Great Western Coffee Shop

From the 'news' section of FGW website:

Let's hope the refurbed coaches are prioritised first on the Cotswold line. It's the LEAST passengers making 3 hours journeys should get.

Sadly, that won't happen - they'll just be chucked straight back into the rotating diagram cycle of their class designed to ensure all units are refuelled, do similar mileage, and undergo light exams at regular enough intervals. The fleet is at full stretch as it is without trying to accommodate those sort of suggestions. Bear in mind that only just over half of the fleet return to Reading depot on a given night for long enough for the serious stuff to be undertaken. Refuelling cannot take place at stabling points such as Oxford (where up to 15 units can spend the night).

It's also important that HST availability improves, so that those left in service can cover their own workings in the peak.

At last, its taken long enough to get this refresh underway and its going to take 2 years to complete it so long suffering Thames line passengers will have to put up with the turbos in their current state for a while yet it would seem. Good that its finally underway though.

Does anyone know what's happening to seating in this refurbishment? Are the Turbos going to get the same claustophobic high seat backs as on the HSTs? Will the pointless 2+3 seating be replaced by 2+2? ("Pointless" because nobody ever sits in the middle one of the three - it's mainly used for luggage).

Does say "refreshed seating" so I expect that to mean a clean coat of paint and new cushions

I do hope they fix the windows on the 165's so that they can a) stay shut when supposed too and b) can be opened when required

Oh and good news about a refresh on the toilets as they currently lack any freshness

Btline, do you moonlight as the author of the Hogrider newsletter for South Hampshire Rail Users' Group (SHRUG), by any chance...?  You both seem very fond of random capitalizations ;)

exactly right fresh paint and new cloth,as for the toilets they will get refreshed but will no doubt end up back in a crap state like the west fleet is now

Rather topically, on the subject of toilets being in a 'crap' state - from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8481283.stm):


;D

As I understand it, the work programme is to do the 165s first, then tackle the 166s, due to the added complication of trying to sort out the air conditioning.

3+2 seats stay, though there was talk at customer panel meetings a year ago or so of a 'stretch' refreshment, which would at least mean new seats for the 166s, though with the existing interior layout retained. Whether this is accounted for by some of the extra spending remains to be seen.

All windows are to be renewed with laminated glass, so hopefully this will give the opportunity to sort out the window frames and catches while they're at it.

On the Paddington to Maidenhead commute all 3 seats are usually used in the threes in the rush hour... So I'd like to hope they will keep them..where will all the people stand otherwise, there's no room for any more standing people as it is.. :)

 For about two months, untill they moved just after xmas there was two carriages from a 3-car unit dumped outside the depot, so maybe this is the unit they have started on. Lets hope they clean the units better now so as not to undo all their good work. I wonder if the units were designed to the miles they now do?

Yup, I can confirm that.


Correct again, the 'stretch' refreshment was cancelled because of the recession.

would not hold my breath about better cleaning after refresh so as not to undo the hard work,just take a look at west fleet now.millions spent yet they are now nearing condition pre refresh inside not to mention they no longer look blue on outside due to dirt build up.maybe the depots are on water meter and trying to cut costs??

FGW (TV Units) are possibly the worst in terms of cleanliness on any of the London suburban routes and I do use services out of most London terminals

Recently I travelled on a South Eastern Trains Class 465 which is essentially of the same age and design as the FGW Turbos. If I hadn't known its age I would have guessed it was about 10 years younger than the Turbos. It was much cleaner and brighter and the interior panels and window frames didn't look like they were about to fall off.

I'm not defending the state of the Turbo interiors, but it is worth remembering that electric trains are easier to keep clean than diesel trains, both internally and externally.

To a degree this is true as far a colorisation of paint due to diesel fumes, if you look under the seats of FGW TV units they are never deep cleaned, things like rubber seals around windows, although the result of vandalism. never repaired the SE 465 operated through similar "social" areas as FGW 165.

I accept the 165/6 operate some punishing diagrams and the refresh is about 3 years over due but FGW do need to improve their cleaning standards, things like 3 or 6 monthly deep cleans.

Getting on for three dozen of the 465s were given a pretty thorough refit internally in 2005-6 and classed as 465/9s, so you might have been on one of those.

they are supposed to get a PHC every 60 days,no disrespect to the cleaners who carry out this task but when the contrct is tendered to outside companies like ISS who pay the minimum wage for night work i am afraid you get what you pay for.hence the poor state of the sets

I agree with you Smithy

Interview with Mark Hopwood on BBC1 Oxford tonight:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/england/realmedia/southtoday/oxford/oxford?size=16x9&bgc=C0C0C0&nbram=1&bbram=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1#

You are already compensated for these 3 hour journeys via the farebox due to the fact that you pay 50% less per mile that someone travelling Bristol to Paddington. I dunno theres no pleasing some people!! :D

Just found this on the Marlow Maidenhead Passangers Association website of 165109 due to return to service soon


Standard
(http://www.mmpa.org.uk/images/refresh_std.jpeg)

First
(http://www.mmpa.org.uk/images/refresh_1st.jpeg)


http://www.mmpa.org.uk/news.html (http://www.mmpa.org.uk/news.html)

Has there been some digital "sleight of hand" there...?

The FC section looks correct for a 165 but the standard class picture is a 166, with opening windows at alternate bays, different window catches and the pointy tables. Since I thought the 165s were being done first while FGW tries to figure out a way to make the A/C work on the 166s, are those real photos or "artist's impressions"...?

From the Marlow - Maidenhead Passengers' Association website (http://www.mmpa.org.uk/news.html):

They're not photos!

But you're right, they're just digital artist's impressions. Looking quite nice though.

i see they are going down the road of saloon carpet still? makes no sense to me on a commuter train much easier to keep lino clean when someone decides to throw their guts up.

Does anyone know if power plugs for mobile's and laptop's being fitted at all...?!

Would be great to see them on the 158's & Turbo's :)

I would very much doubt it, given the cost of the scheme, but it certainly should have been done in 1st Class at least.

More to the point, if power points are being provided - which way round are they being installed?

Because they are worse than useless if moulded plugs don't fit them due to the distance between the table and the socket, as happens at the moment.

I actually think they might be photos, just digitally enhanced, otherwise they've gone to a lot of trouble producing them, ie. Go Do magazines and shadowing etc

I'd bet a lot of money that they are computer generated images. Perhaps a photo of the trains in their current state, with the proposed refresh digitally stuck on top.

This thread in Rail UK Forums has in its first message a 'real' photo of a refurbished 165 interior:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31943

Not sure which turbo it was, but there was a refurbished set on the 07.04 Reading - Redhill and the 1744 Redhill - Reading today (Monday 26th April)

Not sure if any mechanical work was included but it spent 10 minutes at Blackwater station due to door problems.

Think I was on a refreshed unit this morning, 165101, the interior certainly looked new!

165120 was also trundling around in refurb state.

Any news on what has been done to the destination screens (inside the train), if anything?

Screeens semmed to be working ok, although that said the 1 in 165120 did look like it was newly fitted

Well how freaky is this. - I am now on 165120 on the Pad-Greenford route - can't say the info display I'm looking at (near the FC compartment) looks too new though!

It won't look very new for long if it's stuck on the Greenford's late at night!  I believe the information system is part of a separate contract and so will not necessarily be done at the same time - although all units should be completed in the same time-scale, probably sooner.

It's only about 2 months ago that nominations for a suitable voice for the automated PA announcements was being sought from the current driver establishment, so I doubt they are ready to install the new system quite yet.  Probably no Phil or Celia to please Btline in this case!

I'll do it! I've worked in (hospital) radio and enjoy using the trains - I'd even consider applying for a train manager job if one ever came up!

Vacancy at Bristol

Some good news at the CLPG AGM today - that efforts to improve the 166 air conditioning system look to be much more thorough than had been expected. After discussions with Angel Trains - the leasing firm - a set is expected to be sent in the summer to Doncaster (Wabtec presumably), for a trial fit of an improved system, which, if successful, will be supplied in kit form to Reading depot to be fitted as the 166s are refreshed. The first 166 set is due to be tackled at the end of this year.

We were told there are now four refurbished 165s in traffic.

Excellent news about the 166 aircon

yes there seems to be a plague of refreshed 165's about

Made several trips around the Thames Valley in the last couple of weeks when I was back in the UK, and saw two or three refurbished units. Annoyingly though they were all on late night Oxford - Didcot services and locked out of use so was unable to see what they're like inside other than by peering through the windows!

165120 has already blown a ceiling light and the sliding doors across the 1st Class compartment don't meet by several milimeters. Draughty in winter, I reckon.

The lighting definitely appears brighter in the refreshed Turbos - I had the chance to compare when I travelled on what was essentially an ECS movement back to Reading depot the other night (2255 OXF - DID, eight cars of which only the front two were in use, not that that was a problem given the number of passengers) which had a refurbished 3-car unit, which may even have been 120, sandwiched in the middle.

Incidentally why are the lights left on when a turbo unit forms part of a train but isn't in use? It would make it easier to figure out which cars are actually available, as the "Sorry this door not in use" lights on the outside of the units are both small and dim!

Lamp cleaning generally increases the light output of defused fitting up to 10% add to that the paintwork in the carriage is new and clean and the choice of colours FGW "lavender" will enhance the UV end of the lighting replacing all the tubes for new ones, also the type of tube used may have been changed

Have had a few runs on the non air con "refreshed" 2 car 165s between Basing and Reading. Really seems just like a fresh coat of paint and new seat covers except - where have the little tables between the standard class face to face seats gone? My morning coffee used to rest there - now it has to be juggled with a copy of the metro for the journey. Surely taking these tables away is not an improvement?

They sometimes are - depends on the circumstances.  Unfortunately there's no way of switching the lights off on a specific set if they're coupled together (without tripping circuit breakers in each individual coach which is way too time consuming!) - so unless the set that's being locked out of use already has its lights switched off, they will stay on.

Currently on board 165124 waiting to pull out
of Paddington working the Greenford
route - looking very resplendent in it's new interior! So
that's another unit to add to the list!

Well,

   been on a few now, two of which had internal panels falling off already, not happy about the tables going either! its alsom a shame they are not replacing the damaged glazing units and one the unit this moring there was a chunk missing off the front above the light so noting has been dont on the outside, but I know funds are tight. Also Ive noticed a real downturn in the running of units over the last few months- a lot of units are sounding very rough indeed, and been effected by two break downs in the same week. Seems pointless doing this work if they wont look after the units any better- nothing against the overworked fitters I add.

Nope, it's not.  Neither was when several years ago the little fold down tables at the back of the airline seats disappeared without trace.  I can only assume it's to reduce maintenance?

Slightly better news is that a unit with the new CIS system installed should be imminent, though initially only on the one unit to trial the new system out.

Had my first experience of one of the refurbished units on Saturday on a Basingstoke - Reading service. Overall impression was cleaner and brighter but couldn't help noticing that three windows had jammed and the stuffing was already emerging from a number of seat cushions - I hope this hasn't been a rush job done on the cheap otherwise given the use they get they won't be looking good for long....

