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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on April 29, 2010, 21:41:49



Title: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 29, 2010, 21:41:49
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8652112.stm):

Quote
Thieves who stole railway signalling cables overnight caused long delays on train services through Oxfordshire.
Rail companies say cables were vandalised between Banbury and Leamington Spa disrupting morning services for several hours.
Glenn Hellam, from British Transport Police, warned the thieves that stealing cable can be dangerous.
"We have had instances when they've cut through live cable, causing serious injury to themselves," he added.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: readytostart on April 30, 2010, 00:37:38
From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8652112.stm):

Quote
Thieves who stole railway signalling cables overnight caused long delays on train services through Oxfordshire.
Rail companies say cables were vandalised between Banbury and Leamington Spa disrupting morning services for several hours.
Glenn Hellam, from British Transport Police, warned the thieves that stealing cable can be dangerous.
"We have had instances when they've cut through live cable, causing serious injury to themselves," he added.
XC NCL-RDGs cancelled South of Birmingham for a couple of hours due to capacity issues, Bomo Manchesters running as booked, generators in place mid morning restoring power and NCL/RDG services, permanent repairs still to be made, presumably overnight.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 30, 2010, 12:42:10
From the Coventry Telegraph (http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/south-warwickshire-news/2010/04/30/rail-chaos-after-signal-cable-theft-near-leamington-station-92746-26344397/):

Quote
Rail chaos after signal cable theft near Leamington Station

Thieves caused rush hour chaos for commuters yesterday after they stole cables near Leamington rail station.
The theft, which happened between Leamington and Banbury stations, led to signal failure at stations in the region.
It affected trains which run through Warwick Parkway, Birmingham Snow Hill and London Marylebone stations with delays of more than two hours.
Rail bosses were able to resume services to one train per hour from 6am following the incident, which happened just after midnight.
Engineers have since installed a temporary generator and repaired the signals.
A British Transport Police spokesman said: ^Officers are investigating the theft of cable from a line side location just outside Leamington railway station. The incident caused significant disruption to the rail network in the area. Approximately 110 metres of cable was stolen from the station, which led to serious problems with signalling. A temporary generator has now been installed, and signalling was returned back to normal order from 7.30am. The cable theft from the railway is an extremely dangerous crime which is costly to the rail industry and causes hours of delays to the thousands of passengers who rely on the rail network. The disruption caused really is an attack on the community.^
Chris Rowley, Network Rail^s area general manager said: ^Our people have been working since around midnight to get trains on the move again as quickly as possible. We introduced a special method of signalling at 6am so that trains could start running, albeit with delays, and temporarily restored the power to the signalling system from 7.30am. Theft of railway cable is a major problem for the rail industry. Last year we had 85 cable theft incidents in the West Midlands area, resulting in 462 trains being cancelled and other services being delayed by a total of 74,000 minutes. Those incidents cost Network Rail approximately ^4million ^ effectively lost money that could be better spent on improvements.^


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on August 06, 2010, 08:53:25
From FGW website:
Train services on all routes both to and from London Paddington are being disrupted due to vandalism at Tilehurst.

Short notice alterations, cancellations and delays of up to 60 minutes can be expected.

A significantly reduced train service is in operation.

Network Rail's latest information indicates that services will remain disrupted until the remainder of the day.

A further update will be available at 10:30

Please see the http://firstgreatwestern.co.uk/LiveUpdateList.aspx (http://firstgreatwestern.co.uk/LiveUpdateList.aspx) section for individual train alterations.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on August 06, 2010, 09:00:51
Yup - the signalling system appears to be down at Tilehurst - but I'm sure someone will be along with the details soon...


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: BBM on August 06, 2010, 09:01:46
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/s/2075975_trains_delayed_by_signal_cable_theft

Quote from: Reading Post
Trains delayed by signal cable theft

August 06, 2010

Commuters faced rush hour chaos this morning after thieves stole signal cables on a stretch of track in West Reading.

Trains have been cancelled and others delayed up to an hour while engineers work to restore services.

British Transport Police confirmed cables were stolen from near Scours Lane sometime after midnight.

Anyone with information is urged to call Sgt Mike Conroy on 0800 405 040 quoting reference NSPIS14/06/08/2010.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on August 06, 2010, 09:36:03
This is happening all to often at the moment but what can Network Rail do to stop it from happening? These culprits need to be caught as well as those who are buying this stolen cable. There must be a way of tracking down this trade in scrap metal?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: RailCornwall on August 06, 2010, 10:08:32
Time to bite the bullet and use commercial telecomms for these service critical purposes, rather than relying on lineside cabling.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: jane s on August 06, 2010, 10:13:28
There was a cable theft in the same area this Tuesday evening which also caused disruption - surprised not to see any comments on the board about it.

This is really getting beyond a joke! (if it ever was one....)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: matth1j on August 06, 2010, 12:13:04
It meant the Paddington-Bristol Temple Meads which I joined at 0726 in Reading took the scenic route, going through Trowbridge etc. and not stopping at Didcot, Swindon, or Chippenham.

Unfortunately they didn't announce the change of route at Reading station - I know it caught some of the passengers in my coach by surprise.

EDIT: I mean it caught me by surprise as well, but I was going to Bath so was able to just relax and enjoy the scenery.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 06, 2010, 12:31:24
From FGW live updates:

Quote
A significantly reduced train service is in operation on all routes into London Paddington. The current estimate from Network Rail is that services will be affected for the remainder of the day. Between 12:30 and 15:00 train services will need to be reduced further, to allow Network Rail to make repairs to the signalling equipment. From 15:00, whilst we will still be operating a reduced train service, we will be able to operate more services than at present. South West Trains are accepting First Great Western tickets on services between Reading, Basingstoke, Guildford and London Waterloo. Chiltern Railways are accepting First Great Western tickets on all reasonable routes. London Underground are accepting First Great Western tickets on all reasonable routes.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2010, 14:27:57
Looks like a truly awful day out there. I feel for anyone who is caught up in it.

I note from National Rail Enquiries that CrossCountry services between Reading and the north are also affected with them starting and terminating at Didcot. The ones from the south coast are also incurring delays through the Reading area.

Unlike FGW though, CrossCountry deem it unnecessary to put up a prominent message on their website's homepage - you have to go looking for service updates.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 06, 2010, 14:38:16
Time to bite the bullet and use commercial telecomms for these service critical purposes, rather than relying on lineside cabling.
This would only reduce the amount of track side cabling by a very small amount, data between panel boxes and remote signaling interlocking equipment is multiplexed anyway, if you take a large junction area like west Reading / Tilhurst there is a lot of very local cabling for the signaling in that vicinity.  There is also a matter of data / system security where signaling and other railway control systems are sent via a BT (or other) line it has to have HMRI approval.

My suspicions with the Reading area is at the resiganalling of the Reading area quite possibly means that the cables for the existing signaling have been lifted out of the concrete trough routes by NR's contractors to lay the new signaling system cables in, this make the old cables very vulnerable, there were a lot of cable theft and hence disruption in the Newport area when that was resignalled recently, while it would be easy to say put in new routes this is not always possible due to a lack of space.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2010, 14:38:52
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-10890233) (06/08/2010):

Quote
Train delays around Reading after copper wire theft

Train delays caused by thieves who stole copper wire from a signal point have hit "thousands of passengers".

A reduced service is running between Reading, Oxford, Swindon and London after damage was caused near Tilehurst. Trains that are running are facing 60-minute delays with a "significantly reduced" number of services in operation, especially around Reading. Passengers have been warned that the disruption is likely to last for most of Friday.

In a separate incident, a signalling issue means there is a replacement bus service between Aldershot and Ascot.
Vital investment

Network Rail appealed to anyone with information about the theft to contact police. A spokesperson said: "Many thousands of passengers are being unnecessarily delayed today thanks to an act of mindless vandalism. Not only does cable theft cause massive disruption and delays nationwide, it also deprives passengers of vital investment in their railway. Last year we paid out almost ^8m in compensation to train operators for disruption caused by thieves - money that otherwise would have been spent improving services."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: James Vertigan on August 06, 2010, 15:16:51
The screens by the information desks at Paddington this morning were giving an estimated service resumption time of 20:00 - and that was at 08:00 this morning - that's some disruption!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: devon_metro on August 06, 2010, 16:42:27
Quoting a text - "nearly all the cables have gone"


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Bob_Blakey on August 06, 2010, 18:23:51
Time to bite the bullet and use commercial telecomms for these service critical purposes, rather than relying on lineside cabling.

Unfortunately the 'commercial telecomms' companies are fairly regularly hit by the same problem; my employer has started treating cabling with Smart Water, but of course this is only of any use if the cables are recovered after the event or if the scrotes responsible are apprehended and are found to have traces of the marker on them.

I suspect the only real solution may be the use of as much optical fibre cable as possible (zero scrap value) but this would only be effective if the aforementioned scrotes can be convinced by the NR / BTP publicity machine that they are wasting their time.

What chance the reinstatement of regular lineside patrols? None? (thought so-way too expensive)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bigdaz on August 06, 2010, 18:59:06
Interesting.... have just watched BBC's South Today report to today's events.

A high percentage of the footage seemed to focus on Reading platforms 4a/b which, as far as I understood, would not be affected by the lack of cabling at Tilehurst.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on August 06, 2010, 19:57:44
I suspect the only real solution may be the use of as much optical fibre cable as possible (zero scrap value) but this would only be effective if the aforementioned scrotes can be convinced by the NR / BTP publicity machine that they are wasting their time.

What chance the reinstatement of regular lineside patrols? None? (thought so-way too expensive)
I would suspect that these type of scrotes know exactly what they are doing and as for reinstatement of regular lineside patrols if the frequency of these thefts increases they may not have much choice as this week alone has cost Network Rail a fortune in payouts to rail companies on the Western region.

I have no idea how much resource BTP put towards catching cable theft scrotes but its becoming a ever increasing crime on our railway network.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on August 06, 2010, 20:25:35
One would hope that the compensation payouts NR have to make to TOCs will filter down to affected passengers. FGW do not, at the moment, have to make compensation payments for delays when the rail industry is not at fault.

You could argue though that NR is at fault - for not doing more to prevent cable thefts. That being said it's nigh on impossible to protect every yard of cable across the network.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: johoare on August 06, 2010, 23:01:44
Well, having gone for the 08.00 Maidenhead to Paddington this morning, but already knowing it was cancelled (I know to check before I leave home these days) I got the 08.04.. Still a fast train.. and very overcrowded due to the disruption/cancellations,  but I've been on worse..I think it being a Friday in August helped a bit as people were away..

Our only problem was, when arriving at Paddington... the doors at our end of the carriage wouldn't open... It was a turbo.. It took quite a while for everyone to get off our carriage.. yet not one person walking past outside wondered why we were still all crowded into the door area and tried (it might not have worked) to open our door for us  ;D


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: willc on August 07, 2010, 10:41:04
Time to bite the bullet and use commercial telecomms for these service critical purposes, rather than relying on lineside cabling.

Not any more secure than the rail network I'm afraid.

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/sport/omboysleague/archive/2009_2010/2010/07/30/Oxford+news+%28om_oxfordnews%29/8302263.Hundreds_cut_off_after_cable_theft/

Quote
I have no idea how much resource BTP put towards catching cable theft scrotes but its becoming a ever increasing crime on our railway network.

 BTP press release on this issue from just last week
http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/REWARDS-ON-OFFER-FOR-CABLE-THEFT-INFO-103b.aspx


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 07, 2010, 11:03:38
I have no idea how much resource BTP put towards catching cable theft scrotes but its becoming a ever increasing crime on our railway network.
I have quite a lot of dealings with BTP Crime Prevention Officers, we arrange a site meeting with the BTP CPO and the contractors we use advice is given on security measures local BTP patrol contact details in some locations the civil police are briefed.  There are a number of surveillance and monitoring systems deployed site security employed etc but this still does not prevent raids on sites where we are working.  Site security staff are often intimidated or paid off (who can blame them on ^5 or ^6 an hour) in one incident the security guard was blocked into his cabin by the thieves placing a load of concrete troughs against the door.  However all these measure only work for small work sites and they are expensive which at the end of the day reduces the amount of money we have for renewing equipment, these measures are almost impossible to deploy on an operational railway or on very large work sites.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 07, 2010, 12:13:36
From the Bristol Evening Post (http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/crime/Copper-thieves-cause-train-delays/article-2501669-detail/article.html):

Quote
Copper thieves cause train delays

Rail passengers travelling between city stations and London faced lengthy delays when trains had to be re-routed after thieves took copper cable used to power signals.

The theft happened just after midnight yesterday from a section of railway near Reading.

Network Rail engineers spent the day working to replace the cable with a thicker length that is harder to cut and easier to trace if stolen.

Passengers were delayed by up to 20 minutes on First Great Western services between Temple Meads and Paddington throughout the day.

First spokeswoman Ellie Banks said trains were diverted on to relief lines.

Network Rail spokeswoman Mavis Choong said the cable theft had caused signals to go down. But she emphasised that no passengers were put in danger. Ms Choong said: "We have a fail-safe system but it's never an excuse to do something like this. Many thousands of passengers have been unnecessarily delayed thanks to an act of mindless vandalism. The people who did this have also put themselves in a lot of danger."

Network Rail and Crimestoppers are offering a reward of up to ^1,000 for information leading to the conviction of the thieves.


My highlighting. CfN.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on August 07, 2010, 12:36:33
I think you've got offer more than the copper was worth as reward....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on August 07, 2010, 22:54:30
Agree - ^1000 is a laughable reward for this particular incident.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Trowres on August 07, 2010, 23:35:10
Why is it so difficult to catch the thieves? Detection and location of cable breaks ought to be near-instantaneous and automatic.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 08, 2010, 07:52:19
Why is it so difficult to catch the thieves? Detection and location of cable breaks ought to be near-instantaneous and automatic.
The panel box will lose track circuits, point detection, etc in that area even a wider area, the fault could be a power failure to the cables being stolen, what the box will not get is the problem is at mile post, even if the box does have a good indication of where the problem is by the time even the civil police have arrived the villeins have gone, blues n too's you can spot a long way off, also these villains will go through the cables very quickly with axes power tools tie the bundle to a vehicle and tow them out of the troughs in 5 minuets about no more than ^100 worth of scrap is nicked but ^10,000 or of damage is done.

The Courts are often to soft by not allowing the endangering the railway charge when the villains are caught


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 08, 2010, 13:59:10
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-10907583):

Quote
Rail metal theft crackdown after delays

Rail authorities say they will be stepping up their efforts to stop thefts after thousands of passengers were delayed on Friday.

A reduced service had to run for most of the day after copper wire was stolen from a signal point on the network near Tilehurst in Berkshire.

The delays affected services between Reading, Oxford, Swindon and London.

Network Rail condemned the "mindless" act and has vowed to fight the problem with British Transport Police.

A spokesman for BTP said: "It is a significant problems on the railways. We are doing as much as we can to address it."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on September 28, 2010, 17:32:35
From The Guardian website:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/28/railway-crackdown-copper-theft

Quote
First it was leaves on the line, then it was the wrong kind of snow. But now there is a new excuse for delays on the 17.38 to Orpington: the price of copper.

Soaring demand from China and India has pushed copper theft from railway infrastructure to record levels in Britain. The crimewave has hit 11,000 trains in a year and delayed a million passengers.

Network Rail, which first highlighted the problem in the north-east of England when the copper boom took off four years ago, has set up a taskforce to deal with incidents that have seen ^35m worth of copper stripped from railsides since 2006. If the epidemic is unchecked the annual takings of copper thieves will be ^20m a year by 2014, Network Rail estimates.

The taskforce, which also includes train operators and the British Transport police, is calling for tougher sentencing, a crackdown on rogue scrap merchants and legislation to give the police greater power over errant metal dealers who sell the stolen copper on.

"Metal thieves targeting the railway are causing misery to thousands of passengers and freight users and costing the industry, and the wider economy, tens of millions a year and rising," said Dyan Crowther, Network Rail's director of operational services.

Gangs are disabling swaths of the rail network by ripping out lines attached to track signals, which use copper to convey control centre messages and power. Once power is lost to rail signals, the lights revert to auxiliary power and immediately switch to red until repair teams arrive, causing instant disruption.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on September 28, 2010, 22:15:57
This is an acute problem in Kent; there are some of the very remotely located traction substations that have been hit 15 times this year alone, as soon as the repair made the following night its stolen.  Fencing is not a deterrent to these individuals they either ram raid the gates or use a grinder to cut through the fencing.  We are even get thieves cutting live 33,000 volt cables!!!!!!!!!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: smokey on September 29, 2010, 16:31:48
This is an acute problem in Kent; there are some of the very remotely located traction substations that have been hit 15 times this year alone, as soon as the repair made the following night its stolen.  Fencing is not a deterrent to these individuals they either ram raid the gates or use a grinder to cut through the fencing.  We are even get thieves cutting live 33,000 volt cables!!!!!!!!!

As I've said on another post, I know a simple way to put a Mod on power cables that mean the BTP could track cable thiefs.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 29, 2010, 20:40:20
From the BTP press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/CABLE-THIEVES-JAILED-FOR-TOTAL-OF-28-MONTHS-SWANSEA-114c.aspx):

Quote
CABLE THIEVES JAILED FOR TOTAL OF 28 MONTHS - SWANSEA

Two men who admitted putting rail staff and passengers^ safety at risk by cutting and removing signalling cable on the railway line at Jersey Marine, near Swansea, have been jailed for a total of 28 months, following an investigation by British Transport Police (BTP)

Brendan Ceri Buckley, 28, and Neil Donald Payne, 29, both from Swansea, pleaded guilty to endangering safety on the railway and theft of cable when they appeared before magistrates earlier this month.

At a sentencing hearing at Swansea Crown Court today, Monday 27 September, Payne was jailed for 16 months while Buckley was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment.

Two BTP officers on patrol in the Jersey Marine area at around 8pm on 15 July saw two men by the railway line with a moped parked close to them.

While the officers watched, Payne and Buckley were both seen to lift up a troughing lid containing the copper cable before appearing to cut the cable.

The men then got on the moped and rode off, dragging a length of cable behind them. After a chase, the men escaped but officers arrested the pair later and recovered the stolen cable.

BTP will continue to work closely with Network Rail to prevent cable thefts by stepping up surveillance with covert actions and tightening security in hotspot areas.

Last year, cable thefts in South Wales alone cost the rail industry ^2million and caused nearly 50,000 minutes of delays, according to Network Rail.

