Great Western Coffee Shop

 Not FGW but I heard that X country are going to revert 2 of their 4 westcountry HSTs diagrams to Voyagers for the winter as they claim the HSTS are too expensive to operate.Can anyone confirm or deny the rumour.Sad if its true although its common knowledge among train crew that some of these HSTs are really needed on some up rather than down services to replace 4 pack Voyagers "sardine cans" from Penzance in particular.Unfortunately I understand they have to be diagrammed to return North at the end of the day for maintenance reasons.

These rumours, and I think it's just that, were about this time last year.

They cannot be used for weekday services to/from Penzance because their diagrams are designed to meet the franchise requirement to provide increased numbers of seats between Leeds and Birmingham southbound in the morning and northbound in the evening. Extended services to Penzance would not allow them to pass through the midlands in both peaks, as has been discussed before. 

I wouldn't even refer to them as 'West Country HSTs' really, the fact they happen to get to Plymouth in the middle of the day is not their primary role.

So it isn't a case of planning the services for the convenience of the depots either, the depots have been chosen to support the required service pattern.

Paul

It's a franchise commitment to have 4 HST diagrams as far as I am aware, so I would be surprised if they are allowed to.  And leasing 5 HSTs and only using 2 will be very expensive unless they can sublease (and who wants to sublease and have to hand them back in May.)

They're not going to shorten Midlands' peak trains! XC put them on these services for a reason.

I've just been taken on by XC at Bournemouth and will be trained up on HSTs even though at present they don't operate on my route, so it could be that they are looking at moving a couple of them, also cross training on 170s too. Hate to think in twelve months time the following appearing on journey check: "This train will run with two coaches instead of ten, this is due to a train fault."!

I fail to see how a XC HST leaving Exeter going north to Leeds at 1823 or 1923 (can't remember which one is the HST) is going to offer any needed increase in capacity by the time it reaches Birmingham ???

1823 Is an HST. Its quite busy from Plymouth, the down working 0632 Dundee - Plymouth is well loaded throughout.

Another "informed source"

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2009/10/xc-and-lm-believe-less-is-more.html

If that's true then it is a disgrace. Yet again, the midlands looses out and more people have to stand.

Huh?

Referring to the chronic overcrowding caused by the 4/5 car voyager introduction.

And the fact that if the trains were to serve London, they would NOT be shortened

Remember this is basically a HALVING of seats on already busy services!

Cross Country continue to fall well short of a good train operator in my opinion as well. I saw the 15:40 from Reading to Edinburgh, now the only direct train from Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington to Scotland on a weekday. It was a 4-car Voyager. It was a Friday afternoon. Need I say more?

Long gone are the days of four or five direct trains a day from the South Coast to either Glasgow, Edingburgh, or even Aberdeen. I know that the remapping of franchises and the DfT may have meant that Arriva had little say in that, but what a dreadful service is now provided to those long distance passengers, and to plonk a 4-car on it is ridiculous!

Indeed Industry Insider, thats why its better to go via London. I just feel sorry for those who can't. Cross Country so often the Cinderella of the Intercity network came good in the early days of Virgin operating it until they gave us Voyagers with aircraft styled interiors.

I'm still interested as to how XC can meet their franchise commitments w.r.t the number of seats.

Good point.

Perhaps it is temporary. Otherwise, what is happening to the HSTs. They'd better not just sit in sidings or get sold abroad. There are places all over the UK that need them.

From what I've seen Crosscountry seem to concentrate their longest trains on Plymouth-Edinburgh, then Bristol-Manchester. They seem to prioritise trains to the south-west over the south coast. This also seems true destination-wise, although obviously it's controlled by the DfT. In the SW, apart from Paignton and Cardiff where you can go anywhere as long as it's Manchester (ignoring the fact that Cardiff has plenty of trains to Birmingham, Stockport and Manchester anyway) you can still go NW or NE. If you live south of Reading it's Manchester again for you.

But not to worry there's a charming part of the Midlands called New Street where you can go almost anywhere. ;)

I just dont see how they will get away with it, as they commited to adding additional seats to their services!

What will happen to their HSTs?  Its crazy, as once they go to another operator, they will never get them back.

DO any diagrams currently run around as doublevoyagers?

Or are they simply reducing the overall number of train services?

There are a few double Voyager diagrams on XC but I don't know the details of when and where.

I suspect that more services re going to be cut, and in turn a few double voyagers will offer the additional capacity?

