seats 'available' may have reduced, even if they're still physically there for the time being?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on May 19, 2014, 07:53:08
And the quiet carriage stickers have been removed as well.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 19, 2014, 10:12:53
And the quiet carriage stickers have been removed as well.

Not across the board so far, there's still plenty floating around this morning with quiet carriage stickers...

Also a coach M on those sets that have a full size buffet - with the old coach F being the new K. I expect M is temporary and will be removed as the conversions are completed


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on May 20, 2014, 20:46:14
7.08 this morning.. Maidenhead to Paddington.. The trolley came through first class with the complimentary food and drink.. I cannot remember the last time that happened (if ever) on that train.. No ticket check though.. shame.. ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on May 21, 2014, 09:54:48
7.08 this morning.. Maidenhead to Paddington.. The trolley came through first class with the complimentary food and drink.. I cannot remember the last time that happened (if ever) on that train.. No ticket check though.. shame.. ::)

And again this morning!  Incredible! 
No ticket check, and no quiet carriage.  But its a good start.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2014, 16:23:34
Not sure, but it might have something to do with the shake-up of the Trolley service at Oxford with some of the Rail Gourmet staff now working for FGW as dedicated customer hosts.  I thought that was predominantly for the 180s, but perhaps the HST catering arrangements have changed a little, too?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on May 21, 2014, 16:40:16
7.08 this morning.. Maidenhead to Paddington.. The trolley came through first class with the complimentary food and drink.. I cannot remember the last time that happened (if ever) on that train.. No ticket check though.. shame.. ::)

And again this morning!  Incredible! 
No ticket check, and no quiet carriage.  But its a good start.

Sadly no trolley and no ticket check on the 7.59 departure this morning


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on May 21, 2014, 19:22:37
Well I've just gone to book some First Advance with FGW and have also noticed that the First Advance fares have increased significantly in price...!

Yes I'm aware of the subject to availability and Advance fares are quota controlled etc.

The trains I use are often empty in First Class. Where on some journeys I was paying ^22.00 for a First Advance, I am now being offered a ^49.50 fare! ::) So I can only see this as an increase, rather than because of the reduction of First Class seating. Irrelevant of whether there is 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 or 0.5 First Class Carriages. It makes no difference if you're the only person fish sat in it!

It's going to work out cheaper at this rate to purchase the FSR (First Off Peak Return) which is pretty darn expensive and not something I want to start having to do. But the flexibility may pay off in the long run I guess... ::)

Nicely done folks. Nicely done... :-\ :-[ :-X

This was always my reservation (no pun intended).

I know a lot of people whose opinion of rail travel in has ben changed for the better thanks to the cheap, off-peak 1st deals (especially after I had made them aware).

There are going to be a lot of disappointed people as these fares vanish


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on May 21, 2014, 21:14:49
Not sure, but it might have something to do with the shake-up of the Trolley service at Oxford with some of the Rail Gourmet staff now working for FGW as dedicated customer hosts.  I thought that was predominantly for the 180s, but perhaps the HST catering arrangements have changed a little, too?
Are the buffets finally being used on 180s or is still a trolley service?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2014, 21:16:35
Still just a trolley service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IanL on May 21, 2014, 22:44:28
Funny that II, I make most of my journeys on the 180s these days and I have only ever seen a trolley being removed from the train after arrival at Oxford from Paddington, I have never seen a trolley west of Oxford (even when there is room to wheel it down the train).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 22, 2014, 13:51:51
Funny that II, I make most of my journeys on the 180s these days and I have only ever seen a trolley being removed from the train after arrival at Oxford from Paddington, I have never seen a trolley west of Oxford (even when there is room to wheel it down the train).

That's surprising.  Most of the 180s down to Worcester and Great Malvern have a trolley service throughout (and have had pretty much since their re-introduction), and though sometimes there is a change of staff/trolley at Oxford, it's more often a case of the existing trolley being topped up with stock at Oxford.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: charles_uk on May 22, 2014, 16:19:58
Funny that II, I make most of my journeys on the 180s these days and I have only ever seen a trolley being removed from the train after arrival at Oxford from Paddington, I have never seen a trolley west of Oxford (even when there is room to wheel it down the train).

That's surprising.  Most of the 180s down to Worcester and Great Malvern have a trolley service throughout (and have had pretty much since their re-introduction), and though sometimes there is a change of staff/trolley at Oxford, it's more often a case of the existing trolley being topped up with stock at Oxford.

Until this week, the trolley was always removed from the 1552 PAD:WOS at Oxford (and often the ramp wasn't ready which didn't help with the numbers waiting to get on). This week the trolley has remained on - albeit stationary in 1st class - and, instead, there has simply been what looks like additional water put on board at Oxford.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: eightf48544 on May 24, 2014, 22:15:12
Think it's the right place.

ian Walmsley has an interesting article in june's Modern railways comparing the First Class offerings of various TOCs. Makes an interesting comaprison with a Cunard Cruise at ^3.47 per hour and Virgin from Manchester London at ^191.93 per hour 

Now for my query is Pendelino First worth an Extra ^29.50 over Standard for Stockport via London to Taplow. (^46 - 16.50)

Vigin via Reading give a ridiculous fare of ^204 for First on a Vomiter ^26 standard. I'm not sure i even want to do Stockport to Reading in Standard on a Vomiter!

Hoping to go To Huddersfield via GC to Halifax (OK some track bashing but an advance from KX is only ^14.XX) Is it worth  looking at 180 first as standard is not bad apart from underfloor engine.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on May 24, 2014, 22:45:17
It won't be Virgin to Reading from Stockport. That's Arriva CrossCountry.

I'd suggest any further queries regarding fares and routes you'd like to take should be made in a new topic on the Fare's Fair board. Don't forget date, time, number travelling and whether any Railcards are held.  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on May 28, 2014, 08:17:57
And the quiet carriage stickers have been removed as well.

Not across the board so far, there's still plenty floating around this morning with quiet carriage stickers...

Also a coach M on those sets that have a full size buffet - with the old coach F being the new K. I expect M is temporary and will be removed as the conversions are completed


I can happily report that Coach L on the 7.08 Maidenhead-->Padd (5am ish from Worcester) was defined as a Quiet Carriage.  After two weeks of 'noisy' Coach L this was nice.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 08:34:01
And the quiet carriage stickers have been removed as well.

Not across the board so far, there's still plenty floating around this morning with quiet carriage stickers...

Also a coach M on those sets that have a full size buffet - with the old coach F being the new K. I expect M is temporary and will be removed as the conversions are completed


I can happily report that Coach L on the 7.08 Maidenhead-->Padd (5am ish from Worcester) was defined as a Quiet Carriage.  After two weeks of 'noisy' Coach L this was nice.


Don't get too used to it! Travelling yesterday morning, the only quiet carriage announcement was made for coach A in standard. The quiet coach stickers seem to now be disappearing rapidly from first class.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on May 28, 2014, 09:05:32
But why on earth would they do this?!?!   It is just stupid.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 09:28:49
But why on earth would they do this?!?!   It is just stupid.

Indeed it is! I have abandoned first class for the time being, yesterday morning the standard class quiet carriage was actually rather more peaceful than it's former first class counterpart. They seem intent on driving as many people out of first as possible...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on May 28, 2014, 10:22:50
I suspect that now MPs can not use first at the public expense, that pressure to remove it entirely will grow.
Wont happen overnight of course of course, but a little at a time.
The next logical step on HSTs will be to reduce first class from a one and a half coaches to just one.
"people find it confusing to have first and standard in the same coach"
"first complain that the half coach was regularly invaded by standard"

Followed by the abolition of any catering beyond a trolley.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 28, 2014, 10:49:31
........looks to me like the law of unintended consequences is having a major effect on what was on the face of it an honest attempt to improve capacity - 1st class customers across the piece are going to suffer and the "premium" service being paid for is being degraded in a number of ways.....perhaps a consequence of taking the easy option?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 28, 2014, 11:54:10
Possibly worth waiting until the conversion work is complete, before you all decide it was a terrible mistake.  In the meantime, there's bound to be a little disruption to the provision of first class whilst vehicles go in for refurbishment, as there was when the original refresh took place towards the end of the last decade.  As for taking the 'easy option', surely that would have been to do nothing and watch standard class crowding get worse and worse (with half empty first class carriages on the vast majority of trains) until the IEP's arrive?

Personally, I look forward to seeing the new First Class layout (and will comment good or bad then, not now) hoping it to be an improvement on the current service with free wi-fi long overdue!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on May 28, 2014, 12:59:15
IMO, the reduction in first class IS a mistake, and I DO feel able to judge this without waiting for the work to be complete.
No matter how wonderfull the conversion work may be, it is still a substantial reduction in first class capacity which is often well filled on rush hour services.

It seems to me that the Reading commuters are the main problem, with many choosing to stand on an HST rather than sit on a slower service, and then complaining about "having to stand"
It would appear that the answer is to provide a couple of special services that serve ONLY Reading, and to stop fewer long distance trains at Reading. Platform capacity at Reading should not be a problem with the recent improvements.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 28, 2014, 13:21:31
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 13:21:55
IMO, the reduction in first class IS a mistake, and I DO feel able to judge this without waiting for the work to be complete.
No matter how wonderfull the conversion work may be, it is still a substantial reduction in first class capacity which is often well filled on rush hour services.

It seems to me that the Reading commuters are the main problem, with many choosing to stand on an HST rather than sit on a slower service, and then complaining about "having to stand"
It would appear that the answer is to provide a couple of special services that serve ONLY Reading, and to stop fewer long distance trains at Reading. Platform capacity at Reading should not be a problem with the recent improvements.

I would fully agree that Reading is a major problem for long distance services. During the improvement works at Reading the 19.15 (iirc) to Swansea was non-stopping Reading, first stop Swindon. Whilst still busy, it was acceptably so and not the usual crush loading found at that time of day. Incidentally FGW were planning a 19.12 departure for Swansea, first stop BPW, had trains, staff, paths etc available but DfT vetoed it according to a FGW train manager I spoke to.

The reduction in first capacity in my humble opinion will not really address any capacity issues. Notably this change appears to have been imposed having had no consultation with paying customers or the taxpayer who has largely funded the forthcoming conversion.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 13:30:14
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have a few times, especially at weekends, but isn't that the whole point? Pay more = get more space?! They would've done better making more cheap advance fares available and promoting them properly - the only cost involved then would be a small change to the booking systems and a bit of targeted marketing rather than spending millions polishing 40 year old tu...er, trains only for them to be scrapped as IEP comes along in a few years.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 28, 2014, 13:32:46
It's the best bodge job that can be achieved with the current stock.

Electrification/IEP will provide more paths and more seating - and a good chance to rearrange services for Reading commuters. Crossrail ought to offer a very cheap option (saving at least a ^grand on an annual ticket) which should tempt some. I agree with Reading-only shuttles too (every 15mins?) and pick-up only on the services out West will provide flexibility.

The days of turn-up & go for Reading pax ought to be limited....hopefully


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 28, 2014, 13:34:24
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have a few times, especially at weekends, but isn't that the whole point? Pay more = get more space?! They would've done better making more cheap advance fares available and promoting them properly - the only cost involved then would be a small change to the booking systems and a bit of targeted marketing rather than spending millions polishing 40 year old tu...er, trains only for them to be scrapped as IEP comes along in a few years.

Oh, we're definitely talking peaks here. Weekend First will always fill at weekends, it's a no-brainer.

Yes, extra space within your one seat, not a pair....!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 28, 2014, 13:39:38
It seems to me that the Reading commuters are the main problem, with many choosing to stand on an HST rather than sit on a slower service, and then complaining about "having to stand"

Which slower services are these ones, then?  The ones that take well over twice as long and are absolutely packed to the rafters (worse than virtually all HSTs) when they get closer to London?  Sure, the Reading commuter might then get a seat, but calls further down the line would be leaving even more passengers behind than they often have to now at places like Hayes and Southall.  If you're referring to the semi-fast trains, then the same applies when they make their final call at Maidenhead and Slough - and they're not nearly frequent enough to take all the Reading commuters anyway.

Extra standard class seats won't solve the problem (the problem will never be fully solved, let's face it), but at least it'll help a little and the thousands of passengers that get their bum on a seat as a result of these works will be grateful I'm sure.  If it prevents someone from reading their broadsheet in comfort on a couple of trains a day, then I say that's worth it.

Also, let's not forget that it's not just Reading commuters that swamp these trains - there's the West Country trains on summer weekends, and I took a HST from Didcot to Bath a few weeks ago late Saturday morning and was astounded by the number of people squeezing on an already full train at Swindon/Chippenham heading to Bath and Bristol.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 28, 2014, 13:52:29
Rugby....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on May 28, 2014, 13:57:50
Rugby....

That's served by London Midland and Virgin isn't it?  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 28, 2014, 14:17:57
If you're referring to my reference about the train to Bristol, it had nothing to do with sport as far as I could ascertain.  Just Saturday shoppers and sightseers in their droves.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 28, 2014, 14:25:28
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have on several occasions over the years... I'm thinking of The Cornishman and The Mayflower in particular. Sometimes First Class is packed and other times it's practically empty. I can't attribute it to the day of travel because whenever I use those trains it is always on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Monday and Friday is very rare and it could well be worse on those days.

07:04 Westbury - London Paddington I have seen paying First Class passengers unable to get a seat from Newbury onwards. (Very rarely use this service but seen it twice) Also on the 18:06 Paddington - Frome I've seen this too. But that is an Off-Peak Service as far as Newbury I believe. The time First Class was rammed was during Glastonbury Festival... So I'll say no more on that one.

All that being said; it is very fair to say there has been countless times I have had all of First Class to myself. i.e. All 2 or 2.5 Carriages worth... :o :D ;) But then on trains such as the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington or 18:00 / 18:59 Bath Spa - Taunton; where all three trains stop everywhere it's not too hard!

The next logical step on HSTs will be to reduce first class from a one and a half coaches to just one.

Definitely agreed. That would be an absolute disaster waiting to happen... CrossCountry 4 Car Voyager anyone? Certainly photos on here of First Class being well over capacity. Both myself and bignosemac have posted some.

Then of course I remember being the only First Class passenger with an FSR Ticket who had my ticket checked and then the TM decided it would be a brilliant idea to Declassify First Class. I was invaded by a horde of Gatecrashers and the peace and quiet was shattered... :( Had there not have been other seats in Standard I'd have probably got over it... Coach F was virtually empty :(

But we all know that 4 Car Trains on the InterCity CrossCountry Route was an excellent idea to begin with which is why we have these wonderful Voyager objects ::) :-X >:(

Don't get too used to it! Travelling yesterday morning, the only quiet carriage announcement was made for coach A in standard. The quiet coach stickers seem to now be disappearing rapidly from first class.

I too heard a similar announcement. Welsh Train Manager by any chance?? :D

Yes also noticed the Quiet Carriage stickers disappearing rapidly. Also seen some consists with 2 Carriage L's... Wonderful if you have a seat reservation in Carriage L ::) (I disregarded him and sat in Coach K)

"first complain that the half coach was regularly invaded by standard"

I disagree with that actually. But can see your point of view also. It seems to work ok for South West Trains**, East Midlands Trains, Transpennine Express*, London Midland**, GreaterAnglia**, First Capital Connect**, Southern**, Southeastern** and FGW** in part.

In Particular I think on EMT and SWT the difference between First and Standard Class in undoubtedly clear. I think some TOCs could do with making it a little clearer on some routes where First Class is, but that is my opinion. Here are 2 examples for Southern 377s:

I should imagine Southern get many Penalty Fares from Foreign Travellers around Gatwick Airport who genuinely didn't realise that First Class was each end of a 377. A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs in the next carriage ::)

I had much less sympathy for the foul-mouthed college students who said "What the flipping heck [polite version] are you looking at the moment they got on the train?" and were talking about bunking the fare to Barnham... T'was satisfying to see Karma got her way :-X

Then what doesn't help is Southern Declassify First Class between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction... So it's easily done to sit there at Kensington Olympia but the moment you past Watford Junction... Kaching! :-\ :-X

* = These TOCs have First Class in the middle of a carriage on some units. (First Class is the filling of 2 Standard Class pieces of bread = Composite Carriage)
** = These TOCs have First Class in various parts of the train when sets are joined together.


If you're referring to my reference about the train to Bristol, it had nothing to do with sport as far as I could ascertain.  Just Saturday shoppers and sightseers in their droves.

Nothing unusual there then. It's chaos Rugby or no Rugby... Rugby Days it's much worse however.

First Class becomes a mosh/rave pit on 1A35 and 1A37 see the post in Frequent Posters.

<tongue-in-cheek=on>
Sometimes the Didcot Dunny procedure is more acceptable (The art of hiding from the hordes in a toilet until Didcot... There is a similar procedure class the Swindon s....... actually... nah! ;D )
</tongue-in-cheek=off>


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on May 28, 2014, 14:37:56
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have.  And FGW pay compensation every time it happens.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 28, 2014, 15:11:42
A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs in the next carriage ::)

I had much less sympathy ...

Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.

We may all know these obvious things on the forum ... but I'm reminded of the two young ladies I saw waiting at Swindon station for the South Wales train.   It came in and they stood patiently waiting for the doors to open ...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 28, 2014, 15:12:47
Possibly worth waiting until the conversion work is complete, before you all decide it was a terrible mistake.  In the meantime, there's bound to be a little disruption to the provision of first class whilst vehicles go in for refurbishment, as there was when the original refresh took place towards the end of the last decade.  As for taking the 'easy option', surely that would have been to do nothing and watch standard class crowding get worse and worse (with half empty first class carriages on the vast majority of trains) until the IEP's arrive?

Personally, I look forward to seeing the new First Class layout (and will comment good or bad then, not now) hoping it to be an improvement on the current service with free wi-fi long overdue!

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: the void on May 28, 2014, 16:02:56
By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on May 28, 2014, 16:30:49
I should imagine Southern get many Penalty Fares from Foreign Travellers around Gatwick Airport who genuinely didn't realise that First Class was each end of a 377. A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs in the next carriage ::)

I had much less sympathy for the foul-mouthed college students who said "What the flipping heck [polite version] are you looking at the moment they got on the train?" and were talking about bunking the fare to Barnham... T'was satisfying to see Karma got her way :-X

Then what doesn't help is Southern Declassify First Class between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction... So it's easily done to sit there at Kensington Olympia but the moment you past Watford Junction... Kaching! :-\ :-X
I saw a team of Southern RPIs target the First Class compartments between Clapham Junction and East Croydon recently. They didn't even check the rest of the train but went straight for First Class. I think in the two compartments I saw (I was in the middle of an 8-car set so 2 compartments back on to each other) they issued 6 Penalty Fares, and there's only 20 seats in those two First Class sections combined. The problem of course is that the ^20 Penalty Fare probably isn't much of a deterrent if you only get caught once in a blue moon. The First Class policy is a bit confusing on many Southern services. 377s working 'Metro' services have declassified First Class, but sometimes the CIS screens say that and sometimes they don't. The new 377/6 trains have by far the worst First Class markings on any of the fleet, on some units it really is unclear whether it is First Class or not. 95% of the services they run don't have First Class but I bet people are caught out on those 5% of services which do.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 16:52:20
By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.

Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones? It would represent a much more sustainable approach to dealing with capacity issues and would provide new rolling stock for the west of England services once the IEP is rolled out elsewhere on the great western network


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 28, 2014, 16:58:01

I too heard a similar announcement. Welsh Train Manager by any chance?? :D


Yes, 7.58 ex Swansea yesterday, boarded at Bridgend. Was one of the more 'enthused' of the Swansea based train managers...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: tom m on May 28, 2014, 17:53:01
I think it is unreasonable to expect reading commuters or any other TV stations with a fast service to paddington to use the local stopping services. what would ypu do if you were in the same boat?

I think there is much to be said for the British airways  model on short haul European services, where the  standard of travel is not dictated by seat space but standard of service and flexibility of booking as it gives them much greater operational flexibility.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 28, 2014, 18:24:31
Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.

My emphasis in Bold... Someone tell South West Trains about this please... ::)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eyrjnK4zOiI/U0mfYivZ1NI/AAAAAAAAJgA/oFR5GaGTuwE/w983-h553-no/20140412_204502.jpg)

Southern Stag I agree on the 377/6 Southern Trains units. Incidentally these units also convey the largest amount of First Class seating other than Class 442s (Which is kinda obvious what is First Class is on those units!)

I think the units that win the prize however are the GreaterAnglia Class 360 Units. Very little information especially if the compartment door is locked open :-\ :-X :-[

I think it is unreasonable to expect reading commuters or any other TV stations with a fast service to paddington to use the local stopping services. what would ypu do if you were in the same boat?

Well me personally would use a stopping service if I meant that I got a seat in the class of travel for which I have paid. As a regular First Class passenger (sorry) I often aim for trains that no-one else wants because either: They call everywhere. Take a cavorted route (London - York direct via Sheffield springs to mind :) ) or travel at times no-one else wants to (Very early AM or very early PM)

You may wish to discount my opinion however because I am not your usual 9-5 working commuter. I also have very unique travel preferences.



As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1 and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.



With regards to the mothballed Mk3 Carriages FGW have been trying to source. There is so much Mk2 lying around the country doing nothing. Yes these carriages are in excess of 40 years old maybe. But we have them. Maybe the DfT should be lobbying to make the best of a bad situation?! Just a thought... :)

Of course anyone complaining about the prices of a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington should be buying their season tickets from Overton ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on May 28, 2014, 20:48:19
I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have.  And FGW pay compensation every time it happens.

And I have seen it too.. More than once.. And one time it happened there was also a ticket check and they really were ALL first class customers on that occasion.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 28, 2014, 21:32:40
I've seen first class full on the odd occasion too, but i see standard class full many times every day.  What should be the priority?

Dusting off the blueprints and building sime new Mk III's would be a lovely idea if the design would pass currenty safety and accessibility regulations.  Sadly they'd fail for numerous reasons.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on May 28, 2014, 21:34:32
As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1 and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.
The problem, as stated by IndustryInsider above is that the stopping services are actually busier than the fast services. HSTs between Paddington and Reading are busy, but the stopping services at Ealing Broadway are crush loaded.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 29, 2014, 06:21:46
As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1 and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.
The problem, as stated by IndustryInsider above is that the stopping services are actually busier than the fast services. HSTs between Paddington and Reading are busy, but the stopping services at Ealing Broadway are crush loaded.

I agree re: stopping services at Ealing B, it used to be my commuting route and was always busy in the evenings but tried it recently and it was absolutely horrific to the point of being dangerous in terms of numbers on platform/trying to board trains - which begs the question, it's all very well providing extra capacity on long distance/HST routes, but what's being done about the local services? Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on May 29, 2014, 07:39:41
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 29, 2014, 09:48:11
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 29, 2014, 10:11:46
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)

Agree with TG, what I see as a major failing in this franchise has been the inability to predict passenger numbers accurately and/or unwillingness to act accordingly to provide sufficient capacity and lobbying government to assist in providing this. But then, why would first group care? Did they not want to hand the keys back and walk away just a short while ago?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 29, 2014, 11:50:23
I agree with TaplowGreen in principle as well.  But there is no suitable diesel stock around.  ROSCO's are unprepared to finance such new stock given the electrification programme.  FirstGroup are, quite rightly, unwilling to invest in new stock with their short term pseudo-franchise.  Major investment in new electric trains is just round the corner - local suburban trains could/should be in the hands of electric traction within three years. 

All reasonable/sensible measures were taken by hiring in the two units that were available (Class 150s) for the Basingstoke route and bringing back the 5 Class 180s which released several Turbos that strengthened a lot of the morning local trains (allowing roughly an extra 1000 seats on both the morning and evening local services).  The recent initiative of removing some of the First Class on the 166s has, as we always knew, made no difference, but I would argue that on the majority of trains the crowding has eased slightly on where it was back in early 2012 before the above measures took hold - despite being at critical levels on many trains still.

There will be no excuse for not providing adequate space come the arrival of the new electric trains and Crossrail.  I say adequate space because it is unrealistic to expect everybody to have a seat on the local journeys at all times, but it is unacceptable for this investment to arrive and trains to still be running around with crush loadings.  I will be disappointed if they are.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 29, 2014, 15:50:54
Well I'm currently sat in Coach G (sorry Coach L) on a Westcountry bound train and the conductor has just announced that there is no longer a quite coach in First Class to the joy of having then to suffer umpteen loud ringing mobile telephones :P  Think I'm going to decamp to Coach A ::)

.........and after speaking to the conductor he informed me that FGW was at the receiving end of a bit of a backlash from regular First Class passengers concerning the First Class changes.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on May 29, 2014, 15:56:22
Thank you II for your well balanced reply.

It is easy to forget that what FGW can do is controlled by DfT , through the franchise conditions, the rail privatisation arrangements and wider rail policy.

FGW can only sign a lease for the remainder of their very short franchise unless the government becomes a party to the contract. Almost all the risk is therefore on the leasing company.

A leasing company would normally work out its costs on something like a 30 year life for a train. Wider rail policy of rail electrification means that there will be a glut of diesel trains on the market in a few years. To recover their costs of buying a new train from the train operators over the short estimated life they would have, would make the leasing price unaffordable to the train operators.

If FGW order new trains today they would not be here before the new IEP & cross rail trains that are on order and the local electric trains that might be on order or be cascaded or about to be ordered, if only DfT would tell us where they are coming from (FGW cannot order these as the franchise contract does not allow them to).  

Even if new diesel trains were available at the normal rates often the additional revenue would not be sufficient to cover the additional leasing costs. FGW would therefore look to DfT to adjust the franchise terms to cover these additional costs. If they had built this into their franchise bid then DfT would probably gone elsewhere because other would not have included it as it was not a specified requirement.

Now if DfT had let a contract that stipulated that the train operators had to provide enough trains to avoid overcrowding at its risk they would have all priced it.  This would either have had to be a long term contract (like Chiltern's) or DfT would have to guarantee that the new stock would be designated franchise assets so the lasing company could price them realistically.  

Remember that the leasing companies are private businesses, they cannot make a loss eventually go bust.  If they do not make a certain profit their investors will go elsewhere.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 29, 2014, 16:08:45
As a side line. I am loathed to suggest further complicating Ticketing arrangements. But I am thinking of HS1 and something tom m has mentioned on the British Airways model.

If a season ticket from Reading - London Paddington was kept at the current price. But a second season tier created for slower services at a 25% discount? With a validity: NOT HSS

Anything from West of Reading (With the exception of Reading West) allowing travel on HSS Services at no additional cost. Perhaps extend the scheme however so that passengers are given the choice to buy down to semi-fast services only.

Then a supplement of ^2.50 - ^5.00 payable on the train if you ever want to use the HSS Services on such a season.

You're not trying to price people out of the HSS Services. You're offering a reduced service in return for a reduced cost. If there is disruption of more than 30 minutes then all HSS restrictions are waived until all delays are nil.

I seriously think that would remove some capacity issues. As you are just moving the passenger flows around the trains you have available. I think ultimately however regardless of whatever is done. You are going to have too many passengers for trains.

I suggested this further back up the thread - although the excess would be more than a fiver, I suspect....Crossrail would be the TOC offering such a fare....

Possibly also, HSS Reading shuttles every, say 15 mins in the peak, stopping at Reading and, possibly one of the other inner TV stations (Maidenhead for example - to cover off those HSS stops currently) - then keeping them off trains to the West Country by making them non-stop / pick-up only?

With the extra paths & higher acceleration this would be possible.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on May 29, 2014, 16:18:27
Well I'm currently sat in Coach G (sorry Coach L) on a Westcountry bound train and the conductor has just announced that there is no longer a quite coach in First Class to the joy of having then to suffer umpteen loud ringing mobile telephones :P  Think I'm going to decamp to Coach A ::)

.........and after speaking to the conductor he informed me that FGW was at the receiving end of a bit of a backlash from regular First Class passengers concerning the First Class changes.

If it is of any interest I made exactly that move recently, my Monday morning journey was quieter than I ever experienced in first, I'm currently in the process of completing my journey pattern but in coach A rather than G. So far it's been ok. I've also noted a few other former first class regulars doing the same thing...

Interesting, but not a massive surprise that FGW are experiencing a backlash. Did the train manager suggest what form this backlash was taking? Complaints to management or more people just voting with their feet?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 29, 2014, 16:26:30
I've had the layouts confirmed.....

The micro-buffets will have Standard seating either side of it, with the 1st class being the 1.5 coaches nearest the PAD buffers.

On the other sets, the full size buffet coach will be moved to sit second coach from the buffers, oriented that it's 1st class seating buts onto to the coach nearest the buffers with full 1st seating. The coach being converted to Standard then being the third coach from the buffers.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 29, 2014, 16:43:09
but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)
But then, why would first group care? Did they not want to hand the keys back and walk away just a short while ago?

Hmmm ... it's incumbent on the service provider to meet the requirements of their contract, which may be to provide a certain level of services and may include targets relating to handling passenger numbers in some way (but it may not).  Second requirement - being a commercial company - is to make a profit.  Where there's a major flow of passengers, the company may choose to provide services to cope (Glastonbury), or not to (some late night events at the Millennium Stadium).

I'm not convinced that First wanted to walk away at any point.   More likely they wanted to (and did) hand back the keys so that they could be given the keys again after they had been made better.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 29, 2014, 16:45:18
Willing to accept the comments on stopping TV services being overcrowded. It's not my area so was only a suggestion :)

although the excess would be more than a fiver

Yes you did suggest that. Sorry I must have missed that.

I suggested ^2.50 - ^5.00 for two reasons.

Currently the HS1 Upgrade is ^3.00 (IIRC)

The current Season Ticket price between Reading and London Termini for 12 Months is ^4,088.00
Take 25% off that season ticket = ^3270.40
The difference being ^817.60

Divide the difference by 365 Days a year = ^2.24 Per day for a theoretical HSS Upgrade. Hence my suggestion of ^2.50 - ^5.00

If we do it over 40 weeks which how many weeks you pay for a season IIRC is ^2.92

So ^5.00 is realistic. Perhaps maybe even ^10.00 Not sure I would be tempted to pay ^10.00 to get somewhere in 30 minutes as opposed to 60+ But there are those who will :)



I agree with the comments that staff seem to be saying. They are getting a backlash over the decision. Perhaps Mk2 Carriages should be used interim until Crossrail which may solve the problems. But then I am compelled to suggest even Crossrail might not be the full solution. Just part of it :)

Interesting, but not a massive surprise that FGW are experiencing a backlash. Did the train manager suggest what form this backlash was taking? Complaints to management or more people just voting with their feet?

I *think* the backlash is both of those mentioned. AND First Class Pax taking it out on Customer Facing Staff. I've seen it happen twice recently. One occasion this lady was giving the TM a REALLY hard time. For some reason I saw red and defended the TM as this lady was being rather horrible. That and I got fedup with her shouting and ranting and raving. You couldn't make up that she was sat in Coach M ::)

As for the Quiet Carriage. I think Virgin Trains and Eastcoast are the only Long Distance TOCs to have Quiet Carriages in First Class left. So in all honesty, whilst the reduction in seats is in my opinion a disaster waiting to happen. I think loss of the Quiet Carriage isn't necessarily an issue. South West Trains, East Midlands Trains etc are long distance InterCity Operators that don't have Quiet Carriages in First Class :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on May 29, 2014, 16:48:39
I've had the layouts confirmed.....

The micro-buffets will have Standard seating either side of it, with the 1st class being the 1.5 coaches nearest the PAD buffers.

On the other sets, the full size buffet coach will be moved to sit second coach from the buffers, oriented that it's 1st class seating buts onto to the coach nearest the buffers with full 1st seating. The coach being converted to Standard then being the third coach from the buffers.

So, no change from what I was told by FGW back in October 2013 then?  :P

Information which I posted in this same thread back then:

I have been told that the make-up of FGW HST sets after the changes will be:

Sets with a full buffet:
[London end] Class 43 - TF - TRFB - TS - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

Sets with a micro buffet:
[London End] Class 43 - TF - TC - TSMB - TS - TS - TSD - TS - TSG - Class 43 [Country end]

TF = Trailer First
TC = Trailer Composite (half 1st Class, half Standard)
TRFB = Trailer Restaurant First Buffet
TSMB = Trailer Standard Micro Buffet
TSD = Trailer Standard Disabled
TS = Trailer Standard
TSG = Trailer Standard Guard

Many times since then the same information was posted here, and the railway press have also given the same information in articles since FGW/DfT first announced the changes to 1st Class provision on the FGW HST fleet. However, nice to know the Customer Panel also now know officially.  ;) ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 29, 2014, 16:51:05
I've had the layouts confirmed.....

