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Title: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 07, 2009, 00:34:20 From the Worcester News (http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/4580052.Lack_of_passengers_brings_cut_to_service/):
Quote Rail services between Worcester, Cheltenham and Gloucester are to be cut by a third after one of the line^s two train operators withdrew its services. London Midland has revealed it will stop operating along the Worcester to Gloucester line from mid-December. It says that a lack of passengers means that the service is running at a loss. First Great Western will continue to operate services, but London Midland^s withdrawal means that on current time-tabling there would only be one train about every two hours. Responding to an inquiry from your Worcester News, a spokesman for London Midland said: ^From the introduction of our time-table on Sunday, December 13, London Midland will be withdrawing its daytime services running between Gloucester and Worcester Shrub Hill.^ There are currently 13 trains each day running from Worcester to Gloucester, through Ashchurch-for-Tewksbury and Cheltenham ^ and 14 back. London Midland^s withdrawal means that from December, there will only be nine in each direction. The Worcester to Gloucester services have never been part of the operator^s core contract and the firm said it introduced them last year to fill the gaps between First Great Western trains and to ensure that passengers had a regular service. The hope was that this would encourage more people to use the service. London Midland said in a statement that its policy has not proved successful because each 120-seat train is only used by an average of just 16 passengers. The spokesman said: ^The withdrawn services are not funded by the Department for Transport or other funders and they were not included in the London Midland franchise. We introduced them in last year^s service in the belief that providing a standard pattern of service throughout the day between London Midland and First Great Western services would encourage passenger growth. But after a year in operation these services are still operating with very low numbers of passengers and as such are making a loss. We regret having to withdraw these services and would be happy to reinstate them if long-term funding can be found.^ The nine services to be withdrawn in December will be the 9.56am, 12.15pm, 2.16pm and 4.16pm from Worcester, and the 11.13am, 1.16pm, 3.13pm, 5.10pm and 7.10pm from Gloucester. A spokesperson for First Great Western said it has no plans to reduce its services along the line. She said: ^This is the first we^ve heard of this but it^s not a well-used line.^ Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: willc on September 07, 2009, 11:13:52 A shame, but not entirely surprising given the way Worcester-Cheltenham-Gloucester has been treated by the rail industry, both by BR and under privatisation, with sparse, erratic services for many years, most importantly the absence of morning peak services in either direction reaching their destination just before 9am, even with the extra services in the past year, which didn't exactly do much for the prospects of success.
Ashchurch's services have fluctuated so much over the years that it's no wonder no-one in the Tewkesbury area trusts the railway and XC have abandoned any pretence of serving Worcester. Against that sort of backdrop, just putting the trains on for a year - and still lacking a proper morning peak service - what did they expect to happen? Was there any sort of co-ordinated promotion? Given the FGW spokesman's comment, was there any co-operation between the two operators, full stop? Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on September 07, 2009, 19:33:20 Ok. FGW currently terminate one northbound train every two hours at Gloucester.
LM currently terminate one southbound train every two hours at Gloucester. Joining these two up* (combing with FGW's current through trains) would provide an HOURLY WORCESTER BRISTOL SERVICE which would be used. Also giving Ashchurch a decent service between the two. Knowing that there was a good hourly service to Cheltenham would also encourage Worcestershire passengers to change at Cheltenham onto Southbound XC services, not New Street. I feel that a lack of vision and cooperation has put paid to a route who's potential is still unlocked. *Preferably FGW would operate, although I realise that the stock would be hard to find - even if LM managed to magic some to do the train. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: John R on September 07, 2009, 20:33:46 So there will be one spare unit from December? Can anyone think of a route that could usefully use it, and which maybe has been cited in a recent RUS as having an extremely positive BCR of 2.8 and an NPV of ^43m.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on September 07, 2009, 20:41:14 Hopefully, LM will re-start the Walsall to Woverhampton service which should NOT have been axed.