I have to agree that it's far more enjoyable to go via London. I occasionally travel from York to Falmouth...easily 125 all the way to Truro...except the tube from KX to Padd of course!, but was pleased to see XC 125s, at least to Plymouth, as long as you take a good picnic (no buffet, just trolleys).

So, it'll be back to KX Padd for me. 8)

Incidentally, as a complete aside, I travelled on a a bit of the WCML on Friday...South from Carlisle to Lancaster in a Pendo, Northbound on a Voyager. Am I alone in finding the Pendos incredibly claustrophic?...despite having a window seat. And another thing, the pathetic seat reservation indicators (whither the partially sighted!) show "reserved"...no from/to...useless. Bring back card tickets...rant over.

Best ride and most comfortable journey, by far, a 158 over the glorious S+C, made more enjoyable by the attendance of a gent selling locally made ice-cream...marvellous.

Same trip witnessed a 66 hauling a refurbed FGW buffet car and a class 50. ::)

If I were to be synical and fast foreward 20 or so years I could easily imagine the Dft bean counters by then being tempted for financial and operational reasons to route all FGW services to Devon and Cornwall via Bristol on an electrified GW main line with X country going no further west than Bristol.OTT?maybe.
 Out of curiosity I wonder how a Paddington/Penzance  IEP running via Bristol(Limited or non stop Padd/Bristol) would fare time wise compared to todays HST times via the Berks & Hants given electrification and 125mph running between Bristol and Bridgewater and the likelyhood that Bristol/Taunton would eventually be wired up before the Berks and Hants.(Believe that when it happens)

Such an appealing place. NOT.  ;D

Off putting if you're elderly or have lots of luggage though. Even changing at New Street would mean some people don't make the trip by train. Here's a rough list of stations that are no longer served by direct trains from Dorset, Hampshire, Berkshire and Oxfordshire stations that were under Virgin Trains:

Crewe
Wilmslow
Runcorn
Liverpool
Warrington
Wigan
Preston
Lancaster
Oxenholme
Penrith
Carlisle
Lockerbie
Motherwell
Glasgow
Tamworth
Burton-On-Trent
Northallerton
Inverkeithling
Kirkcaldy
Leuchars
Dundee
Arbroath
Stonehaven
Montrose
and Aberdeen

And from Bournemouth to Basingstoke stations you can add to that list:
Derby
Sheffield
Doncaster
Wakefield
Leeds
York
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle
Berwick-On-Tweed
and Edinburgh

From Berkshire and Oxfordshire stations, several other places such as Chesterfield, Wakefield, Leeds, Berwick and Edinburgh have fewer trains, or only ones that operate at inconvenient times for most people. It's true that if you want to get to Crewe for example, there's a train every 30 minutes from Reading, Oxford, Banbury and Leamington with one change and a reasonable journey time - but part of the benefit of the Cross Country network was that it allowed people (as I say, often elderly) to make that trip by direct train - something that is now not possible. It's a shame.

Won't happen. (in a sensible world)

I believe the 'Great Way Round' via Bristol was faster for HST Devon & Cornwall services than the Berks & Hants when they were introduced in the late 70s or at least there was certainly little difference for fast services. I think the B&H was upgraded quite a lot in the 80s. There were rumours in both the 60s and 80s I think that the B&H was going to be downgraded; it hasn't happened yet despite the bean counters.

Effectively Crosscountry has changed over the last 10 years from a service aimed entirely at the leisure market - direct trains to and from everywhere, but usually 1 or 2 a day, plenty of room but hopelessly unreliable - to one with a fixed interval service on the main routes, with more crowded but more reliable services. It's more aimed now at people who want to travel from say Birmingham to Bristol or Leeds to Newcastle (1-2 hours) than it is for really long-distance travellers.

Out of interest has anyone ever travelled by train from Aberdeen to Penzance - even by HST it must get a tad boring!

I did Plymouth to Aberdeen on a Vomiter in 2007. Never again. To describe my derriere as numb after that journey would be an understatement. And I was in first class. At least in the 'old' days you could stick your head out of a MkIII droplight and get a lungful of Class 43 clag!

I did Exeter to Edinburgh - I had lost the will to live by about Leeds. THere were a lot of other long distance travellers though.

