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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues => Topic started by: JayMac on October 30, 2009, 03:45:09



Title: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: JayMac on October 30, 2009, 03:45:09
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8333171.stm):

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Train companies have called for longer rail franchises to allow them to provide better quality services. The Association of Train Operating Companies (Atoc) says agreements of 15-20 years would encourage managers to improve services and boost investment. Currently bidders compete for deals typically lasting seven years.

A Department for Transport spokesman said the government was "committed to putting passengers first" when negotiating new franchises. "We are constantly looking at ways to further improve our railways and this includes considering improvements to the rail franchising system," he said.

'Micro-management'

Atoc says longer franchises could attract more private finance into the rail sector as operators would have more time to benefit from investment. The organisation also says longer deals would allow rail managers to focus on improving services for passengers rather than concentrating on bidding for the next franchise.

Atoc also calls for an end to "inappropriate micro-management" by civil servants. It suggests the government should concentrate on the results it wishes to see from franchises, such as improved passenger satisfaction and punctuality, rather than specific details, like the number of ticket machines.

The Atoc report also addresses the risks train companies face in an economic downturn when passenger numbers fall. The government took away the franchise for the East Coast Main Line from National Express when the company made huge losses and failed to convince ministers to revise its terms. Atoc suggests linking franchise payments to GDP output and beginning revenue support earlier in the franchise.

'Passenger satisfaction'

Atoc chief executive Michael Roberts said there was a "window of opportunity" to improve the system. He said: "By implementing a package of focused reforms in time for the next franchises which have to be let, the government can increase the scope for train companies to bring innovation and commercial nous into improving the railways. Equally we would keep the existing mechanisms to deal with any company that fails to perform. Terminating a franchise under our proposals would be no more difficult for a longer franchise than a shorter one."

Rail user groups are calling for passengers' needs to be at the heart of any future changes. Ashwin Kumar, Passenger Focus director, said: "We believe passenger satisfaction targets should be a key part of future franchise contracts as well as a continued focus on improving punctuality."

Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers said Atoc's suggestions supported Conservative proposals made earlier this year. She said Conservative plans for longer franchises were "the only credible alternative to Labour's flawed franchising process".

Liberal Democrat transport spokesman Norman Baker said train passengers have been getting a "raw deal" from the way franchises have been set up. "We need to grow the railways. Longer franchises will get money into the industry by giving companies an incentive to invest in real, long-term improvements," he said.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Timmer on October 30, 2009, 06:39:13
I think its now broadly accepted across the board that longer franchises are the way ahead. Chiltern is a good example of how a longer franchise can work. Short micromanaged franchises are a waste of time and money because of the cost of the franchise process that has to take place every few years.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on October 30, 2009, 09:51:39
I agree. Why on Earth was the South Central franchise re-done again this year? It will only last until 2015 or so when Thameslink starts proper. It would have been far better for Govia to have been given an extension without the costs of the bidding. They were doing an excellent job.

Longer franchises are good, i.e. Chiltern, but there must still be a way for the gov to demand that the keys are handed back if their performance is bad/ they remove lots of staff/trains/services.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on October 30, 2009, 10:29:10
I agree. Why on Earth was the South Central franchise re-done again this year?

To include Gatwick Express?

and the reason for it to go to 2015 is then to include Thameslink....at which point a long franchise might get offered.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: eightf48544 on October 30, 2009, 10:45:13

Longer franchises are good, i.e. Chiltern, but there must still be a way for the gov to demand that the keys are handed back if their performance is bad/ they remove lots of staff/trains/services.

I agree but any longtime franchise must include substantial investment plans by the TOCS.

So for a twenty year FGW franchise I would expect more coaches, more trains, e.g. Melksahm at least every 2 hours, redoubling Swindon Kemble as per Chiltern.

If Networkrail/Crossrail is to electrify to at least Reading then the TOC could pay for Greenford, Windsor Marlow and Henley branches to be electrified. This would pay for itself with a unified very reliable electric fleet cheaper runing costs. If the TOC were to lose the franchise after this investment then some form of payment could be made to compensate for teh loss.

One thing the DFT ought to control is the increase to walk on fares and season ticket fares to Inflation - 1.

All other cheaper fares to be less than walkon with a common universal set of restrictions for non advanced set train tickets. Also to look at cheap last minute walk up fares as I believe  SNCF do on TGVs where you can buy tickets for the train in platform from a machine on the platform.



Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: paul7575 on October 30, 2009, 12:22:21

To include Gatwick Express?


Don't think so, Gatwick express had already been merged into the existing SN franchise by variation procedures a year or so back.

Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: JayMac on October 30, 2009, 14:16:46

....and the reason for it to go to 2015 is then to include Thameslink....at which point a long franchise might get offered.