Detective Inspector Mark Cleland, who is heading BTP^s attack on cable thieves in Wales, said: ^We are utilising a whole range of tactics to tackle metal and cable theft across the region. We will continue to carry out high profile patrols at known areas of cable theft activity across Wales, as well as scrap yards which are a key role in tracking taken rail. Officers will be making regular, unannounced visits to scrap dealers searching for stolen metal, ensuring dealers are complying with current legislation and providing advice about what to look out for when checking metal brought into their yards. There is a common assumption that cable theft is a victimless crime, with the only effects being felt by the railway industry. This is not the case. Theft of crime can, and does, cause significant delays and cancellations to the rail industry ^ as well as costing the industry millions of pounds each year. These delays have a considerable impact on the lives of people who rely on the railway to go about their business and can result in people missing vital appointments. Important services can also see disruption as a knock on effect, as key individuals, such as doctors, are left stranded on stationary trains.^

Mark Langman, Network Rail^s area general manger for Wales, said: ^We are not letting cable thieves get away easily. The theft of cable is a constant drain on our resources and cause of considerable disruption to rail users. We are working with our colleagues at the train operating companies and British Transport Police to tackle thieves, including using covert surveillance, helicopter patrols and putting up fences - but we need help from local people, too. It^s your railway ^ help us keep services running reliably by reporting anyone you see acting suspiciously or let the police know of any information you have about people committing these crimes.^

Anyone with information about cable theft should contact British Transport Police on 0800 40 50 40 or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on October 25, 2010, 08:15:18
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11616870

Quote
British Transport Police is calling for tougher powers to tackle the growing problem of metal theft.

There have been more than 5,000 such thefts from the railways and the gas and electricity networks this year. Officers have told BBC News the rising price for refined copper means they expect the problem to get worse.

They want the power to shut suspected rogue scrap metal dealers on the spot in the same way they can close pubs, with the decision reviewed by a court.

The last two years have seen the price of refined copper more than double. At the end of 2008 it was selling it at a low of less than ^2,000 a tonne, but by earlier this month it had reached more than ^5,000.

Police say the levels of theft have mirrored the rise and fall in prices, and with the value of scrap expected to continue to rise into next year they fear the problem will become even more acute.

 


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: SDS on October 25, 2010, 14:40:55
Whats the point in giving BTP more powers when they don't even use the ones they currently have!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 25, 2010, 16:23:56
Further details, facts and figures are given in the BTP press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/POLICE-CALL-FOR-NEW-MEASURES-TO-CLOSE-DOWN-UNSCRUPULOUS-SCRAP-DEALERS-11b8.aspx):

Quote
This year to date BTP has recorded 1,855 cable-related offences and has effected almost 500 arrests.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on October 25, 2010, 16:38:05
Whats the point in giving BTP more powers when they don't even use the ones they currently have!
BTP run the National data base for metal thefts, BTP were the Police force who identified a National problem when they contacted other Police Forces and found that BT, DNO's Telecom companies all had thefts but there was not coordinated recording.  There are very limited powers even if they stop a van with cable inside they (police) have to prove it is stolen.  Scrap dealers are the ones to hit they are supposed to keep accurate records of vehicle regs names and addresses of sellers as a friend of mine who is a DCI in a local force the number of times Mickey Mouse etc is listed and non existent address and vehicle regs that a incorrect.

I deal with BTP quite regularly regarding worksite security they are proactive they liaise with local forces to increase patrols but BTP is only a small force


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 26, 2010, 12:56:57
From another BTP press release:

Quote
BTP CRACKS DOWN ON METAL THIEVES AND ROGUE SCRAP DEALERS DURING SPECIAL OPERATION

British Transport Police (BTP) conducted a widespread operation across several counties to crack down on metal thieves on Friday, 22 October.

As part of Operation Ablett, BTP officers were out in force in a bid to show prospective metal and cable thieves, as well scrap metal dealers who flout the law, that crime doesn't pay.

The day of action comes on the back of another year of increasing metal prices on world markets, which have been mirrored by a similar rise in the number of thefts of rail, cable and other metal.

Superintendent Paul Brogden, who headed the operation for BTP, said: "Cable theft is one of the biggest issues facing the rail industry today. Each year the actions of cable thieves cost train operating companies, Network Rail, public utilities companies and local communities millions of pounds in repairs and lost business.^

The operation took place across several areas including north and east London, Essex, the Thames Valley, Coventry, Northampton and Rugby.

More than 40 scrap metal dealers were visited and searched and a total of nine formal written warnings were given for inadequate record keeping.

Warnings were given to dealers in Rugby, Southend, Grays, Basildon, Benfleet, Harlow, Witney, Banbury and Hackney.

Seven arrests were made in dawn raids in Bow (east London), Stanmore, Pangbourne (two men arrested), Coventry and Northampton (one man and one woman arrested).

^Thankfully the thieves are not putting rail passengers at risk when signal cable is damaged because any signals attached to a severed cable will automatically switch to red, halting any trains on the track,^ added Supt Brogden. ^But the culprits are certainly putting themselves in harm^s way. The majority of cable thieves are opportunist and as such will have little or no understanding of the cable they attempt to steal. Some of this cable carries extremely high voltage and we have seen a number of cases in which thieves have been seriously injured, suffering extensive burns, after cutting through live cable."

The operation was the latest response to cable and general metal theft, which saw BTP officers continue to target thieves and their means of carrying and selling on stolen cable.

Cable seized on the day included:

- 10 tons of electricity power cabling from the Reading area.

- One ton of suspect copper cabling and 25 bags of copper piping found at a scrap yard in Benfleet.

- Twenty-five 5ft lengths of cabling recovered from the Romford area.

- Five tons of railway cabling recovered from Wokingham area.

- Half a ton of cabling (believed to belong to BT and Network Rail) recovered from the Coventry area.

Details of arrests (all bailed pending further enquiries).

21 year old man from Pangbourne, Berkshire.
20 year old man from Reading, Berkshire.
40 year old man from Bow, east London.
34 year old man from Stanmore, north west London.
43 year old man and a 49 year-old woman, no fixed abode, but known to Northampton area.
42 year old man from Coventry.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: SDS on October 26, 2010, 15:48:23
Whats the point in giving BTP more powers when they don't even use the ones they currently have!
BTP run the National data base for metal thefts, BTP were the Police force who identified a National problem when they contacted other Police Forces and found that BT, DNO's Telecom companies all had thefts but there was not coordinated recording.  There are very limited powers even if they stop a van with cable inside they (police) have to prove it is stolen.  Scrap dealers are the ones to hit they are supposed to keep accurate records of vehicle regs names and addresses of sellers as a friend of mine who is a DCI in a local force the number of times Mickey Mouse etc is listed and non existent address and vehicle regs that a incorrect.

I deal with BTP quite regularly regarding worksite security they are proactive they liaise with local forces to increase patrols but BTP is only a small force

Police have virtually unrestricted powers to stop a moving vehicle, and then do a search. But most cable is normally security marked anyway (be it overt or covert) that's the proof.
Should just hammer the scrap dealers and shut them down. Thought various regs and acts made them have to keep an accurate record and if its wrong, then penalties?

My personal opinion (and that of many of my colleagues) of BTP is that they are useless and never assist when you need them to. They waste money on pointless satisfaction surveys and fail to prosecute staff assaults (yes I know thats the CPS, but then if the CPS never get the file in the first place??....). Should just merge BTP into civi police.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on December 11, 2010, 11:50:31
Elsewhere in these forums the subject of cable thefts often appears as the reason for causing disruption. 

Metal theft is at an almost pandemic level in other parts of the network to FGW particularly in the Southeastern, Southern and Southwestern TOC areas where traction substations are raided and striped of all or part of the copper used to earth the electrical equipment while this does not very often cause train delays it does limit the ability of Maintenance and renewals teams from accessing these substation unless they are switched out this more often than not can only be at night when not trains are running, it is not unknown for the copper to be replaced for it to nicked the next night.  While there are alarm systems and other security measures these thieves are become very cleaver at defeating these.

Last weekend a gang broke into a substation in South London to steal the copper earthing during the execution of their crime one of them, a 28 year old male, cut into a live 33,000 volt cable, this resulted in his death.  While it is easy not to have any sympathy with these thieves but the victims death would have been horrific possibly prolonged and very traumatic for those with him at the time I could not wish that on anyone the message needs to get out there that electrical substations are dangerous places and they will kill.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: smokey on December 11, 2010, 11:59:38
Well I've said on other post's that I've a cheap idea that will help NR catch cable thieves, but no one seems interested.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on December 11, 2010, 12:03:34
Very little sympathy for the victim or those that witnessed his death.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: devon_metro on December 11, 2010, 14:20:04
The local substation feeding the 3rd rail is guarded 24hours by security. Are similar operations not in place elsewhere?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on December 11, 2010, 15:04:35
The local substation feeding the 3rd rail is guarded 24hours by security. Are similar operations not in place elsewhere?

With close on a 1000 traction substations etc on the former Southern Region and somewhere about the same in 25kV sites around the network 24 hour a day security guards are not feasible, there are other methods now being deployed.

This link will take you to This is London News website article mentioned in the OP  http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/whereilive/southeast/lewisham/8729891.PENGE___CATFORD__Five_arrested_after_electrocuted_body_found_near_train_line/ (http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/whereilive/southeast/lewisham/8729891.PENGE___CATFORD__Five_arrested_after_electrocuted_body_found_near_train_line/)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 11, 2010, 22:32:55
Very little sympathy for the victim or those that witnessed his death.

On the other hand, one could say, one has 'very little sympathy for the culprit ... or those that witnessed his death ...'  ::)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on December 11, 2010, 22:56:46
Agreed.

'victim' was probably the wrong choice of word. Although the culprit was a victim of his own stupidity. A perfect candidate for a Darwin Award.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on December 11, 2010, 23:16:55
Very little sympathy for the victim or those that witnessed his death.

On the other hand, one could say, one has 'very little sympathy for the culprit ... or those that witnessed his death ...'  ::)
Agreed.

'victim' was probably the wrong choice of word. Although the culprit was a victim of his own stupidity. A perfect candidate for a Darwin Award.

Agreed - the perpetrator was a victim of the crime he was executing.   

We have been waiting for such an event to to happen, just wish it was not on one of my projects. 

The damage these criminals cause for a quite a small amount of money is unbelievable and quite frankly the sentencing given out when caught is light compared to the damage because the charge is based on the scrap value.

having said that this person would have died a hideous death


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 11, 2010, 23:35:50
Thanks, Electric train.  :-X

I don't think any of us here are minimising the implications, or the fatal outcome, of such an event: but, the fact of the matter remains, that individual made a conscious decision to break into an electricity sub-station and cut into electrical cables there.  The fact that he suffered an awful death as a result is simply what Network Rail and others have been constantly warning could happen, for years now.

I don't have any answer to this problem - other than our trying to emphasize, yet again, the potentially lethal results of any such railway trespass?

CfN.  :(


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Mookiemoo on December 12, 2010, 04:00:43
if he had any intelligence he could - I assume - have earthed the cutters in non conducting material and - as long as not touched the wire before   sheathing in non conducting - would have been ok

Its not rocket science

hence a darwin award should be given


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on December 12, 2010, 08:26:12
if he had any intelligence he could - I assume - have earthed the cutters in non conducting material and - as long as not touched the wire before   sheathing in non conducting - would have been ok

Its not rocket science

hence a darwin award should be given

That works for low voltages like 240 volts but not for high voltages like 33,000 volts (the approx energy discharged in this event in less than 1 second was 1,000,000 watts in simple terms enough energy to boil a 1000 kettles)

Chris you are right that this has been waiting to happen and the villains while I would not say they got their just deserts I do not have that much sympathy for them either .............. just been a bad week trying to work a project around this destruction of the equipment by thieves and the fact that one of them lost their life in doing so


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: eightf48544 on December 12, 2010, 10:44:17
One thing I notice when I first went to Italy by train is that there was a sign on every O/H mast a rather chilling "Skull and Crossbones" with something like "Piricole de Morte" underneath.

Even to a non Italian speaker the message was clear.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Bob_Blakey on December 12, 2010, 11:22:30
I think the rail industry, Network Rail & the DfT in particular, may be missing a trick here; I stand to be corrected but I would guess that the incident was only reported in the area around which it occurred. The national broadcasters could surely be persuaded to include this in national bulletins in the, possibly forlorn, hope that at least some of the potential miscreants would be warned off.

Or is this an extremely naive view of human nature?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on December 12, 2010, 12:08:49
I think the rail industry, Network Rail & the DfT in particular, may be missing a trick here; I stand to be corrected but I would guess that the incident was only reported in the area around which it occurred. The national broadcasters could surely be persuaded to include this in national bulletins in the, possibly forlorn, hope that at least some of the potential miscreants would be warned off.

Or is this an extremely naive view of human nature?
The incident is only recent there are a lot of "on going inquires"

BTP are due to do a "Crime Watch" program in the near future about metal thefts, they may use this incident.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Phil on December 12, 2010, 13:17:54
Shocking story.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on April 08, 2011, 19:33:27
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12855504):

Quote
Derbyshire railway cable theft gang jailed

Four members of a gang who cost Network Rail almost ^1m by stealing copper cables from rail lines have been jailed. The men from Heanor and Langley Mill targeted tracks across England, causing train delays and cancellations.

Nottingham Crown Court heard they made more than 150 trips and stole 27 tonnes of cable over an 18-month period. Jailing the men for four years each, the judge said they had potentially put many lives at risk.

Network Rail claimed the crimes cost it ^933,896 in repairs and other charges. The thefts also resulted in train delays totalling more than 320 hours and some cancellations.

Lives endangered

The group's thefts included earthing cables, designed to protect workers repairing the line, the court heard.

Thomas Ingram, 23, of Lockton Avenue, Heanor, Ian Radford, 39, of Starthe Bank, Heanor, David Gatfield, 43, of Stainsby Avenue, Heanor and Scott Clark, 26, of Horsley Crescent, Langley Mill, were each jailed for four years.

They all pleaded guilty to conspiracy to steal and conspiracy to covert stolen property at a previous hearing.

The judge told them they had put the travelling public in positive danger and said they could have derailed a train, with the horrendous consequence of loss of life.

Lee Bamford, 34, of Calladine Court, Heanor, failed to appear in court and will be sentenced later. Martin Harriman, 23, of Watkinson Street, Heanor, received an eight month sentence suspended for two years and must do 150 hours unpaid work.

Detectives found the gang visited four metal recyclers in Ilkeston, Alfreton and Langley Mill, in order to sell on the stolen cable, often using false names and identification. Their investigation traced the gang's activity back to 2008 and the men were charged in September 2010.

Ch Supt Mark Smith of British Transport Police said: "The criminal behaviour of this gang resulted in countless problems for commuters as the rail industry was seriously compromised by the thefts which were carried out in a huge geographical area - from Watford in the south to Stockport in the north."

Outside court he added: "This group of individuals were extremely determined. They had gone to considerable lengths of organisation in terms of equipping themselves with maps of the areas, doing reconnoitring missions, using satellite navigation technology to find the locations to attack - a significant operation."

and.... Also from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-13015178):

Quote
Railway cable thefts ringleader jailed

The 34-year-old ringleader of a Derbyshire gang which caused travel chaos by stealing copper cables from rail lines has been jailed. Lee Bamford, of Calladine Close, Heanor, was sentenced at Derby Crown Court for four-and-a-half years.

He ran an operation that targeted tracks across England, causing delays and cancellations and costing ^1m.

Bamford pleaded guilty to conspiracy to steal and conspiracy to covert stolen property, at a previous hearing. He was jailed for four years and six months for both counts, to run concurrently.

Network Rail claimed the crimes cost it ^933,896 in repairs and other charges.

'Thousands' affected

Detectives found the gang visited metal recyclers in Derbyshire in order to sell on the stolen cable, often using false names and identification.

The other members of the gang were sentenced last month but Bamford failed to appear in court.

Det Insp Terry Pearce, who led the investigation for British Transport Police, said: "Whilst many criminals see cable theft as a victimless crime, the reality is that it is an attack on communities and the very infrastructure that keeps the country operating. Without vital rail services many people cannot go about their daily business which means work hours are lost, appointments are missed and important visits - perhaps to hospitals or loved ones - cannot be made. Bamford and his cohorts prevented thousands of people from making such journeys and attacked the railway to make what was, for all the effort and time put into the thefts, a relatively modest amount."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 10, 2011, 23:01:14
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12879764):

Quote
It was a major police operation - over two nights, British Transport Police scoured the West Coast Mainline and Channel Tunnel Rail Link.

They used a helicopter, a specially-adapted "quiet train", thermal imaging equipment, motion detectors, police dogs and motorbikes for Operation Elementary.

The reason? People have been stealing copper signal and power cables, causing havoc on the rail network.

It is just one example of a crime wave plaguing the country - scrap metal theft.

The problem is simple: international metals prices are being driven up and up by the insatiable demand of China and other booming economies.

And with the prices for recyclable metal also hitting new highs, this age-old crime is becoming endemic.

A quarter of Hertfordshire lost its broadband connection last year because of telecoms cable theft.

Thefts from the nation's electricity and gas infrastructure are currently running at double the rate of a year ago, according to Tony Glover of industry group Energy Networks. "It is pathetic, quite frankly," he says. "As a crime, it is sometimes as little as ^5, ^10, ^20, never more than ^100 worth in terms of the value of the copper."

Yet the disruption can be enormous, he says. In one incident the lights went out at 94,000 homes in Kent because someone tried to steal high voltage transmission cables from under a bridge in Dartford.

It is a similar story on the railways.

In March, six men were convicted of cutting cabling at sites selected using the internet - their activity caused nearly ^1m worth of repair costs and 322 hours of train delays.

The problem took hold on the railways five years ago in parts of Yorkshire long associated with heavy industry and metal scrappage, Network Rail spokesman Rachel Lowe says. "It's by far the worst region even today," she notes.

But now it has spread across the UK, with Network Rail estimating that the cumulative cost as of late 2010 stood at ^35m. In London the Central Line was affected earlier this year and the planned Docklands Light Railway extension has been delayed by repeated thefts from the construction site.

The crime can also be dangerous. Copper gas piping is often stolen from outside houses, causing an explosion in one case last March, and overnight disappearance of manhole covers and road traffic signs are also common.

Moreover, the perpetrators often take suicidal risks themselves - one would-be thief was killed on the railway last year, as were three in separate incidents at electricity substations.

Given the high voltages involved, Mr Glover of Energy Networks says those killed were not so much electrocuted as "burned and blown up". He worries that they are now going after governor stations - the gas industry's equivalent of substations - offering a "potentially explosive combination" of high pressure gas and electricity cables.

All of which begs the question, who would risk their lives for such small gains and with such apparent disregard for the general public?

"In the main, they are very small-scale, amateur," says Mr Glover. "These opportunistic thieves often haven't a clue about the dangers they are taking on."

They deliver the stolen metal to scrap yards in the UK which wilfully turn a blind eye. He says some openly advertise themselves as "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" services.

Police say the bulk of this petty crime is driven by drug addiction or other forms of substance abuse.

"These are habitual criminals seeking routine profits to fund a fairly haphazard, itinerant lifestyle," says Superintendent Paul Brogden of the British Transport Police.

The railway thieves convicted last month spent their earnings on drugs and McDonald's.

But there is a growing trend of more sophisticated gangs, Mr Glover says, for example stealing high voltage overhead power cables from the national grid.

Some foreign gangs are thought to be shipping their loot abroad, to be laundered through continental scrap dealers.

Home-grown criminals are also learning on the job: "Once criminals find a lucrative market, they will refine their tactics over time," notes Superintendent Brogden. And he says they have been passing their tactics on.

A fraternity of 50 to 60 operators in Essex was originally spawned when a northern gang relocated after their old stamping ground started to be policed more heavily.

So what can be done? One solution is to replace copper and lead with cheaper alternatives.

The gas industry is switching to steel pipes, while aluminium wiring is coming into use for electricity.

