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I used the Swansea to Pembroke Dock service for the first time today on a day trip to Tenby. I noticed that 2 of the 3 diagrams for the service today were pacers - im quite surprised that they make up such a big part of this service. My return journey was 2x 153's tho.

Also im surprised they can get a 125 train down the Pembroke Dock line for the Summer Saturday services, its quite narrow with lots of bends.

Last summer there was always one Pacer on Saturdays, but it was on the diagram that only went to Pembroke Dock in the morning and evening, being displaced by HSTs and limited to Carmarthen during the busier part of the day. I imagine the same is booked this year; the second (hopefully not booked!) one must have been "cosy", as it must have ended up on either the 0950 SWA-PMD or 1635ish PMD-SWA, both of which are useful for day trips and can be quite busy.

One pacer was on the 1005 from Swansea to Pembroke Dock which I travelled on. It was quite full from Swansea and completely full and some people were standing after Carmarthen.

The other Pacer would have been on the 11.00ish from Pembroke Dock to Swansea (and would have formed the 14.05 back) as we saw it when getting off the train in Tenby around 11.40ish.

The train I got back was 2x 153's - this would have been the 15.00ish from Pembroke Dock arriving into Swansea around 17.25. Im not sure where this diagram was going after this as there was a 150 on platform 1 ready to form the 1750 to Pembroke. Im guessing the 153's might have been forming the 1810ish service on the Heart of Wales line as I think units get swapped between the Pembs/Heart of Wales/Swanline services.

AFAIK the evening Heart of Wales is formed off the preceding arrival from Shrewsbury - that route swaps with Swanline a lot, but not really with anything else, except perhaps on Sundays.

Being a BH Monday, I suppose nothing is running to a "standard" diagram, and with a reasonably sunny bank holiday it must have been hard to find enough Sprinters to cover everything. I think the regular Saturday Pacer is there just to ensure there are enough Sprinters on the other journeys to double up the 153s. I've never noticed two Pacers out west on the same day though. On a hot Saturday in July or August a Pacer on the 09.50 (SO) would be nasty. I suppose it's better than a single 153, which would appear on at least one diagram on a normal weekday!

Be interesting to see the Pembs/Heart of Wales/Swanline Diagrams.

Im guessing one diagram is

0910 SWA-CDF (which is an extension of the early morning Heart of Wales)
11.14 CDF-SWA
13.10 SWA-CDF
15.14 CDF-SWA
17.10 SWA-CDF

Any ideas where that unit goes when it arrives in Cardiff around 18.15 ish?

The other Swanline diagram im guessing is;

09.14 CDF-SWA
11.10 SWA-CDF
13.14 CDF-SWA
15.10 SWA-CDF

Not sure where it goes after it arrives in Cardiff around 16.15 as the other swanlines are an extention of an Ebbw Vale-Cardiff service and incorporated into the Manchester-West Wales services.

Im guessing the 18xx service from Swansea along the Heart of Wales forms the early morning service back the next day and then goes onto Swanline.

It used to be, but it seems to be a bit more complicated now - the winter timetable some additional interworking, with the late morning SHR-SWA extended into the 13.10 SWA-CDF - so one can assume in the other direction the 11.14 CDF-SWA would lay over at Swansea and then form the 13.xx SWA-SHR. I haven't checked whether this still happens in the summer timetable, or on Saturdays.

If that interworking goes on, we have something like:
04xx SWA-SHR (I think this works off the Fishguard)
??am SHR-SWA into
1310 SWA-CDF
1514 CDF-SWA
1710 SWA-CDF


There's probably not much else for a 153 to do by then; probably back to the depot. Going by the above, it's started its day on night Fishguard work, and at Shrewsbury going by the 'old' diagram, so it hasn't been in Canton the night before.


Hmmm... I found some old diagrams that showed this one as a 150, which was used to provide extra capacity in the Valleys during the peaks. However, now this one seems to swap with a Heart of Wales diagram in the middle of the day, there'll be 153s involved on this diagram as well, so it won't be venturing into the Valleys these days. (Assuming I'm thinking it through properly - it's getting late!)


I would guess it forms other workings 'up north' the next day, and something that's been 'up north' comes down on the early service the next day. 153s are used on Shrewsbury-Crewe locals, and on the Conwy Valley in the winter, and the Heart of Wales services would be used to swap sets between Shrewsbury and Cardiff. Sometimes a 150 turns up on the morning SHR-CDF service, presumably depending on what Shrewsbury needs to send back to Canton that day. I've even seen a 3 car combination on one or two occasions - must be a nice spacious surprise for local travellers!

Last time I checked, ATW only had something like 8 153s but still they manage to pop up everywhere!

I checked and the mid morning Heart of Wales service into Swansea still forms the 13.10 Swanline to Cardiff and is advertised as a through service.  I suppose it makes sense of the Heart of Wales and Swanlines to be made 1 service where the timings fit together.

Yes the 153's seem to turn up everywhere - Ditto the 150s - they seem to be used on most services, Pembs/Heart of Wales/Ebbw Vale/Maesteg-Cheltenham/Borderlines/Conway Valley/Crewe-Shrewsbury/Swanlines.

I think there are a lot more 150s than 153's tho - I think there are 8 153's.

On Saturday the Ebbw Vale service is usually 4 cars - 2 x 150s per service- so I am wondering how on earth there is enough trains on a Sat especially when extra capacity is needed on the Pembs/Heart of Wales during the summer.

I would guess that's why a Pacer needs to go west on Saturdays. In theory, without commuters, there could be fewer 4-car formations in the Valleys on Saturdays, but those routes are increasingly busy with leisure traffic - Queen Street always seems busy on a Saturday afternoon - so it looks like it's harder to free up a few Sprinters. Before the Dec 05 change, there was usually a 3-car working to Pembroke on SumSats on the 18xx PMD-whereveritwentbackthen, which was then a key day trippers' return train, and I think that diagram would also have covered the 1005 SWA-PMD. I have a feeling it would be impractical for the Holyhead L/H set to cover a Rhymney diagram at weekends to free up a couple of 150s!

I'm wondering what operates the 'peak' Heart of Wales services. I've seen 2-car formations in past summers, but I don't remember noticing what was used last year - except for the 18.21 - I seem to remember passing a single 153 a few times on that one, and there was no sign of anything having been detached in Swansea.

I think ATW must have some sort of 153 cloning device - there seem to be as many diagrams as sets! Having said that, I used the 1514 CDF-SWA several times during the winter timetable, and a 150 turned up on a good proportion of occasions.

Ive noticed on Saturdays at Cardiff Central the Ebbw Vale Service often starts from Platform 4 and goes back out to Ebbw Vale as soon as the previous service terminates. During the week the unit often terminates and then sits on Platform 0 for the best part of an hour until the next journey.

On Sundays they seem to have 153's turn up all over the place! And 158's too!

 Ebbw Vale trains noirmally arrive into cardiff central at 31 minutes past the hour so i know on saturdays  they do tend to turn them around quickly and send them back to ebbw vale rather than shunt them out to the siding and have them wait in platform 0 for about 45 minutes or so. As for increasing capcity on saturdays i have seen that there is a rake of 4 mk2 coaches and  a virgin liveried class 57 at Canton , this could be used as it seems to be a spare set and isn't the loco hauled set that FGW hire with the class 57's for the taunton diagram serviced at canton on weekends so surely 2 class 57's top and tailing  1 of the sets be used on a weekend rhymney diagram.

It makes sense to send the Ebbw Vale trains to go straight out rather than waste an hour standing in Cardiff Central. The only problem is if the train is late arriving it will obviously be late on the next service with only a 4 minute turn around time. As it goes along the main line until just before Newport this could result in the Nottingham train being late also.

I too have noticed a Virgin liveried 57 at Cardiff recently.

I noticed this week that there were 2 153's put together to form a 2 carriage train - think this was the 11.10 Swanline which would have come off from the Heart of Wales line. Also the 17.10 swanline today was 2 x 153's.

The 17.10 is the one that interacts with the Heart of Wales. It looks like half ATW's 153 fleet was on Swanline today! That 153 tree must be in season. I've noticed that double 153s have been a fairly standard arrangement on one of the PemDock diagrams over the past year or so.

It seems that people running from Platform 0 to 4 at Cardiff is not entirely unusual on Saturdays! Possibly not planned, but useful stepping up when it's needed.

All this talk of Ebbw Vale and those 57s hanging around Canton has given rise to some thoughts. Probably of the "not going to happen" nature  8)

The Holyhead set is often visible at Canton during the day - if you see a LH set with a buffet car that'll be it. It strikes me that being a fairly unique train in the current setup, it is used rather inefficiently. Obviously it'll need some downtime for maintenance - I've no idea how many spare locos/coaches there are - but some obvious (and precedented in recent years) uses spring to mind!

- Fishguard: The Fishguard run would slot in nicely between the Holyhead turns. The evening run could go via Leckwith Loop like it used to so that it's at Cardiff at the right time for the Holyhead journey without hogging the platform. In the morning I think there's a bit of a gap between arrival and departure - a long time to block the platform. That would perhaps be useful for loco change, should it be needed, to allow the locos to be rotated/serviced as necessary (otherwise the same one would go back to Holyhead each day): photographers would like it, but not operationally wonderful. Slight drawback in that if it's delayed in the sticks, the flagship Holyhead service ends up being delayed as well. It's worth noting also that the Fishguard service runs between the peaks, so that unit probably isn't too valuable on weekdays.
- Rhymney: One LH diagram would free up a couple of Sprinters. However, a set with first class and buffet probably isn't the most suitable for the route, unless someone does a bit of shunting! There would be a set stuck at Holyhead - are there enough spares in Canton to do this on a Saturday?

I suspect that track access charges for haulage would be an issue, along with the need to retrain the relevant drivers who won't currently have traction knowledge.

Something "interesting" comes to mind re Ebbw Vale as well...Ebbw Vale services have hour-long turnarounds at Cardiff. I would guess that the arrival and departure times need to be around the same point in the hour (leading to hour-long turnarounds) in order to make things work on the single line. Swanline... also hour-long turnarounds, this time at both ends, in order to provide optimal pathing. Ebbw Vale takes 3 diagrams, Swanline 2. As both routes have hour-long turnarounds at Cardiff, if the Ebbw Vale timetable were shifted about 20 minutes earlier, it would more or less tie in with Swanline. Make a few minor adjustments, and we produce an hourly through service, still with hour-long turnarounds at Swansea for robustness, using the same total of 5 units!
There is, of course, a drawback: 153s are no good for Ebbw Vale, so we'd have to ensure no set swaps at Swansea (by timetable or last minute problem-solving), but we could always just re-swap at Cardiff when that happens. And if we retain the setup on Satudays we'd need 4 cars on all 5 diagrams (i.e. more total diagrams) - unless there's some dividing/splitting at Cardiff, along with some extra shunt moves.

Back to reality...

I like the idea of more services on the Heart of Wales and Swanline being a direct service rather than terminating at Swansea. I suppose it might be possible for the swanlines to depart Swansea around xx35 instead of xx14 but with a FGW high speed service just behind it that could be a problem. I know the 1738 departure if its late often holds up the 1748 FGW service.

It makes sense for the Ebbw Vale Service to depart from Platform 4b on Saturdays rather than Platform 0.  Nottingham doesnt seem to go from Platform 0 at all now and goes from Platform 1/2 or occasionally platform 4b.

158's seem to be used a lot on the Manchester-Milford Haven services on weekends - I wonder where they come from at weekends?

I travelled to Central Wales yesterday - 153 on the 9.16, and a 150 on the other diagram. There was a Pacer on the Swanline service (probably to maximise the use of 153s where they're needed), so the through services didn't happen, which caused a bit of confusion, and highlighted some of the shortcomings of passenger information. I had expected something to happenn because the 8.xx from Cardiff hadn't reported on LDB, and later noticed it was because a separate Cardiff-Swansea service had been entered, suggesting a swap was planned.

The 9.11 Cardiff service (arrival from Shrewsbury) was announced as appraoching platform 1, and then announced as an alteration when it was signalled into 3 ready to take over the 9.16 back to SHR. Then as it approached the signaller must have entered the new headcode for it to take over that service, and the auto-announcer forgot about the Cardiff service and announced the 9.16 as arriving at P3. So two sets of passengers were ready to board it. Cardiff-bound passengers ended up getting on (it still said Cardiff on the front), and HoW passengers crowded around the doors to ask the conductor. He didn't know about the swap, and could only assume it was going to Cardiff as normal, while everyone told him the CIS was showing it as a Shrewsbury service. Then someone (I think he turned out to be the trolley person) said a 143 was on the train coming from Cardiff, so a swap was needed; lo and behold a Pacer arrived at P1. So the conductor was a bit confused, and got on the phone to control,and then had to kick the Cardiff passengers off.

It would have been nice if someone had thought to intervene and make a manual announcement to explain what was going on, and give definite platform advice. At Cardiff they're quite good at making manual accouncements (or at least can be), but at Swansea don't really do it much, except to announce connections when London trains arrive late. If there's a swap, someone somewhere knows about it - it can't be too difficult to ensure it's announced by a human.

As the 9.16 left I think I saw a Pacer waiting to arrive on Swansea loop - that must have formed the 9.50 SWA-PMD. I hope that's not a sign of things to come this year! Coming back, I passed another Pacer on the 17.51 SWA-PMD, but that's consistent with last year. So looks like 2 Pacers to Tenby agan, along with one on Swanline.

There was a 158 on the 18.04 from Cardiff to Milford - that one seems to be a popular one (weekdays also) for 158s on occasions when they end up on the route.


That's why I suggest it's better to keep the Swanline paths and move the Ebbw Vales earlier to fit if they were to run through. The off-peak Swanline paths are about the right times to avoid problems, although on the up they can delay London trains. Not that there's likely to be a regular through service; the rolling stock needs/usage on the two routes are different, and it's sometimes suggested that Ebbw Vale is ATW's baby and thus they want to keep it as reliable as possible. The 1738 is really much too close to the FGW service - probably can't run earlier because it's providing a decent interval after the 1704, and going after the 1748 would just hold up the 1804. It would be nice if 4 cars were used on weekdays - the 1738 could do with a bit more capacity then.

Yes they seemed to use a lot of pacers yesterday on the West Wales/Swanline services.  I think the last 2 Swanline services to Cardiff at 21xx and 22xx were both pacers (I think the 21xx originates from Pembroke Dock).

Ive not seen a 158 on the Milford-Manchester route for ages apart from weekends.

Can a pacer not go along the Heart of Wales line then? That would explain the last minute swapping of units.

I doubt the crews that work north of Llanwrtyd/Llandrindod sign Pacers - they aren't really used in the Crewe/Shrewsbury area so the crews wouldn't need to be trained on them. I've also read of agreements (possibly with Howlta?) not to use them, but that could just be rumours.

I thought the last Swanline (22xx) was formed by the last arrival from Shrewsbury - it's often a 153 on weekdays - but maybe something more exotic happens to the diagrams on Saturdays.

There was also a 158 in the area on Thursday. I'm not sure which service it should have been on, because there was a bit of chaos following a bridge strike between Cardiff and Bridgend, but it ran empty through Neath around 6.45; the preceding Manchester had terminated at Swansea so maybe it was on that service. The next Manchester ended up being 2x175.

One problem with the swanline is that they  stop at all stations. A better idea would be to reduce journeys times by running the swanline service non-stop between Bridgend & Port Talbot and have Pyle served by an Hourly Manchester service.

Also this would mean that if journey times were reduced then maybe swanline services could be increased to hourly.

Also i do know that are plans to extend the Ebbw Vale services through to Maesteg once the loop at Tondu has been sorted.

Pyle is the only station between Bridgend and Port Talbot so would they save that much time?

Interesting about the Maesteg-Ebbw Vale Service. Never undestood why Maesteg and Cardiff- Gloucester were combined in the first place as Maesteg was always a valley line service?

