Great Western Coffee Shop

from Staffordshire News
 [Warning of rail chaos in Midlands as Cross Country train staff strike
Jul 28 2009
Train services through the West Midlands face disruption after workers at Arriva Cross Country decided to stage a month of industrial action in a row over pay and working conditions.

Industrial action on the route, which runs through Birmingham, Coventry, Wolverhampton, Nuneaton and Stoke-on-Trent, will include a ban on overtime and refusing to pick up litter from trains.

The Rail Maritime and Transport union said the action will start next Monday and continue until September 2 following a 4-1 vote in favour of a campaign short of a strike.

The union claimed that industrial relations had broken down at the company, which runs services across England and into Wales and Scotland.

Apologies - Devon Metro beat me to it!
See "Across the West"
brompton rail. :-[

I find it rather ironic that one of the reasons for privatisation and breaking up the railway was to lessen the power of the unions in particular ASLEF and the RMT.

However, with the smaller groupings it means that chaos can be caused by a relatively small number of staff working for one organisation taking industrial action.

Thus the unions no longer have to call national strikes but can pick off TOCs and other rail companies at will.

But that's the way capitalism is meant to work, the strong exploit the weak, so good luck to them. If I had to work all day on a Vomiter I might well join them.

That's industrial action is it? Working as per contract? And isn't the on-train cleaning on AXC contracted out to ISS? I can't see ISS cleaners being members of the RMT.

Management must be quaking in their boots at such dire action!

Is the turnout 55% of union members or 55% of the workforce?. If it's the former then, with a vote of 4 to 1 in favour, my elementary maths works that out as less than half the union members in favour of the action. So more than enough staff still available to cover overtime, sickness, Sundays etc.

No, Cross Country stopped the contract with ISS, and Train Managers and Retail Service Managers are not contracted to litter pick. What a sheer outrage. I wholly support the action.

Better avoid XC at weekends then! ::)

Oh, I forgot, I already do.... ;D

As for cleaning. I doubt there'll be any difference, as the trains are always full of litter! Arriva = litter filled trains for some reason...

It all depends how much they rely on staff working rest days and extra Sundays. If it's anything like FGW then it would have a significant effect on what service it could offer, especially at weekends. A month worth of, say, 5% of trains being cancelled would have enough of an effect on Arriva's takings (and CrossCountry's reputation) to get those boots quaking!

But it appears to not be a 'one out, all out' bit of industrial action. With only a 55% turnout for the vote for action, will non-voting staff not just pick up all the juicy overtime and Sundays?

And this is right in the holiday period when you get people who don't normally use the trains.

XC may give a bad experience to such people, who'll not use the trains again!

I'm a regular traveller and XC seem to give me a bad experience all too often. If I'm heading south-west from Bristol I try wherever possible to either catch a via BRI HST or detrain at Taunton and swap to a FGW HST there.

I never normally have problems with Cross Country, however, when I travel I try and get an HST.

I had a very useful 90 minutes on one from Bristol to Newton Abbot the other week. Window view, table, socket and an empty carriage. Excellent for doing some work on my laptop. (and btline - yes I was in the quiet carriage)

As it is official action, even those who didn't vote or voted 'no' to action would be expected by the Union to take the action. Like it or not, that's what being a member of a Union is all about. The extent of the collective strength and solidarity of the membership, and the reliance on the company of staff working extra hours, will determine how successful the action is.

I thought that might be the case. Thanks for pointing that out. Won't change my opinion of dinosaur unions like the RMT though.

Yet another reason unions should be banned - especially in a recession when i'm sure there are people out there who could do the job and be willing to pick up litter as well.

Whats the big issue about a train manager and retail service manager having to collect litter?  Surely isnt an issue on the long stretches of the XC routes once tickets have been checked?

DO no cleaners get on at all now then?  Last time i travelled XC in July, a cleaner got on to pick up litter?