Lets hope that both Southern and FCC meet their performance targets then, (or both fail - no good if one succeeds and the other doesn't!). Performance related extensions could see both franchises extended to 2017. FCC also have a potential year extra to 2018 at the discretion of the DfT.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on October 30, 2009, 14:35:55
If one fails & the other succeeds, it'll probably end up being similar to the 'old' FGW and Thames Trains......and their 'merger', prior to the whole franchise coming up two / three years later.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: paul7575 on October 30, 2009, 14:41:25
I'd agree the franchise dates have to end together, so some possible extensions for performance reasons probably won't be allowed to happen, ie they'll be negotiated away. As pointed out previously, Thameslink key output 2 results in a significant number of existing routes being transferred from the existing Southern and Southeastern franchises to the combined Thameslink and GN areas. 

The fairly recent precedent was the carve up of the former Central/Silverlink areas where various franchise end dates were tweaked so that LM, EMT, New XC, LO etc were all brought into alignment.  Not forgetting certain former XC routes were landed on TPE and VWC in a fairly sudden manner.

With Thameslink taking on so many existing services I could surmise the current SN and SE franchises even being combined into one, with some self contained London area services being transferred to LO for a later phase of growth.  The Wimbledon - Sutton loop being a good example of the latter, as it isn't going to be part of Thameslink by then.  Of course that is all for a future Thameslink consultation in a few years time...

Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: JayMac on October 30, 2009, 14:52:15
Well if all these franchises come into alignment - maybe add in c2c, NXEA and SWT when they come up for renewal - can anyone think of a name for this super-franchise? What we will have is a network of lines in the south-east....


(Of course for completeness sake I should include Chiltern in this fantasy super-franchise, but they seem to be doing a good job on their own!)


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on October 30, 2009, 15:17:13
British Rail?


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on October 30, 2009, 15:52:21
I think that SWT, SN and SE could be merged into a "Southern" region.

The only loss would be the competition for Chichester commuters, who have seen great improvements in journey time on the Arun Valley line. Basically, many people were driving to Havant onto SWT; so SN cut stops to shorten the journey by about 12 minutes. This is a rare example of where privatisation has worked.

So perhaps a SW and SE region. I think that ALL suburban London routes should become LO, with full Oyster validity.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on October 30, 2009, 15:55:14
I think that ALL suburban London routes should become LO, with full Oyster validity.

That will become a reality within a decade, I reckon. Probably sooner.

Later: Oops, read that as all south-of-the-river suburban. Maybe longer for all.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: welshman on October 30, 2009, 20:53:14
Longer contracts is only half the battle.  ATW have until 2018 but their proposal at the outset to buy 22 new trainsets was turned down by WAG.  Strangely, 22 150s were cascaded from ScotRail instead and they had the new ones.   ???

This is classic micro-management.  Admittedly ATW is probably more heavily subsidised than any other operator but aren't all those Pacers going to start breaking down in 2012?


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: stebbo on October 31, 2009, 20:53:34
As some of you will have gathered I'm not really left wing, but on this I say bring back British Rail (oh and CEGB and a few others)


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: moonrakerz on November 01, 2009, 09:12:27
As some of you will have gathered I'm not really left wing, but on this I say bring back British Rail (oh and CEGB and a few others)

Yes - wouldn't it be great to have the GPO running our telephone system again ? Wait for months to get a line, then have a choice of one colour for your 'phone - great, wasn't it !    ;D


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: paul7575 on November 02, 2009, 09:25:41
I think that ALL suburban London routes should become LO, with full Oyster validity.

Assume full Oyster validity in the London fare zones starts in Jan as planned - ie LO isn't a prerequisite for Oyster pre pay. 

The problem with handing ALL suburban routes to LO, is that the suburban routes don't match to the political area, just looking at the local stoppers in SWT's area, they run well outside 'London', eg Dorking, Shepperton, Guildford, Woking, Windsor. Then there are semi fasts that run as far as places like Alton, Basingstoke or Reading. Do you transfer all these to LO as well?  IMHO LO will work great on discrete routes of its own, such as the NLL, WLL, DC lines, and even the rebuilt part of the ELL. But where LO runs on the mainlines in amongst other TOCs, such as on the Sydenham corridor, where it will be subject to the same route perturbations as SN and FCC, it'll look just like another TOC, but with short trains.

I don't think LO is the panacea you think it is...

Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 02, 2009, 09:27:51
I think BtLine was referring to lines such as Shepperton, Chessington South, etc - inner-suburban if you like.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on November 02, 2009, 15:29:12
I was indeed talking about lines such as Shepperton. Ok, it does enters Surrey, but I think any stopping services that start in London should be LO, even if they project a few miles out of London/across the M25 (whichever border you use). I would also consider making Xrail part of LO.

Semi fasts would remain with current operators obviously!


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 02, 2009, 15:33:27
I thought XRail was to be LO?.....

I can't support those 'suburban' services that serve main-line stations outside the M25, sorry. The Mayor's interests don't go that far.....


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on November 02, 2009, 15:35:11
I thought XRail was to be LO?.....

I can't support those 'suburban' services that serve main-line stations outside the M25, sorry. The Mayor's interests don't go that far.....