Nipped to the loo on one of the refreshed sets today (forget which one) and was greeted with a nice clean toilet spoiled by thick blue scrawled graffiti covering most of the panels.  Struck me as a bit of a shame, but just how do you stop 'people' doing that sort of thing in areas where CCTV can't ever monitor?  I wonder whether some kind of laminate covering of the surfaces, similar to the ones which have all but eliminated the horrible scratching on the windows (along with CCTV), could be used, so that it just gets peeled off and a fresh covering applied?  Sadly, the graffiti remover seems to just smear the worst of it when staff try to get it off.

On a more positive note, the wording indicated the individual who did the graffiti was obviously pleased with himself that he'd been the first to tag a brand new train - so at least, in that 'customers' eyes, the refurb has made a dramatic difference to the train!

Is anyone who uses the new refreshed Class 165 Turbo shocked that no air conditioning is fitted to them, also some windows are stuck shut meaning it would take a mammoth amount of strength to open it. And also the new door design is good although how on earth does a women's skirt get trapped in the doors which then can't shut properly? So much for FGW refresh programme what a failure it is. Might use Chiltern service instead nice and better designed Class 165 with air conditioning but I can't since travelling between Maidenhead and Windsor and Eton Central. So looks like I have to put up with New refresh class 165 until the line gets electrified which looks increasing unlikely  :(

165's were never designed for air-con (not sure the chiltern ones have been retro fitted either) it is indeed very sad that all FGW have done to the 165's is a lick of paint, new lino and cushions inside and not addressed the poor window latches that in the summer can be stuck shut and in the winter fail to stay shut.  The 166's which are supposed to be air-con are the last for the refresh there was some debate here if FGW had the funds to fix the systems or not

would you like to swap for some 142's

No thanks we have enough rubbish of our own ta.

Not too much wrong with the 165's just some attention to the window latches and in the winter ensuring the thermostats switch the heating on.
166's either the air con is fixed or replace the windows with 165 stylee to provide better ventilation in the summer

The Thames Turbos have proved to be reliable units especially given their punishing diagrams

All the Chiltern 165s were fitted with air conditioning when they were refurbished and very effective it is too.

See page 3 of this thread for what is happening re the 166 air con system. I think I'll scream if one more person here suggests having a howling gale blowing through a coach is a suitable ventilation system. 166s are quite bad enough with one or two windows open thanks, never mind that opening them is usually the kiss of death for the air con when it is actually working.

And on the only refreshed 165 I've been ridden on so far, it was trying to close windows that was the problem. At least three in one half of the coach wouldn't shut, two due to useless latches and the other because the window seal was hanging down from the top of the frame, never mind the patches where the blue paint hadn't stuck and dribbles of sealant or glue on the panelling.

It'as air-cooling on the Chiltern 165s.....and boy, do they blow too hard - people are putting jackets ON in this weather.....

Until people understand how aircon actually works, it's pretty useless fitting it on 165s / 166s - as soon as the windows are opened, the aircon tries to condition the world & pretty soon packs up. Unfortunately, aircon plus non-opening windows or no aircon....

Or, air-con plus staff only opened windows like on the 158's and 332's (Heathrow Express units).  Another reason for having somebody else on the train other than the driver.

Could be talking out of my backside but it looks from photos as if the refurbished Chiltern units have completely sealed windows. Is that the case, and if so how come Chiltern can operate DOO trains with sealed windows if FGW can't?? Or are there staff-opened windows? Which leads me to the supplementary question: I know Chiltern services are largely (if not exclusively...?) driver-only, but do they all carry RPIs/ticket examiners/"customer service officers"?

Chiltern have sealed windows.

They operate DOO from MYB - BAN. Beyond Banbury, there's a guard aboard.

Basically, because of the nature of their franchise (i.e. much longer) they could afford the extra investment to replace the old carriage interiors which were practically identical to FGW 165's.  This included replacing all the windows with sealed ones.  The cooling system seems to work OK the majority of the time, but it is occasionally a failure which leads to sweltering conditions and no remedy (as with other fully sealed trains). 

It would be possible when the Class 166's are refurbished by FGW to very cheaply modify the windows that currently open so that they were only able to be opened by staff with a standard 'T' key - if the improved system is better than the old one that would possibly be a good option - though any failures in service on a DOO train would mean it harder to arrange for somebody to open them of course.

Do despatch staff at main stations (PAD/RDG/OXF etc) carry T-keys? If so presumably it's not totally unfeasible that they could hop on board and do the necessary before despatching. And I'm not sure there would need to be any modification other than yanking out the handles: when I've seen a window that's missing one of the handles the socket that's left behind looks like it should be operable with the square end of a T-key.

You call it air cooling, but I was going by the Chiltern website, which says air conditioning http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/about-us/our-train-fleet/

Definitely on the fridge-like side at times, perhaps more so even than in a 180.

The fundamental problem with the 166 system is that it isn't up to the job to start with, thanks to its lash-up and built-to-a-budget nature. It's almost as likely to pack up in the middle of January as July. If it could actually keep the coaches properly cooled (and heated in winter) in the first place then most people probably wouldn't reach for the windows. But I know there will always be someone who just has to open any unlocked window they see - and then sit underneath it, almost oblivious to the gale blowing over everyone else.

Fingers crossed, Wabtec can come up with something as effective and reliable for 166s as the Chiltern set-up, so you could indeed lock the windows, unless there really was an emergency, a la 158. At Oxford any problems on a terminating set would be quickly spotted, as the staff always walk through the trains to check they are empty before sending them into the sidings.

So they do....interesting, because they always *talk* about air-cooling in meetings....btw, that page throws up a login script on my PC, which I've drawn to Chiltern's attention.


Hmmm - they did work when new - and it WAS customers regularly opening windows on boarding that then blew the systems up with utmost regularity. Thames Trains gave up repairing them....I was in regular dialogue with them, suggesting that putting explanatory stickers on the windows might help.....

But I agree with the remaining parts of your paragraph....

ChrisB I think I have to disagree with you.. I have commuted on the turbos since 1992 (not sure when the air con arrived though) and on only a handful of occasions have I know the aircon to actually work..

It's interesting to know how opening the windows would break the air con too?

by letting the whole world's air in to be cooled?......

One measure that did help slightly was the green plastic tags that have been applied a few times over the years, as that did make many people think twice before they broke them to open the windows.  Over time they have all long gone, but if re-applied when on depot overnight as required then that would be a very cheap method to help. 

I'm just hoping that FGW's solution doesn't go the way of replacing the system with one that works but doing nothing with the window situation, because if that happens any money spend would be completely wasted.

I'll pass that on - but don't hold your breath.

I don't think the refresh iincludes aircon / air cooling though.

Completely agree.  Work on airconditioning systems - difficult and expensive
                            Improved window catches/plastic tags/signs - easy and cheap

The rail industry seems to have lost the art of going for the easy wins.  The tiem is right for it to be rediscovered.

In Thames Trains days (possibly left over from BR, I'm not sure), there were stickers on the opening windows in the 166s (together with the plastic seals) explaining that the coach was air conditioned and that opening the windows would stop the a/c working effectively. They had almost no effect!

Jo - the a/c will get overloaded and eventually pack up if the windows are left open because it's trying to cool the interior but there's a constant stream of warm air coming in from outside. It's analogous to leaving the fridge door open and expecting it to cool your whole kitchen (or house!) - it won't and will eventually break.

There still are.  And they still have almost no effect!

Stickers require your average troglodyte to be able to read!

The problem is, if a train is very hot and stuffy it's all very well saying "let the aircon do it's job" but it would be very uncomfortable. I wouldn't sit in a sealed car on a hot summers day hoping that the "cold" ventation setting will keep me cool - because it won't !!

Not for 165s but it does include some attempt to do something to improve the situation on the 166s - hence the set being sent to Doncaster.

If the a/c system was made a sight more effective, resulting in coaches being reasonably cool on hot days, then sticking plastic seals on the handles alongside some bright red stickers with 'emergency ventilation only' in big letters, rather than the grey things used by BR/Thames/FGW with lots of tiny writing, might persuade all but the most determined fresh air freaks to keep their hands off.


If the a/c worked properly, then the train wouldn't get very hot and stuffy in the first place, would it? I have never come across a train fitted with a/c in Britain, or abroad, that has problems like the 166s - occasional breakdowns affecting an odd coach, yes, like coach F on the 17.50 to Worcester tonight, but not an across-the-board issue afflicting an entire fleet that has been allowed to persist for nearly 20 years by a series of operators.

Fingers crossed that Wabtec can find a solution that doesn't drain off vast amounts of power or cost the earth.

Was it Wabtec who managed to improve the a/c on the 158 fleet back in the days of Wales and West/Wessex? I seem to remember that it was on its last legs for some time but was then largely dealt with - not perfect now by any means, but a good sight better than a few years back when it was unusual to see a Wessex 158 running round with the windows closed in the summer.

Agree with your comments, Will, though one thing that occured is that with increasing pressure on drivers to switch off engines when the immobilise a train, there are quite a few occasions when passengers board a train, especially at Paddington, when the a/c isn't working and it does take a few minutes after the engines have been switched on for the effect to be felt.  That might possibly cause a few people to ignore the warnings and open the windows on what would otherwise be a perfectly good set, by which time it's too late!

Hi All,

See Air con not only a problem on our trains,


Germans hot and bothered by sizzling trains Germany's reputation for comfortable trains is suffering in the heatwave Germany's high-speed trains may be known by the acronym ICE but stifling heat has sparked a furore over Deutsche Bahn's national rail services.

Crisis talks are opening shortly because air-conditioning breakdowns on trains have prompted the company to pay compensation to angry passengers.

For anyone who got medical help after riding on an overheated train Deutsche Bahn (DB) is offering 500 euros (^421) plus a ticket refund as compensation.


Full Story


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10723542

Bob- Blakey Found this about 8 mins ago see have to type quicker

So its not just the UK

I bet FGW would baulk at paying ^421 to any passenger requiring medical attention after suffering heat exhaustion.

I bet ANY TOC would baulk at that....

More public transport a/c issues.... this time from across the pond:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/20/AR2010072005721.html

Which wasn't what I said. What we have been talking about here and in other threads over the years has been the problems that afflict an entire class of trains, the 166s, and have done for pretty much every summer all their lives, due to an a/c system that isn't really up to the job to start with, compounded by having unlocked emergency ventilation windows, which, when opened, bring about the system's demise.

Germany has been suffering a heatwave, with temperatures in Berlin hitting 38C/100F (and Washington DC seems not to have been faring much better), which is around the upper limit of the temperature range the a/c on ICE trains is designed to cope with, not unreasonably in a country with a normally temperate climate. Were temperatures in the UK to get that high then I suspect that many Mk3s, Mk4s and Pendolini would suffer in exactly the same way, indeed, as i noted above, at least one HST trailer had succumbed only the other day, when temperatures were in the mid-20s Centigrade.