Well seeing the state of standard class in HST's 2 hours out of London I can well understand why TM's would not want it added to their job description. OK, different line I know, but litter collection is a grotty job at the best of times.

i still see the ISS cleaners getting on at btm,maybe they are just seeing out the contract?

And I'm fairly certain I saw someone in an ISS uniform collecting litter between Cheltenham and Bristol a few weeks back. Have AXC really dumped their ISS contract? Any conformation of this?

My God, it's the 21st century, and yet it appears from this quote that a Sunday rail service is only run on the goodwill of the frontline staff. "If everybody throws in their Sundays..." is less a threat and more a case of holding the TOC and ultimately the passenger to ransom. I can only surmise that the RMT and its members don't want to have Sundays included in contracted hours as it might take away some lucrative overtime. In my last job I got sod-all extra for working a Sunday, just part of my shift pattern.

I work Sundays. Perhaps I should get in touch with the RMT ;)

Umm.... my point is that Sundays should be part of contracted hours. Pay a bit more by all means...

So what is the deal with Sundays, do you get time off in lieu as well?

A total ban on litter-picking on trains..........they must have started this early!  :D

So its definetly official that no cleaning contract will take place on the trains? 

So will a cleaner get on at the very end of the service, at the terminating station to clean properly?  Or willit just be left to get worse and worse?

WHo will restock the toilet paper etc>?

We should call Brussels!

The EU would have something to say - it's probably against our human rights to have no toilet paper in the loos... ;D

Things like this are just archaic!

I have "colleagues" who have just been told 25% rate cut - take it or leave it.........................thing is - unionization would not help - we'd be replaced by indians. 

Live in the real world.  I wont be striking because of their rate cut - I'm negotiating a rate rise!

If my negotiating skills and my performance are good enough, I'll get it - if not, I wont.  Same applies to them.

And dont get me started on full out strikes - thats is why I have no sympathy.  You guys strike, I dont make it into work.  I dont give a crap about whether or not you hurt FGW - are you going to reimburse me ^520 for loss of a days earnings?

Well what they should do is just have a rolling week - you get 2 days off - sundays fall into the pot.  BUT - you get paid sunday as if its a normal day - same as saturday.    Thats what most supermarket staff do.

I know people who would rather have, say, a friday and sat off - they can do stuff!

Its the RMT!  And I dont ONLY use FGW!

And was there not an agreement about not starting arguments............... but if you want to go there I'm quite happy to - dont think the mods will be

You both have a valid point that could have been made in a more mature way.....

Now now children. That nasty Mod is gonna come along with his big stick if you are not careful...... ;D

The fact is.....yes my card maybe dodgy -  HOWEVER 99% of my travel is on a season which I dont use it for!

The rest I always buy on the train from a TM on a  walk on FC fare which it isnt valid for anyway.,

So guess what - if TM's actually followed the rules, I'd spend 26 quid and get no benefit - they dont.  I dont hide the fact but they still sell me it. 

Its not just FGW - its all the TOC's I use - except cross country and the very very occasional arriva guard and 2 FGW TM's who I know by name and I dont bother to ask!.

Lets just move past that.... It's a valid point that there are thousands of people that are out of work and because of this working conditions in some jobs are poor and some people belive that strike action is there only hope... However in businesses offering a service that is essential to the country like rail and royal mail I wonder if it is a bit selfish or is it selfish of us to want a decent service and not care how staff are treated?

But I though you were allowed a Student railcard due to your OU stuff. ??? Anyway, none of my business...

---------------

Anyway, this system for Sunday working needs to be changed! I remember a few years ago that ALL Central Trains' services were cancelled on a Sunday, because CT had a system where you could turn up if you wanted to, and on said day noone did! Can't it be done like many jobs where you get different days off each week so there's always the same staff everyday and everyone gets the same hours/pay?

