Great Western Coffee Shop

Apologies if this isn't the right place to put it - but as it's based in Southampton and has a (very brief) mention of FGW, it seemed appropriate.

I thought people might be interested in this somewhat(!) critical view of our railways:
www.shrug.info (http://www.shrug.info)

It certainly makes some of the criticism of FGW here seem rather tame. While they have some valid points, they seem to deliberately find fault with anything SWT do - not a great way to promote dialogue. I'd be interested to know what people make of it.

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Advance fares, split ticket journeys, rovers, railcards for starters

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I dont think it is possible to buy a network card online or over the phone, but I could be wrong.

Having said that, the way some people go on you would think that having a ticket office was the be all and end all of everything. If people need guidance on ticket types they can also look online first, post a question in a forum etc, and often get guidance that is just as good as that provided by a ticket office.

I would have said that the worst side effect of a ticket office being unexpectedly closed is when the people who normally buy their tickets at the windows end up causing a terrible queue at the machines as they gingerly press at the touchscreen, as if they are trying to defuse a bomb. Are these the same people that cause queues in banks?

I quite agree. A few rail user groups need to realise that venting all their anger by spewing out nothing but page after page of negativity to promote their cause (and massage the chips on their collective shoulders) can actually do more harm than good. Management quickly form the opinion that whatever they do will be criticised by them and will start to ignore them. Contrast that with Graham and Lee's patient and mature campaigning methods on here. FGW management do look at this forum (including Mark H as well I expect) and the fact it has a balanced range of comments means that they are much more likely to act on some of the problems that we raise.

I agree with both the Grecian and Industry Insider that it seems extremely hostile to SWT.

However, looking at the perfomance table listing late and cancelled/missed stops trains for May/June it does look pretty horrendous and is probably worth making a fuss about.

Maybe just publishing that each month without comment would be more effective than all the other invective. I'm not sure FGW, even it's bad old pre Hopwood days. had quite as many late cancelled missed stops trains each day.

Looks like a very amateurish home-made version of the Daily Mail ! without the colour photos.

the sidmouth herald?  :D

It^s great that you are giving publicity to the South Hampshire Rail Users^ Group, though I hope more contributors to your website will make the effort to read beyond the lead item in No. 122, as we try to cover the full range of issues which matter to SWT passengers. No. 123 has just gone on-line.

If SWT were anything like FGW, our website would be very different. FGW hold a great stakeholder conference every year, at which we are represented. They listen to passengers and have taken steps to accommodate their aspirations, particularly on timetables. SWT consistently fob off their passengers ^ you need only look at the transcripts of the bi-annual^ webchat^ events on the SWT website to confirm this. Rail Future, the Kingston Area Travellers Association and the Alton Line Users Association have all had problems with SWT.

On 18 July last year, local MPs including a minister, conducted a protest at Southampton Central about ticket office opening hours. Rather than listening, SWT set up a distraction (more precisely, they put up a poster early that morning in the station foyer saying London Travel Card operators would be running a survey at the station that day and they would give ^2 for charity for every questionnaire completed).

The warning on our website about SWT^s aggressive penalty fares scheme was posted at the request of the official watchdog Passenger Focus. SWT^s leaflet makes clear that penalty fares will be issued in cases of people who inadvertently get the wrong kind of ticket. Yet SWT stated in response to a webchat question that it would need a book to explain their ticket machines fully. That is one of many reasons that we are in favour of ticket offices, though  Passenger Focus and the Campaign for Better Transport have put forward many other reasons.  I would strongly advise people not to board a SWT train and ask for a Rover!

PF also confirmed that SWT published a figure of 61% of respondents to their on-line poll as satisfied that they had won another franchise term, without awaiting the result of the poll, which was showing 34% about the time it closed.

The new 2007 timetable between Southampton and Weymouth is very unpopular (see correspondence in past issues of RAIL). DfT officials were surprised by the huge service downgrade at Totton (a town of 30,000 with another 25,000 for whom Totton station is the natural railhead) and said it was due to adjustments to their specification by SWT and Network Rail.

The officials were so interested in our proposals that they agreed a meeting, saying something along those lines was likely to be discussed. The meeting was futile because SWT didn^t want to know and, by then, the franchise agreement had been signed off. SWT still blames DfT for the downgrade, but it^s ridiculous to suggest that the timetable specification was ever fixed in stone given the significant changes made on FGW.

You may be aware of the NO 450 Group formed in the Portsmouth area, after SWT put suburban stock on the 90-minute commuter run from Portsmouth to Waterloo. This attracted many hundreds of complaints. The trains arrived as part of a stock reshuffle to save hire costs. The class 442 Inter-City stock paid for by taxpayers for the long-distance Waterloo-Weymouth run was dumped by SWT and now serves short-haul runs between Brighton and Victoria, Go Ahead being prepared to meet the cost, unlike Stagecoach. Class 450 suburban trains often run through from Waterloo to Weymouth, a journey of over two and a half hours. 

Southampton is a major international transport hub and has 40,000 university students and a large Polish community, but SWT has closed its station enquiry office in succession to its bus station. 

Our view of the Stagecoach ethos reflects the picture set out in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Wolmar, which was written with the collaboration of Stagecoach bosses, including Brian Souter. Mr Souter should know the kind of company he is running.

We have had very many positive responses from MPs across the SWT area who are as concerned as we are about some of the things that happen on SWT. We have links with a County Council website and the Campaign for Better Transport website, and are widely recognised by the press and broadcasting media. A few years ago Carlton were going to film a documentary about us, but SWT denied the cameramen access to their trains.

I expect you know that Stagecoach founders Brian Souter and Ann Gloag not long ago received ^250m in bonuses over a 2-year period. SWT is always keen on investment but little of it is their money. Coincidentally, SWT also published a figure of ^250m as the sum they had spent on Southampton Central at the time they were bidding for the latest franchise, but after we raised the issue they said it was really ^250,000. I got an e^mail saying ^ and ^ are close together on keyboards.

I hope this makes our position clearer.

Welcome to the forum Denis.

I have to admit that The Grecian's opening post has certainly created quite an interesting debate, so thanks for your contribution.

Well Ive read through a few of the issues online and I have to say it does seem very negative and vitriolic. Yes its true that SWT have misled passengers, but there are plenty of completely disproportionate statements in the newsletter as well.

One thing that caught my eye was the silly claim that not being able to use the station as a right of way whilst the nearby footbridge is being refurbished has resulted in a 1 mile detour for a group of elderly people... It is actually barely half a mile and repeating those kinds of letters published in the Daily Echo doesnt really do any one any favours.

To be honest the formatting is a little odd. I wonder if the use of capital letters for words like DUFF STOCK and OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE in the daily reports are meant to actually indicate anger and shouting on the part of the editor.

Thanks to Denis for providing a detailed defence of his group. I do sympathise with some of his arguments, and admire the obvious time and research that goes into its website production. However, I still feel my original comment applies about giving a balanced output - vitriolic is exactly the right word 'fullspeedahead'!

My own experience of SWT is limited, but I have always got a seat in a comfortable (if functional) Desiro train, with working air-conditioning. The journeys I can remember have always been on time, and staff have always been polite. The last journey I made (the other week) from Brockenhurst to Christchurch was virtually empty and yet still had a trolley service on board - though I had already bought something from the excellent facility at Brockenhurst station. Watching a Lymington Pier train leave Brockenhurst whilst I was waiting for my train, the guard almost begged me to get on the train 'Go on, you know you want to!' he said smiling and not aware I was a railway employee.

All-in-all, excellent stuff. So, from this occasional travellers experience, SWT have provided me with a more than acceptable service - though I am not too naive to realise that more regular exposure might paint a different story?

In 'Hogrider 122' I was interested to read the section on 'Bias Beyond Belief' where Rail contributor and fares and service campaigner, Barry Doe, gets a real grilling for some of the pro-SWT statements he's made in recent issues. Is he a SWT lobbyist? Can anyone remember a negative SWT article he's written? Just a thought...

Our website brings together the many problems which SWT's passengers experience, tests them against Stagecoach's expressed ethos, and looks for  patterns. It seems odd to suggest that the voices of large numbers of individuals complaining about poor treatment are somehow vitriolic. Are all the letters of complaint we collect individually vitriolic, or only collectively?

