Great Western Coffee Shop

About a month ago I was refused access to the platforms at Salisbury Station by a couple of less than polite SWT employees, because I didn't have "a valid ticket".
Following a further (very polite) discussion with the duty manager I was given access. During this discussion I raised the subject of Platform Tickets and was told "we stopped selling Platform Tickets when the barriers were put in" !!!!! She WAS serious !"

Following this incident I wrote to SWT complaining about their staff (the first two !) and asking what their policy was now on platform access for non travellers.
Their reply totally ignored my comments about their staff and went on to inform me that as there were a lot of "less than honest " people around, EVERYONE would be treated as such.

(It was also obvious that the "letter" was a "press Enter to get standard reply letter to a complaint" as it referred to my having filled in their "Any Concerns" form.  As I had bothered to write a proper letter it would have been courteous, if nothing else, for someone to have done the same in response.)

Earlier this evening my wife and I went to Salisbury Station to meet my daughter arriving from Waterloo. As it was cold and raining we sat in the car until about 5 mins before the train was due; then we went into the booking hall - to find - all the gates locked open ! Not a single member of staff to be seen.

I can only assume that SWT think that all the "less than honest" folk are all in the pubs by 1815 on a Saturday !

You will often find all the barriers at Bristol Temple Meads similarly 'locked open' in the evening, moonrakerz ...  ::)

And at Exeter St Davids, at the time when they are most needed.

Under the penalty fares rules, set by DaFT, they are obliged to make 'an arrangement' for people seeing others off, or enthusiasts, to access the station. This is at stations with both penalty fares and a compulsory tickets area, if you have barriers but no penalty fares this does not apply.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

It doesn't have to be a platform ticket, although its difficult to think how anything else could work effectively. So you absolutely should not have been challenged, even politely, at worst you should have been sent to the ticket office or machine to buy a platform ticket.

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, IainH!  :)

A couple of weeks ago, when I had arranged to meet a member of this forum at Bristol Temple Meads, I simply had a word with the FGW chap on the barriers and he let me through. On the way back out, I spoke to a different member of staff, and they also just nodded me through.

If that hadn't worked, my 'plan B' was to buy a return ticket to Lawrence Hill, and just use that as effectively a platform ticket at BRI!

I think there should be proper platform tickets, and staff on the barriers should be rather more diligent in checking tickets generally, if the penalty fare system is ever going to work.

I think the barrier staff can be a little slack with checking tickets at BRI sometimes.  I've been let through having arrived without a ticket, see this post (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6123.msg60184#msg60184).

I don't know what SWT train their staff at "barrier school", but it certainly isn't customer service.  I've had a run-in with staff at the Havant barriers on several occassions previously.  Notably I wasn't allowed through with an advance ticket for Southern until the previous SWT train had departed "to prevent me getting the wrong train".  I've also had comments on my faded railcard (which is now replaced).  I tend to avoid this station and go from Cosham where there are no barrier staff to contend with.

Welcome to the forum Ian.

Thank you for that link, VERY interesting - I feel another letter to SWT coming on !

The whole series of events on the first occasion was:

We went to Salisbury to collect our daughter travelling down from Kent. Normally she would have gone on to Warminster, but there were no through trains that day and as she had been unwell she asked if we could collect her from Salisbury.

My wife approached the young "lady" on the barriers and asked if we could go through. She was told very brusquely, not without a ticket. I then arrived and was told quite rudely, that in effect: "no ticket - no entry". End of story !
I then went to the booking office window and enquired about platform tickets.  At first I was told that "we don't sell them" - when I said that I thought they still existed, I was told "we have been told not to sell them". When I said that I needed to get onto the platforms, the response was "that's your problem", and the man turned away from the window !

I then asked at the barrier to speak to the Duty Manager, who was very polite, but was obviously "toeing the party line", hence her ludicrous statement about platform tickets. When I said that I could access the platforms at (say) Romsey without a hindrance, she then said that was "covered" because they had ticket machines ! I pointed out AGAIN that I didn't want to travel - just to meet my daughter ! 

Eventually she let us through. When we came to leave, we waited by the barrier for the original "lady" to let us out. She either had VERY poor eyesight  or deliberately ignored us. Eventually she did let us out with as much ill grace as she could muster.

The main reason I wrote and complained was the attitude of the first two members of staff, BUT I may well now chase up the barrier question again !

In view of your account of that particular incident, moonrakerz, I'd encourage you to do so - and please do let us know the outcome, in due course!

Chris. >:(

That rule is only in the Compulsory Ticket Area section though - so if the station hasn't a CTA it may not be relevant.  Being a penalty fare station doesn't automatically require a CTA.  Salisbury shouldn't have a CTA as FGW do not run a PF scheme there.

