Great Western Coffee Shop

The local press reports that a rail summit is planned to discuss the decreasing number of services stopping at Hayle (and the associated fall in passenger numbers) amid fears that if current trend continues, the station may close altogether. Link below.

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/news/Fears-erosion-services-force-station-closure/article-1513387-detail/article.html

If, as many wish, stops are eliminated on Cornish expresses, could a Truro-Penzance stopper offer a solution?

Maybe if people from Hayle actually bothered to pay their fares instead of getting on at the opposite end to the guard, walking in the opposite direction and sitting as far away as possible then the passenger figures would reflect the true amount of people travelling, when working a train out of penzance, you can guarantee that the only people who wont have a ticket are the ones going to Hayle because they know that the guard cant get them all in the short journey time. People of Hayle, you can't have it all ways, take note of my comments and think about them seriously!

can't Penzance be gated?

 Same thing Torre-Newton Abbot-Teignmouth.
 One person on the barrier/footbridge would surely pay.

I have clients in Hayle... That would be really annoying... I struggle to get to Hayle and back to Westbury again in a day at the best of times... but to reduce train services to Hayle would make it almost impossble and would probably result in me getting the Sleeper or taking 2 days for a single callout as it's a 5 1/2 hour journey each way... :o

Looking at the timetable most Down trains actually stop at Hayle even though there are only 2 mainline stations after Hayle. But only a few up trains stop (mostly local services), it would only take a couple more minutes to make an additional stop at Hayle. However trains might take a while to gain full speed going up the hill to Gwinear Road.

Mark

hardly anyone uses the station though, it has a tiny platform making it a pain in the backside for HST's, it's 3 mins from St Erth and like you say, it takes forever for HST's to accelerate up the steep bank towards Gwinear rd, especially this time of year!

If ever the St. Erth P&R station complex opens it'd be simple to run buses to Hayle from that site in addition to trains to St. Ives, closing Hayle Station could be considered then as a realistic part of the scheme.

Hi, Thetrout. Westbury to Cornwall isn't the easiest rail journey at the moment, is it? How often do you have to travel that way (and do you do the "Great Way Round" via Bristol in the morning?

hardly anyone uses the station though ...[/quote]


Hmmm ... the following stations have fewer ticket sales per annum than Hayle - I've started my list with those which are closest in numbers to Hayle and then drop off.

Ivybridge
Kintbury
Ashchurch
Lympstone Commando
Lawrence Hill
Polsloe Bridge
Severn Beach
Bicester Town
Lostwithiel
Gunnislake
Culham
Patchway
Avonmouth
Upwey
Bedminster
Pembroke Dock
Melksham
St James Park
Sea Mills
Honeybourne
Gomshall
Parson Street
Saltash
Weston Milton
Shirehampton
Pinhoe
St Germans
Bere Alston
Crediton
Calstock ...

I would imagine that a few people would be up in arms if you suggested that bussing to the nearest railhead was an option for these ...

IF the service was frequent and reliable I see no problem, St Erth > Hayle is at worst 10 mins along the causeway so I think it quite realistic, especially if the number of available onward rail services at St Erth was significantly higher than Hayle.

 

More frequent than the one train every 12 hours currently stopping at Melksham?

There are 15 trains one way and 13 the other calling at Hayle in the current timetable, with a population of just under 9,000 and a footfall of 60174 journeys per annum ticketed to or from there. That's about 7800 trains per annum calling, each picking up / dropping off 8 passengers, and just under 7 journeys per head of population for the year.

Continuing Phil's Melksham comparision, 2 trains call each way for a population of around 22,000 and the ticket sales were 38081 for the most recent year for which we have figures.  That's around 1400 trains, each picking up / dropping off 27 passengers if the figures are to be believed (I don't), and between 1 and 2 journeys per head of population for the year.

I have just been up to one of our alternative railheads, Chippenham, to pick up a customer who arrived there at a time that didn't connect (in his opinion) with the only piece of public transport that links the towns on a Sunday - the 18:47 train.  The round trip took me about 50 minutes including wait time at Chippehnam, and it involved me going right through the town centre twice.

I'm always looking for comparisons and I know I sorta started this one but actually it doesn't work terribly well. Although passenger numbers Hayle -> Melksham are in the same ballpark, so much else is different.  7:1 ratio on trains calling, 3:1 ratio on population, 5:1 ratio on bus time ...