I don't think Maesteg was officially part of Valley Lines - they just ran jointly operated through services. When they stopped running through there were some comments about the lack of through service to Queen St. It probably makes sense from a reliability point of view not to run through between Maesteg and the Valleys, in order to keep Platforms 6/7, with the constant flow of local trains, separate from the rest of the network. It also makes sense to run through to either Ebbw Vale or Gloucester in order to reduce terminating/shunting services in Plats 0-4. Running to Gloucester also provides a convenient through link to Newport.

Ebbw Vale and Maesteg are both suited to 150s, and both use the main lines, so a through service would make sense. Perhaps Chelt/Glos-Swanline would work in order to make them both hourly - both ends of the journey serve local stations that could do with an hourly service, ideally.

One suggestion I saw in some report in the last few years (completely forgotten what the report was!) was to cut Swanline to Port Talbot - Swansea, on the basis that when Tondu loop is completed there'll be more trains between Cardiff and Bridgend anyway. PT-Swansea could be made hourly using the existing two diagrams, but with a 25ish minute journey the turnarounds would be quite tight, and it would be difficult to make good connections at PTA with that constraint. If that were to happen Pyle would be transferred to the Manchester service.

Going back to the original post, I saw that the afternoon Pembroke Dock service was cancelled at Carmarthen yesterday because of a lack of train crew. It seems to happen once each summer - fortunately not a "key" weekend this time, unlike some years! They probably don't train too many Swansea crews on the route for the purpose of 2 turns a week for a third of the year.

I heard a rumour about the swanline being Swansea-Port Talbot but cant see that happening. People arent going to want to catch a train from Baglan to Cardiff and have to change at Port Talbot. The advantage at the moment is there are direct services to Swansea, Cardiff plus major towns Bridgend, Port Talbot and Neath from these small stations in both directions every 2 hours. The Manchesters can be used to suppliment this at peak times. 

Also I cant see Pyle or other swanline stops being a regular stop on the Manchester as this is a semi fast service which is why generally it only calls at Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend between Swansea-Cardiff just like the London trains do. It would take forever to get to Manchester if it called at small stations, apart from peak time.

I noticed 2x 150s on the last Pembroke Dock service tonight. Lots of random units being used on that service recently.

I saw that Pyle stops were added to some of the down Manchesters recently (1604 and 1804 CDF), giving it an hourly service during the early evening. With slight cuts to the longer dwell times at Swansea (and Cardiff on the down), if might be possible to give it a two-hourly stop to supplement the 2-hourly all stations until someone pays for them to go hourly. Pyle is quite a big place and could do with an hourly service of some sort even if the smaller stops have to wait a bit longer for a proper local hourly service. I note that on Sundays Pyle now has a 2-hourly service, but the others have lost the previous twice daily service, which ran at somewhat useless times for local journeys (e.g. an afternoon in Cardiff wasn't possible).

I have a feeling that terminating Swanline at PTA would just encourage local passengers to use Neath and Port Talbot instead. (No doubt the current infrequent service does the same.) Healthy numbers seem to use the Swanline stops during the peaks, but for real growth a decent frequency and through service is needed.

I think one of the reasons for the PTA-SWA idea was that it would provide paths for the half-hourly Maesteg service when Tondu has its loop. Having to fit the turnarounds in the platforms at Port Talbot, and fit the stopping service in between faster trains, would make it very difficult to time for good connections.
If they really have to terminate something short of Cardiff, I'd have thought a better option would be to terminate the second Maesteg each hour in the little-used bay at Bridgend - seems much more logical bearing in mind that it wouldn't take up a through platform, and being a half-hourly service, missed connections would be less of a problem, and there would still be an hourly through journey opportunity. Similarly, if Swanline ever becomes half hourly (!) one each hour might then terminate short. (Actually, I'd quite like them to redouble Gowerton, re-open Cockett and provide an additional local service to Llanelli, using the rolling stock magic wand - a proper local service across South Wales.  ;) Having said all these aspirations, I have to say that, compared to what I know of some of the FGW West areas, we already have quite a good local service in some respects. )

Yeah I guess - Pyle is quite a big place compaired to Baglan and Briton Ferry.  Also its quite a distance from both Port Talbot and Bridgend.  When ive travelled on the early Manchester services which call at Pyle quite a few people have boarded the train there.

When are the extra Maesteg services starting?

Noticed a 175 seemed to be working one of the Swanline diagrams today. I think it was the 11.10 from Swansea which might have come off the heart of wales line?

I also noticed a few 158's and even a 150 on the Newport/Cardiff-Carmarthen/Milford Haven services today. Im guessing this was because there were engineering works between Newport and Hereford so not a usual service.

I also saw a 153 on platform 6 at Cardiff Central so this must have been working a valley service.

Units seemed to be all over the place today! Possibly because of the blockade on the Marches - haven't checked what's going on, but they've been terminating at Newport on at least this and last Saturday. The 11.10 from Swansea would be the one that doesn't interact with Central Wales, although 175s have been known to go up there during longer blockades in order to cycle them.

If a 153 is on the valleys, I'd guess it was doing Coryton/Radyr, which I suspect is the only route that would cope with it at busier times, and I wouldn't have thought the 153s would be passed for the "proper" valleys, or signed by the Treherbert/Rhymney drivers. Last year during the Royal Welsh week they appeared on the Coryton/Radyr route, obviously as a means of cascading Pacers to 150 diagrams to free up 150s for the Heart of Wales.

Coming back form Tenby, the 1700 (1635? from PMD) was a 143 - fortunately not as busy as it would be in the holidays. Passed two other Pacers (another 143 and a  142 I think) on the way back - so all three ATW Pembroke diagrams (excluding the first/last expresses) covered by a Pacer! Passed a 150 at Llanelli on the 1821 SWA-SHR so I'm wondering where all the 153s were! Perhaps they paired them all up and concentrated them on the two HoW/Swanline hybrid diagrams and Conwy Valley (along with that Valleys one!), or maybe just had very low availability.

A Pacer is quite good for views, compared to a 150 with its pillars or a 153 with the low seats, but the bounciness can't leave a great impression on tourists! What with the jointed track, curves and gradients I noticed the "liveliness" much more than I do on the routes where I normally experience Pacers. It was a bit of a novelty but someone of a nervous disposition who isn't used to it might have been a bit alarmed by some of the shaking and swaying in places.

In the morning the one that normally runs PMD-Manchester (today must have been NWP) was a 158. I saw another 158 in the evening (1705 from SWA to MFH) - I assume a second one as off top of head, assuming turnbacks at Newport, it didn't seem to trace back to the morning one.

Re Maesteg, I had a look on Google - a lot of the articles are a bit dated, but some from about a year ago suggest 2012, with the additional services initially terminating at Bridgend.

Im not sure where the 153's were - saw 1 on the valleys and 1 or 2 might have been on the other swanline.

I was looking at the 153 and thinking it isnt all that smaller than a 2 car pacer really - although im not sure how many can be seated in a pacer compaired to a 153. So im guessing 153's can cope with some of the routes, even at busier times. They seem quite long for a 1 car train.

The Manchester services were terminating in Newport so would stay there for around half an hour and then form the next Milford/Carmarthen service back. The Holyheads were starting at Hereford, a bit pointless having just Cardiff-Newport when there are already plenty of trains going to Newport.

Yeah a pacer isnt ideal between Carmarthen and Tenby - ive noticed Pacers seem to be used more and more on this service whilst the 153's and 150's are used on Swanline/Heart of Wales.

Last night the final Swansea- Cardiff service which leaves Swansea at 22xx was a 153. I noticed this as I live near the railway line so saw it pass. I travelled on this service on Friday night (2232 from Swansea) and it was a 150.  Not sure where this unit comes from?

On weekdays the 2232 is often a 153, and I think it's formed by the working from Shrewsbury. I don't know about Saturdays.

The first up Swanline service, from Carmarthen, is usually a 175 on weekdays at least, and seems to sit in the sidings at Cardiff West and then form the 09.20 to Holyhead. Yesterday, assuming it's similar on Saturdays, without the Holyheads running, it must have just gone on to form the 09.14 Swanline etc.

A 153 is 23m long and a Pacer car is about 15 or 16m, so a set is about 10m longer than a 153, so a bit more space (which might be critical on many valley routes on a Saturday afternoon compared to a 153 working alone) but not a vast difference. The 153s have very little space between seats, so maybe that adds to the total number of seats as well. So a 153 can't be much smaller in terms of number of seats than a Pacer, but the vestibules and gangways are also smaller than on a Pacer, so a 153 is not as good for standing passengers. It's worth noting that with fairly narrow end doors, and fairly slow door operation, a 153 is not ideal for local services like the valleys, which could affect timekeeping, but then a Pacer's door layout is not hugely efficient either, compared to a 150.

The relative shortness of a Pacer, compared to another 2 car unit, is one reason why I'm concerned about them appearing on the busier Tenby diagrams. It was fine yesterday, but come the busiest days in July/August it could be tight. Last year it was just the lightest diagram that had the Pacer.

Ive noticed the first Swanline (0710 off Swansea which originates from Carmarthen) is a 175 - I guessed this would form the 0920 Holyhead.  Are the Holyhead services generally all 175's now on weekdays at least?

The 2232 Swanline im guessing forms the next days 08xx from Cardiff-Swanline-Heart of Wales line service which ends up in Shrewbury at 13xx.

Good point about yesterday's 0914 Swanline probably being that unit that would normally work Holyhead. Have to see if the same thing happens next Saturday. It would make sense as perhaps whatever would normally run the 0914 Swanline (a 150 I think) was in use elsewhere or out of service.

Its interesting that the 1900 fast service and 1910 stopping service from Swansea effectively swap around. I could understand them swapping it when the 1900 went to Cheltenham but now both units terminate at Cardiff it doesnt seem much point to use the 150 on the fast train. Also the 2000 from Swansea goes to Chester which is the only direct service West of Cardiff - Im guessing this is a way of terminating the unit at Chester rather than Manchester tho since the depot for 175's is there. That particular unit could end up on the Holyhead or even Manchester-North Wales services the next day.

 

The diagrams I downloaded a few years ago show the 22.32 forming the ECS for the 07.50 SWA-PMD the next day. The morning workings have changed since then, so who knows...

The swapping of the 1900/1910 services is particularly annoying on Saturdays. The 1700 from Tenby sits at Carmarthen for half an hour because it's run earlier than the normal pattern from Pembroke Dock. This means passengers are told to change at Carmarthen onto the ex-Milford train that becomes the 1910, and then once they've changed there's an announcement that they're advised to change again onto the 1900. Some seem a bit confused, because the train from Tenby says Swansea on the front, and the one from Carmarthen is announced as going to Cardiff! In practice, it usually works well: the conductor on the first train often tells everyone individually to change at Carmarthen if they're going further, although they don't tell passengers going past Swansea to change again (either they don't realise it's held at Swansea or they're just trying to avoid information overload), and Carmarthen is hardly a difficult place to change. Then on the next leg there's an announcement approaching Swansea; yesterday the conductor saw the 150s waiting to form the 1900 and announced the platform. So it usually runs very smoothly, but now that they both terminate at Cardiff it does seem a bit unnecessary.

I'm not sure why the 1700 from Tenby doesn't run later: 1710 from PMD would be the usual pattern on other days; it would then cross the oncoming working at Tenby instead of Whitland. It does, however, provide good connectional opportunities for returning day trippers - possibly the intention of running it earlier on Summer Saturdays. I do have a technical gripe/query about the services crossing at Whitland to raise when I can be bothered to think it through :)

it does seem pointless the 1900 and 1910 swapping as both units as far as I know stay in Cardiff for a considerable amount of time afterwards. I think the 175 forms the last Cardiff-Carmarthen service at 23xx from Cardiff. This used to be a 150 before but now I guess is used to get the 175 back to Carmarthen overnight.

Ive noticed on a Saturday the 1900 is sometimes a 4 car and sometimes it isnt. I guess it depends on whether they want to take 2 cars off when it comes in from Ebbw Vale to Cardiff but on a Sat I think there is sufficient amount of people wanting to travel for it to be a 4 car on the 1738 swanline whilst still quite a lot on the 125 which leaves around 10 mins later.

It's a pity they only seem to use 4 cars on Ebbw Vale and thus the 1738 on Saturdays. The 1738 could do with the extra space on weekdays.

The 2315 from Cardiff on weekdays seems to be a 175, although I haven't used it during the week for a while, but on Saturdays (when it leaves at 2240ish) it's been Sprinters when I've travelled back from Baglan in recent months (before and after the May change) - it's usually been 2x150, but on one occasion was 2x153. Unless it's changed recently the 1910 is usually 2 car (but 3 yesterday :) ) - is the SX 2315 usually 3?

I can imagine the 1738 being overcrowded on a weekday as its the first service people finishing work at 5pm are likely to catch to Swansea (and Neath/Port Talbot and swanline stations) with the 17.04 being a bit too early. I imagine a lot of Bridgend commuters will catch the 17xx Maesteg service which is 3 car.

I noticed today whilst travelling home from work (by car) that what would form the 1750 from Cardiff-Manchester was a 158.  Tracing this back all day today I think this is what would have formed the 0435 from Cardiff-Manchester this morning so im guessing a 158 was available from what ran the weekends diagrams and ran this service today.

Normally the class 158's tend to be found regulary on Holyhead & Maesteg - Cheltenham services although they do make appearances on the Milford Haven - Manchester service.

I remember about 2 years ago the 23:15 Cardiff - Carmarthen servce was always a class 158 and i dont know why they bother stopping it at Pencoed etc same with the 05:40 Cardff - Milford Haven as you either have another train about 11 minutes after it stopping at those stations or maybe a later maesteg service could be run from Cardiff at 22:40

Do many 158's still go to Maesteg? I thought it was mainly 150's with a few pacers now apart from those that continue from Holyhead (so 158/175's)

I remember travelling on the 2315 a few times and it was a 150 or 158 in the past.

158s were the norm on the off-peak Holyhead-Maestegs, which then fed them onto other Maesteg/Cheltenham services, but looking at the May timetable those through trains appear to have stopped running, leaving just the morning Chester-Maesteg (was 150/158 but not seen for a while) and the evening 175. This might suggest an increase in the number of 150s going to Maesteg, perhaps to reduce 158 usage during the refurbishment.

Yesterdays 1604 from Cardiff-Pembroke Dock services was formed of a 150 and 153. This would have formed the 15.30 from Manchester Picadilly which before it would have been the 10xx from Carmarthen I think??? I wonder if the delays in the Carmarthen area yesterday morning meant this service was restarted at Cardiff Central (would have been the 11.50 from Cardiff). 

Also yesterday I noticed a pacer was running the Cardiff Bay service

I'm assuming '1604' means '1904' unless I've missed something special about yesterday  :) Interesting that they used a 150 and 153 for replacement - 3 car replacement found for a 2 car diagram, but perhaps they were already together for some other service.

Cardiff Bay has had a Pacer since at least Thursday - the 121 must have a problem or be undergoing some heavy maintenance. I wonder what its actual availability is over the year - with a 1-unit fleet the amount of downtime becomes very noticeable.

It seems that, not content with ever-increasing Pacer usage on the Pembroke Dock line on Saturdays, they're now being used on weekdays as well. The 7am(ish) CDF-PMD has usually been 153+153 over the past year (sometimes 150+153) but whenever I've seen it this week it's been a pair of Pacers! (I suspect it divides at CMN to form the other diagram.) Perhaps it's a high summer plan to minimise the use of single 153s - I don't know what the loadings to Tenby are like on weekdays in the summer holidays.

Yes I did mean 1904 - if only it took 34 Mins from Manchester to Cardiff! Ive been on a 153 from Crewe to Cardiff once and it wasnt a great journey. A 175 is much better!

Is that normally a 2 unit diagram then?

I noticed yesterday a pair of 153's were on platform 2 so I assume this was the 1710 Swanline service which would arrive around 1815. Maybe they are using extra 153's on Swanline and Heart of Wales hence pacers on Pembroke Dock. I noticed a 153 was running one of the valley line services yesterday too.

Both Pembroke Dock/Manchester workings are usually 2-car 175.