Yet another odd aspect of the PF rules - why isn't there a requirement to be able to deal with bona fide meeting and greeting at any station?

Paul

What exactly is a CTA ?  As you rightly say Salisbury should not (normally !) have a CTA due to FGW not operating a PF policy on this route.
As far as I, as an ordinary member of the public, am concerned Salisbury IS a CTA - we were both informed that we needed a "valid ticket" to enter the platform area. If that isn't a CTA, what is it ?
Are SWT making up their own rules ?

The DfT rules (from IanH's link) seem to be quite clear and unambiguous:

"4.10 At stations with a CTA, operators must make arrangements for people who are not travelling to be allowed into the part of the station covered by the CTA, if they have a good reason. This includes people who are meeting passengers, seeing passengers off or helping them with luggage, people helping passengers with disabilities, and people such as railway enthusiasts. The arrangements might include making platform tickets available at the ticket office or from a machine"


I am putting together another letter to SWT to see what that brings.

The link above also states
4.9 Warning notices must be placed at each entrance to the CTA, in line with rule 4. CTAs can cause confusion if there are no barriers at the entrance to the platforms because people think that they are free to walk onto the platforms without a ticket. So it is very important that a CTA is clearly marked so that people know they must have a ticket or platform ticket before they enter that area.

This implies to me that they [SWT] must have notices at the entrance to the CTA.  I can't imagine that a barrier would be an acceptable notice.

I've had a similar experience at Salisbury when I wanted to help my fiance with her luggage onto a (FGW) train. I was denied access quite brusqely, and when I wrote to SWT (and FGW to inform them that SWT were denying assistance to one of their customers) I was given a completely irrelevant automatic response.

I didn't know that FGWs services were non PF- does that mean I could have walked up to the barrier staff and tell them we were FGW customers, so it had nothing to do with SWT ticketing policy?

You still need a ticket to travel on an FGW service, unless they start advertising a 'buy on board' policy, you won't get through the station barrier - whether it is human or automatic gateline.

Ignoring PFs for the moment, the National Conditions of Carriage and the byelaws already require you to have a ticket before you board.

Paul

I wasn't travelling- my fiance was and had a valid ticket to do so. I was there to help her with luggage.

AFAIK Salisbury station is a CTA, National Rail enquiries shows PFs being applicable to both SWT and FGW at that station.

Yet FGW's own PF map shows that the route beyond Westbury to Southampton and Portsmouth is not a PF route. Ergo PFs do not apply to FGW at Salisbury and the station should not be a CTA as not all operators calling have a PF scheme for said station.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.pdf

Thanks for that link mac, I had seen that map before, but could I find it when I needed it.............   ???

This saga is getting more and more interesting. Is it a CTA.....?

Yes:   SWT are not obeying the rules.
No:    What is it ? Can SWT legally do what they are doing ?

(In my second letter to SWT I have said it is a de facto CTA  - hedging my bets !)

PF's do not aply on FGW services from Salisbury, YET! There is a good reason why platform tickets are not sold any more at barriered stations, that is because joe scrote would buy a platform ticket just to get through the barriers and then jump on a train, yes, some of you will say "well they just need to buy a ticket to the next station", which is true, but a platform ticket is 10p a lot less than the average "next stop" ticket. However, FGW will let people through who are seeing off relatives etc but this is done on an individual case by case basis.

I don't think salisbury is a CTA, they are quite rare these days but I may be wrong.

I know FGW are toying with the idea of extending their PF areas now after the successful implementation of the Central/west schemes.

What is a CTA!?

Whenever I see CTA I automatically think of the Chicago Transit Authority, who went on to have a string of hits in the 70s and 80s as just plain Chicago (though to my mind they never really surpassed their first album)

As already revealed elsewhere on the board though, I'm not very good at this acronymn business.

Compulsory Ticket Area.

Here's an idea: What about refundable, time limited platform tickets? Priced at, say ^10 - this would deter fare-dodgers from attempting to use a 10p platform ticket for travel.

Is there an admin fee for requesting a refund on an unused ticket?  If there isn't, it could be possible to buy a ticket to the next stop and use this to get through the barriers.  Then use this ticket again to come back out and request a refund as you've decided not to travel.

At Bath there are no platform tickets and you are allowed through the barriers to see people off but there is a poster suggesting a charity donation if you wish to do this.

IMHO this is open to even more abuse than platform tickets.  i don't like these ad hoc type arrnagerments.  There needs to be a proper procedure to protect the passenger and staff from acusations of dishonesty.   What happens if the staff change during your visit to the platform, the new staff might not be as trusting and acuse you of ticketless travel, and are barrier staff not put in a difficult position re management, let too many people through and they are not protecting revenue, let too few throuigh and they are not being customer friendly.  If staff get the discetion thing wrong (as they will sometimes) it just leads to agro and annoyance.