On the point about Southampton footbridge, the question is whether it's right to make elderly people take an unnecessary detour, whether one mile or half a mile. It can be socially exclusive where the elderly people are frail or disabled, and disability takes huge numbers of forms. If an elderly person states that a distance is longer than it actually is, it may well mean that the detour has been difficult for them. In addition, helping people take a shortcut through the station would show SWT in a very good light. I expect contributors are aware of the outcry about Sheffield station bridge since Stagecoach took over East Midlands.

Some of the staff on SWT are great, and some of them detest the way they are made to treat their customers - for example, locking doors on a 'connection' before departure time as passengers off a delayed train rush along the platform to catch it. At Woking I once saw a member of staff shoulder-butted in this situation. That was appalling, but common decency suggests that it was wrong to close the doors in the customer's face, although it was not the fault of the man on the front line.

As one of your contributors says, the delays etc on SWT can be horrendous. The capital letters simply make the frequency of the common operator problems more visual. Nobody is going to read through pages of  reports and ring the major problem types with a pencil.

Barry Doe is probably Britain's greatest fares expert. But he is hopelessly biased. When Stagecoach was bidding for the last franchise he e'mailed me saying how good SWT was and admitted he had been discussing with SWT management how they could get us on side. I think the answer is that deeds speak louder than words. Anyone read the SWT franchise prospectus 'Building on Success'?

It's always easier to attack other people's efforts to stand up for their fellow passengers than to stick one's head above the parapet and whistle-blow on lousy standards. It may be because MPs, Passenger Focus, the Campaign for Better Transport, the County Council, Arriva, First Group, Go Ahead, GNER, Northern/Nedrail, Laing (and even their Swiss railway partners) and National Express realise this that their contacts with us have been very friendly.

 Enjoy your coffee, and all your trips to the PO, superstore etc when you find them closed during opening hours. Complacency doesn't breed good services. 

"Hmmn, no ticket for this journey sir, I'm afraid that'll be full whack sir!" Sounds like entrapment to me! :oP

Looks like a SWT hate webpage!

Ever heard of a balanced view?

It's certainly interesting the way this thread has developed. Personally I've always found SWT on the two routes I've used most (Axminster-Exeter and Dorchester-Southampton) to run a reliable, comfortable service. The December 2004 timetable change slowed a lot of trains down, but at least they're more likely to turn up on time. Having said that I've always tended to travel off-peak for leisure so I can cope with delays. It may be different in the peak.

The most shambolic I've ever known a train operator was FGW around the Bristol area in autumn 2007, especially on Sundays (mainly no staff so trains getting cancelled and the following ones getting Tube-like as a result). Fortunately things have got an awful lot better since then.

Your website appears to be very selective in the use of its "quotes" and seems much happier to "make a mountain out of a molehill" at every opportunity

Don't let the true facts get in the way of a good whinge. If people are "socially excluded" (must be a Guardian reader !), frail and disabled they probably couldn't use the footbridge anyway !

Your website is hardly a good example of lack of bias.

Sorry Denis, but neither does your vitriolic manner, which is actually starting to show itself in your responses to members of this forum who dare to question some of your reporting methods. Just questioning some of the content of your website hardly constitutes an "attack" - does it ? From that, I presume ANY response from SWT or its employees that doesn't fit with your views is also an "attack" on the "fellow passengers" !  

As The Grecian has just pointed out, if you wanted to see/experience a REALLY bad rail service you should have tried FGW's running of the Portsmouth/Cardiff route and it side shoots for the first 18 months or so of its franchise !!

I cannot get involved in a detailed argument at the present time as I am about to start a national rail tour to see what is going on around the country.

We are a well-recognised group that was established 16 years ago to campaign for better services and treatment of passengers in South Hampshire. We have had very positive relations with MPs, the rail industry (apart from Stagecoach), various other organisations, and members of the public, particularly regular SWT commuters. We have had correspondence published in the local press, RAIL, the Times etc, and memoranda published in both the Transport Committee^s reports on franchising. We have been on TV and contributed to a number of radio programmes.

The response to our efforts has been overwhelmingly positive, particularly our commitment and the fact that we undertake wide-scale research rather than relying on off-the-cuff personal comments. Despite our attempts to improve things for local rail users, it appears that some anonymous members of your group decided to attack us behind our back, without any indication that you intended to invite us to respond. A concerned third party told us what was happening. By way of contrast, people like Barry Doe and SWT are well aware of our website and can respond if they choose. We would certainly publish their comments, whilst reserving the right to add our response. A very hostile letter from Stewart Palmer is copied in our latest newsletter.

Honing in on a single word like ^vitriolic^ hardly takes the argument forward. We are passionate about good customer service.  Can anyone deny that the kind of customer service recorded at the start of our latest newsletter is appalling? I would take a lot of convincing that people are not hugely irritated when booking offices, POs, shops etc are closed during opening hours except in emergencies. Our survey at Totton booking office was very useful to another organisation that had just been invited by the transport minister to submit evidence of non-compliance. Obviously he is not complacent.

I expect most of you will have heard Tony Ambrose, who has been equally forthright about the problems on FGW, for example at the 2007 and 2008 RMT seminars in the House of Commons. We applauded his efforts on behalf of FGW passengers on our website. We did not denigrate him as vitriolic, but we did condemn Tom Harris for his scathing put-down of Tony last year.

I^m not clear what is wrong with the Guardian. It is an award-winning quality newspaper. Using the term ^Guardian reader^ in a pejorative sense is no substitute for sound argument based on research. I actually worked on disability and carer issues for 12 years. Many older people can do all sorts of things provided they can go at their own pace. It is perfectly possible for someone who can cross a footbridge at slow speed to find that their pace makes a half-mile walk very arduous.   

I do accept that the more time people spend on SWT the more dissatisfied they are. Obviously it is possible to have satisfactory individual journeys, but regular commuters gradually experience a considerable range of problems. Passenger Focus^ statistics show much lower ratings among peak travellers.

Of course things will go wrong sometimes, but it is the attendant ^arrogance^  (Christian Wolmar^s choice of word in his book Stagecoach) which particularly upsets people. Brian Souter is famous for his words ^ethics are not irrelevant but some are incompatible with what we have to do because capitalism is based on greed^. ^Greed^ has a rather personal sense here as he and his sister own nearly a third of Stagecoach shares.  I was struck by the stark contrast between his words and those of Moir Lockhead at this year^s Passenger Focus conference, which revealed a considerable empathy with passengers and their needs. You will know better than us how far FGW actually practise empathy, but they are prepared to work with their stakeholders, which SWT are not ^ SWT just offer what people have confirmed as pure propaganda. 

Just one example of Stagecoach ethics: Stagecoach was about to be awarded a 20-year second contract on SWT when Mr Souter^s unwise business deals reduced the shares to 10p, and performance on SWT became so bad that they nearly lost the franchise altogether.

The SRA then bailed them out with another ^29m of taxpayers^ money for some very questionable improvements. One of these was for an extra evening train from Poole to Waterloo. The only stock available was the Poole portion of the busy 17.15 Waterloo-Weymouth. There was a turnaround time at Poole of only a few minutes. If the 17.15 was late, all stops from Southampton to Bournemouth were axed and scores of commuters left to await the next service. I have had people stranded at Southampton ring me to have a chat as they just wanted to give vent to their anger.  It all makes the petty greed of a few MPs, their duck islands and moat cleaning look comparatively insignificant.

Incidentally, just how many big conferences do members of your group attend, how much research do they do, how much background reading, and how often do they respond to consultations? I don^t imply any criticism in posing this question, but it would be interesting to know.

Denis

Several contributors to the Coffee Shop are still convinced that the Fare Strikes that More Train Less Strain instigated had no effect on public and political opinion as to the failings of the FGW franchise. Despite the fact that a matter of weeks if not days later, FGW and DaFT apparently did a deal to reverse the worst of the franchise failings, after a huge amount of Fare Strike related VBP (Very Bad Publicity) for FGW and DaFT.

Now, it's not the time and place to reopen that particular debate, but what it shows is that there are several ways to campaign. The CoffeeShop does it one way, MTLS another, and your website a third way. Having glanced at your website, my own personal view is that it probably is a bit negative, and could have it's position a little more eloquently stated, but that isn't to invalidate what it is trying to achieve, which is to highlight some major deficiencies in SWT performance and service delivery. I'm sure in that general aim, you have the support of everyone who contributes to the Coffee Shop, and it has probably highlighted to many of us some shortcomings in the franchise that we were not aware of.