Critically, Melksham's passenger numbers is supressed by having just a skeleton service that gives no realistic round journey opportunities, and I suspect that's not a limiting factor at Hayle although the 7 journeys per head of population figure is a very low one to what we see at other stations in our neck of the woods.

Not really... very nice journey though... I change at Bath Spa and take the Penzance Train... I travel that route on average 5 times a year... or when something goes horribly wrong with one of the servers (I work in IT ;) ) I probably travel more to Liskeard & Plymouth more than Hayle. I quite like taking the train from Bath because it has a Travelling Chef and I can have a Vege Breaky brought to my seat... I can also get a good 3G signal for the majority of the journey meaning I can access my e-mails when needed :)

What I will probably do in the future is take the sleeper train as it will get me there for a 8:00 start... which means I could probably get back to Westbury for a reasonably acceptable time. :)

hi vacman maybe if anybody bothered to do tickets from hayle then we might get a true picture of how many people use the station. >:(

Hayle has services specified in both the Greater Western and Cross Country franchaises so they are not about to dissapear.

Don' think we'll even see the back of Coombe or even Lelant Saltings (after the St Erth Park and Ride goes live).

Would be interesting to know how many people buy a Hayle - St Ives ticket but only travel on the St Ives branch. Thought it was a well known local trick to do that and avoid buying an 'expensive' branchline ticket.

Hayle - St Ives Off Peak Return ^2.90
St ives Branch Ranger ^4.00

Even with a Devon and Cornwall Railcard goving 50% Off on the branch it is still cheaper to buy a ticket to Hayle.

not many travel from hayle to st ives because the connections are not very good. 10.07 arrives st erth 10.11 branch depts 10.11 11.07 arrives st erth 11.11 branch depts 11.11, so most passengers drive to lelant saltings thus ^4 ranger ticket.

That is my point. Drive to Saltings, but buy a Hayle to St Ives return.

Save money, and still have a legal ticket.

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, STATION MASTER!  ;)

I remember when I was 14/15 and lived in Cornwall, You could buy a Child Cheap Day Return from Liskeard - Plymouth for ^2.90, Yet buy a Cheap Day Return from Liskeard - Quintrell Downs for ^2.55  :o ???

Having said that, In the summer you could buy a Child Saver First Class Return for ^6.00 from Liskeard to Plymouth... Also you could buy a First Cheap Day Return from Liskeard - Newquay for about ^6 also... The latter during the summer months on weekends, was well worth it just to get a seat ;) the added tea & coffee making trout happy ;D and having a pleasent journey ;D

Funnily enough, the Child Cheap Day (Off Peak) Return from Liskeard to Plymouth is only ^2.50 now (as a result of the June 06 fares reduction)!  Liskeard - Quintrell Downs is now the same - ^2.50.

A First Class Child Cheap Day (Off Peak) Return from Liskeard - Plymouth is now ^5.15.

With Hayle being quite close to both St Erth, with its junction status, and Camborne, with a much larger population, it seems inevitable that it would get squeezed in a drive to shorten journey times by reducing stops. It does, however, have reasonably healthy usage stats (especially given Vacman's portrayal of the station as a fare-dodgers haven).

I thought I'd check this assertion against previous, current and future timetables:

MONDAY-FRIDAY

DECEMBER 2006

Westbound (14 services)

0737, 0808, 0909, 1001, 1106, 1256, 1451, 1619, 1750, 1911, 2036, 2111, 2209, 0013.

Eastbound (13 services)

0532, 0615, 0657, 0759, 1047, 1152, 1501, 1654, 1749, 1916, 2025, 2106, 2214.

MAY 2007

Westbound (14 services)

0740, 0808, 0856, 1001, 1106, 1255, 1450, 1620, 1750, 1914, 2036, 2111, 2209, 0013.

Eastbound (13 services)

0532, 0615, 0657, 0757, 1047, 1152, 1501, 1655, 1749, 1916, 2025, 2106, 2214.

DECEMBER 2007

Cant find my copy at the moment - sorry.

MAY 2008

Westbound (15 services + 1 summer only - 1812)

0740, 0808, 0856, 0958, 1107, 1222, 1259, 1453, 1544, 1750, 1812, 1915, 2036, 2113, 2215, 0013.