Surrey County Council now replaces missing road signs with plastic ones.

Another technique is to make stolen metal more clearly identifiable, for example by embossing it.

Rail and utility firms are coating critical pieces of metal with Smartwater. Developed by a UK firm, it is an indelible paint, only visible under ultraviolet light, that contains a chemical code unique to the item being protected.

"The Smartwater brand is very well known to the criminal fraternity," says company spokesman David Reynolds, who claims the product deters thefts.

Industries and the police set up a metals theft taskforce last year to share intelligence. The taskforce is working with the scrap metal industry to help legitimate dealers spot stolen goods.

And it wants to raise public awareness of the crime, something police shied away from before, for fear of encouraging more thefts. But now - with the crime having gone nationwide - the genie is out of the bottle.

"Perpetrators need to know they are not only putting their own lives at risk, but also entering a very well-policed environment," says Superintendent Brogden.

Yet Mr Glover, who represents the energy industry on the taskforce, is not optimistic. "We've had three to four years of initiatives based on policing the issue and they have failed," he says. "The existing legislation is literally out of the age of Steptoe and Son," he says.

The 1964 Scrap Metal Dealers Act gives the police the right to seize stolen metal, but not to shut down dealerships caught receiving it. The police are pushing for the right to raid dealers without a warrant.

"There are very good lines of communication from certain dealers to the thieves," says Superintendent Brogden.

They also want to ban scrap merchants from paying in cash. But the scrap metal industry takes a different view.

"Imposing new police powers or restrictions on our members in untimely, unwelcome and will not help to combat the issue of of metal theft," says Ian Hetherington, who heads up the British Metals Recycling Association.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 27, 2011, 17:21:10
From the BTP press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/TRANSPORT-POLICE-APPEAL-FOR-INFORMATION-AFTER-SUSPECTED-CABLE-THIEF-SUFFERS-BURNS-NUNEATON-147d.aspx):

Quote
British Transport Police officers are appealing for information and witnesses after a man suffered burns to his hands in an apparent attempt to steal cable from the railway line in Nuneaton.

Launching an appeal for information into the incident at Stockingford, officers warned members of the public that the incident highlighted the dangers associated with cable theft.

As well as the dangers of trespassing on the railway line, many of the cables targeted by thieves have 50,000 volts running through them and anyone who attempts to steal the materials risk being electrocuted or badly burned.

Detective Sergeant Graham Moss, part of Op Leopard ^ BTP^s dedicated team targeting cable thieves, said the incident was reported to police shortly before 12.30am on Monday 26 April.

^Officers attended the railway line in the Beverley Avenue area and discovered live railway cable had been cut at the scene. Evidence at the scene also suggests that whoever had attempted to steal the cable will have suffered burns to their hands as a result of the high voltage running through the cable.

^I would therefore appeal to anyone who knows someone who has suffered burns since the early hours of the morning of Monday 26 April, or who has information which they believe can assist the investigation, to come forward in strict confidence.

"This incident illustrates what a dangerous environment the railway can be. It^s essential that we find this person as they may also need hospital treatment for their injuries."

Network Rail and the independent charity Crimestoppers offer a ^1,000 reward for information which leads to the successful conviction of cable thieves.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on April 27, 2011, 17:44:58
Hmmm - I hope he gets locked up too. A strong message needs sending to these thieves.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: anthony215 on April 28, 2011, 10:01:15
ow well, hope the idiot doesnt decide to sue. If they do the judge should throw it out.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on April 28, 2011, 10:07:40
Hmmm - I hope he gets locked up too. A strong message needs sending to these thieves.

Yes, and made to pay for the damage as well !
IMHO cable theft is not taken seriously enough by either the police or the courts.
Apart from the costs that these thefts impose on the railway, persistant theft has been used as an argument against more electrification.

And slightly O/T, a growing number of power cuts are caused by cable theft in rural areas.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: willc on April 28, 2011, 11:27:52
Perhaps you might care to do a little basic research before berating the police and courts.

BTP take it extremely seriously and the courts are cottoning on too. In the past five weeks or so, the leader of a gang of cable thieves has got four-and-a-half years (most of the rest got four years each), there have been arrests, people charged, visits to scrap dealers, reward offers, etc. They also arrested 15 people in South Wales at the start of March. Look at the press releases on the BTP website to see how seriously they take the issue and for details of the court case in the East Midlands.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on April 28, 2011, 11:54:12
And prior to that?

It is true that they were very slow out of their blocks on this....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on April 28, 2011, 12:01:03
Hmmm - I hope he gets locked up too. A strong message needs sending to these thieves.
Yes, and made to pay for the damage as well !
IMHO cable theft is not taken seriously enough by either the police or the courts.
Apart from the costs that these thefts impose on the railway, persistant theft has been used as an argument against more electrification.

And slightly O/T, a growing number of power cuts are caused by cable theft in rural areas.
Having been involved with BTP when dealing with the aftermath of cable thefts (where 1 thief lost his life another badly burnt) BTP are thorougher with their investigation, indeed they are the only Police Force that maintain a National data base of these thefts which enables them to profile the offences and draw on intelligence across a wide area.

Remember BTP is a very small Police Force

These metal thieves are threatening all of our lives, they steal the earthing from electrical substations which can result is lethal voltages on the system that supply our homes and work places.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on April 28, 2011, 16:07:13
Perhaps you might care to do a little basic research before berating the police and courts.

BTP take it extremely seriously and the courts are cottoning on too. In the past five weeks or so, the leader of a gang of cable thieves has got four-and-a-half years (most of the rest got four years each), there have been arrests, people charged, visits to scrap dealers, reward offers, etc. They also arrested 15 people in South Wales at the start of March. Look at the press releases on the BTP website to see how seriously they take the issue and for details of the court case in the East Midlands.


Perhaps it is now being taken more seriously, but in the recent past I have read of cable thieves receiving modest fines, community service orders, suspended sentences and other very slight punishments.
Prison sentences of 4 years should be a detterent, though presumably this is not the norm, or cable theft would be less popular.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on April 28, 2011, 18:17:59
Prison sentences of 4 years should be a detterent, though presumably this is not the norm, or cable theft would be less popular.

These thieves work on a risk verse consequences the risk being caught, they believe that in the middle of the night at a remote location there is little chance of being caught; hence in some recent cases BTP working with NR and LU have been presenting evidence in court that even though the "scrap value" is only tens or a few hundreds of pounds the damage caused is tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds, in a couple of cases the Judges have accepted argument put of the risk to railway employees and the traveling public.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: willc on April 28, 2011, 18:50:37
Perhaps you might care to do a little basic research before berating the police and courts.

BTP take it extremely seriously and the courts are cottoning on too. In the past five weeks or so, the leader of a gang of cable thieves has got four-and-a-half years (most of the rest got four years each), there have been arrests, people charged, visits to scrap dealers, reward offers, etc. They also arrested 15 people in South Wales at the start of March. Look at the press releases on the BTP website to see how seriously they take the issue and for details of the court case in the East Midlands.


Perhaps it is now being taken more seriously, but in the recent past I have read of cable thieves receiving modest fines, community service orders, suspended sentences and other very slight punishments.
Prison sentences of 4 years should be a detterent, though presumably this is not the norm, or cable theft would be less popular.

'Perhaps now'? Your IMHO seemed very much directed at the present - and was written in the present tense. And the reason cable theft is so popular is nothing to do with anything BTP did/are doing or sentencing policy in courts, it is because of China's insatiable appetite for copper and the lack of scruples of some scrap dealers about where material comes from. This is an international problem - just put cable theft in a news search on Google and you will see stories from all over the world pop up.

As electric train says the message is getting through to judges, thanks to the efforts of BTP and Network Rail to make clear the massive disruption that can be caused, even if the actual quantity of metal stolen is small.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on April 28, 2011, 19:53:01
The incident I was dealing with which cost 1 thief his life and another to get quite badly burnt, they part of a gang of 4, the 2 uninjured managed to sell their contraband before being arrested however the metal was recovered from a scrap dealer who had given the thieves ^480 for it, to these thieves even ^120 each would have paid for their drugs for the week, the cost to NR  has been in the order of ^60,000 to repair the damage they caused.

Theft of substation earthing is a weekly occurrence and now the lighter evenings are here it likely to be a daily occurrence it not only impacts on the operational safety of the system it also impacts on renewals projects because staff or contractors cannot operate equipment at substation where earthing has been stolen until it has been repaired all of which causes contractual delays which costs money.

There will be more serious injuries and even deaths while this crime wave persists.  There are a number of techniques being deployed to reduce the value of the metal used as well as covert and overt security measures to protect cables.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on April 28, 2011, 21:45:23
Indeed there are - but I've little sympathy for those killed or burnt. They know the risks.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 30, 2011, 18:33:14
From the BTP press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/WARWICKSHIRE-RAILWAY-CABLE-THIEF-JAILED-1505.aspx):

Quote
A thief who caused nearly 7,000 minutes of delay to trains in Warwickshire and cost Network Rail ^305,000 in compensation to train operators, has been sent to prison for 20 months, following a British Transport Police (BTP) investigation.

Wayne Stephen Griffin, 26, of Augusta Place, Leamington, pleaded guilty to four offences of cable theft carried out between 6 and 29 July 2010 and was sentenced at Leamington Spa Crown Court today, Friday 27 May 2011.

In addition to the delays and financial penalties incurred by the rail network, Griffin^s offences caused 43 trains to be cancelled, causing massive inconvenience to thousands of passengers.

Griffin first struck in Lapworth on Tuesday 6 July 2010 when he stole 20 metres of signalling cable. Two days later he stole a further 40 metres of cable from the railway at Gibbet Hill.

On Wednesday 21 July 2010, 50 metres of cable was stolen in Brinklow before Griffin returned to Lapworth on Thursday 29 July and stole a further 20 metres of power cable from the railway.

Following a painstaking investigation by BTP officers, a suspect vehicle was seen at a petrol station on the A4177 at Hatton at around 5.30am on 29 July 2010 by Warwickshire Police officers.

The car was searched and a large quantity of cable was found in the boot along with a quantity of tools.

Some of the cable had been stripped of its outer casing to reveal its copper core. The vehicle was seized, along with the tools which were suspected of having been used to cut the cable, a SatNav and mobile phones.

Both Griffin, who was the passenger in the car, and the driver, Richard Stojsavljevic, were arrested by the Warwickshire Police officers on suspicion of cable theft and handed over to BTP officers.

Enquiries by BTP officers linked both Stojsavljevic^s vehicle and Griffin to a number of cable thefts. The vehicle and its occupants were also seen visiting a number of scrap metal dealers where quantities of cable were deposited.

When interviewed, Griffin admitted to four counts of theft. At today's hearing, he was jailed for 20 months for each of the four counts, to run concurrently.

Stojsavljevic, 25, of Vauxhall Close, Coventry, pleaded guilty to handling stolen goods and was dealt with by the courts on 15 December 2010. He was given a two-month prison sentence, suspended for 12 months, and ordered to pay ^85 towards prosecution costs.

Griffin^s sentencing comes just days after Network Rail released figures showing there had been 58 cable theft incidents across the West Midlands in the last financial year which cost the company ^1.5m in compensation.

Speaking after today's hearing, Jo Kaye, Network Rail route director, said: ^A great deal of effort by our people and British Transport Police resulted in Griffin being brought to court. Criminals like him disrupt the lives of thousands of people and result in huge amounts of money being wasted that could otherwise be used to improve the railway. I hope this sentence sends a clear message to all would-be thieves about the consequences of being caught.^

Detective Inspector Robin Conway, who led the investigation for BTP, said: ^While many criminals see cable theft as a victimless crime, the reality is that it is an attack on communities and the very infrastructure that keeps the country operating. Without vital rail services, many people cannot go about their daily business which means work hours are lost, appointments are missed and important visits ^ perhaps to hospitals or loved ones ^ cannot be made.^

Anyone with information about cable theft should contact British Transport Police or Crimestoppers where they can report the crime anonymously and could receive up to ^1,000 reward if their information leads to a conviction.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on May 30, 2011, 18:46:07
Sentence far too short


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on May 31, 2011, 16:52:58
The article has the following:

The vehicle and its occupants were also seen visiting a number of scrap metal dealers where quantities of cable were deposited.

I hope the scrap metal dealers have been charged with receiving stolen property. It would be interesting to know.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2011, 16:54:11
You couldn't prove that they knew it was stolen.....only recently have they started using marked cable....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 07, 2011, 16:08:17
This report http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266)
Notes the serious burns received by a thief, note however that only a suspended sentence was imposed, not an actual prison term.

Suspended sentences and community service orders seem to be the norm, with actual prison terms the exception.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 07, 2011, 17:01:55
Unfortunately, only serial reoffenders for theft generally get locked up....and this is no different to theft of anything else really.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on June 07, 2011, 17:10:51
While acknowledging it's a serious issue is there really 50,000 volts running through railway cables?  I thought the overhead was 25,000v. I know it's the amps that kill (after all a taser gun delivers 50,000v) but seems an awful lot of electricity.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: paul7575 on June 07, 2011, 18:17:51
While acknowledging it's a serious issue is there really 50,000 volts running through railway cables?  I thought the overhead was 25,000v. I know it's the amps that kill (after all a taser gun delivers 50,000v) but seems an awful lot of electricity.


There's a certain element of the 'worst case scenario' here by BTP. 

But yes, the modernised sections of the WCML do use a 50 kV autotransformer system, as will the GWML when it is done, but no individual cable is at higher than 25 kV to neutral.  As well as the catenary there is a second anti-phase 25 kV feeder, which can usually seen strung along the outside of the portals but stood on insulators.  So if someone is daft or skilled enough to touch both phases of the supply at once, yes they'll get a 50kV shock, but it would be pretty difficult to do so.

I'm unaware of any online detailed drawings of how it all works - but the key feature is these autotransformers at intervals along the line that have 50kV across them - it is an improvement on the old booster transformer system, that was an earlier solution to volt drop with distance.

Paul


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on June 07, 2011, 23:19:01
BBC have an interview here with a self confessed cable thief. Admittedly not on the railway but should serve as a warning to anyone tempted to try it.
 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266  (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-13678266)
 


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 08, 2011, 10:35:14
Yes, the more modern schemes do use 50KV , but only half that to earth.
Anyone tampering with such equipment would be liable to receive a shock at 25 KV, probably fatal but not allways.

To receive a shock at 50 KV one would have to well insulated from earth, but then touch both of the live conductors at the same time, which is unlikely in practice.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 10, 2011, 09:52:32
Most services cancelled or delayed, some by several hours.
Signalling failure in the Woking area, suspected to have been caused by cable thieves.

Some reports suggest that the first priority of the BTP and/or local police was to keep everyone on the full and standing trains, no matter what.
It is all very well saying that seats are very last century, and that new commuter trains should be primarily designed for standing, but who wants to stand for 4 hours when major breakdowns occur, as seems to be happening more often.

Allowing passengers of the train is not be considered lightly, but when movement is unlikely for some hours, should perhaps be considered.
After at least 2 recent evenings of very bad delays at waterloo, increasing numbers of regular victims are starting to look upon the BTP as the enenmy, who are there to obstruct, not to help.

I feel that more could have been done, in particular that trains held at red signals, should have been allowed to proceed very cautiously to the next station.





Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: grahame on June 10, 2011, 13:41:32
I don't know whether delays are becoming more commonplace (not sure if there were comparable stats that we could look at 20 or 40 years ago) but I can certainly remember being stuck for 4 hours at Shifnal on a special (BR arranged) train;  it was comfortable, all seated, and they arranged taxis for us when we got back to St Pancras at 3 in the morning.

BUT ... had we been standing, then a regrettable but good humoured incident (we WERE kept informed) would have turned into an unacceptable one about which we would have been (rightfully IMHO) really upset.

The "people shouldn't be expected to stand for more than half an hour" guideline should include circumstances that are beyond the timetable ... such as where there's disruption.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on June 10, 2011, 13:42:45
From the BBC
Quote

Delays chaos prompts train review

A rail company has said it will review the way it responds to service disruption after thousands of passengers were stranded for hours.

A heavily pregnant woman was among a group who got off one of the South West Trains (SWT) services outside Woking, Surrey and walked along the tracks.

SWT said Thursday night's problems on trains in and out of London Waterloo were caused by vandalism to a cable.

"We are committed to learning any lessons," it said.

Network Rail said 60 trains out of London Waterloo were affected by the signalling fault.

Further delays were caused because power to the rails had to be turned off when the passengers went on to the track.

'Police angry'

Emma Firth, from Farnham, who is eight months pregnant, said: "Me and another man talked to each other and said: 'This is our only chance'.

"In my condition I wasn't going to sleep overnight on a train, I had no food or drink.

"So the man gave me a piggy back off the train and helped me walk down the track.


Emma Firth was given a piggy back by another passenger
"One guard, with a torch, helped us walk across the track safely and was very polite but the police at the gates were very angry, saying we had trespassed.

"I got home around 2300 BST."

Another passenger, who asked only to be named as Keith, said he took the 18.33 South West Trains service from Clapham, which ground to a halt near Woking.

He said the passengers, who also included a diabetic man who needed insulin, decided to get off the train after about two hours.

"There were constant announcements every five minutes from the train driver saying he did not know when we would be moving.

"When we got to the gates the police tried to get our names, saying we were trespassing and that South West Trains take this behaviour very seriously.

"They didn't manage to get any of our names in the end. I got home at around 23.30."

Passenger Tim Leunig was stuck at Waterloo.

"What was amazing was the lack of information at Waterloo and the lack of thinking through which trains to run and which to cancel," he said.


Passengers at Waterloo said they were frustrated by the lack of information (picture by Kylie Barton)
"They kept blaming different things."

'Tell the drivers'

MP for Mole Valley, Sir Paul Beresford, said: "It seems to me as though there was a lack of communication between Network Rail and South West Trains, particularly as evacuation has to be done really carefully.

"Someone should have been telling the drivers and the drivers should have been telling people."

SWT trains said some services had to be cancelled on Friday morning and others were running with fewer carriages than normal.

It apologised for the latest in a series of disruptions to hit passengers this week.

"The signalling problems are now reported to have been caused by deliberate damage to signalling system cable," it said.

"We are extremely angry and frustrated that mindless and irresponsible vandalism meant that many of our passengers had a terrible journey last night.

"As a matter of course, we will work with Network Rail to review the response to last night's disruption.

"We are committed to learning any lessons and taking any steps required to improve the flow of information to passengers."


Network Rail said 60 trains, all from London Waterloo, were affected by the disruption
Transport Secretary Philip Hammond said the review would look at what happened and the communications issues.

"Whatever the original cause we need a proper robust and reliable system for communicating with passengers and getting them to stations as quickly as possible," he said.

"Anyone running a business, when something goes wrong, needs to talk to their customers."

British Transport Police said its officers spoke to the passengers at Woking about the dangers of going onto the line without being directed to do so by rail staff or a police officer.

"We understand the concerns of passengers, particularly the heavily pregnant woman, and we are sorry if anyone felt our officers were not sympathetic to their plight."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on June 10, 2011, 13:46:55
Passengers exiting onto the track on their own is simple not acceptable, although one wonders if the on-train staff did enough to keep people informed and reassured if they felt that they had to do that


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 10, 2011, 13:49:53
Trouble is, this passenger action wil be catching.....it'll start happening more & more often until someone puts a foot wrong. Unfortunately. There's no way to stop it.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on June 10, 2011, 13:59:16
About 15 years ago there was a fire on board a rush hour HST and it came to a stand near Maidenhead. The only injury was a passenger who climbed out of the train and was killed by a train on the adjacent line.