Enjoy your tour, and please post a link to your findings and conclusions when you return.           

Renewal of season tickets?

I've experienced both and I have to say - I prefer FGW to SWT

In general, FGW staff apply common sense to most situations.  SWT are by the book.

I recall a situation a couple of years back where I boarded at Egham going to Putney - I managed to get a parking space minutes before boarding and jumped on the train.  At Putney I walked straight to the excess fares  with the parking ticket showing when I shoved the money in the machine - didnt even run back to the car to stick it in the car - I still got penaltied.

I dont think (with the exception of maybe 1) I have come across a single FGW member of staff who would have penalty fared me for that - even the RIP.  I remember a couple of years ago leaving my season at home - got on at WOS ant the TM refused to charge me a ticket as they knew I had one - got on a train from Reading to slough (this was back when they had TM's on)  and an RIP was on - I was getting grief as to how I got into Reading station without a ticket (I was offering to pay for a ticket!) - TM also knew me an vouched for me.

I dont see that happening on SWT

Denis - I am afraid your response above does far more to illustrate your attitude to anyone who dares to not have the same views as yourself about anything - be it the rail service or choice of newspaper (I also have been known to have little digs at readers of the Daily Wail and the Torygraph). Who said the term "Guardian Reader" was "perjorative" ? Good job I didn't refer to it as The Grauniad (qv).       Still, if the cap fits...................

Your version of a "sound argument" based on "research" seems to be anecdotal "evidence" that a particular distance is a mile, then you state it might be half that, then finally you say that the distance might actually be whatever the person who walked it decides it might be - very sound !!
If your constant criticism of SWT is based on similar sound evidence then SWT are probably the best rail operator in the land. I use them sometimes, as do my wife and daughter: To us they seem not particularly better or worse than most of the other rail companies - and I have actually commented on this site how much I like their colour scheme ! And as a current thread makes clear their air-con seems to work far more often than FGW.

I am not surprised that you seem to be getting very little out of SWT - your attitude is guaranteed to put off anyone trying to hold anything resembling a sensible conversation with you.

Thank you and good night.

Gosh, we are tackling the important issues aren't we.

I'm posting a follow up here quickly in the hope that Denis gets a chance to read it before he sets off on his tour ... about which I would love to hear the good and the bad, if he cares to post (please do so  ;) ).

"The Coffeeshop" is a rather different group to most that you'll find around.  It doesn't take a specific view on particular matters (save ones where legal issues are involved) and members are free within the acceptable user policy to post what they wish - as much or as little; we're really not interested in measuring the number of conferences attended, for example.  As it says at the base of every single page This forum is provided by a customer of First Great Western, and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned.

Constructive criticism of other websites and publications, which is where this thread started, adds to the discussion and we can all learn from such things, so the moderator team will not stop in and supress such posts.  If someone feels that a website is biased and vitriolic, let him say so.   But the moderators will (and do) step in if things move on to personal attack.

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Having added that official statement, I'm going to respond to some of the elements, in a fresh post, in a personal capacity.

Thought I'd head over to SHRUG and see what all the fuss is about. Got a headache now! I had to give up in my search for a positive word said about SWT on their site. One wonders what SWT did to Denis Fryer all those years ago that meant he has kept up this negative attitude for so long. It can't be good for his health! It appears that you can only go back to issue 90 of 'Hogrider' (Dec 02) on the site. I'd love to see issue 1!

A personal answer now.

I have never felt personally comfortable posting purely negative thoughts, but rather adding praise where it is due, and including those awkward facts that don't support my case rather than being "economic with the truth".  For example, I have been to Bath today, and used the new bus station. I could talk about the lack of any clocks, the fact that all the refreshment machines were out of use, the lack of a departure board, the lack of any staff except for one cleaner.  And each of those things is true.  But I can also add that it is cleaner, lighter and airyer than the previous bus station, slightly closer to the railway station (and importantly with no road to cross), and that the cleaner - who I think worked for a subcontactor, was very helpful.

Personally, I admire what MTLS and Tony Ambrose have had a part in achieving, but I could not take an approach that's as sharp at theirs, or as Denis's ... and that may make me a weaker campaigner that these people and their groups.  So be it - this is not a "who is the best campaigner / most knowledgable person" contest, is it?

My approach is to learn, to be well informed.  And that means a lot of reading, a lot of listening, and a lot of thought. But I am a customer (or a wannabe customer - my last 4 journeys have all been by bus to / from my home town, as First haven't been running trains at suitable times) with another job to do, a wife, a cat, a dog, and other interests. It's not a job, and there's no way I want to be measured by how many rail conferences I attend.  I have attended a few, and it's notable to sit in the audience and see an array of bald heads ahead of me; nearly everyone there is a retired gentleman and so the groups is not a valid crosssection of the travelling public.  As a hobby, when I retire (!) I might spend more time at these events ... but not at present.

Both FGW and SWT are parts of a system ... and that system is a very complex one,  and one in which I have serious doubts as to whether the traveller (for whom, surely, passenger railway services exist) is actually the top priority.  It's more important to keep the shareholders happy than to carry more people.  And it's clearly (VERY clearly this week if you're National Express) to keep the Minister for Transport happy - if you upset a passenger, you'll probably get away with it without even a complaint.  If you upset the Minister ...

Now, within a less than ideal system it is much more sensible to understand the system, to look for open doors where your interests co-incide with the TOC's interests, and push on that open door.  Add in the local transport authority and the DfT to the melting pot, each with their own agendas, and it gets very interesting.

It is important to point out, to raise, and reraise the issues (readers of this post will be very clear that I think the TransWilts provision of 2 trains a day - 06:15 and 18:45 from Swindon - is a manipulated disgrace that is totally inadequate), but then to say that all the key organisations have people who realise this, who would love to help get it corrected, and who are very helpful.

This is turning into a long post, and away from the SHRUG topic.  Perhaps I should stop there, or if I get follow ups split the thread into "Campaigns" ...

P.S. Just because you don't see posts here about "I met with x" or "I attended y" or "I answered consultation z" doesn't mean that members haven't. You would be amazed, Denis ... I am fairly active, and there are others who make my efforts pale into insignificance.

Denis, I'm going to answer that from the purely personal perspective of being an active Save The Train (http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/) member.

Big conferences/meetings attended?

I've attended a few in my time, but it largely depends on their nature. The active members of STT tend to discuss upcoming events ahead of time, and if it is felt that my presence would be helpful/useful, then I attend.

How much research do I do/How much background reading?

I like to utilise as many forms of research as possible. This covers a wide range, from analysing documents/articles right through to going out and seeing things for myself. You will also find me frequently asking members of the CoffeeShop forum for their views, as I feel that its great strength is the sheer diversity of members different views and perspectives, which can provide a fascinating insight.

In addition to this, I ask people who are closely involved with the issue at hand, as was the case when I asked you a while back for your view on how the Southampton-Didcot transport corridor should be developed. I was very grateful for your input, as indeed was I grateful for the input of others, such as Andrew Haines's team and officers from several local authorities.

How often do I respond to consultations?

This is one of my main roles within STT. My way of operating tends to be to fully research/draw on my experience of the issues/questions raised, and then ensure that I respond from a TransWilts perspective.

I feel that liasing with other groups who are responding is important too - for example, STT worked closely with Campaign for Better Transport when formulating its recent responses to the DfT's "Delivering a Sustainable Transport System - Consultation on planning for 2014 and beyond" and Wiltshire Council's LTP3 Consultation Issues Paper.

On a more general note, John R's view that there are several ways to campaign particularly strikes a chord.

Industry Insider praised our way of campaigning - this is largely due to the wide spectrum of methods favoured by STT supporters, from those (like me) whose instincts are towards a more direct approach, through to those (like grahame) whose instincts are more cautious. Add to that people like Phil, Sion, Chris, Nick and others who bring different but equally vital attributes to the table, and the fact that we all have a lot of respect for eachother, then you have the ingredients for the balanced approach that we have arrived at.