Eastbound (15 services)

0532, 0615, 0655, 0757, 0857, 1047, 1154, 1306, 1501, 1655, 1751, 1916, 2025, 2106, 2214.

DECEMBER 2008

Westbound (17 services)

0739, 0808, 0853, 1007, 1110, 1224, 1259, 1413, 1453, 1542, 1749, 1914, 1935, 2116, 2216, 2232, 0014.

Eastbound (15 services)

0533, 0611, 0658, 0751, 0857, 0952, 1101, 1156, 1305, 1501, 1656, 1751, 1917, 2025, 2219.

MAY 2009

Westbound (15 services + 1 summer only ^ 1353)

0739, 0805, 0853, 1007, 1107, 1224, 1353, 1422, 1454, 1537, 1750, 1915, 1935, 2209, 2231, 0014.

Eastbound (13 services)

0531, 0611, 0751, 0952, 1057, 1157, 1305, 1501, 1656, 1752, 1924, 2030, 2220.

DECEMBER 2009

Westbound (15 services)

0739, 0805, 0853, 1007, 1106, 1227, 1422, 1455, 1537, 1750, 1916, 1935, 2210, 2231, 0016.

Eastbound (13 services)

0531, 0611, 0753, 0952, 1057, 1154, 1305, 1501, 1656, 1753, 1927, 2030, 2220.

CONCLUSIONS

The trend was actually towards increasing services and plugging gaps up until May 2009, when service changes created a significantly worse Eastbound morning peak service, presumably in order to speed up journey times for Penzance passengers. The evening service has also significantly worsened from the (roughly) hourly base established in December 2006, although this trend actually began in December 2008, continuing into the May 2009 timetable.

A clue to the official reasoning behind the May 2009 service changes can be found in the following quote from the Network Rail GW RUS:



This is true, but was caused by a retiming of services from what they were in 2006/2007, rather than as a result of a reduction in the number of stops.


He is also quoted as describing the Sunday service as 'appalling'

SUNDAY

DECEMBER 2006

Westbound (6 services)

1111, 1150, 1247, 1728, 1911, 2056.

Eastbound (4 services)

0904, 1403, 1520, 1912.

MAY 2007

Westbound (6 services)

1051, 1150, 1247, 1632, 1913, 2056.

Eastbound (6 services ^ 1 summer withdrawal ^ 0846)

0846, 0904, 1403, 1802, 1907, 2007.

DECEMBER 2007

Cant find my copy at the moment - sorry.

MAY 2008

Westbound (6 services)

1056, 1219, 1309, 1637, 1910, 2106.

Eastbound (4 services + 1 summer only ^ 1802)

0845, 1403, 1520, 1802, 2012.

DECEMBER 2008

Westbound (6 services)

1119, 1220, 1302, 1716, 1904, 2110.

Eastbound (4 services)

0852, 1403, 1520, 2012.

MAY 2009

Westbound (6 services)

1106, 1227, 1300, 1719, 1921, 2133.

Eastbound (5 services + 1 summer only - 1802)

0852, 1244, 1403, 1518, 1802, 2012.

DECEMBER 2009

Westbound (6 services)

1106, 1225, 1300, 1722, 1922, 2128.

Eastbound (5 services)

0850, 1244, 1403, 1520, 2017.

CONCLUSION

The level of Sunday service provision has been consistently very low, well below the Monday-Friday level. The long service gap that Paul Birch refers to does indeed exist, but has tended to be plugged in the summer months.

From This Is The West Country: (http://www.thisisthewestcountry.co.uk/news/cornwall_news/4743502.Hayle_rail_station_future_in_doubt/?ref=rss)

Firstly, nobody has said that the station is to close, and looking at this december it appears that there are no less trains than now?
As for the sunday service, going back to the late 1990's there were only ever 2 trains per day at Hayle in each direction!

In order to judge whether this is a case of "closure by stealth", it is worth looking again at what the RUS says:


The key question is whether the May 2009 timetable changes mark the end of the process of improving journey times by removing station calls, or whether "the recommendation to continually review requirements and the calling patterns for journey time improvements as an ongoing timetabling activity" will see further station calls removed.

The Hayle campaigners clearly fear the latter.

However, as richard bickford pointed out in an earlier post, the specification has to be considered. This is a complex beast, as it allows for part of FGW's quota of Plymouth-Penzance services to be provided by another operator. The upshot though is that Hayle is required to be served by at least 10 service calls in each direction on Monday-Friday, with at least 1 service call in each direction provided by Arriva CrossCountry.

