Great Western Coffee Shop

A little bit of history (mostly repeated from elsewhere on the forum / odd snippets in threads on other subjects).

1. There is something of a stock shortage of reasonable d.m.u.s around the UK, and those which are available are very expensive to hire.  Talking to very high up folks (authoritative source), what units are available within a franchise to run extra services tend to go to the local authority bidder who'll give the best profit, rather than there being enough units to cover all good business cases.

2. The Lymington branch in Hampshire is an electric line, currently run using refurbished, heritage, electric stock by SWT.  It seems only very recently that the refurbs were done and "a lot of money spent on making it into a heritage line" ... here's the poster that's currently on display at Lymington Town station:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/slam8.jpg)

Now that says that the use of the old stock, which I'll refer to as 'slammers', will safeguard the line for many years to come ... yet the MD of SWT has now announced that they'll be replaced from next May, and by a scarse resource - a class 158 unit of exactly the type as SWT have been hiring to First through this summer to let them have enough stock to meet their committments.   The SWT unit has been running one of only two northbound TransWilts journeys ...

Here is the report of Stewart Palmer's  comments:


I have some questions / thoughts:

1. Does the cost analysis that SWT have done take into consideration the loss of national rail resource of (realistically) one diagram per day?

2. Is there a disproportionate cost 'hit' on SWT caused by penalties charged for late running / underperforming on the line if they've been having reliability problems?

3. I know there's a problem with spares (but I think that could be more advised than actual - both units were in service on successive days this week), but is the real issue that the TOC would rather simplify / have as few stock types as practical too look after and wants rid of the two unit 'special'

4. What do the local communities and businesses mentioned in the "this is great - a heritage line" poster think?   Could this change of heart by SWT be considered a slap in their face, or are they in favour?

Not my area of the country / expertise, so I'm only asking the questions.   But it is of concern; it seems peverse to take an electric line and run a diesel on it, to withdraw loved and usable stock when doing so increases a shortage that effects other lines such as one I would like to see that 158 serve, and to use cost justification to claim that it's better value to run a unit for which 250,000 per annum (or so) will have to be paid as hire charges, rather than a unit that is already owned outright.

I do know, as it happens, a little about what the locals think.  I was in Lymington for two days last week, working with people who are business people there and regular users of the line.   They feel it is an about face, and can't understand it - they can't provide good answers to my questions; the trains are loved, they bring people to the town who wouldn't come if it was just a 158. "Waste of money doing the refurb, then" was one comment I heard ... and I heard mutterings about betrayal of promises too.  Does anyone have any further light to shed?

My pictures .. taken from a ride the other evening:

http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers.html
http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers2.html
http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers3.html

And a sample ... 3CIG 1497 at Lymington Town

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/slam2.jpg)

I know nothing of the area or the line, but given that the purchase of the slam door trains was part of a policy of safeguarding the future of the line, their replacement would appear to be a new policy of not safeguarding the future of the line.... so I suspect they either want to be rid of it completely, or get a subsidy from somewhere for running costs. Otherwise they will run it down to get passenger numbers to drop to the point where they can renegotiate the franchise to a Melksham-style token service.

I'm not having a go at SWT, they have a business to run and their priority is their shareholders, not the people of Lymington.

The Lymington line isn't the only route where this happens though, it's just the highest profile amongst enthusiasts. There are a number of other SWT diesel units diagrammed daily, mainly peak time extras, that ought to be EMUs in an ideal world. Certainly if enough new EMUs were provided for SWT, they could potentially release half a dozen or more 158/159s. 

They might have major diagramming changes planned in December for the Exeter hourly service, but somehow I doubt it. I suspect the bottom line is that when SWT wanted to provide additional capacity on the SWML generally, DMUs were all they were allowed to lease.

Paul

Which services are these used on?   

Thanks Paul and (like John R) I would be interested to learn which those others are.

I think the Lymington case is potentially a little different though, because SWT does have electric trains which it can use on that line (and no other line afaik), so it's not a question of the DfT not allowing them any electrics on lease.  The already have the electrics ... they bought them, they own them, don't they?