Just to follow up on this, as I've been told the trial will start next week with 165136 (I think) being kitted out with the new equipment this weekend.

As there was a very interesting, but increasingly 'off topic', discussion developing here, I've now split those particular posts off into a new topic, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7334

CfN.  ;D

On a 165 yesterday morning- a refreshed one...

Could hardly hear the tannoy so not fixed that, and just about made out after a very slow journey there was ' technical issues with the windscreen wipers'. got of the train and noticed what the technical issue was- one had fallen off. Also the floor was filthy and interior panels have started to come away, along with no where to put my morning cuppa now! What a joke, and good to see them falling into the same sate as they were before already. Also noticed there are a lot of rugh running units about along with most leaking air.

Sort of. The original Provincial Western allocation was 158815 - 158842 & 158863 - 155872. These had EBAC aircon which was rather unsucessfully modified to use Chilled water as the refrigerant medium. None of these units run for FGW anymore, having been replaced gradually by a fleet of ex TPex & Virgin (via TPex) 158's that use the earlier and more robust Westinghouse / Transtemp kit. The last BR Provincial Western 158's 158815-7/855/863-872 left as of December 2007.  Quite a few of the more recently aquired 158's have had Leibherr equipment fitted, which of the available 158 aircon sytems is probably the best of the bunch. I believe 166201 also has Leibherr air conditioning fitted to it as a trial. Not sure how that one is getting on in service though.

I know Wabtec gave the 158 airconditioning a good overhaul during the refresh programme though.

Sorry to quote myself twice, FA style, but it's 165135 that's got the new system installed (I was nearly right!).  Saw it doing the rounds today, but was unable to get a close-up look.  The front display was just scrolling 'First Great Western' I think, so perhaps not working fully yet.  Anyway, look out for it and pass your comments, good or bad, on here.

Had my first opportunity to see the new PIS system in action on the refreshed 166108, the second unit to be fitted, and by and large I was impressed.

The system performed faultlessly for the 2 hours or so I was with it.  The internal screens show the calling points (updating as you depart from each station) and a brief safety message - none of the never ending messages of the old system.  They're clear to read in an orange colour and scroll at just the right speed.  The messages displayed mimic the announcements being made.

The automatic announcements are from a very pleasant sounding female voice (which I appreciate is my subjective opinion) which is a new one to me - I believe it was chosen from the staffing ranks of FGW?  The delivery is a little stop-start occasionally compared with other systems (i.e.  Calling at.....Taplow, Maidenhead,..Twyford), but nothing too bad.

The following announcements are made (I may not have the wording spot-on, but you get the idea):

1) When the system is first set up at the origin station listing calling points and a brief safety message.
2) Shortly after departure from each station saying "The next station is x".
3) Shortly before arriving at each station saying "We are now arriving at x.  Thank you for travelling with First Great Western."
4) After the train stops at a station saying "Welcome aboard this service to x"
5) Before arriving at the final stop saying "We are now arriving at x.  Please ensure you take all of your personal belongings with you when leaving the train.  Please mind the gap between the train and the platform.  Thank you for travelling with First Great Western."

There's also the facility to amend the calling patterns should stops be missed out due to late running, and shortly there'll be a number of additional scripts available for the driver to select as necessary.

Pros:
*  Pleasant voice.
*  Useful displays.
*  Worked perfectly on the trip I was on.
*  Announcements are regular but brief.  Unlike some other systems which waffle on for ages - does anybody remember the original Adelante scripts which often were still playing when you arrived at the next station!?  The girlfriend refuses to travel on the Heathrow Connect trains for similar reasons as you're constantly being told to not smoke, keep your luggage in sight, that you might get penalty fared etc..

Cons:
*  Announcements are brief but regular.  No doubt some regular passengers will still be annoyed at the frequency of the announcements when they might be trying to get some shut-eye in the morning.  However non-regular passengers and those with impaired sight will find them useful.  Overall, I think the balance is about right, but I'm sure some people will disagree!
*  The system shuts off when engines are stopped.  Probably as it uses the same power supply the old system uses, but modern trains have systems that will keep working if the engines are shut down.
*  On arrival at the terminal station, the scrolling message saying you've arrived at the destination station appears to keep on scrolling and not time out - unless the engines are shut down.


I'd be interested to hear what other people think of the system.  I heard no complaints on my journey, just a couple of "Oooh, how hi-tech", and "Is this a new train?"  comments.

To be honest I will get sick of the announcements. I do think they are needed and I^m being selfish!  :D
I^m not over impressed with the work done, I^ve seen poorly fitted panelling coming off already, pink paint finger marks on windows, the lack of tables is most annoying and they aren^t keeping them any cleaner or looking after them. (two nights last week without lights being an example) However there was a  tight budget, BUT no tables!!!!! ( did I mention that already?  :D)

On my oh to regular work trips on Southeastern and Southern you become oblivious to the announcements, only switching on to them when you need to check where you are stopping next and to check you are in the right portion of a dividing train (they have a lot of those) or in the right car if getting off of a short platform

Well I was on one yesterday between paddington and ealing and the two mini table things in the first set of seats in first had already been ripped out

Not by vandals

So why?

I thought that had already been reported?....the mini-tables are going?

Well if they have been deliberately removed then its a piss poor job as it looked like they had been ripped off the walls

Not the ones I've seen....sure it was a refreshed set? Might be vandalism in an old set...

No - it was definitely a new refreshed set - blue seats in first class

The mini-tables are staying in the First Class section, so if they were missing in a refurbished set it would likely to be vandalism.  Thank you FGW for keeping them in First Class - a bonus feature that really makes the added expense of a First Class ticket worthwhile.  ::)

165128 is in traffic with the new CIS fitted, seen on Bicester duties at Oxford tonight. Also saw 165108 at Moreton-in-Marsh last night, which unfortunately seemed to be suffering an attack of the gremlins, with the scrolling display at the London end just saying First Great Western, while the rear cab was in full working order. Amused to see that the NSE route numbers still survive in the new system. Are they going to start printing them in the timetables again? Not that there ever seemed to be much logic in the way they were allocated, with 16 and 17 for most Cotswold Line workings, but a London-Moreton-in-Marsh service is 41. I forget the number for Moreton-Paddington. 42? Does anyone have a list of them?

The current drivers codes for the new system are based on 4-digits.  The old system was 5-digits with the first two being the route code and the last three telling the system what stops the train made.  Because of the hap-hazard nature of the old route codes they mostly disappeared and drivers would enter '00' so that no route would be displayed.  Now that it's a 4-digit system the old codes have been retained but because you only type in the last four digits only one of those becomes the route code. 

If you're still following me (or in the slightest bit interested) what that means is that you can only have 9 different route codes, from 01 to 09 currently displayable on the new system.  Whether the codes will be fully modified in time to have more route codes displayable remains to be seen, but at the moment only having nine choices is rather limiting!

I've noticed there's now a 166 running around with 2 cars only. Is the missing centre care related to the refurb project, or just under repair?

It has been removed for repair.

Was told by a Reading Depot Manager at the weekend that the first 166 with the new air conn is due back from Doncaster soon to be tested in service.

The rest of the fleet is to start fitment in Feb with the refurb starting in June.

We had a good discussion on how to test that the system was working when it is snowing outside.

It has been suggested that it is taken into one of the maintenance sheds and that the heating turned up to full.  ;D ;D ;D

I take it the unit with the new air-con hasn't received its refurb yet? If not let's hope that the windows are locked shut, otherwise they'll all be opened again leading us back to square one with broken air-con.

I am amazed how many people don't understand the concept. Perhaps locking them with a carriage key, so that they can be opened by guards (on routes that have them) or station staff should there be the need to. The plastic tag thingys they used to have are just pointless.

On the assumption that the new a/c actually works, then the windows damn well ought to be locked as you suggest. As far as I know the idea was always to get this set back after Wabtec had bashed it around and see that the a/c fitted the bill before they start refreshing any 166s at all.

The program that the company has means that they have to start fitting the air con in Feb to make sure that the whole fleet is refurbished on time as it has to be fitted first.

They were basically hoping that it would work 'out of the box'.

The person that I spoke to was not too sure that their timescales were practical.

Not in my experience...
Travelled last night on a refubished 165 (18.12 to Henley)
Announcement just leaving Paddington "The next station is...Slough".  No further announcements up to or on arrival at Slough
Announcement just leaving Slough "The next station is...Slough"  :D oops!   No further announcements to Maidenhead
Announcement just leaving Maidenhead "The next station is...Slough"  No further announcments to Twyford

Money well spent then   ;)

At least one of the units seems to be playing up, I forget which one, but that was the one you were probably on last night.

Think thats bad? Got on at Newbury racecourse a few weeks ago with the system playing up. 'the next stop will be London paddington'. Train only goes to Reading!!! :-X :-X

I really feel the tables should have been retained, and already some of the units are showing the usual signs of not being kept clean.

I'd imagine that would be a fault with the GPS onboard the train. As its clearly obvious that the train didnt know where it was.

The new PIS, is that the TrainFX system with Michelle and her dorset tones announcing, or is there an even newer one?

166216 running without its centre car recently - 166218 is the unit in Doncaster.

Just the six units currently fitted with the new CIS.  A few problems have come to light, ranging from the awful 'The next stop is Slough after every station' as described by 'argg' above, to the vaguely annoying 'The next station is [silence].....' when Evesham is involved, to the vaguely amusing 'Goring & Streetley'.  Hopefully all of those, and any others, will be sorted with a software upgrade due any time now, and the fitment of the rest of the fleet can continue.

How's the overall project getting on? It's been a while since I travelled on a non-refurbished 165- are there any still out there?

When's the 166 work getting underway?

There's still a handful of the 165's left to do.  For example 165128 is still to be done, yet has the new PIS fitted.

I must be unlucky in that every time I get a turbo is an un refreshed one

Just over half of the fleet has been done - if you include the 165's and 166's as a whole.

The 166's internal panel and ceilings are really grubby now, carpets and entrance mats are quite bad too

Yes, the ceiling panels attract more dirt than a 165 with the air conditioning sucking in and blowing out all sorts of particles other than air over a period of time.  Some of the entrance mats are totally bald and the carpets badly stained with various things.  Still, by this time next year virtually all units should have been taken care of - just in time to create as good an impression as possible for the Olympics.

Cynic :o ::) ............. you mean the refresh was not done for the benefit of FGW commuters  ;D

And on to the 166s...

166221 is working the 0634 Reading to Gatwick Airport this morning following its refresh - this is the first one I've seen.

I can tell it isn't its first day out because the tags on the emergency window handles are only left on a handful of windows.  A very big disappointment not to have seen the windows sealed.

The old wording "This train is air conditioned.  Pull handles down to release window for emergency ventilation only." is now above the window but will be ignored.

Did Wabtec do anything useful when they had 166218 in Doncaster for a few months?  The air seems a bit fresher this morning than usual.

Otherwise the refresh looks as expected - the new CIS is fitted (although it just said "Welcome aboard this First Great Western service" this morning).  Small tables remain - new carpet / seat coverings and repainted surfaces - no fabric on the side panel below the window.