The micro-buffets will have Standard seating either side of it, with the 1st class being the 1.5 coaches nearest the PAD buffers.

On the other sets, the full size buffet coach will be moved to sit second coach from the buffers, oriented that it's 1st class seating buts onto to the coach nearest the buffers with full 1st seating. The coach being converted to Standard then being the third coach from the buffers.

See my previous post #428 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg153486#msg153486)

That was from an Internal FGW Document I was allowed to look at a while back. I have asked for another look at it because I only got a brief look as I needed to catch a train (Which includes one of the Internal Mockup Impressions listing the carriage as Coach A ::) )

My contact has requested a copy for me and I am waiting for it to arrive. But haven't been to that station in a few days. I'll see if he's ready when I pop up next :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 29, 2014, 16:56:30
They walked away because they could (their agreed contract with the DfT allowed a break clause) and avoid a very heavily ^-loaded rear end contract that the DfT issued and FGW signed.

Pure and simple. Total DfT f***-up.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 30, 2014, 00:51:10
Posting here in a personal capacity: I agree with ChrisB in what he says in his post above.  :-X


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on May 30, 2014, 12:52:25
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 30, 2014, 16:23:15
.........and after speaking to the conductor he informed me that FGW was at the receiving end of a bit of a backlash from regular First Class passengers concerning the First Class changes.

Interesting, but not a massive surprise that FGW are experiencing a backlash. Did the train manager suggest what form this backlash was taking? Complaints to management or more people just voting with their feet?

I think its both.  There was an argument going on between another passenger (sorry customer) and the Train Manager about the quiet coach (or lack of) with the passenger stating that the coach was still labelled thus on the exterior and thus he would take them to court for mis-leading advertising  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 30, 2014, 16:26:38
.....and when the Train Manager announced that 'customers' should read the Safety Cards I did my duty and duly read it and this is what I found.....

(http://cbrailways.co.uk/PhotoAlbumsPro/1379866239/Safety%20Card%2029%20May%202014_1.jpg?cache=0.3672910451423377)

No sign of coaches K, L or M there then ::) :P  I will be writing to RSSB and FGW.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 30, 2014, 16:33:30
Why? They're not essential/required....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on May 30, 2014, 16:55:40
Why? They're not essential/required....

So why are they there?  Better to withdraw them if so as they could confuse the occasional, non-train-savvy punter in an emergency.  Not sure what the H&S risk assessment would be of having inaccurate safety info over none at all.

(I shan't lose any sleep wondering  ;).)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on May 30, 2014, 18:25:12
No sign of coaches K, L or M there then ::) :P  I will be writing to RSSB and FGW.

I've sent the picture to a Safety, Health and Environmental Manager to see what they think of it. It is also worth pointing out on a DDA side that Train Managers carry these Safety Cards in Braille Format...! :-X

I am merely speculating here. But IF someone read the Braille Safety Leaflet and were sat in Coach M. Then there was, God forbid, a serious incident... Doesn't bear thinking about in my opinion.

So personally I agree with bringing this to the attention of FGW and RSSB. I'll post what my contact thinks on this when I get a response.

Posting here in a personal capacity: I agree with ChrisB in what he says in his post above.  :-X

+1 :-X


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 30, 2014, 18:32:14
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?

..........you will I hope forgive the perceived heresy against the infallible deity that is FGW in the opinion of some on here, and you will I hope have noted the irony in my original post....however as someone who, along with millions of others has over the years spent a fair chunk of my salary on some of the highest rail fares in the World and in return spent a fair chunk of my time in conditions of overcrowding which if I were a cow or horse would be illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect some tangible effort at a meaningful solution from the organisation receiving said monies, without having to devise the solutions myself?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 30, 2014, 18:51:22
And hopefully you'll be making those views in your response to the Greater Western franchise consultation that's currently running, as most of the fault in that regard lies with the DfT.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 30, 2014, 18:58:58
And hopefully you'll be making those views in your response to the Greater Western franchise consultation that's currently running, as most of the fault in that regard lies with the DfT.

Already done - awaiting a constructive response (but not holding breath!)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 30, 2014, 23:06:10
Good stuff.  I urge others who have similar concerns/grievances to do the same.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 31, 2014, 06:42:33
And hopefully you'll be making those views in your response to the Greater Western franchise consultation that's currently running, ...

Sorry to hijack your suggestion ...

Question for those who have already input to the consultation.  Are you getting any form of acknowledgement of your email to confirm it's got through?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2014, 11:59:37
You won't receive a personal response (constructive or otherwise)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on May 31, 2014, 12:31:13
I think what grahame was asking, indeed what I was thinking, was whether you get any acknowledgement that a submission has been actually received rather than any verdict on the contents.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2014, 12:34:28
Don't know - but I suspect only a Standard acknowledgement of receipt response from the email address you submit your input to.

I doubt you get an acknowledgement in writing if you mail in. But I'm happy to learn otherwise.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on May 31, 2014, 13:13:33
I think what grahame was asking, indeed what I was thinking, was whether you get any acknowledgement that a submission has been actually received rather than any verdict on the contents.

Correct - just an automated "Your input has reached the consultation email box" response ^

Don't know - but I suspect only a Standard acknowledgement of receipt response from the email address you submit your input to.

Yes - that's what I would like.  But I submitted the Chamber of Commerce response and have nothing to tell me it's reached them.   You all know how bad I am at smelling, and I'm worked that I may have got the email address wrong


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2014, 13:28:06
Really...how difficult is it to set upba standard 'thanks for your submission' auto-reply?!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on May 31, 2014, 17:45:31
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?

..........you will I hope forgive the perceived heresy against the infallible deity that is FGW in the opinion of some on here, and you will I hope have noted the irony in my original post....however as someone who, along with millions of others has over the years spent a fair chunk of my salary on some of the highest rail fares in the World and in return spent a fair chunk of my time in conditions of overcrowding which if I were a cow or horse would be illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect some tangible effort at a meaningful solution from the organisation receiving said monies, without having to devise the solutions myself?

I agree it is not your problem to solve, I just thought you may have a suggestion, as you appear to think FGW are not doing enough, even with the well reported national rolling stock constraints, and brand new rolling stock on the horizon.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on May 31, 2014, 18:33:35
Certainly London bound stoppers in the morning are rammed by Hayes and Harlington.............I suspect the answer will be "Crossrail will sort everything out"  however perhaps something is needed quicker........demand has been rising year on year so no excuses for FGW not addressing this.

Addressing it how?

Errrrrrrr.......by planning for and providing extra capacity in order that paying customers can board and travel safely and with at least a modicum of space/comfort? It ain't cheap you know! (I now fully expect to be blown away by "there isn't just stock lying around doing nothing you know" type responses), but surely it is incumbent upon the service provider to provide sufficient capacity?  ::)

So given you know there is a national shortage of rolling stock and you no doubt understand the short-term nature there is with the GW franchise, if you were in charge of FGW when the new contract came into force last year, what would you have done differently with regards to obtaining extra rolling stock to provide the sufficient level of capacity you mention, given IEP and Crossrail are in the offing and the previously mentioned shortage of stock...?

..........you will I hope forgive the perceived heresy against the infallible deity that is FGW in the opinion of some on here, and you will I hope have noted the irony in my original post....however as someone who, along with millions of others has over the years spent a fair chunk of my salary on some of the highest rail fares in the World and in return spent a fair chunk of my time in conditions of overcrowding which if I were a cow or horse would be illegal, I don't think it's unreasonable of me to expect some tangible effort at a meaningful solution from the organisation receiving said monies, without having to devise the solutions myself?

You must remember that the relationship between DfT and FGW is such that you could equally have said that DfT have been receiving said monies.  Since they have put FGW in the impossible position it is they, I think, that have to come up with a solution. Of course that solution might be to give FGW or their successors the responsibility and the freedom to solve the problem.  However, that is only likely to be possible with a long franchise so not this time.   


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on May 31, 2014, 21:51:07
People forget that FGW are the only TOC who bought some trains outright from under the nose of the DfT (or whatever name they went with at the time).  8 full HSTs were purchased and for this they incurred a warning from the DfT.  This clearly shows who runs the railways of this country when a company is reprimanded for using its own initiative to increase capacity. 
The purchase of these HSTs clearly demonstrates FGW clearly new and anticipated either the growth of the franchise or were aware st the time the current rolling stock levels were not sufficient.
Those 8 HSTs would have probably have been allocated to another TOC.  Where do you think Great Western would be without 8 fewer HSTs on the books because we know there is currently nothing else out there that would have replaced them.

First are trying their best to source new rolling stock.  Again demonstrated by the 2x 150 and 180s right towards the end of the franchise, this is a huge commitment with such a short time left on the franchise.  Both the 150s and 180s are hugely expensive to run, either due to the small size of the fleet and/or there unreliability. 
The number of maintenance staff employed to keep the 180s serviceable is staggering.
They are still acquiring MkIII trailers and having them converted to standard class carriages despite the uncertain future of the franchise. 
FGW, without receiving taxpayer funded new trains, have probably increased the size of its fleet more than any other operator in the country.

People protest that the railway should be renationalised.  The government virtually control it now and look how well they are doing.  The problem is simple.  There is too much government interference which heavily restricts what a TOC can do to grow and improve it's service.  Most TOCs will tell you they do not have enough resources.  When diesel trains become available for lease you've got a handful of TOCs chasing for them.
The whole FGW fleet is stretched to breaking point, during the peak periods there is often nothing spare. Yes the trains they may look uncared for to the public with heating, air con, toilet issues but at the end of the day maintenance staff have just about enough time to complete all safety related work in a few hours overnight.  Sometimes there isn't enough time and you end up having trains late off the depot in the morning.  It's not because the driver has overslept, it's because the trains are still being worked on.  Unfortunately, "cosmetic" repairs take a back seat to getting the train back out in service. 

Passengers need to stop bashing TOCs and start hitting the DfT, especially now with the IEP project.  What happens in the next few years will probably shape the future of the franchise for the next 15 years.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2014, 10:07:15
FGW have certainly done better than some other TOCs and the outright purchase of some HSTs in order to increase capacity is most commendable. For these reasons I hope that they retain the franchise, they have their faults but are still better IMO than the likely alternatives.

Will the new trains in fact provide much extra capacity ? or is it simply a case of "jam tomorrow" ?
I have seen a number of cases when the introduction of new trains has actually REDUCED capacity.

I predict that existing rolling stock will suddenly become "obsolete" or "non compliant" or even "dangerous" on the day that the new trains are introduced.
I remember the introduction of the new networker EMUs, with much fanfare about increased capacity etc. In fact 6 car networkers replaced 8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line and elsewhere with a consequent increase in standing and overcrowding. No question of retaining the old units on one line or route since they became "dangerous" as soon as networker deliveries started.

I also remember the class 159s replacing loco hauled trains on Waterloo to Salisbury services again with much fanfare about the huge improvements. In fact train lengths were reduced from 8 car to 3 car, buffets abolished, first class accomadation much reduced, and cycles carried only with advance booking. No question of course of keeping some full length loco hauled trains for busy services, the whole lot became "obsolete" once a few 159s were delivered.

More recently of course we saw 4 or 5 car voyagers replacing HSTs and loco hauled trains on cross country services, with standing becoming the norm on services that previously had seats for all.

No doubt we will be assured that it will be different this time, but previous events do not fill me with optimism.
As soon as a few IEPs are available I expect that HSTs will suddenly become "non compliant" and have to be scrapped. Other slightly newer stock will no doubt be needed elsewhere.
And a cynic like me expects poor reliability/availability from the new trains for at least a few years.

And remember that most of the new trains are shorter than those they are to replace.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on June 01, 2014, 10:52:02
I remember the introduction of the new networker EMUs, with much fanfare about increased capacity etc. In fact 6 car networkers replaced 8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line and elsewhere with a consequent increase in standing and overcrowding. No question of retaining the old units on one line or route since they became "dangerous" as soon as networker deliveries started.

I think the accidents at Clapham Junction, Cannon Street, Purley, and Cowden are all testament to how dangerous slammers were in any form of collision. Despite these dangers, and the recommendations of the 'Hidden' report into the accident at Clapham Junction, 'slammers' continued in service for another 15 years beyond the introduction of the first 'Networker'.

Quote
More recently of course we saw 4 or 5 car voyagers replacing HSTs and loco hauled trains on cross country services, with standing becoming the norm on services that previously had seats for all.

Voyagers introduced with a doubling of frequency over the core CrossCountry network. Elsewhere hourly, where previously there was a mish-mash of lesser frequency. More services to the far extremities of the CrossCountry network. Yes, in recent years capacity has become an issue on CrossCountry due to greater than forecast passenger growth. However, I don't think standing is the norm. Happens often on CrossCountry but 'the norm' to me means greater than 50% of the time. Certainly not my experience. In the last 8 years I think I've stood on a CrossCountry service less than a dozen times.

Quote
As soon as a few IEPs are available I expect that HSTs will suddenly become "non compliant" and have to be scrapped. Other slightly newer stock will no doubt be needed elsewhere.

So no more trains to Devon and Cornwall as soon as the the IEP sets enter squadron service then?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2014, 12:28:07
My cynical prediction is that once IEPs enter service, is that HSTs will suddenly become life expired and non compliant "much worse condition than expected" and "upgrades to render them compliant much more expensive" and not "not worth it for such a small and now non standard fleet"

Service to the far west would not of course cease, but could be provided by the new 5 car IEPs, perhaps with the odd "double length train" at especially busy times. Or perhaps a connecting service once part of the route is electrified.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 01, 2014, 13:22:15
No one likes changing trains - otherwise frankly, why do HSTs go west of St Austell generally now?

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: FarWestJohn on June 01, 2014, 19:17:19
I don't see how IEPs are of much long term use on the Plymouth route and into Cornwall. Only a tilting train will increase speeds on this twisting route to Exeter and through Devon.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on June 01, 2014, 19:46:22
No one likes changing trains - otherwise frankly, why do HSTs go west of St Austell generally now?

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...

Eventually they might move to the South West services when other lines they are used on are electrified.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 01, 2014, 22:19:57
I don't see how IEPs are of much long term use on the Plymouth route and into Cornwall. Only a tilting train will increase speeds on this twisting route to Exeter and through Devon.
If the rumour I've seen on forums that some class 390s would be released for cascade if/when HS2 is built, then cascaded 390s, aside from their abysmally small windows, would seem to me a sensible eventual replacement for the last of the GWML IC125 fleet (electrification permitting).

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?
East Coast's IC125 fleet is 2+9... I can think of several possible reasons for the fact FirstGW's fleet is limited to 2+8 most of the time, but have no idea which are true.

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.
Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones? It would represent a much more sustainable approach to dealing with capacity issues and would provide new rolling stock for the west of England services once the IEP is rolled out elsewhere on the great western network
Apart from the saftey regulations somebody else already mentioned (which I hadn't thought of), the factory that built the mrk3s probably no longer exists (and if it does, it would probably be Derby which I think only builds aluminum-bodied stock now) and nobody is likely to want to build slam-door stock.

However, while there is little in the way of spare stock over here, the power-door mrk3s in Ireland are, I believe, being cut up because nobody wanted to buy them. So there is an element of 'penny pinching' rather than 'provide extra capacity at any cost bar building new trains', but government policy is probably to blame more than the TOCs.

Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD-Bristol and use IEPs on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.
My emphasis in Bold... Someone tell South West Trains about this please... ::)
ATW also use the word 'first' rather than (or maybe in addition to) numbers on their two first class carriages (that's two carriages for the entire franchise by the way, not 2 per train as on FirstGW's IC125 services).

I think the units that win the prize however are the GreaterAnglia Class 360 Units. Very little information especially if the compartment door is locked open :-\ :-X :-
ScotRail class 158s don't even have a door seperating first from standard. The seats are just slightly different and there's a short partition wall on each side.

With regards to the mothballed Mk3 Carriages FGW have been trying to source. There is so much Mk2 lying around the country doing nothing. Yes these carriages are in excess of 40 years old maybe. But we have them. Maybe the DfT should be lobbying to make the best of a bad situation?! Just a thought... :)
Indeed. Mrk2s wouldn't be any good for the INTERCITY services out of PAD (lower top-speed) but given the lack of DMUs and the ammount of crowding across the network the mrk2s should be used somewhere. ATW looked like they were going to do the right thing and actually purchased some mrk2s. However, they seldom used most of the coaches and sold them to a charter operator not long ago (somebody on RailUK Fourm once told me the person responsible for the purchase was sacked by ATW). I believe Direct Rail Services have had some mrk2s refurbished, along with some DBSOs which would allow push-pull operation, for use on the Northern franchise. However, that plan seems to have fallen through too.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on June 02, 2014, 09:38:26

Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones?

Apart from the saftey regulations somebody else already mentioned (which I hadn't thought of), the factory that built the mrk3s probably no longer exists (and if it does, it would probably be Derby which I think only builds aluminum-bodied stock now) and nobody is likely to want to build slam-door stock.

You also have the issue of some apparently simple components being rather difficult to source ...

http://www.epbpg.co.uk/epbpgpreservation.html

Quote
The original ceiling design can not be replicated, as hardboard is unobtainable in the large size sheets required.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2014, 10:30:09
Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD-Bristol and use IEPs on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

10car (bi-modes only, don't forget - so on routes for that stock) are likely only in the peaks. Otherwise it's 9car electrics. Off-peak, it'll be 5car bi-modes, I'm sure. But double the frequency, you can halve the length of the train to get the same number of seats....so a 5car as 1 of the extra Bristol's (the one going to W-s-M) should be fine off-peak. And possibly peak too, as there are 3 other trains an hour.

The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on June 02, 2014, 10:48:54
The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2014, 11:02:13
Because you might be blind & can't see that?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: lordgoata on June 02, 2014, 12:20:22
The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ? How many minutes delayed it is (I'm sure it used to tell you that before they refreshed the CIS?), and the fact the BICYCLES ARE NOT PERMITTED would be far more useful....

Edit: actually now I think of it, it does tell you that doesn't it ? I'm sure they did use to give some other useful bit of information before they changed it to tell you where the train started from after the refresh though, I've just forgotten what it was (so clearly wasn't that useful before someone else says it  :P )


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: tom m on June 02, 2014, 12:46:51
Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD-Bristol and use IEPs on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

10car (bi-modes only, don't forget - so on routes for that stock) are likely only in the peaks. Otherwise it's 9car electrics. Off-peak, it'll be 5car bi-modes, I'm sure. But double the frequency, you can halve the length of the train to get the same number of seats....so a 5car as 1 of the extra Bristol's (the one going to W-s-M) should be fine off-peak. And possibly peak too, as there are 3 other trains an hour.

The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

I am sure I remember a lot of discussion about the 10 car being used on the Cotswold route with a split at Oxford? Not sure if the 10 car split will be done on other routes.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2014, 12:52:48
In the (shoulder) peaks maybe....only the Cotswolds trains will be bi-modes, the Oxford fasts will be ekectric 9cars....

(I wish people woukd read the consultation as its very clear in there what stock will be used on which services)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on June 02, 2014, 13:08:39
The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....
The CIS already tells you how many coaches the train has.

In the (shoulder) peaks maybe....only the Cotswolds trains will be bi-modes, the Oxford fasts will be ekectric 9cars....

(I wish people woukd read the consultation as its very clear in there what stock will be used on which services)
Oxford fasts which don't interwork with Cotswold Line trains are more likely to be EMUs rather than IEP, much like current services are often Turbos. There are no clear indications as to what services will be formed of what stock yet, only broad outlines.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2014, 13:24:56
Not so....check the diagram in the consultaion....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on June 02, 2014, 13:30:42
The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ?

Ah ... I concluded that was to help you if you were meeting someone off the train, or joining someone on the train already.    I'm meeting someone on the 08:44 departure from Chippenham tomorrow and it will be re-assuring to be told it's the 07:30 from Paddington 08:30 from Swindon.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 02, 2014, 16:29:24
Not so....check the diagram in the consultaion....

Page 33's diagram?  Where it shows an IEP operated service between London and Worcester calling Reading, Oxford and then onto the Cotswolds (with some extensions to Malvern and Hereford) and an EMU service every hour between London and Oxford calling at Slough and Reading?

Southern Stag is (as usual) correct, and as you say in a previous post, I do wish people would read the consultation before being so cock-sure about themselves...   ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on June 02, 2014, 17:05:22
The CIS is definitely going to need an upgrade as it's going to need to show the type of train/number of coaches....

As a complete aside, why do announcements tell you how long a train is when it's already standing at the platform?

And why do they tell you where it came from ?

Ah ... I concluded that was to help you if you were meeting someone off the train, or joining someone on the train already.    I'm meeting someone on the 08:44 departure from Chippenham tomorrow and it will be re-assuring to be told it's the 07:30 from Paddington 08:30 from Swindon.

Like all these things - it is all or nothing. The train's origin may be helpful for a train at Reading, Swindon or Chippenham for example - but not so useful when standing at St Erth and waiting for an eastbound train to be told "This is the train from Penzance".


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2014, 17:10:48
Or at Reading on westbound platforms as all trains obly emanate from one station :-)

But ^ cost of making different programming for just a couple of statiobs


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on June 02, 2014, 17:23:53
Except those that start at Reading and head west of course.

And all the CrossCountry services to or from Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham NS, Guildford, Bournemouth, Southampton, Winchester, etc that don't start/terminate at Reading. They all head westbound.  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on June 02, 2014, 17:44:00
This topic appears to have strayed somewhat from the title. I'm currently sitting on a 1 1/2 first only set heading west out of SWI and there is loads of room. Though may not have been the case when leaving Paddington of course.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on June 02, 2014, 19:36:31
Like all these things - it is all or nothing. The train's origin may be helpful for a train at Reading, Swindon or Chippenham for example - but not so useful when standing at St Erth and waiting for an eastbound train to be told "This is the train from Penzance".
St Erth is actually one of a handful of stations which doesn't tell you the origin of the service. I don't think this is actually deliberate but just one of the many quirks of the CIS system. Bodmin Parkway is another which doesn't.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 03, 2014, 01:55:10
This topic appears to have strayed somewhat from the title. I'm currently sitting on a 1 1/2 first only set heading west out of SWI and there is loads of room. Though may not have been the case when leaving Paddington of course.

I also noticed this morning that the 7.58 ex-Swansea was much lighter loaded in first than was common prior to the meddling with advance ticket allocations and prices. Judging by my own anecdotal evidence of some of the former regulars in first from my local station, including myself, these "improvements" have convinced a significant number of people that first class not worth the extra now and some of these folk are are now taking up capacity in standard, thus partly nullifying the "extra" standard capacity. Well thought out DfT & FGW!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 03, 2014, 06:48:41
I'm sure some will decide that 1st is no longer worth it, but 'partly' is the key word in your post.  A handful of seats taken by former 1st class passengers but a whole carriage (in many cases) of extra standard class seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on June 03, 2014, 09:07:44
And even if a whole First Class carriage worth of people were to move to Standard Class you'd still have extra seats available because a Standard Class carriage has lots more seats that a First Class one.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on June 03, 2014, 09:59:30
I'm sure some will decide that 1st is no longer worth it, but 'partly' is the key word in your post.  A handful of seats taken by former 1st class passengers but a whole carriage (in many cases) of extra standard class seats.

There are other ways to travel. It's quite possible that many former 1st passengers will fly, drive or drive to a station much closer to London. Certainly this one no longer sees the train as the default option.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 03, 2014, 10:06:30
And even if a whole First Class carriage worth of people were to move to Standard Class you'd still have extra seats available because a Standard Class carriage has lots more seats that a First Class one.

Yes, but the difference in the number of seats is around 40 ish. However, if you left first class as it was in terms of seat numbers, but encourage more people into it from standard using cheap advance fares (which effectively costs nothing to implement), then you potentially free a similar number of seats in standard without the cost of the conversion...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 03, 2014, 10:12:33
You'll get more for selling 40ish seats in Standard than you will selling 15+ 1st class cheap


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 03, 2014, 10:15:40
I'm sure some will decide that 1st is no longer worth it, but 'partly' is the key word in your post.  A handful of seats taken by former 1st class passengers but a whole carriage (in many cases) of extra standard class seats.

There are other ways to travel. It's quite possible that many former 1st passengers will fly, drive or drive to a station much closer to London. Certainly this one no longer sees the train as the default option.

Same here, even accounting for some traffic delays the m4 is significantly quicker door to door for me and now they have withdrawn a lot of advance fares in standard & first very much cheaper...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 03, 2014, 10:20:39
You'll get more for selling 40ish seats in Standard than you will selling 15+ 1st class cheap

Depends on what you're comparing. My journey in standard now costs more than it did in first for the previous 2 years from when I started the commute. I'm sure had they offered the cheapest advance first class fares equal to or only slightly more than a standard fare, then first would've seen very much higher occupancy and we'd perhaps not now be discussing these changes!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 03, 2014, 10:42:57
But there are 25 more (ish) Standard seats - therefore the "little bit more than Standard" is surely eaten up by selling these additional seats?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 03, 2014, 12:13:51
Where are these 5car (bi-modes) going to come from? All those on order are already spoken for...
...and then some. There's alot of talk about running 10-car trains formed of 2 5-car bi-modes coupled. Personally, I can't see there being enough units to double up many services given that they plan to double the frequency of PAD-Bristol and use IEPs on an hourly semi-fast PAD-Westbury service.

10car (bi-modes only, don't forget - so on routes for that stock) are likely only in the peaks. Otherwise it's 9car electrics. Off-peak, it'll be 5car bi-modes, I'm sure. But double the frequency, you can halve the length of the train to get the same number of seats....so a 5car as 1 of the extra Bristol's (the one going to W-s-M) should be fine off-peak. And possibly peak too, as there are 3 other trains an hour.
(I wish people woukd read the consultation as its very clear in there what stock will be used on which services)
For those who haven't read the consultation (which I haven't yet done so in full), the route diagram it contains shows the following off-peak service pattern out of Paddington:
  • 2tph to Bristol via Bath (9-car 'electric' IEP)
  • 1tph to Weston Super Mare via Bristol Parkway (5-car bi-mode)
  • 1tph to Bristol via Bristol Parkway (mix of 5-car bi-mode and 9-car 'electric' IEP)
  • 1tph to Plymouth (with extensions to Penzance) (IC125)
  • 1tph to Westbury (with extensions to Exeter and Paignton) (5-car bi-mode)
  • 1tph to Cardiff (mix of 5-car bi-mode and 9-car 'electric' IEP)
  • 1tph to Swansea (mix of 5-car bi-mode and 9-car 'electric' IEP)
  • 1tph to Cheltenham Spa (5-car bi-mode)
  • 1tph to Worcester (with extensions to Hereford every 2hrs) (5-car bi-mode)
  • 1tph to Oxford (EMU, not IEP)
Note that the ONLY IEP route which will NEVER see 5-car units is PAD-Bristol via Bath. All the other routes (including South Wales, which won't have an enhanced frequency) are expected to have 5-car bi-modes diagramed on some workings.

I believe there are currently 49 IC125 diagrams + 4 180s (total 53), versus 18 9-car and 32 5-car + 14 retained IC125s (total 64) post-IEP. That's 11 diagrams more than now, BUT the additional Bristol Parkway services will require an extra 4, leaving 7. Worked out a different way, the services to be worked by IEPs of one form or annother ammount to 43 diagrams, which also gives me 7 diagrams left over. Those 7 leftover diagramed IEP units are all that is left to lengthen any of the 5-car services to 10-car. If the Worcester services are to be 10-car as far as Oxford, as some have suggested, that's three units off the 7. If the PAD-Oxford service listed as an EMU above is actually to be IEP worked that's another three units. So, if either of these are true, you have four units left to strengthen services on the Cotswolds, Cheltenahm, S.Wales or Bristol via Parkway routes. I don't think those 4 leftover units will be enough to ensure everything that needs to be longer than 5 coaches is longer than five coaches.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 03, 2014, 12:23:47
I think those three units to run Worcester's in the peaks will actually run (at least two of them) all the way through, at least that's the current feedback I'm getting.

Actually, I think you're pretty much there, with the 4 left-over under Hitachi's wing at any time being maintained. Remember, the agreement with Hitachi is meant to be watertight, in that whatever is agreed to be out will be out, but there's no call on the ones being maintained.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on June 03, 2014, 15:23:04
Out of all the trains I used to book cheap First Class Advance Tickets on I can only find one or two where Cheap 1ST Advance tickets are still available and 1 new train that I wouldn't usually consider booking.

A First Class Off Peak Return from Frome - Southend Stations is ^118.80 with a railcard. That's pretty expensive but on the greater scheme of things works out at ^59.40 each way.

With most First Class Advance Fares now being a minimum of ^45 each way. I think the FSR as much as it hurts me to say it is going to be my best option in future :-X :-\ :'( mainly for the flexibility and not being tied to specific trains.

Or I'll reinvest in a Gold Card and buy an FSR to NBY and SVR between RDG and SOV with Gold Card First Class supplements at ^5 each way...... ::)



My next concern with First Class section is the lack of toilets we could have available. Assuming we have Full Buffet (Coach K) and then Coach L (Former Coach H) that leaves 1 toilet in First Class... :-[ :-X

I wonder how many First Class Full Fare Payers would be happy about having to walk to Coach E or D to use a toilet if the only one in First was occupied or broken?

Me personally I just put up with it because I don't have much other choice. But on the few occasions I do PAD - LSK that would be incredibly annoying after a while >:(

One will of course hope that the Power Car side toilet is reinstalled or a toilet in Coach K is installed ;)


Key:
LSK = Liskeard
NBY = Newbury
PAD = London Paddington
RDG = Reading
SOV = Southend Victoria
FSR = First Class Off Peak Return
SVR = Standard Class Off Peak Return


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 03, 2014, 15:29:53
Or I'll reinvest in a Gold Card and buy an FSR to NBY and SVR between RDG and SOV with Gold Card First Class supplements at ^5 each way...... ::)

and what prey, between NBY & RDG? :-)

What's the cheapest Gold Card season you can get this year?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 03, 2014, 17:44:39
I believe there are currently 49 IC125 diagrams + 4 180s (total 53), versus 18 9-car and 32 5-car + 14 retained IC125s (total 64) post-IEP. That's 11 diagrams more than now, BUT the additional Bristol Parkway services will require an extra 4, leaving 7. Worked out a different way, the services to be worked by IEPs of one form or annother ammount to 43 diagrams, which also gives me 7 diagrams left over. Those 7 leftover diagramed IEP units are all that is left to lengthen any of the 5-car services to 10-car. If the Worcester services are to be 10-car as far as Oxford, as some have suggested, that's three units off the 7. If the PAD-Oxford service listed as an EMU above is actually to be IEP worked that's another three units. So, if either of these are true, you have four units left to strengthen services on the Cotswolds, Cheltenahm, S.Wales or Bristol via Parkway routes. I don't think those 4 leftover units will be enough to ensure everything that needs to be longer than 5 coaches is longer than five coaches.

Have you factored in the quite significant planned reduction in journey times and the implication that might have in terms of several diagrams as they currently stand possibly having the excess time created to squeeze in an extra trip?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 03, 2014, 18:33:31
If the PAD-Oxford service listed as an EMU above is actually to be IEP worked that's another three units.

Why should it not be an EMU, especially as they've shown it as an EMU on the diagram as well as NOT describing the Oxford terminators as IEP within any of the supporting text?   

What you appear to be doing is suggesting the diagram might be wrong simply to further your own agenda...

Paul



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 04, 2014, 11:08:07
Why should it not be an EMU, especially as they've shown it as an EMU on the diagram as well as NOT describing the Oxford terminators as IEP within any of the supporting text?
Because (I think) there are currently 2tph to Oxford using INTERCITY stock, and the only EMUs on the franchise (unless you count 'electric' IEP as an EMU) are likely to be outer-suburban stock similar to 377s or 350s. Also, the person constructing the diagram could have put 'EMU' by mistake when meaning 'electric' IEP.

My figure of four units left for strengthening elsewhere is still valid if we assume the diagram is correct (and therefore that they really are planning to downgrade Oxford from INTERCITY to outer-suburban trains, other than Worcester/Hereford services) and that the Worcester/Hereford will be 10-car between Oxford and PAD.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 04, 2014, 11:38:25
fyi, 3 lanes at WOS are being converted for 10car bi-modes.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 04, 2014, 12:03:58
Why should it not be an EMU, especially as they've shown it as an EMU on the diagram as well as NOT describing the Oxford terminators as IEP within any of the supporting text?
Because (I think) there are currently 2tph to Oxford using INTERCITY stock, and the only EMUs on the franchise (unless you count 'electric' IEP as an EMU) are likely to be outer-suburban stock similar to 377s or 350s. Also, the person constructing the diagram could have put 'EMU' by mistake when meaning 'electric' IEP.