I think you said a 153 was in the valleys a few weeks ago as well. Presumably Coryton/Radyr? Maybe that's done to release the Pacers for Pembroke Dock. Just before the 121 came there was a phase when Cardiff Bay was usually a 153. I noticed 2x153 on what would have been the 1710 SWA-CDF at some point during the week, which seems odd for a weekday. That diagram must include the early SHR-SWA-CDF service, which tends to vary a lot (150+153 not unknown) as it's a chance to return stock from Shrewsbury to Canton. I'm glad they're running 2-cars on at least some Heart of Wales services now the summer holidays have started; earlier this summer there were still some single 153s, which are fine most of the time, even early summer, but the extra capacity might be useful now the holidays have started. I wonder what the 09.50 SWA-PMD is like as a Pacer now the true peak has begun.

Yes I did see a 153 on the valley lines a few Saturdays ago.  Im not sure which service the 153 was running, I saw it as I was approaching Cardiff Queen Street. Most of the Valley line services appear to be pacers but there are still some sprinters. Is the home depot for the 153/150s and pacers Canton? I know Chester is for the 175s.

Im not sure if the 1710 from Swansea-Cardiff would form the early Shrewsbury-Swansea-Cardiff service as dont other services now run through from Shrewsbury-Cardiff in the new timetable?

Are most Pembroke Dock diagrams pacers now then?

Normally the 06:42 Cardiff - Swansea - Pembroke Dock service on weekdays is  a class 150 & 153 normally this is split either at Swansea or Carmarthen, Mind you i have been on it when it is formed of 2 class 150's 7 a class 153, on saturdays it is only formed of a  single class 153

Last night however the 23:53 service from Pyle to Hereford which would have been 21:28 from Milford Haven was formed of a class 150 & x3 class 153's

I noticed a train passing last night which had lots of units forming one train - I live near to the railway line. Im guessing it was a way of moving units back to Canton for the start of a new week.

Thinking about it, the 1710 would now go back to the early SWA-SHR, which does Fishguard the night before off a Pembroke diagram, if I've worked it out right.

All the daytime ATW diagrams to Pembroke on Saturdays seem have been Pacers for most of the summer, instead of the usual 150/153 mix. As of last week (presumably relating to the start of the summer peak), I've been passing them frequently on the morning CDF-PMD service (07.50 from Swansea) on weekdays. This is usually 2 sets; I suspect it splits at Carmarthen to form the 9ish CMN-SWA which them becomes the 10.05 SWA-PMD etc. I'd guess the third weekday diagram is still a 15x because it goes onto the Heart of Wales line the next day.

I think this is a really good idea. I travelled on the Swanline from Neath to Swansea today and its amazing how many people use this service at the smaller stations like Skewen. I think it could benefit from an hourly service and possibly some small changes to the timetable to allow it to become and Ebbw Vale-Swansea hourly service. Seems silly the units on Ebbw Vale and Swanline timetables sitting in Cardiff for nearly an hour each time before they run the return journey.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ebbw Vale and Swanline services were intentionally self-contained for performance reasons - Ebbw Vale because of the single line and its status as the new service, and Swanline because of the impact delays have on faster services. (As any user of the HST following the 1738 will know!)

An hourly Swanline service would hopefully help build up demand; two-hourly is not exactly useful for such a built-up area. I think an hourly through service would be useful on weekdays, but perhaps not on Saturdays when more capacity is needed for Ebbw Vale and in the summer on Pembroke etc.

Are Pacers still running frequently to Pembroke? Last time I was commuting there seemed to be 2 Pacerised diagrams even on weekdays, but I haven't really noticed what's been going on since the winter timetable started.

A simplistic look at it suggests that the through servcie would work on weekdays without extra stock... Currently, assumign Pacers are still going to Pembroke, there must be something like 2 Pacers + 1 153 on Pembrokes, 1x 150 and 1x 153 (nominally) on Swanline, 3x 150 on Ebbw Vale, 2x 153 on HoW (which rotate with the Swanline 153). If we accept stopping the through HoW/Swanline journeys, running Pacers to Ebbw Vale and running 153s on all the Pembrokes, we could probably use the same units as: 3x 150 & 2x Pacer Swanline-Ebbw Vale and 5x 153 overall on HoW & Pembrokes.

Hopefully once the 4 class 150's are back from FGW then maybe an hourly swanline service can be introduced, meanwhile ATW should drop the stop at pontyclun on the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline service as it regulary delays the 17:28 Swansea - London Paddington service beind it.

As for the Ebbw Vale vale service once the loop at Tondu is sorted out then the services can be extended through to Maesteg, which shouldn't require any extra units on weekdays as the services currently requires 3 class 150's

The swanline on Saturday was very heavily used in both directions, probabaly due to the lead up to Christmas, but im sure if it was hourly on Monday-Saturday more people would use it. I think its cheaper than using a bus.  I was quite surprised to see the platforms at Briton Ferry, Skewen and Llansamlet packed with people waiting. Didnt realise it was quite so well used. More people seem to use it to go to Swansea rather than Cardiff tho which is prob cos Swansea is nearer to the smaller stations (apart from Pyle).  On a Sunday they should run a Swanline service at least 2-3 times during the day. Even if it was part of the Manchester service as it used to be. I assume there werent the passenger numbers on Sunday hence them not calling at these stations (apart from Pyle)

Im not sure what is running the Pembs line now. Ive not had experience of this line since summer.  I did notice the 11.14 swanline from Cardiff was a 150 yesterday (which would have formed the early Heart of Wales - Cardiff service). That went onto Platform 1 after terminating at Swansea and would have formed the 13xx service onto the HOW line. Usually its a 153 isnt it but it was lucky it was a 150 with the extra passengers on Swanline. People were standing as it was.  I think both the Swanline's were 150's yesterday, although one swaps with the HOW line so im not sure if that was a 153? I think 150s do turn up on HOW quite a lot as units are swapped between Swanline/HOW/Shrewbury-Crewe

There was talk about the Swanline's going as far as Port Talbot and becoming hourly. In theory this could be run by 1 unit - for example

13.10 Swansea  calling at Llansamlet/Skewen
13.25 Neath calling at Briton Ferry/Baglan
13.36 Port Talbot 

and return

13.38 Port Talbot
13.49 Neath
14.07 Swansea

Be a very tight turnaround but not impossible??? Also would avoid the train having to wait around in Port Talbot as there is limited space. Cant see it happening tho, I think the Swanline will always go as far as Cardiff. It would also mean Pyle having to be served by the Manchester service at least once every 2 hours.


Why does the 17.10 call at Pontyclun? Isnt this service covered by the 17.40ish from Bridgend to Cardiff/Cheltenham? Some early morning Manchester services call at Pyle and Llanharan but not Pontyclun and vice versa sometimes, but I guess thats to additional capacity for people to get into Cardiff.

if the Ebbw Vale service gets extended to Maesteg then im guessing additional units will be needed unless they can make it from Cardiff-Maesteg and back in less than 1 hour.

 

Another thing I noticed at Swansea was the manual announcement said the fast train was going to Manchester Picadilly when the automated announcements correctly said Newport! No mention of any engineering works and people having to get road replacement transport after Newport.

I have no Idea why the 17:10 swansea - cardiff train stops at Pontyclun, same with the 05:40 Cardiff - Milford Haven service which also stops there  which is stupid considering there is a cardiff - Maesteg service which leaves cardiff at 05:50. The Ebbw Vale Vale services can be done with just 2 sets, the main problems is that  they do normally get back into cardiff central from Ebbw Vale at 31/32 minutes past the hour but they cannot shunt back out of platforms 3/4 during the daytime due to heavy congestion although i seen this done on some of the ealry morning services on a saturday.

As for the Pembroke dock services the 06:42 Cardiff Central - Swansea - Pembroke Dock service can be formed of  2 class 150's,  or a 150/153 combo although a few occasions i have had 2 class 142's  i think these split at Carmarthen. Pyle can be extremely busy during the peaks especially to Cardiff, although i think it does need a service which gets into cardiff central before 07:40 as i know of one person who catches the 06:15 Milford Haven train from Pyle to Port talbot to get the 06:48 London paddington train so that he can get the 07:30 Cardiff - Portsmouth Harbour  to get into Bristol before 08:45. I know the 05:04 Caramarthen - Manchester sits in Port Talbot for at least 3 minutes so i does have enough time to call at Pyle if it left Port Talbot at 06:58 rather than 06:02. Finally i think there needs to be a train  from Cardiff swansea which arrives into swansea Between 08:00 & 08:45

I think the feeling is that when Maesteg goes half-hourly, either 1 per hour from Maesteg will terminate at Bridgend or Swanline will terminate at Port Talbot.
Pyle is quite a bit place, and close enough to Bridgend & Port Talbot that people would want to travel frequently, but far enough away that a train would be seen as much more attractive than a bus. So I'd say it's more than ready for an hourly service. Perhaps Llansamlet as well. The others are close to bigger stations, so don't have huge catchment areas, and have low numbers at some times of day, but can still be busy and would benefit from a decent service. Still, the service is much better than at a certain town in Wiltshire!

Running one diagram PTA-SWA would be a bit tight - a minimum turnaround would be 3 minutes, but the powers that be frown upon more than a few consequetive 3 minute turnarounds. Having said that, once we factor in padding in the advertised arrival time at Swansea there probably is an average of 4-5 minutes there, but it's worth noting that a minute or two often seems to be lost (particularly on the down line) on the frequent stops around Neath. If they used 2 diagrams, they could extend to Llanelli to provide 2tph SWA-LLE - two big towns, quite close together - a proper semi-suburban service might be useful. But the extension to Llanelli would probably just recreate the tight turnarounds.
Minimum turnarounds would also be why Ebbw Vales aren't usually booked to turn in P4... which is a good reason for running them through to Maesteg or Swansea to maximise utilisation. Hourly Ebbw/Maesteg and an hourly Bridgend/Maesteg shuttle would probably be achievable without additional units, it it were considered sufficiently robust.

Most of the Manchester services have enough time for an extra stop at Pyle if a 175 is guaranteed - I don't know if they're timed for 175s or just generic timings to include Sprinters etc, but they can do PTA/BGN non-stop in about 10 minutes.

I suspect the Sunday service was cut because they were covered the first and last ATW trains only - not very useful for going shopping or whatever - so funnily enough there probably weren't too many passengers. Perhaps also to avoid having to run slow buses during Sunday possessions.

I wonder if the 17:10's extra stop was down to pressure from some group or other to provide a peak service from Swansea to Pontyclun. There might be some service requirement leading to the extra stops. I have a feeling it might be dropped in the new timetable though - might have a look later.

With only 8 153s last time I looked, I think there's an element of pot lock so 150s probably cover quite frequently if there's any drop in 153 availability. I suspect the Pacers to Pembroke might have been a summer thing to release 153s to be doubled up. During July the 06:42 CDF-PMD was becoming a regular Pacer turn, but might have reverted since then. This would presumably split at Carmarthen to form the 9:00ish to Swansea which becomes the third Pembroke diagram.

That morning peak gap into Swansea does seem ridiculous. The morning down timetable seems to be mostly about moving stock to where it's needed. The 9am ish to Milford and the HST around that time run very close together: perhaps the Milford service should just be re-timed both to serve Swanline and arrive at Swansea earlier, and then just wait for the current departure time. Through passengers who don't want the extended wait can then use the HST and change at SWA. For 9-5 Swanline commuters, the 1710 probably isn't amazingly useful either.

Another problems with the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service is that it is very busy amd is delayed by passengers truggling to get off if it is a single 153. For the last mont or so the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke dock has either been  a class 153/150 combo or a 153/153 combo. Personally i prefered the service when it  only ran as far as carmarthen then after 10 minuters turn around at Carmarthen formed the 09:00 Carmarthen - Manchester piccadily which was usually a 3 carriage class 175 and the train was always into swansea on time unlike now when it is frequently about 4 minutes late by the time it reaches swansea.

As for Melksham maybe FGW will be able to free up a DMU when the receive the class 150's from London Midland although it may be difficult to path a sprinter with a top speed of 75mph on  part of a route where most trains run at at least 125mph

Pyle could benefit from a service getting into Cardiff earlier, as could Llansamlet, Briton Ferry etc - the first service that calls at those stations gets into Cardiff at 0818.  That Swanline service is still run by a 175 I believe (0710 from Swansea) as its an extension from the early Pembroke Dock. 

I guess the 1738 from Cardiff to Swansea could maybe depart a few mins earlier at say 34 or 35 minutes past as it would give a larger gap between the Swansea and FGW high speed service plus leave a sufficient gap from the 1704.  I dont understand why the 1738 goes back to Cardiff on the fast service at 1900 whilst the service from West Wales which would normally form the fast service waits in Swansea and forms the 1910 swanline. This means we have a 150 on the fast service and a 175 on Swanline! Both diagrams end at Cardiff Central. Ive no idea why the 1900 doesnt go to Manchester (does a service from Maesteg still go there instread?). The 2000 from Swansea goes to Chester but I guess thats a means of ending the diagram in the Chester depot and it can go on a North Wales service the next day. Ive seen 175's run one of the daytime Swanline diagrams before now - think it was when there was engineering works on the Newport/Hereford line and less 175's were needed for those services.

I was thinking of padding in the timetable - I think the Swanline is scheduled to arrive into Swansea at xx20 but usually arrives a bit before that, hence sitting in Swansea for almost an hour. I wonder if it could realistically happen having services terminate in Port Talbot. There isnt much platform space if they had to wait around there.

Most of the Manchesters I guess could call at Pyle - the timetable im guessing is timed for any unit to run it and the 175's do seem to move fairly quickly when they have a significant gap between stations. There seems to be quite a bit of slack in the timetable but between Neath and PT ive noticed the Manchester services allows 7 mins whilst the FGW service around 8/9 minutes.

Yes there are still only 8 153's as far as I know. I guess currently 2 are on Pembroke Dock, 3 are on HOW/Swanline, 1 on Chester to Crewe, 1 on Conwy Valley and 1 on the Shrewsbury to Crewe stopping service. Although a 150 might run some of those services. I have seen a 153 on a Valley service a couple of times on a Saturday.

I think there are around 30 150s but they are in high demand - not sure how many are allocated to the Valley's and also the Maesteg service but we know they need 3 for Ebbw Vale (weekdays), 1 for Swanline and possibly 1 for Pembroke Dock. Also the daily Fishguard service I believe is a 150.

A few Saturdays ago they had a pacer attached to a 158 for the 16xx Cardiff-Maesteg service - they attached the pacer at Cardiff Central to make a 4 car train. Guess this was due to the extra capacity needed for a Rugby Saturday. It isnt often you see ATW 158's in the Cardiff area as Maesteg seem to be mostly 150s.

That's the 6ish from Carmarthen.
With the natural growth in demand, perhaps a 6.10ish Swanline would be useful. Presumably the 0550 SWA-PMD runs as ECS to SWA in the dead of night; perhaps a second unit could be attached to it to form an up service. It could be at Cardiff before some diagrams would have started so as far as unit allocation is concerned it would be running in marginal time. On the other hand, an additional crew would need to be provided, which might be seen as inefficient, given that they'd have to travel on the cushions to Swansea in the middle of the night to form a service that probably wouldn't be too busy.
Some stops would be covered by the first train from CMN, but as that takes the scenic route it wouldn't be able to serve Llansamlet etc. Using it to serve Pyle would be a start, and a fairly obvious option.

Running from Ebbw Vale prpbably constrains it a bit. Also with a long gap after, perhaps it's just attempting to provide the latest possible departure.
The ridiculous thing is: the 1738 leaves Neath at 1827. The next HST is advertised as departing at 1830 (haven't checked advertised arrival). There is 2 aspect signalling between Neath and Landore, and on the down line this includes Neath station... so that headway is not achievable! Unless it's changed in the last few years the first signal after neath is just a repeater (i.e. yellow/green)... so even if the 1738 leaves Neath bang on at 1827, it will be some way after Neath before the HST can be signalled in. So it can't really arrive until about 1832 (therefore leaving 1833 or 34). It's possible, I suppose, that in the working timetable it does arrive at 1832, and the advertised time is just FGW trying to provide a clockface service (most of the others leave at xx:30). Perhaps in the WTT it leaves at 1834 really; the arrival at Swansea would comfortably allow for this.
Not only that, but last time I was on the 1738, it left Bridgend bang on, and PTA marginally early... but still managed to have lost a minute by Neath (and when I checked NRES, lo and behold the HST was a few mintues late from NTH). And that's on a 150, which should have the best dwell times of the ATW fleet. So the HST has no chance of arriving at Neath on time.