You misunderstand - I would never get a taxi from the hol inn to tesco - id walk

I was just amused by the difference of a season ticket and a valid one off ticket when waling through a station

And yes, im lucky in what I do but I worked bloody hard to get there

How many people would swap the hours I do- leaving 0530 getting home 2230 or alternatively paying to live in temporary accomodation where you are working (which in thames valley is much more  than an FC monthly season ticket unless you want to live in shitsville!).  If I wasnt in debt due to an ex fiance and a dodgy accountant - I'd swap your job any day.  I havent done it but I've been spending 5 hours a day on a train most days for five years - I am under no illusion what a TM/guard has to put up with - I've seen it and can extrapolate to day in an day out.

With the pension, the holidays, sick pay etc etc - yeah - id swap tomorrow and id happily work sundays.

Technically the OU is not allowed...its distance learning

If I turned up at a ticket office with a certificate from the OU saying I was a full time student - which I am - 120 credit a year - its not accepted for a rail card

BUT - I can get an ISIC card

Show up at a ticket office with an ISIC card -you get a rail card!

Loop hole!  Which falmingo has an issue with

Surely if you can get a ISIC card, then your entitlement to a RC is fine?

So because someone is not as valuable to the company they should be protected by others?

So they are thick and non-skilled (lack knowledge or ability) - great - you've just basically said RMT members are stupid - maybe I should not trust the driver or the TM when I get on the train on thursday.

Thats my argument - but apparently not

Ok - this is how I justify it

"If you are 26 or over, you will need proof that you are a full-time student at a recognised educational establishment.  You must attend for over 15 hours a week and for at least 20 weeks a year.  You can either show an ISIC card (International Student Identity Card)or have the 'Mature Students Only' section of the application form completed and certified.  Because we need to see this proof, you must apply at a staffed station ticket office or rail appointed Travel Agent.  NUS cards will not be accepted as proof of age/educational status (Open University, distance learning and part-time courses do not qualify). "

You can get an OU NUS cad on 10 credit course lasting 4 weeks - I can see why an OU NUS card doesn't apply

HOwever - to get an ISIC card, you have to prove full time education - as well as being a project manager I do 120 credit uni level study a year - I am a full time student offcially.

Change the position of the OU disclaimer or accept - if you are full time student you qualify

Whoa, whoa. What have YP railcard conditions got to do with AXC industrial action? Can we please get back on topic?

He started  it

Ladies and gentlemen,

At this point I'm going to step in and ask, politely, that the matter of the Y-P railcard be dropped. As bignosemac rightly pointed out, this thread is about action short of strike on XC, please keep it that way.

Thanks everyone.

If that tenner's on the floor you're not allowed to pick it up :P

Still slighty off topic but made I laff ;D

Right, because there is obviously a distinct correlation between people who aren't necassarily the most vocal or skilled at presentation, argument or debating, and intelligence. Those geeky technical types who don't like socialising and have stunted conversations are obviously just really really stupid people, who yet somehow manage to grasp complex abstract concepts, despite being "dense"?

Fine, let's abolish solicitors full stop, and force people to represent themselves when going through divorce, lawsuits or criminal cases. If people then get screwed over, well who cares, they're only simpletons who deserve it after all.

So the stewards who serve food, who are supposed to adhere to strict hygene regulations, are now to clean the train as well? Does that not just sound a little bit iffy...

Not been on for a while so struggled to find a specific post to reply to!
 TOCs would find it hard to integrate Sundays into the working week, as it would be hard to fit it into a standard rest day pattern, with (as a rule) less services running on a Sunday due to the lack of a peak, and less revenue coming in due to the lack of peak time fares it would be hard to justify having the same number of traincrew turning out for duty as on a week day.

The way the system generally operates in 'peacetime' is that the company have enough staff willing to cover Sunday diagrams at a pro-rata rate of pay, with no more spares than is required to cover contingencies.