Generally, though, that wouldn't work, as the return part of the ticket should be retained by the barrier machine on your way back out again!  ;)

I was thinking of a single.  I would have thought it would work as I've accidentally put the wrong part of a day return (the Bristol Temple Meads to Redland part) into the barrier at Temple Meads when leaving which let me through and returned the ticket.

Hmm.  I'm rather surprised at that.  ???

In the past, I've absent-mindedly put the return portion of my NLS to BRI ticket into a machine at BRI in the morning - and it's promptly been rejected, the machine telling me to 'seek assistance', while the barrier remains firmly closed!

It was quite a while ago - possibly more than a year (can't remember for sure).  In any case, I can't see you not being allowed out of the station where you start your journey.  I would have thought you could "break" or "terminate" your journey before it has begun?

Is there any way that someone arriving at Salisbury who had travelled from say Westbury without a ticket could be PFd at all?

Yes.

Westbury is a FGW Penalty Fares station, so you could be PFed if you travelled on FGW.  Whether SWT have an agreement with FGW to collect PFs is another matter.

SWT do not publish a map showing their PF stations (AFAIK) but Wikipedia says "This does not apply west of Salisbury...".  There is no citation and I can't verify this anywhere, so I'm not sure how PFs would apply if you travelled with SWT.

Don't you just love the complicated revenue enforcement system that privatisation has created :P

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure whether I'm correct on the first point.  Does the train also need to be a PF train or is travelling from a PF station enough?  I'm confused  ???

My understanding (for what it's worth ::) ) is that you need to have 'ticked all three boxes':

1. You boarded a train at a penalty fare station;

2. You boarded a penalty fare train;

3. You bumped into an RPI who is authorised to impose penalty fares.

C.  ;D

It was defined above, by paul7755, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6724.msg66944#msg66944 - but I've now also added it to our 'acronyms /abbreviations' page.  ;)

Wow  -  I appear to have really opened a can of worms here !

I have written to SWT again. I have asked them  to explain exactly what Salisbury station is. A CTA or not ?  and how they justify denying access to (law abiding) non travellers.

I live in Warminster, I have seen NOTHING that says Warminster is a PF station - but it appears that Westbury is (may be - possibly !).

What a complete and utter farce "!!!!

 

And dont forget the ^10 admin fee for refunds.

The simple answer I think is to continue issuing platform tickets, and make the penalties severe for anyone caught trying to travel on one.

Isn;t it a tradition of the railways that you can see off your loved ones?

The TOCs need to concentrate their efforts on sorting out genuine fare dodgers and first class abusers rather than picking on law-abiding people who just want to make the travelling experience a bit easier for their friends/relatives.

Nearly all the NSE area (and LU) had PFs well before privatisation, ITYF...

Paul

Good luck then - I tried to explain earlier that Salisbury might not be a CTA, indeed Salisbury should not be as FGW aren't operating a schme there.

Having been through all the DfT & SRA stuff on the subject it is not clear. Lots of should and may be etc etc, there is enough for me to assume that the existence of barriers and penalty fares does not require a CTA to be in force, ; conversley, it also explains that you can have a CTA without barriers! 

When 'googling' I noticed that you raised exactly the same points in a thread in RailUK just over a month ago - so I can only assume that this one is about getting a second opinion.  One of the replies there also suggested that SWT have no CTAs...

Paul

Totally agree with what you say about CTAs. What I am trying to ascertain from SWT is exactly what they are saying their "compulsory ticket area" is, if it isn't a "Compulsory Ticket Area". They seem to be imposing such an area but by not calling it one, seem to think that none of the Rules laid down by DfT apply to them !
They are allowed to set up a CTA when not all the operators operate PFs - if abnormal circumstances apply. I have asked them what these circumstances are - again, IF the area is a formal CTA.
The Rules do indeed say that barriers are not needed to set up a CTA - but if barriers are installed it becomes a CTA (or a cta ?) by default.

I didn't really post here for a "second opinion", my previous post in another forum was just a comment in an existing thread. I was prepared to shrug my shoulders and forget the whole thing until last Saturday when having been told by SWT (in writing!) that the whole world is hell bent on travelling on their trains without paying and that they are justified in their OTT actions by fighting back against these hordes - I arrive at the "offending station" to find it devoid of staff and all the barriers locked wide open !  That, I am afraid, got right "up my nose" !!!


Since I posted here I have had a lot of very useful information  on this subject from other forum members and comments from at least one other who experienced the same poor attitude of the staff at Salisbury.

If SWT want their "customers" to play by the Rules, it is only fair (fare?) to expect SWT to play by the same Rules - is it not ?