My figure of four units left for strengthening elsewhere is still valid if we assume the diagram is correct (and therefore that they really are planning to downgrade Oxford from INTERCITY to outer-suburban trains, other than Worcester/Hereford services) and that the Worcester/Hereford will be 10-car between Oxford and PAD.

No attempt to answer my question I see, but I have to agree with Paul in that the diagram and associated text clearly refer to 'EMU's' whereas all other services on that diagram are specified as 'IEP' in one of their two forms.  To describe the current Oxford to London service as using 'InterCity' stock is misleading, when many of the fast trains (well over a third throughout the day and the majority of off-peak services) are currently provided by Turbos. The only logical conclusion is that outer-suburban EMUs will be operating one of the 2tph on the Oxford to London route, with the possible exception of the odd service in the peak hours - though with the IEP diagrams stretched, I can even see those being provided by 8 (or even 12) car EMUs.

fyi, 3 lanes at WOS are being converted for 10car bi-modes.

By three lanes, I guess we're talking about the Long Siding and Hereford Sidings 1 and 3?  All of those are currently long enough to take a 260m long train, so minor works on walking routes and so on will be all that's needed, except the Long Siding which might need extending by 20m or so.  It'll then renamed 'Even Longer Siding' presumably.   ;)

I can see many potential problems with running 2x5 car trains on Cotswold Line stations that can only take six carriages at each platform though!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 04, 2014, 12:18:53
The electric hook-ups all need installing along the length of the sidings.

SDO on both sets will likely mean a 'half & half' stop - the rear half of the front set & the front half of the second on the platforms.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 04, 2014, 13:17:47
Because (I think) there are currently 2tph to Oxford using INTERCITY stock, and the only EMUs on the franchise (unless you count 'electric' IEP as an EMU) are likely to be outer-suburban stock similar to 377s or 350s. Also, the person constructing the diagram could have put 'EMU' by mistake when meaning 'electric' IEP.

Oxford only has a few HSTs today because they don't have enough Turbos. 

It's described in the consultation as an 'LTV route' and outer suburban stock will be just fine, running in up to 12 car formations as they describe in the document.  Just like Cambridge - which will be getting 12 car Thameslink services. 

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 04, 2014, 15:16:54
No attempt to answer my question I see
Sorry, this one?:
Have you factored in the quite significant planned reduction in journey times and the implication that might have in terms of several diagrams as they currently stand possibly having the excess time created to squeeze in an extra trip?
If so, the answer is I don't think I did. As far as I can remember, only a few headline figures were published and there were some doubts raised about whether these were acheivable on a regular basis. I don't remember, but I don't think the press releases made clear whether the significant time savings applied to the regular service pattern or just the fastest express trip timetabled. While I doubt the differential between GWML services will be as high as the current 'Flying Scotsman' (which seems to be 18 minutes faster than the next fastest Edinburgh to Kings Cross service), the heading time savings might have been based on services with a reduced calling pattern. While I don't doubt that journey times will be reduced, I assumed this would not be by enough to save units. That said, the consultation's service diagram does show the PAD-SWA services as having fewer stops than today, so maybe the claimed time savings to south Wales at least will turn out to be accurate after all.

To describe the current Oxford to London service as using 'InterCity' stock is misleading, when many of the fast trains (well over a third throughout the day and the majority of off-peak services) are currently provided by Turbos.
Oxford only has a few HSTs today because they don't have enough Turbos.
Appologies, I thought there were 2tph PAD-Oxford fasts (one terminating at Oxford and formed of IC125s, the other running through to the Cotswolds in most hours with a mix of IC125s, 180s and (where necessary due to a lack of 180s) Turbos), with the Turbos on PAD-Oxford stopping services.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 04, 2014, 15:37:09
Thanks for the reply, Rhydgaled.

I think we can therefore take your figure of seven 'spares' as an absolute worst-case scenario in terms of doubling up of Bi-mode IEP's then, with there being a likelihood of more than that depending on how intense the diagrams are and what additional trips can be added thanks to journey time reductions.  Basically, it's impossible to be accurate!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 04, 2014, 15:42:32
According to a Balfour Beatty press release I saw earlier, they refer to 4 extra paths an hour - don't know if that helps?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on June 04, 2014, 18:46:57
This thread has gone completely off topic. Perhaps the moderators could split off the discussion on services post IEP into a separate thread?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 04, 2014, 20:05:31
Fair comment, John R - I'll work on that this evening.  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on June 04, 2014, 22:51:44
Just to take it back on topic a bit (and with apologies to Chris if he is currently mid splitting topics).. First Class on the 7.59 from Maidenhead to Paddington this morning was full. No ticket check as usual so hard to tell if it should have been full or not.. I did notice the 7.08 departure was cancelled so may have been a result of that but most likely not due to the gap between the two trains..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 05, 2014, 05:46:18
Just to take it back on topic a bit (and with apologies to Chris if he is currently mid splitting topics).. First Class on the 7.59 from Maidenhead to Paddington this morning was full. No ticket check as usual so hard to tell if it should have been full or not.. I did notice the 7.08 departure was cancelled so may have been a result of that but most likely not due to the gap between the two trains..

Thanks for getting it back on topic!  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 05, 2014, 08:10:31
I noted with interest that there is a slide from FGW in Graham's thread about community rail which states "additional standard class seats on HSTs and first class improvements". How anyone could seriously present the removal of the quiet carriage, less seats and restricted advance tickets represents as an improvement, I do not know!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 05, 2014, 11:58:28
I noted with interest that there is a slide from FGW in Graham's thread about community rail which states "additional standard class seats on HSTs and first class improvements". How anyone could seriously present the removal of the quiet carriage, less seats and restricted advance tickets represents as an improvement, I do not know!
Isn't the remaining First class supposed to be being refurbished? If so, that would be what was meant by 'improvements'.

I note that Modern Railways has reported that first class to standard class conversions will also happen on Greater Anglia, in that case a reduction of 0.5 carriages by convertion of buffet cars from first to standard (as GNER did to the IC225 sets during the Mallard refurbishment).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 05, 2014, 12:24:49
I note that Modern Railways has reported that first class to standard class conversions will also happen on Greater Anglia, in that case a reduction of 0.5 carriages by convertion of buffet cars from first to standard (as GNER did to the IC225 sets during the Mallard refurbishment).
Yes, over the course of the next year I believe it is supposed to be refreshed but apart from new seats, tables and soft furnishings, I very much doubt there will be any significant improvements to the offering.

Interesting that another franchise is heading in the same direction. I wonder if the same will happen to the all of the long distance operators in due course?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 05, 2014, 12:37:50
I wonder if the same will happen to the all of the long distance operators in due course?

The remaining un-extended Pendolino's on the WCML with nine carriages, four of which are first class are an obvious candidate.  Coach G could be converted to Standard Class giving an extra 76 seats, an increase from a paltry 294 to 370 Standard Class seats throughout the train, and there would still be 100 First Class seats throughout the remaining three carriages.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 05, 2014, 12:54:12
Yes, the 9 car pendolinos are a bit ridiculous, but I think that's partly a hangover from BR days - I always remember the Manchester & Liverpool trains were often almost 50/50 first to standard. Indeed back in the day there were two (IIRC) Pullman services running around in full first class config...

I've not travelled on the west coast for a couple of years but Virgin did (do?) at least offer a wide range of good value advance fares and an excellent level of service - full meal service, free wifi etc - which is well worth paying a bit extra for, as long as you make use of it of course!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on June 06, 2014, 16:27:13
Ok. I have finally gotten my fins on that document which states the following:

Micro Buffet Sets:

  • 43
  • TGS - 67 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TSMB - 70 Standard Class Seats
  • TC - 39 Standard Class Seats - 24 First Class Seats
  • TF - 47 First Class Seats
  • 43

504 Standard Class Seats
71 First Class Seats

Full Buffet Sets:

  • 43
  • TGS - 67 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TS - 80 Standard Class Seats (Assume Extra Tables)
  • TS - 82 Standard Class Seats
  • TFRB - 24 First Class Seats (Assuming a Full Buffet will carry less seats)
  • TF - 47 First Class Seats
  • 43

475 Standard Class Seats
71 First Class Seats


In addition to the above:

  • Power Sockets rotated 45 Degrees to accommodate different size adapters
  • 2x USB Power Points at each seat
  • Power Sockets at Wheelchair Space and Companion Seat
  • Privacy Screens Between the overhead luggage rack and floor covering half a bay of seats
  • New Headrest design to provide additional privacy when sat next to another customer which with less seats may become more commonplace
  • Voyager Style Push Button Door between First and Standard Class in TC Carriages (Not Floorpads)
  • New Carpets and Curtains
  • LED Lighting at tables**
  • Individual Airline Seats in First Class
  • New Tables

** This is personal opinion from what I deduced from a Black and White Mockup Photograph

HST Sets:

  • 18 HST Sets will have a TSMB and TC
  • 35 HST Sets will have a TFRB

In Standard Class there was mention of 8 Tables in a Standard Class Carriage rather than 4 following customer feedback.

Free WiFi for both First and Standard Class Passengers provided by Nomad Digital.

The Headrest is based on a design from Boeing which changes the customers perception by affecting what is in their peripheral field of vision when seated. This supposively fools the brain into how they feel seated based on what they can see rather than feel.

Finally and this will be seen with much relieve I am sure. The document stated the following: "In the unlikely event of a First Class Seat not being available then the passenger will be entitled to the difference between First and Standard Class Fares"

Can we put that one to bed now please? :-X ;D :D



My personal views on the above:

USB Power Chargers at seats. Excellent idea and I have thought about suggesting this for a while but can see many reasons why not to do it also. Looks like FGW have gone one step further than thinking it so this has my complete support. Downside is it doesn't take much to break a USB Port. So I can see these getting damaged fairly easily. The more you put a device in and out over time the port degrades so with frequent use these will break or just not work. The worry also is if the USB surges it can blow the device you're trying to charge. You DO NOT want to holding your phone if the battery explodes (Ok that is EXTREMELY rare but can happen)

Now the headrest is going to be my biggest bugbear I can see for several reasons.

My biggest bugbear will be perceived claustrophobia. Especially in the Window Seat. I can get away with sitting in the window with Ladyfriend Trout... That may not be the case anymore :(

It is going to make it a potential sod if you want to talk to the person sat next to you!

Privacy screen, Window and Headrest with ears. Seems quite cosy to me... Then your phone rings? I guess you might forget everyone else inside the carriage... Wonder how long before there is an argument between 'the suits'

Also, Most passengers don't sit back in the seats but lean forward on the table. Rendering the headrest almost pointless.

Lets go dark now (and I know for a fact I won't be the only one)... If I know I am on my own or there is no-one immediately around... I will talk to 'the voices' as it's just easier than trying to fight/ignore them... This headrest could potentially be my arch nemesis!

I know for a fact that of 2 passengers I see occasionally in First are Psychotic. Trade secret? They're the nice folk who keep a mobile phone conversation going in box tunnel ;)

Now you'll note in all the above in my personal view I have used my most hated words "Could" and "May" ... I haven't seen the real thing yet so I can only judge fully when I've travelled. Rest assured I will no doubt write a review on the new seating when I get an opportunity to travel.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 06, 2014, 23:53:26
Have FirstGW lost an IC125 set permenantly, or is my rolling stock spreadsheet wrong? I have it as 19 micro-buffet sets in the fleet, plus 35 with full buffets making 54 sets.  thetrout's post above suggests one less micro-buffet set.

Also, my spreadsheet has the current capacity of the full-buffet at 17 seats. Have they really managed to squeese another 7 first class seats into the buffet cars? And one more thing, I have the current Coach C down as a TS(D) with only 70 seats (and, presumably, a disabled-access toilet), thetrout's information suggests the disabled-access toilet has gone missing (assuming there is one currently of course) or they're going to have a 'short persons carriage' with even less legroom to allow all the TS vehicles to have 80-82 seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Brucey on June 09, 2014, 22:01:33
I have split off a number of posts regarding plugs, USB cables and fuses into a new topic.

This leaves thetrout's post fitting into both.  As it can only exist in one place, I have posted a quote of it below:
Have FirstGW lost an IC125 set permenantly, or is my rolling stock spreadsheet wrong? I have it as 19 micro-buffet sets in the fleet, plus 35 with full buffets making 54 sets.  thetrout's post above suggests one less micro-buffet set.

The document may have had a typo. Or I made a typo when taking notes (Which I suck at anyway so is probable). It was an internal FGW document and FGW's proofreading skills have in the past left alot to be desired... ::)

Quote
Also, my spreadsheet has the current capacity of the full-buffet at 17 seats. Have they really managed to squeese another 7 first class seats into the buffet cars? And one more thing, I have the current Coach C down as a TS(D) with only 70 seats (and, presumably, a disabled-access toilet), thetrout's information suggests the disabled-access toilet has gone missing (assuming there is one currently of course) or they're going to have a 'short persons carriage' with even less legroom to allow all the TS vehicles to have 80-82 seats.

I flagged this up when looking at the document myself! Both of these things infact!

The Disabled Access Carriage (TSD) I spotted immediately as I knew it didn't have 82 seats. It was suggested that FGW are including the Flip Down Seats opposite the disabled toilet and elsewhere in that area in the whole number. I was not inclined to agree and think this is an inadvertent oversight.

Unless FGW plan to remove the disabled toilet from Coach C... Can't see that being popular amongst Disability Rights Campaigners at all... So I am not even going to suggest FGW might even consider such a thing!

I also doubt that 24 seats will be fitted into a full kitchen which leaves 1 of 2 possibilities.

FGW are reducing the kitchen sizes in the Buffet (Seriously unlikely in my opinion considering the hard marketing of the Pullman and slowly improving of the Travelling Chef services)

So I think it's another oversight as someone hasn't taken into account some Buffet Cars only have 17 seats.

Rhydgaled, do you know how many full size Buffets FGW have in their fleet? I think I will edit my original post as a speculation that FGW have got that slightly wrong.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 17, 2014, 06:02:14
Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on June 17, 2014, 08:23:25
Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.

Did they explain why?  Other than that they are deliberately obstinate and despise their customers?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 08:48:11
Apologies if this has been noted before but I saw it confirmed by FGW on their Twitter page that there will no longer be a 1st class Quiet carriage.

Did they explain why?  Other than that they are deliberately obstinate and despise their customers?

I seem to recall from way back in the thread that the justification was something to do with the design of the new seats, as if that influences people's behaviour!

I for one have given up on using the train for the time being partly as a result of this meddling with first class and the changing availability of advance fares in both classes which has driven the cost of a rail commute to uneconomic levels when compared to driving...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on June 17, 2014, 09:05:26
I trust the 1st Class provision when driving is much better then.  ???

And the decision to return to using the car was based on the availability of Advance Purchase fares on a commuter flow? Is/was a Season Ticket not an option?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 10:59:39
I trust the 1st Class provision when driving is much better then.  ???

And the decision to return to using the car was based on the availability of Advance Purchase fares on a commuter flow? Is/was a Season Ticket not an option?

Yes, it is much better so far! Nice comfy seat and 5 all to myself even though I can only really use one, just like in first class!  ;)

As long as the M4 is incident free it is a full hour quicker as I don't have to double back on myself for an hour on the Underground and offers me a lot more flexibility in terms of when I can travel. I will probably continue to use the trains once or twice a month perhaps for a bit of variety and a break from driving, but it is a happy feeling not to be so reliant on the rail system!

No, I'm a weekly long distance commuter so a season ticket isn't an option for me. One can be bought but BGN-PAD annually is ^12084 in STD or ^24772 for first, so that's certainly not a cost effective option for a weekly commute and it's just a bit too long to do daily which is the only way to make a season ticket work...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 17, 2014, 11:11:10
It's clear that the whole issue of creating more Standard class space by taking the easy option of "recycling" First class accomodation, whilst on the face of it a logical solution, was not subject to a full impact assessment in the context of First class passengers who are now missing out.

I think it's called the law of unintended consequences but most of the problems that have been created were foreseeable.

Whilst there may now be more standard class seats, there is little doubt that high revenue generating First class passengers are being alienated and turning to their cars instead as the quality of the Premium service has been reduced.

The baby would appear to have been chucked out with the bathwater.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2014, 11:17:27
Evidence from just a couple isn't a very good guide!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2014, 11:27:47
I agree with ChrisB - a couple of moans on here and elsewhere before the conversion work has barely started, is really not a true indication of how outraged the typical First Class passenger is, and how many (in percentage terms) will suddenly be getting their car out of the driveway all the time instead.

However, I will say that I'm a little surprised that a quiet zone, even if just half a carriage worth, won't be reinstated on carriages after the conversion work has been completed.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2014, 11:36:38
I suspect they may reconsider once the work is complete, but that's a couple of timetables away...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on June 17, 2014, 11:37:15
Although I've not had to travel to London as often in the past year, between 2009-13 I was undertaking Exeter - London as frequently as two return trips per week.

I really appreciated the First Class environment and the ability to stretch out and work in a quiet environment. And for me, that is a single seat in G with no-one opposite me (until perhaps Reading).

Selfish? I remember once paying over ^160 for a single 2.2 hour journey.

If I'm going to be packed into a metal tube with people left, right and centre of me then I may as well fly, or even better, drive to Heathrow and take the Heathrow Express.

It's a shame, because the train is the green option and I used to enjoy my journeys (except the odd delayed journey/four hour wait at Paddington). But it was a winter of discontent on the London service with flooding followed by diversions followed by the sea wall. And now Boeing-style seats are supposed to compensate for having Dave from accounts yelling into his mobile inches from my face?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2014, 11:39:06
Not if you continue to take your single seat....you won't even get anyone staring at you from Reading as those will be airline....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 11:47:14
In full agreement with Umberleigh.

The only benefit for me in first was additional space in the quiet carriage. Apart from that there is little else to justify the additional cost, particularly if you compare to something like the Pendolino offering by Virgin. Full meal service, quiet carriage, modern trains etc etc


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2014, 11:53:27
Isn't the First Class service offering being revamped at the end of the conversion work?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2014, 11:58:37
if you compare to something like the Pendolino offering by Virgin. Full meal service, quiet carriage, modern trains etc etc

Which, strange you should mention it, I am doing exactly this on Thursday - ^50 return to Glasgow, 1st class.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 12:21:31
Isn't the First Class service offering being revamped at the end of the conversion work?

I've not seen anything to suggest any changes other than the refreshed interiors. Common sense would tell you that if they had plans for a much improved service level that they would publicise accordingly in order to placate customers during the disruption of the changes.

I have serious doubts as to whether had 'full service' environment is ever likely to be restored, even post electrification, unless some radical new operator is installed on the franchise...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 12:24:34
if you compare to something like the Pendolino offering by Virgin. Full meal service, quiet carriage, modern trains etc etc

Which, strange you should mention it, I am doing exactly this on Thursday - ^50 return to Glasgow, 1st class.

Wow, that is a good price, something only to dream of in FGW land! Is that starting from Euston?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 17, 2014, 12:34:34
yep....they did an Spring offer a month or so ago for travel before July. ^25 e/w I got.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 12:41:13
And that is a clear demonstration of how to make best use of your first class accommodation without the expense of refreshing rolling stock only for most of it to be scrapped in 5 years time!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on June 17, 2014, 13:40:52
I still think that the downgrading of first class is a politicly inspired decision as a result of MPs no longer being allowed in first at the public expense.

Had MPs still been allowed first class then I suspect that it would be a "valuable service for business customers" and "a vital part of ensuring that the West remains competitive" and "helps attract the better of visitors who spend more in the West and help protect local jobs"

I think that MPs should be allowed first class, not because they deserve it, but to stop this sort of downgrading.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2014, 14:03:19
Isn't the First Class service offering being revamped at the end of the conversion work?
I've not seen anything to suggest any changes other than the refreshed interiors.

I thought I remembered reading something, perhaps I'm mistaken though.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 14:13:21
I still think that the downgrading of first class is a politicly inspired decision as a result of MPs no longer being allowed in first at the public expense.

Had MPs still been allowed first class then I suspect that it would be a "valuable service for business customers" and "a vital part of ensuring that the West remains competitive" and "helps attract the better of visitors who spend more in the West and help protect local jobs"

I think that MPs should be allowed first class, not because they deserve it, but to stop this sort of downgrading.

I have also seen it suggested that the announcement of the changes to first class rather conveniently coincided with the announcement of the annual increase in regulated fares...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 14:22:19

I thought I remembered reading something, perhaps I'm mistaken though.

I've just found the FGW press release from 14th March this year and it doesn't mention anything apart from the interior refresh and is titled "More standard class seats and a refreshed first class environment" which implies no change apart from the refresh.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: The Tall Controller on June 17, 2014, 18:07:26
On a side note, an HST set is now running around with the new first class seats fitted. They look and feel great on first inspection. Hope to see more floating around as time progresses. Will attach a photo later today hopefully but for the meantime you can see my photo on Twitter by looking up @FGWBodminPway (The first and only FGW station currently on Twitter!)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on June 17, 2014, 20:26:56
Thanks Rob T :)

I took a look and they do look quite smart... I still feel my comments earlier however may be slightly justified. But until i've sat in the flesh I will keep that as an opinion piece.

Here is the picture for you all:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqWO1woIcAEoLp0.jpg:large)

Credits to Rob T / @FGWBodminPway (https://twitter.com/FGWBodminPway) of course ;)

For reference my comments were:

Quote
  • It is going to make it a potential sod if you want to talk to the person sat next to you!
  • Also, Most passengers don't sit back in the seats but lean forward on the table. Rendering the headrest almost pointless.
  • Lets go dark now (and I know for a fact I won't be the only one)... If I know I am on my own or there is no-one immediately around... I will talk to 'the voices' as it's just easier than trying to fight/ignore them...

Looking at the above picture... I think some of those will be baseless concerns now.

Also the other amendments appear have not been made it seems from that picture. Just had the new seats fitted ;)

Rob, do you know which Set/HST Power Cars this one is running on please?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: The Tall Controller on June 17, 2014, 20:42:03
The set in question is currently forming the 1739 ex PNZ which is currently at Exeter St Davids


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 17, 2014, 21:14:04
Strange that there appears to be 2 slightly different designs of seat there. They look just like the 'current' seat that has been re-covered and fitted with a different headrest.

Slight side point regards to different seat designs - I never did work out why one seat of the 'fours' was/is blue, does anyone know why?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on June 17, 2014, 21:52:50
The set in question is currently forming the 1739 ex PNZ which is currently at Exeter St Davids

DAMMIT! That's 1A35... I was going to catch that today as well >:( :-X ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on June 17, 2014, 22:10:44
This looks like the coach with just one bay of 4 fitted, which has been around for a few weeks now? That might be why none of the other changes have been done.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on June 17, 2014, 23:10:07
These things are prone to change - but if everything went to plan that set must be one of the sets with a full kitchen as it would have worked the 12:06 PAD to PNZ before the 17:39 - and that has a Pullman on it.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on June 17, 2014, 23:20:04
Not if you continue to take your single seat....you won't even get anyone staring at you from Reading as those will be airline....

Which is good for privacy but also means losing the table space. Also will ensure these seats are snapped up first as everyone loves a single seat (my experience on CrossCountry).

To be honest, my biggest concern is not getting a seat at all, and the loss of the attractive First Advance fares, as unfortunately I'm not on unlimited expenses.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 17, 2014, 23:45:18
Strange that there appears to be 2 slightly different designs of seat there

...

Slight side point regards to different seat designs - I never did work out why one seat of the 'fours' was/is blue, does anyone know why?
Indeed, the designs do appear slightly different and I too would be interested to know why some trains have a mixture of different coloured seats (I don't travel First class often, so I think I'm thinking of VT, XC or EC standard class, I forget which has a mixture of seat colours). I don't think the chairs are any different, apart from the colour, otherwise I would suspect it was an implementation of the 'Different Chairs' Design Pattern:
Quote from: Architect Christopher Alexander
People are different sizes; they sit in different ways. And yet there is a tendency in modern times to make all chairs alike.
... therefore
Never furnish any place with chairs that are identically the same. Choose a variety of different chairs, some big, some small, some softer than others some rockers some very old, some new, with arms, without arms, some wicker, some wood, some cloth.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 18, 2014, 13:41:09
I thought I remembered reading something, perhaps I'm mistaken though.

I've just found the FGW press release from 14th March this year and it doesn't mention anything apart from the interior refresh and is titled "More standard class seats and a refreshed first class environment" which implies no change apart from the refresh.

Possibly an internal document then?  Time will tell I suppose.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 19, 2014, 08:36:06
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27917711 (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27917711)

Virgin has won an additional 2 years and 9 months on its west coast franchise and is also going down the route (coerced by DfT again?) of converting some first class seating to standard. Somewhat more understandable with the Pendolinos having proportionally much more first class accommodation but beginning to look as if this is a policy that will reach through the whole rail network in time & perhaps could affect the look of any new rolling stock?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 19, 2014, 09:01:17
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27917711 (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27917711)

Virgin has won an additional 2 years and 9 months on its west coast franchise and is also going down the route (coerced by DfT again?) of converting some first class seating to standard. Somewhat more understandable with the Pendolinos having proportionally much more first class accommodation but beginning to look as if this is a policy that will reach through the whole rail network in time & perhaps could affect the look of any new rolling stock?
Leaving the 9 car sets with a higher proportion of first to the 11 car trains was a bit odd. They will be much nearer the same proportions after this change, but 4 of 11 or 3 of 9 are still much higher numbers of FC than FGW. 

Anyone know what ECML have in their 9 car trains?

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 19, 2014, 09:41:13
The advantage that Virgin/East Coast have is that they don't have to stop for a commuter pick up/set down just 25 minutes before/after arriving/leaving London.

If they had to, I suspect the DfT would have them doing an FGW


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on June 19, 2014, 11:47:52
In a BBC interview this morning, Robert Goodwill explicitly said that 'standard class being crowded' and 'MPs only being able to travel standard class'. Although both these two statements are true, saying them together made this action look terribly self-serving.

His justification of not tendering came across as awful, more or less saying that as Virgin is doing a good enough job they should carry on. Look like he needs more media training.

The puzzle is why he was interviewed rather than Stephen Hammond or Patrick McLoughlin.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 19, 2014, 11:52:04
Holiday season....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on June 19, 2014, 13:16:50
Anyone know what ECML have in their 9 car trains?

Paul
3 FC/5.5 SC in the 91+MK4 sets.
2.5 FC/6 SC in the HSTs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on June 19, 2014, 17:18:24
The advantage that Virgin/East Coast have is that they don't have to stop for a commuter pick up/set down just 25 minutes before/after arriving/leaving London.

If they had to, I suspect the DfT would have them doing an FGW

Ummm, what about Watford Junction ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 19, 2014, 17:31:58
Watford Jn has full pick up only (northbound) and set down only (southbound) restrictions for Virgin services, and they do seem to be fairly rigorously enforced...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on June 19, 2014, 17:40:10
Virgin is no use for London commuting to/from Watford Junction. Set down only southbound and pick up only northbound.

Milton Keynes would also not be a good comparator to Reading. It has no London bound Virgin services calling between 0714 and 0847 and no Euston departures calling MKC between 1643 to 1843.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 19, 2014, 20:14:52
Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on June 19, 2014, 20:22:27
Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Well - they could always split the franchise into two - have one called - say "Great Western" which does the thing that Virgin train does and runs non-stop quite a long way, and one called - say "Thames Trains" which does the thing that London Midland does and runs out to Reading and Oxford and a bit beyond.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on June 19, 2014, 20:28:04
Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Great Western don't have 110mph 8 car interurban trains to provide a peak commuter service.

Another major difference between Reading and Watford/Milton Keynes is the connections. Reading provides services to far more destinations which, I think, warrants the calling pattern of the long distance services. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 19, 2014, 20:50:17
Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Great Western don't have 110mph 8 car interurban trains to provide a peak commuter service.

Another major difference between Reading and Watford/Milton Keynes is the connections. Reading provides services to far more destinations which, I think, warrants the calling pattern of the long distance services. 

Assuming no rolling stock supply limitations, I think at least outbound expresses could non stop Reading as most destinations are served from another London terminus. Commuters and those wishing to interchange at Reading could be served by semi-fast services as per London Midland which would only increase journey times by a relatively small amount. I do hope for future users of this railway that there is a proper review/revamp of the timetable when IEP comes along.

Apologies, I've just contributed to this thread drifting again...!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Southern Stag on June 19, 2014, 21:03:04
It's not just rolling stock limitations, its pathing limitations too. There's only so many trains that can run down the fast lines and through Reading, and most paths are already used by long distance services, and post IEP there will be an increase in the number of fast services. The limited capacity means there won't be enough fast commuter services to Reading to satisfy demand on there own. You use London Midland as an example. London Midland only operate 3 services an hour out of Euston on the fast lines in the Off-Peak period. 3 services on there own each hour would never be enough to serve Reading.

A significant number of people do change trains at Reading. For stations between Ealing Broadway and Twyford you need to change at Reading, travelling via London will probably take longer and will cost extra. Any passengers heading for stations towards Bracknell, Ascot etc or Guildford and Gatwick need to change at Reading. Similarly any passengers coming up from via Newbury and heading towards Swindon or Oxford and vice versa. I travel from Guildford to Cornwall fairly often. Changing at Reading is by far the easiest and quickest option. It would be the same if I was heading to Bristol or South Wales.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 19, 2014, 21:56:12
It's not just rolling stock limitations, its pathing limitations too. There's only so many trains that can run down the fast lines and through Reading, and most paths are already used by long distance services, and post IEP there will be an increase in the number of fast services. The limited capacity means there won't be enough fast commuter services to Reading to satisfy demand on there own. You use London Midland as an example. London Midland only operate 3 services an hour out of Euston on the fast lines in the Off-Peak period. 3 services on there own each hour would never be enough to serve Reading.

A significant number of people do change trains at Reading. For stations between Ealing Broadway and Twyford you need to change at Reading, travelling via London will probably take longer and will cost extra. Any passengers heading for stations towards Bracknell, Ascot etc or Guildford and Gatwick need to change at Reading. Similarly any passengers coming up from via Newbury and heading towards Swindon or Oxford and vice versa. I travel from Guildford to Cornwall fairly often. Changing at Reading is by far the easiest and quickest option. It would be the same if I was heading to Bristol or South Wales.

It needs an in depth analysis of available data in order to look at the timetable and make suitable provisions for the arrival of the new trains. They did a radical overhaul for WCML, so why not western mainline? Plenty of people who used to be able to get a direct train now have to change or experience slightly extended journey times and it seems to work pretty well and is a similar model employed in many other countries. There seem to be too many 'limitations' to find when the rail industry should be asking themselves how to solve and over come these limitations rather than viewing them as an impenetrable brick wall.

A common gripe amongst long distance travellers is the Reading commuters, so more effort ought to be made to separate these two flows of passengers, as has been done on the west coast.

A major advantage Lon Midland have is they tend to operate 8 car EMUs vs FGW DMUs typically providing no more than a 6 car train, so already they're providing about 1/3 more capacity. My comments were, as stated, not based on current stock availability.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 20, 2014, 11:55:29
Well - they could always split the franchise into two - have one called - say "Great Western" which does the thing that Virgin train does and runs non-stop quite a long way, and one called - say "Thames Trains" which does the thing that London Midland does and runs out to Reading and Oxford and a bit beyond.

Say it's called "Crossrail", and you're getting close.

With the IEPs/Bi-modes plus EMUs and Crossrail, I'd say the time was ripe to start thinking almost outside the box and splitting the Reading commuters away like Virgin do with Milton Keynes pax in the peaks. You can't get a non-stop MK train in the peak....and 12car EMUs are likely post-electrification. Some may even choose Crossrail.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on June 20, 2014, 22:16:29
On the subject of the thread (!) there was an item on ITV Westcountry news tonight (20/06/14) about all the extra seats to be enjoyed by long-suffering passsengers, including shots of the 'luxury seats' (their words) being 'ripped out' (also their words) over images if the careful removal of FGW 1st Class seats, presumably at Kilmarnock. 

Available here for a short time:

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 20, 2014, 22:34:10
On the subject of the thread (!) there was an item on ITV Westcountry news tonight (20/06/14) about all the extra seats to be enjoyed by long-suffering passsengers, including shots of the 'luxury seats' (their words) being 'ripped out' (also their words) over images if the careful removal of FGW 1st Class seats, presumably at Kilmarnock. 

Available here for a short time:

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/

I think the comment about civil servants says it all!

I have also never seen an 'almost empty' first class carriage on a Swansea service departing Paddington, certainly not until the train has off-loaded in Cardiff.