Going back to one of the original posters this is a matter of staff working and doing what they are paid to do, with no more, exposing the reliance on staff to work overtime and do extra duties.

From speaking to people I know locally who work for XC conditions have gradually worsened since Arriva were awarded the franchise, with an increasing focus on revenue at the detriment of customer service and common sense and also the removal of shop/buffets and the provision of a trolley instead. Its the alteration of aspects of someone's working day like this, all I'm led to believe contracted, that leads to fierce resistance to any additional duties placed upon them. How long would it be before a Retail Service Manager was disciplined for stock shortages because they left their trolley unattended to go pick litter? Or a Train Manager forgetting to offload a wheelchair passenger because in addition to safety critical, customer service and revenue duties they were expected to pick up the packet of crisps dropped on the floor at the other end of the train.

Now don't get me wrong, the vast majority of guards that I know do not mind popping things in the bin as they go or on a long stretch without any stops going through the train with a bin bag, it's not in our contract (well actually it is in mine for certain turn-back locations providing the company have provided said bags and protective gloves!), but to be expected to do it, on top of other duties on busy trains (and let's face it XC don't exaclty have a great deal of spare capacity) and then be potentially disciplined for not doing it would get me quite cross!

Right, rant over!

No, they are not chefs, they are making tea and handing over sealed boxes of sarnies.  Lets not introduce a spurious health and safety issue into the arguement.

The point is that poorly paid staff are being asked to work harder for no extra pay.  That is unfair.

Privatisation does seem to have failed to improve relationships between management and staff.  I am not sure who should take the blame for this.  But it strikes me that if for example Starbucks asked their barristers to clear up rubbish when they had spare time they would just get on with it and it wouldn't even cross their mind to consider if that new responsibility was part of their contract or not or whethe ror not they would get disapplined for omiting to do it (is this good or bad- I'm not sure).

the other point I would make is that the recent rail satisfaction serveys have about 50% passenger satisfaction for onboard staff helpfulness and atitude for almost every TOC except for Grand Central and Marylebone and Shropshire whoa re at 80 or 90%.  maybe TOCs are just too big for every staff member to be happy and moptivated - I don't know

sunday is outside of the working week,you are rostered to work so many a month but can opt out if you wish to,if you work then it is time and a quarter.
it can be a good bargaining tool as central trains have proven in the past when no drivers turned up around new year time i believe it used to be a annual tradition for all drivers to have the same day off? ATW also did the same a few months back in a dispute over pay and conditions since arriva took over xc

touche

Having been on a management skills training course a couple of years ago with someone who worked for Starbucks, I can confirm that staff at ALL levels are expected to spend at least one day working at the sharp end. Pret a Manger actually insist on their management spending one day every year working in a shop, but Starbucks (at that time anyway) merely insisted on them having the one day of experience.

So, yes, it is entirely possible that Starbucks Barristers might be seen cleaning tables.

I have to say - I'm with Fallen ANgel on this one. Unions should be banned. As someone else who is self-employed, I have no sympathy with mass industrial action. I worked for a big multi-national and if I didn't like like what was thrown at me, they would have posted my job out to Bangalore, Gdansk or Manilla. If I wanted more money, I had to negotiate it myself and work bloody hard to get a bonus. I also faced redundancy because of outsourcing abroad to improve profit margins.

I also pay a ridiculous amout of NI for bugger all social security in return. Sick pay, unemployment, etc etc - all a dream. Holding a company and a region (well, with XC, several regions) to ransom is disgusting. WHy should the rest of us suffer because others don't like what they are being asked to do. And as for poorly paid - ok, I understand the safety element but please, the vast majority of rail staff are NOT poorly paid for what they do - and I base that on job ads I have seen on FGW's site.
Redundancy is a fact of commercial life.

Is that the best response you can come up with?