(As an aside:- 3 years ago I had a long saga with TV Licensing, who were threatening me with all sorts of dreadful things because I didn't have a TV Licence. I DID have a television and it was connected to an aerial and I did NOT have a TV Licence.
The LAW said that I did not require a licence, but TV Licensing decided that the LAW didn't apply to them and kept threatening me. In the end it took a letter from my MP to this bunch of cowboys for them to stop. I have also banned TV Licensing from ever setting foot on my property in the future, they have acknowledged this in writing to my MP.
The "little man" does win sometimes !!!)



Edit Note: As the discussion on TV Licensing went off-topic at this point, I've moved some subsequent posts to a new topic on that particular subject, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6737.0  Chris.

Welcome to the world of SWT - travelling with them is always like this.  They even have recorded announcements on their trains about penalty fares which play every so often.

I get these letters even though I have a TV Licence (all to do with my flat having both a name and a number).  You may find this website (http://www.bbctvlicence.com/) interesting where the owner has been sent threatening letters since 2006 and just ignored them.  He doesn't have a TV.  Apparently TVL haven't taken any action against them and never even visited their property.



Edit Note: As the discussion on TV Licensing went off-topic at this point, I've moved some subsequent posts to a new topic on that particular subject, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6737.0  Chris.

Firstly, Penalty Fares are nothing to do with privatisation, they were introduced by BR in 1989 across the NSE area when they realised that their stupid, short sighted "open stations" policy was being abused, BR then introduced them in the midlands in the early 90's.

You cannot be PF'd from Westbury to Salisbury as it is out of the FGW area, but plans are afoot to extend to Pompey I believe (basicly just becoming part of the SWT scheme)

I'd be surprised if regular announcements aren't a requirement of the scheme - it's somewhere in all those rules we've been reading isn't it?

My experience of SWT in South Hants is that they are pretty much normal in the way they operate the PF scheme. In the London suburbs, and some particular areas like Cosham to Fratton, passengers just take the pi$$, and the heavy handed approach there reflects that situation...  The fact that FGW sevices through Portsmouth are not PF trains just causes confusion, and a major loophole AFAICT, and the sooner they change the better for everyone who takes the trouble to always buy a ticket.

Paul

Right so meanwhile back on the thread, I think we can say...

Salisbury is not a pure PF station, so therefore the requirements from DaFT to have an arrangement to allow platform tickets or similar do not apply.

Although one could argue that as the same rules (4.8) say that you can only create a CTA if all operators have penalty fares, and as we have established here that FGW don't, then it seems there is a further issue as you can legitimately board an FGW train at salisbury with no ticket (if you are happy to pay the full undiscounted fare) and so there isn't actually a CTA, just a barriered area.

I'll try to buy a platform ticket at Waterloo next time I'm there, which I'm pretty sure is 100% PF.

In fact I might just get one for Southwark underground, where presumably there are no "less than honest" people....

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/4395

as no less than Boris is happy with them being issued there.

But the platforms are 'private', technically, and this does appear to be a loophole that allows station operators to annoy people genuinely seeing off / meeting others. It will be interesting to see what SWT come back with to moonrakerz.

So Bath Spa, for example, wouldn't be a CTA because of the one XC service (coughs, ORCATS raid) per day?

Just to clarify: The point I made earlier about privatisation causing confusion wasn't meant to say that private companies brought in PFs, but rather to highlight the confusion it causes when different companies have different policies at the same station (and how this becomes a loophole for fare evaders).

AIUI even if FGW made Bath Spa a PF station, it still wouldn't be for SWT, unless they also went to the DfT with a proposal to extend their area to include the route, and perhaps those odd FGW stations like Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge where only SWT call.  AFAICS the publicly available rules seem to be written for stand alone schemes, as I can't find anything about 'piggy backing onto existing areas - although surprisingly, when I looked at some of the PF warning notices I passed yesterday, lo and behold FGW's name appears there alongside SWT, Southern and FCC - even where FGW never call!

As an aside, apparently taking in the odd new station isn't necessarily considered cost effective, which is alleged to be why Chandlers Ford is not a PF station. There was too much of an admin cost to make it one...

Paul

Chris, you can in theory be charged a PF for being inside a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket - the Docklands Light Railway is an example.

However, a CTA has to be clearly marked and signposted - in the case of the DLR there are clearly worded warning posters and lines marked on the floor that define the CTA. I believe the same requirements apply to an CTAs on the mainline network.

I'm not actually aware of any CTAs at any FGW-served stations, although I could be wrong. In any case, a CTA is not defined by ticket barriers but must be very clearly marked, with signs warning explicitly that you will be charged a PF if you enter without a ticket. In fact there used to be a sign at the top of the stairs leading to Platform 2 at Bath Spa announcing, before even the days of penalty fares, "this is a compulsory ticket area". This sign however was completely unenforceable in law and complete b*llsh*t - that station has never had a CTA. I note it's been removed now!