Just checked the December tt... still the strange arrangement in the evening, with both terminating at Cardiff. Perhaps it's just a throwback to when one of them went to Cheltenham.


That's down to dwell times. The running time is about 6 minutes really but HSTs have 2 minutes and ATWs probably have 1 minute at BGN/PTA/NTH. Partly because of the slam doors and the door layout (but 175s and HSTs have the same layout really), and partly because the HSTs carry so many Bristol/London passengers as well as the local journeys - it takes forever for everyone to get on at Neath on certain morning trains. Notice how SWA-PAD departures have crept back from xx:30 to xx:28 in recent years - I think this has corresponded to increasing dwells at BGN/PTA/NTH from 1.5 to 2 minutes.

6.10 Swanline would be a good idea. Get people into Cardiff before 7.30am. I wonder why ATW dont run direct trains from West Wales to Bristol TM anymore. The service around 0656 from Neath used to go to Bristol TM rather than Manchester Picadilly before the standard timetable change.  The service is far better now as there often used to be a gap of 2 hours between ATW services from Swansea-Cardiff. Now we have the hourly Manchester service.

I tried to check the live departure boards online for the 1827/1830 departures from Neath but last night both were delayed and i forgot tonight.

Is there a need for a half hourly service to Maesteg then? Id have thought Heart of Wales line could extend to 2 hourly and possibly more services on Pembroke Dock. Maesteg seems fine at 1 hour??

Maesteg seems to be receiving a lot of investment - platform extensions and the Tondu loop - so someone must think it needs a better service. Swanline seems to be much lower priority; its impact on main line performance might be a factor.

It would be difficult to increase the Pembroke Dock service because of the single line. With this constraint, along with the Goweton single line and the desire to connect with London trains, the current service level sees 100% usage of the TEN-PMD section because trains cross at TEN and then sit for an hour at PMD. That part of the journey takes just under half an hour; factor in time for token exchange at TEN and an hourly service would require a painfully tight turnaround at PMD. So if you want a clockface service (or at least the near-clockface one as now) 2-hourly is the only realistic option; the summer Sat service essentially crams in an extra train by throwing out the clockface pattern and terminating one service at Tenby.

Beyond Tenby trains aren't particularly busy so the obvious option would be to terminate any extras there. This would still require quite tight occupation between Whitland and Tenby, which might not be sustainable all day, but perhaps an additional 2-hourly shuttle from Whitland bay platform at busier times...? It does strike me that commuting from Pembrokeshire to Carmarthen is not really possible unless one has flexible hours; I wonder how many people around there drive to work in CMN. (I suspect more work in Haverfordwest, which is more directly served by bus than training from Tenby/Pembroke.)

Heart of Wales would be difficult as well - 2-hourly interval throughout would be difficult to path so that trains cross at the loops (also bearing in mind the need to swap drivers at Llandod/Llanwrtyd) and would lead to long waits. There's a link on the HoW website to a document by some consultants suggesting various ways to implement a fifth through train. I'd have thought a better local service at the southern end might be more useful.

What might be useful is a more erratic through service averaging at 3-hourly, with additional shuttles between Llanelli and Llandeilo to provide a proper local service over the more built-up section. There are regular buses along that bit, which suggests that there are people travelling, and probably many more who would use the train but not the bus.

I can see how it would be difficult to increase HOW/Pembroke Dock due to timings and also availability of units to run the service.

I noticed a Pacer was on one of the Swanline's today - not the one that interacts with HOW but the other one. How often do Pacers get used on this service?

It isnt really too rare to see a pacer on the swanline, normally it is a class 143 although i have had a class 142 on it a few times. a class 153 & 150 are the normla units on it though.

When there was a 19.30ish CDF-SWA it was usually a Pacer.

One of the options given in the analysis of HoW improvements implies running a Pacer in marginal time. This option is to run an extra daytime service from each end, but terminating where they meet (with connections between the two). This suggests using a Pacer when it isn't needed for peak strengthening in the Valleys, and running it as far as the Carmarthen crews are able to take it.

Sometimes a Pacer is on the 21xx Swanline from Swansea-Cardiff which starts at Pembroke Dock, however tonight it was a 153.  I think most of the evening Swanlines are 153 as the last one comes off HOW?

Are ATW expected to get the 150s back from FGW anytime soon?

A 153 was on the 1605, which would end up on the 2135. As usual, a gaggle of passengers waiting around the doors, assuming it was the 1600 (which arrives on top of the 1605); the indicators don't seem to be set up for front/rear trains. ATW and FGW take note from Southern Region!
I would expect the 22.3x to be a 153, the 2135 to be whatever ends up going to Pemb roke, and the 1910 to be a 175 - so Swanline has quite a variety in the evening; incidentally, the service that forms the 1710 was a 150 today I think, which would track back to the morning service from Shrewsbury - which seems to vary a lot, depending on what Shrewsbury needs to send back to Canton.
I was on the 1555 Manchester, which happened to be something that is becoming rare, a 158. That would be the 1650 from CDF, which might be a bit busy as a 2 car at that time.

If ATW receives those 150s, there might be enough for an hourly Swansea to Ebbw Vale ;-) But there are probably some peak Valley runs that need strengthening.

With 4 platforms at Swansea couldnt the Pembs train depart a different platform to the 175 fast train to avoid confusion. Compaired to say Cardiff where they have 4 platforms for mainline services (not including 0 which is used for Ebbw Vale and platforms 6/7 for the Valley's and Local routes) - 4 platforms in Swansea should be plenty.

A 158 is very rare these days on the Milford-Carmarthen-Cardiff-Manchester services, except perhaps on Sundays. I wonder why the 175 which would normally form that service didnt run today? Do ATW have enough 175's to run the Manchester/Holyheads if say a couple of them were out of service? Was the service heavily used at Swansea?  Most of the Manchester thats end up as 2 car are always busy at peak time. I think a 3 car needs to be used on this service as much as it does on the Portsmouth Harbour train.

Sometimes the xx:05 Pembrokes do use P4, but often they share with the xx:00 at P3. It's convenient for passengers connecting from London trains, but does cause confusion, as they're usually unlocked just before the xx:00 arrives, giving Carmarthen passengers the chance to pile on. The CIS seems to have no understanding of top train working, or of splits (thinking of some P6/7 usage at CDF). At Cardiff, they've got around it to an extent by splittnig 3 and 4 into A and B, although some passengers still wait at the middle for 3A/3B services - but always useful for getting a seat at busy times, because one can wait near the stopping point and be on board before the masses are on.

The 1555 was quite busy, but not excessively so; it looked like every pair of seats was occupied, so many had to sit next to someone (horror!) but there were quite a lot of free seats, so a fairly healthy loading. I got off at Bridgend, but it was probably a bit cosy from Cardiff (assuming it wasn't swapped); I'm not sure which 175 variant normally forms that one. It would be nice to have 3 cars on all the 175s; since the standard timetable started (5 years ago now!) the Holyheads have taken the pressure off the Marches a bit. I haven't been up the Marches since then, but I have memories of ridiculously crowded 2-car 158s even at "off-peak" times. Generally it seems that 3-car sets are concentrated on the Cardiff peaks, but long-distance traffic creates additional peaks in the conventional off-peak times: in the end, no diagram is ideal for 2 cars.

I'd guess both 158s and 175s are quite tightly used: 158s have to be used on anything that goes on the Cambrian lines, and therefore also the Brum-Holyheads, and ideally a 158 or 175 should be used on all the Marches and other long-distance services. That doesn't leave much room for low availability.

Yes it is easier at Cardiff with 3a/4a and 3b/4b. I always wait at the end of platform 3a if im catching the West Wales service back from Cardiff! Its amazing how many people dont tho, also amazing how many people try to pile onto the terminating Portsmouth train despite them announcing clearly over the tannoy its not for public use! Actually it wouldnt hurt for FGW to extend a few Portsmouth trains to Swansea and beyond, however im guessing that would cause problems with ATW. And also would mean extra trains for FGW to run them further than Cardiff, so perhaps now such a great idea then!  ;)

I didnt realise the 2 hourly Holyhead was introduced with the standard timetable of Dec 2005. I assumed some Cardiff trains always went to Holyhead, wasnt sure if the frequency might have increased. I knew before December 2005 and the arrival of the 175's the Manchester service started at Cardiff with a few running through from West Wales/Swansea direct but ive only really used the Marches line more regularly since about 2006. Yes the Holyheads do take pressure off that line especially as its limited stop between Hereford and Shrewsbury, calling at just Ludlow mainly.

Im guessing Cardiff-Portsmouth is a busier train than Cardiff-Manchester tho and the Portsmouth train could ideally do with a 4 cars per train. Im using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service on Saturday to travel to Bath (1030 off Cardiff), im hoping it wont be overcrowded, I havent pre booked anything but I will connect off the 125 that arrives into Cardiff at 1022 so its the 8 minute connection time that bothers me if the 125 is late!

I remember not so long ago 158's used to run most of the Holyhead services from Cardiff but this appears to have changed now and 90% of them, if not all of them are 175s.

I agree 158's are not so bad on long distance, better than 150s or 153's! And ive seen them, before now, run the Swansea - Manchester service.

The south wales - Manchester Piccadily  service  is always busy and really should have 3 carriages all of the time between Swansea & Manchester.

Cardiff - Holyhead are busy but are ok for 2 carriage units apart from during the summer months when they need to be strengthed to at least 4 carriages epecially over the north wales coast.

A good idea i have come up with is to increase the heart of wales service to every 2 hours and run it through to Crewe by merging it with the Shrewsbury - Crewe stopping service. The line is very busy between Swansea - Llandeilo & Llandrindod - Shrewsbury

I think originally there was a daily Holyhead-Cardiff arriving around 10am, and an evening return journey, with W&B stabling a set at Holyhead overnight. Then at some point I think the Assembly paid for a second one, but my memory is a bit hazy on that. Then the North Wales Coast transferred from North Western to Wales & Borders, which made it easier as a the 175s were eventually transferred to W&B/ATW, and it became more convenient to run through trains regularly as the same operator would be running the Marches and the Coast.


If you are a running a little bit late and it looks like the 1030 has gone, you could try staying on to Bristol Parkway. Double check the timetable, especially on a weekend, but I think it would connect into the hourly service on the Gloucester-Westbury axis - I've used it to connect with the Brighton service, which is part of that pattern. (2 car and extremely crowded from TM!) That would save waiting for the Taunton train and making another tightish connection at Temple Meads. However, if you're more than a bit late, you might miss the Parkway connection and in that case it's better to catch the Cardiff-Taunton anyway.

The 1030 shouldn't be too bad from Cardiff - it's usually at Bristol that they become crushed. Waiting near the where front set of doors will be is of course the way to ensure you're one of the first on. I suspect at that time on a Saturday it will fill up.

I agree that Swansea-Manchester part should be 3 car. Dont go West of Swansea often so not sure how heavily used the trains are around Llanelli/Carmarthen/Haverfordwest. The North Wales Coast line does have the hourly Manchester-Llandudno service which I think is always a 3 car 175. But during Summer Saturdays I can imagine Rhyl/Prestatyn/Llandudno being very busy.

Good idea extending the HOW to Crewe. I think the evening HOW service from Swansea used to go to Crewe if I remember rightly. Although like we have discussed before im not sure if its possible for HOW to be every 2 hours.

Ah right so the Holyhead service was a bit like the Premier service that is currently running - one down in the morning and one back in the evening.

I thought about staying on until Bristol Parkway if the train is late, the 125 should arrive at 11.00 I think and the connection to Bath is 11.20, would get me into Bath at 12.05 which is around 25 mins late so not too bad.  Fingers crossed trhe 125 wont be late, it usually does run to time as it starts in Swansea and has a long turnaround time there. Its usually the other direction that it runs late.

Was thinking about the Manchester services and could one way of ensuring they were all 3 car from Swansea-Manchester be switching it to a Swansea-Manchester service. The Manchester and Milford services depart Swansea within around 5 mins of each other so its probabaly possible for the arriving service from Manchester to terminate and then run the service back again rather than continue to West Wales. Maybe the times could be slightly changed - there is a long wait at Cardiff Central on the down journey so possibly they could depart at 0000 rather than 0004?

In order for the Milford services to still have capacity perhaps and extra train every 2 hours could run as far as Carmarthen making it 2 trains per hour in total to Carmarthen/Llanelli. I guess a 150 or 153 could run the extra Carmarthen diagram.

Just an idea - could it work? Or is there something in the franchise agreement which says an hourly Carmarthen-Manchester service?

It might be possible to terminate at SWA in the hours when there's a Pembroke train anyway; that way, the through service to Milford would remain.

When the SPT draft first came out, they plan was for them all to terminate at Carmarthen, with a 2-hourly shuttle running thence to Milford. The idea to extend the Manchesters came because people complained about the lack of through trains at least as far as Swansea. Going at least as far as CMN might well be in the franchise agreement as a requirement following the introduction of the Dec05 timetable - I seem to remember it being at one of the key benefits that Arriva highlighted when the franchise started. They're usually quite busy west of Swansea (not usually as busy as furhter east) and giong by passengers on board and seat reservations there is significant through traffic. An hourly direct train to Cardiff is certainly an advantage, but 2-hourly might not be so bad.

I'd rather they didn't leave Cardiff earlier - if anything, later would be better to provide a better gap following FGW. They'd probably have to go quite a lot earlier in order to provide a suitable turnaround time; for a long-distance service there would be a significant minimum requirement. At Carmarthen (allowing for padding) a quick glance suggests they have about 15 minutes, which is probably the minimum. If they just had an hour's turnaround at SWA using existing timings, it would be a bit inefficient but could still allow for a bit of a reshuffle to make better use of the 3-car sets.

I'd like to have the Portsmouth-Cardiffs extended to SWA. At the moment they run close to the Paddingtons (very good for connections) so wouldn't be hugely useful. As an alternative, how about 2-hourly Manchester-Milford and 2-hourly Taunton-Swansea (connecting into the Pembrokes on the down). On the up it would leave 1 1/2 hour gaps from Carmarthen, so some sort of SWA-CMN shuttle might still be needed. This does, of course, mess up the standard pattern.

How's about a joint FGW and ATW service between Swansea and Portsmouth so that Swanline has an increase in service whilst creating more through journey opportunities without over stretching resources.

In regards to increasing services on HOW, simples. Llandeilo to Bridgend service using the bay platform calling at Swanline stations connecting with the hst. Could even have every other service travelling via Swansea District line and oppening a few stations along the way inluding Morriston as has been looked into recently

I don think that all of the services from Manchester which leave cardiff at 04 minutes past each hour should stop at Pyle off peak thus allowing the swanline services to leave a few minustes later from Cardiff and run non-stop between Bridgend & Port Talbot which should reduce journey times on that service from 1 hour 5 minutes to 1 hour exactly.

 The swanlines could be interworked with the Cardiff - Cheltenham services and run a hourly service and perhaps the services leaving Maesteg at 15 minutes past the hour should instead  should work via Llantwit Major.

Thisd should hopefully provide a path between Bridgend & Cardiff central on the mainline including stops at Pencoed etc for a fast service from West Wales to Cardiff via the swansea district route with a park & ride station at Llandarcy which may hekp reduce some traffice congestion on the M4.

 A service should operate between Swansea & Carmarthen every 30 minutes which can be done (just) even with the single track section at Gowerton where a loop can be installed if needed as a cheaper  temporary option to double tracking the section. Trains should  run to Milford Haven/Pemrboke Dock every 90 minutues with 6 trains per day through to Fishgaurd harbour with a new station at Fishguard & goodwick.