It wouldnt work for everybody, though, and people may have what they feel to be perfectly valid reasons for disagreeing with the way STT does things. As grahame says, we can all learn from constructive criticism, even someone like me who has been known for robustly defending my views.

At the end of the day though, whether you are STT, MTLS or SHRUG, a campaigning group has to make its own judgement call on how to campaign, taking all the factors relevant to their particular situation into account.

Finally, I would like to say that I am indeed aware of the no450 campaign. They have been very supportive indeed of STT and its aims, for which I am very grateful.

I'm coming back to add a little more onto this thread; I've been thinking about it overnight, and suggestions that various of the people who run this site don't really pull their weight are hurtful.  OK - I can take it, but is "sure as eggs is eggs" discourages me from taking such people into my confidence; where I see such a negative flow, I am left thinking "if I say something / give a concession, it'll be just be thrown back in my face".   What do I mean by that?

Let's say, for example, that I give you a punnet of strawberries. Most people will say 'thank you' ... eat them, pass them on, and quietly discard the one fruit that had gone soft. But with some people, you would never here the end of that soft strawberry. Perhaps it would be elavated to "rotting" and "mouldy" in the telling of the tale.  And (when you think about it), you'll come to realise that the complaining recipient ate 19 of the 20 fruit and probably enjoyed them ...

Last weekend, I was sorting out my July diary and taking a sample week it already includes the following extra on top of my normal work (I am giving a 4 day training course, and probably serving hotel breakfasts on 2 or 3 mornings).

Tuesday
* Wiltshire Council (local area) Meeting
* Chamber of Commerce
Wednesday
* New Businesses Meeting
Thursday
* Preparatory meeting - presentation to key player group
Friday
* Presentation to key player group (holiday from work to do so)
Saturday
* Stand / show - local carnival
Sunday
* Open Gardens

That won't be the 'sum total' either; I already have a couple of other tentative appointments. And there is reading up, responding, looking after the technical aspects of this forum ... I regularly respond to consultations and help others who are doing so, I occasionally attend bigger conferences (I'm going to try to quantify that ... I'm going for 3 or 4 per annum on transport topics that require a journey of 40 miles or more).

Denis - as you made the challenge, perhaps you would be so good as to share a sample week of yours in a similar way?

I have to say that I am very grateful for the enormous time and effort that grahame puts into STT and the Coffeeshop, somehow managing to do so alongside his many other commitments. It would be fair to say that, without him, neither STT nor the Coffeeshop would exist, or certainly not in anything like the same form.

On a personal note, he has become an extremely good friend of mine during the time we have campaigned together, and I am very grateful for that as well.

This really is my last comment before I disappear for a fortnight.

I^m glad some of you find FGW kinder to its passengers, and more flexible than SWT. That is exactly our experience. I have recently on two occasions seen FGW staff take no action against passengers with Advance tickets who had caught the wrong train. Two passengers who did the same thing on SWT were charged ^170 on top of their ^9 fares.

SWT, through its general attitude, does engender strong feelings. Passenger Focus called its 20% surcharge on morning off-peak returns to London an ^Abuse^ which would particularly hurt families (see RAIL). This applies from Southampton and Winchester, for example, but not from Basingstoke whence passengers have the choice of going to Paddington via FGW.

The latest personal attack against me on your website and speculation about how Hogrider started is frankly quaint. If you really want to know the truth, here it is:

BR axed most of the Totton stops of the semi-fast off-peak Waterloo-Poole trains at a time when Totton was officially Britain^s fastest growing town.  Totton was seeing increasing number of London commuters and some people were very inconvenienced. Commuters may need to use off-peak trains on occasions for all sorts of reasons: medical, domestic, medical. At the request of some fellow commuters who knew I was interested in railways, I put together a (two-page) newsletter which I copied to them, to local MPs and Councillors, to the then RUCC and to the managing director of what is now SWT, Peter Field.

At first, Mr Field didn^t want to know, but he did eventually offer us a meeting at Southampton Central with himself and other senior managers. This broke the ice and led to a second meeting at which there was so much friendly discussion that one manager held the Totton train for a couple of minutes so that we could finish talking. Mr Field thought we should form a rail user group, as he saw such groups as playing a significant role in the future.

An immediate result of these contacts was a later service from Waterloo to Totton. Restoration of the axed off-peak Totton stops followed later.

We did not form a group immediately because of the time restraints on long-distance commuters. When we did, it was because we impressed Carlton as a well-knit, knowledgeable group that they wanted to do a programme about us. In the meantime,  I circulated more newsletters, which included updates on franchising. I copied in Brian Souter, who wrote to me on 9 January 1996 saying, ^Thank you for your letter and franchise newsletters of 8th December. I found the contents useful and informative and would appreciate if you would keep me on your mailing list.^

We expected that some kind of friendly relationship might continue:  ^We want responsiveness to passengers^ wishes. We want, in the railways, all the characteristics of the best of British industry. The Sainsburys of this world respond rather well to their customers^ changing demands without any help from the state, thank you very much. We want some of that responsiveness for the railway too^  [Dr Brian Mawhinney,  Secretary of State for Transport, in speech reproduced in DETR leaflet January 1995]


But Stagecoach doesn^t work like that:
^When we buy a business, we look at management structure, then administration, then engineering staff, and the last one we look at is the traffic. --- Once we have rationalised the network, we know exactly whether we are making money or losing it.^ [Barry Hinkley, former Stagecoach Director, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar].


^----there is a fundamental defensiveness about Stagecoach^s attitude to the press, borne of an arrogance and deep conviction that the company is right and everyone else is wrong.^ [^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


Awarding the franchise to Stagecoach was really taking the fight to the enemy --- It was the most aggressive decision we could take, and if we had tried to dress privatisation in its most acceptable form, it would have been better to award it to almost anyone else.
[Steve Norris, transport minister, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

 ^Thousands of commuters today faced delays and train cancellations as the decision to axe 71 drivers by one of the first rail companies to be privatised turned into a fiasco."  [Evening Standard 17/2/1997]

^We are going to be an hour, perhaps an hour and a half, late for work but there is not much I can do about it.^ [Commuter Brian Church, quoted in the Evening Standard 17/2/1997]


^The South^s watchdog, the Rail Users^ Consultative Committee, said customers were confused and angry.^
[Southern Daily Echo 18/2/97]


 ^It has not taken long for rail privatisation to come off the track. Barely a year after being handed a ^54 million subsidy to run South West Trains, Stagecoach is cancelling 39 trains per day and receiving no more than a light tap on the wrist from the regulator^
[Daily Telegraph, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^South West Trains have broken their privatisation pledges, leaving passengers cheated of the travel information and rail services they were promised a year ago.^ [Andrew Smith, Labour Party^s transport chief, quoted in the Evening Standard 17/2/1997]


^People have been ringing us feeling very confused and insecure. They still don^t know what^s going on.^
[Mike Hewitson, Secretary of the RUCC for Southern England, quoted in the Southern Daily Echo of 18/2/1997]

 ^We cannot be held to ransom over the needs of the present and the future by any company that fails to perform along the franchise grounds to which it signed up. The growing disenchantment of the operation of the franchise has only been added to by poor management and other decisions.^
[Councillor Mike Roberts, quoted in the Hampshire Chronicle o 21/2/97]


^We have the misfortune to live in the part of the country served by the worst single example of rail privatisation ^ South West Trains. Anybody who has travelled on the service recently will know that the whole system is in chaos, added to by South West Trains^ recent decision to scrap more than 190 of its services in a week. The problem arises through treating a public service as if it were just another marketing exercise.^
[Alan Whitehead, prospective Labour Parliamentary candidate for Southampton Test, quoted in the Southern Daily Echo, 8/3/97]


^After a few days of cutting services in a random way, which meant some much-used Portsmouth-Salisbury trains had been cancelled, prompting a host of complaints, Cox went to the franchising director, John O^Brien, to get his blessing for a programme of planned cancellations.  They agreed a plan by which SWT cut 39 trains per day, 2.6% of its 1,500 daily total, in addition to the 1% or so unplanned cancellations that result from route mishaps such as sick drivers or breakdowns. John Watts, the Transport Minister, could hardly contain his anger, calling Stagecoach^s management ^inept^.
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^SWT have until the end of April to convince me they are operating a proper service and will continue to do so. Otherwise they face a fine of a million pounds with the possibility of further sanctions, including franchise termination.^
[Franchising Director, John O^Brien, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]