And according to that report, the capacity is going down from 3 carriages (on every train, really?!) of First to 2 or 2.5...poor reporting, it's not exactly difficult to find out correct and accurate information!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on June 20, 2014, 22:42:16
The advantage that Virgin/East Coast have is that they don't have to stop for a commuter pick up/set down just 25 minutes before/after arriving/leaving London.

If they had to, I suspect the DfT would have them doing an FGW

Stevenage on East Coast?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on June 21, 2014, 08:11:02
I have also never seen an 'almost empty' first class carriage on a Swansea service departing Paddington, certainly not until the train has off-loaded in Cardiff.
You could also say that about almost all services to the West Country.

Quote
And according to that report, the capacity is going down from 3 carriages (on every train, really?!) of First to 2 or 2.5...poor reporting, it's not exactly difficult to find out correct and accurate information!!
Agreed sloppy reporting there. Should be 1.5 and in some cases (pedant alert) 1.4 on services with full kitchen buffet provision. Interesting to note that they interviewed passengers at Reading where they were guaranteed to get comments about overcrowding and the 'empty' First Class carriages.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on June 21, 2014, 08:55:02
I've had an email from FGW inviting me to participate in a survey about first class travel. Amazingly, whilst it was a fairly long survey, with multiple questions about which end of the train first class should be, and multiple questions asking about onboard services, there was no question as to the presence or otherwise of a quiet carriage, and no free form box for "any other comments" at the end of the questionnaire.

I was left with the feeling the researchers were told "don't include anything on the quiet carriage" as we won't like the answer and won't do anything about it anyway.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Electric train on June 21, 2014, 10:18:31
Milton Keynes, Watford and Stevenage do not compare to Reading at all; Reading has a complexity of connecting services, the entry exit figure at Reading make Milton Keynes, Watford Jcn and Stevenage look like branch line stations and that is not even looking at the interchange figures.

The facts are Reading is one of (if not the) busiest stations outside London.

A better comparison of figures would be to use Slough or Maidenhead for services to Watford, Milton Keynes and Stevenage
Entry / Exit figures for 2012/13
Reading           15,121,768
Milton Keynes     5,557,870
Watford Junction 5,183,730
Stevenage          4,338,702
Slough               5,573,708
Maidenhead        3,963,876


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on June 23, 2014, 07:16:43
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on June 23, 2014, 12:26:56
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


No comfort to you, but this was all so predictable.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: sprinterguard on June 23, 2014, 12:59:28
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


As long as you don't swear at the onboard staff; it is not an issue of our making!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on June 23, 2014, 13:14:08
Once all of the 'walk throughs' entered First Class to make sure they get off 10 milliseconds faster there were 30 people standing in the carriage.

I think it is pretty slack of the TM to hide at the back of the train, fully aware of the carnage at the front (because he made a special announcement about it), rather than speaking to passengers and checking tickets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on June 23, 2014, 13:31:57
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


Very poor, but predictable.
I believe that compensation is payable is one has to stand with a first class ticket. If however the train manager is hiding at the back, how is one to prove that one had to stand ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on June 23, 2014, 15:22:03
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


Very poor, but predictable.
I believe that compensation is payable is one has to stand with a first class ticket. If however the train manager is hiding at the back, how is one to prove that one had to stand ?


Yes, I regularly claim for this when applicable and no proof is needed.  I'd prefer a seat though...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 23, 2014, 15:36:21
...fully aware of the carnage at the front...

Hmm, [checks dictionary], so how many were killed?

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 23, 2014, 16:10:17
...fully aware of the carnage at the front...

Hmm, [checks dictionary], so how many were killed?

Paul

Paul I think that remark is in pretty poor taste to be honest, although I'm sure it wasn't intended to be.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on June 23, 2014, 16:25:45
...fully aware of the carnage at the front...

Hmm, [checks dictionary], so how many were killed?

Paul

Paul I think that remark is in pretty poor taste to be honest, although I'm sure it wasn't intended to be.

I think the point was, the definition of carnage is:  the slaughter of a great number of people, as in battle; butchery; massacre.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on June 23, 2014, 16:32:38
...fully aware of the carnage at the front...

Hmm, [checks dictionary], so how many were killed?

Paul

Paul I think that remark is in pretty poor taste to be honest, although I'm sure it wasn't intended to be.

It wasn't intended to be - it was meant to show the term originally used was exaggeration - pure and simple.  If anything it is the original use that was in poor taste, given the history of the line...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 23, 2014, 18:09:12
Hmm ...  :-\

I'd like to thank members here for their commendably polite discussion of that particular use of a potentially emotive word in this specific context.

A quick search on this forum shows that the word 'carnage' has often been used - not necessarily in its literal sense but also in a 'railway enthusiasts' sense - and I think that's what we are discussing here.

No offence intended, nor taken, hopefully.  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on June 23, 2014, 19:45:53
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


I understand your frustration, but if people are standing in First Class is it possible that the level of crowding in standard class made it difficult for the train manager to get from the back of the train?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Phil on June 23, 2014, 20:08:06
The meaning of words change, and it's often educational to watch the change in progress. "Awful" once meant exactly the opposite to today's meaning (i.e. "so wonderful, it inspires awe"). "Gay" up until the 1960s meant happy, cheerful, full of fun; it was then adopted as an alternative to "camp"; and nowadays in the hands of the young it's a derogatory term indicative of something nobody in their right mind would even begin to contemplate ("OMG!! I've never experienced ANYTHING so gay in all of my 13 years!!!!"). Carnage is a great example of a word currently in transition. Whereas once it was reserved for the description of unspeakable death and destruction, it's nowadays just as likely to be used to describe an unfortunate event or situation with seriously detrimental social consequences, usually involving drink.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on June 23, 2014, 20:23:23
Carnage is a great example of a word currently in transition. Whereas once it was reserved for the description of unspeakable death and destruction, it's nowadays just as likely to be used to describe an unfortunate event or situation with seriously detrimental social consequences, usually involving drink.
Just shows what a sheltered life I lead


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Electric train on June 23, 2014, 20:52:18
Unfortunately the reduction in First Class seats to increase the number of Standard Class seats is a political game to win voters in the Thames Valley, the current sitting MP's (who happen to be in Government at the moment) need to win voters, as we run up to the next election they will be able to herald the fact they have increased the number of seats on train services.

Or am I just being a cynic  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on June 23, 2014, 22:27:53
Maid-->Paddington has a 1.5 carriage First Class. 15 people including myself are standing.
It is infuriating.

Train manager is "at the back if you want him". I try really hard not to swear on this forum but I might have to quite soon.


I understand your frustration, but if people are standing in First Class is it possible that the level of crowding in standard class made it difficult for the train manager to get from the back of the train?

The train manager never/rarely  makes it through to first class from the back of the train once we leave Maidenhead.. Even if First class is at the rear of the train...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 24, 2014, 10:51:10
Anyone know what ECML have in their 9 car trains?

Paul
3 FC/5.5 SC in the 91+MK4 sets.
2.5 FC/6 SC in the HSTs.
Indeed. Personally, I think the mrk4 sets should also be 2.5 first and 6 standard. 2.5 coaches of First sounds about right to me, maybe because it is what the Great Western full buffet sets have/had.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 24, 2014, 11:40:26
6 Standard certainly sounds about right for a long distance train.  Which is why the 9-car Pendo's at 5 Standard and 4 First has always been a silly ratio - though it's common to see one of the First Class carriages declassified.  I'm still confident the HST refurbishment will prove to be a good idea after the dust settles and will solve more problems that the few occasional ones it creates.

Maidenhead commuters will, at a guess, probably not get an IEP service of any worth from 2017 and will instead end up with 8-car Electric EMU's providing their fast services.  Then, there might then be the argument of doing away with First Class altogether on those suburban style trains, as Chiltern has done with a little hostility to start with but now widely accepted of course - and they arguably passes through even more affluent areas than the Thames Valley corridor.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 24, 2014, 11:57:41
Agree with all of this - except they are slated as 12car EMUs in the peaks


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: adc82140 on June 24, 2014, 12:33:06
I agree with II- The 1st class overcrowding on certain trains was bound to happen after this, but I think it will all shake down in due course. The additional standard capacity may well convince many of the short distance 1st class season ticket holders (ie Maidenhead & Twyford) to downgrade at the next ticket renewal, thus freeing up space in 1st. I know that when I was a Maidenhead commuter, I had a 1st Eastbound ticket purely to get a seat, not for any of the 1st class perks (not that we ever saw a trolley on the 08:00 from Maidenhead). It'll be interesting to see how things pan out once we get to the new year. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on July 06, 2014, 09:07:29
With all this talk of 1.5 first class carriages or 2 .. I was suprisied to see the 3.5 first coaches proviided on this London bound service leaving Swindon yesterday....

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/2plus9.jpg)

The train itself was a 2+9 so I suspect it may have been a positioning move to get a carriage from one depot to another.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on July 06, 2014, 12:09:15
I travelled on a 2+9 set the other day, advertised as such by the CIS. There was a standard class Coach B at the London end that was locked out of use.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on July 06, 2014, 12:28:42
A few weeks ago there was a set with 2 coach A's Swansea bound at about 8.25am at Bridgend.

Thus proving that 2+9 are perfectly able to maintain timings, at least on the core of the network and out to S.Wales...if they could locate some Mk3's (the difficult bit it seems - what did happen to all those loco hauled Mk3's from the WCML?) to convert to HST spec rather than mucking about quite so much with 1st class capacity, they really would be on to a winner!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on July 06, 2014, 13:20:07
Although it doesnt show too clearly in the photo, the set I saw certainly had three first class carriages at the front and then a 408xxx kitchen.  I don't know if any of the nine were locked out.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on July 23, 2014, 09:33:56

Maidenhead->Paddington was full and with standing passengers in 1st Class today, as is always the case these days.

I happened to notice that there were at least two FGW employees (if quantity of keys is an indication I'd say they were TM's) in seats in 1st whilst the passnegers stood.

What is the verdict/official position on this?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on July 23, 2014, 09:41:34

Maidenhead->Paddington was full and with standing passengers in 1st Class today, as is always the case these days.

I happened to notice that there were at least two FGW employees (if quantity of keys is an indication I'd say they were TM's) in seats in 1st whilst the passnegers stood.

What is the verdict/official position on this?

I don't believe that this is allowed unless of course off duty and in possession of a first class ticket.
A small number of senior staff have free first class passes, but I believe that even holders of these are meant to stand if a first class passenger is standing.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: tom m on July 23, 2014, 10:08:24
Any railway employee or family member travelling using a ATOC staff pass is required to surrender their seat to a full fare paying passenger in those circumstances, its part of the terms and conditions of the ATOC pass.

I am not sure what the situation is with employees travelling on company trains but I presume similar rules exist.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on July 23, 2014, 10:49:56

Maidenhead->Paddington was full and with standing passengers in 1st Class today, as is always the case these days.

I happened to notice that there were at least two FGW employees (if quantity of keys is an indication I'd say they were TM's) in seats in 1st whilst the passnegers stood.

What is the verdict/official position on this?

I don't believe that this is allowed unless of course off duty and in possession of a first class ticket.
A small number of senior staff have free first class passes, but I believe that even holders of these are meant to stand if a first class passenger is standing.

It's a massive no no, unless specifically authorised - ie. it is stated on a crew diagram, having been agreed by higher powers.

It would have to be a publicly available first class ticket, as even first class ticket purchased at staff discount rate requires them to stand if public fare paying are standing.  (Vast majority of staff do not have the entitlement to 1st class discount either).

You are correct re: first class passes, although I think there is a retired Gold pass that a tiny few still have that does not require them to stand.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on July 23, 2014, 16:03:30
FGW staff passes for 1st class are pretty rare and are not issued even to Station Managers or Flagship Station Managers (BRI/PAD/etc).
I am aware that certain staff from PR/Comms get First Class passes and there are also +4 passes (ie the holder and 4 invited guests). However these also come under the give up your seat to a fare paying passenger rule.

The rules are that if a fare paying passenger customer is standing then the member of staff must give their seat up.
Even the ex BR managers on Status Passes (the plastic ones with blue/silver/gold bar at the top) should also give their seats up.
Gold status passes also have the give up the seat rule. Generally gold status passes are given to executive grade staff at privatisation. E.g. Sector Directors, Sector MDs, and their partners. Gold status passes get you everything for free including sleeper berths.
There are even rarer passes then the status passes, medallions and the All Companies Free FIP pass.

Retired staff are exempt from the seat rule.

If you have purchased a staff discounted ticket then there is some argument over giving the seat up. I would say that as you have paid for the seat (in some format) then you are entitled to sit there. Sometimes even the advance tickets are cheaper then staff rate and in that case who would get the seat??


ATOC Staff restrictions guide extract
Quote
Active staff holders of National Rail First Class travel facilities must give priority to fare-paying First Class customers.

Active staff holders of National Rail Standard travel facilities are requested to vacate their seats if fare-paying customers are standing.

In respect of journeys terminating at Paddington on services which arrive between 07.15 and 09.00 and journeys
departing from Paddington between 16.30 and 19.15, holders of all staff travel facilities should only use accommodation where spare seats are available. Whenever required by those joining en-route, seats should be vacated immediately.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on July 24, 2014, 20:19:27
In complete opposite to bobm's photo...

FGW Have 0.5 First Class Carriages on the 21:45 PAD - EXD via BRI on 23rd July 2014

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O4HTddBKZNI/U9A4q-AYp-I/AAAAAAAAP9M/-hB_HDpbTfM/w983-h553-no/20140723_233348.jpg)

Closer inspection shows that both the Coach K and Coach L Doors have been locked out of use

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xQjIW-QMNHg/U9A4tazvSpI/AAAAAAAAP9Y/HYBtLX_e8SE/w983-h553-no/20140723_233459.jpg)

Central Locking Fault? or a new trial of First Class similar to a Southern 377 ;D :-X :P


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Btline on July 24, 2014, 22:25:15
Well what a surprise, commuters who have forked out thousands for their 1st class season tickets now have to stand!

What's FGWs response or are they just hoping people will switch to standard?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on July 25, 2014, 08:48:45
Closer inspection shows that both the Coach K and Coach L Doors have been locked out of use

Possible the same set I took in the morning, 08:09 (RDG-PAD) had both first class and the buffet totally locked out.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on July 27, 2014, 22:17:20
And now a set with just 1 First Class Carriage ::)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o1DQxX1Fa3Y/U9QPiMIfnuI/AAAAAAAAfB0/63oQMe81iNw/w1597-h483-no/20140726_211236.jpg)

* Pedants * - The yellow line above the second carriage is the Buffet and not the Composite Section of First Class Seating ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: LiskeardRich on July 27, 2014, 22:19:11
And now a set with just 1 First Class Carriage ::)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o1DQxX1Fa3Y/U9QPiMIfnuI/AAAAAAAAfB0/63oQMe81iNw/w1597-h483-no/20140726_211236.jpg)

* Pedants * - The yellow line above the second carriage is the Buffet and not the Composite Section of First Class Seating ;)

Does this line mean only first classers can stand at the micro buffet?  ;D  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on July 27, 2014, 23:06:04
Does this line mean only first classers can stand at the micro buffet?  ;D  ::)

I have a feeling I am about to answer a rhetorical question or blow a joke out the water... ;D

The line was put above the Buffet to discourage people Boarding Coach F at this door because of the Trolley and people who may already be queuing at the buffet. This was discussed in another thread somewhere quite some time ago :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on July 28, 2014, 00:26:56
Bring back the red line


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 28, 2014, 09:10:08
Bring back the red line
Or, paint the door blue, like the guard's door on the TGS. And while your at it, find a nicer colour than pink (white might work) to paint the passenger doors.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on July 28, 2014, 10:22:54
The contrast needs to be as big as possible for those with a sight disability


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on July 28, 2014, 11:43:46
Its not pink.
Its Rubine Red :-p

They have to colour the doors with a big contrast for people with visual impairments.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 28, 2014, 13:12:09
Its not pink.
Its Rubine Red :-p

They have to colour the doors with a big contrast for people with visual impairments.
They used white doors on the previous livery, and the ScotRail livery does the same. I think that suggests white on dark blue is enough of a contrast to comply.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on July 28, 2014, 15:44:48
I like the pink!

But I don't think it necessary to have a yellow stripe over the TSMB buffet end doors. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on July 28, 2014, 17:50:40
And now a set with just 1 First Class Carriage ::)

The 1706 PAD-BRI which I've just left at TWY also only had the 1 FC coach. Maybe the same set as in the photo, or is there more than one such formation around at the moment?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 28, 2014, 19:20:54
Well I was on the 0655 Plymouth to Paddington and 1406 return today and both had a single FC coach.  Lets say it vas very cosy with only a couple of spare seats :-[


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on July 28, 2014, 19:27:48
Well I was on the 0655 Plymouth to Paddington and 1406 return today and both had a single FC coach.  Lets say it vas very cosy with only a couple of spare seats :-[

So I assume no Breakfast Pullman on the up Golden Hind then.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ollie on July 28, 2014, 19:35:05
Well I was on the 0655 Plymouth to Paddington and 1406 return today and both had a single FC coach.  Lets say it vas very cosy with only a couple of spare seats :-[

So proving that on that occasion only the one first class coach was needed?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 28, 2014, 19:38:16
Well I was on the 0655 Plymouth to Paddington and 1406 return today and both had a single FC coach.  Lets say it vas very cosy with only a couple of spare seats :-[

So proving that on that occasion only the one first class coach was needed?
Yes agreed.  The only trouble was the noise.  Impossible to get any rest  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ollie on July 28, 2014, 22:25:18
There will hopefully be some improvement to that when the "privacy" style seats get done.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 29, 2014, 06:12:56
I like the pink!

But I don't think it necessary to have a yellow stripe over the TSMB buffet end doors. 

For goodness's sake someone call Gok!  :D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on July 31, 2014, 20:09:54
7.59 Maidenhead to Paddington yesterday only had 1 1/2 first class carriages and was full (but not standing).. However it's the school holidays (so less people travelling) and the train was in reverse formation (so more people potentially trying to travel first class for free)..

There was  a ticket check though and I saw at least 3 people paying (having to pay for?) an upgrade  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on July 31, 2014, 20:39:48
This is the set running around with 4 Seats in First Class of the new design. Having come within 15 metres of them I already don't like them...!

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TeZ-9a8OMNg/U9gBfq35X4I/AAAAAAAAfh0/bKKI7d6Ng4M/w983-h553-no/20140729_211441.jpg)

<tongue-in-cheek=on>

I also had to share a First Class Carriage with someone on 1A37 on Tuesday... An annoying girl who decided she didn't want to sit in a carriage on her own... Unacceptable!! :P

</tongue-in-cheek=off>


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SDS on July 31, 2014, 22:45:17
Theres a sticker right slap bang in the middle of the window? Hmm that could impede my views of the flooded countryside or the NR workers fixing the cables while we go through at 3mph.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on July 31, 2014, 23:46:03
Well this is the 21:15 TAU - PAD. The 21:29 TAU - PAD was stood at the platform behind me. So this is a reflection. Although this may fill your desires to see such things ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmXiEljqveU#t=11

I think my pets and I are becoming acquainted a little too often :D ;D :-X


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on August 19, 2014, 18:13:54
A surprise awaited me on boarding my usual train this morning (0512 Plymouth to Paddington). A refurbished first class coach with lots of chatter from passengers and staff about it.

Initial verdict - looks very nice, has a premium feel to it, although on sitting down it did feel like I was sitting on a cushion on a seat. I guess that's the fact that the upholstery is new and still very firm. Reclining the seat didn't feel quite as laid back as on the unrefurbed coaches.

If you didn't know, you would think it was a brand new coach, and I bet some people will think it is. Who says Mk 3's can't go on for another 20 years? 

Other observations - the GWR branding looks rather classy - is this going to be rolled out across the fleet I wonder, with "First" being dropped?  However, the lack of anti-macassers on the seat backs looks to be a mistake, unless there is a commitment to regular cleaning of the seat back.

There appeared to be only two single seats in "tabled" formation, with all the others airline, resulting in much smaller tables for laptops, newspapers, tea etc. I can see I am going to migrate from the single seat side to the tables of four.

The lighting is much dimmer, even with all strips lit, though that makes for a more relaxed feel. A nice touch that could have been added is seat lights, to give a real premium feel. Finally, the plugs will have USB ports attached for chargers, though not on this carriage, and there are some tiny blue lights by the plugs that don't appear to have any use, but look cool.

All in all - 8/10. A good effort, and one that I am sure will be appreciated by passengers.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 19, 2014, 18:23:12
Many thanks for posting that very useful, informative and detailed update here, John R.  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on August 20, 2014, 09:50:07
Thanks, John R.

I would be useful if FGW included an interactive seating plan when booking online now that there are a mix of single, 1+1 and 2+2 available.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 20, 2014, 10:31:16
I would be useful if FGW included an interactive seating plan when booking online now that there are a mix of single, 1+1 and 2+2 available.

Won't what you get on the day be completely random until the refurbishment is completed?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 20, 2014, 15:10:03
Other observations - the GWR branding looks rather classy - is this going to be rolled out across the fleet I wonder, with "First" being dropped?  However, the lack of anti-macassers on the seat backs looks to be a mistake, unless there is a commitment to regular cleaning of the seat back.

Too close to franchise renewal to use First branding only to take it off again in a year's time possibly. Anti-macassers are not needed, I was told, as their leather cleaner is superb! (we'll wait & see on this)

Quote
There appeared to be only two single seats in "tabled" formation, with all the others airline

Safety reason apparently - the space was too large to not have a facing single seat in there. Seat belts might have been necessary otherwise!

Quote
resulting in much smaller tables for laptops, newspapers, tea etc. I can see I am going to migrate from the single seat side to the tables of four.

Not sure that they're *that* much smaller? But yes, a tad smaller, I grant you. Plus the back of the seat in front across from the table, along with 50% of these not aligning properly with the window. But they'd have lost seats if they did - and defeat the object of this exercise (to produce additional seats overall)

Quote
The lighting is much dimmer, even with all strips lit, though that makes for a more relaxed feel. A nice touch that could have been added is seat lights, to give a real premium feel.

Ahhh, you missed the main thing here - that these are LED lights & a sensor automatically brightens/weakens the lighting power as the ambient light goes up & down. Put your hand over the sensor above the end door & watch....:-)

Quote
Finally, the plugs will have USB ports attached for chargers, though not on this carriage, and there are some tiny blue lights by the plugs that don't appear to have any use, but look cool.

Ok, you got the second set that I saw last week - the other set *does* have 2xUSB sockets as well as 2x3pi plug. They couldn't fit 4xplugs as the electric circuit wasn't replaced & it would overload it, if all used with 4xplugs. The USB sockets draw smaller current.

Quote
All in all - 8/10. A good effort, and one that I am sure will be appreciated by passengers.

Yes, that was my thinking too. I will add here once I have time (& my notes with me)


[/quote]


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on August 20, 2014, 15:57:44
All we need now is some photos of this new interior. I've not seen anything online yet from FGW's preview of this carriage at Laira depot last Friday.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 20, 2014, 16:18:34
I will try & post some of those I took on Monday - sorry, but I doubt I'll find time before then to resize etc - they're still on the camera....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on August 21, 2014, 22:52:41
Here are John R's photos:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2ZuC6eHImoU/U_Zot6DIFKI/AAAAAAAAhU8/A7VZa4XuUl0/w399-h534-no/IMG_0111.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-EBQ47QXkx0s/U_ZozeYmvsI/AAAAAAAAhVc/5_MKrfditkI/w715-h534-no/IMG_0110.jpg)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on August 22, 2014, 07:51:44
Thank you the trout.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on August 22, 2014, 08:57:06
This was tweeted earlier this morning and contains pictures of the refurbished First Class vehicles.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/100786/first-great-western-unveils-refurbished-first-c




Edit note: Purely in the interests of ease of viewing this particular very topical item, I'm taking the unusual step of editing this post to include links to the actual pictures in that news item (which are all ^ Business Traveller):

(http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/First-Great-Western/FGW-NF-2.jpg) (http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/First-Great-Western/FGW-NF-3.jpg) (http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/First-Great-Western/FGW-NF-1.jpg) (http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/First-Great-Western/FGW-NF-5.jpg) (http://www.businesstraveller.com/files/News-images/First-Great-Western/FGW-NF-4.jpg)

Chris from Nailsea.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Umberleigh on August 22, 2014, 10:08:01
All looks very smart, better than anticipated in fact.

But seriously FGW: 'First Great Western says that the new interiors ^reflect the top three priorities of first class customers ^ space, privacy and productivity^.' In other words, what was lost by withdrawing an entire First Class coach from even the busiest services...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 22, 2014, 10:46:42
Quote
First Great Western is also converting one first class carriage per train into its standard offering (leaving either one or one and a half first class carriages per train).

Eh?....you sure about that....?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2014, 17:19:07
That 'GWR' logo has been trademarked by First Greater Western Limited (on 16th July 2014) for a wide range of uses beyond just antimacassars on 1st Class seats.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468

In place for a name change at a later date perhaps? Unlikely there'll be wholesale company branding and livery changes before a new full length franchise is awarded, but maybe indicative of the direction First Group are taking with the Greater Western franchise. Dropping the word 'First' for starters.

Still have to win the next full length franchise of course...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 25, 2014, 17:42:37
FGW said they'd done it this way in case they didn't get either the direct award or later franchise. Removing First branding at either change was considered a risk too far, and this would be acceptable by everyone concerned.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2014, 17:50:20
Does the new layout provide any extra seats per carriage?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on August 25, 2014, 17:52:05
Maybe a couple due to the airline seats for the single seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ivor Dewdney on August 25, 2014, 19:57:35
There is a seating map for Coach L on thetrainline.com

Although only 7 of the 15 airline seats have numbers.

Does this indicate that reservations will be restricted?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on August 25, 2014, 20:11:47
I think it more likely that the reservation system has to take into account that there is no guarantee which 'type' of coach L will be available on a given service. No point offering seat reservations for the new style layout coach when an unrefurbished one may turn up on the day. Otherwise there's a chance a reservation will be given for a seat that, on the day, doesn't exist.

Not unlike what happens in Standard Class with certain seats being unreservable in the high density layout coaches (2 tables in coaches A,B,D, none in coach C) versus low density (4 tables A,B,D, 3 in C).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 25, 2014, 22:10:03
Maybe a couple due to the airline seats for the single seats.

I wondered that, but looking at your photo above it looks like the four airline seats are occupying the same space as two sets of seats with tables used to do - In other words they appear to align with the tabled seats on the other side of the carriage.  Could be just an illusion in the photograph though.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 26, 2014, 20:23:50
Purely for ease of future reference, I have edited a member's previous post, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg159801#msg159801 to include the actual images.

Hope this helps. CfN.  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Electric train on August 27, 2014, 18:27:30
I have noticed in the last few weeks revenue protection have been emptying people out of First Class on the TV services, quite a few grumpy people about who actually never make the effort to sit in Standard just sit in First Class automatically


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 27, 2014, 20:44:44
From ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2014-08-27/first-great-western-seat-upgrade/), a video report:

Quote
First Great Western seat upgrade

First Great Western has been showing off a new look for its first class carriages with a brand new logo on the seats.

It's part of major changes to the companies fleet of high speed trains which will see fewer first class seats to make way for more in standard class.

Over the next year scores of carriages will be improved which is part of a ^13 million upgrade.

Quite what that grimace at the end of the video was all about, I have no idea.  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Electric train on August 28, 2014, 07:59:20
From ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2014-08-27/first-great-western-seat-upgrade/), a video report:

Quote
First Great Western seat upgrade

First Great Western has been showing off a new look for its first class carriages with a brand new logo on the seats.

It's part of major changes to the companies fleet of high speed trains which will see fewer first class seats to make way for more in standard class.

Over the next year scores of carriages will be improved which is part of a ^13 million upgrade.

Quite what that grimace at the end of the video was all about, I have no idea.  ::)
Looks like poor video editing on the part of Meridian


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on August 28, 2014, 09:19:42
I have noticed in the last few weeks revenue protection have been emptying people out of First Class on the TV services, quite a few grumpy people about who actually never make the effort to sit in Standard just sit in First Class automatically

Yes indeed. We're getting ticket checks nearly every day now.  The irony is that due to the school holiday season the carriages are half empty and so the need to enforce ticketing is less pressing.  I can only hope that this will continue once schools are back.
I even had my first EVER ticket check on a Paddington outbound service last week!

Q: I'm referring to HST services here.  Is the same happening on Turbos?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: lordgoata on August 28, 2014, 09:24:05
There has certainly been an increase in ticket checks, but by no means daily on my turbo. As you say though, as soon as the schools are back and they can't walk through the train, they will just stop again.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 01, 2014, 12:12:38
Apologies if this has already been covered, but surely the reduction in 1st class accomodation must herald the end of Weekend First?...........I am attempting to book 1st class seats from the Westcountry back to Reading over a month hence and the prices are already very high, and in my experience Sunday afternoon trains on this route are extremely busy.

I wouldn't be too happy if I book first class at this price only for someone to stroll in and get the same service for supplement from standard class  >:(


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on September 01, 2014, 12:16:20
I'm not sure why anyone books 1st class at the weekends? Just upgrade using Weekend First?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on September 01, 2014, 12:45:48
I'm not sure why anyone books 1st class at the weekends? Just upgrade using Weekend First?
Up to a few weeks ago I would have agreed with you and still do unless a)You want to use the First class lounge at Paddington now open at weekends where a First class ticket is required to access the lounge. b)You want to guarantee a seat now the amount of First class seating is reduced.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on September 01, 2014, 13:08:37
The weekend before last I got an Advance First class ticket from the West of England for less than the price of a standard advance and the supplement.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on September 01, 2014, 13:42:09
yup, that can happen - but I suspect won't be available too much longer....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: The Tall Controller on September 01, 2014, 14:28:30
Weekend upgrades are sold subject to availability (i.e. seats still vacant) so if you do want to go First Class it may be worth paying the extra few pounds to guarantee your seat. Quite a few times this summer some HSTs coming up through Cornwall had to turn down upgrades before Plymouth as 1st class was already full.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on September 01, 2014, 15:31:48
Quite a few times this summer some HSTs coming up through Cornwall had to turn down upgrades before Plymouth as 1st class was already full.

Question from someone who's not used these services ... do they have to leave an allowance of first class seats empty on the way up through Cornwall to allow for unreserved first class passengers joining at Plymouth?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on September 01, 2014, 16:50:58
Quite a few times this summer some HSTs coming up through Cornwall had to turn down upgrades before Plymouth as 1st class was already full.

Question from someone who's not used these services ... do they have to leave an allowance of first class seats empty on the way up through Cornwall to allow for unreserved first class passengers joining at Plymouth?

I see where you're going with this..  ;)

As far as I know, there is no requirement to hold seats back, but I personally doubt we'll see Weekend First, once the refurb is complete - especially given 1st class trolley is rumoured to being introduced at weekends.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on September 01, 2014, 17:11:59
I'm not sure why anyone books 1st class at the weekends? Just upgrade using Weekend First?

Some First Class Off Peak Day Returns (FCR) and First Class Off Peak Returns (FSR) would be more expensive on a CDR+Supplement than just doing the First Class ticket outright. This is especially true if the route covers 2 or more zones on the Supplement Stages Map.

Also some passengers may go out on say a Thursday with an FSR and return on the Sunday. In this case an SSS (Super Off Peak Single+Weekend First) may would out cheaper if you're going to make the journey again and want to save the return portion for a different day.

Question from someone who's not used these services ... do they have to leave an allowance of first class seats empty on the way up through Cornwall to allow for unreserved first class passengers joining at Plymouth?

I think that that is what is meant to happen. But there is a big difference between what should happen versus watch actually happens. However it is an unwritten rule that those wanting to upgrade at the weekend just go and sit in First Class regardless and pay the Train Manager IF they come round. So you could also argue at the time there were seats available.

I used a train over the weekend where I had an FCR Ticket and found First Class to be full. It was a 1.5 seating set. I totally understand where TaplowGreen is coming from. I'm not necessarily worried about someone getting a cheap upgrade. But I do have an issue with buying a First Class ticket only to find I cannot get a seat because of Weekend First upgrades have taken all the seats.

However the harsh reality is "sold subject to availability" and the seats where available when the passengers boarded and upgraded. If someone boards with an FCR/FSR/FOR/FDS/FOS 4 stops up the line and all seats are now taken. Tough!

You would however be entitled to a refund from FGW for having to downgrade to Standard Class because of no seats being available. As has been discussed many times in the past, FGW DO pay compensation when this happens. I see no reason why this should not include weekends irrelevant of the amount of Weekend First ticket holders or not!

I do have to say the certain types of Weekend First ticket holders who get on my nerves are the ones who are say a group of 3 or 5 who expect to keep the whole table(s) to themselves...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 22, 2014, 08:36:27
45 people standing in First Class this morning.  No ticket checks, no papers, no coffee, no trolley.  Not very good.

TM was getting an earfull from 6 or 7 irate (but polite) passengers as I left the train.  When their only response, repeatedly, is 'this is a management directive' you can understand why people get angry.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on September 22, 2014, 08:39:45
From where?

That is the reason - I feel for the staff. Maybe they ought to be supplied with business cards that contain contact details for management/customer services (Dft?  :P ) which would help their predicament.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 22, 2014, 09:13:18
Maidenhead to Paddington - the 7.08 which is now 1.33 first class carriages.

The TM is in a no-win situation.  If he ventures into 1st Class then he will take the wrath of standing passengers, but hiding away and saying it was too crowded to check tickets in First Class just rubs salt into the wound.

In July I contacted a senior FGW manager who's details I had about the situation at Maidenhead and asked them to listen and speak with us.  They said they would find an appropriate method to 'engage'.  Two months on there has been no further word from them.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 22, 2014, 10:41:20
More worryingly I have seen inconsistent information on this on the FGW Twitter feed - one saying that refunds would be paid to 1st class season ticket holders in these circumstances, another saying only if you had a reservation but were unable to use it because the seat was taken.

I'd be interested to know how refunds are going to work in these circumstances, where 1st class ticket holders have been unable to get a seat and the TM is unable/disinclined/can't be bothered  to travel through the train to check tickets?

None of these issues (along with others ad nauseam) seem to have been considered in the race to convert 1st class to standard class.





Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 22, 2014, 10:49:46
I'm having no problem securing refunds, but I'd prefer a seat.

Customer Charter states:
"If you hold a First Class ticket and there are no seats available we will offer compensation in
National Rail Travel Vouchers or as an e-voucher credit to your online FGW account, based
on the cost of your ticket. This will be the difference between the corresponding First and
Standard Class ticket and for Season Ticket holders we will work out the proportional daily
rate* for the affected journey. To claim please contact our Customer Relations team with your
journey details and your original ticket / Season Ticket details."

So no mention of seat reservations at all there.  FGW have in the past tried different types of exclusions such as 'does not apply to Turbos' but that wording was removed in the Oct13 version.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on September 22, 2014, 11:20:12
I have only claimed once recently and received a prompt refund of the difference between first and standard.
This was on an afternoon service from Paddington, and despite the downgraded first class I was rather surprised that it was full.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on September 22, 2014, 22:01:29
I think the 7.59 Maidenhead to Paddington this morning must have been one of the services with reduced First Class judging by the amount of people without seats in First Class (after Maidenhead)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 03, 2014, 21:46:32
1730 Swindon to Taunton had 1.5 FC tonight. Standard appeared rammed, possibly because of a rugby match in Bath this evening.

It was notable for the 4 beer swigging men shouting in the vestibule between the two FC coaches. (Though the TM did kick them out after I asked him to, to be fair.)

And the rest of the FC accommodation appeared to have a high proportion of passengers who didn't appear consistent with the normal type of passenger I see on the 1730. I appreciate that one must be careful not to judge individuals by how they look, but the sheer volume on this service made me suspect that some may not have held first class tickets. TM walked through first after Chippenham, but didn't do a ticket check.

So, what happened to the promise that once reduced to 1.5 vehicles, there would be more effort to keep the remaining accommodation solely for those who have paid for the enhanced amenity of first? (Or did I dream that bit?) 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on October 03, 2014, 22:02:12
The 17:30 from Paddington (an hour behind) was also very busy and picked up a lot of custom - especially at Chippenham.  And - off to Rugby - the look and feel of those customers was rather different - leisure as opposed to business tonight.   I don't know what First / Standard mix you would expect; I know there are some folks who splash out when they go out for the night, and that may include a bit more space when travelling.   I went "scruff clad" to Lancaster 2 weekends ago, but chose to go first class on the way up.    You're very likely right, John, that some were in first with standard tickets tonight, as I know it's not uncommon. But I wouldn't want to make a sweeping generalisation.

Quote
So, what happened to the promise that once reduced to 1.5 vehicles, there would be more effort to keep the remaining accommodation solely for those who have paid for the enhanced amenity of first? (Or did I dream that bit?)

Did they say "more effort" as you suggest ... or did they say "check every train"?   "More" could be up from 30% to 60% of journeys checked.

There has been, and remain, revenue protection issues from my journey tonight. But there also was extra revenue collection in place at Chippenham at least, and there are more steps I've reported on this week.   Work in progress, and perhaps an evening when the importance was highlighted.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 13, 2014, 20:15:47
An interesting configuration tonight on the 1733 Swindon to Taunton. 7 x standard class, 1 x first class. No buffet car. (Two trolleys, one for each class.)

Result was that one of the standard class vehicles was reserved for first class passengers. From what I can gather earlier in the journey this resulted in irate first class pax upset at having to sit in standard, and irate standard class pax having to stand when there was a standard vehicle with relatively few people in it. Though it did mean that the customer host knew which pax she could serve, and probably more importantly that every first class passenger at least got a seat.

But it made me wonder, would 1st class ticket holders be entitled to a refund if they were sitting in a vehicle that was standard configuration but had been "marked up" to first class?   


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on October 13, 2014, 20:20:56
Our esteemed colleague Bignosemac caught this set on its previous working from Cardiff where, despite numerous announcements from the Train Manager, there was still one person a bit miffed about the lack of coffee.

It was one of those days as far as set allocations went with one with no kitchen being allocated to one of the up WoE breakfast trains and the mid morning South Wales brunch train.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 13, 2014, 23:59:01
I did say to bobm, I wonder if this set (the 1355 from Cardiff) would work the 1633 (vice 1630) PAD-TAU later in the afternoon. Seems my prediction was right.

Glad to hear that they got a couple of trolleys on board for the peak Down service. There was diddly on the Up journey. Was the trolley in Standard Class static with announcements? I can't imagine it would have been easy to pass through the train.

It was a 2+7 set. 6x STD and 1x 1ST. First time in all my travels with FGW that a set has not had a buffet in the consist. There are times when the buffet has been closed, but never completely missing!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on October 14, 2014, 07:11:41
The standard trolley was static in A, with announcements made accordingly.  I hadn't spotted that the set was one short, which makes it clearer why standard pax would have been annoyed, since effectively the reduction in accommodation was translated from first into standard.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on October 29, 2014, 18:47:10
The 1706 PAD-BRI tonight had 7 Standard coaches and just 1 First Class. I can't remember the last time (apart from Christmas Eve) when there was so much available space in Standard, and even more remarkable when you consider it's half-term week! (It did have a micro-buffet.)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on November 04, 2014, 21:49:34
Not sure how long it's been there, but there is a short video on the FGW website of the refurbished 1st Class:
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Your-journey/On-board/First-class

Direct youtube link to the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB4ZtBzOFfc#t=18


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 06, 2014, 13:10:00
Well it^s finally happened before the start of the early morning rush. 1A02 BRI to PAD had only one first class carriage which was more than half full by Didcot.  I got a seat in an unused Chippenham reservation.  After Reading it was full and after Slough the few regular pick-ups from there could not get a seat.  The TM made an apology over the PA and invited the standing first class passengers to take a seat in the free seats that were available in standard. She further advised that the buffet attendant would help her in marking the tickets for the purpose of obtaining a refund.

 ^I am sorry.^ she said, ^I know this is not how you intended [read: or paid] to travel today^. The pendulum appears to be over swinging.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 06, 2014, 13:12:40
Well it^s finally happened before the start of the early morning rush. 1A02 BRI to PAD had only one first class carriage which was more than half full by Didcot.  I got a seat in an unused Chippenham reservation.  After Reading it was full and after Slough the few regular pick-ups from there could not get a seat.  The TM made an apology over the PA and invited the standing first class passengers to take a seat in the free seats that were available in standard. She further advised that the buffet attendant would help her in marking the tickets for the purpose of obtaining a refund.

 ^I am sorry.^ she said, ^I know this is not how you intended [read: or paid] to travel today^. The pendulum appears to be over swinging.

Would you say that one-and-a-half carriages of 1st Class would be adequate for this train though?  That is what the formation will be for all trains when the refurbishment program is complete, not just the one carriage.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 06, 2014, 14:04:54
As an aside, due to earlier delays at Maidenhead today, we managed to fill 2.5 carriages + standing today.
TM came through and threw out some interlopers but all 2.5 were still heavily standing.  I had counted >100 looking to join the 1st Class section on the platform.





Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 06, 2014, 14:35:55
Would you say that one-and-a-half carriages of 1st Class would be adequate for this train though?  That is what the formation will be for all trains when the refurbishment program is complete, not just the one carriage.

Today, that half carriage would have given the Slough customers a seat.  However, after Didcot, the only free seats were unused reservations. If those with reservations had travelled with us today, a 1.5 formation would not have satisfied demand; a demand that trades at a 100+% premium over the standard rate.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on November 06, 2014, 16:59:45
Tonight's 1700 PAD-BRI on P5 at PAD has 2.5 First Class and only 4 Standard. By 1655 Standard was rammed with no one else able to board but there's just been a shout that First is declassified. All viewed from the relative calm of the 1706 on Platform 4!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 06, 2014, 17:56:55
Would you say that one-and-a-half carriages of 1st Class would be adequate for this train though?  That is what the formation will be for all trains when the refurbishment program is complete, not just the one carriage.

Today, that half carriage would have given the Slough customers a seat.  However, after Didcot, the only free seats were unused reservations. If those with reservations had travelled with us today, a 1.5 formation would not have satisfied demand; a demand that trades at a 100+% premium over the standard rate.

Peak time reservation no-show's?  Whatever next!   ;)  Another peak train that would probably have enough accommodation with 1.5 carriages on most days then.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 06, 2014, 21:03:10
Tonight's 1700 PAD-BRI on P5 at PAD has 2.5 First Class and only 4 Standard. By 1655 Standard was rammed with no one else able to board but there's just been a shout that First is declassified. All viewed from the relative calm of the 1706 on Platform 4!
Dodged a bullet there then! My normal down train.

Luckily managed to catch the 1649 PAD-OXF instead - just...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BandHcommuter on November 06, 2014, 23:54:17
Tonight's 1700 PAD-BRI on P5 at PAD has 2.5 First Class and only 4 Standard. By 1655 Standard was rammed with no one else able to board but there's just been a shout that First is declassified. All viewed from the relative calm of the 1706 on Platform 4!

I'm currently in a similar situation this evening (possibly the same train) but I'm fortunate enough to be one of the lucky ones to  have turned up 15 minutes in advance and acquired a seat on the 2145 from Paddington to Exeter. All vestibules and aisles were full of people standing for the first 50 minutes of the journey, and only after Didcot have seats become available. There is no evidence that any of the 2.5 coaches of first class have been made available to standard class ticket holders.

The same short train turned up  when I was on the 0605 from Frome to Paddington on Wednesday. 4 Standard coaches, 2.5 First, a shortfall of around 170 standard class seats (two coaches) on a train which is usually full with people standing before it even gets to Reading. The guard rightly declassified most of First class, releasing a further 60 or so seats. Even with this intervention, passengers were left behind at Reading West because there was no room for them to board. No chance at Reading. This morning I had a chat with the same guard on the same train, and he mentioned that this train is reputed to be the busiest HST morning arrival into Paddington.  He clearly cares about his passengers,  and had expressed his concerns to management that such inadequate accommodation was being provided.

Given that maintenance and refurbishment work to the trains is presumably planned in advance, I would expect fgw to make far greater efforts to  mitigate the impacts of this work on passengers, and to protect the busiest trains from overcrowding.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on November 07, 2014, 01:11:27
FGW have rather made a rod for their own back by agreeing to the DfTs requirement to increase HST Standard Class capacity. The price they've had to pay to keep hold of the keys.

They are doing this in addition to a backlog of scheduled maintenance caused by the major network disruption in February of this year. The assets really have been sweated this year and FGW are still playing catch-up. it's a testament to the skills of the HST maintenance and engineering teams at Old Oak Common, St Phillips Marsh, Landore and Laira that they've been able to (just about) match fleet availability with service requirements.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on November 07, 2014, 05:52:03
Bit unfortunate that FGW have ended up upsetting both First and Std class passengers recently with sets either missing a First coach or Std coaches. I can see how it has happened with sets being broken up to send coaches away for conversion.

Must be a nightmare for the HST depots on top of everything else they have to do in the few short hours they have with sets at night. It's not like the previous refurb when a whole set was sent away.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2014, 05:58:26
FGW have rather made a rod for their own back by agreeing to the DfTs requirement to increase HST Standard Class capacity. The price they've had to pay to keep hold of the keys.

They are doing this in addition to a backlog of scheduled maintenance caused by the major network disruption in February of this year. The assets really have been sweated this year and FGW are still playing catch-up. it's a testament to the skills of the HST maintenance and engineering teams at Old Oak Common, St Phillips Marsh, Landore and Laira that they've been able to (just about) match fleet availability with service requirements.

There does seem however to be a huge increase in cancellations/shortforms/breakdowns due to mechanical failure at the moment, not good coupled with the signalling problems which now seem to be virtually out of control and being accepted as BAU by many - another breakdown last night, one of the last trains off Paddington failed at Ealing Broadway, blocked the line and with some lines closed for engineering works the predictable chaos ensued.....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on November 07, 2014, 07:31:14
Short formed services will be more prevalent around this time of year due to the Autumn leaf fall season which I don't think has really started in some areas.
Turbos, HST stock etc will have to be taken out of service if they are found to have wheel flats outside the permitted tolerance.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on November 07, 2014, 07:47:00
It's a testament to the skills of the HST maintenance and engineering teams at Old Oak Common, St Phillips Marsh, Landore and Laira that they've been able to (just about) match fleet availability with service requirements.

Not to mention the staff at Long Rock, Penzance, who also do their bit.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on November 07, 2014, 10:41:12
From Get Reading (http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/mps-petition-calling-first-great-8064357)

Quote
MP's petition calling for First Great Western to declassify First Class when trains are packed

Reading West MP Alok Sharma has today launched a petition calling on First Great Western to declassify First Class carriages on overcrowded trains.

Mr Sharma is also calling on the train operator to publish data daily on the number of times it declassifies trains.

His online petition reads: ^We the undersigned call on First Great Western to declassify First Class carriages on overcrowded trains between Reading and London Paddington and to publish data on how many trains are declassified each day.^

The MP has previously held a Parliamentary debate on rail ticketing and overcrowding, lobbied ministers on this issue on behalf of constituents and campaigned for a reduction in the number of First Class carriages.

He was delighted when the Department for Transport announced in March it was providing funding to increase the number of standard class seats on all First Great Western trains by summer 2015.

Mr Sharma said: ^There is nothing more frustrating for my commuting constituents than standing in standard class, packed in like sardines, when there are dozens of empty seats in First Class carriages.

"I welcome the plans to increase the number of Standard Class seats next year, but FGW needs to take action sooner and they can do that by declassifying overcrowded trains now.

^I know that commuters also find it baffling, as I do, that First Great Western appear unable to provide data on the number of times they declassify trains.

"As a company providing a public service, we have a right to know how it is meeting the needs of passengers.^

Sign the petition online by visiting www.aloksharma.co.uk/trains-petition (http://www.aloksharma.co.uk/trains-petition)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2014, 10:50:48
Totally pointless - until all formations are complete after refresh....

Politicians, eh?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on November 07, 2014, 10:55:44
I'd be interested for this gentleman to show me the trains where people are forced to stand in standard class that have 'dozens' of spare seats in First...I can't say I've ever witnessed that phenomenon. I have witnessed a number of times where people are stuffed in near the centre of the train (to be near the exits at Reading) when there are many spare seats closer to the front.

I'd like to propose a counter petition to drop the Reading stop on all long distance services from Paddington, in order to make life more comfortable to those who are travelling more than 25 minutes from London!  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on November 07, 2014, 10:57:19
I'd like to propose a counter petition to drop the Reading stop on all long distance services from Paddington, in order to make life more comfortable to those who are travelling more than 25 minutes from London!  ;D

Or enforce the existing pick up only restrictions.   ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on November 07, 2014, 11:04:53
Dropping the Reading stops isn't the answer. There is a significant passenger flow from Reading to points west.

As bobm says, enforcing the pick-up only restrictions is what is needed. A month long carrot and stick operation should educate the Reading commuters.

Devil's advocate here. Maybe, on the odd occasion, run fast to Swindon or Taunton, with a relief service from Reading. Anyone from Paddington over-carried to Taunton or Swindon would then think twice about again boarding a service that isn't advertised to call at Reading.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on November 07, 2014, 11:42:25
Dropping the Reading stops isn't the answer. There is a significant passenger flow from Reading to points west.


I know, I was just making as suggestion as ridiculous as that made by the Reading MP  ;D

As bobm says, enforcing the pick-up only restrictions is what is needed. A month long carrot and stick operation should educate the Reading commuters.

Devil's advocate here. Maybe, on the odd occasion, run fast to Swindon or Taunton, with a relief service from Reading. Anyone from Paddington over-carried to Taunton or Swindon would then think twice about again boarding a service that isn't advertised to call at Reading.

And FGW did almost that - there was a 19:12 departure to SWA (first stop BPW) proposed, last year sometime, which got as far as having paths, staff, trains in place to act as a relief for the 19:15 RDG, SWI stopper. For once a great idea from the ToC, only for it to be vetoed at the last minute by DfT - it was so last minute that tickets/reservations were on sale at one point & it was included in the online timetables...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2014, 12:41:00
The background to Alok Sharma's intervention is that somewhat under the radar without bells and whistles or attempts to seek publicity he has been representing the interests of his constituents who have been suffering recently through the frankly appalling service FGW have been offering its customers since early October, be that via signal failures, the seemingly increasing unreliability of it's stock, normal meteorological conditions etc, etc.

As regards this request, he and others have been attempting to engage with FGW to find out how often and in what circumstances 1st class is declassified on overcrowded trains between Reading and London..........not an unreasonable request for basic information from an elected MP you might think? In return he has been met with a parrot like response of "it's up to the TM" and "we can't tell you without consulting all the journey logs" etc............hence his resorting to a petition.

Personally I admire an MP who takes up cudgels on behalf of his constituents on an issue which is of major concern to them......but clearly he lacks the breadth of vision and vast wisdom of a lot of those here.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2014, 13:35:05
It is left to the TM's discretion....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2014, 14:07:34
It is left to the TM's discretion....

Indeed  -  the MP is after finding out how often it's happened in a given period, but the information wasn't forthcoming, hence the petition.

FGW could have avoided the unfavourable publicity by simply providing what appears to be pretty basic performance information/data.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2014, 14:14:34
I doubt the TMs actually record this info?....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2014, 14:22:32
........surely they'd have to?

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't passengers who have paid a 1st class fare get a refund if it's declassified? I would have thought that this would have to be recorded to allow them to apply for it and be verified?



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 07, 2014, 14:27:01
Wouldn't this info have to be tracked as a declassification triggers refunds for 1st class ticket holders?

I've said it before but its worth saying again - first class travel isn't a birth right or social apartheid. Anyone can just buy an upgrade if they are so peeved with Standard provision. Perhaps FGW would be better served by encouraging more people to upgrade rather than pleasing no one with the current situation.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2014, 14:36:02
Fair point!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 07, 2014, 14:48:31
Wouldn't this info have to be tracked as a declassification triggers refunds for 1st class ticket holders?

I've said it before but its worth saying again - first class travel isn't a birth right or social apartheid. Anyone can just buy an upgrade if they are so peeved with Standard provision. Perhaps FGW would be better served by encouraging more people to upgrade rather than pleasing no one with the current situation.

I agree strongly with Nick here. FGW regular mark-up on first class is over 100% on standard.  Off peak the differential can be even higher where steeply discounted standard fares are available but no off-peak fares are available in first. To travel now (Fresh from the Mixing Desk: 15h00 07-Nov-14) DID-BAN ^8.80 std/^28.40first. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on November 07, 2014, 15:46:29
Dropping the Reading stops isn't the answer. There is a significant passenger flow from Reading to points west.

As bobm says, enforcing the pick-up only restrictions is what is needed. A month long carrot and stick operation should educate the Reading commuters.

Devil's advocate here. Maybe, on the odd occasion, run fast to Swindon or Taunton, with a relief service from Reading. Anyone from Paddington over-carried to Taunton or Swindon would then think twice about again boarding a service that isn't advertised to call at Reading.

Gerry Fiennes, when GM of the Western in the late 1960s, did just that! He also put plenty of Ticket Inspectors on the trains to collect the excess fares.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: mjones on November 07, 2014, 16:33:05
I'm not really convinced that creating additional rules for customers to break and suffer penalties for is the best way to improve customer service..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on November 07, 2014, 18:20:10
I'm not really convinced that creating additional rules for customers to break and suffer penalties for is the best way to improve customer service..
What additional rules would those be? 'Pick-up only' has been around for probably a century, or even more. There's nothing 'additional' about it.

The problem is that some people think they know it all and get on trains at Paddington because they 'know' they all stop at Reading. The result is that people making longer distance journeys do so in some discomfort and dwell times are extended because the passengers expecting to board have to wait until those getting off have got off.

This may be more of an issue in future - come electrification it seems that some or all the SETs to Bristol via the Badminton route and Bristol Parkway will not make a station call before Swindon at the earliest to shorten journey times as much as possible. There might be quite a lot of people who get carried past Reading!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on November 07, 2014, 19:07:05
There is a set running around at the moment with 7 Standard Class Carriages (With Micro Buffet) and 1x First Class Carriage (Unrefurb'd). This set has only 1 toilet in First Class and No Wheelchair Space.

Something else that occurred to me the other week and I mentioned in person with another Forum Member. In doing this refurbishment to First Class; FGW are creating an extra Wheelchair Space. Yet we still won't have an RVAR compliant toilet and perhaps worryingly also "Emergency Call for Aid buttons". Both of these are available in the existing Standard Class Accommodation. Other operators also provide these fundamentally basic features in both First and Standard Class.

I was tempted to email FGW about this. But considering they have still not answered 4 emails sent across Q2 and Q3 this year it's likely a complete waste of time.



Also, was it just me. Or did anyone else come across that stupid set that had only slightly less than half a First Class Carriage a couple of weeks back? (Full Size Kitchen)

I don't think it was around like that for very long. I managed it twice in one day though ;D

I also had a rather sour experience 2 weeks ago where First Class was at full capacity. I had ordered lunch from the Travelling Chef. Whilst waiting for the food I had to dash to the toilet at the same time the train called at Bath Spa. When I returned there was someone sat in my seat and I asked them nicely if I could have it back. I was told in no uncertain terms where to go and just as this happened my food arrived. I looked at the host and just said "Apparently you lose your seat if you decide to use the toilet..."

A rather irritated trout was then seated in Coach E to eat lunch opposite a table of hyperactive teenagers. Despite this, by the time I has started eating, the food was so excellent I had forgotten about the affair. When I went to the buffet to return the plate/cutlery and get a drink. The same lady was then lashing into the TM about the lack of toilet paper in the First Class toilet. I can't imagine who was responsible for that............. ;D :-X :P

I am in complete agreement with NickB also. First Class is not a right at birth. But some people seem to act and behave like it is.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on November 07, 2014, 23:34:46
I've said it before but its worth saying again - first class travel isn't a birth right or social apartheid. Anyone can just buy an upgrade if they are so peeved with Standard provision. Perhaps FGW would be better served by encouraging more people to upgrade rather than pleasing no one with the current situation.

I also completely agree with this. The act of filling first class seats using discounted tickets or reducing the mark up (let's face it FGW, your first class offering isn't really that much to write home about anyway) would also have avoided the rather substantial cost to the taxpayer of converting the existing carriages to standard class accommodation, even though the bulk of these will either undergo (I assume) a heavy overhaul to continue duties on West Country services or with other franchises or just scrapped with the advent of IEP...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 08, 2014, 00:31:39
It's a testament to the skills of the HST maintenance and engineering teams at Old Oak Common, St Phillips Marsh, Landore and Laira that they've been able to (just about) match fleet availability with service requirements.

Not to mention the staff at Long Rock, Penzance, who also do their bit.

... and those various depots win awards in so doing.  For example - from the First Great Western press release:

Quote
Monday 27 October 2014

First Great Western depot team wins at Rail Staff Awards

The Technical Team at First Great Western^s Old Oak Common depot have won Depot Team of the Year at the Rail Staff Awards. They won the award ahead of fourteen other teams nominated in the category, including FGW^s own Reading Driver Management team.

The Old Oak Common team was recognised for their successful implementation of new digital communications, to address issues the depot faced in its day-to-day activities. These projects have been so successful they are now being rolled out in other Engineering depots and elsewhere in FGW.

The depot has introduced new digital communications screens to reduce its reliance on paper notices, trialled the use of tablets with vehicle maintenance documents installed on them, and improved recording of train positions on the depot.

Ajmal Akram, Depot Engineering Manager at Old Oak Common, said: "This award is a great honour for our team, especially because we were short-listed by our colleagues and peers across the rail industry and then awarded by the judging panel. This rewards the hard work and effort of the whole team at Old Oak Common to help implement new digital technology, so that we could improve our depot communications. This award shows we're on the right track as we begin to roll the screens out to FGW's other depots."

Mark Hopwood, Managing Director, said: ^I am sure you will join me in congratulating our winning colleagues, and all those who were nominated for a Rail Staff Award. We can all feel proud of this high-profile recognition from our industry peers.^

The OOC team won the award for its successful installation of digital screens with specially designed software. The screens allowed for posters to be uploaded across multiple screens and they reduced the need to manually print and post paper notices. The project received a Best Practice notice during a quality audit from industry certification body RIQC.

A second project was the trial of vehicle maintenance documents on tablet computers. This aimed to replace paper manuals which became damaged or often went missing. Old Oak was the first depot to try this and received another Best Practice notice, this time during a safety audit by QSS.

Thirdly, a digital touchscreen was installed at the depot for recording real-time train positions. This dramatically reduced the phone calls made to the Yard Team Leader to confirm positions, which were creating a major distraction and posed a safety risk.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 08, 2014, 09:40:12


I've said it before but its worth saying again - first class travel isn't a birth right or social apartheid. Anyone can just buy an upgrade if they are so peeved with Standard provision. Perhaps FGW would be better served by encouraging more people to upgrade rather than pleasing no one with the current situation.

This completely misrepresents the situation - no one is suggesting that 1st class travel is a "birthright", the argument is merely that where extra space exists, whatever that space is, it should be able to be utilised to best effect to benefit the majority of customers - customers who are currently paying premium prices for an increasingly unreliable, ridiculously and often dangerously overcrowded services.

I don't necessarily agree with Alok Sharma's position but it is an option worth investigating - it is not "ridiculous" to a lot of people it sounds like plain common sense.

I repeat that had FGW acted in a less churlish manner and simply provided the MP with the information he requested, this petition would probably never have been launched.

Attitudes displayed by some posters on here underscore the contempt with which FGW treats its customers.





Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on November 08, 2014, 09:45:14
When it comes down to it, the real issue is the substantial growth especially in commuter usage which means that demand is much more peaked on the services than it was even 15 years ago. There are still dozens of unused first class seats trundling around in the middle of the day in the majority of main line trains - but there are also generally standard class seats available as well so long as it hasn't been a day of disruption. Peak time and especially on Friday evening there is shortage of everything. Additional stock to match demand is long overdue. I bet when the hi density carriages were created it was thought they would soak up the demand until replacement, but the usage rise has continued.

Maybe they should have just reclassified a carriage as for first class and season ticket holders only ...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on November 08, 2014, 09:52:31
Dropping the Reading stops isn't the answer. There is a significant passenger flow from Reading to points west.


I know, I was just making as suggestion as ridiculous as that made by the Reading MP  ;D

As bobm says, enforcing the pick-up only restrictions is what is needed. A month long carrot and stick operation should educate the Reading commuters.

Devil's advocate here. Maybe, on the odd occasion, run fast to Swindon or Taunton, with a relief service from Reading. Anyone from Paddington over-carried to Taunton or Swindon would then think twice about again boarding a service that isn't advertised to call at Reading.

And FGW did almost that - there was a 19:12 departure to SWA (first stop BPW) proposed, last year sometime, which got as far as having paths, staff, trains in place to act as a relief for the 19:15 RDG, SWI stopper. For once a great idea from the ToC, only for it to be vetoed at the last minute by DfT - it was so last minute that tickets/reservations were on sale at one point & it was included in the online timetables...

Lets face it there are not enough seats between Reading and London at the moment in the peak. So until new trains come any restrictions on one type of service will move the overcrowding onto others.  Restrictions on long distance services will lead to more overcrowding on local trains stopping at Maidenhead, Taplow etc. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on November 08, 2014, 09:55:34
Maybe they should have just reclassified a carriage as for first class and season ticket holders only ...

Why season ticket holders?  They pay least per journey - less even that super off peak. 

GNER used to have carriages for Silver Service - Full fare paying Standard Class Passengers.  That is another way of rewarding those who are paying a premium price. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on November 08, 2014, 10:43:36
Maybe they should have just reclassified a carriage as for first class and season ticket holders only ...

Why season ticket holders?  They pay least per journey - less even that super off peak. 

GNER used to have carriages for Silver Service - Full fare paying Standard Class Passengers.  That is another way of rewarding those who are paying a premium price. 

Agree, season ticket holders receive substantial discounts and mainly use peak time services. I do not see why regular travellers should not receive a MODEST discount, but at present season ticket holders usually pay much less than half the fare per mile paid by other peak time users.
From time to time season ticket holder groups expect priority boarding, or other more favourable treatment than those who have paid the full fare. If anything, those paying heavily discounted fares should be LAST in the queue for seats, not first.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on November 08, 2014, 12:22:12
Yes I know that some people consider season ticket holders to be the spawn of Satan :)

However, this was a suggestion not made of any particular merit in itself, apart from the political dimension.

They can of course reserve seats for a month ahead already but this is not really widely publicised.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on November 08, 2014, 12:25:27
Wouldn't this info have to be tracked as a declassification triggers refunds for 1st class ticket holders?

TM informs control so info is logged for this purpose.

Trains do not have dozens of 1st class seats free while standard is F&S, certainly not now the 1st class changes are happening.

I understand the commuters frustration, but the FGW network does not end in the LTV area.  Why should someone travelling 5 hours to PZ lose their first class seat initially, so a Reading commuter can sit down for their (timetabled) 25 minute journey, and i'm sorry but any campaigning from MPs in the next 6 months is all a bit too late in the day IMO and just pure electioneering - especially when they seemingly ignore the changes currently going on with the HST fleet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 08, 2014, 12:40:20
Hear,. hear to all of that.

Chiltern commuters stand for longer than Reading ones do....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on November 08, 2014, 12:45:43
Last year, not long before Christmas, a season ticket holder demanded that I give up my first class seat for them because "they had paid thousands of pounds" I declined, especially as I had paid the full first open fare ! and booked.
I think that I may have enraged them by stating that season ticket holders should be REQUIRED to stand if someone paying full fare wants the seat.

To return to first class travel in general, IMHO NO discounted tickets should be sold for services that are regularly overcrowded. Since the downgrade of first class, I have regularly seen the "Golden Hind" with standing in first, yet AFAIK discounted tickets are still sold for this service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 08, 2014, 12:46:26
Chiltern commuters stand for longer than Reading ones do....

And of course Chiltern commuters don't have the option of paying for an upgrade to first class*.

* Apart from the two long distance Mainline trains with the Business Zone that operate at roughly commuting times each way.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 08, 2014, 13:07:50
There's four of those now!

1647, 1715, 1815 & 1847 in evening peak, for example


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on November 08, 2014, 13:11:37


To return to first class travel in general, IMHO NO discounted tickets should be sold for services that are regularly overcrowded. Since the downgrade of first class, I have regularly seen the "Golden Hind" with standing in first, yet AFAIK discounted tickets are still sold for this service.

Indeed, looking at Friday 23rd Jan there are standard class seats available to Taunton at ^49.40 on the 1733 and 1803 ex PAD, and 1st class at ^92.80, somewhat less than the standard anytime fare of ^113. Just seems mad if those trains are going to be heavily overcrowded.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 08, 2014, 13:14:11
But they might be under utilised without these Advance fares?...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on November 08, 2014, 13:17:52
Indeed, looking at Friday 23rd Jan there are standard class seats available to Taunton at ^49.40 on the 1733 and 1803 ex PAD, and 1st class at ^92.80, somewhat less than the standard anytime fare of ^113. Just seems mad if those trains are going to be heavily overcrowded.

Unless there are just a few of them - a kind of PR exercise, at minimal cost. You'd need to see how long that offer lasts.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 08, 2014, 13:21:36
There's four of those now!