For "maximise revenue" read "minimise losses" - the industry is rife
with suggestions that the franchise is seriously behind targets
offered in its franchise bid (in fact a while back it was expected
that CrossCountry would fail before East Coast). The ITT for the
franchise was very specific about numbers of seats at certain times of
the day on certain routes.. as long as they meet this bit they don't
have to use all the HSTs.
  Regards my comments about "The Great Way Round" we are talking about the Daft/Post Global economic meltdown and not a "sensible world".

I think arriving in Leeds under any circumstances would be enough to lose the will the live...  ;D  (Sorry if that offends lol  :D)

I often see reservations from south of Exeter to Sheffield, not many other places however.

Ha Ha...well as I live in York, I agree with the Leeds comment.
However, now the splendid Leeds Brewery has taken a hold in Tetley-town, you should try the Brewery Tap in New Station Street...a bottles throw from the station!...bit off topic for sure, but can't let the comment slip by! :P

Did Reading Penrith once on the Sussex Scot but it was mark 2s and a duff and routed via Manchester so the duff didn't come off until Preston.

There was a lady doing Brighton Scotland. She had settled into a corner had her reading and sandwiches.

Won't tell it was with a party of teenage girls from the Slough school my wife worked in, many of whom hadn't been on a train before.

Do remember arrivng back at Reading on Sunday evening and getting off the train and smelling the Thames Valley a heavy oily smell quite a contrast after the Lake Distric air.

Tony Miles of Modern Railway (posting in uk.railway) has just asked AXC about this supposed HST withdrawal proposal, and their reply was apparently a flat denial...

Paul

with the double voyagers can they not just remove the 2 middle driving ends wouldnt it be better to have a long distance train in which you can walk all the way threw? could also do something amusing like a 2 car voyager with the 2 spare ends.... how many would this seat? ohh you missed my silly ideas!!! admit it

No good, as the resultant trains would be only six cars - inadequate.

8 cars if it was done using 2 current 5 car voyagers!

But that would completely counter productive! Why not have 8 car (2x4car) services? Then you still have the 5 car trains for use elsewhere.

The idea should be: 8 car Voyagers (2x4) on key Plymouth to Edinburgh trains. The five cars should then be used on Bournemouth trains.

Removing 2 cars from a 5 coach unit would result in the continuation of the status quo of 4 car trains down to South Coast, which is dreadful.

VT should give up 5 voyagers (they seem to have an abundance of them) to allow for 5 HST diagrams and 5 double voyager diagrams. that would solve many problems with overcrowding.

No it shouldn't, you aren't seriously suggesting double staffing them?

XC have enough problems finding staff as it is.

I agree here.  Also people tend to get on the nearest door to them, instead of walking up/down to the end of the platform to get on the front/rear of the train.

Therefore, you would have 1 voyager rammed, and another relatively empty, and once you are on a rammed part of a double voyager, there is no way for you to walk through to the other voyager to get a good seat(s).

Voyagers do need to be bigger and more spacious, but doubling up is not the answer.  This just causes new problems.  We need a diesel equivelant of the Pendili no in the  'west'!!   :-X :D

ordering new carrages for voyagers like they have done to extend pendos must be cheaper than whole new trains? double voyagers are just silly double crew well sometimes..... and like someone else said (sorry i had your name in my head) you end up with 4 sardine tins at the front and 4 lightly loaded coaches with more litter than passengers

Do you really need double staff? The guard and trolley can transfer between units. Remove First Class on one unit, so no need for a second steward. (it never seems to be busy)

im pretty sure a guard does much more than check tickets.....

Yes, and...

Yes, a guard is needed in each voyager.

What if someone falls ill, needs an ambulance.  Or a fight breaks out needing police assisstance etc.

I think it would be pretty risky having a rammed voyager, with no guard to offer assisstance and to patrol the safety of the train AT ALL TIMES!!!

And should the 2 units split in traffic each one has a guard.

What planet do you live in sometimes!!?

What happens on a DOO train them? They don't have guards. In fact my scenario would be better than a DOO train, as there would be one guard.

And why can't trolleys transfer between units at a station stop?

XC don't split trains. Even if they did, the extra guard could simply join at the split point.

Don't get me wrong, the best thing to happen would be for a Voyager lengthening project. But the way things stand, it would be better for some 2x4 voyagers to reduce overcrowding. I am trying to put forward some ideas, there is no need to reply in such a way!