This means that there remains scope for the further removal of station calls at Hayle if the TOC's wished to go down that route. Looking at the timetable, I would probably be watching the Hayle service calls in the 1006, 1406 and 1703 Paddington-Penzance services in this regard.

Specifications are not set in stone, though. There are several examples, in both FGW-land and beyond in places like East Anglia, where TOC's have gained significant specification changes by presenting a convincing business case to the DfT.

Personally though, I wouldnt be suprised if Hayle gained service calls in future timetables. After all, the Appleford/Culham folks raised the spectre of closure by stealth when their service calls were cut in May 2009, and several service calls have been added back in the December 2009 timetable.

Adding calls at Hayle in the 0648 Penzance-Paddington and 1206 Paddington-Penzance services would probably resolve a lot of their issues. The former should be relatively straightforward, but the latter may be more problematic as it could reduce turnaround time at Penzance.

Lee, it's all very well people banging on about how stops from stations from Hayle shouldn't be cut, but the stark reality is that when FGW put in loads of stops in dec 06 then nobody used them!

You mention the 0648 pnz-pad, this train used to call at Hayle but you would never see more than 2 people get on, and that train had stopped there for around 4 years! likewise the 1703 Pad-Pnz, i've been on that train a few times and have NEVER seen a single passenger get on or off at Hayle!

I believe that more people would be attracted to rail if journeys were quicker with less stops, particularly from Cornwall, i'm out there every day on these trains, I see it first hand, I hear what people moan about and what they praise.

Dont get me wrong, vacman, I do think your point about usage has merit.

Let's look again at the Appleford/Culham example, where the following quotes set a similar tone to that at Hayle:



FGW's response was as follows:


When I read that, I honestly thought that FGW were going to ride out the storm.

They didnt though, and Appleford/Culham have been given a second chance, along with what effectively amounts to a "use it or lose it" challenge. It is now imperative that they get people onto their restored services to justify their inclusion in the timetable, as indeed the Hayle folks will have to if they gain/regain services.

You can bet that's what we will bust a gut to do when we get a proper service on the TransWilts.

On the issue of improved journey times/less stops on Cornish services, the concern would be that we could end up heading for the following scenario:

"HST/IEP and XC services will now only serve St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard between Penzance-Plymouth. Dont worry though, the other stations will continue to be served by the DMU services."

Whilst that might sound reasonable, it would have quite a negative impact on services at stations such as Hayle, Lostwithiel, St Germans and Saltash.

I think that the new timetable is a sensible compromise for Appleford and Culham. The village of Appleford getting a 2-hourly service for its residents, with Culham getting a service aimed at the Science Centre commuters (who I would estimate make up 90-95% of the stations business), but with an additional early afternoon train for anybody working a half-day.

Good to see you posting again, Lee.

only just seen thic post, it is actually the responsibility of the passenger to buy a ticket and have on many accasions seen a few people get on a t Hayle and if not challenged for a ticket happily walk out of the station at Penzance without paying, if people of Hayle are really that concerned then they need to do their bit aswell.

I think FGW have realised that Saltash is now one of the "main" stations, there is one extra service from December, a lot of this is thanks to Richard Bickford's efforts to actually get people onto the trains.

At the end of the day you have to draw the line somewhere with the amount of stops on "Express" trains, and long distance srvices in general, look at the 1406 Pad-Pnz, it stops at 13 stations on the 79 miles between Plymouth and Penzance, but only 7 stations between Pad and Plymouth!

You are right, but IIRC Hayle doesn't even have a TVM, so I expect the attitute of many passengers (perhaps even the majority of passengers, certainly more than the scrote minority) is that "if they can't be bothered to sell me a ticket on board then why should I pay"  If you leave the train at Penzance without a ticket you should queque up at the window and buy one on your way out of the station.  But I think you have an unrealistic view of human nature if you think that more than a few upright citizens will do that. 

FGW does have a responsibility to the payer and fare paying passenges to encourage ticket purchase.  Would checks on exiting Penzance not pay for themselves?

Not sure we are classified as 'main' yet, but we want to be. The population of the town and surrounding area has the potential to provide significant passenger growth.