1647, 1715, 1815 & 1847 in evening peak, for example

Fair enough.  I wasn't including the 16:47 as a commuter train, though I guess it's borderline, and the 18:47 isn't included on the list on their website.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on November 08, 2014, 13:32:57


To return to first class travel in general, IMHO NO discounted tickets should be sold for services that are regularly overcrowded. Since the downgrade of first class, I have regularly seen the "Golden Hind" with standing in first, yet AFAIK discounted tickets are still sold for this service.

Indeed, looking at Friday 23rd Jan there are standard class seats available to Taunton at ^49.40 on the 1733 and 1803 ex PAD, and 1st class at ^92.80, somewhat less than the standard anytime fare of ^113. Just seems mad if those trains are going to be heavily overcrowded.

With a long distance train it is not much good if it is packed for the first 35 miles then empty for the other 250! Offering advance fares to Taunton may therefore make commercial sense. Offering advance fares to Reading would not. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on November 08, 2014, 13:47:07
That's a good point, although I don't believe advance tickets are sold between London and Reading.

Your point highlights the problem, well documented here, of managing traffic flows on a service that goes 300 miles but is potentially chronically overcrowded on the first 36 of those.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 08, 2014, 14:38:12
The proper solution, if ever it could be achieved, would be to offload those travelling those 36 onto other services....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on November 09, 2014, 10:12:35
With Crossrail I think this is inevitable in due course, if HEx even survives at all. Why would you want to pay a premium fare to change at Paddington onto the tube or a taxi when you can get a through train to the West End, Ciy and Canary Wharf. People will vote with their feet, and I suspect the owners of HEx are already working out the optimal exit strategy. Digressing a little from 1st Class etc, but fundamental to the GW main line into the next decade.   

True it is digressing a little but had this happened a while ago would we now be discussing the reduction of First Class??


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 10, 2014, 11:58:55
Shouldn't someone also be reminding Reading commuters what a good deal pence per mile they're getting in comparison? :-)

I will contemplate that thought the next time I am waiting for a train which has been cancelled/delayed/short formed due to one of the seemingly bottomless pits of excuses that are used for the recent/current/ongoing poor service and I am sure that reminding myself what a "good deal" I'm getting will give me a warm glow as I stand on an overcrowded platform in the freezing cold!  ;D ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 10, 2014, 12:10:15
I'm sorry, but the new platforms at REading are designed for this number of commuters now & can't be described sincerely as 'overcrowded'. The trains, yes of course, but not the platforms - there's acres of space for them.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 10, 2014, 12:27:39
I'm sorry, but the new platforms at REading are designed for this number of commuters now & can't be described sincerely as 'overcrowded'. The trains, yes of course, but not the platforms - there's acres of space for them.

That's a fair point - I will count my blessings as I stand on a spacious platform in the freezing cold waiting for a delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, shortformed train  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 11, 2014, 22:39:09
With Crossrail I think this is inevitable in due course, if HEx even survives at all. Why would you want to pay a premium fare to change at Paddington onto the tube or a taxi when you can get a through train to the West End, Ciy and Canary Wharf. People will vote with their feet, and I suspect the owners of HEx are already working out the optimal exit strategy. Digressing a little from 1st Class etc, but fundamental to the GW main line into the next decade.   

True it is digressing a little but had this happened a while ago would we now be discussing the reduction of First Class??

As that very interesting 'digression' in this discussion subsequently took on a whole life of its own, it has now been split off into a new topic, on a new board created for the purpose: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14898.0  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 20, 2014, 07:15:51
After finding no available first class seats on todays 7.08, as is regular these days, I thought I'd wander back into standard rather than standing for my journey.
What did I find? Acres of seats. There must be 15 unoccupied seats even after maidenhead. And this is coach K at the front, not the back.

What an absolute joke.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on November 20, 2014, 08:47:29
I took the very last seat at Reading in 1st today on http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40587/2014/11/20/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40587/2014/11/20/advanced)
It was the new 1.5 carriage configuration.
Is it relatively easy to reclaim the difference under the passenger charter ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 20, 2014, 09:13:51
It weasn't even  a 1.5, just a 1 carriage First.

This template works for me... ^350 in refunds this year and counting.  Always write in, never email, as its easier for them to say no by email.

Customer Services Team
First Great Western
FREEPOST SWB40576
Plymouth
PL4 6ZZ

Ticket Ref  2053****
Photocard ID   CLR****

Dear Sir / Madam,

Due to the reduction in seating capacity and resultant overcrowding no seating was available in First Class on the following services from Maidenhead to Paddington.  Under section 5 of the FGW Passenger^s Charter I wish to claim compensation for this:

The trains were:

Monday 10th November ^ 07.08

Yours faithfully....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on November 20, 2014, 10:53:06
I have recently moved to the West country and therefore am not travelling as much as in the past.
I have however had to stand twice despite having paid the first class fare.
Compensation took ages to arrive but was paid without argument. For one journey they refunded the WHOLE of the first class fare, rather than the difference between First and steerage.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 20, 2014, 12:17:14
I have recently moved to the West country and therefore am not travelling as much as in the past.
I have however had to stand twice despite having paid the first class fare.
Compensation took ages to arrive but was paid without argument. For one journey they refunded the WHOLE of the first class fare, rather than the difference between First and steerage.



That's been my experience too - tends to be refunded in full without question, also despite all the guff about not paying out in respect of "consequential losses", having taken the trouble to write in on several occasions I have had a number of fairly hefty taxi journeys refunded by FGW which were incurred during the recent weeks when everything has fallen over...............interestingly though (as a season ticket holder)I'm still waiting for the mythical letter re: the void day refunds as are loads of people from what I hear!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 20, 2014, 15:07:24
No requirement to pay consequential loss - of course, discretionary payments can always be made, whichever company you complain to!

Are you sure that void was actually confirmed?....it would appear on the period punctuality poster (and I didn't see it)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 20, 2014, 15:15:39
Yep - here it is :

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Customer-services/Refunds

Five void days were declared for each charter group from 10 to 14 February 2014 inclusive.
One void day was declared for each charter group 06 October 2014.




Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 20, 2014, 15:38:55
After finding no available first class seats on todays 7.08, as is regular these days, I thought I'd wander back into standard rather than standing for my journey.
What did I find? Acres of seats. There must be 15 unoccupied seats even after maidenhead. And this is coach K at the front, not the back.

What an absolute joke.

Yes, there were actually seven standard class coaches on that train this morning and just the one first class.  Temporary formations will continue to operate until the refurbishment programme is completed next year, though that's the first time I've spotted that particular formation!

So, that's probably why there was a little more space available in standard class - and also with the delayed 07:02 six carriage Turbo loading up in the other platform at pretty much the same time there may have been people who got on that instead - a wise move this morning given the air leak affecting the 07:08!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 20, 2014, 16:00:59
Yes, there were actually seven standard class coaches on that train this morning and just the one first class.  Temporary formations will continue to operate until the refurbishment programme is completed next year, though that's the first time I've spotted that particular formation!

So, that's probably why there was a little more space available in standard class - and also with the delayed 07:02 six carriage Turbo loading up in the other platform at pretty much the same time there may have been people who got on that instead - a wise move this morning given the air leak affecting the 07:08!

My view was the opposite - the 07.08 actually looked like it was collecting passengers that normally travel on the 07.02.  Platform 4 (for the 7.02) was markedly empty whereas Platform 2 for the 7.08 was businer than normal.  As the 7.08 should have arrived 4 mins earlier than the 7.02, and also pax just love an HST, it makes sense that the 7.08 was busier than average.  Looks like the First Class strip out has swung too far.



Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: BBM on November 20, 2014, 16:07:55
My view was the opposite - the 07.08 actually looked like it was collecting passengers that normally travel on the 07.02.  Platform 4 (for the 7.02) was markedly empty whereas Platform 2 for the 7.08 was businer than normal.

I was on the 07.02 (travelling from TWY) and I'd concur with NickB's observations.  :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on November 20, 2014, 16:08:41
Yes, there were actually seven standard class coaches on that train this morning and just the one first class.  Temporary formations will continue to operate until the refurbishment programme is completed next year, though that's the first time I've spotted that particular formation!

So, that's probably why there was a little more space available in standard class - and also with the delayed 07:02 six carriage Turbo loading up in the other platform at pretty much the same time there may have been people who got on that instead - a wise move this morning given the air leak affecting the 07:08!

My view was the opposite - the 07.08 actually looked like it was collecting passengers that normally travel on the 07.02.  Platform 4 (for the 7.02) was markedly empty whereas Platform 2 for the 7.08 was businer than normal.  As the 7.08 should have arrived 4 mins earlier than the 7.02, and also pax just love an HST, it makes sense that the 7.08 was busier than average.  Looks like the First Class strip out has swung too far.

As per II's comment above, while not comfortable for first class passengers (no that's not acceptable), at this time of year with flat wheelset maintenance and while the refurb is in progress, if another first class coach is not available for a set, all efforts will still be made to make 8 coach sets.  The flip side is i've seen a declassified first class coach running round as coach 'B' before.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 20, 2014, 16:16:32
My view was the opposite - the 07.08 actually looked like it was collecting passengers that normally travel on the 07.02.  Platform 4 (for the 7.02) was markedly empty whereas Platform 2 for the 7.08 was businer than normal.  As the 7.08 should have arrived 4 mins earlier than the 7.02, and also pax just love an HST, it makes sense that the 7.08 was busier than average.  Looks like the First Class strip out has swung too far.

Fair enough - I wasn't there, just looking for potential reasons and spotted that on the train list.

Either way, no permanent HST formations will be like the one that was in use today after the refurbishment programme is completed (i.e. a 7 to 1 standard to first class carriage ratio), they will either be 6.5 to 1.5 or 6 to 1.5 - but with carriages away for modifications it makes for some short notice marshalling and that can throw up oddities like today's extra carriage with its 80 or so extra standard class seats.

I'd be interested to hear, when the train formation is normal, what number of seats free or standees there are in Standard Class over an average week, and whether that number changes (and first class numbers) after season tickets come up for renewal at the end of the year, when we'll see if any first class one way seasons are not renewed due to the problems gaining a seat on the 07:08 train, one of the handful that struggle with first class capacity.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on November 20, 2014, 16:27:26
If there aren't enough 1st class seats for pax at Maidenhead on the 0708, I suspect the end of the 1st class Eastwards only seasons - especially as there will be extra Standard seats


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on November 20, 2014, 16:45:27
As one of those 1st Eastbound Only passengers I view it as a bit of a 'prisoners dilemma'.  Everyone wants others to relinquish their 1st class tickets, but don't want to be the person who does it.   ;D

On a standard day I estimate 50 1st class passengers for the 07.08 at maidenhead.  Nosaj said earlier that they took the last seat at Reading, so even with an extra 0.5 carriages there wouldn't be enough to go round.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on November 29, 2014, 17:56:25
Buffet Car 40809 has been refurbished.

For those who are interested. It's in set OC52 with Power Car 43138 on the London End :)

*Disclaimer* - Correct as of 23:50 - 28/11/2014


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on November 29, 2014, 18:07:44
Also just some observations to compliment what has been said here in the last week.

That 1 First Class Coach K has been around in that set like that for a while. It's also the same carriage that has just 1 Toilet in First Class and this week it was out of order ::) >:(

Just to give you an idea... Here is a picture of it:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-o1DQxX1Fa3Y/U9QPiMIfnuI/AAAAAAAAfB0/63oQMe81iNw/w1044-h316-no/20140726_211236.jpg)

I took that picture on the 26th July 2014 - So just over 4 months ago.

I also saw one of the refurbished First Class Carriages last week in a set as a Coach B... With the First Class wording actually stitched into the seats. I wonder how many confused looks were given when passengers with reservations for Coach B were found to be in a First Class vehicle ;D

Equally I wonder how many passengers took a seat in that carriage with a First Class ticket...?!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: trainer on November 29, 2014, 18:53:53
I noticed today that Coach K is now lettered on the down platform at Bristol Parkway which is helpful (didn't wander further down as I was in cattle class - appropriate for all trains going to Cardiff this morning - see my posting under Additional Trains for Wales v S Africa Rugby... http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14950.msg166319#new).


Edited by trainer to add URL


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on November 29, 2014, 19:00:50
Speaking of rugby and 1st class (and no, I'm not thinking of this afternoon's match in Cardiff, well maybe I am  :) ), 1st class was completely filled last night at Chippenham with rugby fans going to Bath.  They were waiting ready to board at the 1st doors, not filtering through as standard filled up, so clearly set out to travel in the wrong part of the train.

Spoke to the TM who joined at BRI who said that shouldn't happen, "but some TM's can't be bothered".  Somewhat galling when the amount of first accommodation is already much diminished.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on November 29, 2014, 19:48:52
Speaking of rugby and 1st class (and no, I'm not thinking of this afternoon's match in Cardiff, well maybe I am  :) ), 1st class was completely filled last night at Chippenham with rugby fans going to Bath.  They were waiting ready to board at the 1st doors, not filtering through as standard filled up, so clearly set out to travel in the wrong part of the train.

Spoke to the TM who joined at BRI who said that shouldn't happen, "but some TM's can't be bothered".  Somewhat galling when the amount of first accommodation is already much diminished.
The 'rugbyists' in my family seem to think First Class is declassified on these occasions (or that 'pepole power' will trump any attempt to enforce it). I've tried to warn them that folk on here have advised otherwise, and once I checked the firstgreatwestern booking website which only showed the extra FirstGW service starting at Port Talbot as 'standard class only' but they say they'll continue using first class. I wonder what they did today...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on November 30, 2014, 13:45:00
Saw two HSTs at Cardiff on Friday afternoon at the same time going in opposite directions both with just one First class carriage. So there are at least two sets around with just one First coach. If I had been on one of those sets in First at peak time with it full and standing, I wouldn't have been too pleased to hear that a refurb'ed First class coach is doing the rounds as a coach B on another set.

Before anyone replies, yes it's down to different sets at different depots with what stock is available due to maintenance, refurb, wheel flats etc.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 03, 2014, 01:46:29
From Get Reading (http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/mp-alok-sharma-arranges-high-8212519):

Quote
MP Alok Sharma arranges high level meeting to discuss train overcrowding

Reading West MP will discuss the problem with Rail Minister and First Great Western MD

(http://i3.getreading.co.uk/incoming/article8212527.ece/alternates/s615/Alok_train.jpg)
Reading West MP Alok Sharma discussing train petition at Tilehurst station.

Overcrowding on commuter trains will be the subject of a meeting Reading West MP Alok Sharma has arranged with a government minister and the boss of First Great Western (FGW).

The Tory MP and disgruntled rail passenger has held discussions with Rail Minister Claire Perry about the problem and secured her agreement to meet FGW managing director Mark Hopwood.

Mr Sharma launched an online petition last month calling on FGW to declassify First Class carriages during periods of overcrowding, after his experience of commuting into London.

He said: "I'm grateful to Claire Perry for the discussions we have had on the issue of overcrowding and I will be raising the concerns of many of my commuting constituents in the joint meeting with First Great Western that not enough is being done to alleviate overcrowding in Standard Class during the busiest times. The option to declassify individual First Class carriages is available to First Great Western during periods of overcrowding but I have never seen this happen on any service I have used in the past 10 years."

Mr Sharma continued: "I appreciate that more Standard Class carriages are due to become available next year but I will be seeking a commitment from First Great Western in this meeting that in the meantime, they will declassify First Class carriages on busy trains more often to ease overcrowding in Standard Class and publish on a monthly basis the trains on which declassification took place."

Government figures released earlier this year showed commuters on FGW services suffer the highest level of rail overcrowding in the South East with some trains travelling at 173 per cent capacity.

Ms Perry said: "The services on the Great Western mainline are some of the most crowded on the network. That's why ^13 million is being invested creating 3,000 more standard class seats a day for customers across the network. This will also mean nearly 16 per cent more standard class accommodation on services into London in the busy morning peak. These are solutions to improve services for passengers on these busy trains.

"However, I do understand the concerns that Alok has raised on behalf of his constituents and I look forward to a constructive dialogue with Alok and First Great Western on this issue."


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 03, 2014, 11:20:23
I hope the MPs persuade the DfT to compensate FGW for lost 1st class fares in the 'busiest times'.

I've never seen sufficient empty 1st class seats in the busiest times to enable them to declassify a whole coach....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 12:48:17
I've never seen sufficient empty 1st class seats in the busiest times to enable them to declassify a whole coach....

Likewise. In almost 2 years of doing a weekly S.Wales-London return trip, mostly in first class, I've seen first declassified only the once, which was due to a significant number of Bristol TM bound trains being cancelled, so everyone was bumped onto the S.Wales services via Parkway. First class always used to be (with 2-2.5 first class coaches) sufficiently populated with first class ticket holders between PAD-RDG that declassifying would only release a tiny number of seats, so really is not worth inconveniencing those first class passengers who are travelling beyond the Thames Valley area.

I think this chap is living in a parallel universe of some sort if he thinks regularly declassifying first, especially in the new configuration, is going make the slightest bit of difference! There is often space towards the front of HST's, but many RDG commuters seem to prefer to stuff themselves in like sardines in carriages that will stop close to the escalators at RDG.

Out of interest, could one of the insiders confirm if first class can be reclassified, for example after Reading, or once it's gone, is it gone until the train completes its journey?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 03, 2014, 13:29:18
I hope the MPs persuade the DfT to compensate FGW for lost 1st class fares in the 'busiest times'.

I've never seen sufficient empty 1st class seats in the busiest times to enable them to declassify a whole coach....

This isn't necessarily about 1st class seats, it's as much about people having room to stand in relative comfort and safety without being crammed in like sardines - if you spread standees throughout the entire train rather than just standard class it stands to reason that this can be achieved at least to some degree.

As to compensation, the MP's responsibility is to represent the interests of his constituents, not FGW.

There is actually more to this article than meets the eye - for a long time Alok has been trying to get information on declassification (how often it happens etc) from FGW and they have been unwilling to supply it , so now they will have to cope with all the negative publicity which this will (rightly or wrongly) generate.

To be honest however it would be refreshing and cathartic for all concerned to get Hopwood,NR etc in front of a select committee where they are unable to hide and all the issues can be brought out into the open.....I suspect that day is not far off following recent events....in fact it may well generate sympathy for FGW in view of the signals etc.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 13:45:24
There is actually more to this article than meets the eye - for a long time Alok has been trying to get information on declassification (how often it happens etc) from FGW and they have been unwilling to supply it , so now they will have to cope with all the negative publicity which this will (rightly or wrongly) generate.

I don't really see why FGW should provide this data, as it will only be used in an attempt to criticise them in some way - I'm sure they'll be damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Quote

if you spread standees throughout the entire train


I've seen so many HST's bound for Reading with a relatively empty coach A/B/C and the standees all stuffed in further back so they will be close to the escalators at Reading. Many of the trains I've caught out of Paddington have also had the train manager announce that there's plenty seats towards the front, but folk are so obsessed with saving a 30 second walk along a platform that they just ram themselves in wherever there is a hint of a space. People can be their own worst enemies sometimes.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 03, 2014, 14:10:30
Indeed, Mark Hopwood ought to take Alok by the hand to Coach A on several services & show him the space (and occasionally even, empty seats). His voters are a really lazy bunch who would generally stand for 25 mins than look for seats in the front two coaches.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on December 03, 2014, 14:59:21
Anecdotal story from two separate journeys I made in the past week:

First Class was a single carriage, resulting in 20-30 people standing.  Rather than stand I made my way into the first Standard carriage, to find a) 20+ seats empty, and b) significant numbers of pax still standing, as though they didn't want the seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 15:07:01
Anecdotal story from two separate journeys I made in the past week:

First Class was a single carriage, resulting in 20-30 people standing.  Rather than stand I made my way into the first Standard carriage, to find a) 20+ seats empty, and b) significant numbers of pax still standing, as though they didn't want the seats.

Ah, but it might save those vital handful of seconds in escaping Reading station! As I recall coach E/F stop pretty much at the bottom of the escalators at Reading and presumably if you're already standing near the door you can beat a few more people in the desperate race to the escalators!!

I've also often seen on trains if a few people are standing in the vestibule, people tend to join them and blindly assume there are no free seats and then probably complain bitterly about it. There's nowt as queer as folk!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: paul7575 on December 03, 2014, 16:28:03

Ah, but it might save those vital handful of seconds in escaping Reading station! As I recall coach E/F stop pretty much at the bottom of the escalators at Reading and presumably if you're already standing near the door you can beat a few more people in the desperate race to the escalators!!


They haven't worked out the transfer deck is double sided yet then?  Surely coaches A/B are similarly near the country end escalator - especially on P8...

Paul


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on December 03, 2014, 17:13:53
I've already mentioned that they'll only walk as little as necessary - why walk to A/B when E/F will get tyhem there?!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 03, 2014, 19:06:38
Indeed, Mark Hopwood ought to take Alok by the hand to Coach A on several services & show him the space (and occasionally even, empty seats). His voters are a really lazy bunch who would generally stand for 25 mins than look for seats in the front two coaches.

So basically it's not really an issue and the passengers are stupid/lazy - interesting view from the FGW fraternity, I'm sure the MP will find it instructive!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on December 03, 2014, 19:20:57
Some trains are grossly overcrowded throughout, but I have seen many instances of severe overcrowding in std coaches D  or E  when seats remain in A.

IMHO, first class should be at the country end to reduce these problems.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ellendune on December 03, 2014, 19:33:42
Some trains are grossly overcrowded throughout, but I have seen many instances of severe overcrowding in std coaches D  or E  when seats remain in A.

IMHO, first class should be at the country end to reduce these problems.

But then those of us who walk far enough to get a seat would not be able to.



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 03, 2014, 19:52:48
Indeed, Mark Hopwood ought to take Alok by the hand to Coach A on several services & show him the space (and occasionally even, empty seats). His voters are a really lazy bunch who would generally stand for 25 mins than look for seats in the front two coaches.

So basically it's not really an issue and the passengers are stupid/lazy - interesting view from the FGW fraternity, I'm sure the MP will find it instructive!

I don't think any of those posts were from the FGW fraternity - by which I presume you mean the staff, or did you mean the FGW.info Coffee Shop fraternity?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on December 03, 2014, 19:53:22
IMHO, first class should be at the country end to reduce these problems.
One has to wonder that IF First class had been at the country end at Paddington that the reduction in First class accommodation would have even been thought about. Plenty will disagree but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be happening. Still, we can argue about it here but it's not going to change anything as the conversion process is already well under way.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 03, 2014, 19:54:09

Indeed, Mark Hopwood ought to take Alok by the hand to Coach A on several services & show him the space (and occasionally even, empty seats). His voters are a really lazy bunch who would generally stand for 25 mins than look for seats in the front two coaches.

So basically it's not really an issue and the passengers are stupid/lazy - interesting view from the FGW fraternity, I'm sure the MP will find it instructive!

I don't think any of those posts were from the FGW fraternity - by which I presume you mean the staff, or did you mean the firstgreat western.info Coffee Shop fraternity?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 21:57:13
Indeed, Mark Hopwood ought to take Alok by the hand to Coach A on several services & show him the space (and occasionally even, empty seats). His voters are a really lazy bunch who would generally stand for 25 mins than look for seats in the front two coaches.

So basically it's not really an issue and the passengers are stupid/lazy - interesting view from the FGW fraternity, I'm sure the MP will find it instructive!

It was mostly me commenting about the inability of some passengers to actually be bothered to make 30 seconds effort to walk up a platform and find a seat. I am not FGW staff, so please do not knock them on account of me recounting personal experience!

If I could be bothered travelling by train with any frequency, I would be more than happy to accompany this civil servant on one of my journeys and show him the random nature in which people tend to squeeze themselves into trains.

You only have to look at underground trains to see this - outside of the peak hours, often carriages near the platform entrance are stuffed and standing, 10 seconds walk away everyone has several seats to themselves...same type of thing goes on FGW.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: John R on December 03, 2014, 21:58:42
Maybe FGW could video down a few trains and post them on youtube and send to the relevant MPs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 21:59:55
Some trains are grossly overcrowded throughout, but I have seen many instances of severe overcrowding in std coaches D  or E  when seats remain in A.

IMHO, first class should be at the country end to reduce these problems.

Interestingly, the few times I've travelled on a train in reverse formation with first class at the country end, first class has also been rather quieter!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on December 03, 2014, 23:03:23
Maybe FGW could video down a few trains and post them on youtube and send to the relevant MPs.

Yes, or better still would be to fit one or more display screens in E that show a real time view of A, at peak times.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: grahame on December 03, 2014, 23:13:05
Didn't I note that one of the new features of the 800 / 801 classes was for the coaches to do their own passenger counts, real time ... so that they could advertise the available space and where people should stand when waiting to join at intermediate stations.   Will that make any difference to the distribution up the platform, do we think??


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on December 03, 2014, 23:26:54
Didn't I note that one of the new features of the 800 / 801 classes was for the coaches to do their own passenger counts, real time ... so that they could advertise the available space and where people should stand when waiting to join at intermediate stations.   Will that make any difference to the distribution up the platform, do we think??

Yes, I think you are correct about the real time passenger counts and I am of the opinion that it's unlikely to make a difference to the clumps of people found in otherwise normally occupied trains. There will always be plenty of people who get to the station at the last possible minute, jump on at the first open door and stay there, or those who think that saving 3 milliseconds by being 2cm closer to the station exits is really seriously going to make a difference to their lives!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: The Tall Controller on December 03, 2014, 23:34:56
There is currently a set doing the rounds that is formed of 7 coaches, 4 of which are 1st class coaches!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on December 04, 2014, 07:17:57
Amazing! Where can I locate this metallic steed of the gods?!?  ;D

Once found, I shall travel on no other! Then again, I bet the coffee on the trolley gets quite cold by the last carriage...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on December 04, 2014, 09:19:52
Didn't I note that one of the new features of the 800 / 801 classes was for the coaches to do their own passenger counts, real time ... so that they could advertise the available space and where people should stand when waiting to join at intermediate stations.   Will that make any difference to the distribution up the platform, do we think??

Yes, I think you are correct about the real time passenger counts and I am of the opinion that it's unlikely to make a difference to the clumps of people found in otherwise normally occupied trains. There will always be plenty of people who get to the station at the last possible minute, jump on at the first open door and stay there, or those who think that saving 3 milliseconds by being 2cm closer to the station exits is really seriously going to make a difference to their lives!
Depending on which route you are using, platform distribution might become less of a problem with the 800/801. Not because of any newfangled technology but simply because of the axe that is planned to train lengths (discussion here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14894.0)), the trains will just be crammed throughout instead of just at one end.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on December 10, 2014, 11:55:35
Didn't I note that one of the new features of the 800 / 801 classes was for the coaches to do their own passenger counts, real time ... so that they could advertise the available space and where people should stand when waiting to join at intermediate stations.   Will that make any difference to the distribution up the platform, do we think??

I've walked through and taken reservations out of seats that haven't been taken up and started handing them to passengers who are standing - guaranteed seat - but "no thanks, i'll stand i'm getting off at the next stop" (in 1 hr 15 mins).

To be fair, back in the day of all HSS westbound services using the old Platform 4 (now 7), one of the RDG commuters did explain to me, that they have a connection that goes off P4A/B (now 4/5/6), and if losing a few minutes into Reading, the chance of making that connection is very tight.  By squeezing into the back of the train, there is a much higher chance of them making the connection, rather than being stuck at Reading for another 30 minutes when they're going home.  That's another reason why you may see West of England trains busier as they are normally platformed on P7 (closer to P4/5/6) than Bristol bound trains that will be further away.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on December 10, 2014, 12:19:02
I was on the 8.41 Maidenhead to Paddington earlier (turbo) and first class turned out to be at the front.. The train stops at Slough and Southall. As usual at Southall First Class filled up (more likely when it is at the front). A ticket collector then came in and tried to move people out of First Class who didn't have first class tickets.. End result was some very aggressive shouty people (put me off reading my book!) who refused to move as they said that the train was dangerously overcrowded (it wasn't).. He quite rightly pointed out that the back carriage had seats in but they were just as aggressive with him as before..

Not the best start to the morning and least so for him so I did go and offer him my support once we were off the train and explain that I'd not backed him up on the train as it would have made the shouty people shout at me too (another passenger had already tried it with that result). He did appear to have taken it all in his stride though so I hope it was the case..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 10, 2014, 14:55:03
I was on the 8.41 Maidenhead to Paddington earlier (turbo) and first class turned out to be at the front.. The train stops at Slough and Southall. As usual at Southall First Class filled up (more likely when it is at the front). A ticket collector then came in and tried to move people out of First Class who didn't have first class tickets.. End result was some very aggressive shouty people (put me off reading my book!) who refused to move as they said that the train was dangerously overcrowded (it wasn't).. He quite rightly pointed out that the back carriage had seats in but they were just as aggressive with him as before..

Not the best start to the morning and least so for him so I did go and offer him my support once we were off the train and explain that I'd not backed him up on the train as it would have made the shouty people shout at me too (another passenger had already tried it with that result). He did appear to have taken it all in his stride though so I hope it was the case..


That behaviour is inexcusable but I've heard some pretty scary accounts about Southall station over the last few mornings, apparently at one point this morning the platforms were dangerously overcrowded and there was little evidence of any staff around to ensure safety.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on December 22, 2014, 20:32:19
I was on a train the other day where coach K was standard class.. How does that work on the seat reservation system? As I'm sure they can't be sure which set will work which route for definite?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on December 26, 2014, 16:47:29
Just to put this issue to bed:

Quote from: First Great Western Customer Relations
I have also considered your comment about there being no First Class on this service, and as such you did not use your ticket to its full. I am therefore happy to enclose a ^7.60 Rail Travel Voucher to compensate the difference between First and Standard Class travel. This will be sent to your postal address.

I have also received the same for Declassified First Class when 1A37 had lighting failures in coaches A though D inclusive.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on January 04, 2015, 23:08:41
I have just bought (not renewed unfortunately as Christmas holidays meant a couple of weekly tickets meanwhile so no discount for bad service   ??? ;D) my next monthly season ticket (Maidenhead to all zones) and I've given up the First Class eastbound only element and I'll get a slower train and see how that goes.. Sadly that almost feels like FGW (or whoever plans their trains) has won...

Incidentally when I looked at prices on line to day they are still offering First Class East bound only on annual season tickets so they obviously think there will still be enough First Class seats each morning for the next year ::) ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ollie on January 05, 2015, 00:04:15
I have just bought (not renewed unfortunately as Christmas holidays meant a couple of weekly tickets meanwhile so no discount for bad service   ??? ;D) my next monthly season ticket (Maidenhead to all zones) and I've given up the First Class eastbound only element and I'll get a slower train and see how that goes.. Sadly that almost feels like FGW (or whoever plans their trains) has won...

Incidentally when I looked at prices on line to day they are still offering First Class East bound only on annual season tickets so they obviously think there will still be enough First Class seats each morning for the next year ::) ::)

Did your last monthly expire less than 28 days ago? If renewing within 28 days, you should still get any passenger charter discount that is currently being offered.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on January 05, 2015, 06:55:02
I can't remember exactly but I had two weeklies leading up to Christmas so it would have been about the 7th December I imagine.. I always thought you had to renew within two weeks to get any sort of discounts? I didn't ask but I think the guy checked when I had my last ticket before selling me my new one.. It looks as if I just missed out though.. Oh well..


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on January 05, 2015, 07:21:34

Incidentally when I looked at prices on line to day they are still offering First Class East bound only on annual season tickets so they obviously think there will still be enough First Class seats each morning for the next year ::) ::)

Full and standing in 1st on the 7.08 today. No ticket check carried out.
Happy new year.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on January 05, 2015, 08:05:42
On the train this morning I took a seat in First Class. TM saw me get on and came down to move me. Yes, move, before even asking to see my ticket.

TM: "This is First Class sir, could you move down the train please?"
Me: "Why?"
TM: "Because this is First Class, you need to hold a First Class ticket to sit here." (TM Gestures down the train)
Me: "I know, I have a First Class Season thanks... So I have taken my seat correctly"
TM: "Yeah yeah, they all say that..."
*Gets season ticket out*
Me: "Yes, they do... But at least I can support that claim"

TM Storms off. No Apology. No anything. Just stormed off. Someone is having a bad 2015 then :-\ ::)

Happy new year.