^We in the Conservative party were very happy at the way rail privatisation was going ^ new investment, new ideas, new services. --- SWT instantly unwound all that. It was so obviously a grave error of judgement, so obviously to the disadvantage of passengers, and so clearly an act committed by a private company. It left a bad taste instantly in people^s mouths about SWT. Even now, the intelligent non-transport buff will remember SWT and it will take years to get SWT out of the political lexicon.^
[Steve Norris, quoted in ^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

^A total of 28,000 complaints were lodged by passengers last year against the privatised South West Trains. That is more than 500 complaints a week and does not include the massive travel chaos in February and March this year after the company got rid of too many drivers to save cash and did not have enough left to run all the trains.^
[Evening Standard, 24/4/1997]

^Souter poured petrol on the fire by suggesting that some of his customers had nothing better to do than to write letters of complaint in office time and wondered whether their bosses knew they were doing this.  --- Cox did not help by saying that ^critics were fully paid-up members of the hindsight club.^
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

I agree that Hogrider is robust. So is this:

^Souter was so ecstatic about his purchase of Porterbrook that soon after the deal, he regaled a bunch of railway bigwigs with the following ditty sung to the tune of the Teddy Bears^ Picnic, poking fun at Sir George Young, the Transport Secretary, who was based in Marsham Street in Westminster:
If you go down to Marsham Street, you^ll never believe your eyes;
If you go down to Marsham Street, you^re sure of a big surprise.
The Porterbrook sale was never expected,
Poor Sir George is feeling rejected,
And Mr Watts will never be re-elected.^
[^Stagecoach^ by Christian Woolmar]

Some five years later, Stephen Byers was threatening Stagecoach with loss of the SWT franchise for dreadful performance. So had SWT started listening to passengers? Hardly, they launched the powerful PR document ^e-motion^ which included articles by the Passengers Panel, supposedly independent, though the articles were increasingly penned by Stagecoach Director Sir Alan Greengross, contained only the most anodyne criticisms, and used set phrases like ^SWT to their credit^.  One article even attacked MPs who spoke up on behalf of passengers. I note that the FGW version of the Passengers Panel actually gives contact details of local representatives. SWT is much too centrist and controlled for that. Hogrider at least collects the comments of many people. It may surprise you that state departments do watch for trends illustrated by ongoing anecdotal evidence. It^s a kind of free research.

SWT has been hugely profitable, so much so that Stagecoach is now in a mess because it overbid for the current franchise by hundreds of millions. So there is a sting in the tail just as there was after the first franchise award, for example the ^abuse^ of the 20% fare increases, the loss of travel centres (always very busy and great for disabled people) and reduced staffing at stations (despite all the hype about secure stations, and the additional station staffing which is a requirement of the new Southern franchise.)

A quaint attack? Give me one of those anyday.  ;D

I am risking following up, and giving you the chance to get back with me on the following, as I see you are on the site at the moment.


Thank you for filling us in.  I found it very interesting to read through what you had to say, and to see further your style.  It's not my style, "but each to their own".  If everyone in the world was identical, we would all turn up at Paddington for the 17:15 to Reading ... and there would be no driver.

The moderator team does not allow personal attacks on this web site, but we do allow constructive criticism on things which are in the public domain - and we'll allow much more robust criticism of someone who himself takes full advantage of his rights to express forthright views.

Please let me know (by p.m. or email) what you consider to be a personal attack, and I will review it carefully. If it is something that I wrote that you consider to be such an attack, please use the "notify" button and it will go to another moderator, or p.m. any moderator of your choice. 

As I started this thread I feel I ought to respond to Denis' post on page 2.

Having read the various newsletters, I was interested to know what other people would make of them. As both this forum and the newsletters are in public domain and anyone can join this forum it wasn't intended to be secret - as it hasn't been. If you type in 'South Hampshire Rail Users Group' into google, this comes up as option 4 and 5 at the moment anyway. Since there is a fair amount of overlap between FGW and SWT, plus FGW serve South Hampshire I thought it was relevant to this forum.

At any rate it's produced an interesting thread! ;)

This thread has become subject to a bit of misdirected friendly fire largely due to one or two people getting a bit overexcited. Theres no need for anybody to give themselves a nosebleed, afterall most of us are working towards the same end.

I think the 'personal attack' remark may have been directed at my assertion that Denis Fryer has a 'negative attitude' and that this may not be good for his health. For any offence caused, I apologise. Although Denis himself described the personal attack as quaint, so I don't think I caused any grave offence. My remark was meant to be taken as light-hearted, however I appreciate that the tone of the written word may not always come across as intended. I'll be more liberal with my use of emoticons in future. :-[ :-[ ;D ;D

I've had an exhausting day ... and awoke from a sleep about an hour ago to find several emails and p.m.s on this subject as well as the posts that are here after my previous one.

Cutting a long story short. It's clear to me that no personal attacks were intended by anyone, and that had been handled before I awoke.   We have different ways of putting the case for the travelling peson, and of asking questions, getting answers and making suggestions, and it's good to discuss the effectiveness of otherwise of those methods - for the greater good of everyone who wants to see a healthy passenger rail industry that provides the service that the customer wants / needs.

A question was also asked as to whether or not we should have automatically have contacted SHRUG to say - "hey - you're being talked about and may want to answer".  My immediate reaction is "who do we think we are?"; for my personal blog, I regard it as almost pompous of me to get in touch with someone and say "hey - I'm talking about you - do you want to answer" but on a couple of occasions I have done so, with (it has to be said) very mixed results indeed.  For the forum?   I don't know ... someone who knows / knows of the SHRUG team let Denis know quite quickly (Thank you, xxx, excellent call).   One of our admins (not me - I was a.f.k) fast tracked confirming his account, and a welcome was added quickly on to his first post. 

I'm reasonably happy with that action - it resulted in a quick follow up from SHRUG which, after all, is excellent and exactly the result we would have wanted.  But I say just reasonably because I remain unsure if we should have had some automatic mechanism in place to alert interested (third) parties to posts which may effect them.   That's probably a bit of an esoteric discussion that should be added to the agenda for a moderators' meeting at some point ... and the decision taken will differ in 2009, when we are running at 2500 posts per month compared to 2008 when we were running at 1500 and 2007 when we had a run rate of 250.

Denis - have a great trip. And I would be delighted to read about how you get on / what you learn, especially as it provides information and comparisons that can relate to FGW and neighbouring franchsie areas and services.

The latest edition of the totally unbiased newsletter of SHRUG is now online at: http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider124/Hogrider%20124%20long%20version.html (http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider124/Hogrider%20124%20long%20version.html)

An enjoyable read as ever. Good to see that despite the usual tirade of negativity towards anything and everything to do with SWT, poor old FGW also come in for a bit of a slagging off too!

Merciful heaven, can anyone actually face reading through that tirade? Random capitalization, trains AXED rather than cancelled, DUFF STOCK (didn't know SWT ran 47s...), people THROWN OFF. This is looking like someone/some people who may have too much time on their hands.

It bring to mind (to me at least) a few short-lived posters on this site who have posted a few initial messages being loudly and thoroughly negative about every single facet of FGW in the face of evidence to the contrary - they may not be perfect but they don't run too bad a show either!

I have just scanned the lastest copy of SHRUGs 'Hogrider'. I say 'scanned', because my brain starts to hurt after a few lines of each story.  :)

However, one entry stood out. The tale of the three sixteen year old girls and their treatment at the hands of a FGW HST Train Manager and then staff at Taunton Station. If what was written in that letter is an accurate representation of the girls' treatment then it is a sad indictment on the staff involved. Shame on them.

It was also poor form of CrossCountry to sell the tickets without explicity checking that all three passengers were 16-25 Railcard holders.

http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider124/Hogrider%20124%20long%20version.html


First four lines of the Index:

"SWT’S EXTRAORDINARY PERSECUTION OF HONEST, DECENT PASSENGERS:

CONTEMPTIBLE TREATMENT OF PASSENGERS CAUSES RIOT AND CASUALTY AT TWICKENHAM: 

COUNTERING ABUSE UNDER THE PENALTY FARES SCHEME:

GIRLS’ NIGHTMARE JOURNEY FROM ROMSEY:"


The trouble is that with this sort of "reporting",  IF there is a justifiable reason to complain (as mac says there may be about the Taunton story) no-one takes any notice because of the hysterical headlines applied to every minor incident - whether it was the Rail Co's fault or not.