The train is usually the safest place to be but people need constantly convincing of this. I'm not sure what the answer is - repeating that message over a 2 or 3 hour period is going to lose its impact.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 10, 2011, 14:06:39
Passengers exiting onto the track on their own is simple not acceptable, although one wonders if the on-train staff did enough to keep people informed and reassured if they felt that they had to do that

I am afraid that I might be tempted to leave after the first 2 hours of standing.
How long should one wait ?
No matter how many informative or reassuring announcements are made, there has to be a limit as to for how long standing in cramped conditions is reasonable.

Whilst another review is promised, the response to disruption does seem very poorly organised.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on June 10, 2011, 14:17:26
nothing will get done... if anything they are more likely to find a way to prevent the doors from being forced open.... welcome to the human robot society


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Brucey on June 10, 2011, 15:13:19
Another story that demonstrates a trained second person (a conductor/guard or otherwise) should be present on board trains, even if they only reassure passengers that remaining on the train is the best option.

Last time I was on the tube, I was looking at a door and noticed no emergency door release.  I assume there is one somewhere, but they've put it out of reach to prevent situations like this.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on June 10, 2011, 15:20:41
Another story that demonstrates a trained second person (a conductor/guard or otherwise) should be present on board trains, even if they only reassure passengers that remaining on the train is the best option.

absolutely agree.  I suspect that in these days of track-cicuits and very low risk from collisions that this is possiblty one of the most important reasons for a second staff member on the train (to protect passengers from their own frustration and stupidity).

In my experience, some staff are good at it, but some are not and it should really be given high priority as it is just as much a part of the driver's and guard's safety critical role as their ability to place detonators or call the signaller.

 


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on June 10, 2011, 15:25:27
I am afraid that I might be tempted to leave after the first 2 hours of standing.
How long should one wait ?
No matter how many informative or reassuring announcements are made, there has to be a limit as to for how long standing in cramped conditions is reasonable.

I agree, but the point is that you shouldn't leave of your own volition.  There is a limit to how long you shoudl stand, butteh staff should know what this is and safely escort people off the train once it is reached.

An additional problem with what happened at Waterloo is that once a few selfish people where on the track, NR had to turn teh power off.  This delayed other people on their trains longer and meant that air-con failed.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: MrC on June 10, 2011, 16:06:26
There is a limit to how long you shoudl stand, butteh staff should know what this is and safely escort people off the train once it is reached.

Which is fine if you have 1 or 2 trains, but this was exceptional as at the peak of the problems there were 50-60 trains stuck for various amounts of time over a large area, many in places where access was poor or non-existent, and many with 100s of people on. Evacuations under those sorts of conditions need a significant amount of planning, staff and, just as importantly, time. Plus once you've got all these people off the trains you've then got to get them from wherever they are to their destinations. And meanwhile fix the original problem and get the service up again.

I'm not in the habit of making excuses for the railway but this was a major incident with knock-on effects well outside the area where the outage occurred and, as such, a single TOC plus local NR staff are simply going to be overwhelmed. The only real recovery option was to try and get the service back and trains moving - large scale evacuations would have just made the problems far far worse.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: inspector_blakey on June 10, 2011, 16:26:17
Another story that demonstrates a trained second person (a conductor/guard or otherwise) should be present on board trains, even if they only reassure passengers that remaining on the train is the best option.

All SWT services are driver/guard operated, so I'm afraid that point isn't valid here. It may be that the comment about the "train driver" making announcements was borne out of ignorance on the part of the member of the public, because I'd guess it was probably the guard.

Realistically there's only so much one member of staff can do - if a train full of cretinous passengers decide they want to operate the emergency door releases and go wandering over the third rail around Clapham Junction there's not much that a single guard can do to prevent that physically happening.

I think we're up to three similar incidents in the last couple of weeks now, aren't we? That includes one where a woman got herself seriously burned by the juice rail. I'd be rather concerned that these incidents, and the media coverage of them, are in danger of setting a worrying precedent.

Edited to add...

There's a hair-raising video on youtube somewhere (I can't find it right now, but others may well know what I'm talking about) which shows an incident which I think was in France. A suburban train came to a halt for some reason, and after a few minutes the passengers apparently decided en masse to operate door releases and start wandering all over the track. The video shows a TGV or other high-speed service scything through the crowd on the adjacent line. By a miracle nobody was killed or injured but it's only a matter of time before someone is if this trend continues.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 10, 2011, 16:41:00
But those reviewing/planning need to realise that these events are happening more frequently, and like it or not, every time this happens, draws closer the time when the travelling public will take it into their own to alight from their stuck trains. This is evidenced by recent events....

So, the powers that be need to start planning for these consequences. Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

The point some are making about this event making the case for a guard, etc is not made. This train had a guard, who was reportedly making very regular announcements. He failed to prevent these people getting off. He then reportedly bolted those doors shut, which, if he'd done many more, would likely have started a riot/violence/upset. And probably broke H&S rules? Otherwise, why allow doors to be opened in an emergency?

Unless things are changed, people will start alighting, mark my words....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: inspector_blakey on June 10, 2011, 16:53:30
Unless things are changed, people will start alighting, mark my words....

Erm, they already have...


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 10, 2011, 16:55:19
5 hours on train is unacceptable, regardless of event; if after 2 hours-ish, no repair or resumption is likely, evacuations need to be put in hand. If there's no power either, then, as modern trains have sealed windows/doors, a way of providing fresh air is also needed - maybe controlled removal of window(s) - two per coach. Yes, all this will cost money. The industry needs to get a grip and start by securing line-side cabinets. Last night one was broken into. If they hadn't been able to gain access....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: MrC on June 10, 2011, 16:55:53
Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

Probably a good idea but how many people would you need to evacuate say 50 trains over an area from Clapham Jcn to Basingstoke? And how long will it take? All the while trying to fire-fight operational problems elsewhere. That's the scale of yesterday's incident. Also while you're evacuating you're probably not going to be fixing the root cause because you've got people wandering all over the railway, so you're in danger of the problem running over into the following peak period.

And how many people will get injured during the evac, especially if it's at night, or icy, or wet, etc.

There's really no easy answer to this. As you say these sorts of problems are going to get worse as the railway wasn't designed to prevent this sort of opportunistic theft/vandalism. And if, as it looks likely, organised crime starts getting involved then we can look forward to this happening on a regular basis. The only real 'cure' is to make metal theft non-profitable but that's not going to be easy.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on June 10, 2011, 16:57:48
So, the powers that be need to start planning for these consequences. Like TOCS having an evacuation team available to reach any part of their network within, say, 90 minutes. That may need more than one team then. Because it won't be long before joe public say they've had enough after 2 hours and alight.

Good idea - but it needn't be TOC specific. Base them at strategic geographic points and the nearest one to an incident goes regardless of which company it is.  Could be a department of BTP for example. Or set up along the lines of the Highways Agency who have flying squads to assist with Motorway incidents.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Brucey on June 10, 2011, 18:10:38
This story was covered on Meridian Tonight as a main story.  I was disappointed to see no mention of the safety implication of alighting a train.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 10, 2011, 19:40:08
There's really no easy answer to this. As you say these sorts of problems are going to get worse as the railway wasn't designed to prevent this sort of opportunistic theft/vandalism. And if, as it looks likely, organised crime starts getting involved then we can look forward to this happening on a regular basis. The only real 'cure' is to make metal theft non-profitable but that's not going to be easy.

It is not a case of getting worse there has been a war of attrition between Network Rail Electrification Engineers and BTP against these thieves for at least 2 years, the level of theft subsided about a year ago for a few months because the price of copper dropped. 

The thieves are getting more and more stupid actually cutting live 33,000 volt cable, I do not know the details of what was attacked yesterday it must have been a major item attacked or an item with something else that had already failed, normally the system can deal with one failure.

The idea of having a team of "storm troopers" ready to deploy in these events is great except the fair paying passenger would not welcome the cost of having them sitting around 99.9% of the time.   What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Lee on June 10, 2011, 21:10:11
From Yahoo: (http://uk.travel.yahoo.com/p-promo-3361312)

Quote from: Yahoo
South West Trains chaos: a passenger's story

Passengers were last night trapped on a train outside Woking station for four and a half hours. One commuter tells us what happened when things went wrong...

By Lucy Maxwell

Normally my train journey home takes 25 minutes and comes with the usual commuting etiquette ^ avoid talking or making eye contact with people, tut when someone's arm digs into your ribs, sigh when that loud City man yells into his phone etc. But last night's four-and-a-half-hour delay on South West Trains showed a different side of the daily grind.
 
The conditions weren't great for much of the time: no power (we'll come to the reason for that later) meant no air conditioning; some toilets wouldn't open and the state of the ones that did was just revolting; no water or refreshments were on offer; it was hot, uncomfortable and just plain boring ^ there are only so many times you can read the Evening Standard cover to cover before you want to rip the thing to shreds.
 
But despite all the inconvenience, lots of people made the best of a bad situation.
 
Many travellers were on their way down to Portsmouth to head over to the Isle of Wight Festival. Suitably equipped with a vast alcohol supply and speakers, one carriage on our train became a big party, with people literally dancing and singing in the aisle. The festival-goers were generous with their supplies too, readily handing around drinks to the regular commuters. They knew they weren't going to make their ferry, so decided to start their festival anyway.

In my slightly less active carriage, people were striking up conversations with each other, sharing whatever drinks and food they had with everyone and generally being very patient with the unfolding situation.
 
Of course it wasn't all a big tea party ^ at one point the guard put out a call for any medical professionals on board to attend to a woman (she was a diabetic who didn't have insulin with her). The intensive care nurse sitting opposite me leapt into action and when she came back, got a round of applause. Turns out she wasn't needed as there were already three doctors on the scene. And when the guard asked if any of us had sweet food or drinks to give to the woman, a long stream of volunteers passed through.
 
The worst part was when some passengers decided to make a break for it, getting off the train and trying to walk along to the nearest station, meaning the electricity supply to the tracks and train had to be turned off (hence no air con and limited lighting). This resulted in an even longer delay to the trains, as we had to wait till the people had been removed from the tracks before they could put the power back on.
 
Once wouldn't have been so bad, but when it happened a second time, you could sense the frustration mounting. If the escapees had stayed on the train, we all would have got home sooner.
 
But everyone kept calm and carried on, having conversations with people they would barely even nod to on a regular commuting day. Let's face it, we're not talking about some great trauma here, it was just a very long train delay. But sometimes it's interesting to see how people become much more human when they're put in an uncomfortable situation. When we finally got moving again on the last stretch, we all cheered and some people even hugged. Definitely NOT your average commute.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: MrC on June 10, 2011, 21:14:19
What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.

There's a risk that infrastructure damage can take out comms as well. That happened yesterday as CSR went down at the same time as the signalling, although I don't know if it was as a direct result of the damage or a secondary problem.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 10, 2011, 21:27:02
What needs to be done is to improve the communications systems to trains perhaps having a broadcast system that can be sent out from a control centre direct to the train and station PA systems thereby not relying on the train crew or station staff to pass on the information.

There's a risk that infrastructure damage can take out comms as well. That happened yesterday as CSR went down at the same time as the signalling, although I don't know if it was as a direct result of the damage or a secondary problem.
Possibly was, many of the CSR base stations are feed from the traction substations although the base stations have battery back up these are not as durable as they could be, the new GSMR system have a much more robust power supply system, also being a cellular radio system the loss of one mast hopefully will not have a drastic effect


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Trowres on June 10, 2011, 23:14:01
It is hardly the first time that there has been an extended period of unintentional imprisonment upon stranded trains. Did they not have a "review" on the previous occasions?

This forum has probably aired previously the lack of operational training for platform & other ancillary staff. With all the gee-whiz signalling installed these days, do we have a lack of Mk1 humans who were capable of handsignalling or clipping points?

Anyone know if they do a disaster plan when designing the latest signalling centres?



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: eightf48544 on June 10, 2011, 23:32:47
I'll try and find out from a good source about contingency plans.

There used to be phrase used when siganlling train past a signal at danger which went something like "proceed with caution be prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Basically driving on line of site. Unless the traction curent is off then if just the siganlling that's down surely the first train can be cautioned out of the effected area and subsequent trains cleared  when train in front moves all under caution. In four aspect areas you can often the train at the next siganl it would surely be possible to train drivers to move to next siganl say 5 minutes after the train in front moves.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Not from Brighton on June 11, 2011, 00:16:44
It's possible for Air Traffic Controllers to control aircraft over the phone when the link to the radar goes down. One operator dashes off to the radar cabin and describes the content of the radar screen over the phone to the Air Traffic Controller. The controller then directs the aircraft using voice instructions over the radio.
Is it not possible to deploy a collection of signallers armed with radios/mobile phones and some flags and do something similar. If it's good enough for air traffic, why not trains?
Surely it would be easier for the industry to rapidly drum up enough staff to operate a more manual signalling system than it would be to start evacuating trains?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on June 11, 2011, 00:39:07
there is one major difference, and only one reason why that is allowed to happen.......trains wont drop out of the sky.....

while i agree that being stuck on a train for 5 hours would be very anoying! as long as there is air and water then its just one of them ...... however it would appear that neither were provided by the operator, now the first thing air the 158 and 159 fleet have emergency windows which open with a key (ok i know they dont provide amazing ventilation when stationary but its something) .... why does new stock not have this? .... the second thing and i apreciate this one is a nightmare and that it would be impossible to ensure all trains had bottled water onboard and even if they did,it would involve date checking and somewhere to put it and most trains struggle getting passengers on these days... other option designated suppliers with vans dotted around.... but how do you get it to the train? and how much would it cost? in the days of buffets it wasnt an issue almost every train had one

it seems that we are getting to the point where livestock being transported via road now has more rules on comfort than we do on public transport? just look at the new class 378.... how long before we end up seeing stuff like this on the cotswolds services?



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 11, 2011, 06:17:08
I'll try and find out from a good source about contingency plans.

There used to be phrase used when siganlling train past a signal at danger which went something like "proceed with caution be prepared to stop short of any obstruction". Basically driving on line of site. Unless the traction curent is off then if just the siganlling that's down surely the first train can be cautioned out of the effected area and subsequent trains cleared  when train in front moves all under caution. In four aspect areas you can often the train at the next siganl it would surely be possible to train drivers to move to next siganl say 5 minutes after the train in front moves.

Agree entirely. Passing signals at danger is not to be undertaken lightly, but permission should be granted in extreme cases in order to allow passengers to alight from overcrowded services.
It would appear that in the recent incident, few if any, trains were allowed to do this.

This does not help in the case of electric trains if the traction current is off, but in this incident it was still on, at least initialy.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 11, 2011, 08:19:50
With all the gee-whiz signalling installed these days, do we have a lack of Mk1 humans who were capable of handsignalling or clipping points?

The straight answer is YES there is a lack of Mk1 humans to do this level of on the ground control.  McNulty recommends the railway industry go even further to reduce the level of staffing.
It's possible for Air Traffic Controllers to control aircraft over the phone when the link to the radar goes down. One operator dashes off to the radar cabin and describes the content of the radar screen over the phone to the Air Traffic Controller. The controller then directs the aircraft using voice instructions over the radio.
Is it not possible to deploy a collection of signallers armed with radios/mobile phones and some flags and do something similar. If it's good enough for air traffic, why not trains?
Surely it would be easier for the industry to rapidly drum up enough staff to operate a more manual signalling system than it would be to start evacuating trains?

Signalers can instruct drivers to pass a signal at Danger over CSR or SPT the problem with the lines out of Waterloo some of the busiest railway lines in the World is the number of trains involved, also if there was a major Traction Power supply failure there is no 750v dc on the con rail to move the trains with.

The railway system did what it was supposed to do it failed safe and yes people were inconvenienced, distressed etc but no one was serious injured or killed, do the railway need to do better in such incident yes it does was the Police handling OTT possibly yes how to deal with such an incident in the future is more, if not impossible, to answer


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 11, 2011, 10:47:47
Unfortunately, the public's patience with these elongated delays is starting to tire, witness this episode & the Kentish Town episode a week or so ago.

Doing nothing will not be an option for much longer. Every time the media report passengers abandoning trains happens, more people will think that is a way to go if / when they get caught up. And next time, they won't waot two hours either.

So planning needs starting now - the price of copper isn't going to come diwn much anytime soon. Instead of evacuation 'hit squads' I suggested earlier, squads of hand-signallers might be a better bet. It seems that signals fail more often than power (which was Kentish Town?) - and of course, vast tracks of rail aren't electrified anyway, so these squads would likely be more use everywhere.

I'm sure they could be multi-skilled too, so available for other technical jobs while awaiting call-outs.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on June 11, 2011, 11:42:56
Kentish Town was an electrical fault on a train that tripped out the OHLE causing many trains in the area to grind to a halt.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 11, 2011, 12:12:47
Kentish Town was an electrical fault on a train that tripped out the OHLE causing many trains in the area to grind to a halt.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/110526_St_Pancras_International.cfm
The route Kentish Town is on is part of the Thameslink which is undergoing major power supply upgrading compounded by the failure of a UKPNS (electricity supply company) 132/25kV transformer at Boreham Wood, it will be interesting to see if the way and the tight deadlines the Thameslink Program are having to work to is in part the cause of this failure.

Unfortunately, the public's patience with these elongated delays is starting to tire, witness this episode & the Kentish Town episode a week or so ago.

Doing nothing will not be an option for much longer. Every time the media report passengers abandoning trains happens, more people will think that is a way to go if / when they get caught up. And next time, they won't waot two hours either.

So planning needs starting now - the price of copper isn't going to come diwn much anytime soon. Instead of evacuation 'hit squads' I suggested earlier, squads of hand-signallers might be a better bet. It seems that signals fail more often than power (which was Kentish Town?) - and of course, vast tracks of rail aren't electrified anyway, so these squads would likely be more use everywhere.

I'm sure they could be multi-skilled too, so available for other technical jobs while awaiting call-outs.

Who is going to pay? add 5% onto the fairs to cover the cost of these staff.   I such a person you are alluding too, I would need to have competencies the ORR require to be current and in date at all times, these are kept in date by either using the skills and be assessed in the field or to attend retraining, I have had to let most of my competences (authority to switch HV, COSS, etc) lapse because my current day job does not permit the time to use them to the levels required, if I were given the time the projects I deliver would go up in cost which is funded by the tax payer, this would apply to many others and just not me.

How would these staff get to the affected areas

There is no simple solution and I and sure NR the TOC's and the ORR will be reviewing what has happened and do a lessons learned.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 11, 2011, 12:38:58
No, there is no simple solution, agreed.

But so far, no review has in my view gone far enough, and they need to start looking well outside traditional boxes, otherwise more & more passengers will evacuate themselves, until there's a disasterous accident.