Now with some class 165/166 DMU's coming from FGW after crossrail & electrification maybe a few could come to ATW provided they are able to be cleared for the route  although i doubt they can be cleared for the pembroke dock branch particulary the curve at Narbeth. I deally these would be good for the Rhymney branch as i know they cannot be cleared to work north of Radyr same as with a class 158. 

If the wires do come to swansea then maybe swanline services should be worked by EMU'S to free up to 2/3 DMU's to provide capcity elsewhere on the ATW network.

I wonder if a joint service between FGW and ATW from Swansea-Portsmouth Harbour would be possible? If not I guess ATW could run the service.  Afterall it was a former Wessex service and only taken on by FGW when they merged with Wessex. Another option would be to extend the Swanlines to Bristol Temple Meads and change the Taunton service to terminate at Bristol Parkway instead of Cardiff. Swanline could then be hourly and the Cardiff-Bristol service would be run by ATW. This would provide a good direct service between Swansea-Bristol Temple Meads which I think is needed.

Changing the Swanline service to a Swansea-Cheltenham service is another option although Cheltenham run 2 trains every 3 hours I think so that would either need to be extended or the Swanline run a simular frequency of service.

I think what will form the 1605 Swansea-Carmarthen service is a 158 today. That would be the 11.30 from Manchester and traces back to the first Swansea-Manchester service at around 0645.

I hope the snow doesnt disrupt my planned trip to Bath tomorrow. I may get the train from my local station (which would involve the Swanline service!) rather than drive into town, at least that gives me a longer connection time at Cardiff for the Portsmouth train - around 12 mins I think.

Also looks like the 1710 Swanline went ahead of the 1655 Manchester which was 8 mins behind the Swanline and around half an hour late in total.

If you're using Swanline to connect with the 1030, bear in mind that one comes from Shrewsbury at 5am so some scope for delay if the snow causes problems!

There appear to have been problems getting things going at Swansea and Carmarthen this morning. When I checked very early that things were running, the early SWA-PAD was about 40 late, but recovered a lot by Cardiff because it appears to be timed to allow a diversion via the Vale. I ended up aiming for the 8.28, but the delayed 7.58 was ready to go; delay was announced as being caused by track/signal problems delaying the set's arrival from the depot. It left once the 8.28 had arrived (on time) from Carmarthen, and the 8.28 ended up being a bit late behind it. Changed at Bridgend for Pencoed and the next one turned out to be the Milford-Manchester (7.45 SWA), running nearly empty being behind 2 HSTs. Nothing on the Marches at that time.

I ended up in Cardiff and returned on the 17.38 which was... a 175!
The Maesteg service ended up being delayed; it was ready to go, had a green signal, closed the doors... and then I saw the conductor on the phone and then the doors were unlocked. The 17.35 Ebbw Vale was announced as leaving from P4, which didn't look good for the 17.38, but then they managed to magic up a 175, which arrived in front of the Maesteg and formed the 17.38, leaving about 7 late (announced as awaiting crew from another service). The 175 was useful... 2 late by Port Talbot, on time (possibly a minute early) at Swansea. Checking LDB, the Maesteg went abotu half an hour late, and the PAD-SWA was stuck behind that.

Thanks, I hadnt thought of that coming from the HOW line and being delayed. Oh well if its late or cancelled I will just have to get to Neath or Port Talbot by car ot bus and get the train there. Or if I end up getting the 11.30 Portsmouth it wont be the end of the world I guess. Wouldnt want to get a train any later than that tho.  I will certainly be checking the Live Departure Boards before travelling.

I wonder where that 17.38 175 came from? Obviously the 1900 fast train would have been that 175 as well then. That diagram would end in Cardiff. Was the 17xx Cardiff-Swansea service from Pad due to arrive on time before it was delayed behind the Maesteg train?

Well Live Departure Boards show the 05xx service from Shrewsbury as running around 9 minutes late, but due to waiting time at Swansea it should depart there on time. So i think I will take my chances with it! It just seems a lot of hassle to get the snow off the car and then drive to the station in these conditions. Hopefully they will let me buy my Cardiff-Bath ticket on the Swanline train too.

Well it all fell apart a bit this morning! When I left the house the train was shown as running to time but when I waited at my local station (Briton Ferry) there was no sign of it. Waited until around 0945 then gave up. Ended up walking to Neath which took about 35 minutes and ended up getting the 10.40 SWA-PAD service. 

The 0929 from Swansea was cancelled so the 10.29 was rather full before Neath and by Bridgend several were standing. I can only assume the Swanline service that was meant to depart Swansea for Cardiff at 0910 formed the Heart of Wales service as I think there were problems with the 08xx service from Cardiff-Swansea which then goes on HOW line. Thats the only reason I can think of why the train disappeared into thin air! I decided to go to Neath because at least there are staff there - there arent even any departure boards in Briton Ferry (yet some smaller stations like Llansamlet and Llanharan do)

It was touch and go at Cardiff whether id make the connection for Bath especially as I had to walk from Platform 1 to 3 (I assume it was late arriving on the previous journey so there was a tight turnaround hence departing from Platform 3.  The 11.30 Cardiff-Portsmouth then departed around 11.35, I think it was waiting for people from the Swansea train as they announced twice on the Swansea train the connection to Portsmouth. It lost some time between Cardiff-Newport but then made up some time and arrived at Bath around 10 mins late. Surprisingly the train to/from Bath wasnt very heavily used in either direction, it was a 3 car and quite a lot of people on board but lots of empty seats. No trolley service tho - do they not have one on Saturdays?  When waiting at Bath what would have formed the 1530 CDF-PMH service passed and that was very heavily used with people standing. Again it was 3 cars.

On the return journey the 1637 from Bath-Cardiff was around 15 minutes late, therefore it arrived at Cardiff around 10-15 minutes late. I ended up on the 1804 Cardiff-Milford Haven service which was a 2 car 150. I assume this service was re started from Cardiff hense it being a 150 and already sat on Platform 4 when they announced it over the speakers. So guess there was problems on the marches line as well?

Im grateful for ATW/FGW running an almost normal service during the weather, which is more than the local buses have! Thankfully I was able to get to Bath for what I wanted - just a bit stressed that I wouldnt get there!   

I dont know why they wont put some of these information screens at the swanline stations. Pyle should have screens as frequently there is no way to find out if the train is delayed/cancelled apart from phoning national rail enquiries. the 09:45 train from Pyle is usually late and  most of the time i have gone to travel on it has been cancelled  sometime i have either gone to travel  on the 09:43 swansea service from Pyle and double back from Port Talbot or sometimes the 09:55 Swansea - Manchester picaddily service  has made a non- timetabled stop at Pyle @ 10:20.

 I know some passengers would prefer to have the train at 10:15 instead of 09:45 and considering the Manchester train on weekdays sits in swansea for 30 minutes after arriving from Pembroke Dock surely it could be timed to leave at 09:50 with a stop at pyle and allowing the 09:10 train to be sped up by missing Pyle.

The Marches line was closed on Friday morning (seemed to be running later on) so perhaps the 175s were displaced and one ended up being available. When I saw the 1735 was being formed by a quick turn-back, I checked up on the 1748 in case the 1738 ended up being delayed; I think it had left Newport slightly late at that point, but soon enough to reach Cardiff around the time the Maesteg left. I don't know if it lost more time before Cardiff, or if they just decided to let the Maesteg out to avoid delaying it furtyher. WIth problems yesterday, perhaps the Marches had further problems today.

The Swanline service seemed very thin today. When I came home around 3pm, the up train was showing as cancelled and the down hadn't reported as leaving CDF well after departure time. The first Cardiff-Swanline-Milford arrived at Swansea around 7.30, and the second one (to Pembroke) was cancelled. The 7.10 up left Swansea just after the 7.28 - perhaps just as well, because it's usually looped at Pencoed, and they probably don't want to operate too many points - the Stormy and Pencoed loops were barely visible this morning. I'm not sure if any Manchesters had any extra stops to compensate for the cancelled Swanlines - I didn't notice additional stops, but didn't particularly look. Other routes seemed to be running, but with significant delays in some cases

When I checked for hope of getting to work, LDB was showing all the early HSTs as cancelled; I think the first one running was the 6.28. Not that I fully trust LDB; a couple of months ago when there was a bit of disruption I was on a train that was shown as 'cancelled' and it wasn't corrected until it reached Swindon! After the 6.28 there seemed to be an hourly service with the morning xx:58s continuing to be cancelled. At SWA when the 7.58 was announced as cancelled, they said it would start at CDF and connect with the 7.45, which was bang on time (a couple of minutes early at SWA as normal).

158 on one of the Maestegs today (perhaps the same diagram as the morning Chester-Maesteg where one might expect a 158?) and another one went through Bridgend at aroudn the right time to be the 1550 from CDF if a bit late.

Perhaps the Portsmouth gained a trolley later on. Thinking about it, I don't think I've noticed a trolley before Bristol, and not often after Bristol, but it's often too busy to pass through after that anyway.

I don't usually bank on the 9.11 recovering from delays. I'd assume it picks up a lot of passengers south at Llandeilo, stopping at most request stops, and it's easy to lose a couple of minutes between Llandeilo and Llanelli. It seems to have much less recovery time than the others approaching both Llanelli and Swansea in order to pick up the 9.11 path (with just the minimum permitted allowances, whereas the later ones have a lot of padding in the advertised times) and the dwell times at LLE and SWA are fairly minimal, given the reversal, although there'd be a crew change at one of the two, so shouldn't take too long to turn.

Re the 9.55 from SWA, it sits at Swansea but does connect with a later train from CMN - not sure how much time there is to connect but I think it's quite tight.

I tried phoning the National Rail Enquiries line when waiting at Briton Ferry for info on how delayed the train was or if it was cancelled - the automated voice just said that there were delays to the service!! I decided to walk to Neath as I realised even if the train turned up I wouldnt make the 10.30 connection at Cardiff so would aim for the 11.30.

The 11.10 Swanline was also showing as cancelled on the departure boards in Neath - that one doesnt interact with HOW either.  I dont think any Manchesters stopped at Swanline stations to make up for the cancelled services? The 10.55 Swansea-Manchester was showing as being around 15 minutes delayed on the departure boards at Neath.

There were lots of delays at Cardiff - the 11.20 Holyhead hadnt turned up and that starts at Cardiff, it was showing as delayed on the boards).  The Paddington service id got off at Cardiff didnt depart until after the Portsmouth train. They had said there was a fault with the heating in first class so perhaps that had something to do with it.

Ive seen trolleys on Portsmouth trains from Newport onwards, on Saturdays they often have "there will be no catering available" on the automated announcements tho.

The 1900 Swansea-Cardiff was a single 150 today so i assume the 1738 was also just 1 x 150. On Saturdays its usually 2 x 150. Maybe they used the other 150 to form the 1804 Milford service which would normally be a 175.

Pyle would definately benefit from having information screens. Its one of the busier Swanline stations and also has more of the Manchesters calling there particularly in early morning. Swanline stations seem very well used and could definately benefit from a more frequent service. If an hourly Swanline isnt possible maybe the Manchesters could call there on the hour the Swanline doesnt run, but the whole timetable would need adjusting then with them leaving Swansea up to 15 mins earlier.

The 0710 Swanline was late this morning and it was a 158 rather than 175.  I noticed a train pass around the time the Swanline would normally pass and it was a 150. This could have been the 0645 Swansea-Manchester running late??? Maybe they would change the unit at Cardiff unless they are short of 175s today.

Its been  a while since a class 168 was used on the 07:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline

I don't think a Clubman has ever been anywhere near Wales!  :P

Methinks you meant Class 158

Its been a while since ive seen one on the swanline but it must happen occasionally as 158 cover for 175's and the first swanline is booked 175 as its an extension from the West Wales train.

Appears the following been cancelled tomorrow according to ATW facebook page

Due to severe weather conditions, the following Arriva Trains Wales Cardiff - Holyhead and Cardiff - Swansea services have been cancelled for Tuesday 21st December.

 

Depart   From         To          Arrive

04.25    Holyhead   Cardiff   09.18

05.32    Holyhead   Cardiff   09.58

06.29    Holyhead   Cardiff   11.14

07.50    Holyhead   Cardiff   12.24

08.05    Holyhead   Cardiff   13.17

10.33    Holyhead   Cardiff   15.18

14.32    Holyhead   Cardiff   19.18

16.36    Holyhead   Cardiff   21.14

 

05.10    Cardiff       Holyhead 10.01

07.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  12.09

09.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  14.11

11.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  16.11

13.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  18.16

15.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  20.13

16.15    Cardiff       Holyhead  20.44

17.20    Cardiff       Holyhead  22.19

18.17    Cardiff       Holyhead  22.35

19.34    Cardiff       Holyhead  00.52

 

11.10    Swansea     Cardiff     12.16

15.10    Swansea     Cardiff     16.13

17.10    Swansea     Cardiff     18.18

 

09.14   Cardiff         Swansea  10.17

11.14   Cardiff         Swansea  12.17

13.14   Cardiff         Swansea  14.17

15.14   Cardiff         Swansea  16.17


Looks like all the Holyheads and the Swanlines that dont extend from the HOW line.

Surprised with all of the snow taht trains are even running on the heart of wales line. Are arriva stopping any of the off peak manchester trains at Pyle i wonder.

Tonight I think the 1755 off Swansea is stopping in Swanline stations.

Appears it is running almost an hour late but is 5 cars - a 2 and 3 car 175 together.

Apparently the 1900 off Swansea is running and to time - wonder what unit will form this since the Ebbw Vale-Swansea didnt run.

Some problems today, especially in the evening! It looks like some of the Manchesters were making extra stops. Information on LDB and station screens was reasonable, but not as good as it could be!

In the morning things didn't seem too bad - no cancellations when I checked LDB, and the 6.28 ran on time (a couple of minutes down by Bridgend but it's not unusual to lose time at stops and then use the recovery time at Cardiff). The first Maesteg-Cardiff (well Ebbw Vale) train, which doesn't usually stop at Llanharan, made an extra stop there today, which suggests a problem with the 6amish Carmarthen-Manchester. The CIS didn't show the extra stop; it was up to platform staff to tell waiting passengers.

Coming back... a few problems. Handled reasonably well, but someone without LDB and knowledge of the area might have felt a bit out of their depth. Some Maestegs were cancelled, so I went for the 17.39 from Pencoed to Bridgend. This was a 150 vice 3-car 175 - don't know if there was a swap at Cardiff - but didn't seem as crowded as it could be so probably fewer passengers trying to travel than normal.

The 1738 from Cardiff was showing as cancelled throughout on LDB, but On time on the Bridgend screens, so I wondered if it had been reinstated from Cardiff and LDB not updated. But a few minutes after it was due (and had been auto-announced) a manual announcement was made to say it was cancelled and Swanline stops would be added to the Carmarthen service.

So.... the 1804 from Cardiff (normally 2-car 175, usually busy, often with some standing passengers) was covering for the cancelled 1738 (150, usually busy, always with some standing) and delayed 1748 (FGW).  Because of bad conditions in the west it was to terminate at Carmarthen; the CIS showed destination as CMN but the auto-announcer said Pembrey as destination! LDB did show the extra Swanline stops, and showed it as 'delayed' because it hadn't recorded as leaving Cardiff. It actually came about 5 minutes late I think; shortly after I checked LDB again, and by that point it was still 'delayed', with a separate Cardiff-Carmarthen service showing as running, but without the extra stops showing for the replacement service. It was a 150, suggesting a replacement set... it didn't seem good when I saw that, bearing in mind that it was covering 3 services! It turned out to have some standing passengers, but wasn't crushed - a lot of people had evidently not bothered to travel. The conductor (the 'Sunny Port Talbot' one) announced it would be terminated at CMN, with road transport provided to Milford.

When I checked LDB, I noticed the 1755 up was making extra stops to cover the 1710.