Very disappointed about the windows.  What would be helpful is an information panel on the bulkhead (now there isn't an Edward Pond mural) which explains why the windows should be kept shut to allow the air conditioning to work.

Jonathan

166221 was refreshed and CIS fitted for the official unveiling of the project with Teresa Villiers a few days ago.  The Air Con mods have (as far as I know) not yet been applied to this unit.  The unit sent to Doncaster has been fitted with the new Air Con system - though I presume that the silly tags will go on all refreshed sets as and when they're done.

No April fools joke but chiltern railways class 172101 made an appearance at Reading today for test with the class 165/166 fleet.

Bit of a surprise but i suppose if Chiltern railways want to run a Milton Keynes to Reading service where these could be used on in the future then i cant really hurt to see if they will work with the class 165/166 fleet if it were to fail.

I have yet to travel on a refurbished class 166, but  i have travelled on  165120 when it first re-entered service and say it looked quite good.

I suspect they might be thinking of using on Bicester Town -> Oxford after May 22 - and want to check if an FGW 16x can tow it dead?....

I know the FGW drivers can't drive the Chiltern 165s, so Chiltern have a problem storing whichever unit they do use on a Saturday night when the lines north close early.

Travelled on 166221 tonight from Guildford to North Camp. Air con definitely not working. They need to seal up the windows permanently (think Chiltern 165s) once the mods have been done. Also either the 17:44 from Guildford was quieter than normal tonight, or are there a few more seats in lieu of luggage racks?

Does this mean that all the 165s are now done?

I don't think they can seal the windows - HSE regs require forced-air circulation if using sealed units - and unit failure occurs then should the circulation cease.

Not sure FGW aircon = forced-air circulation HSE definition, nor would they want to fail a unit should the aircon fail.

I thought the chiltern unit was to come down empty stock to/from Banbury and was using chiltern staff

It is - but it can't get back on Saturday night as the Rules of the Route close the line before the last Bicester-Oxford finishes.....

They can't put it anywhere where it might need to be moved either as FGW drivers aren't signed for their 165s....

Thank you chris didnt know about that

The last one is being done right now.

In the meantime, new PIS fitment has recommenced with around a dozen units now fitted (all 165's apart from 166221).  Still a few glitches, and some drivers have yet to be persuaded to enter the codes properly (it takes more time than the old system), but I'm confident they'll be eventually persuaded!

Update on refresh progress from Mark Hopwood at the CLPG agm:

All 165s are done, as are four 166s, though personal experience this week suggests one of these is the two-car 166 that is still running around (220?). Anyone know what's going on with the centre car?

As for the old chestnut, the 166 air conditioning, experience of operating 166218 (the trial unit) has shown that a better alternator is needed to power the new kit, so all the sets will get new alternators before they are equipped with the air con system.

166215 is the 2 car.
Middle carriage (58615) taken out for "long term repairs"

That must explain the centre carriage i saw when i passed reading depot on wednesday

Anyone know what happened to it? That 2 car 166 is causing merry hell on the North Downs diagrams  :(

Surprised it is being used for a three-car duty. The only times I've seen it on the Cotswold Line or at Oxford, it is working two-car diagrams

166218 is in service on the North Downs Line today - working 0634 from Reading.

The windows have been barbed up and a new sticker is shown.

"A new Air Conditioning System is on trial in this train.  Keeping these windows closed will allow the system to operate effectively and be tested, only open them if the system is not taking affect" (sic)

Notwithstanding the poor English, the air conditioning can definitely be heard above the engine noise and appears to be working.  The windows are shut for the moment.

I'll have to observe later if the windows stay shut.

Jonathan

The windows were still shut by this evening. However I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of the aircon- it was working a bit, but there was a whiff of smelly feet coming from the system- much like your car one when it needs regassing.

More work needed I think.

Mark Hopwood said at the CLPG AGM last Saturday that one class 166 Turbo has been fitted with the new air con and that it seems to be very effective. However in trials, so much power is needed that alternators had failed putting the train out of action. He said that new alternators are on order for the trains so no more 166s will get the new air con until the alternators are fitted. I wonder if the reason that someone has said that the new air con is not very good is perhaps it has been kept below full service so that the single class (166218) can still run in service.

Oh dear.. How many years has the air con been broken.. Ok I know it took Thames Trains and subsequently FGW many years to admit it was broken so wouldn't do anything about it.. But I think at least 10 years.. I imagine if they really do mend it this time, it'll be ready just in time for winter.. I do wonder why they can't get the same air con as all the other train companies (SW trains and Chiltern spring to mind for example)...

On a warm summers day a few years back I took a trip on a Chiltern turbo which had been refurbished with air con. My memory is that the air con was situated above the seats (my seat in particular) where the luggage rack used to be. It was much more powerful than the FGW units above the aisle and my poor bald patch took the brunt of the refrigeration. I had cold symptoms for several days afterwards.

Yup, problem well known! Only in places over certain seats, so difficult to fix in given time during 'B' exam, I'm told....

Nice use of the scrolling displays in the carriages of 166202 this morning working the 0514 RDG-PAD: "Welcome aboard this First Great Western service from Sorry not in service to Sorry not in service calling at Sorry not in service and Sorry not in service" or words to that effect.  ;D

Ahem, still a few problems then!  Still no Evesham included in announcements either (though it does appear on the scrolling display). 

One of the problems is that when the system is faulty a driver might not actually realise it unless he/she checks the display in each individual carriage, and the only way of clearing an error is to either reset the system by switching the engines off and then on again, or by resetting the PIS system circuit breakers in each individual carriage - neither of which may be practical even if he/she is aware of the fault.

Hehehe!

The number of times we have pulled into Reading and people have gotten on, only for the system to announce the next stop is Reading as we slowly pull out, is too many to count.

However, the best bit are the looks on all their faces when they suddenly think they are on the wrong train! One bloke leapt out his chair - I thought he was going to pull the emergency stop he was so flustered - no idea why, he got on at Reading, its pulling out of Reading, it can't possibly be stopping at Reading next!

Once its announced every stop as Reading, they soon get used to it though ::) ...

Indeed.. I was travelling from Maidenhead to Paddington one day last week and it was saying, all the way, that we were pulling into our final station stop.. which was...Oxford... dearie me...

An update on progress:

• 80% of the Turbo fleet has been refreshed and the work is progressing on schedule.
• 90% has had the new PIS fitted.  Full fitment expected by the end of next month.  Continuing software updates are slowly adressing the faults, but several still remain.
• Still just the one operational unit with A/C which is still undergoing testing.  Problems still ongoing, so it'll be next summer before anyone gets any respite from the best of the British summer at the earliest.  I remain a sceptic!

Does the software upgrade include the reprogramming of the words "North Camp"? It currently announces "Northcm".

Whats wrong with the centre car? cant do it any good being dumped outside for all this time.

Travelled on two revamped units not sure of numbers I gave up spotting years ago.

On the Taplow Padd the scroll dropped stations as we passed them and the next stop announcements when you could hear them seemed OK.


On the Slough Taplow it was still scrolling all stations from Ealing Broadway.

I only travel occasionally on the Cotswold Line but more often than not the PIS is giving incorrect information. The last two occasions that I have taken the 2-car evening stopper from Oxford towards Worcestershire it has been displaying that the train's destination is Banbury which can be very worrying to strangers getting on. On other occasions travelling N/W it has shown the destination as Oxford and only on a minority of occasions does it seem to be working correctly.

I've travelled on both FGW and Chiltern Turbos recently. The difference is appalling.

What are FGW playing at? For goodness sake:

*Seal the windows
*Install A/C that works
*Install a PIS system that works
*Clean the trains

It can't be that difficult - Chiltern's units have been a pleasure to travel on for years!

Hmm. A PIS system. Are you taking the P*SS?

:P

Although when FGW uses customers instead of passengers, they are!

Before the refresh the FGW 165/6's were disgusting don't think there had been a deep clean for years the detritus in the spaces under the seat was appalling, it saddens me to say that some of the early refresh units are starting to go the same way

Are you providing FGW with the cash? Worth remembering that they give up the franchise in 2 years...

Chiltern managed it. I'm sure First Group can spare the money.

Chiltern have a long franchise.

If you were running a business and you were shortly to lose a huge part of it to another company, you wouldn't go spending vast amounts of money investing in infrastructure. It's simple economics really...

It's been years since FGW won the franchise, they've had ages. Chiltern did it ages ago, along with the entire rest of their fleet.

Why did FGW do the refresh on the HSTs then? If they were about to "hand back the keys" in a few years?

You do if you want to please Phil Hammond and want a crack at the next bid....

Chiltern only recently (within 12 months) finishhed their 165 refresh....

You're kidding, aren't you?  Chiltern's PIS system is hopelessly unreliable.  The number of times I've spent the journey being told I'm now at London Marylebone!  The seem to have given up with it, wheraes at least the FGW system is receiving much attention and many software updates.

Indeed, and people are complaining about the aircon being too cold regularly, and one set makes a racket, which has been reported, but not yet fixed.

Really? I remember reading a press release some years ago celebrating the fact that Chiltern had become the first TOC to refurb all its trains. Perhaps some have had a second refresh. I know A/C's been fitted for years.

People always complain about A/C - it was turned down on Desiros last year. Can't please everyone. I'd rather be too cold on a hot day then be sweltering on a FGW offering.

I've been on many more noisy and PIS broken FGW Turbos than Chiltern. Several Chiltern 168s are rattley - but I suspect that's just Bombardier for you!

FGW should be wanting to spend some cash - they were warned a few years ago, and the remedial measures included refurbing the Turbos. It hasn't escaped peoples' notice that the only thing that was done for ages was the application of dynamic lines!

Interesting that, because it's not actually correct.

Before the Greater Western franchise started in 2006 FGW had already carried out a 'light refresh' on the turbo fleet during its First Great Western Link tenure: not an extensive job, admittedly, but new seat covers, floor coverings and toilets to improve on the tired and threadbare state in which Thames handed over the units. The toilets in particular are a significant improvement on what went before.

True - I'd forgotten about that.

But the announcement of a proper refresh was years ago and it is still not complete, and does not include A/C!

Horrible vibrations if you're sat under the engine as it makes the pull out tables rattle!  Other than that (and the PIS system), very good trains.

Sat under the engine? I should imagine it would be noisy and rattly there!  :P ;) ;D

.... and a bit dangerous.

 :P  Get back into the kitchen...

166206 out this morning on the 0634 Reading to Gatwick Airport, unrefreshed, but with the unmistakeable noise of the new air conditioning system (and extra stickers on the window to suggest keeping the windows shut).

Presumably the system has passed its trials and is now to be installed across the fleet?

Why can't they seal the windows? Unless the stickers are huge with LARGE RED WRITING it won't work!

Because then H&S requires fresh air to be pumped at a certain force through the carriage - and rechnically, its out of serrvice if this fails.

Ok - why not have 158 style windows.
And how do Chiltern manage?