My goodness ... how times change.   In my youth, we had "singles" in slam door coaches - 9 compartments each with six seats in a carriage. Oddly, fights didn't break out very often between the commuters  :P

Lengthening Voyagers is i believe virtually impossible, due to the electronic systems involved

Exactly, it seems that we can't cope these days. Just like we can't tell that a wet floor is slippery. This PC nonsense needs to stop.

'XC don't split trains. Even if they did...'  Is that hedging your bets?

Of course AXC split/join trains en route.  I've been on such trains at both Reading and Newcastle, where only one portion has carried on.  The only mystery about it is there is nothing mentioned in the timetables.  There are a some 2 x 4 car services - I was on one from Bournemouth to Southampton on Friday last.  Again, there is no sensible way of predicting when they run...

Paul

Are you saying OAPs should be potentially subjected to a drunken brawl??

first off regarding electrical systems that is no doubt correct but does anybody know the maximum number of coaches that can be added before it is an issue, second of all, 'doo' is for routes on which there are barriers at all stations and the need for ticket checks onboard is redundant... these services are short in comparison and are a totally different type of service, long distance intercity services are expected to have onboard customer services teams which can be reached with ease in order to assist if needed how can they do this if they are effectively sealed on another train during the journey? you will also notice that trains are now built so that you can walk threw them using double voyagers or any closed end dmu for that matter although due to suitable stock shortages is necessary is ultimately a step backwards on safety service and convenience

It's only impossible because no-one will buy the necessary intermediate coaches. Why else do you think the driving cars are A and F?  What you may have heard is that they cannot be remarshalled quickly without altering the software, but the Meridians have proved that shortening and lengthening is achievable. It isn't that long ago that people were saying that the Hull Trains 222s couldn't possibly multiple with the EMT ones, but it just needed new software.

Paul

Not so - I can think of a number of DOO routes in the London area where there aren't barriers at all the stations, although many more stations are currently in the process of being fitted.  Another example is Chiltern - they are DOO south of Banbury with some ungated stations.  There are many prerequsites for DOO, but I don't believe ticket barriers are one of them.

Paul

Couple of point from XC paper work, where doube voyagers operate, the guard must travel in the rear set, if there is an assisting Train Manager on board then they will travel in the front set, the guard will retain responsibility for train protection and emergency arrangements, along with what people see as the guards job such as train despatch. If there is no assisting guard but a member of catering staff, then the catering staff should travel in the front unit as they are trained in how to stop the train and make a crew call. In the worst case scenario of a double voyager with only one Train Manager and a driver then the guard is qualified to swap units in an emergency at the lineside, whilst I know passengers hate announcements, if they took the time to read the safety notices as requested, then they should know how to stop the train in an emergency.
As regards to Voyager lengths, it's handy to remember that in the West Country HSTs have grandfather rights, 220/221s don't. Here are the general restrictions for Voyager operation:
North of Edinburgh: Only single units can operate, If in multiple the rear unit must be locked out of use unless special working instructions are issued.
South of Edinburgh: A maximum of nine vehicles may be available for passenger use, a number of stations may have platforms that are more restrictive.
South of Birmingham: A maximum of ten vehicles may be available for passenger use, some stations may have platforms that are more restrictive.
West of Exeter: A maximum of eight vehicles may be available for public use. Additional vehicles must be locked out of use unless special working instructions are issued.
Wrest of Plymouth: A maximum of seven vehicles may be available for passenger use. Additional vehicles must be locked out of use unless special working instructions are issued.

No they dont.  What about 142 with no corridor connections.  There is no requirement for a guard to be in each voyager. 

Exactly, so so far there is no need for double staff! So it appears I am well and truly on planet Earth.

Please, expand on your trolley swapping situation, I'd be interested to see any things you've over looked such as extended station dwell due to unloading and reloading of the trolley via ramp.

Two trollies? One cash float?

The current situation  has 4 car undefloor engine DMUs on Plymouth to Edinburgh and 7 car HSTs on Paddington to Oxford.  The solution here should be obvious but as some of the HSTs are owned by FGW and ATP would need to be fitted to the Voyagers it won't be possible.

sorry mate?

The solution to overcrowding on XC.  HSTs on commuter routes out of Paddington seem a bit of a waste and Voyagers would be much more suited to the job.  This solution isn't possible though as FGW own some of the HSTs and so they couldn't just go to XC.  The Voyagers also lack APT so would not be allowed to run at 125 mph.

I'll ask this question again, as I've never actually got an answer for it - perhaps one of the new members knows?