Going back to Pencoed... a lot of 'Cancelled' on the CIS, including the train that should have left an hour earlier, which just clogged up the display. While I waited, around 17.40, a 175 displaying Manchester stopped on the up; it was running late so arrived I think not long before the due time of the cancelled up service. I didn't see what the up CIS displayed, but the down CIS didn't show any additional services, and LDB certainly showed no sign of any additional stops, which would mean unnecessary disappointment for passengers who are given the impression that there are 2-hour gaps.

Its lucky there are less passengers than normal travelling due to the weather conditions what with all these cancellations.

I informed 2 colleagues who were planning on catching the Swanline today that it is cancelled but the Manchesters appeared to be stopping at Swanline stations every 2 hours.

The 1910 was a 158 this evening. 158s have turned up a lot more frequently on the Miford-Manchester services in recent weeks I see.

Apparently Swanline Cancellations tomorrow as well, apart from those which come from Heart of Wales or West Wales.

Any major problems today? I made it into work today so didnt check live departure boards etc much.

I ended up on the morning Carmarthen-Swanline today. I haven't used it past Neath before, so my main experience of it is overtaking it when it's in Pencoed loop. I was wondering what they'd do with it today, as it left SWA on time and the loops are still looking unused. I was waiting to be held outside Pencoed, only to find myself was pulling into the station. Passengers on the platform seemed a bit surprised to see it arriving early. It hadn't left when I left, so I assume it waited time. I checked LDB a bit later, and the 7.28 appeared to have lost 15-20 minutes between Bridgend and Cardiff as a result. (Left CDF about 10 minutes after the stopper due so perhaps further delayed - possibly congestion). Incidentally, it was a 150 - there have been a lot of substitutions this week, as one might expect - and the Swanline stops didn't seem very busy. In some cases, no-one got on or off my carriage, but the front car looked perhaps a bit busier  (I was on the wrong side to see down the platform), and at certain stops would be nearer to platform entrances. Certainly much less busy than the one other time I've used it, when Llansamlet and Skewen were well-used. With so many cancellations perhaps many passengers are just avoiding Swanline this week, or maybe everyone was on the other car. The Swanline (additional) stops on the 1804 yesterday didn't seem particularly busy either.

The locals seemed to be running in the evening; the Maestegs and 17.38 seemed fine, but I didn't check the daytime Swanlines. The 17.18 Cardiff-Maesteg was shown on LDB as starting at CDF, but turned out to be a 3-car 175 as normal. Which was useful, because it seemed much busier than yesterday, with a long stream of people alighting at Pencoed, and a few people still standing, but with a number of free seats by that point.

The 1445 PAD-SWA was about 40 minutes late, which meant it made a perfect connection at Bridgend! It seemed to have made it out of CDF at 1734, which kept it ahead of the stopper. Other HSTs seemed more or less on time; from an announcement (wasn't really listening so not 100% sure) and hearing other passengers it seems to have been delayed by a fault with the set. It arrived at SWA just after the HoW train would have left; I don't know if there were any connecting passengers, but there didn't seem to be any announcements about connections, which doesn't seem too good, given that the service connects with Pembroke and HoW trains. Many TMs will make announcements about next connections when there are delays, which is important as SWA is an important interchange on the route and passengers would want to be reassured.

There were 153s in P1 and P4 this morning... I'm not sure where they came from or what they were doing! There was still one in P1 this evening, so perhaps it had been there all day. I thought it might be the 18.21, but it didn't look like it was in use, although I was focussing on going home and didn't look too hard.

I think a 175 is on one of the daytime swanlines today - noticed a few 158's passing on Manchester services too.

On ATW facebook page it said that there would be a very limited service on Boxing Day but not sure what these services were as thought there were none?

Today isn't boxing day ;)

A number of swanlines were cancelled today and a lot of the milford haven - manchester services were being split at cardiff with passengers swapping units at cardiff central

nearly all the services to milford  haven today that i saw were class 158's.

caos on the 16:04 Cardiff - Milford haven which left at 16:20 delaying the  16:18 cardiff - maesteg both of which were jammed to the rafters because of a 30 minute delay on the london - swansea service which  seemed to managed to make up a bit of time only to get stuck at the signals outside cardiff central because of the 2 local services mentioned above blocking platforms 3 & 4.

no idea what time the london - swansea train eventually left but some passengers should have been told to stay on the platform to wait for it as a number of passengers traveling to local stations were unable to get on the trains.

I know today isnt Boxing Day, im talking about the facebook page saying there was a very limited service ON Boxing Day.

I think the 10.55 Cardiff-Fishguard is also a 158 today - isnt that usually a 150?

Unofficially, I thought anything can be used as whatever is spare at Canton is used on the service.

Yesterday a class 175 came ino platform 4 to work the 10:55 to fishguard then at 10:50 a class 150 also pulls in  and passengers were instead put on that with the 175 supposed to being put on the 11:05 to Milford Haven

I wonder if the Manchester-Milford Haven service could work being split long term? I guess what would form the xx50 to Manchester off Cardiff instead forms the xx04 back to Carmarthen/Milford Haven whilst in the other directions the Manchester's termimate at cardiff around xx55 and form the xx40 back so a longer turnaround.

I doubt this will happen long term tho as its handy having direct services from West Wales to places like Shrewsbury and Crewe.

An idea  if the milford Haven - Manchester services were split would be to increase the cardiff - holyhead service to hourly and interwork with the cardiff - manchester service.

 This mean's that trains arriving into cardiff at xx55 from manchester would work the xx20 service to holyhead

Cardiff to Holyhead does not need an hourly service. It's time that as opposed to giving a select few places a high frequency service that stock gets used to provide a suitable service where none currently exists. Maybe a short Shrewsbury to Cardiff run may be of use but no more Holyheads. Few people actually wish to travel between North and South Wales, majority of them seek to travel to nearer places such as Manchester, Bristol etc.

I agree that the Holyhead service doesnt need to be hourly. Its not one of the most used services in my experience (could be wrong tho), Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff-Manchester always seem far more busy.

Travelled on the 12.06 from Neath-Cardiff today - it was a 2 car 175 and was a little cosy to say the least. Was a 2 car so may have been short formed as im sure ive travelled on a 3 car on this particular service in the past. The train manager had to announce over the tannoy for people to move their bags from seats as passengers were standing. As a result no catering facilities on this train most likely because of passengers standing.  It terminated in Cardiff as planned but no announcement about whether passengers could continue their journey to Hereford and beyond.

Return journey was the 15.50 FGW service but noticed the 15.20 Holyhead was still sitting on platform 2 when we left at 15.50. It was announced as delayed on departure boards but no-one had seemed to board the train. It was a 2 car 175.  On Platform 1 the 15.40 Manchester service was a 158 and departed around 5 mins late. Also the 1556 Taunton service had been cancelled.

The service from Milford Haven terminated on platform 2 behind the Holyhead train at around 1545. It then reversed around the same time as the FGW Swansea service left. I wonder why it bothered as couldnt it have departed for Milford from Platform 1 since the Taunton that would have gone from that platform was cancelled? Is it not possible for service to depart to the West of Cardif from platform 1/2?

At Swansea station today, platform 3 was being used for both the Pembroke Dock and Carmarthen services behind it. Some passengers seemed confused about which train to get onto especially since the display screens at the end of the platform didnt seem to be working.

Both the 1205 and 1605 were 153's today. Im guess until Summer it is sufficient for a single 153 to run all 3 of the Pembroke Dock diagrams?

A 153 was on one of the swanline diagrams as usual today while I think the other was a 150.

The 1555 Cardiff service I travelled back to Neath on was fairly heavily used today - no-one standing and some empty seats but all double seats were taken at Swansea - and it was a 3 car 175. I think most of the Cardiff-Milfords have been a 175 these past few days with the Cardiff-Manchester having some 158 on that section of the route, im guessing its easier to swap these with Holyhead/Maesteg/Cheltenham if they on that side of the route. I think it reverts back to usual tomorrow tho was Milford-Manchester through trains. 

I have noticed tho that despite all other West Wales trains terminating at Cardiff Central the 2000 off Swansea is still going to Chester.

Trains from the west need to go into Platform 4 at CDF (not sure if they can be signalled directly into 3) if they're to be turned back in service. If they go into 1 or 2 and then reverse, they'll be leaving the platform as a shunting move as there aren't AFAIK proper signals at the west end.

Sometimes arrivals from Maesteg go straight into 4 when they're not going to Cheltenham, in order to form a CDF-MST straight away.

Pembroke Dock trains are usually lightly loaded in winter, especially going down when they leave a few minutes after the Manchester-Carmarthen service. In the old days, pre December 05, a 153 was sometimes the only train in the hour between SWA and CMN - having seen the loadings on some of the daytime 175s I wouldn't want to see that now, but in the current setup a 153 will normally be 5 minutes (down) or half an hour (up) behind another service, so not a problem at this time of year.

I'm not sure what usually forms the 1155, but the 1055 is usually a 2 car and can be nasty on busy days, such as Fridays before bank holidays and the like. It's also bad on some Saturdays when FGW retimes to run via the Berks & Hants or whatever, when HSTs end up leaving behind the Manchesters.

I wonder if the boxing day notice had anything to do with the strike. Before Christmas there were posters saying that there would be no trains on the Valley Lines on 27th, or something along those lines.

My impression is that the Fishguard service is usually a 150, effectively operated in marginal time off a Valleys diagram. I think there was last year (not sure currently) a Treherbert service that ran fast to Radyr, allowing it to depart from the main line platforms and run via the City Line. On a few occasions during 2009 I saw a pair of 150s split (presumably shunted in off an earlier 4 car arrival from Treherbert) to form the Fishguard service.

I think when there's no Holyhead service the xx:20 path should be used at least as far as Abergavenny or Hereford, in order to relieve the Manchester service and to provide an hourly service at Pontypool. Running it to Shrewsbury or even Crewe would also help provide connectional opportunities.

I think the Swanline's terminate on platform 2 at CDF tho - although they have nearly an hour turnaround time i believe.

The 1144 from Neath-Swansea (and onwards to Carmarthen) was 5 mins late today, when it got to Swansea it had already passed its supposed departure time so left around 11.05 which was when the Pembs train should have gone. Was funny cos the conductor of the 175 was talking to the driver/guard of the 153 when they were despatching the 175 out of the station - so the train despatcher shouted to the guard to get on the train (they all laughed about it tho!). I dont know what time the Pembs train left as I left the station then, but im guessing a good 3-4 mins behind the 175.  There was also a trolley on the 153. I dont have much experience of the route myself but ive not seen one on there, mind you it was a pacer once when I used it and they wouldnt carry a trolley I doubt!

Another thing I noticed today, but im not sure if its correct, is the 175's to Carmarthen seem to be calling at Kidwelly and Ferryside (not Gowerton tho except peak) - im sure the Pembs used to stop at these stations as they are a stopping service and behind the "fast" train??

1155 SWA-MAN is usually a 3 car - but with the diagrams all over the place it was a 2 car that particular day. I seem to remember pre Dec 05 there was only and ATW from Swansea-Cardiff every 2 hours which included Swanline - plus a few extra's eg. there was a daily service to Penzance which left Neath around 12.33 ahead of the 125. Considering the Manchester trains are very heavily used at times I wonder how they managed before with mainly just 125's and 2 hour ATW Stoppers.

Fishguard is almost always a 150 when ive seen it too.

Im not sure if Cwmbran and Hereford need a half hourly service? Apart from once or twice there has never been that much overcrowding between Cardiff-Hereford on that service although they are always well used. Its mainly Swansea-Cardiff section of the route that ive seen overcrowding e.g rugby Saturdays or busy periods on weekdays/saturdays in general. Before the new Cardiff-Holyhead 16xx service they used to have an extra train to Abergavenny at 1608, this wasnt the Holyhead hour, so I guess they only needed the extra capacity for the Cwmbran-Abergavenny line during that time. I think it used to be an extention of the daily fishguard to Cardiff service, or the unit that ran the fishguard was used even if it wasnt advertised as one through service.

Kidwelly and Ferryside stops appear to be a standard feature on the Manchester-Carmarthens in the new timetable. I think it's already been done like that for a year or two in the up direction. I would guess it's to keep the Pembrokes on time. The xx:05 is stuck behind the xx:00 but needs to reach Tenby in time to cross the up train; the Gowerton single line is one section and I think the headway is actually 6 minutes - so the xx:05 has an extra minute between Swansea and Gowerton. Then there's the absolute block sections between Llanelli and Carmarthen, although stopping the xx:00 at Kidwelly and Ferryside must cancel out the benefit of making the xx:05 faster behind it, but at least it makes things a bit smoother for  the xx:05.

Coming back, the up train can't leave Tenby until a few minutes after the down has arrived, but must reach Swansea in time to connect with the xx:28 Paddington, and still have at least a bit of recovery time. Removing Kidwelly and Ferryside is probably to create some slack to help with these constraints. It looks like dwell times have gone up in the last couple of years, e.g. a proper allowance for request stops between Whitland and Tenby (which are quite busy for halts) where it looks like there used to be a 0 allowance (with stops absorbed later by recovery time) - that part of the journey is a couple of minutes longer now as a result, which seems to help with timekeeping as previously time was often lost on that stretch; dwell times at Whitland and Llanelli also seem to have gone up at some point in the last few years.

Up terminators go into Platform 1/2 and are then let out by shunt signals to Cardiff West (or wherever). If they need to turn back in a few minutes they would have to go straight into one of the higher numbered platforms. Also I have a feeling that passenger-carrying trains can't be signalled into Platform 0, hence it only being used by services that start there.

How busy are the Manchesters in the hours when there's nothing for an hour before? That might be a good guide as to whether or not a half-hourly service would be useful. I would expect there to be some call for a more regular half-hourly pattern to provide a local service over the more populated stretch aroudn Cwmbran and Avergavenny, but then there are perhaps certain other routes with more pressing needs. I would guess that when a 2-car goes to Manchester it can be busy, but a 3 car is probably not too bad. On Saturdays I believe that 16:xx to Abergavenny still exists as an extension of the 15:10 Swanline.

even when a 3 carriage class 175 is used on a mqanchester service it can be very busy

I wondered how the Pembs train was able to stay behind the Carmarthen train now Carmarthen has some of the smaller stops - Kidwelly etc. I checked and although its 5 and then 6 minutes behind I think the Pembs train is only 3 mins behind by Carmarthen. Obviously a good connection for people living in Kidwelly and Ferryside. If I use this service I tend to change at Swansea rather than risk not getting a seat if the train is busy by Carmarthen.

Yes some 175's can be busy, even 3 carriage but they prob dont have enough units to run a half hourly service. 3 trains over 2 hours isnt bad I dont think. Plus from 3pm onwards we have half hourly more or less until 6pm with the express service at 16xx. I notice this calls at Cwmbran and Abergavenny on the up - but not Pontypool and New Inn, I think an extra stop for this has been added to the 1550 Manchester.

Yes Saturday the 16xx service to Abergavenny still runs as an extention of Swanline. Im guessing its easy for this to happen since the swanline unit ends at Cardiff anyway on weekdays. Also in the absence of the express train on Saturday an extra train is needed at this time. I dont think it forms a journey back from Abergavenny to Cardiff tho so not sure where it goes then!

I hadnt realised Platform 0 couldnt terminate passenger services but now you mention it ive never seen any passenger services arrive there so services to Manchester, Cheltenham etc which are through trains couldnt stop there. It tends only to be used for Ebbw Vale now. I remember Nottingham used to use this platform a lot and for a time both Ebbw V and Notts used it but not anymore. Holyhead which also starts at Cardiff, I have seen on Platform 0 a few times too but not for ages, back in the days when most were 158's.



 

I'm not completely sure about the arrangements for Platform 0, but if it's non-accessible by arriving passenger trains, that would have minimised the need for signalling changes when the line was upgraded as a platform line.

The trains that terminate at Carmarthen have a lot of padding on arrival. The Milford services give a better indication of the working arrival time. Because of the AB sections, an arrival from Swansea would probably need to pass Carmarthen Junction (about 2 minutes before CMN) before the next train can pass Ferryside - plus a further 2 minutes to allow for the bell codes to be sent and the route to be set up for the next train to pass Ferryside.