Look - I'm sick of hearing about "unreliable AC". The fact is another TOC with the same stock solved the problem. So there is no excuse for FGW not to get it sorted.

Ditto with 158s.

For the umpteenth time, because 158s are always driver-guard operated so there's always someone with the requisite T-key to open them should that be necessary.

At a guess I suspect that Chiltern had more money to throw at the problem, but you will notice from various comments above that it's not unanimously agreed that the Chiltern a/c is always suitable or comfortable.

Sorry I dont understand this comment.  I am not aware of any such H&S requirement.

Never heard this argument before. Doesn't buy with me - surely the driver has a key and can open the windows before service.
Anyway, I only suggested it - Chiltern manage with all windows sealed!

If Chiltern had the money to throw - First Group must have it.
People always moan about AC temperature - e.g. SWT. But at least it works.

Sorry - there's no excuse.

What I find inexcusable is that nobody official ever seems to make any attempt to shut the windows on 166s. They enter service in the morning with windows open. Surely it should be the responsibility of staff to protect the investment in the new air conditioning system.

I'm back on 166206 tonight on the 2003 Gatwick Airport to Reading.  5 of the vents are open in a carriage with a new air conditioning system. I've shut some but not intervened at occupied seats. There has been ample opportunity for the windows to be shut during the day or even on the layover at Gatwick before departure.

Worse still, the refurbishment hasn't resolved the problem of broken catches and mangled frames that prevent the windows from being shut.

And ample opportunity for the first passenger afterwards to come along and open them again...

A fair number of new classes have no opening windows at all. 

Probably a good incentive to keep the aircon actually working on stuff like Desiros I suppose, although it is a quick exchange roof mounted unit, you can usually see quite a few stacked up outside Northam depot, so I dare say a faulty aircon system can be repaired very quickly.

Paul

Chiltern did not solve the problem. Their 165s did not have an air conditioning system until they were overhauled, so there was no problem to solve in the first place, which is not the case with the 166s.


I don't think Chiltern did any throwing of money - it was one of a series of carefully considered spending decisions, based on the fact that they have a 20-year franchise with a string of investment commitments written into it.

First don't have the luxury of such a long period to earn a return on money they put in. And they are actually investing a lot of time and money in trying to get the 166s right at long last. But if that effort is not to be wasted then, should the system prove its reliability, the windows will either have to be locked, with staff checking the system is functioning at either end of a journey and unlocking windows if required, or lots of robust seals that actually take some effort to break need to be provided to deter the people who will always insist on opening any window they see, whatever the weather is doing outside and the a/c is doing inside. I am quite sure that if there were windows in Mk3s, then some clown would want a 125mph gale blowing in in January.

As there's been such an interest on here regarding the Class 166's poor air conditioning.  Here's a couple of pictures which give an idea as to why your carriage isn't nice and cool when you board.

They're of the air-con display unit on the middle carriage of 166203.  They're hidden behind the panels in each carriage and, as I've mentioned previously, each carriage has three zones which all have independent sensors giving a total of nine zones per train.  This means one end of the carriage could be being heated and one end cooled depending on how the system is working.

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6142/6037435367_9065a8c8fb.jpg)

This first image shows the panel.  The row of vertical lights just give details of the state of the system, but where it gets interesting is the 3x3 block of LED's towards the bottom of the picture.  A, B, and C are the three different zones in that carriage, and the lights underneath indicate whether the system is heating, cooling or just venting the carriage.  They should vary between the three states automatically to control the temperature as required.  As you can see, this panel is 'Venting' to all three zones.  All windows were shut at the time as it was in the sidings.  The readout on the top right shows what the temperature sensors think the temperature is.  It rotates through various sensors.  The one displayed here is for the external temperature which it thinks is +23.3c.  This was yesterday afternoon, so that's probably a degree or two high, but not too inaccurate.






(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6130/6037985574_f97b037445.jpg)

This image shows that same panel a couple of seconds later.  The same story except the display now reads SA+24.8c.  Meaning that saloon area 'A' is currently 24.8c.  Given that most air-con systems chill to around the 20c mark to provide what most people consider a nice temperature you'd have thought that the system would be cooling rather than venting, but no.  A quick press of the 'Cool Test' button on the panel, which should force the system to cool for about 10 minutes, had no effect whatsoever, so the systems cool mode is obviously faulty.  No amount of opening or closing the windows would make the slightest difference on this carriage.  In fact, of all the three carriages on this set, only one zone of nine was actually cooling properly, with the 'Cool Test' not working anywhere else.







(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6037985744_36a5b93f59.jpg)

This final image shows the display in one of the other carriages.  Just to demonstrate that even if the system is able to cool, sometimes it's let down by the temperature sensors.  Same set as above, same time of day, but the system thinks that the outside temperature is only 6.2c!

If that's representative of the fleet then FGW have installed a bit of a pup of a system.

Is this the new or old system?

The old one. Only 166218 (trial set) and 166206 (going by Jonathan's experience back up the thread) appear to be fitted with new equipment so far.


This is the system that BR installed when the 166s were built.

Yes, this is the old system.  I'll have a good nose at a new system when I get chance.

Well, the Turbo refresh has now been completed, except for fitment of the new Air Conditioning equipment - that should be completed by January.  I will be very interested to see how the new system copes next summer!

166214 appears to have been fitted - no signs to note the new system but the emergency ventilators were barbed shut on Friday morning's 0634 Reading to Gatwick Airport.

Were the trials using 166218 deemed to be an success or just a bit better?

Jonathan

I'd be interested to hear what regular Turbo passengers think of the new 'APIS' information system installed since the refresh.

It's now a year since most of the fleet was installed.  Sadly, from speaking to many drivers and my own observations, the system is still proving very unreliable, and drivers are starting to lose patience with it quickly.  Recent software updates seem to correct a few faults, but introduce others, and I would say that the number of instances where it performs correctly throughout a whole journey is probably around the 50% mark.  Compare that with 99.9% with the older system.

Common faults still occurring are:

1)  Codes hang in the system after a train terminates and can only be removed by shutting down engines or resetting circuit breakers in all vehicles - which the driver sometimes hasn't got the time/inclination to do.

2)  System will stop working for no apparent reason en-route and display the same scrolling message when it froze.

3)  Some sets are nice and quiet announcement wise and some are horrendously loud.

4)  If the driver has cause to re-release the doors at a station (which can happen quite often for a multitude of reasons, especially at the busier stations), the system will often think the train has stopped at the next station and therefore be a stop ahead of itself.  Confusing to say the least!

The good news is that we are promised further software updates which will hopefully correct these issues, but I'm starting to become concerned that we're going to be faced with a system that simply doesn't do what it's supposed to do reliably enough.

I've had plenty of experience with it on the North Downs route, I find that generally the system is set up and working but it can get a bit confused sometimes. Sometimes it seems to get a bit behind and only realises where it is when it arrives at a station, then announcing all the announcements it needs to for that station, so the next station is xxx, we are now approaching xxx, FGW welcomes you aboard this service to xxx, repeating at the next station and so on. I'm not sure if the system is working on GPS or wheel revolutions, but it seems like it could be a problem with getting a GPS signal. I'm not convinced the system is that useful either, it only announces the calling pattern at the first station so passengers boarding later on might not know where the train stops and the announcements are nearly always too quiet in my experience, and sometimes they seem to have a lot of background noise on the announcement itself making them sound a bit muffled, but then manual announcements are often not any better when it comes to volume.

It's GPS based.  I guess the scrolling displays list the calling points, and to be fair to keep the announcements fairly brief it is probably best that way.

The version on SWT's 458s announces all calling points at the start and then periodically during the journey.  Not sure if it is after x number of stations or after principal ones en route.

And how many complaints has that led to?

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/south-west-trains-come-under-fire-for-on-board-announcements-1-1235900 (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/south-west-trains-come-under-fire-for-on-board-announcements-1-1235900)

I much prefer the brief announcements on the Turbo's - although that's not to say that the software won't be altered to beef them up.  I just don't think that's what people want.  Rather display all of the extra stuff on the scrolling screens which people can look at if they want to, and keep the announcements to the really important stuff.

Quite right. SWT announcements are ridiculous. I also get sick of people saying "it's the law". Rubbish - the new LM 172 (which presumably use the latest legislation) have minimal announcements. NO safety ones, NO smoking ones, NO don't leave your bags.

It's the same with stations. Now when Phil says "may I have your attention please", it could be a platform alteration, or "do not leave cases or parcels...". It used to just be the former.

There is obviously a balance to be struck. In my opinion I think that a list of stations should be announced upon departure from major stations, rather than just the original station.

166205 forming the 1703 from Reading to Gatwick Airport this afternoon.  Almost all the windows open so no change from before.

58105 is the leading carriage - cooling from the ceiling is working but doesn't appear to be counteracting the heating coming from the floor level vents.

Cooling working in the other two carriages but doesn't mean the windows are shut.

I travelled on 166221 the other morning which had signs of window ties in places but I suspect that passenger action means these don't last long.

This is ridiculous. The whole fleet should have been done years ago. Why can't FGW deliver? It's now the start of hot weather and it would be good for commuters if they weren't crammed into sweltering coaches!

I think the point is that the fleet has been done.

Problem is the same passengers as before continue to open windows and break the air conditioning (which is a bit better than it used to be and now makes quite a racket).

How do passengers break the air conditioning? by opening the windows? Surely not. If that is all it takews to break it then there is no hope.

Opening windows means the Air Con is trying to cool the whole world.............

Not surprisingly, this can lead to it's failure.............

If FGW have not replaced the windows then the job has not been "done".

On Chiltern, you cannot open the window. In a completely miraculous coincidence, the AC works and the trains are quieter.

 ::)

But when the air-conditioning fails which is always possible with any system people are going to want to be able to open the windows to get some air in. This is a particular problem on DOO trains like some of those operated by the 166s as highlighted by the failure of a Class 377 in the Thameslink tunnel when the heat became unbearable, see this thread: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=9027.0

It should be possible, at modest cost, to lock the windows electricly.
They could then be released remotely by the driver in case of AC failure.
Electromagnets for holding doors and windows shut are widely used in buildings, often for windows on fire exit routes.
In case of fire, they release automaticly so as to vent smoke and allow safe escape.

On a train, a similar system could be used in case of A/C failure, either operated by the driver, or even automated. If the A/C has been faulty for more than say 10 minutes, AND the internal temperature exceeds 24 degrees for more than 10 minutes, then the windows open.
The windows would have to be closed manually afterwards, the electromagnet only HOLDS them shut, it can not pull shut an open window.

Interesting idea there from 'broadguage' - perhaps a little too ambitious for a retro-fit though, but why not suggest it to FGW if they win the franchise as they then might be able to justify the cost?  The situation is certainly better than before, I'd say that currently around 75% of Class 166 carriages have air-conditioning that is working very well (as opposed to 1% last summer!).  However, the problem that we all saw coming (passengers opening the windows and totally negating the efforts of the system) is certainly having an effect.  This can partly be mitigated by train crew shutting them again, but if a train is running around on DOO duties, or has a guard/driver who doesn't give a toss (no shortage of those sadly), then you get the situation 'Jonathan H' describes.