There is more solutions than I suggest of course - but the hand-signallers hit-squads would be funded the same way as the BTP, I suggest, and included in future franchises


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: dviner on June 11, 2011, 16:02:49
There is more solutions than I suggest of course - but the hand-signallers hit-squads would be funded the same way as the BTP, I suggest, and included in future franchises

Hand-signaller Hit-squads would have to come under Network Rail's control, as they are the people who do the normal signalling.

It should also be remembered that it may not be just signals stuck on red/showing no lights, but also not being able to confirm how the points are set - so we'll also need people to hand wind and scotch & clamp the points, and the overhead on the controlling signaller to get these people to do their tasks and confirm that they are out of harms way.

Simple solutions can very rapidly become non-simple when railways are involved!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: smokey on June 11, 2011, 16:09:40
If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul. :D

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested. :o


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 11, 2011, 16:11:30
I never said any solution had to be simple.....

But the funding can go from the TOCs to NR easily enough. I believe they already pay NR for other things.....

If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul. :D

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested. :o

where? In this thread?

And, as with Kentish Town, it's not al;ways thieves causing the problem anyway...


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 11, 2011, 16:13:51
If Network Rail had a suggestion Scheme open to all, I'd put in an Idea that could catch some cable thieves before they could even unload their haul. :D

But I've already Posted something to that Effect & NO BODY seemed Interested. :o

Simple really if the idea is that good write to the Chairman and CEO of Network Rail ......... address is in the phone book


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: paul7575 on June 11, 2011, 17:56:02
It should also be remembered that it may not be just signals stuck on red/showing no lights, but also not being able to confirm how the points are set - so we'll also need people to hand wind and scotch & clamp the points, and the overhead on the controlling signaller to get these people to do their tasks and confirm that they are out of harms way.

The signalling on the East London Line, and currently being installed in the Thameslink core (Blackfriars to St Pancras inclusive) includes the new feature of Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA) aspects.  This uses a pair of flashing whites below the main signal (same hardware as calling on lights) to allow drivers to proceed when there are problems with train detection only - but not when there are problems with points detection. 

As you rightly imply - lack of knowledge about points and route setting appears to be a completely different kettle of fish to loss of train detection.

Paul


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 11, 2011, 21:00:53
Loss of train detection can be dealt with by a signaler issuing a proceed with caution because the worse case is a train will approach another from the rear, loss of point detection could result in a head on collision.

Above all there are some basic and fundamental Regulations that have been in existence since the early days of the railways come into play regarding train movements to protect LIFE the delays last week inconvenient yes but everyone walked away unhurt


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: MrC on June 11, 2011, 23:08:03
The signalling on the East London Line, and currently being installed in the Thameslink core (Blackfriars to St Pancras inclusive) includes the new feature of Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA) aspects.  This uses a pair of flashing whites below the main signal (same hardware as calling on lights) to allow drivers to proceed when there are problems with train detection only - but not when there are problems with points detection. 

TBH I can't see that POSA aspects would have helped in the recent problems. If someone damages signalling and/or power cables you lose control of the POSA aspects as well.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 12, 2011, 10:54:54
Maybe those regulations need looking at?

Otherwise you'll get people frying themselves.....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 12, 2011, 11:09:46
Loss of train detection can be dealt with by a signaler issuing a proceed with caution because the worse case is a train will approach another from the rear, loss of point detection could result in a head on collision.

Above all there are some basic and fundamental Regulations that have been in existence since the early days of the railways come into play regarding train movements to protect LIFE the delays last week inconvenient yes but everyone walked away unhurt

Had this occurred in warmer weather I would consider loss of life from heat stress or heart failure to be likely for an unfortunate minority.
Although prolonged delays have occured in the past, the situation is far worse with modern trains. On older trains almost everyone got a seat, the windows opened, and it was not unknown for the doors to be opened also in case of prolonged delay in hot weather.

To be stuck for 4 hours seated on an old train was only inconvienient. Smokers could smoke, windows could be opened, toilets were provided and still worked, battery lighting was provided and worked for several hours

To be stuck for 4 hours standing on a modern crush loaded train, in the dark, in sweltering heat is potentialy dangerous.
The battery lighting seldom works, the toilets dont work, windows cant be opened, and of course new trains on suburban route are optimised for standing.
Railway police and some railway staff are there not to help but threaten arrest of anyone breaking windows, opening doors, smoking or trying to escape.
I recently met someone caught up in the recent chaos. They spoke very badly indeed of the police at Woking, they said that many police were present with the intention of arresting any escapees for trespass.
It was said that the only way the escapees avoided arrest was by outnumbering the police and charging the police line en-masse in order to escape.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: paul7575 on June 12, 2011, 11:47:36
The signalling on the East London Line, and currently being installed in the Thameslink core (Blackfriars to St Pancras inclusive) includes the new feature of Proceed on Sight Authorisation (POSA) aspects.  This uses a pair of flashing whites below the main signal (same hardware as calling on lights) to allow drivers to proceed when there are problems with train detection only - but not when there are problems with points detection. 

TBH I can't see that POSA aspects would have helped in the recent problems. If someone damages signalling and/or power cables you lose control of the POSA aspects as well.

Certainly - I was simply pointing out that there is a solution for loss of train detection only - resulting in red signals - one of the reasons for a scenarios dviner had just mentioned.

Paul


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 20, 2011, 09:20:23
Unconfirmed reports suggest that this incident was NOT caused by the theft or attempted theft of cables as was initialy suggested.
I heard that it was due to the failure of a cable in a substation near Farnborough.
It was a return traction current cable, the failure of which led to excessive voltages between true earth and the nominaly earthed running rails, which caused widespread signalling problems.

I am not able to give a source for this.
Can anyone confirm or deny ?

P.S. if true, it shows the unwisdom of touching ANY rail on an electric railway. I suspect that running rails would have been at a dangerous voltage .


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2011, 09:23:39
Maybe those regulations need looking at?

Otherwise you'll get people frying themselves.....

Was it not far worse back in day - not that long ago - when there were no locked doors preventing people from hopping down onto the tracks?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on June 20, 2011, 09:37:32
Yet no one did it - because communications to passengers wasa better & there were very very few 3+ hour delays. Health & Safety rules were minimal (comparted to today) too....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 20, 2011, 20:27:39
Unconfirmed reports suggest that this incident was NOT caused by the theft or attempted theft of cables as was initialy suggested.
I heard that it was due to the failure of a cable in a substation near Farnborough.
It was a return traction current cable, the failure of which led to excessive voltages between true earth and the nominaly earthed running rails, which caused widespread signalling problems.

I am not able to give a source for this.
Can anyone confirm or deny ?

P.S. if true, it shows the unwisdom of touching ANY rail on an electric railway. I suspect that running rails would have been at a dangerous voltage .

I can assure that the information given to you is not wholly correct.  It was not a cable failure as such it was an attempted theft one of the cables attacked was a high voltage cable.  The damage caused a wide spread high voltage system failure, signaling power supplies are derived from the high voltage traction system.  This incident still subject to a Police investigation therefore only limited details.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on June 21, 2011, 06:33:36
Thanks for the correction, it was an unsubstantiated report from someone working on the repairs, though perhaps not a technical person.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Not from Brighton on June 21, 2011, 19:53:45
How much effort goes into making these systems resilient to these sorts of failures? They do seem to be quite vulnerable to the actions of a few individuals. There was a case in the west midlands a few years ago where somebody with a grudge and a bit of knowledge was able to inflict numerous crippling delays over a long campaign of sabotage and there was little the railway could do about it. Would it be very expensive to have backups, redundancy etc? Who would pay?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on June 21, 2011, 21:25:11
How much effort goes into making these systems resilient to these sorts of failures? They do seem to be quite vulnerable to the actions of a few individuals. There was a case in the west midlands a few years ago where somebody with a grudge and a bit of knowledge was able to inflict numerous crippling delays over a long campaign of sabotage and there was little the railway could do about it. Would it be very expensive to have backups, redundancy etc? Who would pay?

There is redundancy built in, electrification works on a N - 1 that is we can lose one piece of equipment of supply without having an impact on normal operation, although one of the items attacked here is not N - 1 as it is over 50 years old and when installed the failure of it was view differently, this type of equipment is high on the list to be renewed to an N - 1 but does take time and money

A lot of effort goes into protecting modern equipment and systems by overt and covert methods, it is very difficult to protect a network as large as the railway system from deliberate attack


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on July 23, 2011, 18:05:07
Revisiting this thread as the case has come to Court.  Three men had broken into the remote track-side substation between Penge West and Sydenham to steal the copper strips at 5.30 one morning last December, but in the raid one of the three a 28 year old male was electrocuted and one was seriously burned; the 2 surviving men have admitted burglary and a charge of criminal damage, recklessly endangering life. 1 has also pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice.http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23972252-railway-cable-thieves-fled-as-accomplice-was-electrocuted.do (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23972252-railway-cable-thieves-fled-as-accomplice-was-electrocuted.do)

Hopefully they will get a long sentence and BTP make the most of this case to publicise the dangers of stealing copper from electrical substations


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: tramway on July 25, 2011, 00:19:14
Do you only qualify for a 'Darwin' if you don't already have progeny?

I suspect that idiot already has several who will carry the 'metal theft' gene.  :(


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on July 25, 2011, 13:51:04
Very little sympathy for the victim or those that witnessed his death.

I also have no sympathy for the thief, got what he deserved.
As for those that witnessed it, if they were also engaged in the theft, then I have no sympathy for them either.

I would however have sympathy for any inocent persons who saw it, and for those clearing up.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: RichardB on August 17, 2011, 11:51:59
Self explanatory......I've already signed.


Morning All,

If you could find time to sign this petition it could help reduce the thousands of delay minutes a year, caused by people stealing our cable and putting signalling systems out of order. (most recently 518 delay minutes were caused and 8 trains cancelled by one theft on Monday).

To sign just follow this link  http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/406

Please feel free to pass it on.

Thanks for your help

Mike

Mike Franklin
Community Rail Executive
Network Rail.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on August 17, 2011, 11:55:26
signed - makes sense


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: anthony215 on August 17, 2011, 12:14:32
Signed this after hearing about it on WNXX.

This is actually a good idea


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 17, 2011, 18:32:39
Signed it too, having dealt with an incident where a thief electrocuted himself and having to resolve almost on a daily bases the problems caused by metal thieves, I just hope the Cameroons have the nerve to pass the legislation


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on August 17, 2011, 18:56:06
done


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: rogerw on August 17, 2011, 19:39:53
Done.  This is an obvious solution.  Might help the taxman too


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: trainbuff on August 17, 2011, 19:42:52
Signed. No-brainer really!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 18, 2011, 22:39:06
Signed.  :-X

And, from the BTP website, a press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/BROTHERS-JAILED-AFTER-COPPER-CABLE-BURGLARY-SAW-MAN-ELECTROCUTED-BROMLEY-SOUTH-LONDON-15dc.aspx) about (I think) the particular case Electric train mentioned:

Quote
BROTHERS JAILED AFTER COPPER CABLE BURGLARY SAW MAN ELECTROCUTED ^ BROMLEY, SOUTH LONDON

Two brothers from south London have been jailed after an ill-fated copper cable theft from the railway in the Penge area saw a man fatally electrocuted.

Just three hours after the death of James Smith (28), from Catford, copper stolen during Jason and John Tusting^s raid was sold to a scrap dealer in Peckham.

Following a British Transport Police (BTP) investigation, Jason Tusting (23), of Brockley Mews, Honor Oak, and John Tusting (26), of Burnt Ash Hill, Lee, were sentenced at Blackfriars Crown Court on Friday, 12 August.

Jason Tusting had earlier pleaded guilty to burglary, criminal damage recklessly endangering life and perverting the course of justice and was jailed for four years and eight months.

John Tusting pleaded guilty to burglary and criminal damage recklessly endangering life and was jailed for four years.

Just before 5.30am on Saturday, 4 December 2010, Jason Tusting, John Tusting and James Smith, broke into a substation in the Penge area before stealing a number of copper strips.

However, the burglary went disastrously wrong, with James Smith fatally electrocuted.

At 5.32am, an anonymous man ^ Jason Tusting ^ dialled 999 and told the London Ambulance Service and police that he was at Sydenham rail station and had spotted a man who had been electrocuted trackside.

Officers attended the station and called Jason Tusting, who agreed to attend and assist police. He arrived at the station around 6.45am before giving officers false information about where the incident had happened and then leaving the station.

Just under two hours later, James Smith^s body was discovered outside the substation following a number of trackside searches. His body appeared to have been moved from inside. DNA traces on his lips indicated Jason Tusting had attempted to revive him before leaving the scene with his brother John, who received a massive electrical burn to one of his arms.

His mobile phone was taken, while the key to his silver Vauxhall Astra car was also missing. Neither the car nor phone have been found.

Cable inside the substation was damaged, and some copper strips had been stolen. Officers later discovered the strips, covered in Jason Tusting^s fingerprints, had been sold at a Peckham scrap metal yard around 8.30am that morning.

Officers subsequently spoke to one of Jason Tusting^s relatives, who agreed to bring him to Lewisham police station, where he was arrested.

It was established that John Tusting had been admitted to hospital with serious burns and he was also later arrested.

Detective Sergeant Pete Thrush, of British Transport Police, said: "While Jason and John Tusting have now been sentenced for what they did, James Smith paid the highest price for this incident, with his life. His death serves as a sad and clear reminder of the dangers posed by accessing prohibited parts of the rail network."

In a statement issued through British Transport Police, Catherine Payne, James Smith^s mother, said: "We remain inconsolable by the loss of James and are still trying to come to terms with what happened. We want to thank everyone for the help and support they have given us throughout this difficult time. James was much loved by his family and many friends."

Dave Ward, Network Rail's route managing director for Kent, said: "Cable theft is a major issue on the railway, costing millions of pounds a year and causing unnecessary delay and disruption to passengers. Unfortunately someone has paid the ultimate price and two other people are now in jail for their crimes. This should act as a stark warning to anyone tempted to trespass on the railway or steal metal to think again."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: autotank on August 19, 2011, 09:28:25
Signed - no brainer and very poor that Govt haven't done anything already!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 19, 2011, 17:20:09
Signed.  :-X

And, from the BTP website, a press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/BROTHERS-JAILED-AFTER-COPPER-CABLE-BURGLARY-SAW-MAN-ELECTROCUTED-BROMLEY-SOUTH-LONDON-15dc.aspx) about (I think) the particular case Electric train mentioned:

Quote
BROTHERS JAILED AFTER COPPER CABLE BURGLARY SAW MAN ELECTROCUTED ^ BROMLEY, SOUTH LONDON

Two brothers from south London have been jailed after an ill-fated copper cable theft from the railway in the Penge area saw a man fatally electrocuted.

Just three hours after the death of James Smith (28), from Catford, copper stolen during Jason and John Tusting^s raid was sold to a scrap dealer in Peckham.

Following a British Transport Police (BTP) investigation, Jason Tusting (23), of Brockley Mews, Honor Oak, and John Tusting (26), of Burnt Ash Hill, Lee, were sentenced at Blackfriars Crown Court on Friday, 12 August.

Jason Tusting had earlier pleaded guilty to burglary, criminal damage recklessly endangering life and perverting the course of justice and was jailed for four years and eight months.

John Tusting pleaded guilty to burglary and criminal damage recklessly endangering life and was jailed for four years.

Just before 5.30am on Saturday, 4 December 2010, Jason Tusting, John Tusting and James Smith, broke into a substation in the Penge area before stealing a number of copper strips.

However, the burglary went disastrously wrong, with James Smith fatally electrocuted.

At 5.32am, an anonymous man ^ Jason Tusting ^ dialled 999 and told the London Ambulance Service and police that he was at Sydenham rail station and had spotted a man who had been electrocuted trackside.

Officers attended the station and called Jason Tusting, who agreed to attend and assist police. He arrived at the station around 6.45am before giving officers false information about where the incident had happened and then leaving the station.

Just under two hours later, James Smith^s body was discovered outside the substation following a number of trackside searches. His body appeared to have been moved from inside. DNA traces on his lips indicated Jason Tusting had attempted to revive him before leaving the scene with his brother John, who received a massive electrical burn to one of his arms.

His mobile phone was taken, while the key to his silver Vauxhall Astra car was also missing. Neither the car nor phone have been found.

Cable inside the substation was damaged, and some copper strips had been stolen. Officers later discovered the strips, covered in Jason Tusting^s fingerprints, had been sold at a Peckham scrap metal yard around 8.30am that morning.

Officers subsequently spoke to one of Jason Tusting^s relatives, who agreed to bring him to Lewisham police station, where he was arrested.

It was established that John Tusting had been admitted to hospital with serious burns and he was also later arrested.

Detective Sergeant Pete Thrush, of British Transport Police, said: "While Jason and John Tusting have now been sentenced for what they did, James Smith paid the highest price for this incident, with his life. His death serves as a sad and clear reminder of the dangers posed by accessing prohibited parts of the rail network."

In a statement issued through British Transport Police, Catherine Payne, James Smith^s mother, said: "We remain inconsolable by the loss of James and are still trying to come to terms with what happened. We want to thank everyone for the help and support they have given us throughout this difficult time. James was much loved by his family and many friends."

Dave Ward, Network Rail's route managing director for Kent, said: "Cable theft is a major issue on the railway, costing millions of pounds a year and causing unnecessary delay and disruption to passengers. Unfortunately someone has paid the ultimate price and two other people are now in jail for their crimes. This should act as a stark warning to anyone tempted to trespass on the railway or steal metal to think again."
This was the incident at a site I was project engineer for, the BTP CID and SOCO team need praising for the diligent work they put in, BTP's CID is small compared to civil police and the SOCO even smaller


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ChrisB on August 19, 2011, 17:36:28
Not a difficult case though, with the deceased very obviously burned...


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 19, 2011, 18:46:03
Nevertheless, there was still the need for painstaking evidence to be gathered, to the satisfaction of the court, that the body had been moved, and that someone (identifiable) had attempted to revive the deceased - to prove the charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 19, 2011, 19:22:47
Not a difficult case though, with the deceased very obviously burned...
The deceased was not that badly burnt just entry exit burns on lower part of legs an hands, one of those gaoled had facial and upper body burns.  There was a lot of work done by BTP CID and SOCO matching DNA, fingerprints, and other physical evidence that allowed items that were recovered to be place from the scene of the crime


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Bob_Blakey on August 20, 2011, 08:11:00
Also signed - as an employee of a telecommunications company I have at least two good reasons for supporting this initiative.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on August 21, 2011, 00:45:02
Sorry to be pedantic - but it is something that always annoys me.  Why does the BTP report say "fatally electrocuted"?  It is tortology.  If you are electrocuted you are dead.  You can have an electric shock and survive - you cannot survive an electrocution.  That said I support the petition. 


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on August 21, 2011, 00:51:55
Can I be pedantic too?

It's a tautology.  ;) ;D


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on August 21, 2011, 00:52:36
I spellchecked that too because it didnt look right!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 21, 2011, 08:07:57
An electric shock can be fatal but it is not necessarily electrocution; a victim can die from the resultant burns or the physical shock.  Anywho the villain that perished in the incident in London did die of electrocution current passing through the heart and other vital organs; it only take about 15mA to cause the heart the fibrillate


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on September 12, 2011, 13:54:32
Not directly rail related, but police raiding 50 sites is surely evidence that they are taking this problem seriously.