Before the SPT, the late afternoon Cardiff-Abergavenny service then went ECS to Pontypool to form a local service to Cardiff. Since Dec05 it's gone ECS all the way back to Cardiff. The 2007 diagrams (most recent I've seen) show it as then forming the 17:38 - obviously not the case now. (Around 2006 or so, the Holyhead service formed the 17:38 as a 158, so perhaps the ECS formed the Maesteg.) On weekdays the non-HoW Swanline diagram only runs off-peak, and I suspect it is used in the valleys during the peaks, hence it often being a 150, but it sometimes seems to be a 153, which would probably need to be swapped if the diagram also forms Valleys work. (The only 153s I've seen in the Valleys are Cardiff Bay and Coryton/City. I doubt they're cleared or driver-trained for the upper reaches.)

It's intriguing that Pontypool still has a 2-hourly service; all other stations between Newport and Shrewsbury went to at least hourly from Dec 05. It serves a fairly populated area, but then it is a bit out of town.

Pontypool and New Inn doesnt seem to be very well used which is probabaly down to the limited service there. As well at the xx20 services every 2 hours I think the 8.50, 15.50 and 17.50 from Cardiff also call there which means sometimes a 30 minute gap followed by a 90 minute gap.

I wonder if they would ever incorporate the Pembroke Docks into the Manc-West Wales timetable. Since we have 2 trains more or less leaving Swansea at the same time, and now with the Pembs train running fast from Swansea to Carmarthen they does seem to duplicate each other. If they were to run say a hourly Manc-Carmarthen service with hourly extension to Milford as they currently do plus an hourly extension to Pembroke Dock.  They would need 2 additional diagrams on the Manchesters which hopefully could be 2 x 158's if there werent any spare 175s. The spare 153s could then be used for additional swanlines or Heart of Wales services or at least extra capacity on the current services. I suppose if they were struggling a pair of 153's could be used on one Manchester diagram. I travelled back from Crewe-Cardiff once and a 153 isnt bad for long distance. Better than a 150 and definately better than a pacer. There must be a need for the 2 West Wales services tho otherwise they wouldnt run them both, but if it was currently a 2 car 175 and a 153, if it was replaced by a 3 car 175 it would be almost the same capacity for passenger useage.

Summer Saturdays I saw a 153 on the Valleys but didnt notice which service it was running. A pacer is sometimes used on the off peak swanline so I guess it could be used for the valleys before/afterwards. Weekdays I guess it could go straight on the valleys once it arrives into Cardiff around 16.20. Im sure someone mentioned a pacer once being used on HOW line but im not sure.

Speaking of the 153s, one that was running the 12.05 Swansea-Pembroke was a refurbished unit with the new seats etc. So far ive only travelled on a 175 refurbished set, and havent even seen a 158 refurbished yet. High time the 158's were refurbished, some still have the old Wales and West seats/carpet.
 

Pacers sometimes appear on the Swanline/HoW journeys, but they are usually swapped at Swansea so that a 153 covers the HoW part. I suppose the alternative would be to run the Pacer as far as the Carmarthen crews' limit, i.e. Llanwrtyd/Llandrindod, and swap sets there.

The first and last Pembroke circuits are Manchester services, which is a good start. The problem would be in the up direction, where there would be a long wait to take up the Manchester path - this is fine for the morning service, but during the day it would make things very inefficient. The next step might be to extend the 1809 from SWA to PMD in lieu of the 1751, as the return journey from Carmarthen doesn't prbably doesn't need to be a 175 at that time of night, but things would need to be shuffled around quite a lot then because my understanding is that Pembroke 153 currently ends up on the Fishguard night service and then Heart of Wales the next day, which would be a waste of a 175.

I travelled on a refurb 153 in November - pity the (airline) seat spacing hasn't changed!

I was thinking that the Pacer layout might be a good basis for the successor to the 153s. The 153s are useful for rural lines and the like, where a 2-car set would be seen as a waste, but the luggage/toilet area is very tight - with a few bikes and a lot of luggage things become very cramped. And most of the lightly-loaded routes have occasional busy days, and a 153 doesn't have much standing space. And if an accessible toilet is required that's even more space taken up. A Pacer-size train, i.e. between a 'normal' 1 and 2 car length, would be less of a waste than a full-size 2-car set, but would still have a bit more space for 'flexible' areas for luggage/cycles/standing, compliant toilet etc. As long as it's fitted out for longer journeys, with decent seats and some tables etc.

Yes I think the pacer layout would be good too. Its a pity there isnt more space between the seats on 153's.  Any refurbished 158's out yet? Many of them still havent the ATW colours on them. All the 175's have and they havent been part of the fleet as long as 158's have!

A 158 was on one of the Manchesters yesterday - not really unusual on a weekend or on a Weekday recently. Could be because some 175's are out being refurbished.

I was planning on travelling to Manchester for something one Sunday but im quite surprised the Sunday timetable from Port Talbot/Neath to Manchester is so bad! According to my timetable the first direct Neath to Manchester on Sunday is the 11.43 arriving into Manchester at 16.15! Even driving to Cardiff and catching the train there and I wouldnt arrive until 12.15! Thankfully my plans have changed and im planning on a Saturday where the earliest from Port Talbot I believe is the 0601 which comes from Carmarthen via the district line and misses Neath. But it got me thinking, do people not use the trains early on a Sunday hence the poor service? Its not showing any trains on the timetable that could connect into trains at Cardiff either.

I definately think a good plan for when Maesteg becomes half hourly would be for the Swanlines to terminate at either Port Talbot or Bridgend and become hourly too. Wth the extra service between Bridgend and Cardiff there would be a 15 minute service when you include the Manchesters and London trains.  If Swanline terminated at Port Talbot, Pyle would have to be added to the Manchesters.

I noticed the 175s and 158s seemed to be used on services they wouldnt normally be used on today. The 171x from Cardiff to Cheltenham Spa was a 175 (3 car I think), so there must have been a 175 on one of the daytime Maesteg-Cheltenham diagrams today.

The 1650 from Cardiff-Manchester was a 2 car 158, which fortunately didnt seem to be that heavily used, not at Cardiff anyway. I also noticed some 158's on Maesteg-Cheltenham services and a pacer on one of the swanlines, the one which tends to be a 150, so not sure if there was a lack of 150s today for some reason. The Ebbw Vale's seemed to be 4 car 150s as usual for Saturdays. There was also a 158 on the sidings at Canton.  I travelled back on the 1704 Milford which was a 175 and very heavily used with almost every seat taken. It wasnt a refurbished set which highlighted just how in need this fleet were of a refresh!

Yesterday I was travelling from Port Talbot to Bristol, used the 0948 off Port Talbot to Paddington and intended to connect at Cardiff Central for the 10.30 Portsmouth train. Between Pyle and Bridgend the train seemed to slow right down, we were nearly 10 mins late leaving Bridgend, no information as to why given. Slow again after Bridgend, finally the train manager told us a stopping service in front was slowing us down and we'd arrive in Cardiff around 10 mins late. I knew it missed the 10.30 then. We arrived into Cardiff nearly 20 mins late, and then were further delayed by people getting onto the train going home from the previous England V Wales match. I decided to stay on until Bristol Parkway rather than wait for the 11.00 Taunton at Cardiff. Finally arrived into Bristol Parkway around 20 mins late, missed the 11.20 Weymouth service by around a few seconds, I was quite disappointed they didnt wait for passengers from the South Wales train to get over the bridge, even running over the bridge I wasnt in time. The platform staff just said they cannot hold trains, but it was already a few mins late anyway. So ended up using the Crosscountry service (which I didnt want to use) but had no choice as next FGW service to BTM was nearly an hour away. So all in all it was worth me going to Parkway as I arrived into BTM around 15 mins before the Taunton service would have, and around 15/20 mins late overall.

Everything went much smoother on the way back.  Im assuming it was either a Maesteg service or the 0910 Swanline that was holding us up. But expected us to speed up after Bridgend as Swanline makes no stops there.

  sometime if the  09:10 swanline service is delayed after it comes down from shrewsbury if teh trains doenst arrive til 09:10 or later they tend to hold it til afer the london train has gone and dispatch the swanline  about 4/5 minutes after it. This is all well and good apart from the people wanting to catch the swanline service at the swanline stations between Neath & Bridgend  who dont know about the delay unless they  contact national rail enquiries as none of the stations with the exception of Llansamlet have information screens

I know a few people who have been put off catching the 09:45 cardiff train from Pyle because  of its unreliability.

I fi have to travel around that time i rather pay at least ^1.20 more and get the swansea train to port talbot and double back on myself

One of the Manchesters yesterday - think it was the 1555 off Swansea and therefore 20.30 back from Manchester to Cardiff - was 2 x 158's. Im guessing this was meant to be a 3 car 175 so they used 2 158s to avoid overcrowding.

Last weekend I travelled back from Manchester to Cardiff on Saturday night - got the 19.30 back and it was a 158. They are used lots on weekends.

There was an event at the stadium yesterday... I don't keep up with such things and I don't know what time it would have finished, but perhaps they were expecting crowds around that time.

Yes I think Swansea were playing at 1pm so im guessing a lot of people would be getting trains back between 3.30pm-4pm.

Yesterday the Manchester and Holyhead trains seemed to be leaving Cardiff Central 10-15 minutes earlier, apparently due to essential engineering works in the Newport area. This meant the Milford/Carmarthen services were terminating in Cardiff and the Manchester's were starting from there. I travelled on the 11.55 Swansea-Cardiff which terminated at 12.45 and then went on to form the 130x Holyhead (3 car 175). 

I also notice a 153 is still on Cardiff Bay - however it was replaced by a 142 at some point yesterday.

Also one of the swanlines was a 175 yesterday - the one that doesnt go to/from Shrewsbury, this could be due to less 175's needed on the Manchester/Holyheads and to free up the 150 that would normally be used on swanline to be used on the valleys/ebbw vale/maesteg etc.

ATW seemed to swap the class 175 which was on the 09:14 Cardiff - Swansea swanline yesterday with a class 143  at some point during the day , which i saw departing from Swansea at 15:10. Also another class 143 was working the Swansea - Pembroke Dock services.

The 05:19 Shrewsbury - Llandrindod - Swansea - Cardiff service was  30 minutes late yesterday also  Also it seems a number of the Heart of wales services were delayed yesterday which wasnt helped by the 2 railtours which were also using the heart of wales line.

Finally ATW also seemed to have train crew problems yesterday as the 14:00 from Swansea to Carmarthen was acutally 40 minutes late although it was only 15 late when i saw it later at Port Talbot.

A number of the milford haven services were running to Holyhead instead of manchester yesterday and the 11:01 Cardiff - Fishguard Hbr service was  routed via the Llandore curve instead of the Swansea District Line

I noticed the early HOW/Swanline was running late. Think it was a 153 as usual.

The swanline that left Swansea at 11.10 was a 175 so it must have got swapped at Cardiff. Perhaps it went onto the 1238 Manchester service and then the pacer formed the 13.14 Swanline.  The 13.04 Cardiff-Carmarthen service was showing as delayed when I arrived into Cardiff - the announcement said it was due to a lack of available train crew.

The West Wales services into Swansea and Cardiff were only advertised as running as far as Cardiff on the departure screens and the trains themselves. If a lot of them extended to Holyhead it was seen as 2 seperate journeys so anyone travelling from Bridgend to Hereford for example would have had to get off the train when it terminated in Cardiff and back on again when it was announced as ready to board for the Holyhead service.

Maybe somebody at ATW realises how awful the turquoise is and how smart the Wales & West Alphaline livery was (it's not smart anymore though, unless the unit has actually been washed recently). ;D On a more serious note, according to some other fourm the 1st 158 refurb is out today (Monday).

If 175s are in for refurbishment, and assuming the 158 is coming out and the next one isn't yet being sent to be done it might be a good week for me to go and photo 158s. I think the Cambrian lines are shut too, meaning even more 158s should be about (unless they're all stuck at Machynlleth). My day off is Wednesday, so what do you reckon the chances are of seeing a 158 in Pembrokeshire then or on Saturday? The thing I most want to photo would be a 158 on the Fishguard, any chance of something other than a 150 there this week?

I disagree, I think the Swanline should go hourly right through to Cheltenham Spa (or maybe Ebbw Vale Parkway). (If the Swanline goes to Cheltenham, the Maesteg trains would go to Ebbw Vale Parkway instead of Cheltenham). The extra Maesteg, if there'd not be enough capacity left for it between Bridgend and Cardiff, should instead be an extention of Merthyr/Aberdare - Bridgend (via Vale Of Glamorgan) services.

I counted at least 3 class 158's working the Cardiff - Milford Haven services on saturday.

I noticed a few of the pembroke dock services were quite busy today, same with the milford haven service. Traveled to fishguard hbr  from cardiff which  got into Fishguard 10 minutes early (Dont get that often ;D )

Noticed as we passed canton that pulman rail were working one 1 of the ex silverlink/london  overground class 150's and a ATW class 153.

The swanline's were very busy today, the 16:04 was standing even though it was 3 carriage class 175113 which still han't been refurbished.

I have noticed something else with these class 175's when they were the  swanline services they keep running early, on monday when i had  175009 it ended up  2-3 minutes early and kept doing it all the way to Bridgend.

The sunny weather must be doing some good for passenger numbers. This can be a problem on 153-operated services, which are often the ones that are particularly sensitive to weather conditions. ATW is very good at not running a 153 to Tenby on a Saturday during the summer timetable, but "winter" Saturdays can be a problem when it's sunny - as I found out a few years ago on an early May Saturday. Very hot day, and I think it was a bank holiday, and guess what... a lot of passengers crammed into a 153!

The Heart of Wales line can also struggle in the not-officially-summer season because of the free travel with concessionary passes during "winter", so a sunny day generates a lot of passengers. I think the boundary for free travel has crept from May to March in the last few years as a result.

Ive noticed a 158 seems to be running the early Swanline quite regularly (0710 off Swansea which is an extension from Carmarthen I believe.) Does this go on to form the 0920 Cardiff-Holyhead?

Yes with the weather being particularly nice this week I wonder if Saturday will see a couple of pacer diagrams on Pembroke Dock which would then free up some 2 x 153 diagrams for the HOW line. Or I guess they could stick a pacer on Cardiff Bay service and use the 153 currently there for extra capacity on Pembroke Dock.

Also be interesting to see what happens on Saturday as due to the football in Cardiff I imagine the Swanlines/Manchesters and valley lines will be very busy.

It might be a bit difficult to diagram on the basis of weather reports, but might make sense to ensure that summer level capacity is provided from something like mid-April on Saturdays. Is the Bubble Car still out of action? That might reduce availability of other units for extra provision to the west, especially with events in Cardiff.

Looking at the ATW website, the HoW concessionary free travel ends this weekend. If it's warm (earlier forecasts suggested rain, but when I checked today I think sun was on offer for Saturday) that might bring out additional passengers taking advantage of the last weekend of free travel.

The 7.10 does (did?) seem to form the 9.20. Going by some of the proposed changes for May, it looks like there'll be more 'local' services west of Cardiff in the evening, in lieu of through Manchesters (haven't looked for a while so not sure), suggesting that perhaps the morning Swanline could revert to a 150...?

the 06:16 Carmarthen - Cardiff swanline service at teh moment can be a class 158/175 however, it will be a bit diffcult to get a class 150 to work it as that is used on the 07:10 Pembroke Dock - Swansea service which has had to be increased to 2 carriages because of overcrowding on the class 153.

As for the ATW class 121 i haven't seen it out since november 2010, I do susggest that ATW should go and see what Chiltern are doing with their 2 class 121  which are supposed to be getting used more regulary from teh summer when chiltren introduce their new timetable.