The only answer is to do something with the windows!  Plastic tags like this one simply don't last as you can see:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8010/7285556112_fda2393bbe.jpg)

166206 has had all the hopper windows locked shut.  They can be unlocked with a 'T' key in emergencies (like those on Class 158s and others).  This is so the manufacturers of the system can demonstrate that their system is working as intended rather than an experiment to see if this is a better way of operating these units, but if anyone feels that this is better than allowing customers to open the windows whether the air-con is working or not might want to drop FGW a line to suggest that the whole fleet is modified as such.  This is the time to do it!

Air conditioning has got itself a bad name over the years. I used to know a professional engineer who said that when air conditioning became common many years ago it was sold to hotels and large office blocks on the basis that it could be self financing because the filters in the system would eliminate the circulation of dirt so that only dirt brought in by people would need to be cleaned, hence lower cleaning costs. However, this engineer said to me, the buildingmanagers saved money by not having air con equipment maintained properly (very often through budgetary constraints) so that filters were not cleaned and changed at apprpropriate intervals and ducting etc. swept. The result was that buildings became infected with what was sometimes called "sick building syndrome" and it was thought that the air circulation system passed around disease and infection. As a result many of the users of these building became "anti" to air conditioning and insisted on opening windows to get what they called "fresh air". A large building I used to work in, many years ago now, came up for refurbishment and it was decided to remove the air conditioning and put in many more opening windows. I believe this culture still exists and that is why some people will always insist on opening a window whether on a train or in a room in a building. I have actually seen on odd occsaions people getting on a train and opening a window before they even sit down. I therefore support the idea of controlling in some way the opening of windows that have properly operating air con.

Andrew1939 you are quite right.. However most train companies have made sure they have properly working air con so don't have windows that open at all (totally sealed windows in fact)..

FGW have experience of this with their HSTs.. It's outrageous (in my opinion) that the FGW turbos (with air con) have been allowed to be the way they are for so long without it working properly... I've given up on turbos these days mostly, although the times I've had to get one it's still been very warm..

It has to be said that FGW HST aircon is also prone to failure. It can also be affected by open windows - the droplights on the doors. FGW have signs on those doors telling people to close the windows as it saves energy. Poorly fitting and occasionally faulty vestibule sliding doors don't help the aircon either.

Indeed but HST aircon failing is very very different (and definitely not constant like the turbos seem to be)..

If you travel(led) on the turbos twice a day every day you soon get to see how bad it is.. Which is why I try not to now.. But that does limit my train options rather :-)

In the summer if I have the choice I will avoid 166's the most practical thing FGW could have done during the refresh was to have replaced all of the windows in the 166 with one with hopper vents like the 165's. 

The annoying thing is, not mentioning it for the first time in this thread, the new air-con system is much better and would work the majority of the time if windows were kept shut.  However, with passenger opened windows it is usually rendered useless as soon as someone decides to open one of them.  The best air-conditioning in the world would struggle to keep a Turbo carriage cool with 8 windows wide open, and it seems that prolonged running with the windows open makes the system give up, so that even if you close the windows you have to reboot the system for it to start cooling properly again. 

Hence the suggestion that what is being done on 166206 might be at least trialled for the rest of the fleet to see if the passengers prefer it, and not prove that the system does work to make sure the manufacturers receive their pay check.

This is good news and, if I were the manufacturer of an air conditioning system I'd want to prove that it works otherwise it rather defeats the point of changing it.

I am aboard 166209 on the second service out of Gatwick this morning - first working of its day - rear coach air conditioning is working fine yet three windows were open when I boarded, presumably either because of passenger action or because the handles are loose. I hope locking the windows leads to something better.

The sooner FGW do what Chiltern do the better.

*Install a system that works
*Seal the windows shut. None of this silly tape. Either replace with solid glass or lock them shut. (preferably the former)

Travelling on the Chiltern Turbo is a pleasant experience in the Summer.

I cant support fitting permanently sealed windows to these, or indeed any trains.
Even the best air conditioning can fail, as can the engine or other power source that drives the air conditioning.
Being able to open the windows in such circumstances is important and on a hot day could be a lifesaver.

The windows should of course be secured shut normally so as to allow the air conditioning to work properly.
Ideally the windows should be electricly locked as I suggested in an earlier post.
If this is considered  to be too complicated, then at least fit locks that require a carriage key to open them, as has been done on the class 159s.

So how do Chiltern/SWT etc get away with having sealed windows then? I think it's because their air conditioning is far superior to First Great Western's  ::)

SWT's 159s and the 158s were built that way.  As they were not going to work Driver Only Operated routes the Guard could always be on hand to open the locked windows if the air-con failed.  As for Chiltern, they could justify spending much more money on their refresh as they hold the franchise for another 10 years, not (potenially) another 1 year!  See reply #65 to this thread.

I was on this last night, and it was a hell of a lot better than before - definitely made an improvement, although it wasn't exactly hot yesterday!

Travelled on 166206 this morning. Yes, it's cooler on board, but the condensation was dripping steadily from the ceiling panels. The carpet was somewhat soggy in places.

Yes, dripping water from the ceiling has also been a bit of a problem with the new system, and the power required (as 'insider' mentioned in another thread) means that if it is working full pelt in all three vehicles then there is a noticeable drop in engine power of around 15% which makes keeping time rather more difficult - not sure if there's an easy cure to that one!

Cure both problems by removing the aircon and fitting 165 drop vent to all widows

What about women whose husbands are still alive?  :P ;) ;D

How exactly does opening a window and letting hot air from outside in help?

Yes, there is a breeze when the train is moving, but not when the train is stationary.

If there is no functioning air conditioning, then opening a window is better than leaving it closed.
If the air conditioning has been defective for some time, or if none is fitted, then outside air will normally  be less hot than that inside.

Without ventilation or air conditioning the inside air will rapidly become very humid, this makes it feel hotter still since high humdity impairs the natural cooling of the human body.
Air conditioning reduces not only the temperature but also the humidity (unless already low), therefore in the absence of funtioning air conditioning, opening of windows will reduce excessive humidity.

At high temperatures, moving air is more comfortable than still air, and again in the absence of working air conditioning the opening of windows helps.
On a moving train, considerable internal airflow results and conditions might be acceptable even on a hot day. When stopped there will still be a slight air movement, better than nothing.


Old trains with numerous large opening windows were relatively comfortable without air conditioning, at least when moving. The drawbacks being the admission of noise and dirt, and in steam days smoke from the engine.

Chiltern Units don't have air conditioning but air chillers. Makes them easier and quicker to replace when the go wrong.

There may be some subtle difference, but for all practical purposes they are the same thing.
All use electric or other power to reduce air temperatures to significantly below the outside air temperature.

Some types are much more readily repaired or replaced than others.

And I believe I was on this tonight - and it was dreadful. The windows were locked shut and the air con was not working (or more accurately not coping). Thankfully Ollie stepped up on Twitter after my complaint and got someone to open the windows at Didcot - slightly too late for me, but I am sure everyone else appreciated it, seeing as many seemed to be trying to open them!

Many thanks (again!) for your help Ollie - that has to be one of my best experiences with FGW in any capacity!

Happy to help, sorry that I couldn't get them opened earlier :)

I'm reliably informed that, once the red tape has been cut through, ALL of the Class 166 fleet will get their window locked shut - with the ability to open them using a 'T' Key by either the TM or Driver.

The latest software update has gone some way to addressing many of the faults with the APIS system.  It seems the biggest problem of the system suddenly failing to update and then out-of-date information hanging in the system until the engines were switched off or the system rebooted has largely been solved.

A welcome addition is that announcements listing the full calling points of the train are now given after stopping at the larger stations (Ealing Broadway, Slough, Reading, Oxford, Worcester Foregate Street).  Connections at Slough/Maidenhead/Twyford are now announced with the correct inflection in the voice, which is a minor point but used to annoy me!

There's still the odd issue to correct, but a marked improvement on where we were before the last update.

It still gets its knickers in a twist at Farnborough North going towards Reading, announcing it as North Camp (well actually as "Northcm"- that still needs to be sorted).

They really need to include the crossing safety warning for Farnborough North as well- it would save the guard having to do it manually each time.

I thought that the new information system on Turbos was GPS based.  However, I no longer think this is the case.

A couple of weeks ago, I was travelling on a local train to Oxford.  It thought Didcot Parkway was Radley and then announced the next calling point as Oxford.  When we were slowing down for Radley, the system told us that we were approaching the final destination of Oxford and advised passengers to have their tickets ready for inspection.  This is the first time I have seen the system getting ahead of itself, although quite often, it announces that the next calling point is one which we have already passed.

Also, on several occasions, I have seen the screen displaying the train's destination, for example, as "Great Malvern", when we have been heading in the opposite direction towards Oxford.  Presumably, this is because the driver has forgotten to reset the system.

It is GPS based, but it doesn't always work particularly well.  A good way of knowing if the GPS is working is if it announces the station stop as the train is arriving at the station.  Whether GPS is working or not, before the software update, the system sometimes got a station behind itself or stopped working completely for no obvious reason - that appears to have been largely solved now. 

The system getting a station ahead of itself was a result of the driver having to reopen the doors at a station en-route.  The GPS didn't seem to recognise that fact and assumed the train had stopped at the next station.  Not sure how successful the software update was in solving that issue.

The wrong destination showing is a result of the system not terminating the route correctly when Great Malvern (or wherever) was reached.  That often means a new route can't be entered until each circuit breaker is reset on the train (one in each carriage) or all the engines are switched off.  Depending on who the driver/guard is, some can't be bothered to do that.  Again though, since the software update this seems to happen much less frequently.

So, still a few niggles, but much better than before.

There is a piece in the new issue of RAIL (715) - available to subscribers now and in the shops on Wednesday 6th Feb - that the 165 and 166 fleets are to get another refurb with disabled toilets fitted.

(As an aside the same issue also has a feature on the Night Rivieria sleepers)

Is that an immediate refurbishment? It does seem a little strange to refurbish them again now when they are likely to be refurbished again when they move from the Thames Valley with electrification. It could be that the refurbishment is simply fitting the disabled toilet, and possibly two disabled spaces as well, which is what is required. It won't do any good for the seating capacity though.

I'd guess that would be the case, I reckon about 8 seats will be lost with a fully accessible disabled toilet and possibly a couple more with disabled spaces near it - though if they use the same excellent design of disabled spaces that Chiltern installed when the refurbished their Class 165s a few years back then with the use of tip-up seats only a further couple of spaces are lost (if the disabled space remains unoccupied).

8 seats will be a lot on the 2-cars in particular, seems odd the work couldn't be done at the same time as transfer away from the Thames Valley, but then I guess it would be getting tight for the 2019 deadline, especially since so much other stock also needs modifying.

Includes modification to the gangway entrances from the vestibules as they aren't wide enough....presumably just into wherever the disabled seating is being provided.