AIUI even if FGW made Bath Spa a PF station, it still wouldn't be for SWT, unless they also went to the DfT with a proposal to extend their area to include the route, and perhaps those odd FGW stations like Dean and Mottisfont & Dunbridge where only SWT call. 
Paul
[/quote]According to the SWT PF leaflet PF's apply on SWT between Bistol and Westbury then again from Southampton, also from Salisbury, there are quite a few joint PF schemes, Reading to Guildford is one, Exeter Central and St Davids.

Then they are ahead of me, I hadn't seen the latest leaflet - I guess they have tacked onto FGW's scheme already - but I still think they can't do it off their own bat, they'd still have to get DfT approval, which admittedly wouldn't be too difficult as FGW should have already done the signs etc...

Paul

I Expect they have got DFT approval, PF's have been in place on that route with SWT since april last year.

UPDATE

I have now had two letters from SWT so far, both saying that it was a "commercial decision" to limit platform access to rail ticket holders.  My main point, clearly asked in both my letters, asking exactly what the "compulsory ticket area" at Salisbury station actually is, has been totally ignored. Letter No 3 is in "Word" awaiting completion.

The second letter from SWT does include this statement:  "Penalty Fares apply to journeys from Salisbury station when travelling with SWT and FGW".

I would appreciate any comments from Forum members on what this statement means. As far as I am aware Penalty Fares to do not apply from Warminster to Salisbury (as an example) - is it possible for Penalty Fares to apply from Salisbury to Warminster ?? Is it possible for PFs to apply to one train but not another serving the same route
Is anyone aware of a web page which clearly shows which routes/areas are covered by Penalty Fares schemes ?

Just to finish:
Letter No 1 says: "Our staff are under instruction to ............... behave........... with very little discretion"
Letter No 2 says: "Our staff will show discretion when dealing with disabled or elderly customers"

Surely, to be a "customer" of SWT you must be in possession of a ticket, so why does discretion need to be shown then?
Perhaps only elderly and disabled people are the only ones expected to want to go onto the platform to assist much younger and fully fit persons with their luggage !

Penalty fares DO NOT APPLY to FGW services from Salisbury!

This sort of reminds me of a journey I made a couple of weeks back... Boarded a service from Frome > Bristol Temple Meads and the ticket office was closed, the TVM there came cropper to vandals over a year ago and was never returned...! I made my presence known to the guard on board who couldn't sell me a ticket because his avantix was broken...

Arrived at BRI and asked to buy ticket at the barriers and an RPI didn't take too kindly to this and said I was liable to penalty fare... Unfortunately for me I was in a hurry so I was the first at the gate wanting to leave, so I explained that the guard had a broken avantix, there was no TVM/ticket office open, nor was Frome even in the PF network! He didn't appear to want to believe me until several other passengers appeared from the same service at the gate saying pretty much the exact same thing! He then accused me of being cheeky by asking for a railcard discount, then I showed him my Disabled Railcard and he looked slightly ashamed of himself and issued me the ticket I wanted ;D

Now I have another question regarding penalty fares.

I went to the cash point the other evening and withdrew some money, the poxy thing gave me ^20 note. Now I went to the ticket machine at Westbury to travel to Bradford-on-Avon and tried to pay with a ^20 note at the TVM... TVM kept rejecting the ^20 note, so I went to the next one, then I remembered they don't take ^20 for that low a fare! Annoyed at this I went and waited for my train to B-o-A. I made my presence known to the guard on the platform and said I had the funds to travel but the TVM rejected my ^20 note. He was a helpful chap and told me to jump on and he'd sort me out. Which he did, I then remembered I could have paid with my Business Credit Card which I did offer to the guard if he was short of change but he said it was fine ;D

So question 1:

Can you be PF'd if you have the funds to travel but you have too great a sum of money and the TVM says no.

question 2:

If you have a manky tenner with you as an example, and the TVM won't accept it when you attempt to buy ticket, can you be PF'd for not having a ticket if you travel?!

Assume for both questions you board in the evening and the ticket office is closed! If the ticket office was open and either of these questions applied then I would always go to the ticket office to buy ticket :)

The answer to both of those questions has to be "no", as you were not able to buy a ticket at the machine. However, whether you would be believed is another matter, as your story illustrates.

If however, your cash was refused but you then made it known to the official that you had a credit card then that is different. Though it's an interesting point if the only credit card you had was a business credit card and you were not travelling on business. Theoretically you have the means to pay, but you're not authorised to use it, so you should be alright (though not if you've offered to pay on board with it.)

Why not just have penalty fares everywhere in order to end the confusion of whether a particular train is covered or not?