This guy should offer his services to the Sun AND the Mail !

I'm quite intrigued by the 'riot' at Twickenham  :)

Like BNM, I am shocked and troubled by the report of the girls' treatment by FGW staff at Taunton.

Just about the only comforting thing about that story is the fact that other members of the public were willing to put themselves out to help the girls.

I realise we're only seeing only one side of the story and that there are some glaring discrepancies (e.g. the fact that they are variously required to pay ^38 extra and ^18 extra each), but nevertheless as a father of a daughter who travels by train a lot myself I'm left feeling really quite angry on their behalf, and would very much like to know what, if any, defence FGW offer up for their staff's attitude and behaviour on this occasion.

The one thing troubling me is the fact that they booked the tickets at crosscountrytrains.co.uk therefore it is their fault regarding the 16-25 railcards being specified incorrectly. I would imagine it states that each ticket holder must hold a railcard and as with anything on the website, take it with a pinch of salt. It's probably been blown out of all proportions.

As a fellow moonraker I tend to agree with moonrakerz that it is too over the top to be effective.

I also agree with bignosemac that ones brain tends to hurt after a few lines which is a pity because there is some interesting stuff in there.

Particularly the day by day  train late, cancelled and short formed etc would be much better without the caps (inspector blakey's post) as a list with each train on one line. It would take up so many lines it would speak for itself. You could have a little summary of the number of trains affected by each cause. This should be separate stand alone posting without invective it would have more impact. Was it "Dragnet" that had "Just the Facts Mam"

There is also a very interesting piece about the new Weymouth timetable and how it differs from the DfTs spec. Now that is worth making a fuss about but it's buried so many pages deep you miss it scrolling through.

As to SWTs treatment of vunerable pasengers there does seem to be a cause for concern but as we only get the agrieved parties story it is difficult to draw any conclusions. I know from posts on this board from those in the know that such incidents are often not as they seem and the TOC may not be entirely to blame as is assummed here.

The problem is the overhype of particular cases tends to conceal what might be worrying concerns that SWT trains have instructed there staff to get the most money out of people irrespective of it's legality or morality, whilst at the same time reducing the opportunity for legitmate passengers to get the correct ticket. If this were to be  the case then a rational campaign siting in non emotional language as many case as possible would be a good way of drawing attention to SWT practices.

But I have to say if SWT is as bad as portrayed here than I shall stop saying I started work at Waterloo for South West Division of SR I'd be too ashamed to see how badly it's doing compared with then.

Although it makes you glad we've only got FGW.

Hi all

You may find this page regarding the tunnel under Southampton city centre of interest:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/hampshire/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8383000/8383071.stm

best wishes

Never spotted this before, but will put my observations forward:


Basically to me none of it adds up.

That's exactly what I said when this was discussed a while back, Ollie.

Just re-read your post, yeah I'd be interested to see the FGW response. If this happened back in August then I'd assume the customer would have got a response by now. Maybe just doesn't want to show it?

Perhaps it'll be in the next unfettered rant thrilling installment. I'm awaiting it with bated breath!

I'm also waiting with bated breath for the next thrilling installment unfettered rant!

Good news - the next edition is up and running at http://www.shrug.info/

A brief mention for FGW - apparently the Pompey - Cardiff services are overcrowded from Pompey - Soton. No prizes for guessing who's partially to blame for running a poor alternative (despite the fact there's little difference in journey time - 45 to 55 minutes - as the linespeed is generally low). Also a moan about the Pompey - Penzance service being removed.

I like the fact that now there's an hourly Waterloo - Exeter with a good connection to from Southampton at Salisbury in either direction this gets as brief and as grudging a mention as possible. ;)

Do you get the feeling they are not fans of SWT?

I'm sure they have a point, but reading that sort of vitriol gets tiring after the first couple of pages. 

Agree with John R too much Vitriol.

A lot of good stuff gets lost in the rant.

As I posted previously a few tables/list posted without the comments in CAPS would be much more effective. There is a whole list of trains with DUFF STOCK given as a problem. It seems to be a lot but howmany? Many seemed to be short formed rather than cancelled so what's the breakdown. I can't be bothered to count them all up. But given the number of trains SWT run it could be a fairly small percentage that are subject to DUFF Stock. I've no way of knowing.

Are pax really 'THROWN OFF' due to 'DUFF STOCK'? Who does the throwing (conjures up some interestring images) and what constitutes duff? At lease with this forum's 'Current Running' we get an idea of the reasons behind 'OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE'  ;D

Don't forget the services that are not cancelled but AXED... Conjures up some rather strange images in my head, anyway.  :)

And on further reflection, as we've learned from the many "insiders" who post on this forum, isn't OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE (sic) generally the railway trying to benefit as many people as possible when circumstances get difficult?

Hogrider 128 is now out covering June to September.  Well worth a read as it amuses me greatly - though as ever the layout of the 'newsletter' is atrocious, so I'd recommend having some Nurofen handy.

I was slightly shocked to see a section headed 'Miscellaneous Good News', but when I got to it, it was actually praising Cross Country and Southern and soon got back to the more regular territory of SWT bashing!

Poor SWT. What have they done to deserve such roth!

For anyone who wants a taster ...

(http://www.wellho.net/images/hogglobe.gif)

It's been said before, but I think there would be a far greater positive effect from this newsletter if it was rather more constructive in its approach. 

Example:

I notice a 42 minute delay on a half hourly service and that stops were AXED DUE TO OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE; I expect the passengers had all gone on the train 30 minutes after their planned one, and running the other service fast probably helped change a 35 MINUTES LATE on the next service for that piece of stock into just a 10 MINUTES LATE ...

I'm sure there are valid criticisms in there, but it's hard to know which ones, or what the alternatives were ...

Nice work Graham! Reckon you should email them that graphic and suggest they use it to spiff up the visuals on their website a bit ;)

Good news for fans of microfiche-style web pages, raNDoM capITALIZation and bile, edition 129 covering Sep - Dec 2010 is online at http://www.shrug.info/ (http://www.shrug.info/).

Actually, although that approach probably isn't the one I would choose myself / within my area, nor to sponsor, it may just be that it's effective for indirect lobbying - helping to get MP's blood boiling for their constituents in the London suburbs, for example - elsewhere.

As part of a private presentation I was giving, I took some text from the daily reports on a similar page to the one you're linked to, and wrapped them around a spinning globe.  A good way to bring home to the audience a couple of points I was making;   I can't copy the globe here, I'm afraid, as it would no longer be private and I would have to seek copyright clearance from the author who may not be thrilled with that use of his/her feed in public.

The approach taken by the SHRUG may have a positive effect on local MPs, but it has certainly alienated SWT management! Which isn't a particularly clever thing to do if you are actually trying to improve local rail services rather than just have a good old rant. It is also rather suspicious that SHRUG never mentions the poor performance of Southern services to and from Southampton, with regular cancellations and missed stops. Likewise, CrossCountry are to be praised where Virgin Trains were to be hated as they were 49% owned by Stagecoach.


I may be missing something, but isn't the graphic of which you speak shown on the previous page of this thread?

Oh ... err ... looks like I was the one who missed something.  Yes, that *is* the graphic.

When I first got involved in working for a more appropriate train service, our fundamental need was to raise the profile of our line / case and to ensure that people knew that we'd come out of the new franchise agreement with a truly dreadful result. And at that stage, a strong approach was needed; as a naturally "work with" type I found that distinctly hard, and we also made sure that it was well informed and fair too - but never the less it was strong and almost adversarial at times.

But times move on and indeed you'll see us working in partnership now - and that has to be very much the strategy and be so all along, even if the tactics have occasionally had to differ.    I'm not privvy to SHRUG's shorter and longer term approach, but there are these phases where strength helps.  And a lack of strength can mean that the campaigning party is simply fillibustered through annual changes ...

Hogrider 131 now out:  http://www.shrug.info/ (http://www.shrug.info/)

Just read their "history of SWT" - surprised they havn't been sued. It had me in stithces!