Or replace that Or lengthen peak Worcester - New Street trains further with 100 mph stock instead of 75 mph. Sorry guys, LM will find a use for the unit! Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Steve Bray on September 07, 2009, 23:15:11 I always felt that with a bit of juggling, and withdrawing the Worcester/Great Malvern journeys, that FGW could operate an hourly Bristol to Worcester service.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Not from Brighton on September 07, 2009, 23:22:23 Yes, I've always felt that extending the Bristol service to Great Malvern serves little purpose other than to make the timetables erratic and introduce delays. I'm sure the service would be better provided by extensions to LM Stourbridge services.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: willc on September 08, 2009, 00:52:57 Quote Or replace that bus PPM with a proper train on the Stourbridge branch. Why on earth would you do that? The shuttle, crawling along for less than a mile, was always a total waste of a main line train. Quote Knowing that there was a good hourly service to Cheltenham There is one now, just not until after 9am - and it's that hole in the morning peak that's the fundamental flaw. And you can't "juggle" up any extra FGW stock because it's desperately needed to work trains around Bristol in the morning peak. See the Great Western RUS on what's happening to loadings there if you don't believe me. Quote Yes, I've always felt that extending the Bristol service to Great Malvern serves little purpose other than to make the timetables erratic and introduce delays. One purpose it serves is to get the trains into the centre of Worcester (ie Foregate St) and out quickly, given the utterly inadequate track layout in the Worcester area, which is handling far, far more trains than the people who created it ever envisaged. If you're not going to turn back at (poorly located) Shrub Hilll, don't want a train blocking a platform at Foregate St while you turn back there, or the hassle of reversing at Henwick, you might just as well go up to Malvern and set back there. LM has already increased its Malvern service by going hourly Birmingham-Hereford last December. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on September 08, 2009, 14:01:39 I think an hourly Great Malvern to Bristol service, using some stock pinched from LM should be possible. It requires no new paths in the Bristol area.
And Willc, I agree that there is a good service Southbound (after 9), but coming back it is effectively a 2 hourly service due to the timetable. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: willc on September 08, 2009, 17:42:05 I think an hourly Great Malvern to Bristol service, using some stock pinched from LM should be possible. It requires no new paths in the Bristol area. And Willc, I agree that there is a good service Southbound (after 9), but coming back it is effectively a 2 hourly service due to the timetable. But with the 172s running late, how exactly do you 'pinch' any LM DMUs, which are all already destined for Bristol, the North of england, etc - and squeeze anything else through Worcester? Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Buckham on September 10, 2009, 07:51:21 Commuting from Ashchurch to Bristol just doesn't work with the current timetable. I drive past Ashchurch every day to an office 5 mins walk from Bristol Parkway. There is a 7.25 train to Bristol, and a 17.10 back, but if you miss that it's a wait until 18.40 - far too long a gap to risk the train. I was rather hoping the Dec timetable might show some improvement, but reading this thread it sounds highly unlikely. :(
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on September 10, 2009, 17:51:57 It seems that Ashchurch is cursed.
It has been let down by Central Trains, Cross Country, London Midland and First Great Western. Again, an untapped market is abandoned, as the people of Tewkesbury drive onto the M5... Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 11, 2009, 16:33:17 Quote The spokesman said: ^The withdrawn services are not funded by the Department for Transport or other funders and they were not included in the London Midland franchise. We introduced them in last year^s service in the belief that providing a standard pattern of service throughout the day between London Midland and First Great Western services would encourage passenger growth. But after a year in operation these services are still operating with very low numbers of passengers and as such are making a loss. We regret having to withdraw these services and would be happy to reinstate them if long-term funding can be found.^ The nine services to be withdrawn in December will be the 9.56am, 12.15pm, 2.16pm and 4.16pm from Worcester, and the 11.13am, 1.16pm, 3.13pm, 5.10pm and 7.10pm from Gloucester. The combined departures from Shrub Hill are currently at 07:09, 09:00, 09:56, 11:06, 12:15, 13:06, 14:13, 15:06, 16:01, 17:06, 19:06, 21:31 and 22:32, returning from Gloucester at 06:01, 07:15, 09:38, 11:13, 11:36, 13:16, 13:38, 15:13, 15:37, 17:10, 17:38, 19:10, 19:38, 21:34 and 22:54. If "a London Midland spokesman" thinks that that constitutes a "standard pattern of service", then this is a new use of the word "standard". Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 11, 2009, 16:35:21 Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, Buckham! :)
I'm sorry to see that your Ashchurch commute by train is so unviable - and that there seems to be no prospect of that situation being improved in the short term. :( Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Buckham on September 18, 2009, 21:56:17 So yesterday I tried the commute from Ashchurch to BPW and caught the 7.25. First the good news - a Cappucino van at Ashchurch offering breakfast followed by a refurbed 158 with lots of spare tables to work at. The the bad news; got to Yate and the train became more crowded than the Northern Line in rush hour. Now I understand why FGW doesn't have the stock to improve services from Ashchurch in rush hour. They needed four more cars for this train alone.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: John R on September 19, 2009, 16:58:43 Good news is I've read on another forum that this service will have an extra coach added from the December timetable.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Steve Bray on September 19, 2009, 17:33:56 XC has a service that follows this train by a couple of minutes; there's probably a few spare seats on this service. Can they stop at Yate?