Shame

Maybe its a difference in ideology - socialism versus getting of your backside and doing the best you can and living with the consequences

Well when all you rugged self-employed types have quite finished, if we all went self-employed to avoid overbearing employers (precisely the kind of organisations unions were set up to take on), then how exactly would firms like FGW or XC function?

I can just hear the announcement now (or maybe we shouldn't, because an announcement would upset you all, wouldn't it?) "Sorry but the 6.43 from Hereford to London won't run today because the dynamic, thrusting individual contractor driver has withdrawn his labour as a negotiating tactic/has gone to work for someone else for more money."

There were countries where trade unions were banned and the trains ran on time - Nazi Germany and fascist Italy (though apparently Mussolini wasn't above a bit of timetable padding either).

Being a union member is as much anyone's right as it is yours to be self-employed  - and self-employed people can - and do - withdraw their labour as well, whatever fancy description you wish to give such situations. And no, I'm not a socialist, communist or any other sort of ist - I spent time in the Soviet Union in its dying years and find that kind of regime just as repugnant as fascism.

National Insurance is a plain old simple income tax - other countries don't bother with silly subterfuges like this but it suits UK politicians of whatever colour to pretend it's different when they are cooking the books at budget time.

Fine, so long as you also ban all other self-interest groups, like the RAC, the AA, the Conservative Party, Labour Party, Lib Dems, BNP, UKIP, Round Table, Chambers of Commerce, the National Trust, RSPCA, NSPCC, Private Members Clubs, the WI, the Guilds, the GMC, the Bar Council, etc, etc...

Actually Mussolini only made one train run on time, and that was before he became leader...

http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=3197#3197 (http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=3197#3197)

But we wouldnt all do it at the same time,

It is the mass withdrawal that is the issue

All you do is give FGW et al bad press - its us that suffer - and when you go back to work, I have no choice but to use FGW

I would love to see  mass walk out of project managers in SAP - we'd all be replaced in a week - so we dont

I see no reason why a train driver has more protection than we do when you get better conditions etc

You are only worth what you can deliver - if you are not worth top conditions, you dont get paid it - thats life

Everyone should have equal opportunity but not everyone is equal or should be rewARDED AS SUCH

Note - I was within two weeks of being out of work but proved myself worthy of an extension - I managed to secure myself work until the end of next year.

So im not talking from an ivory tower - how many of you work with two weeks notice over your head - if you are lucky!

If you were in a decent union you probably wouldn't have to...

No, because then it might look like you were a union...


Are there really that many people out there with the necessary skills, available at the drop of a hat? Hmm.

And whether you like it or not, you are enjoying the benefits of union muscle every time you set foot on an FGW train, because the unions' threat of industrial action at the turn of 2007-8 and the refusal to work on rest days around Christmas and New Year were factors in persuading the company to recruit extra drivers and conductors to ensure its trains actually ran.

And the drivers get good pay and conditions precisely because of Aslef union officials being skillful at exploiting the break-up of BR into lots of operators, who all need drivers to run their trains and don't want to lose them to someone else. I think that's what's known as market forces, not socialism.

I've got absolutely no problem with people being in a union and I have no problem with unions like RMT or ASLEF fighting, with strikes if neccessary,  for better pay and conditions for their workers.  That is, after all, what they are there for.   

I do however think that their is a downside to the behaviour of some of the more powerful unions which I think gives them a bad name and that is the promotion of a lack of job flexibility and the encouragement of an "its not my job to do that" attitude.   This makes things like modernisation and increases in productivity and efficiency tortuously difficult.   

When you hear about the NUT instructing teachers to refuse to show flexibility in covering other peoples classes to allow school trips to go ahead. or the endless argumenst that the rail unions have over where the driver or the guard should unlock the doors it gets me cross.  If Arriva XC guards are asked to tidy up their trains when they have time then why should they have a problem with this?  It is not like they are taking a pay cut or having to work longer hours.  It is the sort of job that a good proportion of staff would be doing anyway without being asked.  Your employer is essentailly buying your time and it seems reasonable that you should have a say over that price, but what they choose to do with your time (so long as it isn't dangerous or illegal etc) is largely up to them isn't it not?