I like one of their sources - private eye! :o

I must admit looking at part 3 SWT don't seem to run a very good service there doesn't seem to be a day without at least 4 incidents which is probably low considering the number of trains SWT run, but there are other days when the I can't be bothered to count the number of trains involed, so as Grahame says the the whole list loses it impact.

I've posted before I would like to see a summary table of Total No. trains late, Total No. cancelled, Total number stopped short, Total No. missing stops, Total No. Short Formed. Each with a percentage  figure based on the number of trains SWT should have run over the period. I am sure that would give a better picture.

i could be done daily, weekly, monthly, 3 monthly and yearly.
The list could still be published so that one could go to specific dates to see what happened. The trouble is that it might prove that SWT don't in overall terms run a bad service.

Travelled with SWT on a 4 for 2 from Axeminster to Exeter Central, change for Exemouth, the other month both trains on time and plenty of seats.
I shall be traveling by them again on Sunday 14th from Teddington probably to Datchet so will see. Reminds is there any engineering work that weekend on the Windsor lines. if so have to use my bus pass to get to Hounslow and 81 to Slough.

The monthly tables NR publish almost always show SWT as one of the best, statistically. AIUI all their services are reported on under the 5 min delay measure, because they are a London and SE TOC, so '10 min late = on time' doesn't apply, like it does with an intercity TOC. 

The SHRUG contribution to the 'Hampshire section' in the recent London and SE consultation (available online on NR website) is a fairly reasonable set of proposals, but at the same time some of it is just the normal rant about timekeeping, and the 'better timetable' that ran prior to 2004.  I think they are a stuck record, and I also suspect they have no credibility with the decision makers - I don't think they are representative of anyone but a few individuals.

I'm pretty sure SWT don't give them house room anymore...

Paul

How do they get all those details? :o do members send it all in?

If it's true, it's a shame that passengers are DUMPED at Southampton when all stops to bournemouth are AXED. ;D

Who's got the time to collect, post and then read all that vitriol? Go home and rethink your life! (i.e. And get local job, not in London)

We all need the occasional rant, but that's excessive!

I'm afraid that HogRider reminds me of just how much I want to be involved in very different and very much more positive approach.  That much more positive approach is showing some dividends at the moment too ...

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9113.msg95872#msg95872

I have to say that whenever I've travelled with SWT over the last couple of years it's always been on time.

And their trains seem to be a lot cleaner than many that I travel on.

Isn't 'AXED' one of your favourite phrases? ;)

I do like the word axed. It's so veristile when reporting the news: "axe falls on vital link" or "trees AXED for new homes", "Love Never Dies AXED after poor reviews".... etc.

I've never seen it used so many times in one place! :o

I have to say that it does have me in stiches: 1715 runs 26 MINUTES LATE, all stops between Soton and Bournmouth AXED, tired passengers DUMPED at Soton. The images it conjures up...

(Now if only Cotswold line went like this: 1751 runs 26 mins late, all stops between Oxford and Worcester axed... ;) )

The other thing SHRUG never does is highlight the abominable performance of Southern services to Southampton, yet constantly plugs them as the "good value" option from Southampton or Portsmouth to London by comparing their fastest time with the SWT stopping services! Yes, Southern are cheaper but you pay for this in terms of service reliability, quality of rolling stock and journey times. Things have improved considerably on FGW Wessex, but there's still plenty of room for improvement on punctuality, again this is not mentioned by SHRUG.

SHRUG also loves to suggest that only SWT cut stops for "OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE", when in reality Southern and the other SE area TOCs do this just as frequently but again this is glossed over so as to present Southern as the saintly company. Likewise, according to SHRUG, SWT's staff are all lazy jobsworths who will hand out penalty fares at the slightest opportunity, whereas all of FGW and Southern's staff are laidback and friendly.

It's no wonder SWT management stopped taking SHRUG seriously years ago.

And Barry Doe, who has a side-swipe at them in the latest RAIL magazine for them accusing him of being a Stagecoach lobbyist.

At first glance, it seems strange that SHRUG don't complain about SN's Arun Valley line (Oh - it's not Stagecoach.). Because tired commuters are often DUMPED at Horsham, so the Soton train can make up time by having all stops AXED. I suppose the policy here benefits Hampshire - this just demonstrates the hypocrisy of the website.

Are there any other examples of issues blatantly being ignored? I'm so pleased that this website is much more balanced. Grahme: can you imagine a SHRUG forum? If anyone dared suggest a converse view, they'd get their membership AXED!

They completely fail to mention the many times when "family friendly" Southampton-bound Southern trains are turned back at Havant, or diverted to Bognor Regis.

Hmm .. that's your view, said tongue in cheek I'm sure.   Denis of SHRUG is a member here, and posted earlier in this thread.  He's very welcome to contribute / post further, though I think that some of his views on how best to work for the improvement of rail / services differ from most of ours to the extent that he might find us intimidating.  Denis?  Are you there?

P.S.   Having done a bit of CRP work and had around 250 people on the 19:37 Westbury to Swindon each August Sunday (comparison - Sunday 5th September, when there was no southbound service in the morning - 10 people), I do feel that working with the train operator to our mutual benefit has much to commend it.

The latest thrilling* edition of the Hogrider is out! :P

http://www.shrug.info/

_{* Containing some SHOCKING conspiracy theories about the Lymington Town station master.}

I currently have something of a headache - would you suggest I hold off on perusing the Hogrider until it's gone Btline? Or would that just give me another one?!  :P

Edited to add...
Got to about paragraph 5 and gave up! This was the breaking point - in a discussion about the Ian Faletto case the following is quoted:


It might seem pedantic, but as many of you will know one of the first rules of track safety is that you never rely on a timetable, and must expect trains to approach from any direction at any time.

Off to find something a little more easy-going...

That one sentence says all that needs to be said.  ::)

It's a pity that it is so long and vitriolic that your brain begins to hurt as Inspector Blacky says.

Thre some interesting points. The one about Secure Stations and bike thefts i agree with it's a nonsense for an unmammed staion and somewhat dubious for a single manned station who is in the office most of the time, to be called secure.

Also the number of AXED LATE DUFF SHORT FORMED trains and DUMPED passengers does seem to be high but the way it's presented doesn't allow you analyse the results.

A simple table of the trains what happened to it with totals for each type of incident would give much better picture.

I presume with even with these seemingly high numbers of incidents SWT is meeting it's performance targets due to large number of trains it runs each day that are ontime  or upto 5.10 late) or not AXED etc.

Are missing stops, turning back short  or short formed count against SWT?. If they don't then a simple table of all these events would be far more effective in pointing out what SWT are getting away with and might just if it's pointed ot to the local MPs persude DaFT to include them in the statistics for all TOCs and for adverse figures to leaad to rebates.

This would be of benefit to all rail users throughout the country and might get poor perfoming TOCs to pull their socks up or if they are infrastructure problems to start beating Networkrail around the head.

The latest edition is out on the website.  To save brains hurting too much I'll sum up the topics discussed in it:

REFRANCHISING THREAT TO THE SOUTH - Negative story about Stagecoach

SWT^S SATISFACTION SCORES CRASH - Negative story about SWT

NEW SWT MANAGING DIRECTOR DISPLAYS CUSTOMARY STAGECOACH SCORN FOR LONG DISTANCE COMMUTERS - Negative story about SWT

WHAT PEOPLE THINK OF STAGECOACH RAIL - Negative stories about SWT and Virgin (49% Stagecoach owned)

SWT^S PASSENGERS PANEL OTIOSE?  - Negative story about SWT

EXTRAORDINARY ATTEMPTS TO FAULT PASSENGERS - Negative story about SWT

UNSAFE TO SERVE REFRESHMENTS ON THE 06.50! - Negative story about SWT

THE SMALL SOCIETY: SWT DRIVES OUT VOLUNTEERS - Negative story about SWT

IS SWT MISUSING POLICE RESOURCES? - Negative story about SWT

FAILURES TO STAFF SWT TICKET OFFICES CONTINUE - Negative story about SWT

SWT STATION LIFT FAILURES CONTINUE - Negative story about SWT

RAILFUTURE MEETING - Neutral story about developments in the area

TRAINS TO HYTHE STILL ON THE AGENDA - Positive story about future developments in the area (non TOC specific)

STAGECOACH BUS DANGERS SPREADING - Negative story about Stagecoach

DFT^S GREAT WESTERN FRANCHISE REPLACEMENT CONSULTATION - Replies from the group to the consultation

CONGRATULATIONS TO SOUTHERN AND SOUTH EASTERN - Positive story about Southern and SouthEastern

IN BRIEF - Several negative stories about SWT and Stagecoach and the odd neutral one

DUFF SWT TRAINS CAUSE MISERY ON THE IDES OF MARCH - Negative story about Stagecoach


Meanwhile, I had cause to use a SWT train from Basingstoke to Clapham Junction the other week.  It was on time, clean, had seats available just after the rush-hour so still at a busy time, and I had my ticket checked.