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/Police-raids-scrap-metal-dealers/story-13313900-detail/story.html



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: phile on September 12, 2011, 17:16:49
Yes, the Police do seem to be taking the problem seriously but then they go to Court and much to the frustration of the police and the general public those in the Dock get away with a lenient sentence and what is more, not a deterrent to others.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on September 13, 2011, 12:02:13
Here is the follow up story.

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/arrested-Bath-scrap-metal-raids/story-13313900-detail/story.html

I sold my old cast iron downpipes to Douglas and Tucker. The only illegality about that transaction was my parking whilst unloading the metal.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 28, 2011, 20:02:52
From the Tewkesbury Admag (http://www.tewkesburyadmag.co.uk/news/evesham/9327776.Cable_thefts_are_really_out_of_line/):

Quote
Evesham rail passengers suffered major delays this week after thieves stole more than 100 metres of copper cabling over two consecutive nights.

About 70 metres of the signalling cable was cut and stolen on Monday evening close to Common Road in Evesham. A search also discovered around 70 yards had been cut but left at the scene. On the following evening, about 50 metres of cable was taken from track near Kings Road in Evesham at about 7.12pm.

The thefts caused delays for early morning rail passengers on both Tuesday and yesterday morning and come shortly after a major project to improve the service was completed.

The manager of Evesham Station, Teresa Ceesay, said: ^People are suffering; they cannot get to their jobs or meetings.^

Patrick Hallgate, Network Rail^s route managing director said: ^Both incidents have resulted in nearly 1,200 minutes of delay to rail services, severely disrupting passengers.

^This is a serious crime with serious consequences and we are taking actions with the transport police to tackle this crime.^

Detective Sergeant Jon Rawson of the British Transport Police said: ^What thieves don^t realise is that they are working on live cable, carrying up to 25,000 volts.

^They are putting their lives at serious risk.^


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 08, 2011, 18:22:30
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15634949):

Quote
There are now as many as eight cases of attempted cable theft from the railways a day, operator Network Rail has said.

Dyan Crowther, the body's operations director, said the crime was spreading across the UK and had cost the firm more than ^40m over the past two years. Most cases were "random", she told MPs, and there was evidence thieves were impersonating engineering staff.

A senior police officer said it was seen as a "low risk, high return" crime and penalties were not tough enough.

Ministers have said they are looking at new measures to combat the problem and are being urged to give police greater powers and to tighten regulation of scrap metal dealers.

Ms Crowther told the Transport Select Committee that the problem of cable theft had first surfaced in the north-east of England about two years ago and had "migrated" steadily across the country. While many cases took place at night, thefts were now regularly happening in peak time, she told MPs, and while there were "hotspots" there was no real pattern to their occurrence.

"It is quite difficult to predict and makes a response very difficult," she said.

There were now between six and eight attempted thefts a day, she said, which had cost Network Rail ^43m over the past two years in terms of compensation paid to train firms and repair costs.

"It is a risk. It is a risk to our network daily and we are working very hard to mitigate those risks."

In the most high-profile case yet, in June cable thieves disabled the signalling system near Woking in Surrey, causing massive disruption for around 80,000 passengers in the evening rush hour.

Ms Crowther said drivers were being briefed to report "suspicious activity" on the network amid evidence that thieves were pretending to be engineering staff in order to gain access to the railway.

Measures being used to combat cable theft, she told MPs, included increased use of surveillance, reinforcing railway sleepers and spraying tracks with traceable liquid to deter thieves.

Also giving evidence, the British Transport Police said it had 110 officers working full time on the problem as it was aware it was having a "very significant" effect on communities and businesses.

"We take it very, very seriously indeed. It fills up much of our waking time," Paul Crowther, the force's deputy director told the MPs.

There was a "clear correlation" between price of copper on commodity markets and rates of crime, he told MPs, suggesting cable theft was largely the work of "professional criminals".

"All routes lead us back to the market," he said. "It is a very market-driven crime. It is almost as if the criminals are looking at the market themselves."

Legislation for dealing with the crime, dating back to 1964, was "outdated" and needed redrafting. Those selling scrap metal to dealers did not have to provide proof of their identity and, unless this was tightened, it would be "almost impossible" to charge someone if the material was obtained illegally.

"It really is Steptoe and Son legislation which has not kept pace with current methods. The traceability of the individual is compromised which means the traceability of the material is compromised and the whole incidence of cash in the process creates situations where corrupt practices can take place."

While the maximum fine available under current law was ^1,000, those committing the crimes could make thousands of pounds, he said, while sentences awarded often "did not reflect the impact".

Labour have urged ministers to toughen regulation by licensing scrap metal dealers, making it easier to close down rogue operators and to examine a ban on cash transactions.

Ian Hetherington, head of the British Metals Recycling Association, said there was a problem with the number of illegal scrap dealers in the UK which could be as many as 900. The industry accepted regulations needed to be updated, he added, but this would make no difference unless they were properly enforced and there needed to be a uniform approach by the police.

"Frankly if existing law cannot be enforced, new law will not be enforced any better," he said. "I would not stand in the way of local policing but it does produce a proliferation of well-meaning and relatively short-lived policing initiatives. Our members are subject to a different set of criteria set out by the police in Manchester and Lancashire as they are in Kent or in Norfolk. It is a very disjointed picture in terms of policing."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 22, 2011, 22:36:44
From the British Transport Police press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/MEN-CAUGHT-TRYING-TO-STEAL-RAILWAY-CABLE-JAILED-FOR-15-MONTHS-17a5.aspx):

Quote
MEN CAUGHT TRYING TO STEAL RAILWAY CABLE JAILED FOR 15 MONTHS

Three men who were trying to steal railway cable near to the rail line in Pinner have each been jailed for 15 months after British Transport Police (BTP) officers in plain clothes caught the men returning to a spot where cable had been cut previously.

Iulian Baston (23) of Ilford Lane, Ilford, Constantin Levarda (25) of Brent Park Road, Brent Cross and Ioan Fartaes (34) of Morley Avenue, Wood Green, were sentenced at Harrow Crown Court on Wednesday 16 November after being found guilty of going equipped to steal at a trial in October.

BTP received a report from railway contractors that lengths of railway cable had been cut and hidden in undergrowth near to the line-side in Pinner on the morning of Wednesday 12 January.

Officers in plain clothes decided to observe the location that night in plain clothes and saw the three men approach at about 10pm. The men could provide no adequate explanation before a search of them and their vehicle found a hacksaw a pair of metal cutters and pairs of heavy-duty gloves.

BTP Sergeant Mike Hender, investigating, said: ^We arrested the men after they couldn^t provide us with a satisfactory explanation of what they were doing near to the rail line at that time of night. They also couldn^t explain why we found a hacksaw and cutting tools in their car - evidence which sealed their convictions. Crime which involves the theft or attempted theft of railway cable attracts strong penalties and I hope the jail sentences handed to these three men will act as a deterrent to others.^

His Honour Judge Holt, describing the impact of cable theft on Britain as he sentenced the men, said: ^It gnaws away at the economic wellbeing of this country. It has only just been widely publicised that 1,969 trains were cancelled in the last 6 months alone as a result of cable theft. Thousands of passengers are inconvenienced by this. They are late for work and miss hospital appointments.

^In my view the only sentence that I can pass is one of immediate custody to deter others.^



Edit note: Images now removed due to expiry of copyright permission. CfN


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 22, 2011, 23:41:09
From Elmbridge Today (http://www.elmbridgetoday.co.uk/News/South-West-Trains-apology-disruption-0000001344.aspx):

Quote
South West Trains apologises to those affected by disruption

South West Trains has apologised for any inconvenience that may have been caused following emergency engineering works on the approach to London Waterloo yesterday (Monday).

Network Rail identified a defect with a set of points, which had to be repaired before trains could run over them safely.

As a result, platforms one to four at Waterloo were closed and South West Trains ran a reduced service to and from the station throughout the day.

This saw trains between Hampton Court and Waterloo only running between Hampton Court and Surbiton.

Meanwhile, trains on the Guildford via Cobham service had to call at Berrylands, New Malden and Raynes Park in addition to their usual stops, which include Cobham & Stoke D^Abernon, Oxshott, Claygate and Hinchley Wood.

Richard O^Brien, Network Rail^s route managing director for Wessex, confirmed that the points defect was resolved by 4pm yesterday afternoon.

South West Trains returned to a normal timetable from the start of service today (Tuesday).

Jake Kelly, the company^s customer service director, thanked passengers for their patience and apologised for any inconvenience that may have been caused following the emergency engineering works.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: paul7575 on November 22, 2011, 23:59:10
Quote

Network Rail identified a defect with a set of points, which had to be repaired before trains could run over them safely.


I suppose this must be a real improvement on the old system, where their maintenence attempts actually made things worse, which allowed a couple of trains to derail just outside the station.   ::)

Quote
In both instances, recent maintenance activity had exacerbated latent defects which had not
been identified by previous routine inspection.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/071218_R442007_Waterloo.pdf

Paul


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on November 23, 2011, 09:31:38
Well that certainly sounds like an effective sentance.
They cant do it again whilst inside, and hopefully wont when released.
MIGHT deter others.
I suspect though that prison sentances are not the norm for such thefts, this case may be in the news because of unusual severity of the punishment.

If there was a significant risk of significant prison time then I doubt that metal theft would be such a popular crime.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: 6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01 on November 23, 2011, 11:17:21
In addition after the sentence they should arrive home to find all cables and pipes in the house have been removed


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: EBrown on November 23, 2011, 13:18:05
A bit more reading from Rail News (http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2011/11/09-network-rail-insiders-blamed-for.html)
Quote
SOME Network Rail staff and contractors are cable thieves, according to a senior manager.

The problem of metal thefts is becoming worse as the value of some metals, particularly copper, continues to rise on world markets, and there are increasingly strident calls for the scrap metal trade to be licensed and regulated.

The revelation about the involvement of some Network Rail insiders came from operational services directory Dyan Crowther, when she was giving evidence to the House of Commons transport committee.

She told the hearing that the staff and contractors working on projects inevitably had inside knowledge about where and when a signalling scheme was taking place.

She said: "There is evidence that there is inside knowledge. There have been arrests and prosecutions of Network Rail staff who have been involved in cable theft."

"It's almost like providing sweets in a sweet shop," she added.

With the incidence of thefts and resulting rail disruption getting worse, British Transport Police have described the present system of controlling the scrap metal trade as dating from the days of Steptoe and Son.

BTP deputy chief constable Paul Crowther told the committee that legislation had not kept pace with modern conditions.

Describing railway cable theft as a 'low-risk, high-return activity', the deputy chief constable said: "When you go to scrap metal dealers you give your name and address and there are no means of knowing if the information is true. We have a risk and reward balance which is in favour of the criminal."

Virgin Trains is the latest industry member to campaign for tighter controls on the handling of scrap metals, after its services have been disrupted on numerous occasions by thefts of equipment on the West Coast Main Line.

VT's chief operating officer Chris Gibb was joined at Coventry station on Monday this week by representatives of British Transport Police, London Midland and the security company SmartWater to distribute information about the problem, and what it is being done to combat it.

The West Midlands is one of the country's hot-spots for cable thefts, and Mr Gibb said: "Cable theft continues to be an escalating threat to Virgin Trains^ customers and the economy. In 2010/11 there were 6,000 hours of train delay related to more than 3,000 crimes, and British Transport Police made more than 900 arrests. The trend so far this year is worse, despite a 20 per cent drop in the price of copper. On a single day recently Virgin Trains experienced 60 hours of delay.

^The cost to the railways alone reaches around ^19 million a year to replace lost cable and to compensate passenger and freight operators for the delays caused, while the wider impact on lost business and productivity accounts for another ^19 million.

^But cable theft is not a victimless crime. Delayed customers are people with lives to lead ^ jobs to get to, family to see and hospital appointments to make. The cable thieves are disrupting people's lives."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Tim on November 23, 2011, 17:09:06
Quote
Measures being used to combat cable theft, she told MPs, included i[...] reinforcing railway sleepers

How does that work then?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 11, 2011, 20:57:13
From the Oxford Mail (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/9412584.Bid_to_change_law_to_block_scrap_metal_thefts/):

Quote
The president of an Oxfordshire rail campaign group is aiming to curb the surge in scrap metal thefts by getting the law changed.

Lord Faulkner, who heads the Cotswold Line Promotion Group, wants to make cash transactions for scrap metal illegal.

He has tabled a Private Member^s Bill and a series of amendments in the House of Lords to try to secure a ban.

Metal theft has surged in recent years due to record prices for copper and other metals, combined with a boom in demand in China, India and other Asian countries.

Thefts of copper signal cables have disrupted train services on the Cotswold Line between Oxford and Worcester several times in recent weeks.

Thieves have also struck at other public services and buildings around Oxfordshire in the past year.

Telephone and internet users in Eynsham and Chinnor were cut off this summer when cables were stolen, lead worth ^100,000 was stripped from the roof of St Mary^s Church in Warkworth, near Banbury, in August, while schools, churches and council offices were targeted by lead thieves in Abingdon in September.

While the value of the metal stolen may be small, the costs of disruption and repairs can be huge.

The rail industry estimates cable thefts over the past three years have caused 16,000 hours of delays to trains and cost ^43m, while the Association of Chief Police Officers says metal thefts cost the UK ^770m a year.

Announcing his proposed amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, Lord Faulkner told the House of Lords: ^The move to cashless transactions (for scrap) is seen by all the interested parties as an essential step in the process of getting this business under some sort of control.^

As well as banning cash deals for scrap, the peer wants sentencing guidance revised, so courts take into account the cost of disruption and repairs caused by scrap thieves, not just the value of the metal they take.

Scrap merchant Jonathan Smith, of AV Smith and Son, of Frogs Island, off Old Didcot Road, Wallingford, said: ^I think cashless transactions would help cut down on the problem of metal thefts. I think it would be a good idea.

^I would like the trade to be as clean as possible.^

He added: ^I would love to stop the thieves. It^s not just churches and businesses being raided, ^3,500 of metal was stolen from our yard a year ago by someone who came in across the fields.

^But you also need to do something about people who are buying the metal without any checks. I always ask for photograph identification and take details of people^s vehicles, and record every delivery coming into the yard, so everything I buy is there in black and white.^

Oxford East MP Andrew Smith said: ^Metal theft is a huge problem, hitting householders, local businesses and churches.

^The bill looks a good idea. I would just want assurances it won^t hit the legitimate recycling industry.^

An online petition calling for an end to cash transactions for scrap has attracted more than 44,000 signatures since August. See epetitions.
direct.gov.uk/petitions/406


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 02, 2012, 22:29:29
As we seemed to have accumulated some ten different topics, on two different boards, all on the subject of 'metal theft', I've now merged them all here - in the interests of continuity and completeness, as always!

Chris.  :)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 02, 2012, 22:33:57
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16382806):

Quote
Thieves stole ^13m of metal from railways, say police

Metal worth ^13m has been stolen from the railways over the past three years, police have said.

British Transport Police said there were more than 6,000 such incidents between April 2008 and October 2011.

In half of cases, the stolen property involved equipment used for the safe and efficient operating of the network.

British Transport Police deputy chief constable Paul Crowther urged scrap dealers to make it more difficult for thieves to sell stolen goods to them.

The biggest single theft was at Loxdale Street, Bilston, in the West Midlands, in July of last year.

Thieves took 150m of fibre optic cable and 18km of earth bonding cable, each worth ^300,000. British Transport Police (BTP) said two men have been charged over the incidents.

Another ^300,000 worth of train buffers and components were stolen at Stoke-on-Trent in December 2009.

Overall, Rotherham Central was the worst affected station with 107 separate incidents costing a total of ^100,000.

There were 24 fewer incidents at Doncaster but they totalled nearly ^200,000, including an ^88,000 half-mile stretch of track taken in December 2010.

Other hotspots included Morpeth (77 incidents), Stockingford (69), Knottingly (67), Castleford (66), Hull (63) and Hartlepool (53)

Mr Crowther, head of the Association of Chief Police Officers metal theft working group, said BTP arrested more than 1,000 people in connection with cable thefts last year. He said: "We are continuing to work with police forces across the country to tackle metal thieves, but this is a crime driven by market forces and the outlet for stolen metal is through scrap metal dealers.

"Our biggest challenge is that criminals can turn up at scrap yards with copper cables and walk away with thousands of pounds in cash, with scrap yards either turning a blind eye to their criminality or taking metal with no questions asked. It's easy to convert this stolen property into cash and that's why we continue to focus our attention on dealers."

Infrastructure company Network Rail wants a change in the law to make it more difficult for thieves to sell cable and scrap to dealers.

A spokesman said: "Thieves, particularly those stealing cable, deny passengers the service they rightly expect and, through the massive cost to the industry, deny everyone improvements to rail services as funds have to be diverted from enhancing the railway to tackling crime."

On Sunday, insurer Ecclesiastical revealed that 2011 was the worst on record for the number of claims made by churches for metal theft.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 26, 2012, 20:12:37
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16738000):

Quote
Scrap metal laws to be tightened to tackle theft

Cash payments for scrap metal are to be outlawed and fines "significantly increased" to tackle the growing problem of metal theft.

Home Secretary Theresa May announced the proposed new laws in a written statement to MPs.

The measures will end the current "low-risk transactions" for people who steal metal - such as cables - which have disrupted rail services, she said.

Labour said the measures did not go far enough to tackle the "epidemic".

The metal recycling industry is worth ^5.6bn and employs 8,000 people in the UK.

There have been growing calls for action as metal thefts from railways have increased in recent years - causing disruption to 3.8 million passengers last year and costing more than ^16m.

Many churches have had lead stolen from their roofs, while copper has been taken from telephone exchanges and building sites.

In a parliamentary statement, Mrs May said a change in the law was the "only sustainable, long-term solution to the growing menace of metal theft.

"There is an urgent need to make stealing metal less attractive to criminals, and tackling the stolen metal market will act as a significant deterrent".

She announced that fines for all offences listed under the 1964 Scrap Metal Dealers Act would rise.

Cash payments for scrap metal would be banned, as they led to "anonymous, low-risk transactions" for thieves and meant "poor record keeping" within the industry, Mrs May said.

The new measures will be added as amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill.

Her announcement came on the day the Commons transport committee called for these and other measures to tackle metal theft.

The committee's chairman, Labour MP Louise Ellman, said of the scrap metal industry: "It's a Steptoe and Son situation... no questions asked."

For Labour, shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said proposals to increase fines and stop cash payments at scrap yards were welcome.

But she said police needed greater powers to enter scrap metal yards and close dealers not obeying the rules. "The Government needs to get serious on metal theft... wire theft is causing repeated power cuts, plunging communities regularly into darkness, and putting lives at risk. Yet despite this growing problem, the Home Secretary is being too slow and too sluggish."

She said Labour would be putting forward tougher and more substantial proposals in Parliament next week.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: tramway on January 31, 2012, 10:05:55
Coming to a scrap metal dealer near you, this from the Wiltshire Times. (http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/9501046.Arrests_as_police_stage_countywide_raid_on_scrap_metal_dealerships/)

Quote

Ten people have been arrested after police raided four scrap metal dealerships across Wiltshire today, including Trowbridge and Melksham, in a countywide crackdown on metal theft.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Lee on February 21, 2012, 10:15:27
From the Gloucestershire Echo: (http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/story-15288489-detail/story.html)

Quote from: Gloucestershire Echo
Three men arrested on suspicion of stealing cables from Gloucestershire railway lines have been bailed.