My sentiments exactly... I need to lose the hoodie :'( :-X >:(



In all seriousness, happy new year. As I have yet to say this on the forum ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on January 05, 2015, 09:40:20
I would have made a note of the name on their badge & complained....sorry, but hoody-ism is unacceptable


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: johoare on January 05, 2015, 22:06:26
My first day without First Class was no better than with it in terms of delays..on the plus side I had a seat or two for nearly half of my journey before it got no better than the fast trains.. on the minus side I got to work half hour late.. Not a happy new year travel wise.. >:(


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 05, 2015, 22:55:05
TM Storms off. No Apology. No anything. Just stormed off. Someone is having a bad 2015 then :-\ ::)

... I need to lose the hoodie :'( :-X >:(

I would have made a note of the name on their badge & complained....sorry, but hoody-ism is unacceptable

As you will have details of the specific train service involved, thetrout, I suggest that you do send in a formal complaint to the train operating company. They will be able to identify their own Train Manager.  :-X


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on January 21, 2015, 07:52:17
My first trip this morning in a refurbished 'GWR' 1st Class carriage. I'm on the 0716 Bristol TM - Swansea. I'm impressed. The WiFi is giving me 13Mbps which is excellent, although only two of us in the carriage and the other person may not be using it.

I think the yield management on this service could do wirh looking at though. Standard Class is healthily loaded but there are just two of us in the two full 1st Class carriages.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 21, 2015, 09:09:54
Dont you think the lighting is a bit dim now compared with before.  Perhaps FGW are trying to pacify us into not noticing that the train is delayed by 30 minutes again  ;) ::) :P


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on January 21, 2015, 11:32:51
I like the subdued lighting. Much better than the star going supernova brightness in Standard!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on January 21, 2015, 12:09:08
The overall d^cor is somewhat darker too.  I suspect it is deliberate mood lighting - encouraging people to speak softly into their mobiles rather than barking orders, shouting, arguing and - if you are in HR - discussing the hiring and vetting processes of various, not so anonymous employees. 

Really HR guys, if you appreciated that everyone in your carriage can overhear your conversation, and often that of the replier, you would be somewhat more discreet - and considerate to the rest of us. God, I miss my quiet coach!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on January 21, 2015, 12:15:40
Sometimes I enjoy eavesdropping. Especially when it's  FGW staff discussing their lot. You can learn a lot. A respect for their privacy, even if they are being a little indiscreet, prevents me posting what I just overheard...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 21, 2015, 12:23:26
Sometimes I enjoy eavesdropping. Especially when it's  FGW staff discussing their lot. You can learn a lot. A respect for their privacy, even if they are being a little indiscreet, prevents me posting what I just overheard...

Indeed, I have overheard assorted discussions myself. It is also possible to gather interesting snippets by engaging the buffet staff and/or train manager in friendly conversation on a quiet late evening service, especially if they recognise you as a regular (which I am no more)...!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 21, 2015, 12:25:35
Dont you think the lighting is a bit dim now compared with before.  Perhaps FGW are trying to pacify us into not noticing that the train is delayed by 30 minutes again  ;) ::) :P

On the subject of lighting, has anyone noticed if they have retained those ghastly mirror-like coated windows that are virtually impossible to see out of at night?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 21, 2015, 22:32:15
Is that the anti graffiti plastic laminate?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 22, 2015, 10:17:27
Is that the anti graffiti plastic laminate?

Ah, that could be the culprit. The anti-graffiti coating used on Underground, where I know it is widely used, seems to be much less reflective at night, which is why I'd assumed the FGW stuff was some sort of reflective coating or fancy glass that someone thought would be sensible, rather just graffiti proof. Either way, at night it pretty much turns each window into a mirror and I don't much like not being able to see out!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 22, 2015, 11:02:36
Dont you think the lighting is a bit dim now compared with before.  Perhaps FGW are trying to pacify us into not noticing that the train is delayed by 30 minutes again  ;) ::) :P

I had my first trip in a newly refurbished First Class coach yesterday, and noticed the dimmer lighting straight away.  Ok if you're looking a computer screen etc, but I wonder how you'd get on trying to read a book or newspaper at night with no light coming through the windows?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on January 22, 2015, 11:04:46
Hmm....I know :-)

Try sitting there while it gets dark - alternatively, hold your hand over the light sensor at the end of the coach....:-)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on January 22, 2015, 11:33:16
FGW can't win. I remember all the posts on this and other forums, and complaints online after the previous refresh. So many of those complaints were about the lighting being too bright.

I personally hope the new 1st Class lighting and tinted windows makes it into Standard Class as well.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on January 22, 2015, 11:36:02
A personal light above each seat would cure everyone's grumbling....like they (used to) have in the 166 1st class. Not sure why they didn't install them in this refresh.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 22, 2015, 16:05:14
Individual reading lights, with armrest switches, were a feature of most builds of first class accommodation in the past.  From a maintenance point of view it's good they've gone - having to check 48 lights per carriage every night (or whenever) was tedious and time-consuming.

BNM, FGW can win. There's no fundamental problem providing lighting which allows book reading while not being overpowering - most libraries, hotel lounges etc seem to manage it OK. If the light level is found to be a bit low there should be no problem fitting higher output light fittings or different diffusers. This isn't really a big issue: overall, as others have said, the interiors look good.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on January 22, 2015, 16:49:26
Individual reading lights, with armrest switches, were a feature of most builds of first class accommodation in the past.  From a maintenance point of view it's good they've gone - having to check 48 lights per carriage every night (or whenever) was tedious and time-consuming.

That maintenance issue should disappear now that LEDs are the lamp of choice.

Potentially. I add that as the makers still have to get the electronics design right, which with CFLs they often didn't.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 28, 2015, 00:19:12
From Newbury Today (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2015/commuters-to-benefit-from-3000-extra-seats), an update on Alok Sharma MP's meeting with Mark Hopwood (MD, FGW) and Claire Perry MP (Transport Minister):

Quote
Commuters to benefit from 3,000 extra seats

Passengers on crowded trains travelling through West Berkshire are set to benefit from extra seating.

Working with the Department for Transport, First Great Western has committed to converting first-class carriages in its fleet to increase the number of standard-class seats to help reduce overcrowding.

Before work began some of the trains had two-and-a-half first-class carriages and others had two first-class carriages.

When the work is completed, all high speed trains serving Reading will have one-and-a-half first-class carriages, adding 80 and 38 standard-class seats to each train respectively and delivering a total of an extra 3,000 standard-class seats every day.

The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

The announcement follows a meeting held by the MP for Reading West, Alok Sharma, the managing director of First Great Western, Mark Hopwood, and the rail minister and Devizes MP Claire Perry.

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats. He said: ^It was good to hear about the progress being made on converting first-class carriages into standard class, but I have asked First Great Western and the Department for Transport to go further and see what more can be done to speed up the conversion to standard-class seats, and on local stopping services, to consider removing first-class carriages entirely.^

Mr Hopwood confirmed that his company had already increased standard seats on local Reading services by 21 per cent and is two-thirds of the way through converting a first-class carriage into standard class on every high speed train serving Reading, meaning 2,000 of the extra 3,000 seats promised were already online.

He said: ^We appreciated the opportunity to take Alok through what we have done, and what we are planning to do to ease capacity for our Reading customers. In the past two years we have added around 7,000 additional seats to our Reading services at peak times, and we are always looking at new ways to secure more. However, given the growth in popularity of our rail services, it is a challenge keeping pace with demand. The long-term solution is, of course, the electrification of the main line, which will deliver bigger, faster trains for our customers. The first of these new trains will be introduced in 2018.^


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on January 28, 2015, 09:52:07
From Newbury Today (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2015/commuters-to-benefit-from-3000-extra-seats), an update on Alok Sharma MP's meeting with Mark Hopwood (MD, FGW) and Claire Perry MP (Transport Minister):

Quote
Commuters to benefit from 3,000 extra seats

Passengers on crowded trains travelling through West Berkshire are set to benefit from extra seating.

Working with the Department for Transport, First Great Western has committed to converting first-class carriages in its fleet to increase the number of standard-class seats to help reduce overcrowding.

Before work began some of the trains had two-and-a-half first-class carriages and others had two first-class carriages.

When the work is completed, all high speed trains serving Reading will have one-and-a-half first-class carriages, adding 80 and 38 standard-class seats to each train respectively and delivering a total of an extra 3,000 standard-class seats every day.

The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

The announcement follows a meeting held by the MP for Reading West, Alok Sharma, the managing director of First Great Western, Mark Hopwood, and the rail minister and Devizes MP Claire Perry.

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats. He said: ^It was good to hear about the progress being made on converting first-class carriages into standard class, but I have asked First Great Western and the Department for Transport to go further and see what more can be done to speed up the conversion to standard-class seats, and on local stopping services, to consider removing first-class carriages entirely.^

Mr Hopwood confirmed that his company had already increased standard seats on local Reading services by 21 per cent and is two-thirds of the way through converting a first-class carriage into standard class on every high speed train serving Reading, meaning 2,000 of the extra 3,000 seats promised were already online.

He said: ^We appreciated the opportunity to take Alok through what we have done, and what we are planning to do to ease capacity for our Reading customers. In the past two years we have added around 7,000 additional seats to our Reading services at peak times, and we are always looking at new ways to secure more. However, given the growth in popularity of our rail services, it is a challenge keeping pace with demand. The long-term solution is, of course, the electrification of the main line, which will deliver bigger, faster trains for our customers. The first of these new trains will be introduced in 2018.^

Thank goodness for the Reading MP doing his election campaigning, we'd have had no idea this was happening otherwise  ::)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on January 28, 2015, 12:52:09
Quote
Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats.

I wonder what his thoughts are on passengers standing in first class vestibules when there are empty standard class sets ?




Edit note: Quote marks amended, for clarity. CfN.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on January 28, 2015, 13:16:40
Quote
The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.
So all the full-buffet sets are now fully formed with 1x FO, 1x buffet first 5x TSO and 1x TGS now, with no odd formations or short-formed sets? But some micro-buffet sets still with 2x FO and/or odd formations?

Quote
Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats.

I wonder what his thoughts are on passengers standing in first class vestibules when there are empty standard class sets ?
I would guess the answer would be something like this: "If it was all standard class, there would be nobody standing in first class vestibles, because there would be no first class vestibles to stand in". Although, a politition would probably put it less bluntly, or avoid answering the question.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on January 28, 2015, 15:36:52
I've been puzzled all along by this thread, and the number of posts apparently based on the belief that FGW have some devious scheme to lose money by reducing 1st class, and don't realise that it runs full on some trains.

It seems clear enough to me that the current programme is (as the press releases said) imposed and paid for by DfT, and was decided by the government as politicians, not just by DfT officials. You may suspect Alok Sharma believes what he said ("it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats"), while most of the government personally believe the opposite, but they are no longer prepared to stand up to defend that view publicly.

The issue arises, in broad terms, like this: 1st class over longer distances is not likely to run full at the new levels in HSTs, because it costs so much. (Advances don't alter the argument, as they will not be offered on trains with good 1st class loadings if the system is working properly.) Most passengers on trains that are full are London commuters, but only a few services have a lot of 1st class passengers. There has to be a train with a proper 1st class on it, i.e. a long distance one, and a long enough trip to make having a seat really valuable. But it also has to be short enough for the season to be affordable by a lot of people, with enough able and willing to pay the 1st class premium to get a seat. So Maidenhead is probably the best example of this, at least on FGW.

That is the key point here: politicians are no longer prepared to defend the right to pay extra to get a seat in a train that's full. If the capacity issues can't be solved by the current wave of infrastructure spending and the end of the associated  "DMU shortage", or if similar overcrowding spreads further into the network, similar pressure against 1st class may become more widespread.

Government policy and what they have said about Civil Service use of 1st class is an indicator of this trend in politicians' public stance. This telegraph piece today (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11373322/How-officials-spent-100m-on-taxis-first-class-rail-travel-and-business-class-flights.html) shows why they are so defensive about it - if even the Torygraph says it! But note the statistics; CS 1st class spend has gone down, but levelled off at about half what it was in 2010 - so not such a major loss for the railways as it seemed at first.

If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again. Or will there be less demand, if seats are now available in standard? But by then the semi-fasts may well be cut out for other capacity reasons. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 28, 2015, 20:25:18
Thank goodness for the Reading MP doing his election campaigning, we'd have had no idea this was happening otherwise  ::)

That may have been why I posted that particular 'news' item, Super Guard.  ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on January 29, 2015, 10:26:21
If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on January 29, 2015, 11:14:15
If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.

I was thinking about trains in general when I said that, not HSTs, as SETs and other EMUs will be here by then. Incidentally, if we don't have a definitive statement about the catering fit for the FGW SETs, presumably we also don't know what the class makeup will be - in both cases there was an initial version as costed, but they could be easily altered for an incoming franchisee and even more easily if not yet built.

But the retained West Country HSTs do look a candidate for separate treatment. They will serve the longest routes, and presumably will have more "proper" catering for that reason. At the start, there should be so many carriages to choose from that altering the make-up would not be costly. However, the high cost of 1st class on top of the price for such journeys will always be an issue.

But capacity is the key. If there is space in both classes, moving the boundary can be a commercial decision, together with setting the prices and service offering. Maximising profit like that, with no sneaky tricks, should produce something a lot of people want.

Similarly, First Advance has to pull in more cash from those who would never pay a full 1st class than it loses when sold to those who would have, so it is importance in setting prices or seating is marginal.

As soon as space runs out all that logic falls apart. However, that does not have to mean spare space on all trains. I would not be at all surprised if these long-distance (HST) services end up with compulsory reservation, in some form.

Perhaps it will all depend on the marketing approach adopted ...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 29, 2015, 11:19:57
If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.

Speaking from personal experience, the availability (only the more expensive advance variants are now available) of advance firsts has changed noticeably on 'shoulder services' since these changes were announced, certainly S.Wales to London. So much so that I now do my (weekly long distance) commute by the cheapest possible means - by car, which costs me about half the price of a typical standard advance return and takes me an hour less, per single journey!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 29, 2015, 11:25:50
I would not be at all surprised if these long-distance (HST) services end up with compulsory reservation, in some form.

I vaguely recall from many years ago that Virgin trains proposed this and it was rejected outright after a rather public backlash in the press. My memory might be completely wrong, so happy to stand corrected on this if anyone has any other info!

I suspect such a proposal wouldn't go down terribly well. Especially with the Reading commuters...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: stuving on January 29, 2015, 12:39:51
I would not be at all surprised if these long-distance (HST) services end up with compulsory reservation, in some form.

I vaguely recall from many years ago that Virgin trains proposed this and it was rejected outright after a rather public backlash in the press. My memory might be completely wrong, so happy to stand corrected on this if anyone has any other info!

I suspect such a proposal wouldn't go down terribly well. Especially with the Reading commuters...

Really? Currently the first train even from Exeter gets into Paddington at 08:38, and the next at 09:44. So not a lot us use to commuters. The evening is a bit more difficult to manage, for several reasons, but again only a minority of  trains - 2 per hour or so - are involved.

It's all going to depend on the capacity balance - how many new commuters, less those that use Crossrail, against the outer suburban/semifast service plus some space in SETs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 29, 2015, 12:55:06
I would not be at all surprised if these long-distance (HST) services end up with compulsory reservation, in some form.

I vaguely recall from many years ago that Virgin trains proposed this and it was rejected outright after a rather public backlash in the press. My memory might be completely wrong, so happy to stand corrected on this if anyone has any other info!

I suspect such a proposal wouldn't go down terribly well. Especially with the Reading commuters...

Really? Currently the first train even from Exeter gets into Paddington at 08:38, and the next at 09:44. So not a lot us use to commuters. The evening is a bit more difficult to manage, for several reasons, but again only a minority of  trains - 2 per hour or so - are involved.

It's all going to depend on the capacity balance - how many new commuters, less those that use Crossrail, against the outer suburban/semifast service plus some space in SETs.

I used to use S.Wales services arriving at PAD typically at 10.32 and on return those departing from PAD at 18:45, 19:15, 20:15 or 21:15, which have picked up/dropped off significant numbers of people at Reading and most of which are well outside 'conventional' working hours, so I would expect the services you mention are likely quite heavily used, as you could easily be at most locations in zone 1 by 9.30-10am. There seem to be a goodly proportion of Reading commuters who think the world ends at Tilehurst (or Reading West) and any meddling with 'their' fast services seems to be met with some outrage.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on January 29, 2015, 14:08:50
There seem to be a goodly proportion of Reading commuters who think the world ends at Tilehurst (or Reading West) and any meddling with 'their' fast services seems to be met with some outrage.

Well it does, doesn't it? ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on January 29, 2015, 14:47:53
There seem to be a goodly proportion of Reading commuters who think the world ends at Tilehurst (or Reading West) and any meddling with 'their' fast services seems to be met with some outrage.

Well it does, doesn't it? ;)

I can actually confirm that I have successfully travelled beyond Tilehurst on a number of occasions, and I have made it back again!  ;D

However, I've not yet dared to see what happens after passing through Reading West...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 29, 2015, 15:32:02
There seem to be a goodly proportion of Reading commuters who think the world ends at Tilehurst (or Reading West) and any meddling with 'their' fast services seems to be met with some outrage.

Well it does, doesn't it? ;)

I can actually confirm that I have successfully travelled beyond Tilehurst on a number of occasions, and I have made it back again!  ;D

However, I've not yet dared to see what happens after passing through Reading West...


If you're not careful you may end up in Swindon!  :o


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on January 30, 2015, 07:14:17
Question: is there such a thing as First Class on a turbo service any longer? (Was there ever some might wonder). I ask as I caught an earlier than usual service today and although I wanted to sit in First I've ended up in a reclassified section.

Given the lack of trolley, cafe, free paper or even the proclaimed 'warm welcome on board' (the driver hasn't even told us where we're going), all I have is a seat. So my standard class ticket holders around me have the same benefits as I would as a First class holder ie. None except more legroom.

So, should all turbos give up the pretext and be 100% standard? That would surely please Ashok and his blinkered view of the world.
Also, should I be entitled to a refund of the First class ticket for this journey because I am for all intents and purposes seated in Standard.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on January 30, 2015, 07:51:47
The biggest game for premium ticket holder on Turbos is guessing which end contains their seats.  It isn't helped by the false flagging that continues to be displayed by some of the previously double-ended sets which still sport a yellow strip over their declassified seats.  From observation over the past four years, occupation of (genuine) premium seating is rarely policed, and I do wonder how FGW can be justified in charging a premium of over 100% for the privilege of using this (frankly) second-rate accommodation.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on January 30, 2015, 11:33:02
Question: is there such a thing as First Class on a turbo service any longer?

It depends :)
When the Reading to Basingstoke line switched from Turbo's to 150's on Weekdays then this was driven by a capacity increase at the expense of first class.
I got a partial refund on my season ticket at the time.
Turbo's still regularly run this service (probably because the 150's need to be driven into a landfill site) which causes a degree of uncertainty amongst passengers.
Sometimes the train manager will point out that the service is declassified but usually not.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: didcotdean on January 30, 2015, 11:54:48
Historically quite a few of the Thames Valley stopping services didn't offer first class accommodation. On some routes it was only available in peak time (as maybe a through train from a branch), or even every other service. The rest were second (or third!) class only. The turbo fleet finally put paid to this as the stock became much more standardised rather than being comprised of a greater variety of 'heritage' dmus and coaches. As elsewhere not enough were bought exacerbated by demand had been to some extent suppressed by the worn out nature of some of the older trains. The turbos increased usage by over 10% in a year, before the subsequent general rise in rail usage.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on January 30, 2015, 18:12:25
From Newbury Today (http://www.newburytoday.co.uk/2015/commuters-to-benefit-from-3000-extra-seats), an update on Alok Sharma MP's meeting with Mark Hopwood (MD, FGW) and Claire Perry MP (Transport Minister):

Quote
Commuters to benefit from 3,000 extra seats

Passengers on crowded trains travelling through West Berkshire are set to benefit from extra seating.[/b
The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

Thought I'd check this evening to be sure and I was right. The 17.48 to Worcester is still a full sized 2.5 carriage section, so thats a lie. And guess what? There's loads of seats in standard too. On a Friday. In rush hour. 😀


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2015, 18:52:33
Thought I'd check this evening to be sure and I was right. The 17.48 to Worcester is still a full sized 2.5 carriage section, so thats a lie. And guess what? There's loads of seats in standard too. On a Friday. In rush hour. 😀

That's a bit odd - the rostered rake of coaches (LA05) is listed as 2 first class and 6 standard class?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on January 30, 2015, 19:07:50
Definitely a 2.5.
Wouldn't all future computations of First class need to be x +.5 as the buffet car contains the refitted first class seats?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on January 30, 2015, 19:53:59
Definitely a 2.5.
Wouldn't all future computations of First class need to be x +.5 as the buffet car contains the refitted first class seats?

At present yes, but in the longer term I expect that the first class seats in the buffet will be replaced with steerage seats and the vehicle put in the train the other way round so as to give one full first class coach.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Rhydgaled on January 30, 2015, 20:02:55
Quote
The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.
So all the full-buffet sets are now fully formed with 1x FO, 1x buffet first 5x TSO and 1x TGS now, with no odd formations or short-formed sets? But some micro-buffet sets still with 2x FO and/or odd formations?
The 17.48 to Worcester is still a full sized 2.5 carriage section, so thats a lie. And guess what?
There's at least one photo, dated early January, showing a full 2+8 set with 2.5 first class in the Feburary Modern Railways too.

Wouldn't all future computations of First class need to be x +.5 as the buffet car contains the refitted first class seats?
Not for that reason, since the micro-buffet coaches I believe will continue to be standard-class only. However, the 2x FO coaches in those sets are being replaced by 1x FO and a composite coach, so once the composite coaches arrive the norm will be 1.5 coaches of first class on all sets.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on January 30, 2015, 20:55:06
Have also seen that 2.5 this week :-)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on January 30, 2015, 21:31:08
Thought I'd check this evening to be sure and I was right. The 17.48 to Worcester is still a full sized 2.5 carriage section, so thats a lie. And guess what? There's loads of seats in standard too. On a Friday. In rush hour. 😀

That's a bit odd - the rostered rake of coaches (LA05) is listed as 2 first class and 6 standard class?

When was M a standard class coach?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on January 31, 2015, 09:12:35
None of the full size buffets have yet had tgeir seats swapped for the new ones. The full length 1sts are being dine to start with


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 31, 2015, 11:13:46
When was M a standard class coach?

'M' is used quite a lot within the coach lettering TOPS uses - which feeds Genius that I used to get the screen grab.  Not sure why.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Super Guard on January 31, 2015, 12:00:53
None of the full size buffets have yet had tgeir seats swapped for the new ones. The full length 1sts are being dine to start with

One of them certainly has.  I believe it was the set that formed the 07:40 PGN-PAD (on Friday) with 1 1/2 1st class and both coaches had the new seats, which stuck in my mind as I normally only see 1 coach with the new seats in per set.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TRAINMAN57 on January 31, 2015, 12:36:49
Think the vehicle in question was 40802, as the refurbed buffet coach.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 01, 2015, 07:44:26
None of the full size buffets have yet had tgeir seats swapped for the new ones. The full length 1sts are being dine to start with

One of them certainly has.  I believe it was the set that formed the 07:40 PGN-PAD (on Friday) with 1 1/2 1st class and both coaches had the new seats, which stuck in my mind as I normally only see 1 coach with the new seats in per set.

You might want to double check your sources Chris B. Someone is telling you porkies...

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uQecWxw7uGQ/VJMs2KfYRVI/AAAAAAAAneQ/by1ofQ3Sroc/w1580-h889-no/20141218_192218.jpg)

That was taken on the 18th December 2014


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on February 01, 2015, 09:36:51
In the foreground on the left is the new "Alok Sharma seat" where first class passengers must perch after finding no available seating.

😄
(Edited to get the guy's name right, which hopefully makes more sense!) 😄


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 01, 2015, 09:43:06
May be they turned one out as a trial/mock up


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on February 01, 2015, 15:14:47
Still at least two sets running around with just one FC coach.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on February 01, 2015, 15:55:39
And I don't think any composite coaches have been started on yet. Looks like it's been full 1st Class coaches done first, then buffet/kitchen coaches (TRFB), with the composites (50% 1st/50% Std) being done last.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 04, 2015, 09:37:17
And I don't think any composite coaches have been started on yet. Looks like it's been full 1st Class coaches done first, then buffet/kitchen coaches (TRFB), with the composites (50% 1st/50% Std) being done last.

Which is a strange order if you want to provide the extra capacity as quickly as possible, as you'd surely leave the TRFB's until last as they're a like-for-like conversion?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on February 22, 2015, 19:29:13
Finally travelled on my first train with two refurbished first class coaches. 

Only snag was both were labelled as coach K!

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/coachk.jpg)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on February 22, 2015, 19:44:17
That's temporary though, isn't it? All sets will ultimately have 1.5 1st Class Coaches. Either 1+ Full Buffet or 1+ Composite. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on February 22, 2015, 19:49:06
That's temporary though, isn't it? All sets will ultimately have 1.5 1st Class Coaches. Either 1+ Full Buffet or 1+ Composite. 

Sorry should have said one was 40904 - a wendy house kitchen.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 23, 2015, 08:53:37
Just an update on this, with Mr Sharma again.

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/first-great-western-trains-track-8694962


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on February 23, 2015, 09:17:00
Politicians are great, eh? Doncha just love 'em?

Quote
He urged the train boss to make sure the increased capacity trains became available within weeks rather than months.

At the meeting, he also asked FGW to get rid of first class carriages completely on local stopping trains.

Of course, having converted them, FGW were going to just leave them sitting in depots unused? Of course they were.

And a failure on the second request completely. And taking the honours after he jumped on the bandwagon on the first. Good going, you pillock.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on February 23, 2015, 17:45:13
Media release regards the composite coach from FGW:
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/About-Us/Media-Centre/2015/February/passengers-to-benefit-from-additional-carriages


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on February 23, 2015, 18:53:59
I trust FGW are going to make it clear that going through that door is entering 1st Class. From the picture there are no signs or warnings.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on February 23, 2015, 22:39:02
I trust FGW are going to make it clear that going through that door is entering 1st Class. From the picture there are no signs or warnings.

Judging by that picture it looks like getting the First Class trolley through there might be a squeeze.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on February 24, 2015, 08:14:03
Judging by that picture it looks like getting the First Class trolley through there might be a squeeze.

I much suspect it will be left in the vestibule, in the empty cupboard behind the power car (What used to be a toilet) or as I've more commonly seen... In the wheelchair space ::)



I believe there now at least 4 TFRB's in circulation with the refurbished First Class seating.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on February 24, 2015, 10:04:12
There was one on 1L05 this morning.  Couldn't see any stickers on the door, but then I was on the inside looking out, and it was quite a dark smoky glass. FC trolley was reversed at the door and parked in the vestibule prior to the next service post-Reading.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on March 30, 2015, 14:19:53
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kQ-15oBxkJk/VRc0-O2H_cI/AAAAAAAAp_8/AB5xYqMX2pg/w958-h539-no/20150328_231011.jpg)

Editted to add. Also has a sticker advising entry to First Class seating :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 29, 2015, 12:22:21
I see that Virgin West Coast are modifying their 9-car Pendolino train to give an extra standard class carriage and a 6/3 standard/first split instead of 5/4.  This equates to an extra 76 standard seats (with the loss of 46 first class ones).  About time too as I can't understand why they weren't specified like that when built!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 29, 2015, 14:26:09
Even 6/3 is vastly different to FGW's 6.5/1.5.

As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made.  This goes against National Conditions of Carriage and their own Passengers Charter.  Disgraceful on so many levels.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on April 29, 2015, 14:26:51
I believe that's possibly from when Virgin Trains tried to go for a 3 Class Railway. Standard Class, Silver Service and First Class?

This was the same Virgin Trains that with their XC Franchise originally named First Class as Club Class.

Except you could never buy a Club Class Ticket so technically you could never travel legitamately under the NRCOC as a ticket for the service didn't exist...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 29, 2015, 14:54:24
Even 6/3 is vastly different to FGW's 6.5/1.5.

As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made.  This goes against National Conditions of Carriage and their own Passengers Charter.  Disgraceful on so many levels.

...........so people buying the most (very) expensive First class tickets for/with the benefit of unlimited flexibility may have to stand with no refund? 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 29, 2015, 15:46:57
Even 6/3 is vastly different to FGW's 6.5/1.5.

Yes, though it's actually nearer 2 with space for the crumple zone, disabled toilet and kitchen taken into account.   99 first class seats, which is more, but not a huge amount more, that the current FGW layout, and pretty much identical to what's expected from the IEP 9-cars.

Quote from: NickB
As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made.  This goes against National Conditions of Carriage and their own Passengers Charter.  Disgraceful on so many levels.

I quite agree.  That is indeed disgraceful.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on April 29, 2015, 16:56:17
Even 6/3 is vastly different to FGW's 6.5/1.5.

As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made.  This goes against National Conditions of Carriage and their own Passengers Charter.  Disgraceful on so many levels.

...........so people buying the most (very) expensive First class tickets for/with the benefit of unlimited flexibility may have to stand with no refund? 

That is indeed what I have been instructed by Customer 'Service' on recept of my past two claims. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on April 30, 2015, 14:04:01
As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made. 

Eh ? So how would I go about making a reservation for every journey I make, 10 a week, every week of the year, barring bank holidays ?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on April 30, 2015, 14:06:23
Call customer services....if everyone with a 1st class ticket did this, they'd need to up-staff...the cost m,ight just make them think again on this....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2015, 22:09:52
On a more positive note about FGW's 1st Class service.

I visited the Paddington 1st Class Lounge yesterday (Weds 29/04/2015) and was delighted to discover that it was 'Cocktail Wednesday'.  ;D

Every Wednesday from 4pm to 8pm the ladies from Tipplesworth (http://www.tipplesworth.com/) are on hand to serve complimentary cocktails to FGW's 1st Class customers.

I tried both. Very nice they were too. The cocktails I mean.  ;)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSC_0013_zpszxo9nx5x.jpg)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSC_0012_zps7bt1bb7x.jpg)

Attached also is a larger image of the cocktail menu.

Oh, and once aboard my chosen HST I discovered that complimentary wine is offered on a Wednesday evening!
(http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/drink/t0312.gif)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 30, 2015, 22:21:28
... complimentary cocktails ... I tried both. Very nice they were too ...

Attached also is a larger image of the cocktail menu.

... from which I note that you would obviously have tried the Light and Stormy - but which was the other one?  :P ::) ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on July 24, 2015, 08:42:19
Even 6/3 is vastly different to FGW's 6.5/1.5.

Yes, though it's actually nearer 2 with space for the crumple zone, disabled toilet and kitchen taken into account.   99 first class seats, which is more, but not a huge amount more, that the current FGW layout, and pretty much identical to what's expected from the IEP 9-cars.

Quote from: NickB
As I reported in the Rights and Redress section FGW are now refusing refunds for having to stand in First unless a reservation was made.  This goes against National Conditions of Carriage and their own Passengers Charter.  Disgraceful on so many levels.

I quite agree.  That is indeed disgraceful.

First class provision on the new trains has now been downgraded to 71 seats on the full length trains and to 36 seats on the half length ones that form most of the fleet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2015, 08:47:13
And they still find room for a kitchen and shop!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on July 24, 2015, 08:50:38
First class provision on the new trains has now been downgraded to 71 seats on the full length trains and to 36 seats on the half length ones that form most of the fleet.
Sigh, I had hoped that with the introduction of IEP that we would see 1st back up to 100 seats on full length sets. Be interesting to see if East Coast reduce down to 71 as well. That would be quite a reduction from around 130 currently offered on class 91 electrics. East Coast HSTS are around 110 seats.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on July 24, 2015, 08:56:18
Firstly... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Now then...
Will you be able to make reservations for these trains?  I'm guessing not if they are driver only, so there will be no one to referee the fights.  This is imprtant because FGW seem determined to replace actual capacity in 1st with seat reservations for the few that can phone up fast enough.  If you can't reserve then that becomes a problem.

That said, if all of the trains are effectively turbos with a shop then passengers in the Thames Valley (which I acknowledge is the crunch area) won't be fighting to get on the lone HST as all the trains will be equally crap, ahem, specified.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on July 24, 2015, 09:00:03
Where does it say anything about Driver-only?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2015, 09:31:57
I wouldn't be at all surprised if hardly any, perhaps no, IEPs stop at Maidenhead, and the commuters from there get 8-car 387/365 EMUs for the majority of their services until Crossrail arrives in town.  Same goes for Slough/Twyford.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on July 24, 2015, 09:42:58
Interesting.  The implication from previous 'Meet the Manager' sessions has been that Maidenhead will get IEP, but I realise that isn't a very trustworthy source.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2015, 09:53:00
Just an opinion.  Maybe the odd Oxford to London 10-car Bi-Mode would stop, though I guess that's not too different from now in terms of number of HST stops.  The timetable won't have much slack in it at commuter stations to allow for the extended dwell times that are needed for the door layout of the IEPs.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on July 24, 2015, 10:00:51
If you remember discussing the new route map for IEP, the IEPs were not stopping after Reading, but the fast Oxford 387s were....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: broadgage on July 24, 2015, 11:28:53
Where does it say anything about Driver-only?