I'm not sure if they've all been done yet, but a fleet modification is currently underway with the passenger operated window handles being removed from the Class 166 fleet.  This should give the air-con a better chance of operating properly, and I'll be watching closely whe if the warmer weather arrives!

I have noticed recently that all the 166s I've been on have had the window handles removed, and even though it isn't the greatest test of the air-con's effectiveness at the moment, they did all seem to be cool.

Having suffered one last year, I do hope there is a good, timely procedure in place to deal with this when it fails (which it will). Although Ollie very kindly managed to resolve the issue when the Maidenhead service arrived at Didcot, it didn't really help everyone suffering in the meantime. Additionally, the evening services (which are the ones most effected) seemed to have been awfully busy the past couple of months*, which is not a good sign come "summer".

I don't suppose the drivers can carry a key ? :)

* As an aside, there is quite often some FGW guy on the evening services, gets on at Reading (not sure where he gets off), and all he does is walk through the train counting passengers on his little clicker. Only noticed it a couple of months ago.

Most railway staff carry a square key.

They're awfully useful.....:-)

Indeed.  All drivers and guards/TM's/conductors do.  They're the ones that will be opening windows in the case of failure.

All drivers and guards/TM's/conductors do
As do(should) rubber wheeled drivers.
Older drivers issued many years ago; around six months ago a new issue was made to all drivers.
Assume our keys are identical to the rail ones?

That's good to know, thanks!

I was on a 166 last night, the windows were not locked shut, but only one had been opened - and the carriage was already getting pretty warm (certainly was not "comfortable"), and it wasn't exactly hot last night....

A word of advice that I've posted on here before, but Turbo HVAC (Heating, Ventilation and Air-Conditioning) works on three separate zones in each carriage, so on a 3-car Turbo there are nine different zones.  If one part of a carriage is too hot or cold, then chances are that another carriage (or even the other end of that carriage) will be OK, so do move down the train to check.

Ah! Interesting, I must have missed that gem before :) Thanks, will bear in mind for next time.

Looking at a couple of posts to FGW via Facebook.. it looks like locking the windows hasn't made the air con work.. It's just made the passengers hotter..  On certain trains at least.. I am not saying "I told them so" honest.. It's just a thought in my head currently  ::) ::) ;D

I have found that generally the air-con on 166s is a lot better now. Of course the system will still fail from time to time.

I agree completely - the system is far better than it ever was and locking windows shut prevents the system from being made useless by passengers opening them even when it is working.  By and large I've been impressed with its reliability, though there will always be the odd faults here and there of course, and today will be a test as it's the hottest of the year so far.

And the most reliable air-con of all, sitting at the "back" of a 165 with all the hopper windows open  8)

Until you stop moving!  :P

I've only been on two 166s on recent warm days (and didn't try a different carriage on either) but both of them were noticeably hotter than outside :(

I was on one of these trains on Saturday and the Air condition was actually working which was so nice.. I did notice however that there are still signs on the windows to say use the handles to open the window for emergency ventilation, even though the handles themselves have gone  ::)

I noticed this morning that the 06.50 Twyford-Henley included 166205 which had one DMCL replaced by the equivalent from unit 165121. Would this affect the working of the a/c in the other two cars?

It shouldn't make any difference as the HVAC system is all independently controlled from each vehicle.

Another software update has been applied to the Turbo APIS system.

The good news is that is seems to have made further improvements to the reliability of the system, so hopefully the days of the wrong station being announced are finally over.

The bad news is that there are now 'information' announcements after some station calls.  For example, after Hayes, Southall, West Ealing, Ealing Broadway and Acton Main Line there is a long rambling announcement about the Monday-Thursday evening service curtailment.  So, if you're on a stopper you have to put up with that after every stop which is bloody annoying, and also misleading as it says "From February" rather than "From February 2013", so people might be misled into thinking that is from next February.  A similar announcement is made at Reading about the overbridge closure "From March..." - old information in my opinion and should not be announced more than once per trip (if at all), and perhaps only displayed on the internal screens.  Mind you, the grammar on those internal screens is pretty terrible with missing full stops, 'Network Rails' rather than 'Network Rail's' and wrongly spelt stations (Acton Mainline).

Shame really as we have a nice little system without too long and frequent announcements that plague other types of train, and the number of announcements is slowly creeping up to annoying levels - still, hopefully the reliability has now been improved.

Seems bizarre to add more announcements to the automatic system just as manual announcements are being cut on most services.

Excatly.  Regular Turbo commuters, please let FGW know if you find these announcements excessive!

I noticed recently that there seems to be an extra announcment on the turbos about the overbridge closing on the 1st of March 2013 (or something like that).

Now I have been on plenty of turbos in the last year but don't remember hearing that until recently.

See my post #256.

Ahh sorry II - I was doing a quick catchup having been absent for a while but I totally agree with you

Dave

I was on a 166 between Thatcham and Reading last night (Thurs 11th) and wanted to report that the aircon seemed to be working pretty well on what was a warm evening. Definite surge of hot air coming in when the doors opened at Reading :)

I was in the leading car of a 166 the other day and the air con was not having much effect, as I moved into the centre car it was almost fridge like.

Seems to be quite hit and miss.

My partner, who doesn't use the train that often, decided to use it yesterday. She was not at all impressed that the windows were all bolted closed, that the aircon was not working (or having any effect at least) and the carriage was like a sauna.

I explained why, told her to speak the the driver to get them opened next time, or to move carriage on the off chance it might be working better - so at least she is better prepared next time.

Its all well and good us regulars knowing these tips, but for the average joe, I really do feel sorry for them having to deal with these problems.

Thankfully my morning service seems to be aircon (while its cooler anyway), and the evening service seems to all have the (opened) windows - so things have been reasonably comfortable for me this week!


Also, ironically, the train I was on last night had the station announcements out of sync with the stations again. I say ironically as II mentioned it had been updated few days ago to hopefully improve things, yet this is the first time I have seen it out of sync for quite some months!

Yesterday I got two 166s and the air-con was working on both!

Took a short journey from Hayes to West Drayton on Friday evening (12/7). All windows in the 166 carriage I was on were open. Some people using makeshift fans out of magazines. Didn't look to see if windows in other carriages were open.

What would be useful would be if there was some way of someone checking if the air con is working before the train starts out for the day, and at various points during the day too... It's all very well and good saying the driver can open the windows, but when you're crammed in on a train where it's not working 1) How do you get to the driver and 2) how does he get to the windows (even if he agreed to it which I imagine he might not)...

As you passed through several stations, you heard it ad nauseam. Had your journey been to the next station only, you would have heard it once per trip. The announcement would have to be made after departure from every station to be sure of every passenger hearing. Of course, there is the question of whether it needed making at all...

I heard it this morning on departure from Twyford on a London-bound train, obviously something wrong with the system. Incidentally I spotted 5 different 166s this morning and each of them had most if not all of their windows open.

Are the turbos being refreshed by bombardiet out in Essex?

I'm certain I saw an FEW turbo parked in the way through this morning

I have been on 3 class 166 over the last few days and not one had working air-con.
Is it my imagination but does the class 166 have less opening windows than class 165?
What made it worse was the 166 tonight replaced the diagrammed 180. And I notice there were 2 180's berthed in the up carriage sidings in Oxford, I guess one if not both had failed.

I am going to offer Bombardiet to Charles Wells Brewery as a name for a new low calorie beer. I-Phone update, perchance?

Yes, they have less opening widows - only eight per carriage.

Reliability wise, this prolonged hot spell has seen more and more fail as each day goes on.  I reckon about 15-20% of carriages (note carriages, not complete units) are currently working effectively.  Almost all the rest now have the windows opened.  Again I stress, if it's not working in one carriage, it might well be working OK in another so check to make sure.  If the windows are shut there's a good chance it's working OK in that carriage - if not tell the driver at the first opportunity.

Whilst 20% is not exactly a great percentage, it's far better than the 0% that worked before the system was altered, and this is a once-in-every-ten-years heatwave.  Looking optimistically about the situation, at least it will provide plenty of work for the engineers, who will hopefully be able to correct the outstanding issues in time for next summer.  The other option is to gently forget about the new system and we'll end up where we were with the old one, so let's hope that modifications are possible and will be made.

It looks like I was being a little optimistic and from observations over the last couple of weeks the system still gets 'lost' just as much as it used to.   >:(

What with that, the as yet unimpressive air-conditioning modifications, and the badly designed toilets (which block too easily and run out of water too quickly), the refresh programme has so far delivered very little other than new seats covers and less grimy interiors.

What did you expect from a company that has lost interest in that part of the franchise.  The interiors are getting grubby again which mirrors the other First trains sets in the SE (FCC Thameslink)

Best answer to the 166's, as I have always said, is turn them into 165's i.e. put in hopper windows through out and remove the air-con

Looking at the comments on FGW facebook page again it looks as if they are frying more passengers than they are cooling on these trains.. I just wish they would sort it out before they really make someone ill.. :o

I agree, but that is a lot of windows to replace. Would probably cost a fair bit, but then how much has tinkering (and not achieving much) with the air conditioning cost.

In contrast the air conditioning on the SWT 444's and 450's works a treat in my opinion (but then there are no opening windows to mess the system up).

444's 455's 166's 165's? What are those ?

Spare a thought for all those in the Bristol area who have had to put up with 142's 143's 150's 153's and the high density HST's for so long ! For a treat I always try to catch the 'borrowed' SWT 158 wherever it is performing for the light red and airy interior. The FGW refurbished 158's used between Cardiff and Portsmouth can get a bit claustrophobic with all that dark blue.

For the last few days I have had a thermometer in my bag (like you do) on short trips from Wokingham to Reading, Oxford, and Swindon. It's a bit slow-reading and it isn't possible to get a truly representative reading, but it gives something to set against subjective observations.

The trains split into the obvious good and bad guys: North Downs Line 166s bad, HSTs, 180s, and Waterloo 458s good. The good guys all had temperatures of 23-24 degrees, but the 458s felt much cooler, even a bit chilly if you come in from outside with lots of bare skin. I think that's due to the powerful air blast from the ceiling, compared to the HSTs which feel particularly comfortable. I can see the extra cooling power is needed when a train gets crush-loaded with sweaty commuters at Waterloo, but it should be possible to reduce this (and the power consumption) at other times. Chillers have to run 100% or nothing, and are best not cycled off and on too often, but if there is more than one per carriage a two-level selection ought to be easy to do.

The 166 was sitting at Reading in P5, pretty well shaded, but was only powered up 3 minutes before leaving. Everyone felt it was warmer than outside, but in this one the windows appeared to be held half shut by bolts. The temperature started at 28-29 and was rising all the 10-15 minutes was on it, to about 31, even with with some airflow when we were moving. I was on another with more windows more open, which was better, but impossible to get a reading on. None of the trains was loaded above 75%.

With regards to the airflow in the sauna, I mean, class 166's when the windows are open - standing in the rear entrance to the middle saloon can offer some decent airflow.

Was on a 377 today out of Victoria positively (or is that negativity) freezing  :o  was like hitting a brick wall when I got off  ;D

Return journey was on a 319 ....................... air con on those is the same as the 165's only effective at 30 mph plus  ;D

Aircraft air conditioning and toilets are major items that have to work and cost a fortune. For trains, it all seems a bit hit and miss. If some trains have aircon that works, why are trains still built with inferior systems? Or are they supposed to be more advanced, but don't work as designed? It seems that the answer could lie in remembering these things when writing the specifications.


I didn't realise there were so many non-opening widows on trains. I shall look out for them, and maybe ask one out for a Bombardiet. Oh, the joys of predictive text!

It's ridiculous, there is no excuse for poor air con. Chiltern's Turbos are fine and now have NO openable windows - why can't FGW do the same?

I travelled on a Chiltern 165 earlier in the week, followed by a FGW 165 later on in the day.  The difference was so noticeable that they hardly felt like the type class of train!  Although the air con was switched on, the FGW was still hot enough that I felt uncomfortable.

FGW class 165 trains don't have air conditioning, it's only the 166s that do.

One of the reasons why Chiltern's 165 air conditioning work is because it is a modern system that was custom designed for the trains it was fitted and has been maintained thoroughly since installation.

A bevy of 165's on the North Downs Line yesterday on the semi-fasts (usually 166's). Very comfortable with all the windows open.

Think there must have been a unit failure or two.

Because Chiltern were required to do the work by their franchise agreement?

That is a (poor) excuse but not a good reason in the slightest.. FGW should be ashamed of themselves.. They've had approximately 10 years to do something and they've not done much other than trying the easiest options..

I'm sure they make a hefty profit and really need to use some of it to sort it out..

I was on a train tonight that made me hotter (whilst sitting very very still) than walking 20 minutes home when  I got off that train..

I think they won't do anything about it and I know they're not bothered.. But still they take my money  >:(

FGW make some quite substantial losses. The government also pays out a net subsidy on the FGW franchise, as it does on all franchises other than First Capital Connect. If the government agreed to subsidise FGW more then they could install a decent air-conditioning system. That's what happened on Chiltern, by including a more expensive refurbishment in the franchise agreement the government agrees to take a smaller premium or pay a greater subsidy.

Well that surprises me..Seeing the amount of people per train in peak and the cost of tickets...

That's the reality and the rather perverse way the railway is financed.  Thames Trains and its heavily commuter based operation was just about breaking even when it was absorbed by First Group, but a package of improvements (including bringing the 180s onto the route) meant a subsidy was required for the LTV routes - I think it was around ^100m over two years?  I'm not sure how much of a profit the LTV routes currently make, if any, but it's counterbalanced with the loss making routes at the western end of the franchise.

As for the air-con, as I said before, let's give it another year - we're not yet out of one of the most prolonged heatwaves of recent years.  The contractors who installed the original system will have no shortage of faults to fix, but it remains the case that a few carriages in the fleet are still cooling very nicely - for some reason it seems to often be the middle carriage, so (unlike the first system which never really worked) at least there's a fighting chance that by next summer faults will have been resolved.

As for LVT profitability if FGW were to actually carry out travelling ticket inspections and more gate line checks they might actually get some revenue; the amount of people who blatantly travel between Burnham and the Marlow branch stations and places like Hayes and Burnham and even to Windsor (provided they don't exit at Slough) is farcical even at Maidenhead all the dodgers know they can get away with walking through the Shoppenhangers Road entrance most of the time without being challenged.  And then there is the total disregard of sitting First Class.

The air-con on the 166 needs removing and a full set of opening windows installed.

Indeed.. I can only remember one ticket check in the last few months in the morning.. And I've got a good memory..

There are slightly more in the evenings as I tend to go for one of the two HSTs to Maidenhead (to avoid death by being fried) and they do tend to check tickets more on them in the evenings (but not in the mornings)..

I recently did a week of daily travelling between Thatcham and Brentwood Essex . Ignoring the tube segment this involved 3 journey segments between Thatcham and reading, reading and Paddington ad Liverpool street and Brentwood (a total of 6 journeys per day)

Whist I accept that most platforms at Paddington are gateline protected at no point during my week of travel was my ticket checked once.

Mrs FT, N! has beaten a path to and from Swindon regularly, and reports likewise. Not only that, but the gateline is often open when she gets back to Temple Meads.

The reason that there are no ticket checks is because the trains are DOO. When DOO is introduced it is largely as a cost saving exercise, so NSE must have believed at the time it was introduced that it would cost them less in loss revenue that it would to employ guards. The unprofitably of FGW is at the level whereby collecting extra revenue would make little difference anyway. The cap and collar regime doesn't incentivise FGW to collect more revenue anyway. The DfT covers 80% of revenue below the crazily optimistic targets FGW set when they won the franchise but the DfT won't cover 80% of the cost of employing more RPIs.

I partly agree with the observation regarding DOO but some legs of my journey are defiantly not DOO and on occasions have arrived at Paddington  on platforms where there is no gateline

By and large if the train isn't DOO there should be ticket checks, but there are still lots of reasons why they might not take place. And ticket checks between Reading and London in that direction on HSTs are certainly rather scarce.

In other words, if it costs 200 pounds per day in salary and other costs of employment and provision of what's needed to do the job for each, then each RPI would have to collect 1000 pounds just to break even.

It goes wider too.  If it costs 400 pounds to enhance a particular train, then the farebox has to take an extra 2000 pounds more for that enhancement to break even, unless there's another non-revenue funding source available.

Interestingly last night I was on a service with all the windows bolted shut. By the time we got to Twyford I thought I was going to faint it was so bloody bad, so I dragged myself to the middle carriage, where low and behold it was a lovely temperature. Something is seriously wrong with these units!

As an aside, while they are "fixing" them over winter, how about adding some temp sensors to either alert the driver when the temperatures are getting dangerously high, or to automatically open the windows when the system fails (or clearly isn't working)...

Oh, and the irony (advert seen on one of the non-working systems last week) ....

I travelled on a unit that was the same yesterday.  Could have been the same unit I suppose, but the middle carriage seems to be your best bet for some reason!

Auto opening of windows isn't possible.

Exactly, and therein lies one of the reasons cap and collar has been scrapped for future franchises.

Actually opening the windows automaticly in case of air conditioning failure whilst not actualy impossible, would be hugely expensive and unrealistic. It would probably be cheaper to fix the AC.

However locking the windows electricly and unlocking them when the AC fails is relatively easy and I have previously suggested just that.

Electromagnets to hold doors or windows either open or shut have been available for years. Holding the windows shut if the AC works would give it more of a chance, and a simple electrical circuit would release the windows in order that passengers may open them when the AC does not work.

The control could be either automatic, or under the control of the driver.

When the AC was mended, then someone would have to close the windows. The electromagnet can not pull the window shut, it can only lock an already shut window.

Drivers bare the brunt of passengers frustrations when it comes to air conditioning (and heating), but whilst they receive a bit of flack there isn't a lot they can do to change things (other than unlock windows). Drivers have no control over what the temperature of the air conditioning is, and they have no way of knowing what the temperature is inside the carriages either.

If conditions inside the train are that dangerous, then the solution to a dangerous train is to simply take it out of use and cancel it.

All this area is penalty fare, would not take much of a blitz to sort it and then maintain it.  You are possibly right that there is no incentive for FGW yet another shoddy Df(a)T contract

Been annouced over on UK railforums that Railcare have gone into administration.
Dont know what this will now mean for the FGW class 165/166 refurbishments to meet new acessibility regulations

Hopefully, the administrators will keep the company working on the contract, whilst they look for a way of sorting things out more permanently.

More details, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23520881):

Business is far from easy, they tell me, but one would have thought that most firms fold for lack of contracts, rather than because of them. Getting a contract like this one singed is usually enough to see the MD sigh with relief, mop his brow, and phone the shipyard to say the yacht is still on. It looks as if they may have been holding out for a deal, and blinked first. If a German company was at one time interested, another German (or French or Italian or Spanish or..) may be interested again. Hopefully, the administrators will keep this job alive.

As for Brother Crow's comment, the Government can just sit on its hands. It has sat on them, and other peoples' hands, time and again. Sometimes, the Conservative half of the political marriage made in Heaven may sit on the hands of the other half. Whitehall has, however, realised that it has been had over by the multinational computer companies, something FT, N! first told them in 1984. Now, we read in our papers of how the Government has a completely new strategy for digital Britain where we directly employ some kidz in hoodies to do, well, stuff. Apparently, the private sector quoted ^30K to amend a logo, but our man(?) with the non-Whitehall haircut, and the unseasonably pale skin did it in 15 minutes.

I was a civil servant at the time the government decided to "outsource", and I know the progression. I have also been involved, in a non-programming way, with software development in certain crucial areas of public service. Now, the emphasis seems to be on in-house IT. Maybe that will transfer to hardware, especially after that Radio 4 programme about the perils of "Casualisation". BroCro may find that his opinion is justified, after all.

I didn't get any hits on "CIRAS" in this thread, so maybe it is worth putting in a link to this from February 2012: http://www.ciras.org.uk/media/92699/50255_heating_and_air_conditioning_on_class_165_and_166_units.pdf (http://www.ciras.org.uk/media/92699/50255_heating_and_air_conditioning_on_class_165_and_166_units.pdf). It's not news, but does contain an official FGW statement.

I had a close look at a 166, to try and work out how its system might be configured. What I think is...

If it really is an integrated HVAC system, and it visibly has four cabin air units in the roof per carriage, then presumably they are fed by a common cold fluid circuit from an underfloor package. That would presumably use a direct engine-driven chiller, and engine heat (at floor level and possibly to heat the fluid too).

The four roof-mounted units should be able to take either external or mostly internal air to heat or cool, and ought to make the choice based in the relative temperature of those. I suspect they may not make this choice well, if at all. They also need to choose between a low and high fan speed, but observation suggests they have only one speed.

A high fan speed and external air could help with initial cooling on start-up when stationary, and even replace the hoppers when moving if the interior has not cooled yet. You might think the fan power must be more than the drag of the open hoppers; I'm not at all sure it is.

The end carriages have three compartments to manage, which may explain why this passenger cabin cools worse than in the central carriage. There are some specific requirements on the driver's cab ventilation, and isn't the cooling in first class a lot better than in standard? Finally, while the central carriages are better, the cooling output is inadequate even here.

Looking back at what FGW say in the CIRAS report, it is unclear whether the roof units have been changed; I suspect not. Also, this does suggest that it's not even minimally clever. Basically, they were fixing a reliability problem, not the lack of cooling power of the system.

RailUKForums (http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=87732) is reporting today that 166202 has been sitting at Worcester Shrub Hill for nearly a week with a seized final drive and "it's not going anywhere in a hurry".

Yes, it's in a bit of trouble and will need rail skates to move it or extensive repairs on site I believe.  It's blocking the 'Long Siding' at Worcester which is a bit awkward as despite being a long siding it can't accommodate a Turbo and a HST and two HSTs sets are booked in it every weekday evening for a short while to await their next duties.