A 43-year-old man from Stratford was arrested following the theft at Honeybourne on February 5.

Two men, aged 18 and 24, both from Birmingham, were also arrested on the same night following a theft at Brockley.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 29, 2012, 15:00:11
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17858197):

Quote
Rail cable theft: No more money to help tackle crime

The government has ruled out any immediate extra money to help tackle cable theft on the railways.

The Transport Select Committee had said "as a matter of urgency" more funds should be given to the metal theft task force beyond the current ^5m. Chairman Louise Ellman said she was "disappointed" and ministers "should not sit back and wait" while theft continued to cause huge disruption.

Ministers said they would keep the issue of funding "under review".

The British Transport Police (BTP) metal theft task force is attempting to increase prosecutions and disrupt organised criminal gangs. It is also carrying out spot checks on scrap metal dealers, a key conduit for stolen material.

The government said more than 100 officers countrywide were part of the task force, and further details of their plans would be announced shortly. "Given the progress it is making with legislative measures to tackle metal theft... the government does not consider at this stage that further funding is likely to be required to extend the scope or or duration of the metal theft task force, but will keep the issue under review," it said.

The transport committee made a number of other recommendations, among them the creation of a new criminal offence of aggravated trespass on the railway.

However, the Department for Transport (DfT) said it wanted to "consider further" whether there was evidence to justify such a move, given "the steps already in hand to increase the resources available in the short term for enforcement". It said it had tabled amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill - currently awaiting Royal Assent - which satisfied other recommendations made by the committee.

These will prohibit most cash payments for scrap metal, require records to be kept of anyone selling scrap, and increase the maximum fine available for wrongdoing.

"This [will] provide a direct means of tracking the financial audit trail for sales of scrap metal, and hence go a substantial way towards enabling the identification of the sellers of stolen material," the DfT said.

The forthcoming bill will also extend police powers to search both registered and unregistered scrap metal dealers, the department added.

Labour MP Mrs Ellman said: "I am disappointed that the government will not provide further resources for the police to tackle metal theft despite BTP's leading work in this area. Cable theft cost Network Rail ^16m last year and disrupted [millions of] journeys, so the government should not sit back and wait whilst these figures are repeated. The government's announcement must be translated into action if this unacceptable situation is to be addressed with the urgency that is required."

The ban on selling scrap for cash excludes itinerant, house-to-house metal collectors, who will be allowed to continue if they are registered with their local authority.

Labour MP Graham Jones has voiced concerns about the potential loophole, arguing that many itinerant collectors had been "operating illegally" for many years and were "often the point at which stolen metal infects the supply chain". He urged police and councils to take advantage of new powers to prosecute and fine any who failed to comply with registrations.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: EBrown on May 05, 2012, 01:06:16
From Rail.co (http://www.rail.co/2012/05/04/police-introduce-new-measures-to-help-combat-metal-theft/)

Quote
Police introduce new measures to help combat metal theft
New measures to combat the increasing problem of metal theft are being introduced across the North West, British Transport Police have said.
Operation Tornado, spearheaded by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), will aim to make it easier to trace sellers of stolen metal through an identification scheme.
Tornado spokesman Chief Inspector Robin Edwards said:
^As of 9 May, those selling scrap metal to participating dealers in the region will be required to provide proof of their identity ^ either a photo card driving licence including an address, or a passport or national ID card supported by a utility bill, which must be under three months old and show their address.
^Operation Tornado is one of a number of measures currently being explored to restrict the sale and movement of stolen metal. It has been designed not to inhibit those dealers that operate legitimate businesses, but to remove unscrupulous dealers who operate outside the law.
^We are hoping all registered scrap metal dealers in the region will sign up to be involved to help fight the stolen metal trade and make it more difficult for thieves to make money by targeting our communities for metal.^


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on May 05, 2012, 01:18:04
But only to 'participating dealers'.  ::)

That won't stop the rogue dealers and may actually increase the use of the 'ask no questions' dealers out there. Whilst it's welcome that the problem is being addressed with a registration/identification scheme in one part of the country it may just push the problem elsewhere. The cable thieves will just look elsewhere for a place to sell their pilfered metal.

It really is time for legislation and not just the odd sticking plaster here and there.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ellendune on May 05, 2012, 10:40:46
Yes but I can imagine the number of spot checks on other dealers might be signficantly higher. 


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on May 05, 2012, 10:48:49
Not really practical to turn the clock back - but would the problem be so prevalent if signalling cables were still strung along telepgraph poles beside the line?


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: ellendune on May 05, 2012, 11:10:22
Yes, I think it would be.  The only solution seems to be to bury them in ducts.  This is being done on resignalling schemes in the North East, but I have not seen it anywhere on the Great Western Resignalling.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on May 05, 2012, 12:23:51
Not really practical to turn the clock back - but would the problem be so prevalent if signalling cables were still strung along telepgraph poles beside the line?
Yes ........ posibly even worse thieves are ripping down live yes and I do mean LIVE!!! 25,000 volt overheads to get at the copper and aluminium.

Yes, I think it would be.  The only solution seems to be to bury them in ducts.  This is being done on resignalling schemes in the North East, but I have not seen it anywhere on the Great Western Resignalling.

Burring even in duct has its own problems.  It is a lot more expensive and takes longer to install, often requiring machinery to do the excavations, the civil engineers have concerns over stability of embankments, cuttings and track bed when holes are dug.  Buried cables even in ducts are prone to being struck when someone comes along to dig a hole for something else 10 years after they were buried and everyone has forgotten they were there.

The answer is multifaceted technology to DNA mark cables, reduce the number of cables, NR to control all disposals of scrap generated by its contractors (that has a cost).  Detection of the crime and higher penalties for the thieves and for the handlers (ie scrap dealers)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 30, 2012, 03:07:47
From the BBC website, at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18243271 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18243271):

Quote
Railway cable theft: Eleven men charged

Eleven men have been charged with conspiracy to steal railway power cable in the north Cotswolds area between November and May.

The arrests were made in Birmingham and Warwickshire on 23 and 24 May as part of Operation Distillery.

It is investigating the theft of cable between Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh.

The men of Romanian origin, aged between 19 and 36, have been remanded in custody to appear at Birmingham Crown Court on 1 June.

On 23 May, four men were detained after a suspicious vehicle was stopped by Warwickshire Police officers near the railway line in Church Lawford, Warwickshire.

The following day officers from British Transport Police executed search warrants at five addresses in the Handsworth and Smethwick areas of Birmingham and arrested seven men.

Church Lawford is between Coventry and Rugby.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 23, 2012, 21:23:49
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-19354621):

Quote
Men jailed over 30 railway cable thefts in Warwickshire

Four men who stole 1,200m of railway cable in Warwickshire have been jailed.

All four had earlier pleaded guilty to conspiracy to steal cable from the railway around Nuneaton.

The court heard the 30 offences caused some 500 hours of train delays

Flame Redshaw, 20, of Stanley Road, and George Brunozzi-Jones, 22, of Lutterworth Road, were each jailed for three years.

Dominic Wallis, 23, of Dryden Close, was jailed for 19 months, while John Gowland, 26, of Heath End Road, was given three-and-a-half years.

Warwickshire Justice Centre heard the four men had caused about 500 hours of delays to trains in the area between August 2010 and March 2011.

The court was told the men were responsible for 30 cable offences over six months.

Network Rail paid more than ^200,000 for repairs and fines to train companies, as a result of delays.

In sentencing, Judge Marten Coates said a "deterrent was clearly needed".



Edit note: Images now removed due to expiry of copyright permission. CfN


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 04, 2012, 22:34:07
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-19742461):

Quote
Metal theft: 20 arrests in Caerphilly clampdown

Twenty people have been arrested and thousands of pounds worth of material recovered during a three-week metal theft operation in Caerphilly.

British Transport Police and Gwent Police stopped "itinerant collectors" and checked everyone in the vehicle.

There are now plans to see if it can be rolled out across more areas where metal theft is prevalent.

During the summer, Tonypandy Primary School in nearby Rhondda flooded after lead was stolen from the roof.

British Transport Police (BTP) said 44 vehicles were stopped and searched in the crackdown with 15 loads of scrap metal seized. Vehicles worth more than ^100,000 were impounded in the operation and 23 people reported for driving without a licence. In addition, 14 people were reported for failing to keep appropriate records of metal sales.

In a statement, BTP said: "Over the three-week period, the work carried out contributed to a massive reduction in metal theft and other aspects of criminality. Most notably, not a single metal theft took place in the Rhymney Valley, which had always been an area where metal thefts had caused severe disruption to the railway."

BTP Det Insp Mark Cleland told Radio Wales: "We kept it simple, and it boiled down to two British Transport Police officers together with a couple of Gwent officers working with the environment agency and revenue and customs. We were out there daily stopping people, arresting them, working very closely with scrap metal dealers as well."

The initiative was so successful there are now plans to extend it, he said.

"This was a three-week trial to see if we could really make a big difference and we've shown that we can, so now we're looking to expand this and extend it further to see if we can really make a huge impact on metal theft in south Wales."

Det Insp Cleland added the number of metal thefts had also been cut due to another initiative called operation Tornado "a code of conduct for the scrap metal dealers".

"We work with them and when people bring metal in we ask them to bring photo-identification with them. The majority of scrap metal dealers are signed up to operation Tornado and we've seen some success with that already with a huge reduction in metal thefts Wales-wide."

Det Insp Cleland added: "Legislation comes in later this year which will make scrap metal dealing a cash-less system and we think that this, in conjunction with operation Tornado, will really help solve this problem."

One of the initiative's successes has been the recovery of three tonnes of British Telecom Cable and the arrest of one person on Wednesday.

"It could be that you couldn't ring 999 because of this theft, and we see this seizure of cable - worth thousands and thousands of pounds - as a really big success."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 21, 2012, 22:31:39
From the British Transport Police press release (http://www.btp.presscentre.com/Media-Releases/Cable-thief-who-suffered-11-000-volt-burns-injury-is-jailed-South-Wales-1ce0.aspx):

Quote
Cable thief who suffered 11,000 volt burns injury is jailed ^ South Wales

A Beddau man who electrocuted and burnt himself while trying to steal live cable has been jailed for 18 months, following a British Transport Police (BTP) investigation.

Mark Lawrence Blay, aged 40, of Mildred Street, was hospitalised after cutting into an electricity cable carrying 11,000 volts. The incident left him with deep burns to his left hand.

Last week, Cardiff Crown Court was told that BTP officers were called to Pontyclun railway station on Monday, 17 October 2011, following a report of an attempted cable theft from under a railway river bridge.

Upon arrival, it was discovered that an electricity cable carrying 11,000 volts had been partially cut and black burn marks could be seen on the wall where the attack took place. A number of cut marks were also found on railway signalling cable.

Officers carried out a search of the area and recovered a number of items, including burnt clothing, tools and a rucksack. These were sent off for forensic analysis and subsequently confirmed the presence of Blay^s DNA.

Following enquiries made at local hospitals, it was discovered that Blay had been admitted to Royal Glamorgan Hospital with severe burns and skin loss to his left hand before being transferred to Morriston Hospital^s burns unit.

The attempted theft resulted in loss of power for around an hour to 2,400 Western Power customers, the court heard. The total cost in terms of repairing the cable was ^13,899.

In interview, Blay denied all knowledge of the attempted theft and claimed to have sustained his injuries when he hit an electrical cable while digging his back garden. Enquiries with Blay^s landlord revealed there were no cables under his garden.

Appearing for sentence on Wednesday, 10 October, unemployed Blay ^ who pleaded guilty to criminal damage, going equipped for theft and attempted theft - was sentenced to a total of 18 months^ imprisonment.

Detective Inspector Mark Cleland said: ^This was a planned attack motivated purely by profit. Blay went equipped to steal, in the process demonstrating a flagrant disregard for the local community, which suffered power loss as a consequence of his actions.

^The evidence against Blay ^ including the tools and clothing recovered from the scene, the burns to his hand and the compelling DNA evidence ^ was overwhelming.

^This is yet another example of the huge impact metal theft has on our communities, with many homes and commercial premises suffering as a result of his greed.

^There is a common assumption that cable theft is a victimless crime, with the only effects being felt by the railway industry and telecommunication and electrical companies - this is simply not the case, as was demonstrated by this crime.

"Stealing cable is also incredibly dangerous. As serious as his injuries were, Blay was extremely fortunate to escape with nothing but severe burns ^ he could quite easily have been killed.

^Crime which involves the theft or attempted theft of cable attracts strong penalties and I hope the sentence handed to Blay will act as a deterrent to others.^


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on October 21, 2012, 23:30:29
Good, I say. 11,000 volts through every cable would help deter the casual idiot, so long as every incident is reported with graphic details of the injuries sustained. Imagine being locked up in gaol for 6 or 7 months with a hand so badly burned as to deny one even its normal "recreational" use. Such a nightmare scenario would deter any male under the age of 42 more than anything else.

Getting hurt in the commission of a crime is increasingly being ignored in dealing with offenders. In Victorian days, a certain judge, on hearing a defence of intoxication, would opine that the defendant should be sentenced twice; first, for the offence, then for getting so drunk that he didn't know what he was doing*

Think also of that 'armless cove, recently given a free first-class airfare to the USA to answer certain charges. His barrister argued that his mental capacity was declining as a result of increasing mental trauma. The judge's answer was "Better get on with it PDQ, then, whilst he still knows what's occurring".

Something not unlike Blackpool Rock would help, like cable that says "This is the property of National Rail" no matter how small it is sliced. I am guessing also that copper, indeed all metal, = will play a smaller part in future signalling projects than in past, and fibre optic cable doesn't have the scrap value of the others.

(* In my case, your Honour, I did know what I was doing, and that it was wrong. It's just that I was enjoying it so much that I couldn't stop, and in any case .... I'll get my coat).


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 26, 2012, 21:19:11
From Bedford Today (http://www.bedfordtoday.co.uk/news/regional/man-charged-after-railway-death-1-4415995):

Quote
Man charged after railway death

A man from Essex will face criminal charges over an alleged attempt to steal railway cables which led to the death of a suspected accomplice.

Mark Bradshaw, 43, of Canvey, has been charged with endangering railway passengers and attempted theft of electrical cable from an overhead line following the incident near Benfleet on June 27.

The body of a man in his 40s was found beside railway line at the scene and police believe the death may be linked to the alleged attempted theft.

Grace Ononiwu, chief crown prosecutor for East of England CPS, said: "After considering all the evidence, we have advised that Bradshaw should be charged with endangering railway passengers, or any other persons who might use or be on that track for any reason, by an unlawful act.

"This charge reflects the danger caused not only to passengers travelling on the railway but to Bradshaw and his alleged accomplice."

The incident happened on the London to Shoeburyness line.

Bradshaw has been bailed to appear at Southend Magistrates' Court on November 12.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: trainer on October 26, 2012, 21:59:13
It's really good to read that some progress is being made in combating this pernicious crime.  As the message gets out that this is now high priority for all Police forces, perhaps we can look forward to fewer delays (and less expense) on the railways and drier schools and churches!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on October 27, 2012, 09:51:54
I see from an article in the November issue of Modern Railways that Network Rail is now using a new type of cable for resignalling works that has encoded NR identification in the cable. At least something is being done to help identify such railway cable if found after a theft and might discourage further thefts by the informed members of the criminal fraternity.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 03, 2013, 21:36:25
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20902527):

Quote
Failed cable thief who fell from Manchester viaduct jailed

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65061000/jpg/_65061855_johndaw.jpg)
Daw fractured his pelvis, skull and right leg in the fall from the viaduct

A man who fell off a viaduct while trying to steal cable from a Metrolink line in Manchester has been jailed.

John Daw suffered multiple fractures falling 50ft (15m) from the track near Cornbrook station after he ran away from staff who disturbed him trying to cut fibre optic cables on 9 May. The damage caused tram services to be stopped for several hours.

Daw, 41, of Ordsall, admitted attempted theft at Manchester Crown Court and was jailed for two years and nine months.

Daw fell on to wasteland below the viaduct, fracturing his skull, pelvis and right leg, and had to be rescued by firefighters, who broke open a steel door to get to him.

Greater Manchester Police's John Wood said Daw, of Carmel Avenue, had put himself in serious danger trying to steal the cable.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60124000/jpg/_60124916_cornbrook_metrolink_geograph.jpg)
Daw fell from the viaduct while running away from staff near Cornbrook Station

"In attempting to steal cables from a live track, Daw risked his own life before nearly killing himself after trying to escape," he said. "His actions caused several hours of very frustrating delays for passengers. When you factor in the lost revenue from commuters and the repairs to the track itself, the cost of Daw's actions runs into hundreds of thousands and all for just a few moments of sheer recklessness."

A police spokesman said the attempted theft stopped trams to Eccles, Altrincham, MediaCityUK and St Werburgh's Road and also damaged the public address system, meaning passengers could not be informed of delays.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: old original on January 03, 2013, 21:53:35
Shame he had to inflict cost on the emergency services, NHS, courts services and prison service, let alone to all involved to the disruption to the transport system at the time. Capital punishment? damn right!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on January 04, 2013, 21:31:08
Come on Old Original, we have a long way to go before we stoop that low! A few hundred people being inconvenienced isn't on the same scale as a terrorist outrage, is it?

As a matter of interest, I see he was stealing fibre optic cable. Now, I'm no Jeffrey Archer, but I thought they were made out mainly of glass rather than copper, and are not something I could weigh at my local scrap yard in the hope of trousering a pile of cash.  Does this mean that our budding young master criminal, who jumped over a 50-foot viaduct that he clearly thought was just a low wall, who nearly killed himself, and who may find it difficult to run anywhere ever again, let alone from the police, has got himself petered up for not even any potential financial gain?

Some criminal mastermind, eh? Don't try this in Clifton, my friend. The more of them that do this, the quicker the problem will go away. In the meantime, maybe we should have (plastic) signs put up under viaducts to warn pedestrians "Beware of falling metal thieves!"


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on January 04, 2013, 22:08:59
Shame he had to inflict cost on the emergency services, NHS, courts services and prison service, let alone to all involved to the disruption to the transport system at the time. Capital punishment? damn right!

Capital punishment? Really? You want to see state sanctioned killing for a cable thief?

I think karma has done a good enough job on John Daw.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on January 05, 2013, 13:17:58

Capital punishment? Really? You want to see state sanctioned killing for a cable thief?

I think karma has done a good enough job on John Daw.

Maybe punishment in the capital would make him calmer.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 05, 2013, 16:31:04
Personally, reading about the sequence of events recounted in that BBC report, I thought John Daw was rather lucky not to be eligible for a Darwin Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards) ... ::)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on January 05, 2013, 17:39:59
Personally, reading about the sequence of events recounted in that BBC report, I thought John Daw was rather lucky not to be eligible for a Darwin Award (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards) ... ::)
He certainly could be first amongst equals in the railway cable thieves peer group; they all have a total disregard for their own safety and well being.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: onthecushions on January 05, 2013, 20:33:50

Stealing "live" signalling cable involves the risk of a wrong side failure even for a few seconds. An HST entering an occupied section at full speed puts the lives of all on board at "capital" risk.