The argument for or against Unionism is as old as Unionism itself. I can see both sides of the story - as a Union member myself I am grateful of the legal support against FGW that is offered in case I ever find myself needing it. In over 20 years membership of two different Unions, I was never been required to take a single days worth of industrial action.

The argument about proving your worth for a pay increase is a difficult one. FallenAngel and others may have to work bloody hard to fight for a contract extension, or to get a decent pay rise or promotion - the same way my g/f does in her similar field of work - but how on earth do you quantify the criteria under which a train driver (for example) is judged and therefore paid? The only performance related issue, which could easily be measured and which they can directly affect, is their actual driving. They drive trains, to the standards set out by company policies. Yes, a driver could hammer the hell out of a trip in order to make up a couple of minutes delay, but only to be further delayed by circumstances out of their control. To ask FallenAngel and others a question, how would you suggest that drivers pay should be determined under your 'Everyone should have equal opportunity but not everyone is equal or should be rewarded as such' argument?

If you are of the opinion that all staff in the same public sector jobs (or quasi public sector in the case of the railways) should be paid the same money, then if there were no Unions then FGW (and the other TOC's) would be able to offer rudimentary pay increases with no hassles. Longer shifts, shorter breaks, and more intensive work could (and probably would) lead to a less safe environment for everyone. Yes, many railway employees are well paid, but many are not - the wage a gateline member gets or a despatcher is particularly poor. If a driver was being paid much less than they are now, you would not encourage the same (mostly) professional quality staff that you currently get.

However, there are certain things about the Union that I don't agree with. They do need to modernise badly. Too many Union representatives and members are simply in it to be as bloody awkward to every facet of change as possible. Too many rules within the union are so hopelessly out of date. General Secretaries and other senior members live in a bygone age where (to the majority of the outside world) whenever they make a public appearance they just look like idiots and as a result give the whole movement a bad name. A small percentage of staff use the Union to get away with being as bone-idle and disruptive as possible, yet those who go out of their way to do a hard days work for good money get nothing more in their pay-packet. Too many staff who really should be shown the door (i.e. constantly on the sick list for no good reason) are protected by the Unions and keep their jobs. And, I believe, industrial action is taken too quickly - but it is the most effective way to hurt the company and stop them from introducing changes to the detriment of its employees - this is proven by the number of times industrial action is called off due to a 'last minute change of heart' from the employer before it actually affects the workforce.

As with so many of the arguments and discussions on here, there is no black and there is no white. It's a shame so many posters, whatever the argument, always seems to think there is!

Very eloquently put II. I was going to drop a post in here along the same lines but you've elegantly covered everything that I was going to say and much more besides!

Oh. I think I'll take my Mussolini poster down... :'(

Just out of interest Flamingo, with regard to your statement regarding paying fares; I am sure you do, but it nevertheless prompts me to ask if the following statement (made over a year ago now, as you can see) from Vacman regarding FGW staff is no longer true?

I have genuine reasons for asking this, to do with my own staff and the soon to be reduced package of extras the nature of their job entitles them to - so please don't interpret it as my quoting you out of context or being argumentative. Quite the opposite in fact!

Put it on a lamppost  ;D

Inconsistency is a wonderul human trait, Flamingo. I could probably find some contradictions in your posts if I looked hard enough. In fact I think I'll start looking now......um, no I won't....er, yes I will.

Oh, and one of the other more interesting things about these forums is looking at how, no matter what the topic, some posters will always try and continue an old arguement about Railcards......

As far as im aware - none of them (with the exception of the gubbermint) are in the habit of grinding parts of the country to a halt in their own self interest

I've heard the WI can be quite militant  ;D

Yes - they are called indian fast track visas and offshoring.  