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on September 19, 2009, 17:36:09 XC has a service that follows this train by a couple of minutes; there's probably a few spare seats on this service. Can they stop at Yate? No. They are an Intercity operator, with slow enough journey times without adding calls. They also have a clockface timetable,, which would be destroyed by additional stops. And I doubt there are ANY free seats at this time of the morning. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: John R on September 19, 2009, 17:51:46 Although Yatton and Nailsea got a stop for a couple of years.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: devon_metro on September 19, 2009, 17:56:11 XC has a service that follows this train by a couple of minutes; there's probably a few spare seats on this service. Can they stop at Yate? No. They are an Intercity operator, with slow enough journey times without adding calls. They also have a clockface timetable,, which would be destroyed by additional stops. And I doubt there are ANY free seats at this time of the morning. Pardon? Considering the Voyager follows the unit by 1 minute into Bristol Parkway, and the fact that Voyagers are allowed 13 minutes to get to Temple Meads, I see no reason why an extra stop couldn't be facilitated. Plus, i've got a feeling its an HST (don't quote me) so seats wouldn't be an issue. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: laird on September 19, 2009, 21:36:03 The difficulty for Cam & Dursley and Yate is that they accomodate only four coaches so using a five coach voyager is likely to fall foul of a policy or two.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: John R on September 19, 2009, 21:44:26 XC has a service that follows this train by a couple of minutes; there's probably a few spare seats on this service. Can they stop at Yate? No. They are an Intercity operator, with slow enough journey times without adding calls. They also have a clockface timetable,, which would be destroyed by additional stops. And I doubt there are ANY free seats at this time of the morning. Pardon? Considering the Voyager follows the unit by 1 minute into Bristol Parkway, and the fact that Voyagers are allowed 13 minutes to get to Temple Meads, I see no reason why an extra stop couldn't be facilitated. Plus, i've got a feeling its an HST (don't quote me) so seats wouldn't be an issue. If it is an HST then it wouldn't have grandfather rights to stop at a short platform unless the XC sets have SDO. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: devon_metro on September 19, 2009, 23:49:28 XC have SDO at a few door panels, but not all.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: bemmy on September 20, 2009, 18:06:51 The difficulty for Cam & Dursley and Yate is that they accomodate only four coaches so using a five coach voyager is likely to fall foul of a policy or two. This reminds me of an occasion a few years ago in Virgin days when I was taking a Voyager from Penzance to Temple Meads. It was already busy in Cornwall so the Guard announced that they were attaching another set at Plymouth, meaning that passengers (such as me) who were currently sat in seats that were reserved from points up the line could get off at Plymouth and join the extra coaches which were all unreserved.Then as we approached Plymouth he announced that this was in fact not going to be possible, because due to planned engineering works the train was going via the Severn Tunnel and timetabled to stop at "Bristol Patchway" instead of Bristol Parkway (we knew this from his announcements, but it sounded like someone responsible had only just noticed/remembered). The platform wasn't long enough at Patchway for a 9 car train, so the extra set would have to run empty till after the stop at Patchway -- he said it was for reasons of Health and Safety, in case anyone tried to get out where there wasn't a platform. I said to the bloke next to me, "Is this the first day they've run a train service?" However, a couple of minutes before we left Plymouth, he announced that the problem had been solved -- they were going to miss out Patchway, so anyone for Patchway should now change at Temple Meads. Then there was a mad scramble while half the passengers, including those who'd just got on the train, retrieved their luggage and found seats on the empty set. So that's how I learnt that Voyagers don't have SDO. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Not from Brighton on September 21, 2009, 21:46:45 Rocket science it is not... :-[
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: stebbo on November 02, 2009, 21:15:36 Could I just join in the praise for the cappucino van at Ashchurch. My wife takes my daughter to Ashchurch in term time for my daughter to catch the (Great Western) train to school in Worcester and is full of praise for the coffee van (as is my daughter who gets a hot chocolate on Fridays!)
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: anthony215 on April 11, 2010, 16:21:43 I have heard that London Midland are planning on re-instating its services between Worcester & Gloucester with a possible extension to Bristol.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Btline on April 11, 2010, 18:50:56 I have heard that London Midland are planning on re-instating its services between Worcester & Gloucester with a possible extension to Bristol. That would be sensible. The stupid FGW 2 hourly service to Worcester and the sparse LM service to Gloucester could be combined to an hourly Worcester Bristol service, preferably using 100 mph air conditioned stock - no 153s. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: anthony215 on June 16, 2011, 15:11:58 Noted yesterday running between Worcester & Cheltenham Spa according to reports on UK railforums was a London Midland class 170.