 ;D

I've been a little slow on the uptake here, but you'll be delighted to hear that Hogrider 137 was sh@t out published recently. For your reading pleasure and edification, point your browser in this direction:

www.shrug.info (http://www.shrug.info)

Ouch! Just visited their website and it isn't exactly easy on the eye, is it?!

I'd encourage all new members to visit this site, as it's a great example of how not to run a user group, whilst being very entertaining, if a little painful on the eye.

This makes the heaviest of 'rants' in this Forum look like a nursery rhyme.  There is no let-up in excoriating criticism and not one piece of encouragement to the staff to change anything.  Is nothing right in Hampshire for SWT users?  How sad that this group had deteriorated into such a negative frame of mind.  I'd rather be part of a balanced Forum with an excellent informative grape-vine than one which is basically a gripe-vine.

Like the Daily Express on steroids...

What worries me is that someone is spending an awful lot of time writing these "articles" which are probably just being laughed at by SWT and other user groups (such as ourselves).

I assume hope they automate the list of AXED services  ::)

I agree, Brucey. With friends like these, who needs enemas?

I don't think they do: if you can face trawling through the fine print I seem to recall there's a disclaimer tucked away somewhere which basically says that the lists of services AXED due to DUFF STOCK and passengers KICKED OFF for OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE are not comprehensive because they're based on reports from members  :o

I thought such passengers were DUMPED for OPERATIONAL CONVENIENCE, rather than KICKED OFF?  ::) :o ;D

You may well be right, all I could see by that stage was a miasma of angry-making shouty VENOM AND BILE swarming round in front of my eyes ;)

Indeed: I just get a HEADACHE trying to read it ...  ::)

Can almost hear the ball bearings clacking (Captain Queeg style in The Caine Mutiny)  in the other hand of the author who seems to spend every waking minute denigrating every little shortcoming of SWT !  ::)

Newer members may like to take a look back and see the comments made by Denis Fryer of SHRUG, who posted some background on this forum a few years back - see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=profile;u=696;sa=showPosts (works for logged in members only, I believe - others will need to search for his posts!)

I'm currently feeling like I need a lifetime membership card for SHRUG.  Yesterday, I was DUMPED at Woking after my service was diverted via Eastleigh then AXED due to an icey conductor rail, points failure and a broken down train.  Total delay 2hr 10mins.  Today, I was DUMPED at Guildford and then again at Woking after two services were AXED due to a broken rail near Raynes Park*.  Total delay 1hr 5mins.

Customer service has been very poor, especially at my starting station of Bedhampton, where the ticket office lady (when open) can only tell us what it says on JourneyCheck.

At Woking yesterday, there were no staff on hand to ask questions.  They were all hanging around the cab of one train (four staff, excluding the driver and guard), avoiding the clump of passengers along the platform.

Guildford this morning, the person on the PA was telling us to take a stopping service to London Waterloo, rather than the fast service just a few minutes behind.  It seems all they wanted to do was get people out of the station, regardless of how much time it would add to their journey.  I ended up taking this fast service from Woking in the end.

No response to my Tweets to @SW_Trains recently.  Perhaps they've blocked me?

Not a happy bunny at the moment.  Given recent definition of void days, I'm not expecting either day to be declared void.

* = The rails seem to be breaking in this exact location at an all too frequent rate at the moment.

If they've blocked you, you won't be following them any longer. If so, try & re-follow - it will tell you that you can't if they've blocked you....

The latest issue of Hogrider is out.  Although I agree with many of their sentiments (especially with regards to "bouncers" on station platforms, which is probably worthy of an entire thread of its own at some stage) I find their sensationalist language far too off-putting to actually take them seriously.

As a follow up to my post above in March, the first day was declared half void, so ^11.40 refunded.  The second day wasn't void, but this coupled with my other delays and poor customer service that month, resulted in the issue of ^23.00 in Rail Travel Vouchers.  The response letter actually read like someone had read my letter and answered each point individually, rather than stringing together a library of stock paragraphs.

Hi mate was your twitter on protected tweets? If so unless they follow you then they can't read any of your posts unless they follow back including ones where you mention them

At the time, my account was not protected.

Sadly the SHRUG website can no longer be found.  I was looking forward to a good laugh.  Has the group disbanded?

The web site in history can be seen on the way back machine - for example:

http://web.archive.org/web/20130614130010/http://shrug.info/

I don't have any current details of the group.   There is a phone number on the Better Transport web site -
http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/south_hampshire_rail_users
and one of their key members - Den(n)is Fryer - is a forum member, though inactive for a number of years
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=profile;u=696

Dennis Fryer's opinion is still regularly quoted in the Portsmouth news, as though he speaks on behalf of everyone in the area, and also as though 'SHRUG' is somehow representative; e.g. in this recent story:

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/traffic-travel/portsmouth-rail-commuters-miss-out-on-210m-boost-1-6280797

...where they are commenting on something that's basically nothing to do with them, i.e. inner suburban trains for Windsor, ordered by SWT to meet the DfT's HLOS requirements for CP5 of 10 car trains for the Reading route.  (Confusingly, the 30 new 5 car units will displace the 458/5s off the Windsor routes back onto the main Reading route.)

The local MP is badly informed as well, it should be obvious that DfT don't just say "here's some ^millions SWT, spend it on whatever you like" - (unless I've been seriously misinformed about the HLOS/SoFA procedure for the last ten years or so).

However it wouldn't surprise me at all if SWT and DfT just politely ignore anything with SHRUG involvement...

Paul

Hence the piece on South West Trains' website:-

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/Portsmouth%20part%20of%20investment%20plans%20says%20South%20West%20Trains-Network%20Rail%20Alliance.aspx

The SHRUG website has now reappeared after an unexplained absence for several days.  The new 'Hogrider' is available for view.

No apology that the website was AXED for several days, though it does mention a DUFF Internet Service Provider, and the fact the newsletter is SHORT FORMED only including data up to 25th September.  Perhaps the server was SEVERELY OVERCROWDED?   ;)

This ‘user group’ seems to have gone quiet recently

Be careful what you wish for? Lol

The part of your post that I have NOT quoted could be seen as a personal attack on another member.  You may well not agree with his views or methods of expressing them but, please, restrain from personal attacks.

Although not aimed at an individual, I have modified the post

Thank you.  It's so often not how something's intended but how it can be misread!

It was good to meet Dennis, representing SHRUG, at the Trowbridge consultation today.   He confirmed the common story from the gathered audience that connectivity at Westbury is key for Solent area passengers travelling to Taunton, Plymouth and beyond.

Did he mention Stagecoach at all?   ;)

As it was a very busy couple of hours, our conversation was quite brief.  I did mention The Coffee Shop, where he is a member and has posted a few times.  Good to put a face to the name, and a voice to what has been purely an online correspondence.

Did he talk in CAPS?

 ;D

Ah ... some of us are characterised by our online style and don't come across in quite the same way in person.  I  (and another member or two) here tend to mis-spell, and there are others who capitalise for emphasis on written pieces but not in real life.   It's actually become rather a good marketing tool for SHRUG - whether intended that way initially or not.

The header to my post reminds me "first post in this topic for 41 months - are you sure?"   Yes, I am - looking around at various sites, I see the SHRUG newsletter quoted in Rail User Express - from  http://www.shrug.info/Hogrider163/Hogrider%20163.html. Much of the character remains, suggesting to me that Hogrider still has the same people behind it, but there is no longer a long list of train services changed by Stagecoach / SWT.

Section headlines (in the traditional shouty style):