Is that not supply and demand?  If you need to have a union there must be potential oversupply or drivers would get what they ask.

As for the xmas New YEar thing - if that hadnt of happened - suspect the franchise would have gone tits up due to poor performance and bad publicity.  The end game would have been the same.  

You didnt have to mention it - was bloody obvious to whit you were referring.  Now if you can find another example to which your comments:

"To extrapolate from that, although they wish to make illegal certain methods of negotiation that may cause inconvenience to them, they are blatant about their forward planning to take actions to obtain fraudulent discounts. Both the arrogance and hypocrisy of this is breathtaking."

Bearing in mind im clear on my stand on both - please supply in which case I'll retract my post. 

My stand is - and I use myself often as an illustration - any job where the service is a public one and its not just the employer or related business that are affected, should not be allowed to strike.

that includes police, NHS, staff, railways, post office etc etc - its not joe public who your gripe is with so do not make them suffer.  Ironically, the minute these services go on strike, public support for their cause often decreases. 

I do not agree with unionism at all but I abhor strike action in public services

I'm getting concerned that some of the posts on this thread are erring towards personal digs and attacks ... can I suggest that everyone posting has a careful look at future posts they make and bear in mind that we ask all members not to indulge in such things - be it in their posts, or in their profiles or signatures.

Unionisation is always going to cause strong views.  A personal thought, somewhat midstream, is that it's as necessary for a large workforce to be organised for collective negotiation just as it's necessary for parlimentarians to be organised in some way (such as the party system). Otherwise, organisation of businesses and country would be impractically difficult. And in both cases, where any one element becomes dominant, there is the risk of the checks and balanced being lost.

I heartily concur with this part of your post InIn. Just what the hell were Bob Crow and the RMT doing pitching up at the Vestas factory dispute on the Isle Of Wight? What on earth has wind turbine production got to do with the Rail, Maritime and Transport Union? This kind of protest is reminiscent of the days of 'flying pickets' during the Miner's Strike. Bob Crow is, in my opinion, using his high public profile to stick his nose in to disputes where he has no jurisdiction.
Mr Crow, stick to representing those who work on trains, boats and buses. That's what your union members pay their subs for.

What the RMT were doing was representing their members who worked for Vestas.

I have no idea why the RMT represents them, but it does - lots of unions represent all sorts of people you might not expect, for example, the rugby league players' association is part of the GMB - so no flying pickets to be seen in East Cowes.

To be fair, willc has a point - the GMB can pack quite a hefty punch, too: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/boxing-fighters-join-the-gmb-652015.html

 ;)

At the risk of going off topic I feel I have to point out that the RMT does now represent some of the Vestas workforce. However this was not the case prior to the occupation of the site on 20th July.

Those few workers who were in a union before 20 July were in the Unite union. Most had only joined in the preceeding few weeks, hoping for the help of a union in the battle to stop the factory closing. Probably a bit to late for effective action to be organised; with hindsight the workers may have joined a union earlier. Why they were not in a union from the opening of the factory is maybe something that never occured to them.

It would appear that Unite were uninterested in being associated with the occupation, perhaps because it was illegal. The RMT had no such qualms and branch members from Portsmouth, whose usual sphere of influence are the Portsmouth-Ryde ferry workers, travelled to Newport IOW and began recruiting members and organising commitees amongst the Vestas workforce who were protesting outside the factory gates. The RMT supplied lawyers to fight the eviction of the illegal occupiers, who only managed to get a small extension to the possession order on a legal technicality.

Bob Crow's explanation as to why the RMT got involved was that it represented a few divers who put the turbines in the sea, so, by extension, it should represent those who made the turbine blades! Ignoring the fact that Vestas UK was only producing on-shore turbine blades. Perhaps I should've joined the RMT when I worked in the catering trade because it may have represented a few of the merchant seamen responsible for shipping in exotic ingredients!