I am not aware of any proposal to regularly run the new trains as driver only in passenger service.
However if the employers win the dispute with the RMT, then they have undertaken to ROSTER a train manager for each service, but would run it DOO for a part of the journey if the train manager was not available.

As regards refereeing fights over the much reduced first class seating, in the case of two half trains coupled together, then sods law dictates that the train manger will be in the other unit.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: plymothian on July 24, 2015, 11:50:40
Isn't this what YOU have all wanted?  FGW complaints and surveys show that:

- you want more standard capacity, so first class capacity has been taken away
- you want to be served in your seat, so buffets have been taken away
- you want the train to run during disruption, so the requirement for a guard has been taken away
- you want first class exclusivity upheld, so the train manager has been told his priority is the first class coaches at the expense of standard


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2015, 12:16:24
That's part of the problem.  Everybody doesn't want the same thing.  Except for less delays during disruption, presumably!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: plymothian on July 24, 2015, 13:07:37
What's that saying?
"You can't please all of the people..."

But the most vocal get what the most vocal want.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on August 10, 2015, 22:43:59
Just a word of warning regarding First Class availability on services in and around the Bristol / Bath Spa / Westbury area. With regards to the improvement works at Bath Spa and the mass changes to the timetable; It appears there has become an assumption that Class 15x Trains have miraculously grown First Class seating...

For some reason several trains are showing as having First Class Accommodation and also appear in the Online Journey Planners as having such accommodation too. Yet when the train turns up you actually get a unit of Class 15x type. Which of course does not have First Class seating.

The way would check is to put the time of the train into realtimetrains.co.uk and then select more detail as shown here:

(http://i.imgur.com/FQ2Dut4.png)

This will bring up the below information. You are looking for the "Pathed as:" information. As shown below, this train is advertised as having First and Standard Class seating. But the "Pathed as:" information shows as running as a Class 150/153/155/156 Unit - which of course will not have the First Class seating.

(http://i.imgur.com/0bqAKck.png)

If you find yourself on one of these phantom First Class seating trains; I would advise contacting FGW and raising a compensation request under condition 38 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage:

Quote
38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket
If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

As said earlier in the post, these trains ARE in the National Rail Timetable as having First Class seating.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/46427.aspx


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 11, 2015, 10:14:38
Sorry to question your logic a bit.  'Pathed As' means the 'point to point' timings allocated to the service not the particular type of train unit allocated to the service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 11, 2015, 12:52:06
Sorry to question your logic a bit.  'Pathed As' means the 'point to point' timings allocated to the service not the particular type of train unit allocated to the service.

This is correct, its purely for timing reasons rather than what stock is to be used, for example all the London Birmingham Chiltern services are pathed as 158s, yet they use 168s and Class 68/Mk3s


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on August 14, 2015, 18:26:43
Thank you both.

I had always misunderstood that for 2 reasons.

1) The "Pathed As" always showed which trains on the GreaterAnglia Norwich services were EMUs vs. Class 90+Mk3

2) The Weymouth Wizard train shows as being "Pathed as" a HST Service instead of the timings of Class 150 etc. The timings I believe are almost identical to when this is run by a unit.

Hope that clears up the logic I was using. Thanks for the correction however :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 24, 2015, 11:45:51
Moving the conversation over to the Thames Valley local services ^ for those that haven^t been following the Rebrands thread the new 6th September timetable is being quietly rolled out that shows the almost complete removal of first class on all but the morning and evening semi-fasts:

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/train-times-and-tickets/train-times/from-17-may-2015

I find the level of stealth here astonishing.  When HST reductions were rolled-out they were hailed as an increase in standard accommodation with the finger pointed towards the DfT.  This step change in service commitment is almost secret ^ certainly most silent.  I look forward to a press release from FGW regarding their commitment and compensation for first class season ticket holders ^ and the level of price reduction of a first class ticket since part of a TV to London commute is likely to be in standard only trains.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 24, 2015, 11:54:57
I doubt there will be any - posters at stations affected possibly.

Those with 1st class seasons are being contacted individually & offered various options, all of which seem fair to me.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on August 24, 2015, 19:33:08
Those with 1st class seasons are being contacted individually & offered various options, all of which seem fair to me.

Could you elaborate on that please?

I'm at a loss as to why some of these trains between 09:00 - 20:00 for arguments sake don't have First Class seating, yet trains at 00:00 - 05:00 are advertised as having First Class.

Playing devils advocate, I strongly doubt that will be at all policed in any way. Looking at the amount of Gatecrashers in First Class on late night services in Essex... It just doesn't make sense.

Throw into that the various staff on FGW and SWT services who openly say "don't buy First Class tickets for trains X, Y and Z late at night as it's not checked. Just offer to pay if it's checked."

Considering the amount of posters saying "Buy before you board" I find such advise dangerous and distasteful... You can't win :(


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 24, 2015, 20:05:29
To save me typing out the whole piece, can you elaborate on which services you are referring to, bearing in mind I'm referring to 1st class *season* holders


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: thetrout on August 24, 2015, 22:24:30
Sure, You mentioned that all 1st Class season ticket holders affected are to be contacted and various options given. Concluding with "all of which seem fair"

Forgive me if I've taken that too literally; but that suggests you know what these various options are... Can you elaborate as to what they are?

Thanks :)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 24, 2015, 22:45:01
Sure, but it'll be tomorrow.

You might get your letter if you're a 1st class season holder too


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on August 25, 2015, 11:54:20
If it's any kind of data point, I was given a cheque by way of compenasation when first class was withdrawn from the Reading to Basingstoke line.
From speaking with other first class season ticket holders whose tickets included some or all of that line it appeared to be related to how long the season ticket had left to run.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 25, 2015, 13:22:24
Officially, I know nothing about this withdrawal. Only from gossip on here and now checking the forward timetables.

No letter for me yet - no information at the station. I've just checked and I can buy right now a 1st class annual season ticket on-line for travel between TV local station and London Terminals with no indication the that 364 day service I have contracted for is to be withdrawn in less that a fortnight. If this was the natural resources industry (my profession), Council would be receiving instructions.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 25, 2015, 15:06:40
Sure, but it'll be tomorrow.

Sorry, been too busy to dig this out today - I'll try again tomorrow


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 28, 2015, 00:46:51
... Council would be receiving instructions.

Counsel, possibly, Oxonhutch ;) - but I do share your ... err, astonishment that such annual tickets are still apparently being sold online! :o


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 28, 2015, 08:20:01
Thanks for the correction Chris.  Spelling was always my weak point and Bill Gates' spell checker doesn't help - always.  Many years ago, a memo from me to the boss motivated an expenditure of several million dollars to test six brothels*.  I'll spare you the boss's reply save that he had a sense of humour. (*boreholes - I'm a geologist).

Still no letter and I am only four more railway days away from where my double+ priced ticket gets me less.  Thank goodness I don't know about it yet, or I'd be seriously p*****d off!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 28, 2015, 08:43:19
Sure, but it'll be tomorrow.

Sorry, been too busy to dig this out today - I'll try again tomorrow

Here you go....

Quote
Holders of First Class season tickets on routes that will see either a reduction in, or removal of First Class seating are being contacted by post to inform them of the changes and the options available to them.
Customers requesting First Class tickets on routes that will be affected (either in full, or in part) must be made aware of these changes. They must be given all of the information needed for them to make an informed decision.

Customers that hold First Class seasons will have three options, depending on how their journey will be affected:

Season Ticket Changeover
Customers can submit their First Class season for a change to Standard Class for the remaining validity. The new ticket will have the same expiry date as their current one and they will receive a refund of the difference between the two.
It is important to note that this would not be the same amount as if they requested a refund.
When calculating the refund due and the cost of the new ticket, we will work out how much (using a daily rate) the remaining days and months or First Class travel is worth. We will then calculate the cost of the remaining days and months in Standard Class and they will receive a refund of the difference between the two amounts.
There is no administration fee applicable to this change.

Season Ticket Refund
There may be customers that no longer wish to have a season ticket. In cases such as these they can submit their ticket for a refund.
This calculation is different to that for a changeover.
To work out the amount they will receive as a refund, we will calculate the cost of a season ticket for their journey based on the months and days they have been travelling. We will then take this from the price they originally paid and refund the remainder to them.
This type of refund will normally have an administration fee of ^10.00 applied. Any refund requests made as a result of these changes will have this fee waived.

Retain their current season ticket
Some customers may not be as affected as others and decide that they will continue to hold a First Class season ticket. Should these customers be unable to get a First Class seat on their chosen train service, they can claim a refund under the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

For us to consider their refund request, the train they travelled on must be shown in the timetable as having First Class seating available. This will be shown with a ^, in a dark-coloured square.

Customers purchasing tickets
When a customer enquires about or requests a First Class ticket, you must check the available train services for their journey and make them fully aware of the likelihood of there being no First Class seating available.
Many journeys are having their First Class fares removed from 7th September to reduce the risk of customers buying tickets when there will be no First Class seating.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on August 28, 2015, 08:53:20
Due to some Bank Holiday lethargy I missed my regular train this morning.  Regular viewers will know that this is the 07.08 maidenhead to paddington HST from worcester which, since the slashing of First Class accommodation, is standing room only whilst Standard has seating aplenty.
Today I caught the next train, the 07.16 turbo.  I was surprised to find that I was the only person in First Class on this train.  The whole thing to myself.  Whilst I recognise that it is a Friday the rest of the train looked pretty busy.

The point I am trying to make is that First Class on turbo's of any kind don't really appeal to First Class passengers - they would apparently rather cram themselves on to an HST than take the turbo 8mins later.  And why would they?  What is First Class on a turbo?  No buffet, no trolley, no paper, no table to work, no ticket inspection.  Even the legroom is <the airline style on an HST standard class when someone sits opposite you.  How can this be classified as 'premium' travel?

And so on Tuesday I'll be back on the HST and moaning about how overcrowded it is.  But at least I'm getting some grace and favour for my money.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 28, 2015, 10:24:41
Yes, it's a pretty worthless upgrade on Turbo's - hence finally doing away with most of it. Regarding legroom, the 166 refurbishment programme does include much more legroom for four of the sixteen seats, so at least that's a slight improvement!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 28, 2015, 11:42:21
Due to some Bank Holiday lethargy I missed my regular train this morning.  Regular viewers will know that this is the 07.08 maidenhead to paddington HST from worcester which, since the slashing of First Class accommodation, is standing room only whilst Standard has seating aplenty.
Today I caught the next train, the 07.16 turbo.  I was surprised to find that I was the only person in First Class on this train.  The whole thing to myself.  Whilst I recognise that it is a Friday the rest of the train looked pretty busy.

From next Tuesday, that service is allocated to a 166 and still has its first class according to RTT, although the train is missing completely from the online timetable.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 28, 2015, 15:28:46
The 07:17 from Maidenhead is an HST from 7th September


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 28, 2015, 15:34:03
The 07:17 from Maidenhead is an HST from 7th September
Yes indeed.  See: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16148.0

These Maidenhead peeps don't realise how good they've got it...  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on August 28, 2015, 16:16:21
The 07.18 Maidenhead to Paddington is set 1P08 from Didcot ?!?!?
Oh hallelujah!  The return of the HST that disappeared in 2011.

This has made my year - another peak time HST AND an extra 10mins in bed. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 28, 2015, 16:28:36
Yes, that should hopefully spread out the first class season holders like yourself, so that there's not a shortage of seats over the two trains - one of the few examples where the reduction in first class on the HST fleet was causing genuine problems.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on August 28, 2015, 16:38:01
That's really going to dent my income stream from refund vouchers. 


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on September 03, 2015, 16:13:24
Finally, FGW have posted the following on their website regards removal of First class from some Turbo operated services:

https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/fleetchanges

Quote
Changes to your service ^ for First Class Season Ticket holders
From 07 September 2015, we^re increasing the number of Standard Class seats on our fleet of suburban ^Turbo^ trains in the Thames Valley. To do this, First Class will be removed and seating will become Standard Class only on most services.

Services affected
First Class will still be available on all services operated by High Speed Trains and Class 180 trains. In addition, First Class will be available on the following services operated by our Turbo trains:

London Paddington to Oxford Class 1 fast services
North Downs Line services that serve Gatwick Airport
London Paddington to Bedwyn via Newbury
Selected commuter and semi-fast services
North Downs Line services to Gatwick Airport and Paddington to Bedwyn services will also benefit from the introduction of a catering trolley on board.
Check your route
For more details speak to a Sales Advisor at one of our stations, or call Customer Relations on 03457 000 125.

Your options
Changeover tickets
If you^re affected you can apply for a season ticket changeover and swap your ticket from First to Standard Class.

We^ll calculate the value of the months and days you have left and use this to pay for a new Standard Class season ticket that expires on the same day as your original one. You^ll receive a full refund for the difference in cost.

Refunds
If you decide you don^t want a season ticket any more, we^ll calculate the cost of the months and days you^ve used, and refund the balance in full.

Apply
To apply for a season ticket changeover or a refund, speak to a Sales Advisor at one of our ticket offices.

Find out more
For more details speak to a Sales Advisor at one of our stations, or call Customer Relations on 03457 000 125.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 03, 2015, 19:08:22
I^m not sure that the average Pangbourne commuter would know what a Class 1 service is, but even if they did would they be right to assume that the morning up Turbo services which are headcoded as Class 1 would have First Class?  Trains involved are 0636 (1P06), 0653 (1P08), 0834 (1P25).

They need to know this before deciding what to do about their First Class seasons.  Ditto commuters at other stations.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on September 03, 2015, 21:20:42
There should also be:- 0713 (1P16) and 0803 (1P22), plus in the opposite direction:-
1803 (1D53), 1837 (1D57), 1906 (1D61) and 2004 (1D69). 5 up, 4 down.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 04, 2015, 10:01:06
I think some of those are Class 180's. 

Without getting too esoteric, is it possible to get a Pangbourne - Padd season which is standard class Pangbourne - Rdg, and first class Rdg - Padd?  This would seem the sensible solution for Pangbourne first class season ticket holders as even if a Class 180 or 166 is diagrammed, as sure as night follows day a Class 165 will turn up occasionally.

Bit much that Thatcham is guaranteed First Class when Pangbourne isn't.  Pangbourne is of course posher than Thatcham.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on September 04, 2015, 10:22:58
From what I can see all rates from Cholsey through Tilehurst ^ Paddington seasons are the same price as Reading ^ Paddington so effectively our local turbo journey, in whatever class, is free.  I assume this is why I have not received any letter from FGW/GWR and there are no notifications up at affected the stations.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Fourbee on September 04, 2015, 10:31:53
Saw a 166 with propper First class at both ends yesterday in old dynamic lines livery and a 166 with "properly" declassified First class (no gold stripe, no antimaccassars, no "1" window decal).

Maybe it's all going to be sorted out at the weekend ready for the changes on Monday.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 04, 2015, 12:40:28
From what I can see all rates from Cholsey through Tilehurst ^ Paddington seasons are the same price as Reading ^ Paddington so effectively our local turbo journey, in whatever class, is free.  I assume this is why I have not received any letter from FGW/GWR and there are no notifications up at affected the stations.

Fair point, but the fact is that if your season ticket states Pangbourne - Paddington First Class that is what you are entitled to expect.  I'm not sure that FGW could defend a claim on the basis of how the season ticket is priced.   


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 04, 2015, 13:12:13
Quote
Pangbourne is of course posher than Thatcham

As a resident of the latter, and knowing the former, you are probably right Gordon, but I still like my home town, and it's environs even more.

I am sure you will therefore be even more disappointed to hear that apparently our semi-fast Bedwyn/Paddington services (which all stop here) are due to get a trolley service!

I wonder if that will continue when the Turbo's are banished once the wires go up?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 05, 2015, 16:19:34

I am sure you will therefore be even more disappointed to hear that apparently our semi-fast Bedwyn/Paddington services (which all stop here) are due to get a trolley service!


Yes, I^d seen that, and I don^t begrudge you your trolley at all.  Really I don^t.  Not one little bit^...


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on September 09, 2015, 08:30:41
So the letter has finally arrived to those of us northwest of Reading ^ thank-you Mark.  Dated 7th September, it is one day after the start of the new timetable: were we perhaps an oversight?

I must say, its contents create more confusion than questions answered. The timetable, with Standard Class only trains came into force on Monday 6th, yet the letter states that first class is to be removed from Sunday 20th September.  As I see it, from now until the 20th, all 1st Class provided on 165s is now unenforceable even though the antimacassars are still in place, stickers still on the windows and closing compartment doors ^ when they can;  all a bit of a mishmash really.

Just as well I suppose for yesterday 2N52, the first evening down service with 1st Class accommodation, was served by a super-rammed 2-car unit 165 that got increasingly late towards Didcot ^ probably due to extended dwell times. ^ though looking back at RTT it lost time between stops all the way to Oxford, so presumably it was a sick substitute too.   I assume the allocated 166 (that ran on Monday) either failed or was borrowed for a more prestigious service.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 11, 2015, 13:13:39
The 07.18 Maidenhead to Paddington is set 1P08 from Didcot ?!?!?
Oh hallelujah!  The return of the HST that disappeared in 2011.

This has made my year - another peak time HST AND an extra 10mins in bed. 

It would appear that word of the enhanced 07.17 (as it is now) form Maidenhead to Paddington has not reached my fellow passengers...   ;D



Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 30, 2015, 07:32:17
Whilst I do love the fact that my 7.17 Maidenhead to Paddington service carries only myself and one other chap I am slightly disappointed with the fact that it contains no refreshments nor staff.
The buffet remains closed throughout, there is no trolley nor any means of buying a drink, no papers, and no train manager. It is like travelling on a train destined for the sidings.
Can anyone in the know shed any light upon the lack of facilities? Much obliged.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 30, 2015, 10:52:41
There is a certain irony in any train passenger complaining about 'serious undercrowding' ...  :P ::) ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 30, 2015, 15:54:48
Whilst I do love the fact that my 7.17 Maidenhead to Paddington service carries only myself and one other chap

Is it still that quiet?  Presumably the 07:08 is still packed solid in First Class?  I'm surprised more of Maidenhead's first class passengers haven't elected to wait nine minutes to guarantee a seat with comfort, even if they don't get a paper or poor quality free coffee, as I would have expected word-of-mouth to have reached them by now.  Perhaps a poster on display at the London end of the platform the 07:08 leaves from might help to get the message across - otherwise you can't blame GWR from pulling the HST off that train and putting it somewhere it will be used.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: a-driver on September 30, 2015, 16:16:15

Can anyone in the know shed any light upon the lack of facilities? Much obliged.

Comes off Old Oak in the morning into Paddington, then leaves Paddington with driver only at 0430 (presumably before any catering crews book on), sits in Kennet Bridge Loop outside Reading for about 40 minutes.  Then into Reading Station to pick up a Train Manager before continuing empty to Didcot.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on September 30, 2015, 16:44:50

I've mentioned to the despatch crew at Maidenhead that they would be wise to 'sell' the 7.17 to the 7.08 crowd, epsecially as many of the 7.08 crowd joined that service after the downgrade of the 7.17 in 2011 thereby causing the overcrowding but no luck so far. 

I've also mentioned it on board the 7.08 last week and no one really believed me as to how wmpty the 7.17 is.  I fear that until the 7.08 is cancelled/delayed for a day no one will cotton on.  The 7.17 doesn't help itself by being late every day (TM today explained it is due to the manual operation at short platforms at Cholsey etc) so is generally a 7.25'ish.

The 7.02 from Maidenhead would have been a better beneficiary of an HST in terms of passenger numbers but I'm not going to get in to that discussion.  The TM even announced today that there were 64 empty seats in A & B  so this isn't specifically a First Class issue.

Thanks for the route info a-driver.  That explains the lack of facilities.  Its a shame, but I'll take my (50) seats in deferrence to standing with a tea.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on September 30, 2015, 19:43:07
I've used it once or twice since the reversion to an HST.  Regarding lateness, it does seem rather sensitive to freight movements at Didcot and the short platform issue did cause some delay once when the driver forgot he had 7 on, rather than the usual 8 coaches and ended up at the wrong stop board with the TM's door off the platform.  Took a couple of minutes for the TM to work his way back two coaches (buffet door blocked) and ended up with a lot more people squeezing in through one rather than three.  'Tis pleasantly quiet though. I must have been the other bloke Nick.

In general, timekeeping in the early peak seems to have suffered with the latest timetable change on the 7th. 1P06 was often early and averaged only 1L over the year.  It is now well down with some seriously late arrivals, Monday it was 26L.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: lordgoata on September 30, 2015, 21:09:17
It seems to be the same every year, the time keeping improves gradually during the summer holidays, then as soon as they are over they are mysteriously delayed again.

The logical answer is more people using them after the holidays, which may well be true, but certainly Goring and Tilehurst numbers don't seemto vary that much (to an untrained eye), during the holidays.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 01, 2015, 08:45:25
I used the opportunity of today's delayed and standing 7.08 service to sell the 7.17.  I even show passengers the photo of the desolate First Class.

A buffet/coffee service is a deal breaker for some but I might have tempted a couple to try the luxury of First Class travel without a gladiatorial fight for a seat.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 01, 2015, 16:47:34
Good work, Nick.  Let us know if your campaign bears fruit!   :D  The 07:08 ex Maidenhead was delayed at Oxford waiting a driver to come off the delayed 05:13 Paddington to Moreton-In-Marsh.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on October 01, 2015, 20:39:17
A consequence of FGW/GWR removing First Class from their 165s (standard class only) is that if they roster them on a service advertised as having First Class accommodation, then First Class ticket holders can claim the difference in fares as per NRCoC, Section 38 when their expected 166 (First Class provided) is substituted.

This has now happened to me on two occasions: Tuesday last week and Tuesday this week.  I have emailed GWR on their feedback address fgwfeedback@firstgroup.com ([sic] Address given on the GWR site) to claim compensation and have received an acknowledgement and case numbers on both occasions with the promise of a response within 5 working days.  I have have received no further response on either to date. 

Can the group please suggest an avenue for me to take this further as I believe this is going nowhere; and if I have paid for an advertised service, I expect to receive it.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 02, 2015, 00:40:39
Hmm. This is another example of a very disappointing Great Western Railway 'customer experience', Oxonhutch. I'll repeat the wording I have used elsewhere (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16293.0), in another case:

We have many Great Western Railway staff here on the Coffee Shop forum as members, or just as casual readers, so I'm sure this latest example of the sheer frustration that can be felt by those trying to do business with GWR can be fed back.

And, by the way, I'll no doubt bump into a few senior GWR staff at the TravelWatch SouthWest meeting in Taunton this Saturday, so I'll mention it to them as well.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ollie on October 02, 2015, 05:57:30
Oxonhutch, when was it emailed in? I spoke to customer relations chasing a case for someone else, and they were up to 19th September for cases due to a bit of a backlog they unfortunately have at the moment.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: NickB on October 02, 2015, 08:28:55
I've found that writing in yields better results than emailing. I wouldn't say the response was fast but the results are more consistent. It's a free post address but does cost you an envelope.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on October 02, 2015, 09:35:04
Thanks Ollie. First claim was for the 22nd and the second for the 29th.  Maybe they're still working up to it.  I'll give it a couple more days before escalating it.

Notwithstanding, that is a serious backlog - either an overdose of problems recently, or an under-resourcing of customer services.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: plymothian on October 02, 2015, 09:47:57
Incidentally it's possible to buy a 1st advance single GWR only from Barnstaple - Bristol TM on 2 trains which don't have 1st class provision (it might not be now if the passengers actually complained like advised).

But as the fare was less than the standard fare, I'm not sure how the usual first-standard difference compensation would pan out!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 02, 2015, 10:02:24
I've rarely, if ever, experienced a response, beyond an automated one, within five days when contacting Customer Services by email.

The five day thing should be removed from correspondence as it's an 'aim' that is rarely met.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Fourbee on October 02, 2015, 10:50:56
A consequence of FGW/GWR removing First Class from their 165s (standard class only) is that if they roster them on a service advertised as having First Class accommodation, then First Class ticket holders can claim the difference in fares as per NRCoC, Section 38 when their expected 166 (First Class provided) is substituted.

On the flip side of that, I've had an email from GWR saying that travelling in First Class on a Standard Ticket on a train advertised with no First Class is up to the discretion of the TM.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on October 02, 2015, 11:10:27
If the 1st class fare has been removed, that effectively declassifys for that journey....


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: JayMac on October 02, 2015, 12:13:14
A consequence of FGW/GWR removing First Class from their 165s (standard class only) is that if they roster them on a service advertised as having First Class accommodation, then First Class ticket holders can claim the difference in fares as per NRCoC, Section 38 when their expected 166 (First Class provided) is substituted.

On the flip side of that, I've had an email from GWR saying that travelling in First Class on a Standard Ticket on a train advertised with no First Class is up to the discretion of the TM.

 ::)

Sometimes they either fail to understand the question or just haven't got a clue.

It's not about discretion, it is absolutely allowed to travel in Standard Class with a First Class ticket valid on that train. You may have a slight issue with certain RPOs if you have a First Class Advance and have chosen, for whatever reason, not to sit in your reserved seat on your booked train.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Ollie on October 02, 2015, 12:29:02
Thanks Ollie. First claim was for the 22nd and the second for the 29th.  Maybe they're still working up to it.  I'll give it a couple more days before escalating it.

Notwithstanding, that is a serious backlog - either an overdose of problems recently, or an under-resourcing of customer services.

No problem, feel free to message us the references if you want me to chase it and see how the claims are progressing.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Oxonhutch on October 02, 2015, 13:47:17
Thanks again Ollie - I will do so if I haven't received any feedback in the next couple of days.

That said, I could have also claimed for yesterday when they substituted a completely rammed 2-car 165 for the scheduled service that departed late and got later still as the journey progressed.  I took one look at that one and decided to take another train. I reckon they nicked the Greenford shuttle.

My feeling is that the advertised First Class services are not being that diligently provided for - relying on the financial outlay from claims being less than the commercial factors in stock rosters.  Maybe there is a genuine plan and I'm just being too cynical - but it's my age - sorry.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Fourbee on October 03, 2015, 10:45:33
A consequence of FGW/GWR removing First Class from their 165s (standard class only) is that if they roster them on a service advertised as having First Class accommodation, then First Class ticket holders can claim the difference in fares as per NRCoC, Section 38 when their expected 166 (First Class provided) is substituted.

On the flip side of that, I've had an email from GWR saying that travelling in First Class on a Standard Ticket on a train advertised with no First Class is up to the discretion of the TM.

 ::)

Sometimes they either fail to understand the question or just haven't got a clue.

Their reply contained absolutely no reference to my original question, it just looked like a boiler plate response. Which I waited over a week for.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Jason on October 12, 2015, 12:18:35
I've come close on a few occasions but on Friday had my first instance of being unable to get a seat in 1st on a HST service out of Paddington.
The train manager was very helpful as were customer services at Reading.
We shall see how well the claims process goes.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: LiskeardRich on June 23, 2016, 07:38:22
The HST i am on now 0736 from liskeard to Penzance, 2.5 1st class coaches, a proper buffet and only 5 standard coaches. It's like the olden days coming back!
I assume this set forms a London service off Penzance around 10-11ish, so plenty of 1st class space on that up service!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on June 23, 2016, 10:12:54
It forms the 10:00 Penzance to London Paddington with a Pullman Restaurant from Plymouth.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 23, 2016, 10:46:08
Around 300 Standard Class seats reserved on it heading into London, so I hope there's not many people travelling without reservations or they will struggle to find a seat.  Just 20 reservations in 1st Class.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2016, 10:48:08
Heading for Glastonbury?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: LiskeardRich on June 23, 2016, 13:51:53
Around 300 Standard Class seats reserved on it heading into London, so I hope there's not many people travelling without reservations or they will struggle to find a seat.  Just 20 reservations in 1st Class.

That could be Cosy then!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on June 23, 2016, 14:10:47
Around 300 Standard Class seats reserved on it heading into London, so I hope there's not many people travelling without reservations or they will struggle to find a seat.  Just 20 reservations in 1st Class.

Surely they'll have to declassify one of the first class coaches if they're able to do so?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 23, 2016, 15:12:39
Yes, that could be an option.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on June 24, 2016, 13:02:53
Back to 1.5 first class coaches on the 10:00 today. As is fairly typical on a Friday the service is full and standing in standard (but at least we don't call Castle Cary).  ;D

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/cc2406.jpg)

Is there a speed restriction through Castle Cary due to the festival? We seemed to slow quite appreciably despite being on greens.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: LiskeardRich on June 24, 2016, 15:19:52
Back to 1.5 first class coaches on the 10:00 today. As is fairly typical on a Friday the service is full and standing in standard (but at least we don't call Castle Cary).  ;D

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/cc2406.jpg)

Is there a speed restriction through Castle Cary due to the festival? We seemed to slow quite appreciably despite being on greens.

I'm taking later starts this week and next, so it's my down service for 2 weeks, this morning it was so quiet coming down never seen it so empty.
Mother is on that service today. Off to London for some teaching award ceremony she is nominated for.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on June 24, 2016, 16:42:23
Mother is on that service today. Off to London for some teaching award ceremony she is nominated for.

I'd have bought her lunch if I'd known!   ;D


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 24, 2016, 20:45:30
Back to 1.5 first class coaches on the 10:00 today. As is fairly typical on a Friday the service is full and standing in standard (but at least we don't call Castle Cary).  ;D

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/cc2406.jpg)

Is there a speed restriction through Castle Cary due to the festival? We seemed to slow quite appreciably despite being on greens.

A 50mph speed restriction in both directions is always imposed during the Glastonbury season.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 24, 2016, 21:04:30
I very much doubt a restriction on speed during Glastonbury will be observed.......or a restriction on any other narcotic for that matter!  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Henry on August 10, 2016, 11:36:52

 From September I notice the weekend first rate increases to £25 from Devon to Paddington.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 10, 2016, 11:50:00
I wonder if they're introducing another zone, or just upping the all-four zone rate?

If the latter, it makes London/Taunton £25 too, which is a tad steep.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: chrisr_75 on August 10, 2016, 12:08:44
Could it be the reduction in capacity is resulting in too much pressure on first class seats at weekends and they're trying to reduce the number of weekend first people by upping the price a little?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 10, 2016, 12:10:54
Possibly, rather than informing pax that its always full, I guess.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 10, 2016, 18:07:42
Could it be the reduction in capacity is resulting in too much pressure on first class seats at weekends and they're trying to reduce the number of weekend first people by upping the price a little?

If this is the reason then it is a sound one - more than once travelling back from Plymouth on a Sunday I have seen people with flexible first class tickets, or on trains where reservation cards have not been put out, been unable to use 1st class accommodation because it is full with those who have paid £20 from (for example) Plymouth to use Weekend First...........and some travelling on staff passes of course!  ;)


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on August 10, 2016, 18:17:05
From September I notice the weekend first rate increases to £25 from Devon to Paddington.
Where did you find out about this Henry?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Timmer on August 10, 2016, 18:23:03
I wonder if they're introducing another zone, or just upping the all-four zone rate?

If the latter, it makes London/Taunton £25 too, which is a tad steep.
For a short time there was a £25 zone when the then FGW started charging different rates. I guess that this fifth zone will be re-introduced.

There was talk about improving the complementaries offered at weekends to match what was offered during the week but this seems to have gone quiet.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: Henry on August 12, 2016, 12:03:23

 I was able to extract this information from a usually reliable source at one of the stations I
 regularly use.
 
 At no time did I contravene the Geneva Convention to obtain this information .!!!!!


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: plymothian on August 12, 2016, 15:24:06
It's in the latest Retail Circular; along with the Ride Cornwall fare increase (£13).


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: bobm on August 13, 2016, 00:04:35
Is there an increase in the price of other rovers - eg Freedom of the South West - does anyone know?


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: LiskeardRich on August 19, 2016, 23:15:53
Ride Cornwall needed an increase. Its been £10 for as long as I remember, and since January is cheaper than many off peak day returns in Cornwall.
Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth to Liskeard/ Plymouth and intermediates and Looe/Gunnislake
Redruth to Liskeard off peak day return £10.10
Truro to Plymouth off peak day return £10.10

£13 is still excellent value but this is probably for another topic.


Title: Re: FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction
Post by: ChrisB on August 29, 2016, 16:45:36
It's in the latest Retail Circular; along with the Ride Cornwall fare increase (£13).

Extra zone or increases in current zones?



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