DfT says:

"Using discretion. Authorised collectors must be given the discretion not to charge a penalty fare in a particular instance, even where the passenger is liable to pay a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules. Operators must think carefully about the guidelines they give to authorised collectors about how they should use this discretion. We expect authorised collectors to use discretion towards:

passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines or a 'permit to travel' machine, and who have enough money (or a credit or debit card) to buy a ticket but not in the form needed to use the ticket or 'permit to travel' machine;

passengers who are travelling from stations where the only ticket facilities available are ticket machines and who claim that the machines were accepting coins only, or the exact fare only, and the passenger did not have the necessary coins (unless the authorised collector can confirm that the machines were in fact working normally);"

UPDATE:
I have just had my 3rd reply from SWT - as obtuse as the previous two !

According to SWT,  FGW does have a Penalty Fares system in operation from Salisbury. They quote the nationalrail site, which does indeed say this - but this is the site that says Warminster has a Lost Property Office open until 10 o'clock seven days a week !
(During my last visit I did a little "snooping" - the Penalty Fares area at Salisbury does NOT comply with the rules of the DfT at all - only two notices on the whole station, both of which are in positions where they are highly likely NOT to be seen by most people)

I don't really know if this person is being deliberately obstructive or what, in his replies .........

He says "We would allow access if there is a good reason...... I have given the example of elderly or disabled......... this is related to the customer travelling......not the person meeting the customer" !!!!!!   
I had already pointed out that, in this case, the person would HAVE a ticket anyway ......... >:( >:(

Choice now:-
Boss man of SWT
MP
DfT
Passenger Focus
Salisbury Journal
.................or all of them !

Hmm ...

I rather think Passenger Focus are much the same as the Department for Transport, as the DfT are their paymasters - but, Yes! Please do write to all of them, and let us know the results!

C.  ;)

It might be worth writing to FGW about the penalty fare's area at Salisbury, and get there penalty fare status in writing.

I beat you to it  ;D

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2aenfqu.jpg)

I overheard an RPI telling a guard that on non PF sections, it is perfectly in order for on train ticket sellers to charge passengers the full single or full return fares and not to apply any form of discount...If they have boarded a train without purchasing a ticket when they have had the opportunity to do so. 

Obviously, some discretion is required in such cases, but apparently, those passengers who board a train without tickets, in the hope of eluding staff, but who will pay if challenged; are considered a major pain in the posterior.  The Falmouth branch is notorious for this practice, with many chancers from further afield proffering credit cards and the claim that they boarded at Truro.

I was at Bath Spa on Monday morning, waiting for son to arrive from Chippenham. I won't go into the total lack of info regarding the signalling problems ..............!!

Whilst I was waiting for about 45 mins, from about 0930 to 1015, I had a little prowl round. Bath is a PF station, according to FGW: there is ONE PF notice on the whole station; in the subway, where it may or may not be noticed by passengers heading for the Bristol bound platform.
The gates were locked open, initially there were two staff in attendance - totally ignoring the people going in and out, but they obviously got bored and soon vanished. My son informs me that the barriers were still open when I dropped him off at Bath at about 1330.

Another TOC that seems to totally ignore the DfT rules on this !

The question has to be asked - are they really serious about fare dodgers ? they seem to be doing all they can to encourage it !

Indeed, some discression is required.

Some discression is required if you're habitually going to listen in on other people's private conversations and report them in a public forum such as this.    And on the other hand, some discression is required by the folks who keep pointing out just how much of a habit this "overhearing" has become.  This could get rather out of the friendly spirit of this forum.

Just to let you know, just because a member of staff tells another one something does not mean it is true. Mess room gossip is not contained to the mess room you know with staff sometimes passing on untrue rumours as well. Even if you hear something, do not always mention it unless there is evidence to back this up or clearly state you do not know if it is true as it can cause unnecesary panic. It can also lead to people being given the wrong impression by passing on information you overheard as you may not have heard the full story.

Having said that, many things apparently overheard would appear to be common knowledge within the railway community (ie calling passengers customers, the right to charge a standard single fare with no discounts allowed when someone boards a train having had an opportunity to purchase a ticket, etc), so I do wonder why on earth a driver would tell a guard (or vice versa) such non-information.  ???

Yeah that is strange John as the full fare issue comes under NRCoC.

Do you lot imagine for one minute that this is anything more than a teeny little wind up? Lighten up chaps.   ::)

For the record, I do work for a railway company in Cornwall and I do get a lot of fun from  the indignant rejoinders of those who imagine that their civil liberties are being eroded, just because they have been caught out in some way, when asked to produce a valid ticket. 

I have been taken to task for apparently pointing out the obvious, when these threads are riddled with arcane and conflicting discussion on this and related subjects.  Possibly, there are those who take themselves a little too seriously?   ;)

Staff work extremely hard to maintain a fair and reasonable standard of revenue control and to discourage bilkers.  I personally encounter at least one minor attempt at fraud, never mind Rail Ticket based Railway Byelaw irregularities, every time I take a train out.  It is frustrating, but realistically, the only way to deal with it is to recognise that as human beings, we are all prone to look for an easy way out.