A bit strange unless London Midland have suddenly decided to have another go a running a service between Worcester & Gloucester. The only other option i can think of is that are they training some new drivers for the late night fridays only Biirmingham - Gloucester service. Other than that i cannot think of any proper reasons why a London Midland unit would be running that route. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Not from Brighton on June 16, 2011, 20:58:37 To tease potential passengers?
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: bambam on June 17, 2011, 10:47:10 Perhaps they are going to take over the Gloucester-Worcester section of the route, which would be a shame.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: anthony215 on June 17, 2011, 12:57:37 Seems like they are looking at the possibility of running a 2 hourly service from kidderminster - Worcester- Gloucester (Hopefully they will time the services to connect with the FGW trains which start from/terminate at Gloucester)
They dont seem to have put a bid to the DFT yet even though the rumours say it it's supposed to be starting from december. If it does come off, it would make it easier for people from Cardiff to visit Worcester, Kidderminster etc as at the moment you have to travel via Hereford and can be waiting for up to 50 minutes for a connecting train Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: willc on June 18, 2011, 00:07:32 On the basis of the entirely speculative posts elsewhere, I really can't see how you can suggest it "seems like" LM are doing anything.
Having walked away two years ago, on the basis that the traffic wasn't there (in large part because neither they, nor FGW to this day, saw fit to provide trains in the morning peak to make commuting practical), why on earth LM would be interested in returning beats me, especially when the new West Midlands RUS has just poured a very large bucket of cold water all over the idea of beefing up Worcester-Cheltenham-Gloucester services. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: JayMac on June 18, 2011, 00:26:31 I, too am sceptical. Although loadings on the 2 hourly FGW services have noticeably increased in recent years. Perhaps LM have decided that an ORCATs raid is again worthwhile.....
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Lee on June 18, 2011, 10:35:25 What rough figures would you put on this "noticeable increase", bignosemac?
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: paul7575 on June 18, 2011, 12:11:43 On the basis of the entirely speculative posts elsewhere, I really can't see how you can suggest it "seems like" LM are doing anything. Appearance of a 170 could be nothing more than giving that unit a high speed test post repair and that happened to be a suitable available path. Units going off their normal patch is commonplace for all sorts of non-passenger reasons; e.g. I don't think anyone assumed SN were taking over the Weymouth route just because a Gatwick Express 460 turned up there a while ago. That turned out to be a regenerative braking trial and there was a useful gradient in the area... Paul Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: JayMac on June 18, 2011, 14:04:20 What rough figures would you put on this "noticeable increase", bignosemac? Well, I've not been keeping an accurate tally (!) and it's not easy to compare one day with another because of the different rolling stock the route gets (150, 158 2 or 3 car, 153, 150+158, 150+153, 158+153, 153+153....), so I can't really put a figure on it. A recent chat with a conductor was on the topic of loadings. He said that the route could probably do with being hourly. Anecdotally, it's getting harder and harder to bag a forward facing window airline seat on the 0852 from Bristol Parkway! Actually thinking about it, maybe LM doing an ORCATs raid is not a very likely idea. Fares on the route between Gloucester and Worcester are quite cheap. Although why they continue to be set by CrossCountry is a bit of a mystery..... Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: ChrisB on June 21, 2011, 11:36:53 The only other option i can think of is that are they training some new drivers for the late night fridays only Biirmingham - Gloucester service. That's quite possible Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: willc on June 21, 2011, 23:51:07 Not only possible, apparently that's exactly what was going on.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: bambam on June 22, 2011, 13:11:50 Not only possible, apparently that's exactly what was going on. How do you know? Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2011, 13:38:26 He's a journalist - probably asked their Press office! D'oh!
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: bambam on June 23, 2011, 12:42:22 He's a journalist - probably asked their Press office! D'oh! How am I supposed to know he is a journalist? Yes I could look at all his posts on this forum, but that'd be creepy and a waste of time. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2011, 13:34:49 It's really not a big deal to click into his profile & look at recent posts - takes less than a minute.
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: IndustryInsider on June 23, 2011, 17:53:53 Apologies for ChrisB's usual bluntness, bambam. ::)
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: ChrisB on June 23, 2011, 18:06:44 I don't need anyone to be my apologist, thanks.....
Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: Ollie on June 24, 2011, 00:58:03 Even by knowing will is a journalist, I like to know the source of his info rather than just assume he knows cos he's a journalist.
Don't see why you expect bambam to go reading through Will's posts though to find any clue to his background. Title: Re: 'Train operator to reduce its service between Worcester and Gloucester' Post by: ChrisB on June 24, 2011, 05:15:23 Fair 'snuff, apologies to him
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