The sit-in was a major news story and it appears that Commie Bob and his cronies saw an opportunity to get some publicity for the RMT; perhaps the current rail strikes and actions are not high-profile enough for Mr Crow, or, more likely, not getting wider public support.

So, I stand by my 'flying pickets' comment and re-iterate that Bob Crow et al should concentrate on representing RAIL, MARITIME, and TRANSPORT workers.

So the GMB should stick to representing municipal workers and boilermakers? Not sure the latter category is a good prospect these days.

Did you demand that the old National Union of Railwaymen should stop representing bus drivers, which it did, before the merger that created the RMT? Thought not.

And who should Unite represent? Footballers at clubs with United in their name?

There seem to be an awful lot of people here who advocate hardy individualism and not being told what to do by other people, yet who are very keen to tell unions and their members what they should and shouldn't do.

Heard this evening from an AXC train manager that the current industrial action has been suspended. I have looked at rmt.org.uk and there is, as yet, nothing there confirming this. Interestingly the TM I spoke to said the dispute was about pay rises linked to RPI rather than issues around whether they should or should not collect litter. This TM told me that litter collecting was already in her contract and had been for some time. Didn't ask her about toilets though!

I still think it is wrong that Sunday trains only run because of the goodwill of the staff. The RMT can use this 'goodwill' no matter what the dispute, holding the TOC, and by extension, its passengers to ransom. The TOC doesn't want to run the risk of mass cancellations on a Sunday which affect its Public Performance Measure. The TOC gets all the bad publicity when RMT use such tactics. It's time that management, unions and employees sat down, across all TOCs, and thrashed out a deal to include Sundays in contract terms.

This thread got rather off topic - a somewhat heated discussion - and I have split those posts off and they can be read (with my comments) by regular members here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5176.0

This thread has been locked overnight, but I will reopen it as soon as I have posted here ... with a request to keep it on topic, please.

Thanks!

 As far as I am aware Sundays are rostered for Railway staff.

 They are obliged to work them and find their own cover if they want the day off.
 I suppose the problem arises when the TM/Driver has leave.

 Strange how for years under BR Sundays was always the 'carrot' railway managers used to bribe you with, mainly because the basic pay was so low.
 
 
 

In BR days Sundays were rostered outside the standard week.  In my personal experience the roster clerk woud attempt to cover any Sundays "thrown-in" rather than providing your own cover, and if he/she couldn't you were expected to work - I seem to recall this being backed up by either a court case or an employment tribunal when someone got religion.
;
Somewhere along the line at some TOCs they have become voluntary, presumably the HR people employed by the bus bandits failed to see that the substantial increases to basic rates post-privatisation  meant that staff no longer relied on the Sunday pay.

It is still a legal grey area.  EMT took ASLEF to court when all their drivers decided at the same time not to work a particular sunday in May this year.  It seems the court did not believe that suddenly all the drivers wanted the same day off and it was unofficial action so ASLEF had to write to its members to ask them to go to work !

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/100012/100039/113020/sunday_working_on_east_midlands_trains/

Welcome to the forum Mikestone.. And thanks for the info.. :)

The way we have it at ScotRail is that you should work your own Sunday if not covered by someone else wishing to work it. However any action taken against someone not wishing to work their Sunday will be minimal as it is outside of the 35 hour week and effectively enforced overtime.

Problem is at any one time there will be several staff on annual leave which will leave some turns uncovered.  Added to this is that if the booked turn is altered significantly in content, or at all in the book on and off times then the driver can refuse to work the altered turn and will book on 'as required' and work trains as directed as long as the are within the original hours and that break times are suitable for the turn length. Given that weekendsare rife with engineering work alterations and diversions along with less staff on duty it can lead to more cancellations and short runnings.

Certain staff based at stations in an area relief role have slightly differently worded contracts, requiring them to work their Sundays

35 hour week  :o

im 48 if im very very very lucky