As such, on occasion, the innocent suffer along with the guilty, that is regrettable and IMO, should be minimised where at all possible.

For my part, I will not resort to 'overheard' conversations as a means of making my point, but will undertake to post as accurately and appositely as possible.  Have a lovely day, enjoy the wonderful spring weather and please do not perform the pocket slapping, ticket dance if caught without valid authority to travel. ;D

Only one? That surprises me.

A case opposite me yesterday when a young lady (who stood out as not fitting the normal profile of travellers in 1st between Swindon and Bristol) tried to avoid the TM's eye. He wasn't having any of it and asked for her ticket. She then got out several tickets in an act before saying, "don't worry, I've got some money, I'll pay for another one", without the concern that most people would have if they had lost their ticket.

The TM then asked whether she wanted to pay for a 1st class ticket, to which she said no to, so he kicked her out of her seat and sold her a ticket in the vestibule.

It was all so blatant, and the disappointing thing was that there appeared no attempt by the TM to make an issue out of it. Ironically, if she had been in standard (which was short formed and heaving) she probably wouldn't have been picked up.





   

She wasn't wearing a First Great Western name badge, you mean?   :D

I guess I must normally stand out like a sore thumb then

Likewise, though I know what Phil means.

Hmm ! perhaps I am TOO honest - I always buy a ticket and can honestly say that I have NEVER tried for a "free" ride. That is why I took such exception to myself and my wife bring treated as "guilty" by an organisation that appears to expect the traveling public to obey their arbitrary rules when they themselves are totally flouting the rules that are imposed on them to cover this very scenario.


Hmm - again ! I suppose that depends on your definition of "staff". As I have commented several times before I find on-train ticket inspection generally to be lax and the use, or should that be non-use ?, of ticket gates to be almost laughable ! Who is responsible for this - Staff ? or, Management ?
If you had a human being checking tickets, at platform entry/exit, it might act as some sort of deterrent - to spend huge sums of (MY - as a taxpayer !) money on installing barriers and leaving them open and unmanned - at the same time saying that these barriers are vital to reduce fare dodging is real Alice-in-Wonderland thinking !

JohnR's story of the "lady" in First Class is apposite. My wife was returning from Waterloo on Saturday, she had (paid for !) a First Class ticket. As soon as the guard had gone through, First Class was invaded by a bunch of well oiled football supporters since Standard was "rammed" (to use their very loud words !). The guard was not seen again !!!!

You should write to SWT to complain. They need to know when things like this happen.

But, at the same time as you sound off, put yourself in the position of the SWT guard... How would you fancy your chances tackling said bunch of drunk football supporters and trying to move them into overcrowded standard class accommodation single-handed? Of course in a perfect world that would be possible, but guards are humans too (as people often seem to forget). Would you have preferred the guard to (potentially) get assaulted?

In which case she should be entitled to some form of refund; which writing into SWT about might achieve.

In 10 months of travelling daily on SWT I have NEVER once seen a train manager or had a ticket check between reading and wokingham.  Since wokingham is unmanned and I get off the train at Reading station and get on another one......... the temptation is endless.  I don't.

But then FGW are not much better between the two either.  There are three TM's I know who do checks - the rest, you never see on the way to wokingham but you do see them on the way back.

Incidentally when I bought my ticket at BRacknell yesterday, the machine was out so I had to queue.  For the first time in three years, someone actually wanted to see the picture part of my railcard.  I have a three ticket wallet so the way I normally work it is....

Top slot has rail card, middle has ticket, bottom has photocard from the days when I had a season (and the mug shot is much nicer).  The photocard for the rail card is always  behind the rail card with the used tickets but I've never had to dig it out before.   As I was still in work attire (for those who have met me, shock horrow I had a skirt and makeup on - fixed that sorry state as soon as on the HST!!) I suspect she thought I did not have a rail card since she asked me in a rather sarcastic/arsey way.  So I went into hastled mode (The queue was awful due to the faulty machine, the barrier man despite having a machine refused point blank to sell tickets and the 1707 to REading was imminent meaning I wouldnt have a chance to get back to the hotel to get my stuff before getting the 1750) pointing out there was a photo there that was me which suffices most people and could she hurry it up or get me a taxi if I miss my train (I know, I know but the machine was out, it was peak hour and they had ONE window open - I had gotten to the station at 16:50 - 17 minutes before my train) and had to fish it out.  Didnt even get a thank you or an apology for being arsey in the way she asked for it.

I HATE SWT - I only use bracknell coming back because client has a taxi contract with F&D and its much cheaper going to BRacknell than wokingham using their taxis.  I use wokingham in the morning and just get a rank cab.