No punishment, including hanging would deter someone who will cut live 650V cable with shears or jump off a 15m high viaduct. Which of the 4 "R's" might then work - Retribution, Restraint, Reformation, Reparation - depends on the individual criminal. We don't seem to have it right yet.

OTC


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2013, 23:10:56
One from 'our' area and one that shows that even those working in the rail industry can be tempted by scrap metal value.

From This Is Wiltshire (http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/10277335._/?):

Quote
Men admit to taking scrap railway lines

The former manager at the Trackwork depot in Westbury has admitted stealing thousands of pounds worth of scrap railway lines from work.

Martin Wrighthouse was one of six men who were due to stand trial before a judge at Swindon crown court on Monday.

But before a jury could be sworn on the first morning of the three weeks set aside for the case, the 51-year-old and haulier Melvyn Bownes, 50, each admitted theft.

And once they had changed their pleas to guilty, prosecutors dropped the charges against the four other men in the dock alongside them.

Iain Bryers, 45, Craig Chadwick, 44, Stephen Page, 54, and Daniel Bownes, 21, all had formal not guilty verdicts entered in their cases.

Wrighthouse, formerly of Primrose Place, Westbury, but now living in Cheshire and Melvyn Bownes, of Worksop, Nottinghamshire, admitted taking lengths of track, which belonged to Network Rail and were worth up to ^3,990, from the depot on December 22, 2011.

The pair had also been accused of staging a cover up by causing a false order form. But prosecutors said they would not seek a trial on the charge of perverting the course of justice and asked for the count to lie on file.

Judge Douglas Field adjourned the case to April 12, and cleared Bryers, of Fell Road, Westbury, Page, of Southampton, and Daniel Bownes, of Worksop, Notts, of theft; and Chadwick, of Bridge Court, Westbury, of perverting the course of justice.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on March 10, 2013, 23:33:28

No punishment, including hanging would deter someone who will cut live 650V cable with shears

OTC

Hanging, whilst I do not support it in any circumstance, would stop them doing it again.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on March 10, 2013, 23:40:14
Chances of them being around, or in a fit state, to do it again would be unlikely. If not death by electrocution then the major burns will concentrate the mind on the folly of their action.

Their only legacy would be a Darwin Award or Honourable Mention.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2013, 20:50:52
A video news report, from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21950623):

Quote
Network Rail worker held for cable thefts from railways

Police have arrested 15 people, including a Network Rail employee, who they suspect were responsible for ^2 million worth of damage and cable theft from railway lines up and down the UK.

The suspects were picked up during dawn raids in the north-east of England.

Ed Thomas reports.

 :o


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2013, 21:04:20
Not likely to look good in his next annual report, is it?

Every company, mine included, will suffer from employees trying to take the product home with them. If this allegation is proven against a NR employee, though, it will be seen by the court as a huge breach of trust, as well as substantial theft and damage. If he did it, his legal team will suggest he puts his hands up at the first opportunity. With the sums involved, there will also be a Proceeds of Crime investigation.

In that video, I liked the use of the Police Universal Doorkey.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: trainer on March 27, 2013, 21:36:15
I liked the use of the Police Universal Doorkey.

Ha ha!  ;D  Perhaps PUD should go in the abbreviation list.

Seriously, though, if the suspects are found to have been the perpetrators it will be a step forward by the sound of the alleged extent of it.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 31, 2013, 18:13:28
From the South Wales Argus (http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/gwentnews/10308410._/?):

Quote
Newport man jailed for metal theft

A Newport man was given a six-month sentence after admitting stealing specialist signalling equipment, belonging to Network Rail and worth ^12,000.

Paul Rudge, 39, of Maesglas Crescent, already had 24 previous convictions for theft and had appeared in court 35 times over the last 27 years for 69 offences.

At Cwmbran Magistrates^ Court yesterday, District Judge Richard Williams handed him the sentence, saying he hoped it would act as a deterrent to others who might consider metal thefts from the railways.

Prosecutor Lisa James told the court that Rudge was spotted at the National Rail depot at Crindau, Newport, at 10.45pm on December 7, running on the path around the perimeter fence. She said two lengths of cable totalling 14 metres had been cut off a reel, and a hacksaw, snapped hacksaw blade, rucksack, Stanley knife and rubber gloves were left nearby. Police dogs were sent after Rudge, and footprints were found in the mud which matched the trainers he was wearing.

Defence solicitor Paul Lewis said Rudge admitted the offence at the first opportunity. He had recently been released from hospital following an operation and took off when the affected area of his body became too painful.

In a statement, a Network Rail spokesman said the cable was specially designed to be used in signaling equipment and cost ^12,000. While it was all recovered, two lengths were cut off, meaning that to be used, joints would need to be placed in the these. If this is done, the loss to Network Rail will be ^6,000. However, for such specialist equipment, this is not desirable and the most likely outcome is that they will be scrapped.

Rudge must serve half of the six-month sentence.

Hmm.  ::)  Personal comment from me (and I tend not to make them, in the interests of impartiality):

Quote
Paul Rudge, 39, of Maesglas Crescent, already had 24 previous convictions for theft and had appeared in court 35 times over the last 27 years for 69 offences.

Does that not suggest that something has been missed, in the legal process of 'discouraging' such re-offending?  :-\


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on April 02, 2013, 18:48:17

Does that not suggest that something has been missed, in the legal process of 'discouraging' such re-offending?  :-\

My thoughts also. Three months in the slammer probably won't even deter him, let alone anyone else. The potential scrap value would be a fraction of the cost to NR, and therefore us.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 21, 2013, 20:10:31
From the Wiltshire Times (http://www.wiltshiretimes.co.uk/news/10367685._/?):

Quote
Man avoids jail over theft

The former manager at the Westbury Trackwork depot has avoided jail for stealing scrap railway lines.

Martin Wrighthouse admitted abusing his position at the yard, next to Westbury station, to arrange the theft.

But after hearing the tracks were scrap, a judge imposed a suspended sentence.

The 51-year-old took part in the theft with haulier Melvyn Bownes, 50.

Wrighthouse, formerly of Primrose Place, Westbury, but now living in Cheshire, and Bownes, of Worksop, Nottinghamshire, pleaded guilty to theft of the lengths of track, which belonged to Network Rail and were worth up to ^3,990, from the depot on December 22, 2011.

Passing sentence last Friday, Judge Douglas Field imposed a three-month jail term suspended for a year on Wrighthouse and ordered him to do 180 hours of community service. Bownes was put on a community service order and told to do 120 hours of unpaid work.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: grahame on August 15, 2015, 03:40:38
This subject seems to have gone quiet (good news or no longer newsworthy?) but I did come across this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-33931602

Quote
Beavers cut Trans-Siberian Railway signal wiring

When signal wires were cut on Russia's Trans-Siberian Railway, police suspected metal thieves were to blame - but it turned out to be the work of beavers.

Transport police were called to a section of the famous trans-continental line in the southern Kemerovo region by railway staff, after the signalling system was knocked out, the local Kemerovo Independent City Site reports. "This often happens in remote areas, where criminals on the hunt for non-ferrous metals steal equipment or cut out sections of cables," the police say in a statement.

But after arriving at the scene and finding that the copper wiring had been severed but was still in place, officers realised they weren't really needed.....


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 15, 2015, 09:23:12
Good news.  The number of cable theft incidents has reduced to a trickle from a torrent.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on August 15, 2015, 12:52:08
Indeed, it appears the new laws have worked.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: JayMac on August 15, 2015, 13:56:28
That and the fact copper prices have been steadily falling for the past few years.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on August 15, 2015, 19:57:59

Quote
Beavers cut Trans-Siberian Railway signal wiring


The Scout Movement isn't what it used to be, although they start them young in Russia.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on August 16, 2015, 13:42:21
Both the falling price of copper and stricter laws regulating the scrap industry have helped, but I feel that another factor has helped reduce metal thefts from the railway, and from the electrical industry.

There has been IME a hardening of public attitudes towards scrap thieves who suffer injury or worse in pursuit of theft. I hear less of "oh dear those poor kids" and more of "serves em right, wont do that again" after thieves have been blown up.

Not far from here a thief was killed whilst stealing power cables and the reaction of those nearby was far from sympathetic.
Deliberately imposing capital punishment for theft is going a bit far, but if a thief is killed as a result of attempting to steal cables etc, then I for one have no sympathy whatsoever and might be tempted to laugh at their misfortune, and I would certainly hope that others would thereby be deterred.

I appreciate that the aftermath can be most unpleasant for the emergency services, and they have my sympathies for having to deal with it.
But for the thief I have no sympathies.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 16, 2015, 15:20:08
I have no sympathy for the thief either, but as with any death I do have sympathy for friends, family and those dealing with, or affected by, such an incident- especially railway related deaths which are often very unpleasant.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on August 16, 2015, 17:02:11
Yes, I feel very sorry for those dealing with the aftermath, and depending on how charitable I was feeling I might have some sympathy for the family, but for the thief I think they got what they deserved.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on August 17, 2015, 08:30:21
I have no sympathy for the thief either, but as with any death I do have sympathy for friends, family and those dealing with, or affected by, such an incident- especially railway related deaths which are often very unpleasant.

If you have ever been involved in clearing the mess up after these thieves visits or had whole project streams stopped dead (no pun intended) because systems have been so badly compromised you will not have much sympathy at all; yes it is always saddening when some one dies or is seriously injured, however in my experience these gangs are often family (and close friends) firms if they are not directly involved in the actual crime they are certainly knowledgeable about it and more than likely living off of the proceeds.  The scrap dealers where not whiter than white they turned a blind eye to the source of much of the copper turning up at the weigh bridge.

I am more concerned with the wellbeing of the Emergency Services that have to go an pick up the bits, the Railway staff who have to effect repairs and the reputational damage caused and costs incurred to the Railway Industry by these criminals.



Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 17, 2015, 10:16:05
Yes, I would agree that my sympathy levels would plummet should friends and family of such a death be 'in on the deal' in some way.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on April 16, 2016, 22:24:53
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-36062482):

Quote
Man arrested over Caldercote signalling cable theft

A man has been arrested after signalling cable was stolen causing major rail disruption in and around Birmingham.

Fifty-nine trains were cancelled when eight metres of cabling was stolen on 29 March near Caldecote.

It caused delays of more than 19 hours at Birmingham New Street station, said British Transport Police.

A 29-year-old man from Nuneaton arrested on suspicion of theft has been released on bail.

Det Insp Gareth Davies from BTP said: "Our investigation into this theft is ongoing and we are still interested in hearing from anyone with any information about what happened."


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 07, 2018, 21:48:15
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-42578645):

Quote
Thieves risk lives for railway cables, transport police says

Thieves are risking their lives to steal rail cables which have little value and cause massive disruption, British Transport Police has said.

Fourteen metal theft incidents caused 10,000 minutes of delays on the Wales and Borders line in 2017.

One incident in south Wales amounted to nearly half of that time, affecting 387 services.

Network Rail boss Bill Kelly said it was not a "victimless crime" given the disruption caused to travellers.

When live cables are cut, it can cause a power failure on the network, turning all signals powered by the damaged cable to red and bringing trains to a standstill.

Sgt Ben Randall-Webb from British Transport Police said: "Cable theft not only results in significant delays and cancellations right across the rail network, but any attempt to steal cable is also incredibly dangerous, and anyone seeking to do so risks serious injury, or even death, through electrocution.

"Offences linked to theft of metal on the railway can attract a penalty of up to life imprisonment, so the implications are severe.  However, the irony is that railway cable has no real value outside the railway industry, yet the cost to replace it is extremely high.  In fact, thieves will struggle to get any money at all, as scrap metal dealers are highly unlikely to accept any cable."

Mr Kelly, chief operating officer for Network Rail in Wales and Borders, said: "With more passengers travelling on our network than ever before, even a small delay can have a huge impact on the network."




Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on January 08, 2018, 14:28:47
Too much emphasis on the danger faced by the thieves, IMO.
I do not much care about the welfare of such thieves, they certainly wont do it again if killed.

I am of course very sorry for railway employees and the emergency services who have to deal with the gruesome aftermath of blown up or run over thieves, but for the thieves themselves, tough.

This not just a railway problem, a growing cause of power cuts is theft of cables. Sometimes the thieves break into substations and steal the neutral or earthing conductors, with disastrous results.

This video shows one such incidenthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgWAenS9kzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgWAenS9kzc)


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 08, 2018, 15:17:24
Presumably the risk to thieves is emphasised in an attempt at deterrence.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on January 08, 2018, 20:07:57
Too much emphasis on the danger faced by the thieves, IMO.
I do not much care about the welfare of such thieves, they certainly wont do it again if killed.

Dealing with the restoration of a traction substation the mess left of metal thieves is bad enough to deal with that pales into insignificance compared with the aftermath of when one of then gets kill I have been involved in a site where there was a death quite frankly its gruesome.   

I am more than happy that publicity is give to the fact they risk their lives because even the worst of them care for their own life the quite frankly don't give a jot about people being late for work, indeed some get a buzz out of knowing that fact.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: johnneyw on January 08, 2018, 20:18:15
Too much emphasis on the danger faced by the thieves, IMO.
I do not much care about the welfare of such thieves, they certainly wont do it again if killed.

I am of course very sorry for railway employees and the emergency services who have to deal with the gruesome aftermath of blown up or run over thieves, but for the thieves themselves, tough.

This not just a railway problem, a growing cause of power cuts is theft of cables. Sometimes the thieves break into substations and steal the neutral or earthing conductors, with disastrous results.

This video shows one such incidenthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgWAenS9kzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgWAenS9kzc)


Blinkin' flip!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on January 08, 2018, 21:43:43
Crikey! And the day after he had had the windows cleaned, too.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: stuving on January 09, 2018, 00:03:40
You'll have spotted that that event wasn't recent. 2011 was when the copper price peaked at £6/kg, having been only £1/kg in 2000. As the Chinese demand dropped since then, the price fell to £3/kg, but is now almost back up to its peak. So expect copper theft to recrudesce as well. Note that the scrap price is quoted at around half the bulk price above, but I'll bet it's less if you look like a small-time crook.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on January 09, 2018, 00:31:10
As pointed out, the incident to which I linked was some years ago. Many other fires and blow ups have resulted from copper theft, but that episode is one of the few of which decent quality video exists.

And yes the copper price has increased a great deal recently, so I expect more thefts from the railway and elsewhere.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: RA on January 09, 2018, 04:15:10
The signalling system between Filton and Bristol Temple Meads has been affected since approximately 21:30 on Monday. Cause now confirmed as cable theft between Narroways Hill Junction and Filton Abbey Wood. Expect disruption on Tuesday morning.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on January 09, 2018, 06:50:15
You'll have spotted that that event wasn't recent. 2011 was when the copper price peaked at £6/kg, having been only £1/kg in 2000. As the Chinese demand dropped since then, the price fell to £3/kg, but is now almost back up to its peak. So expect copper theft to recrudesce as well. Note that the scrap price is quoted at around half the bulk price above, but I'll bet it's less if you look like a small-time crook.

Copper thefts on the network have been on the increase over the last 3 to 4 months, mainly at a couple of hot spots around the country.

The removal of cash payment at dealers has helped, but there is now an increase in "Fagin" type dealers who take launder the raw nicked material, pay sweat labour to strip and clean they then process it through a "legit" dealers as bright metal


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: grahame on January 09, 2018, 06:59:23
The signalling system between Filton and Bristol Temple Meads has been affected since approximately 21:30 on Monday. Cause now confirmed as cable theft between Narroways Hill Junction and Filton Abbey Wood. Expect disruption on Tuesday morning.

Ironic after we were discussing it yesterday evening ...


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: johnneyw on January 09, 2018, 11:45:22
From the Bristol Evening Post,

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-train-passengers-urged-not-1031699


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on January 09, 2018, 11:58:42
I thought we had seen the back of this problem...clearly not!

A lot of chaos and disruption having been caused to many people's journey today and still continuing.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: TonyK on January 09, 2018, 13:41:06
I thought we had seen the back of this problem...clearly not!

A lot of chaos and disruption having been caused to many people's journey today and still continuing.

The fourth event in the current financial year, according to the report on BBC Points West lunchtime news. A test train is apparently on the way as we speak, and services should be restored very soon. Apparently, sourcing road transport proved difficult because of the timing.

And all this on a day when more people than usual will be taking trains from Bristol to Manchester. I hope any early departing fans have been able to go via Swindon. Trains from Manchester have been terminating at Birmingham New Street.

Edinburgh to Plymouth has just passed Cam and Dursly, so someone is expecting a resumption.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Timmer on January 09, 2018, 18:59:40
Yes it was the main story on Points West tonight. After a sharp decline thanks to law changes and the value of copper, it’s on the up again which is very concerning for everyone involved with the railway, especially the long suffering rail travelling public.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: martyjon on September 11, 2018, 05:49:01
11-09-2018 JourneyCheck reporting attempted cable theft between Bradford-on-Avon and Westbury.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: bobm on September 11, 2018, 07:26:05
Was first discovered yesterday morning but not identified as attempted cable theft until later in the day.

Has affected Greenland Mill level crossing near Bradford-on-Avon station.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: WelshBluebird on September 11, 2018, 10:44:07
Was first discovered yesterday morning but not identified as attempted cable theft until later in the day.

Has affected Greenland Mill level crossing near Bradford-on-Avon station.

Explains why it was being announced as problem with a crossing throughout the day then!


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: grahame on April 14, 2019, 06:05:19
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47901062)

Quote
The length of time passengers are being delayed on Great Britain's railways because of cable thefts has reached a five-year high, new figures suggest.

The BBC's 5 Live Investigates found there were nearly 950 hours of delays in 2018 across more than 7,000 journeys in England, Wales and Scotland.

British Transport Police figures also show an 85% increase in live cable thefts last year.


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: Electric train on April 14, 2019, 08:32:35
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47901062)

Quote
The length of time passengers are being delayed on Great Britain's railways because of cable thefts has reached a five-year high, new figures suggest.

The BBC's 5 Live Investigates found there were nearly 950 hours of delays in 2018 across more than 7,000 journeys in England, Wales and Scotland.

British Transport Police figures also show an 85% increase in live cable thefts last year.

In addition to the visible cost of delays to passengers and the obvious associated costs to repair the damage caused; there are the costs of network security some hot spots have 24 / 7 security presence ie security staff present all day every day, the installation of overt and covert CCTV and alarm systems etc these all add costs to the travelling public.

The Courts do not always take the full victim costs into account when passing sentence.  The levels of damage caused to railway systems often runs into tens of thousands of pounds for a scrap value of tens of pounds


Title: Re: Cable / copper / metal theft - ongoing problems on the railways and elsewhere
Post by: broadgage on April 14, 2019, 15:21:47
I agree that cable theft from railways or elsewhere is not taken seriously enough.
Penalties should reflect not the scrap value of the material stolen, but the full costs of rectifying the damage.

A hardening of public and official attitudes would also help.
A bit less of "oh those poor kids" and a bit more "HA HA they wont do that again" when a thief is killed.

I do of course sympathise with railway staff and emergency services workers who are faced with most unpleasant scenes. But for the thieves them selves I have no sympathy whatsoever.








 



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