I haven't got actual diagrams for the current period, but here are some typical services. Collectively, SWT refer to them as 'Hampshire Locals'

0500 Portsmouth Hbr - Basingstoke 6.159
0655 Basingstoke - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
0702 Eastleigh -Portsmouth Hbr 2.158
0751 Southampton Ctrl - Portsmouth Hbr 3.159
0805 Portsmouth Hbr - Basingstoke 2.158
0933 Portsmouth Hbr - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
1624 Basingstoke - Portsmouth Hbr 6.159
1638 Winchester - Totton 2.158
1703 Portsmouth Hbr - Fareham 2.158
1724 Basingstoke - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
1817 Southampton Ctrl - Winchester 2.158
1905 Winchester - Southampton Ctrl 2.158
0030 Eastleigh - Portsmouth Hbr 2 158

1703/0030 is the whole diagram for that unit, it runs ECS from Salisbury to Portsmouth, and sits in Eastleigh yard all evening...

Paul

Thanks. Puts the use of a 158 on the Lymington branch into context. It does appear that something isn't quite right here, especially since there are electic trains coming available. (OK, not obviously suited to SWT, but is there any reason why ex Overground 313s could not be used on one or two suburban lines - after all 508 stock worked the area when first built, before being banished to Merseyside?)

   

Whilst the loss of the slammers is perhaps negative, it is the use of DMUs that annoys me.

Surely the "spares" argument could be solved by only running one slammer and using the other for spares.

The use of some spare Wessex Electrics somewhere could free up some 450s for the branch.

Or the LO units which are being replaced currently. What's happening to them?

Or old LU stock?

That 158 could be used on Transwilts, or to remove overcrowding on Liverpool - Norwich trains or ......

All the Wessies are now allocated to Southern - there are no spares at Eastleigh anymore.
AIUI most of the LO 313s are already allocated to Southern (to allow 10 car inner suburban services) and a few to FCC (for GN Moorgate service strengthening) and the 3 LO 508s are supposedly going to Merseyrail.

It's always seemed to me that SWT were just 'in the right place at the right time' to corner the market in 158s when they became available - presumably they could let some go if DfT proposed a 'suitable business case' - I think that's the right term ::)

Paul

And they are all sitting around doing nothing in sidings at Brighton and Hove! Why do SN need all of these? (unless they are replacing 377s with Wessex Electrics on Brighton ML services).

No, they're not all sitting around in sidings doing nothing - 17 are in the active fleet and the rest are all slated for refurbishment. According to Modern Railways (I think?) a leasing company's cunning plan to get SWT some extra electric stock involves Southern using all the 442s for Gatwick and Brighton work, freeing up the eight Gatwick Express class 460s, which would then be broken up to turn their 458 cousins into five-car sets and create some shortened 460s as well, which SWT would take on. Presumably all this will take a while to organise (December next year?) if it's a serious propostion, but you may just find that an electric set is available for Lymington as a result.

It's all very well banging on about it but SWT is already paying for the DMU. Why would they want to take on 508s, which would cost them extra in lease fees and be just as non-standard for them operationally as the slam-door sets?

I don't remember anyone getting so exercised on here about the former Wolverhampton-Walsall service, which was DMUs on a route that was entirely electrified except for the north to east curve at Bescot.

SWT's requirement is for 140 additional vehicles for the full 10 car suburban services, gradually building up in the years 2012-14 The 460 fleet can provide a minority of that requirement, and is apparently with Southern until at least mid 2011. That assumes all the 442s will be updated by then, which could easily happen. But from what they are suggesting about remodelling the 460s, I'd expect a fairly long period in the works, around 2 years maybe?  Then even with the 460s, there still needs to be another 90 or so vehicles, because somehow 90 455s also need to be effectively lengthened by one car each. How that is achieved remains a mystery, although a 10 car formation (3+4+3) has been run as a test, relocating trailers doesn't really help, as running 5+5 sets is seriously underpowered...

Can't really see any early reduction in DMU usage therefore.

Paul

They were a few weeks back! ;) Unless they are being refurbed while they sit in the sidings...

Anyway your post confirms what I expected, BML trains will be Wessex Electrics (good, I like 377s a lot, but I'd expect a lot more for the BML, esp in First Class!)

Willc, the reason the Walsall to Wolverhampton is DMU operated is because they once ran to Wellington. This got cut to one train a day, then none.

Paul, I really appreciate your inputs / listing of units that are diesel but running electric line services - looks like it could be up to 3 x 159 and 2 x 158 in the late afternoon, rather fewer in the morning.   And for your explanations of "why".


I think I am one getting a little 'exercised' here  ;) ... but I am / was doing so concerning Lymington, where there are already electric trains doing the job, and trains which SWT own to boot. 

Using a small buffer of diesel trains to run electric line services (any buffering has to work that way - you can't run an electric train on a diesel line!) is fair enough - I was asking a corrollary question there as I didn't know the situation on the Hampshire locals.  And that applies on Walsall / Wolverhapmton (to a lesser degree because it isn't fully electrified) and even on the East Coast main line and some of the Virgin services (hang on - this is no SMALL buffer .... it's starting to look like a serious electric train shortage!)