The Shepperton and Woking stoppers only go a few miles out of London.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: devon_metro on November 02, 2009, 15:59:45
Quite simple,what is the point?


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 02, 2009, 16:27:27
Which point!? - longer contracts or LO takling over surburban services?


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: devon_metro on November 02, 2009, 17:20:29
Latter


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 02, 2009, 17:21:54
Don' t be too expressive, eh?


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on November 02, 2009, 17:35:39
So the whole of London has consistency. e.g. signage and branding would then be the same at all Tube, Rail, Tram and DLR stations in London.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: paul7575 on November 02, 2009, 19:11:45
The point is that it isn't the branding that makes the service reliable, if the trains are running in and out of Waterloo, Victoria, London Bridge etc in amongst the rest of the outer suburban or middle distance services that remain with the normal TOCs, you get into the problems of more than one TOC per terminal which they've been trying to get rid of for the last few years. You'd need joint control, you'd definitely have common signalling as now.

AFAICS It really isn't possible for a proposed 'LO inner suburban service' to have its own dedicated routes into, and platforms in, any of the 'SR' terminii, so the advantages that you see with the dedicated routes such as the NLL and WLL isn't likely to happen.

I have never seen any suggestion that Crossrail will be part of LO. Again, with it running all the way to Reading, it gets well outside the London mayor's area of responsibility. I think it may well be a TfL sponsored TOC, but it will have to be a fully integrated mainline TOC, as far as I can see.

Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 03, 2009, 09:05:36
AFAICS It really isn't possible for a proposed 'LO inner suburban service' to have its own dedicated routes into, and platforms in, any of the 'SR' terminii, so the advantages that you see with the dedicated routes such as the NLL and WLL isn't likely to happen.

The plans definitely exist at TfL as it was in Ken's masterplan, for sure. He mentioned this at meetings more than once. Whether Boris will pick it up, he hasn't yet said. I don't think Ken was worried about sharing stations, but he had the DfT's ear, that's for sure.

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I have never seen any suggestion that Crossrail will be part of LO. Again, with it running all the way to Reading

Says who? It currently will go only to Maidenhead. Let's not start stating theory as fact again, please.

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it gets well outside the London mayor's area of responsibility.
Quote

Not at Maidenhead, it doesn't :-)

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I think it may well be a TfL sponsored TOC, but it will have to be a fully integrated mainline TOC, as far as I can see.

I wouldn't disagree with that - but can you see any difference between LO and LOROL?

Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2009, 11:28:30
AFAICS It really isn't possible for a proposed 'LO inner suburban service' to have its own dedicated routes into, and platforms in, any of the 'SR' terminii, so the advantages that you see with the dedicated routes such as the NLL and WLL isn't likely to happen.

The plans definitely exist at TfL as it was in Ken's masterplan, for sure. He mentioned this at meetings more than once. Whether Boris will pick it up, he hasn't yet said. I don't think Ken was worried about sharing stations, but he had the DfT's ear, that's for sure.

Like in many subject areas, as I see it Ken Livingstone announced that he hoped to take over all the inner suburban routes rather prematurely, just like many other completely unfunded transport plans. I think it was one of TfL's proposals for the new SN franchise as well.  Unfortunately for Ken, the DfT didn't seem to agree, although they gave TfL a fairly detailed remit for certain TOC services that run mostly within the GLA boundaries. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/sectflrailfranchise/guidancetfldftrailfranchise.pdf (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/sectflrailfranchise/guidancetfldftrailfranchise.pdf)
However the document says nothing about TfL actually expanding LO at all, and the original proposal seems to have gone very quiet again. For example the latest Mayoral master plan doesn't mention TfL taking direct control of any more services.

I'm still far from convinced it would be easy to run all inner suburban services separately.  Maybe experienced railwaymen had the same advise for the DfT?
Now as an alternative method if SWT, for example, were to relivery all their inner suburban routes as LO, and man the stations like LOROL do the LO ones, what would be the difference as far as the public are concerned?
Actually transferring all the routes to a separate LO franchise would surely just create duplication - how would you share out all the different fleets, depots and staff for instance?  Again, new stock was needed for the NLL, ELL at the same time as the reorganisation, but the same wouldn't be true for Southeastern by any means.

I take your point about Crossrail to Reading btw...
 
Paul


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 03, 2009, 13:04:22
I take your point about Crossrail to Reading btw...

So do I. But I've still got my hat at the ready if it doesn't get extended to Reading.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: ChrisB on November 03, 2009, 13:32:17
Oh, I'm pretty sure it will do.....but I doubt the current Government will announce it.


Title: Re: "Train firms seek longer contracts" (BBC News 30/10/09)
Post by: Btline on November 03, 2009, 16:48:13
We'll be lucky if the next one does and all! Remember, the Tories* haven't yet committed to Xrail. They could put the work on hold and mothball the current structures for an indefinite period.

I think that's why they're getting stuck in now, to get as many contracts as possible, etc.

*In this sense, Boris does not count as a Tory, as he has conflicting view to the Westminster party. Just like Daniel Hannan on Europe.



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