Many guards on SWT services are Non-commercial, i.e they don't do tickets. Can often be found sat leaning out the middle cab windows of a 8 car 458 operating the doors!

I HAVE written to SWT to complain (not about this incident) and the responses I have had, have been - to be blunt, absolutely disgraceful ! What I classify as "bed bug" letters (qv).
I complained about their staff - this wasn't even mentioned in their first reply.
I have detailed specific questions that I want answered - completely ignored  - No,  I lie ! they say they have answered them - by ignoring them !!!!
I am about to fire off my fourth letter about the same incident - this time to the MD of SWT. I have contacted my MP as well, I am not prepared to let this one lie !


I'm sorry,  but this reply is complete cop out ! To accuse me of "sounding off", I classify as the same pathetic, meaningless responses I have been getting from SWT when I complain ! If you can't stand the heat in the kitchen.....................

 If a TOC means what it says about fare abuse it should enforce it. Your argument is the same as the motorist is now suffering from - don't pick on those with no tax, no insurance, no MOT, that is too difficult ! - lets "do" the honest motorist who will pay up for doing 35mph in a 30 zone !

Ahem.

I do accept that you are frustrated at the apparent failure of SWT to deal adequately with your complaints to them about their service, moonrakerz.

However, shouting at members of this First Great Western Coffee Shop forum about it is not going to achieve anything.  We have absolutely no influence over the decisions made by South West Trains, so we cannot be blamed for any problems you have experienced with them.

For you to respond to any helpful suggestion from any member here by calling it 'complete cop out' is not acceptable.

Please reconsider the tone of your post.

Chris.

35mph in a 30mph zone is against the law. What's being an honest motorist got to do with it? And in 2008 170,000 uninsured vehicles were seized. That was 465 illegally driven vehicles taken off the roads every day - so, patently not too difficult.

Chris,

I did consider the tone of my post, very seriously, before I posted it. I did not consider this suggestion to be "helpful".

I can only assume by his "nom de plume" that the poster who accused me of "sounding off" is (or was) a railway employee. I am afraid, to me, accusing me of "sounding off" is more of an "offence" against site rules than my saying that something is a "cop out" !
I am also accused of "shouting" which is most certainly not the case - could it be that I am criticising the Railway Companies just a little too much ? Can we have a little bit of balance here please ?

To go back to the start of this thread - It would now appear that it is quite acceptable for TOC employees to refuse access to part of a station to a pair of 60 year olds on the grounds that they are potential "fare dodgers" - YET - the same TOC seems to be unwilling to act when blatant fare dodging adversely affects one of these persons who has paid the full fare.
Yet again, I have to say (perhaps in slightly more diplomatic terms) that I find anyone who supports this attitude to be defending the indefensible.

I am not expecting that this site does anything about SWT's (or FGW's policies), not that I asked it to; however, I do not expect that a totally justified comment on this subject to be met with accusation of "sounding off" and of "shouting" by other site members. I would therefore respectfully ask that others also "reconsider the tone" of their posts .

Finally:

In effect, so is SWT's blatant disregard of the rules laid down by DfT when SWT signed up to its franchise.

Thank you for your response, moonrakerz.

The poster who offered a comment as to whether any guard on their own should realistically be expected to deal with "a bunch of well oiled football supporters" (your words) is not, and has not been, a railway employee.

In terms of 'shouting' at members here: your use of so many capitals and exclamation marks, when posting here, amounts to that.

You are welcome to criticise any Train Operating Company just as much as you want, moonrakerz - but I repeat: all of your complaints against South West Trains are best directed at them, not at us on this forum.

Chris.  :-X

No need to assume in future, moonrakerz. For reference you can find out brief details of all the moderation or admin teams by looking here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1780.0). And, in order to avoid potential conflicts of interest, Graham's eminently sensible policy is that none of us should be current or past railway staff.

"Another violation of forum etiquette is posting in ALL CAPS. This is considered shouting and is very rude, in addition to being hard on the eyes. Something may be in caps for emphasis (e.g. I did NOT want to go!), but no post should be entirely in all caps."

^ An exclamation mark is like laughing at your own jokes.^   F Scott Fitzgerald:

 :D :D

No more...............(on this subject)

My humble apologies to you Sir. I should have looked at your post of Dec 6th 2008 first.

There are certain things - like the forum agreements, and things like that - and details of the moderator team - that are "sticky topic"ed on the top of the introduction and chat board - which is the first board on the site.  That way, old posts that contain important data are kept easily to hand, rather than being lost in the sands of time.

According to the site stats, these two topics have been viewed no fewer that 9,000 times ... and I'm going to encourage anyone who's not stopped by them recently to go click on the following links for a quick reminder:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1761.0

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1780.0