Voyagers are allowed to run on the ATP fitted tracks at 125mph between Didcot and Reading, but at no more than 100mph on the ATP fitted tracks between Reading and Paddington. Why the difference?

Academic now that XC don't use that stretch, but I was told it was simply a question of traffic density on the fasts at the Paddington end of the route.

Paul

True, it's now academic. Though, if that's right,  I find that a rather strange reason - there may well be more trains on the Main lines east of Reading, but not many more, and west of Reading it's mostly 3-aspect signalling which actually gives drivers less distance to brake from a cautionary aspect to a red signal in most places.

Do you actually know anything about the loadings between London, Reading and Oxford? I doubt it, because if you did, you wouldn't be suggesting something quite so daft.

Why would anyone want to swap high-capacity HSTs, where most people stand a chance of getting a seat, for low-capacity trains with enormous toilets? Adelantes were too small for the busiest Oxford peak trains and they have plenty more seats than any sort of Voyager, the inadequate capacity of which is plain to see day after day on peak XC services between Reading, Oxford and Banbury.

The high-capacity HST concept was first proposed by the Strategic Rail Authority precisely to meet the demand between London, Reading and Oxford.

So Oxford to London commuters (a journey of 1 hour) are more important than people traveling from Devon to the North and Scotland then?  It may well be the case at peak times that the HSTs are full but you are almost certainly not going to fill a 7 car HST off peak.  On XC the Voyagers are often packed even off peak.  The last time I went to Birmingham it was full and standing from Taunton.  I doubt anyone would seriously suggest a similar situation of Class 91s and Mark 4 coaches on London to Cambridge. What would FGW have done if the Voyagers had never been ordered by Virgin and no HSTs had been available for cascade onto the Paddington to Oxford route?

FGW would have done nothing...because stock procuremment is nothing to do with the relevant TOC its a matter for the Daft

FGW did outright purchase some HSTs though.

Not quite.....First Rail Holdings purchased 43092/93/94/97/98/122/153/154/155/158/194/198

All passengers are important but it's not FGW's fault that Virgin ordered utterly inadequate trains for CrossCountry, nor is it their job to sort it out.

Oxford-London trains well into the 'off-peak' period are heavily loaded and also need to accommodate Cotswold, Reading and Slough passengers along the way, depending on the particular working. And those commuters on their one-hour trip are probably paying a lot more for their tickets than the average XC passenger does - most of whom, in any case, are not making trips as long as Devon to Scotland. According to DafT when it re-let the franchise, the average XC journey length in 2005-6 was 81 miles and about 50 per cent were less than 50 miles, so little different from a 63.5-mile London-Oxford run.

I am not an expert but Stan Hall (in "on Track for Disaster") reckons 4-aspect signalling places greater demands on drivers, because the double-yelllow aspect is ambigous especially where traffic densities are high and signals often on double-yellow Although the driver ought to slow down at a double yellow on the assuption that the next signal will be single yellow that signal might have steped-up by the time it is reached so you might end up driving long stetches at 80mph on double yellows all the way with the AWS warning going off and being cancelled at each signal but the train never slowing down (and 4-aspect signalling only achieves its aim of allowing more trains to be squeezed in if drivers enter into the spirit of things and drive like that).  You then get a single yellow (acompanied by an identical AWS activation and cancellation) which you need to break for and you can see how that might easier to miss than with 3-aspect signalling when you get a single yellow after a long line of green.

4-aspect signalling might be safer in theory (the theory being based on the assumption that drivers will observe all aspects and respond correctly), but SPADs seem to happen when a driver gets distracted or tired and makes a mistake and high speed running with closely spaced signals must be more demanding and exhausing for the driver than a lightly signalled route.  AWS is a perfectly adequate system for a dilergent, alert driver on a lightly signalled route, but as speeds, number of signals and traffic densities increase it isn't really up to the job.  also AWS was designed for 3, not 4 -aspect signalling.  Green gives a bell sound and all restrictive aspects the same horn sound.  On 3-aspect that doesn't matter, if you hear a horn you break to stop, on 4-aspect the horn is ambigous - do I break to stop or just slow down a little. 

A look at the reports of rail accidents caused by SPADs show that drivers hardly ever dieliberately ignore a signal (a "determined drive by", the Moorgate tube accident being the only possible exception to that I can think of).  But driving long distances on yellows and closely spaced signals do seem to place more stress on the driver and make him more likely to get it wrong.