Exercised on Lymington?  Yes - it's not buffering.   It's removal of two trains / one diagram from the network, and trains that were placed there with a great fanfare to save the line.


Yep, one does wonder why the change of heart, to what looks like a more expensive solution, one which appears to kick the local stakeholders in the face, and one which reduces (yes, by just one more) the precious stock of diesel trains.   Did SWT miscalculate when they "went heritage", or did they always intend it to be just short term thing, whether or not they told people its interim nature?

SWT's current dispensation to use Mark 1 stock expires March 2013, so there always was a chop date. Not sure if it was ever widely publicised though.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1247 (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1247)

A check of a few of the other operators listed seems to have all mainline registered Mark 1 stock end dated together, I haven't seen anything yet about another stay of execution for the railtour operators, but it may be there somewhere.

Paul

I'm sure the 2013 deadline could b extended. What are heritage railways with Mark 1 stock and older doing?

Perhaps apply for a light rail permit. (unless that limits the trains to 25 mph)

Not sure if it was 'widely' publicised, but I don't think that it was being masked away at all ... suffieciently know for it to have come to my attention a while back.  Which is why it's a bit of a surprise to see them being cut three years early.

There are also cutoffs on the 125s, 142s and 143s in (? forget exact date ?) ten years time.

Just a reminder (and I did consider starting a new topic, but remembered that this branch had appeared in a topic a number of months ago), that this is the last week of the slam-door stock on this line. I took the opportunity to ride the line today. The trains I caught (1229 ex Brockenhurst and 1416 ex Lymington Town), were lightly loaded and I would say half the pax were those doing what I was doing, and just riding the rare unit. On Saturday evening, a number of events have been lined up to mark the end of the slamdoor sets. So with warm weather forecast, what better excuse is there than to take a trip to the New Forest and Hampshire coast? Incidentally, the waiting room at Lymington Town station has an interesting exhibition of old photos and information on the branch line; it's worth getting to the station well ahead of the train and spend time to enjoy those items.   

Thanks for posting that, Steve!  ;)

The Lymington 158 Scandal is IMHO another reflection of privatisation failure.

There was supposed to be a "market" in train leases - the price depending on demand.

1. Why aren't dmu's going up in price?

2. In BR days, capital stock was written off over 10 years (the equivalent of a lease charge). After this the stock was free of capital charges and so made cascading such as for electrification, a useful option.

3. The BR/SR 1967 stock like its predecessors, had very few moving parts, so apart from brake blocks, tyres and bearings, and t. motors, needed little maintenance (just as well).

The CIG's were a very civilised way to travel.

OTC

Well, not quite. They needed frequent hands-on maintenance to keep them at their best and items such as camshafts and current limit relays weren't the easiest to set up, maintain and calibrate. Easy enough when spare parts were plentiful, labour relatively cheap and quite a few engineering areas around that could handle them. The Lymington CIGs are due heavy exams and that's probably why they're being phased out now. Even simple things like the doors needed a fair bit of TLC to keep them problem-free (and why the Lymi CIGs needed to be sent out on regular turning turns).

Thanks for your comments, MrC - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :)

Welcome too, Mr C.

You're quite right about the PCM units and the doors, of course.

Both planned and tweaking maintenance of only two units, having 50 year old technology, would be unwelcome to a modern depot as it would involve odd (for today) skills and resources. Perhaps a niche provider, such as Knights at Eastleigh, might be up to it, although they did get cold feet with 1881.

SWT did achieve great things with these emu's, with reliabilities well in excess of the most modern (and German) stock.

Regards,

OTC

I think one of the other things that scuppered the Lymington CIGs was the downgrading of Bournemouth Depot when the 442s left, leaving Wimbledon as the only other place for most maintenance.

From RailwayWorld . net (https://railwayworld.net/2018/08/13/lymington-branch-then-and-now/#more-2243)


and

Linda, The Lymington Flyer (https://www.chinnorrailway.co.uk/article.php/17/1198-linda-the-lymington-flyer) is currently housed on our railway at Chinnor.  She gets an outing on our unelectrified railway using our air-braked diesel locomotives. I am sure the owners would love to run her up and down her former haunt as nature intended - using an energised third rail  :)

I am confused Grahame - or just missing your point.  Please could you expand.

BTW: Is that your recently severed locks in your avurtar?