You are right we do gain an extra service in December. The 1755 from Plymouth will call which strengthens the commuter offer. You will note the minimal impact a Saltash stop has on the timetable. I think its a minute later at Liskeard, but even thats gets absorbed by Truro or Redruth.

My main drive at the moment is to get even more on the service we have, and get Network Rail to do something about the up platform gap.

I was looking through a publication on the DfT website, regarding station facilities, available from

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/stations/betterrailstations/pdf/report.pdf (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/stations/betterrailstations/pdf/report.pdf)

This report was commisioned by Lord Adonis after his week long tour regarding station facilities. in the report under figure 8 there is a list of what is expected at different classes of stations. The report classifies Hayle as a grade F1 station and states that there should be a ticket machine, unless derogartion or paytrain operation. It also classifies Saltash as an F2 station which is a lower classification, and no ticketing facilities to be expected.

Thanks Industry Insider  :) I'd go along with what you said.


I'd certainly agree that SRUG have done an excellent job promoting the Saltash rail service. Some of their publicity material, for example, is inspiration for what we'd like to do on the TransWilts when we actually get a service worth promoting.

I hope that Saltash (as I believe is the 5th largest town in Cornwall, correct me if I am wrong) is considered more highly than it used to be in the station heirachy. I note, though that the extra stop, while very welcome, is in a DMU-operated service, so Saltash may still not be considered quite ready for full "main station" status.

Good luck with your drive though, Richard. I'm certainly rooting for you  :)

I think Saltash is #6 or #7, depending on whether you count Camborne-Pool-Redruth as one or two. The others ahead of Saltash are Sanozzle,Trura, Newquay and P'nzance. Helston (population 10k) is the largest Cornish town with no railway connection, though part of the former branch line is currently being resurrected by a dedicated group of preservationists, who are making impressive progress. 
 

6th. I count Truro as a City!

We also potentially serve much of the Western and Northern part of Plymouth, especially for westbound travel, but we have some that come here for easy access to HST services to London.

Fair enough. I've found a quote from former town mayor Bob Austin putting you at number 6, so it must be true  ;D

Do you have any figures on how your passenger numbers break down, in terms of those from Saltash and those from elsewhere, such as the Western and Northern part of Plymouth?

 :) fair enough Richard. In any case, Saltash's importance is likely to continue growing with the population in the SE corner of Cornwall and the western fringes of Plymouth. I've occasionally wondered (dreamed?) whether a Tamar area "metro" network encompassing Tavistock/Gunnislake/SE Cornwall <Plymouth North Road> Friary/Plympton/Derriford (via Marsh Mills/the Plym Valley line) would be a feasible long-term aim.

No real figures. I do know there are some, because I have met quite a few on the station.

Back to the Hayle thread, do any FGW staff have a feel if there are many that do travel on the St Ives branch with Hayle - St Ives tickets because they are cheaper? Or is it just myth..

Mostly passengers who have walked in one direction and get the train back will be sold a hyl-siv single, or passengers who have bought advance tickets from cross country who seem to charge a premium for adding any branch line fare to their tickets.

I'm quite deliberately resurrecting this rather old topic here, with some welcome news - from the Falmouth Packet (http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/11018273.__811_000_scheme_to_improve_access_and_safety_at_Hayle_station/):

I didn't realise there was an existing underpass or a foot bridge and I lived in Hayle for 3 years. It's been baffling me since I read the story yesterday.

There is a pedestrian foot crossing with warning lights.

The underpass is west of the station virtually under the pedestrian foot crossing, used as car access to rear of houses along Penpol terrace. The bridge is at the east end of the station. was originally I presume a road crossing but now just used as a footpath.

Another 'bargin' on the railways at ^811K...where DO they get these prices from?? But glad of some improvement at Hayle TBH

The disused harbour branch simply needs a bit of "gardening" and "weeding" so assume the big cost isn't involved in making that a footpath.
The underpass again just needs cutting back, so I can only assume the big cost is in building a ramp.

From The Cornishman (http://www.cornishman.co.uk/Passengers-advised-leave-extra-time-Hayle-railway/story-20860894-detail/story.html):

I'm waiting at hayle now, the improvement looks great, clean and fresh, however they've not touched the underpass which looks a rusty mess. I walked from north Quay and it was great having the old freight line as a footpath, saving the walk the long way round to foundry square and up. Overall looks great other than the underpass

From the First Great Western press release: