Great Western Coffee Shop

I've just read on another forum (caveat: no independent verification) that FGW are putting up signs in the HST First Class vestibules warning anyone standing there that they must be in possesion of a First Class ticket, or they will be charged the full First Class fare for their journey.

I appreciate that there are a few HSTs that are completely rammed in Standard (usually ones to holiday destinations in the summer) but it is rare, even in the evening peak to see all seats taken in coaches A-E as well as standees cramming every available space in Standard Class.

It appears that the majority of the standees that crowd the HST First Class vestibules out of Paddington in the evening are travelling to Reading (or Slough and maybe Maidenhead/Twyford) and just being lazy. Board a carriage nearest the concourse at PAD and disembark nearest the exit at RDG.

If I buy a Standard Class ticket, I travel in in that section. I'm betting one of the the most common excuses TM's get when attempting to move people out of First Class is "But Standard Class is full....." How many using this excuse have walked all the way down the platform to check, I wonder?

So bring it on I say, lets just hope FGW back up the signage with consistent enforcement.

I too was intrigued when I read this, however for the life of me cannot remember where!

Certainly thee is a perception of over crowdedness if vestibules at the barrier end of Paddington are full, when most likely there are seats in A!

See also http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6419.msg63559#msg63559  ;)

Quite often I see people get on at 1st class and claim it's busy in standard and try to stay there be it standing or sitting. Realistically though as can be heard from the announcements is that coaches D-E are ufll whilst the other carriages have space but people are unwilling to move down the train. However, when the train is genuinely full I have seen 1st class coaches de-classified to ease overcrowding but obviously this decision can't be made lightly as they do not want to upset people who have piad a premium to travel 1st class

As mentioned before some passengers try this on every day between Swindon and Bristol. They will be easy pickings for any penalty fare inspector once this comes in on the route, as almost by definition everyone standing in that area will be liable (as if they were a 1st class passenger they would be sitting down).

I suspect once someone has been PF'd for it they will think twice.

FGW are on the war path with first class abuse now thanks to numerous complaints from FC passenegrs, and with the extension of Penalty fares areas many people will unfortunately be learning the hard way soon!

Oh good. There are also colleagues of mine who think it's OK to walk through an open barrier at Swindon and out the other end at Bristol in the evening sans billet, and wonder when some of us criticise their behaviour. So I'm quite looking forward to PFs in some ways.

Good, often people standing in the vestibule area tend to make a lot of noise because they are competing to be heard against the noise of the train which comes into the carriage because the door keeps opening. If you pay extra for something you should expect to get what you pay for and for me that is a bit of peace and quiet.

Whilst we are on this subject, and sorry to sound snobbish, I would love to ban the procession that takes place through first class on every departure out of Paddington. People really should walk down the platform. The only way I can see this being solved is to have 1st at the opposite end but this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum with the conclusion drawn that this would not find favour with many 1st class passengers. When a train is in reverse formation it is amazing how much quieter first class is at the start of the journey.

Along with the procession through H-F (which I also find annoying!) can we amend the PF rules to include a penalty for nicking the newspapers which are for FIRST CLASS PASSENGERS?

 :P ::) ;)

Best way to stop that is for the customer host to hand them out, then collect them at the end of the journey.

You know something - think I've complained over the same thing many a time - and often accused of being a snob or a first class bigot!  Not by anyone here but by other fora members..........

thankfully the problem is now getting wider recognition

How many staff does the average HST have on board these days? Maybe a good old fashioned meet and greet from the on board team and a quick glance at tickets woud keep everyone in the right place.

Every HST during the week has a 1st Class Customer Host for the core of it's journey (before 7pm), though from my observation they have no remit to do anything other than serve from the trolley. That feels wrong to me, though no doubt there are reasons why.   

I hope that this rule will be enforced, apart from the issues already raised, standing in the vestibules of F + G impedes the work of the restaurant staff on the 18-03 which I use regularly.

I believe that first class should be at the country end as was suggested, in order to reduce the endless parade of rucksacks and baby carriages through first class.

Maybe FGW should do a survey, if they haven't done already, asking First Class passengers if this is something that they would consider. It would probably cut down on those 'trying it on' sitting in first until they are moved on as it moves the temptation further down the train by which time they would have found a seat in standard. The buffet car also tends to act as a barrier. Seems to work fine on EMT having first at the country end.

Hopefully if they go ahead with the plan to put First Class at the "country end" it'll resolve some of this issue.

They did a survey last autumn, and I'm told the results were inconclusive, so the decision was to retain the status quo.

This would also help at Reading, where westbound trains have first class nearest the station entrance, the overbridge and the Waterloo/Gatwick platforms. I'm often changing from Wokingham trains, and with tight connections I'm afraid if the choice is missing the train or walking through first class then its going to be the latter...

They won't switch the train round. First Class pax haven't paid more to walk further!

At Euston, there are always several members of staff meeting and greeting First Class passengers; although no ticket checks are done at this point, it puts anyone else off.

I wouldn't be so sure Btline.

It's an oft-forgotten fact that not everyone is travelling to and from London...! Although it may just transfer the perceived problem from Paddington to the western termini (I'm thinking Penzance and Swansea in particular) actually at plenty of stations where access to platforms is somewhere in the middle (just to name a few, Bristol TM, Cardiff Central and Reading if you use the subway) it won't make much difference to people.

Not sure if this is generally known or not, but FGW are just trying to enforce a rule that has been in the book for years, certainly well before the end of BR, where any part of a first class vehicle is deemed to be first class accommodation (see Condition 39). BR used to tell revenue staff to use discretion in the case of passengers who had boarded at the last minute and were walking through first class on the way to standard. I don't suppose FGW will be any different.

The worst thing is NOT the standing in FC.  Its the trailing through.

You get on, yyou find a table and start getting your stuff out, settled.

Except every 30 seconds you get someone trying to push past with a suit case, a buggy etc etc

A few weeks ago I had a stand up argument with a woman and a buggy in the vestibule between the mini buffet and G.  There was no way to get through because her big McClaren double buggy was blocking the way.  She objected when I kneeled on her sprog to get past.

Told her it was her own fecking fault and if she had any consideration for anyone else, she'd have her sprogs neutralised lest they end up like her.

As an occassional first class passenger I really can't see what the fuss is about.  People are only walking through the train for a few minutes, I still get a nice big seat for my extra money. 

I've seen commuters getting off the 1745 ex Padd at Reading and succesfully getting the 1812 Reading-Waterloo! You can't blame them for walking through First Class to save 50 yards of Plaform 4, the next train towards Waterloo is 30 minutes later.

People walking through 1st class is a necessary sadly as this is where the train manager is and this is the only way people can get on close to departure time without opening other doors and potentially delaying departure. On a side not, how is people walking past really going to affect the journey with 1st class passengers walking past anyway so how is standard class people walking past that different or is it just the ticket type they have? (Yes I do travel 1st class as well so am entitled to an opinion and noe people walking past do not bother me)

I'd don't have a problem with people walking through out of necessity (eg if it means they would otherwise miss their train), though there are those that do it purely to nick a paper, which does annoy me. 

As a regular FC Traveller, I don't necessary have a problem with people walking through the carriage... however what I do take exception to is when a passenger boards a FC carriage, realises their mistake, walks to standard and mutters about/curses the occupants of FC as they do so... There's simply no need for it...! :-\

As for standing in the vestibules, I do find that mildly irritating because the internal door keeps opening/closing where people are standing on the sensor...!

The other issue I have is when other FC passengers give you the "You shouldn't be in here look"... That is why in some cases I'd rather be ticket checked than not because it removes the smug look they have when the TM starts to walk down the train ;D

Yeah, I am with you on all those three as well, trout.

Travelling 1st Class last week I noticed that the platform staff at Paddington were telling latecomers to get on the train in 1st Class and walk through to Standard as the train was about to leave, even though they still had another 2 minutes until departure....it's not just people being lazy.
As this situation tends to happen only at Paddington perhaps it would be sensible for the Train Manager to stay in the 1st Class area until after the train leaves, and move the Standard in 1st Demons on before they get comfy.

Dear dear. Does it really matter if a few of us riff raff/ plebs walk through First a few minutes before departure? :o

You've got several hours in a comfy seat and quiet environment with a cup of tea thrown in. Surely you can bear to breath the same air as 2nd class passengers before departure!

If people nick the papers then the Steward should not give them out until the train has left - a la other TOCs.

Not to me it doesn't, I was merely pointing out that platform staff were contributing to the problem that the thread was about by telling people to get on the train in a 1st Class carriage even though there was still plenty of time for them to walk as far as Coach A if need be let alone Coach E. People were queuing up to get on at the nearest 1st class door, then a long string of people the whole length of the carriage as they went along the inside of the carriage when they could easily walk to one of 9 other doors further down the train, which may have been quicker.
 
Personally I don't mind some very late Standard Class passengers walking through if it means the train departs on time but platform staff should also be aware that 1st Class is a premium product, with a premium price and one little perk of it is that those passengers can sit down and flake out in relative peace (in terms of passenger numbers as a bigger wallet doesn't guarantee a smaller mouth!) without a stream of people walking through (even for a few minutes of a 3 hour jouner, it's a first impression to many).

IIRC it always was a requirement to have a First class ticket to stand in a First class carriage.

The British Rail MK I BCK (Brake, Composite, Corridor,) have 5 Comparments, of which 2 compartments were First Class (12 Seats), 3 were Third Class {when built, later Second class} 18 seats, 24 seats on Western region.

These coaches had 2 toilets, 1 for second class and 1 for First class, and U could get chinged up for using the First class toilet when travelling 2nd class.

As a bonus what was the "market" the BCK was built for?

They often do. After the pre-departure procession you sometimes get the after departure procession as the turfing out process begins of those who don't wish to pay the excess or Weekend First to remain seated in First so you know that the Train Manager can't be far behind so get your ticket ready for inspection.

Thanks for your comments, Rob S - and welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :)

Trains which split into portions such as the Atlantic Coast Express!  :)

Correct, thery were built for splitting into portions for a BCK can be part of a large express or a ONE coach train, (yes with a locomotive).

also known as a 153!! ;D ;D

To be fair, two minute before departure they've quite often started the whistle blowing and the shutting of the doors furthest away from the concourse so the train can depart on time.. If two minutes before departure they let all those people carry on up the platform to wherever they fancy getting on they'd start opening all the doors again (and leave them open no doubt), and would then delay departure of the train, especially if they were going all the way to the front...

All fine and dandy in the last couple of minutes if the train's effectively ready to go, but I did think it a bit much the other evening when a dispatcher started shouting at me as I walked up platform 2 at Oxford towards the front of an HST past a digital clock showing four minutes to departure time, with a red signal at the platform end and the driver stood in the cab doorway chatting to the colleague he had just replaced.

In which case, may I offer this: http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/ContactUs.aspx  ;) ;D

Yes, ridiculous isn't it.  I've witnessed similar situations many times myself, and it's getting worse.  A polite request to close the door behind you (which I'm sure you'd have done anyway) would have been acceptable.

I usually keep a close eye on the time - and the signal - so if I know time is pressing I will get straight on and walk up the train but it's a sight easier to walk up the platforms than dodge sprawling passengers' legs, elbows, newspapers and laptops inside the train.

And yes, being a Cotswold Line regular, I have had a bit of practice at shutting a Mk3 door properly... which on an unstaffed platform of an evening invariably gets a 'thank you' from the senior conductors.

I've never stood in first class before but yesterday morning for some reason the 8.04 Maidenhead to Paddington (originated in Oxford) seemed to be busier than usual.. And it was taking people ages to get on because of this.. So a lot of us had to get on to the first class carriage intending to walk back down to standard class (well I was!) so that the train could get on it's way (it was already a little bit late).. However we ended up getting stuck standing in the First class doorways with nowhere to go.. The train manager did come up and pretty much emptied all the naughty people who had sat down in First class without first class tickets and made them come and stand with us but I imagine he realised there was nowhere for the standing people to go and didn't mention that we shouldn't be there.. It was only the last 20 minutes of the journey anyway..

I travel FC on the very train you mention- I have one of those FC Eastbound Only tickets. Unauthorised occupation of FC is a real problem, both vestibule and saloon. The is one particular guy who will push his way to the front of the crowd boarding at the front of coach H and then stand right in the doorway with his rucksack, causing an obstruction to the rest of us getting on. If he went to the far side of the vestibule it would be less of a problem, but he persists in standing there.

I'm glad FGW are trying to sort this problem out. Perhaps they could empty FC of all the chavs on the turbos as well.

There was an article in today's Sunday Times complaining about chavs in First Class, and the small differentials in fares between 1st and 2nd class. (i.e. Weekend First)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7086644.ece

The article is written about FGW's services.

Though the ariticle mentions Weekend First towards the end, I would have thought that it would probably be referring to the occasions when a first advance fare is only a few pounds more than at standard advance, sometimes cheaper.

I wonder how many complaints FGW really do get from people like the person who wrote the article?

Everyone has the right to travel in first but I do sometimes get irritated by those who let you know that they are in the same carriage as you by being noisy. The the only reasons I travel first is for some space and peace and quiet and find it fustrating when I dont get that after paying the extra.

I do see a time coming where there will be only one class of travel both on airlines and trains so enjoy it whilst I can.

I really do not mean this in a bad way so please do not take it as such, but do you not use the quiet carriage in 1st class? This is far emptier than coach H every time I have travelled and is to usually deathly quiet in there. Of course I am assuming the train you travel on is not full of 1st class travellers so some of the noisy people have no choice but to sit in coach G unless they wish to stand

I do use the quiet coach both in 1st & std and most of the time it is just that...quiet which is great but there are times when there are those who don't wish to play by the rules. I'm not the type of person to point out to them they are sitting in the quiet coach for risk of receiving abuse. If someone is being noisy there is a chance they could be abusive as well.

First class should be abolished so that there can be more standard class carriages. More seats for fare paying passengers. A lot of the people who travel in first class are ex-br staff with free travel and/or their partners. >:(

Would you like to justify the assertion that first class is full of ex-BR staff travelling for free, or have you just come here to vent?

Can I suggest you spend an hour or so at Paddington in the morning peak and obseve the trains arriving with plenty of fare paying business men/women in First class.

Abolishing First class would mean higher fares for the majority of us.

But just to balance that out.. The 18.33 Paddington to Oxford  usually has 2 and a half fairly empty first class carriages whilst we all squeeze on to the rest of the train..

Ooh.. maybe they looked on the first class carriages, decided the train was empty and so decided it was no longer needed from May  ;D ;D

I hate to be there bearer of bad news for you but first class is fantastic and should stay and this is from a student whoc omes from a single parent backround who can not work due to caring for my autistic brother. Firs class is more than reasonably priced on certain journies and nearly all people whobook in advance can travel on at low prices on certain trains. In fact it is even cheaper than standard some times but still makes large amount of money during peak travel, You could even argue that the first class fares are cross subsidising standard class fares making them lower.

(Btw this is only on intercity routes. The majority including myself do find first class on DOO and commuter routes a waste of time and capacity)

Come on use your head. Do you not understand that the guys paying for First Class seats are effectively subsidising standard class customers? Prices are high enough as it is, thank you kindly...

Not sure you are correct there.  These are very rough numbers and I would welcome a proper mathematical analysis but First class on average costs perhaps twice that of standard, but you get say 40 something rather than 80 something seats per coach and I suspect occupany of those seats is less and then there are sometimes the costs of extras for FC passengers.  Very roughly FC income per passenger is higher but costs of carrying them are also higher - probbaly by about the same amount.  Very roughly, I don't suspect that there is much difference at all in profitability for the TOCs between the two classes. or much cross subsidy in either direction (certainly not to the same extent as adults subsidise children or students).

I'd welcome some proper analysis of the issue and then the differential between SC and FC could be set to aviod either class subsidising the other. 

The argument gets more complicated when you ask these two questions;  1) if FC was abolished, would FC passengers travel SC or be lost to the railway?, and 2) If FC was replaced with SC would more SC passengers travel as a result of the extra seats provided?

The answer to those questions will be different on different trains, but I expect that the answer to 2) especially is more likely to be yes in the current overcrowded railway than it was previously. 

Well in my case the answer to (1) would be - I would travel a lot less.  Probably not leave the network totally since driving is not feasible but the wear and tear on the mind and body would be too great to do what I've done over the years.

I would travel less if first class was withdrawn, and yes the Reading commuters all standing in and walking through first do annoy me.
Some train managers move them, but most dont.
Despite the longer walk at Paddington, I would prefer first to be at the country end, thereby reducing the disturbance, though I may be in a minority re this.

As regards fares, I suspect that first class ticket holders do partialy subsidise standard class.
As others state a first class coach has about half the number of seats of a standard class one, but the fares are often a lot more than twice in first.
Single from taunton to Paddington is about ^40 standard or about ^145 in first, over three times as much.

I travel to London from Reading one or two days a week.  I pay the ^39.40 one day travel card rate and recently on coming home lept onto a very busy train (nothing new there) and stood between two first class carriages, knowing the standard would be packed and I'd be unlikely to move through the train without disturbing other passengers.  To my surpise I was told by the guard to move.  As I was standing between first class carriages I was in first class and if I stayed would have to pay a first class fare! I've stood there before and this has never happened to me.  Is this a new policy?  Is it another way that FGW can charge me ^40 for a 25min jounrey and still treat me like some Victorian working class oik whom first class passengers should not have to look upon?  I'm annoyed, can anyone enlighten me?

Welcome to the forum.

FGW have received numerous complaints from First Class passengers about people with standard class tickets standing in the vestibules.  I think the main problem is that conversations to fellow passengers or on mobile telephones can clearly be heard (you have to shout in the vestibules to be heard as the sound proofing is dreadful) and there's always the problem of the inadvertent clatter and clunk of the internal door sensors opening the doors which can be bloody annoying.  If you've paid a hell of a lot for a ticket then things like that can easily warrant a complaint.

It was becoming a big problem on the contra-peak HST's out of Paddington which stop at Slough in the morning peak as for a 15-minute journey lots of commuters decided to stand in the First Class vestibules as they'd be nearer the exit barriers at Slough - this is despite coaches A and B being practically empty!

The Railway Byelaws state 'Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.' - you could perhaps argue that the vestibules aren't part of the first class accommodation, and you'll find that in the majority of cases if you're nice and quiet and on your own then most TM's won't challenge you - though there are a few that have real bees in their bonnets over it!

It's not a new policy at all. In theory you could have been charged a penalty fare.

It's a similar situation to if a passenger who has not paid their fares sits down, denying you the right to sit in said seat, despite paying.

On last night's 17:06 Paddington-Westbury the TM announced that anyone standing in vestibules in First Class coaches with Standard tickets would be charged the full FC fare when he came round for the ticket check.

Incidentally a few days ago during the morning rush I was on a Turbo on the relief which overtook a London-bound HST on the main (it does happen!) and I noticed that the FC coaches had crowded vestibules even though there were clearly seats available in FC.

Interesting to see that FGW at the buffet end of the recently modified standard carriages have the 1st class band over the top of the carriage even though there is no first class seating. I assume to enable the above byelaw to be enforced in the vestibule area between 1st and the buffet serving hatch.

...and to discorage SC passengers from using that door and pushing past the buffet counter to get to SC

Firstly, welcome to the forum.

It's not a new policy. In fact it's been on the books for years and years, I suspect since the days of British Rail and probably long before that. Enforcement may be patchy but the rule is included both in the byelaws and the conditions of carriage, so staff are entirely within their rights to ask you to move to another part of the train in the situation you describe. An excerpt from the Conditions of Carriage, with my emphasis in bold:


As IndustryInsider pointed out, this is often a problem since many people making relatively short journeys out of Paddington in standard class on an HST are simply to idle to walk towards the standard class end of the train where there are usually plenty of seats available.

Edited to add...
On a practical level, the vestibules being jammed with people (standard class or not) also hinders the trolley service from being able to get through, which is one of the additional perks that those who have stumped up the extra for FC are entitled to expect.

Stuart: Welcome.

1. It's the coach that is classified, not the seats.

2. Don't stand between coaches - they've been known to separate at speed!

Coach A (quiet) can have more space, even for standing, as customers bunch in the centre and don't move down - just like Reading DD buses fill inside when there are seats upstairs (and at the back).

3. A "principal resident" of Reading and TUCC member had a similar fight with FGW or a predecessor - didn't he win on publicity grounds?

4. If you are prepared to mess, rather than buy a full return, you can buy a single to Zone 1/Oyster am and then an OP Travelcard with Network Card back. The ticket office at Reading will sell you both, the second as an advance purchase. You should also get the list of "off-peak" trains back - there are enough semi-fasts for a usable service.

ding ding...

OTC

Really? I always stand in the in between carriage bit when the train is busy... I won't be from now on.. :)

I wouldn't worry. It would be an extremely rare event! Probably only likely to be an issue in the event of a derailment or collision in fact!

There are now stickers appearing in HST FC vestibules reminding everyone that the whole of the FC carriages are FC.

One of the perks of FC is that you don't have to walk far at Paddington once you arrive. This is somewhat spoilt when you have to wait for 20+ SC standees to alight first before you can even leave your seat.

As I said in a previous post, the morning when someone planted their backside on my table was when I finally complained to FGW.

wow 't j' is slow on the uptake.... what is 'frist class'  ;D welcome to the forum

Hmm.  :)

Purely in the interests of clarity: as both of these topics cover exactly the same ground, so to speak, I'm merging them here (although the original topic headings are preserved).

C.  :)

Thanks, Chris.

I expect this is a subject that will continue to crop up time and again - it's so easy for passengers with standard class tickets (those without a degree in railway byelaws  ;) - i.e. most of us) to overlook / not appreciate certain elements of this rule, and to not realise how badly we can upset the passengers with first class tickets who have usually paid more - sometimes a great deal more.

As others post, this rule is not new, but in my experience was not enforced until recently.
Standard class passengers standing in the connection between F and G are a great problem since they impede the work of the restaurant staff.
Restaurant service has improved since the staff no longer have to fight past all the standard class passengers and their luggage and children.

I have regulary complained to FGW about the cancellation of Pullmans (sometimes due to so many standard class blocking safe acces for the restaurant staff)
I have also complained about the frequent non-appearence of the trolley service (sometimes due to standard class passengers preventing acces by the trolley)

Restaurant and trolley services have appeared more reliably of late, perhaps due to better enforcement of the rules.

One small distinction in the rules must rest in the difference between travelling (incl standing) in 1st class accommodation and passing through it. In Mk 1 days when the rules were formed, 1st's might be anywhere in the train, so there was a right of passage. With all the 1st's at one end this would be a harder excuse to make...

The other point is of course the excessive standard class crowding in major services having only 5 standard trailers/carriages. Rather than shorten sets to 7 cars it must be possible, particularly with the unused higher power of the new MTU engines, to add standards, allowing 6 or 7 instead of 5. A better peak service to Reading might also help - it can't make sense to have a Penzance passenger competing with a Reading commuter (who'll win!) for the same seat.

OTC

That's why I believe most (if not all) Devon/Cornwall services are "pick up only" at Reading. Crafty Reading commuters may know that the train will call there, but they potentially face a hefty penalty fare if checked en-route.

Ticket examiners under British Rail (and I suspect today) were always told to use discretion when passengers with standard class tickets were walking through first class on their way to standard accommodation (e.g. if joining the train at the last minute). I don't think anyone has a particular issue with this, it's just when they can't be bothered to walk all the way and set up camp in the vestibules.

Indeed - and fortunately, this should change once the Reading redevelopment is complete - with the easiest exit being off the overbridge further up the concourse.

I do think FGW should serious;y consider turning all the sets round- twice last week my regular inbound train was in reverse formation- 1st class was so much more civilised, and yes, we got a trolley service.

an easy solution- 1st class passengers happy, standard class happy as well.

Sorry, Standard Quiet coach would be anything but happy!

Why not? There's no passenger door at the front of coach A, so no-one would use it as a walk through to get to the front of the train.

Apart from the fact that getting on almost always involves the interior door to swish

The entire coach would be full of standees to Reading (as would 1st class be now if they weren't shooed out!)

Well here's a word of warning to anyone standing in the vestibules of FC out of Paddington, a PF for doing so is ^73.00 at twice the FDS fare and one has a feeling that now the softly softly approach hasn't worked that a few hard core commuters may well be relieved of ^73.00 for their persistence!........

Only ^73.00 if first stop Reading......handful of peak HSTs are first stop Slough/Maidenhead/Twyford.

in which case they have to leave the train too....

Very true, but if its a Cornish train that is pick up only at RDG then Pad-Nby is even more!

Are there any trains left that run non-stop RDG-EXD...? A first class penalty fare to Exeter might be a bit of a deterrent  ;)

Twice daily at 1033 and 1233.

^240 ... although the RPI would also have to stay on the train for the whole journey, which might prove a deterrent for them to patrol this service!

staff can alight from Pick up only services provided they were booked to do so, the only reason some of the Pad-Nqy services used to pick up only at exd was for crew change over. A Pf couldn't be issued Pad-Exd though as the "next stop" is within a different PF area (the break is between Wsb and Exd), this was at the insistence of the DFT as they thought it unfair to PF someone twice the SOS from say Truro to Padd if caught at Pad barriers, PF's are only really intended for local journeys anyway.

I agree entirely, first class at the country end would be far preferable in my view, but when FGW carried out a survey the results were otherwise.

In the new timetable I note that the 18-03 from Pad now stops at Reading to pick up only, every night.
In the present timetable the pick up only only restriction is Fridays only I believe.

Therefore presumably standard class ticket holders found in first can be penalty fared to Taunton, the first set down point.
That should deter them !

If however a customer has a valid ticket to Reading, how will FGW stop them useing the 18-03 ?
Can the gates at Paddington be set to reject Reading tickets ?
Is  a penalty fare payable for alighting at a "set down only" stop.

EDITED for typo, I intended to refer to pick up only, as it now reads.

Looking at the NRCoC, you can be PF'd for it.


However I doubt they would enforce it at RDG, would need a hell of a lot of staff as spotters and to 'pluck' people out.

I doubt you can be given a Penalty Fare for alighting (or attempting to alight) at a 'pick-up' only station.

From the Penalty Fare Rules (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfaresrules.pdf):


AFAICS the only legitimate 'fine' (for want of a better word) in the case of the 1803 would be to ching the passenger for the full undiscounted Anytime single from Paddington to Taunton.

Logistically this would be a nightmare to do once the passenger has got off at Reading. So, realistically the only ways to enforce the 'pick-up only' are to either do so at Paddington or onboard. Doing so at Paddington would, at the moment, require manual checking of every ticket and turning away all the Reading 'chancers'. This would require each platform at Paddington to be individually and manually barriered. There's no way, with the present set-up, that automatic barriers can be programmed to reject Reading tickets - what if a service due to call at Reading is on an adjacent platform?

Doing so onboard would generate some healthy revenue, but would also generate a sh*tload of negative publicity.

No easy answer......

There was a train many years ago which was pick up only at Reading. There was a problem so to avoid further delay the train went through road non-stop past Reading.  There were a couple of people on the train who sent in a complaint but were told they should not have been there in the first place.

Small chance of such a thing happening again but bit of a risk.  I always tell any pass this story if they ask to get on a pick up only train.

PS The train in question was next stop Taunton.  They got back home a bit late that day.  Dont know if they were charged for their extra journey or not  :o

There are tales of BR putting on reliefs from Reading for those joining the service there, and running the pick up only train non-stop intentionally, without any warning.  I bet that would deter people chancing it once the word went round.

I agree it's a minefield to enforce, and onboard checks are the only real solution.  But what the fare or penalty fare implications are I haven't a clue.  There are other areas where such restrictions are enforced, e.g. WCML trains at Watford Junction. I've been there offpeak and it seems they just man the platform with enough staff to spot those trying to get off (or on in the up direction).

Paul

THe only publicity would be not to board, or pay a record amount for a trip to Reading! The full peak single to Taunton is three figures? You'll only do that once.....

This sort of thing is the kind of Ryan Air anti-customer service attitude that doesn't help the rail industry's image at all. The fare structure and ticketing restrictions are already complicated enough, without having staff spending their time trying to devise cunning traps to impose massive penalty fares for people who ignore what most would regard as a rather bizarre restriction on getting off a train that stops where they are going.

It's not bizarre. It's a very sensible attempt to ensure that the train doesn't overfill with passengers for Reading (who could get on a train 5 minutes later) leaving passengers for South Wales/South West etc unable to board and having to wait up to an hour for their next service.

And as trains that are "pick up only" at Reading are not advertised as calling at Reading on the screens at Paddington, then the argument that they got on by mistake is rather weak.   

I fully understand the reason for it. I agree it makes sense operationally to discourage people from getting on a train under those circumstances. But I'm talking about customer service, and you aren't going to persuade many customers it is fair to impose very high penalties on people for doing that, which one or two people here seem to be advocating with great relish, or doing stunts like intentionally not stopping, just to catch people out. That is rather petty to say the least.

I'm with John R on this one - you appear to be excusing laziness on the part of Reading commuters in not checking whether a train is due to set-down at their stop. They have a train 3 minutes later or 8 minutes earlier.

There won't be 'stunts' as you suggest - what was reported was years ago, and before privatisation. Network Rail would rightly refuse any TOCs request now, unless for proper operational reasons.

I'm sure that FGW will make sure publicity leading up to the TT change will be clear, along with on-train announcements and posters at both Pad and Reading. And I'm sure that the vast majority of Reading pax will adhere to the new restriction.

Is "laziness" something that really deserves a penalty of this severity: "The full peak single to Taunton is three figures? You'll only do that once....."?? Compare and contrast with fines for motoring offences, scarcely proportionate.  This is not something that would be considered fair in terms of natural justice, never mind customer service. There have to be better ways to manage demand.

Any savvy Reading commuter will know the 18.03 is still a first stop Reading from the Dec tt change. If they choose to ignore the fact that FGW have made this service pick up only at Reading then they fully deserve to be penalty fared for not observing the reason why its pick up only...to benefit those travelling much further than them.

Is it that dis-proportionate ?
The fine for driving in a bus lane is now ^120, a broadly similar figure.
Many motoring offences carry fines of ^100.
Repeated motoring offences can lead to loss of the driving licence, repeated payment of penalty fares, excess fares or similar does not bar one from use of the rail network.

Indeed - withdrawal of one's season ticket would be excessive....

For the first offence that is  :)

Also agree for the first offence withdrawal of a season ticket is excessive.

I believe that this time the RDG commuters might take a second look when certain trains on a Friday evening show first stop Swindon on the boards.
Some of them evening peaks are having Didcot withdrawn from the stopping patterns and being replaced with a 'relief' train.

There has also been talk of actively stopping Reading Passengers. But I doubt they will set the barriers to reject them.
It is very easy to set up the barriers to block Reading tickets, spoke to a gateline engineer about it.

Ahh...... but what about the scenarios where a Reading 'pick-up only' is on Platform 1 or adjacent to a Reading service on other platforms?

I think for an effective block, you are going to need humans. Even then it'll be difficult to police if a 'pick-up only' is platformed next to another service which is calling at Reading.

Please get your facts right before posting something as specific as this.

Only one Fridays only HST is having its Didcot stop removed - and that's the 1915 (Swansea?).

A 1912 Oxford relief will have a stop at Didcot instead.

Or simply a sign stating "This train does not stop at Reading"

I'm sure on-train announcements just prior to leaving, coupled with Revenue Inspectors for the first couple of weeks giving notrhing but verbal warnings would suffice.

Or maybe a written warning (name and address taken) and if caught again then ching time.

Yes, it is entirely disproportionate. I'm astonished that you'd consider getting off a train which is pick up only to be remotely comparable to a motoring offence. It is this sort of thing that gives the railways a reputation for being customer unfriendly, inflexible and expensive. It is very easy to see this only from the perspective of the regular traveller, or the staff member, who understands the ticketing system and restrictions and is fully aware of the reasons why such restrictions are in place. People like us in other words. What you aren't seeing is how it appears to the infrequent traveller, or the person who never uses the railway but is a potential new customer. Stories about getting on the wrong train or having the wrong ticket and being hit with what is basically a large fine are very off-putting and give the railways a poor image. Companies with a good reputation for customer service simply don't do this sort of thing. Basically, if the rail operator doesn't want Reading passengers on a train then it  is up to the operator to find a way of discouraging them from getting on it that doesn't involve treating people like criminals.

Yep thats what I meant.

In reply to your last post mjones, infrequent travellers would be looking to the departure boards to let them know when the next train to Reading is due to leave so wouldn't know to board the train thats pick up only as Reading will not be shown. It's the everyday travellers who know that the 18.03 will be stopping at Reading that need FGW to get tough with. A partial solution would be for the Train manager before the train departs when informing passengers that off-peak tickets are not valid on this train also mentioning that all tickets incl seasons to Reading are also not valid.

Indeed, mjones, we were referencing season ticket holders, I believe.

Just wanted to say I dont believe there is any penalty for travelling on a train which is officially pick-up only.  Have never heard of one on such trains i have worked.  Most travellers go by the departure boards and only a few people who read these forums will know it stops there anyway.

And it's good that a relief service is being added to the timetable - though it does beg the question: where is the stock coming from?  It'll be a Turbo obviously.  Is something else being short formed (18:25ex PAD?) as a result?  If not, why can't this train run during the rest of the week when it would also be very helpful relieving the crush.  Either way, I predict it'll jump straight to the top of the cancellation charts as if there's any Turbo shortages it'll be simple to revert back to the Monday-Thursday timetable and cancel it.

There is a penalty (charging you to next set-down stop with or without a penalty fare).  It is just never enforced.  I don't have a problem with enforcement for repeat offenders IF it is a last resort and other things have been tried first.

So long as the penalty isn't a surprise I'd be OK with it. 

 

In response to the opening post, I would like to congratulate FGW for ensuring that First Class is for First Class ticket holders only.

In recent weeks I have travelled in First with South West Trains (EXD to CLJ return) and various journeys on Southern, South Eastern, First Capital Connect, East Midlands Trains and Gatwick Express. Only East Midlands made any effort to ensure that those of us in First had paid for it and it was apparent that Standard ticket holders were casually occupying First on virtually every service. What ticket checks that were undertaken were only ever at the start of the journey eg Lewes (to Victoria), thus ensuring that First was crammed with French teenagers after Gatwick (oh joy!).

The SWT EXD - WAT was crammed (3 coaches all the way to WAT ???) and I personally have no problem with, for example, parents with small children being upgraded by the guard. However, as it was, a family emerged from Standard after Yeovil, celebrated finding four empty seats with a table and spent the rest of their journey discussing how they would 'make a stand' if asked for their tickets. They needn't have worried as two different guards blatantly ignored them on different occasions. My ticket? ^171 return. All I ask is that they were made to acknowledge that they were being given a one-off upgrade rather than - in my opinion - being ignored because of the 'hassle' involved.

I should perhaps make clear that I was travelling in a private capacity and that I was not claiming my tickets on expenses or using a pass. How do I know that other passengers in First have Standard tickets? Just watch and listen! Have used FGW for about a dozen EXD - PAD return First trips in past 3 months and they are clearly making a determined effort to clamp down on Standard stragglers, even between Reading and PAD.

Incidentally, East Midlands First Class scores some points over FGW; china crockery laid out on table, prompt at-seat service, glossy 'welcome' brochure incorporating menus and a little more generous with the freebies (!). However, the seating layout of the Meridians (?) is poor, with several seats having no window and the general feel and decor inferior to FGW HST. Long live the Mk 3!

Agree with the above post, enforcement of first class USED to be very poor on FGW and almost non existant between Reading and London.
It is now enforced with some vigour, I am glad to say.

As regards service in First class, the restaurant is very good, but 2 a day is not much.
Other at seat service is very variable in qaulity, sometimes frequent and obliging, sometimes less so and sometimes non-existant.

Only on HSS services.  On Turbos it remains practically non existent.

I nearly fell off my seat when my ticket was checked between PAD and OXF on a Turbo a few weeks back. Don't think it was an RPI though, and the service was running through to Worcester or Malvern, so I wonder if the guard who was due to take over at Oxford was on-board and just decided to do some revenue to pass the time.

I travel occasionally on East Midlands Trains, but I'm in steerage. And on the Meridians, the experience is so so much better than the cattle truck that is an FGW HST. Light and open coaches, and tables as well.

While the seating density of a FGW HST Standard Class carriage is greater than a Meridian, surely more bums on seats is a good thing? With room for upwards of 20 extra seated passengers in a FGW HST Standard Class carriage over the old layout. That's 20 less standees. Cows don't get to sit down in their transport so I would hardly call it a cattle truck.

Unless I was Bob Crow.  ;)

This was tweeted by Nigel Harris editor of RAIL magazine this morning:



Either this problem has got so bad on East Coast services that it was hard to ignore or East Coast are responding to complaints made by first class passengers or staff. Can't see how they can really enforce this without having a team of RPIs on board.

The latter - and they're putting crew between Standard & 1st class & refusing entry.

The problem was getting so bad that the queue to alight was passing through more than the front coach - and people were racing each other to get to the front, so they were arriving earlier & earlier.

If I was paying those prices, I'd want the queue prevented too.

On a recent* journey I was most impressed by the determination of the train manager in moving/attempting to move standard class passengers from first class.

On the 18-03 from Paddington, many customers with standard class tickets wanted to stand in F, obstructing the work of the catering crew.
When asked to move, many became abusive and claimed that they had no option but to stand in F owing to lack of space elswhere.

The train manager stated that seats woulld be available in A , and whilst I could not verify this for myself, I have no reason to doubt it.

Those standing then changed their complaint, and stated that they did NOT want to sit, but wanted to stand "with more room" i.e. in First.

The train manager suggested that in that case they should purchase first class tickets. "oh no, that is much too expensive"

Some of these passengers stated that they would write and complain about the actions of the train manager.

Whilst I could not hear everything, my impresion was that he acted correctly at all times, despite the poor behaviour of the passengers concerned, some of whom appeared drunk.

*Is it in order for me to state the date on which this occured ? That would indentify the train manager in question. Not certain if this is allowed ?

Does it really matter? This is a regular occurance on the 1803...

The 18.03 is advertised PICK UP only at Reading, yet when ever I catch it from Reading , you can't get ON for all those getting off.

FGW should do 3 things.

1 STOP TM's from announcing Reading as a Calling point at Paddington and again when approaching Reading.

2 Put the RPI teams on board from Paddington, "Sorry that's a Ticket to Reading IT'S NOT Valid"
   Twice the Open Single PAD to Taunton is HOW MUCH

3 Get the TM to open only doors on Carriages F to A at Reading, there doesn't have to be any annoucement about G & H staying Locked Ther's NO ONE on board to get OFF

I tend only to use the "Golden Hind" from Reading (is the 18.03 from Pad still called the Golden Hind) but at Paddington is Reading shown as a calling point?

Yes the 1803 is still called the Golden Hind.
I agree that as the Reading stop is meant to be pick up only, that it should not be announced at Paddington, nor on the train.

Although the timetable gives the Reading stop as pick up only, the train is still anounced as calling at Reading.

Yes but just keeping Coach G & H Locked will soon stop all the Standing in First Class.

According to this timetable http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/TTs%20Apr%20'11/GW11M_TT07_WEB_V1.pdf (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/TTs%20Apr%20'11/GW11M_TT07_WEB_V1.pdf) I can use the 1803 to Reading except on Fridays. Good thing too because it relieves some of the overcrowding on the much busier 1800 and 1806.

Interesting, as posted above, the timetable linked to in the previous post suggests that the Golden Hind may be used to travel from Paddington to Reading, except on Fridays.

This timetable thoughhttp://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/TTs%20Apr%20'11/GW11M_TT04_WEB_V3.pdf (http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/TTs%20Apr%20'11/GW11M_TT04_WEB_V3.pdf)
States that Reading is pick up only every weekday, not just Fridays.

One might hope that the information would at least be the same, no matter which current timetable was consulted.

Live Departure systems have a Reading call as arriving at 1830 and leaving at 1833. Presumably it's simply advertised incorrectly in the FGW timetable.

Well having a Train Pick Up (or Set down) only being different is Just Dumb Stupid but then we are talking First Group here.

Anyway Last Time I boarded the Down Hind it was at Reading and on FRIDAY 2nd September and I had to wait for Dozens to Get OFF!

  As this is now one of the last Restaurant Trains running surely obstructing the work of the Catering Staff in providing a service in F is rather inconsiderate in the least.

Pretty sure there is a bylaw offence "interfering with railway business" or something along those lines.

Do FGW HSTs have selective door operation? If not I guess keeping coaches locked OOU with people in them is not permitted>

Yes they do...

How would locking G&H help? Apologies if it is blindingly obvious!

I've been wondering the same whilst reading this thread...

Keeps majority of Reading passengers out of first class - but wouldn't help massively cos you would probably still get people stand between F and G.

Plus people that will stand in G and H anyway and probably pull the passcomm or something when they can't get off.

It just needs better enforcement at Paddington - but no real easy way to do it.

its pick up only on a friday because there is capacity in the rest of the week.

What about First Class passengers? Surely any "Reading rebels" will board  in A - E? Sorry - still confused.

Vestibules tend to get well used in First Class if train is correct formation, as it's the perfect position on Platform 4 for either getting out the station or going to Platforms 4a or 4b.

That's why this topic exists - first class customers don't like it and at times FGW will enforce it - but it's not always possible as sometimes the train really is just too busy.

Cheers - makes sense now I come to think of it. Hmmm, not sure it's a good plan, as boarding 1st Reading commuters would be confused and angered at boarding at the buffet, and the train could get delayed.

Maybe it's time that RPI's stood at the platform in Reading and check random people when it is pick up only and start handing out penalty fares. This would soon enough sort the problem once word gets around and people repatedly get stung

Can you get PFed for alighting from a pick-up only?  I would imagine PFs can only be issued if the person were to remain on the train.

I think there are no hard and fast rules for chinging someone who alights from a pick up only service. Particularly at Reading, as there doesn't seem to be consistent information in the public domain as to whether it is, or is not, permitted on certain services from Paddington.

With regard to not opening coaches via SDO. I find that passengers will push doors repeatedly, despite clear and concise announcements telling them that Doors XX etc will not be opened at xxxxx.  Apart from the issues mentioned above, an added risk of door on the catch.