I used the Maesteg line today- a 158 up and back an hour later which I was pleased about as I prefer them to 150s.  There were 3 158's and a 150 on Maesteg today - think it would need 5 diagrams in total plus the 175 that does the evening peak - but not sure what the other diagram was.   Im not sure whether Maesteg really needs the proposed half hourly service either, today was a fairly busy Saturday and I had a carriage to myself on the way back - apart from 2 people getting on at Garth. Although I travelled mid afternoon when most people heading to Cardiff for the football would be there already.   I think a 2 hourly Sunday service is needed as to go from half hourly Mon-Sat to nothing on Sunday seems odd.

Manchesters seemed to be mainly 175s although what would have formed the first Carmarthen-Manchester and then the 10.30 back from Manchester was a 158. That then forms the 17xx Milford Service which is the 1910 Swansea-Cardiff swanline.  Didnt see any 153s today - all the swanlines I saw pass were 150s, possibly due to the football, also maybe 153s doubled up on the Pembroke/HOW services.  Maesteg seems to have most 158s then 150s although that could just be Saturday and the 150s are needed elsewhere on Ebbw Vale/Swanline/Valleys etc.

ive not seen the bubble car for ages either, it was out of service for a bit last summer as one saturday i took a train to the bay and it was a pacer. Last Saturday it was a mix of 153 and 142.

Im not sure why so many evening services from Manchester will terminate at Cardiff rather than form services to Swansea/Carmarthen.  It must be due to different diagrams running them. I remember the 2055 from Swansea used to run to Crewe but now it goes to Cardiff and then another unit runs the Crewe service.  This also seems to be happing from May with the 2000 Swansea-Chester service.

The evening service is probably dictated mainly by what needs to be where the next morning, especially with the mix of 2 and 3 car 175s, and some needing to be back at Canton if they've been away for a few days. If an extra 175 is going to Holyhead, that might mean some changes to diagrams somewhere. I wonder when the Swanline diagram will swap to the 175, as it will need to do at some point from May.

I'd guess the demand on the Maesteg line is usually much greater in one direction than the other. I wonder whether the half-hourly servcie would benefit at Pontyclun and Pencoed (if they don't stop the 2nd service in Bridgend bay): they would probably benefit from a half-hourly service, being reasonably big places (in terms of small towns) and within 20 minutes of Cardiff, especially Pontyclun being close to Llantrisant/Talbot Green and both having  business parks and the like as well as residential areas. I suspect, however, that there is a reluctance to hold up the main line with too many extra stops.

The 7.10 Pembroke Dock is a 175 to Manchester now, so little risk of a 153 these days!

Ive just been looking at the 3 diagrams on HOW and all 3 of them interact with Swanline at some point during the day, with one just starting as the early Cardiff-Swanline-HOW leaving Cardiff around 8am. Worked out that 2 diagrams stay at Canton overnight and 1 at Shrewsbury.  One of the units that stays at Canton must form the early Cardiff-Swansea-Pembs service as we know a unit is swapped from the overnight fishguard onto the early HOW train. Not sure if the one that stays at Shrewsbury overnight might be swapped too and go on local Shrewsbury-Crewe services the next day or if it just forms the early HOW down to Cardiff. Also I think we established the 0435 from Swansea-Shrewsbury is formed with the overnight fishguard which has been on Pembroke Dock the day before. I guess thats why a 150 sometimes turns up on any 3 of the HOW disagram and also the local Shrewsbury-Crewe/Crewe-Chester services on occasion, there arent enough 153s to go on everything.

Yes Pencoed and Pontyclun would benefit from half hourly stops but when you think other large villages such as Pyle, Briton Ferry, Llansamlet have to make do with a 2 hourly service. I think Wildmill, Sarn, Garth etc are very well served with an hourly service.  But what has been proposed is that Swanline will be hourly if the extra Maesteg/Bridgend/Cardiff service happens and trains will terminate at Port Talbot. Pyle would then no longer be swanline but part of the Manchester service. I guess it would be a nice service pattern between Bridgend and Cardiff with 1 train every 15 minutes with 2 fast and 2 stopping services, currently the gap is 25 then 15 then 20 minutes between services (in the hour when no swanline). Quite a lot of people were waiting to get on the train to Cardiff when i got off at Bridgend (1638 from Bridgend-Cheltenham) so the busy part seems to be Bridgend-Cardiff rather than Bridgend-Maesteg. Also it was after the football and also people wouldnt be travelling to Cardiff for a days shopping at 1638! So i think an hourly service to Maesteg is more than adequate.

Are you referring to the 1710 Swanline then forming the new 18xx Cardiff-Holyhead? I think that has now changed and its 2 seperate services - so I expect a 153 as usual on the 17.10 Swanline. I guess it would mess up the swanline/HOW diagrams if it had to be swapped for a 175 in Cardiff for the mid afternoon swanline (15xx?) I wonder what impact the new 18xx 175 Cardiff-Holyhead will have on existing diagrams from May - more 158s perhaps on the Manchester?

I suspect that the 153 that ends up in Shrewsbury does something more complicated to rotate the set with local services like Crewe-Shrewsbury and the Conwy Valley. I think if a 153 were used on all the 'likely' services they would need over 100% availability! Occasionally I've seen 150+153 on the morning HoW, presumably when something needs to be returned to Canton.

I'm not sure what forms the 5.50 SWA-PMD these days. The old diagrams show a set running ECS from Canton to form it and the 7.50. The 7.50 now has its own through service, of course. There is a termionating service arriving at Swansea around 19.20 which I suppose could stay overnight, but I don't remember seeing it later in the evening, and I wonder if it attaches to the 21.35 Swanline (also from Pembroke) back to Cardiff.

There are some old diagrams at http://www.prar.fsnet.co.uk/diagrams.html which give some clues, but there have been obvious changes since then.




Yes Pencoed and Pontyclun would benefit from half hourly stops but when you think other large villages such as Pyle, Briton Ferry, Llansamlet have to make do with a 2 hourly service. I think Wildmill, Sarn, Garth etc are very well served with an hourly service.  But what has been proposed is that Swanline will be hourly if the extra Maesteg/Bridgend/Cardiff service happens and trains will terminate at Port Talbot. Pyle would then no longer be swanline but part of the Manchester service. I guess it would be a nice service pattern between Bridgend and Cardiff with 1 train every 15 minutes with 2 fast and 2 stopping services, currently the gap is 25 then 15 then 20 minutes between services (in the hour when no swanline). Quite a lot of people were waiting to get on the train to Cardiff when i got off at Bridgend (1638 from Bridgend-Cheltenham) so the busy part seems to be Bridgend-Cardiff rather than Bridgend-Maesteg. Also it was after the football and also people wouldnt be travelling to Cardiff for a days shopping at 1638! So i think an hourly service to Maesteg is more than adequate.


Yes - the draft timetables were a bit inconsistent, with one showing a through service and one not. It would seem surprising to swap it during the day, really, as there wouldn't appear to be much other use for the 153 out of Cardiff. If it just starts at 18xx at Cardiff there'd perhaps be more chance of a spare 175 with a bit of juggling. Was it down to 1 equivalent set become available following refurb; I can't imagine there'd be many 158s to spare these days. If it goes loco-hauled as has been suggested, that would make it even less likely to run through from Swanline.

The 21.35 Swanline seems to sometimes be a pacer and sometimes a 150 or 153. Tends to be a mixture depending whats been on Pembroke Dock that day. Ive never seen it being 2 unts attached together I dont think. On Sundays some of the evening ATW services between Cardiff and Swansea that ive seen pass are multiple units - sometimes 3  cars - 2 x 150s and a 153 or even a 153/158/153!  For some reason there are more 158s in this neck of the woods on a weekend, so im assuming the early Monday services from West Wales must be 158s too.

I could be wrong but im assuming the 18xx (and the new fast journey down from Holyhead) will include a first class service so a 175 would need to be refurbished to include this and therefore the same 175 will be used on this and only this service?? If not and its just a fast South-North Wales with the usual trolley service then I guess a 175 that does other journeys could form it. Not sure what 175s would be spare in Cardiff at 18xx? Possibly the Holyhead-Cardiff service that arrives around 17xx but that goes to Maesteg.

Forgot to mention that all 3 of the 158s I saw on Maesteg services today were painted in ATW turquoise - the 158 that formed the early Carmarthen-Manc, then Manc-Milford and finally Milford-Swansea-Swanline was the old silver 158 tho.

Just seen that the 2135 Swanline was a 150 attached to a pacer (not sure if it was 142 or 143) and the lights were out on the pacer so its just being taken back to Canton. Im guessing then that these were 2 of the diagrams on Pembs services today rather than 1 diagram being made up of a 150 and pacer together - although that might be useful on a busy Saturday - 4 car on pembs!

I doubt they'd refurbish a 175 with first class for one service; I guess they'll just wait until the LHCS set is available.

It looks like they made the effort to use 2 car sets on the Pembroke diagrams today - I suspect a 153 would have been a bit crowded given the weather. Normal practice last year seemed to be to use Pacers on all Saturday diagrams during the SUmmer timetable, with 2 of the weekday diagrams also becoming Pacers (except the one that goes HoW the next day) during the summer peak (July-August). Until 2005 there was a 3-car Saturday diagram, but I haven't seen that since the clockface(ish) timetable started; 2 cars usually just about cope. It would make sense for the 19.23ish arrival to attach to the 2135; I think I've noticed it happen on Saturdays but not on weekdays.

Are those Sunday evening combos going up or down? There seem to be more 150-operated shuttles on Sundays giong to both Milford and Pembroke, which would need to go back to Cardiff in the evening.

I wonder where all the 153s were yesterday - unless they doubled up on Pembroke Dock rather than the 2 car sets being 150s.  Im sure Maesteg is usually more 150s than 158s these days so perhaps they used the 150s more on Swanline/Pembroke and stuck 158s on Maesteg.

Both directions really but seem to be more going towards Cardiff in the evening-  dont notice them pass so much in the winter when its dark but in the summer its easier to spot! Sometimes ive seen very long formations of 158/150/153 - so up to 5 cars. Some havent always got the lights on inside tho. Also I travelled back from Manchester one Sunday afternoon last Summer and it was a 158/150 going to Pembs and Milford Haven - was going to be split at Carmarthen or Whitland - the announcement was made in Manchester that it would split (and they listed all those Welsh stations in West Wales followed by all the request stops) but when we got to Cardiff they said that the back end of the train (158) would terminate and the 150 would just carry on to West Wales. So not sure whether it was meant to be a milford or pembroke dock service. I used the 158 all the way down to Cardiff as I much prefer that to a 150.

Got news today that Fishguard Harbour is to get a a train every 2 hours from september.

http://wales.gov.uk/newsroom/transport/2011/110329fishguard/;jsessionid=7QhDNRvTwpn7n0XpGrmv9ss90D8YLJ89nsnwm9gJJhd1LY72hyyK!1452112521?lang=en

hopefully we will see some of the stations re-open on the route.

Also the WAG are upgrading the Trawscambira bus/coach network with new vehicles (Was told that  some of these would be similar to the van hool bodied wheel chair acessible coaches used on greenline services in london) also a number of routes are being extended with better frequencies.

One such route is service 704 Newtwon - Llandrindod - Brecon which is being extended to Cardiff

With regards to the Fishguard Branch i wonder where ATW are going to find the unit especially when they have to use a class 175 on the 2nd WAG to Holyhead

Probably one of the Cl150s currently on loan to FGW.

Or it could be the class 153  used on the swanline which will be replaced by 1 of the class 150's

ATW should also have all of their class 175's back in service as well, or maybe they are planning on running the loco hauled stock through to Fishguard & back rather than it sitting in canton all day

Good news - are they Carmarthen-Fishguard only tho. Would be great if they could be Swansea-Fishguard so there would be a half hourly Swansea-Carmarthen service with 1 extention to each of Pembroke, Milford and Fishguard every 2 hours (and the other terminating at Carmarthen as now)

Yep, sounds like it will be Fishguard - Carmarthen only. They say there's no room for more trains between Llanelli and Swansea until the re-doubling, but I had been hopeing for a 2-hourly Fishguard - Cardiff express via the Swansea District Line. 15min Cardiff - Carmarthen time savings would be possible with no extra infrastructure. I'm worried the district line will go when the redoubling happens if a regular service over it isn't introduced by then, if that happens we can say goodbye to the possiblity of fast trips to Cardiff.

Does it provide useful for ECS moves as a way of reversing a HST that's arrived at Landore the wrong way round for example?

Not many to reopen... I've read the odd muttering in the local press about St Clears, where I doubt that the additional trips between Carmarthen and Fishguard would be a clinching factor in sealing the case for reopening since it's between Carmarthen and Whitland (and an easy drive to either) and there's already a fairly frequent service. Clynderwen and Clarbeston Road are both very much still open. Apart from that there's Sarnau, with about three houses, and old halts at Wolfscastle, Welsh Hook, Mathry Road (predictably, nowhere near Mathry) and Jordanston which are similarly small places.

Letterston might, just might, be a viable contender for a station but it doesn't look like it ever had one in the past and I forget just how close it is to the line.

A Carmarthen-Fishguard shuttle makes sense as that can be done with one unit. The Evening Post says there will be 5 extra trains, so with the boat trains that'll total 6 during the day, plus the night service providing an evening connection. If timed well it might help to fill in some of the gaps for Whitland, which has a bit of an erratic pattern.

Given the sparse population I can't see any extra stations being justified unless they're seen as having railhead potential. Perhaps re-opening Fishguard & Goodwick would help to generate demand by making it a bit more convenient, albeit still somewhat out of town for FIshguard. Looking at a map, Letterston isn't too far from the line - about a mile by proper road. Wolfs Castle is convenient for both the railway and the A40, giving some use as a railhead, but I suspect most of the park-and-ride passengers would just use Fishguard or Haverfordwest unless quite close to an intermediate stop, and I can't really imagine there being many such passengers anyway.

Re the redoubling through Gowerton, would freight still go via the District Line anyway? I'm thinking mainly in terms of gradients - not sure how the DL compares, but through Cockett & Gowerton it's about 1 in 50 or 60, and Neath-Swansea is also fairly steep. Not that it's an insurmountable issue with modern locos, of course. WIthout the DL, HSTs can still turn on the Landore triangle, where there is also potential to 'avoid' Swansea. I can't really see many more passenger services on the DL unless additional stations open (Morriston etc) to help justify it, given that revenue from Swansea wouldn't be there to support such services, and additional stock provided, as there would still be a need to provide at least the current level of service to Swansea. There is a report somewhere on the web that does suggest 3tph Swansea-Llanelli once it's fully double track, with 2tp going through to Carmarthen, but doesn't AFAIR mention the DIstrict Line.

It's certainly a vicious gradient out of Swansea heading west - only times I've been up it on loco-hauled trains they made mincemeat of the climb, but then they were 37s on load 4 and hadn't just started from Swansea High Street so they bleedin' well shouldn't have had any trouble. HSTs starting out of the station can be quite pedestrian up the bank on their way to CMN/PMD.

Bit of an aside, but do the fairly frequent steam excursions to Carmarthen and points west operate via the District Line or Gowerton? I'd be interested to see what a steamer made of the bank with load 12-13!

 Most of the steam special's or any other railtours do tend to use the district line although tornado has been over cokett bank, i am sure there is a video on youtube of it.

Letterston did have a station, but it was on the original (Maencloclog railway) line to Fishguard which is now gone. Wolfscastle is right next to a bus stop on the A40, a few minitues on the hourly 412 bus would make Wolfscastle the station for Letterston. It is the only station other than Fishguard & Goodwick worth re-opening on the Fishguard branch I think.

When Gowerton's doubled the stopper to Pembroke Dock could be made hourly, with a portion for Milford in the hours there isn't a Manchester, and then re-opening St Clears on the main line wouldn't be a bad idea, as the hourly stopper could call. I'd also have an hourly fast west of Carmarthen, the current Manchester - Milford and a Fishguard - Cardiff express (via District Line). While I think there's a case for new stations on the district line, calling the Fishguard express at any of them would defeat the object of trying to make more favorable journey times from Carmarthen and west Wales to Cardiff.

Letterston did have a station, but it was on the original (Maencloclog railway) line to Fishguard which is now gone. Wolfscastle is right next to a bus stop on the A40, a few minitues on the hourly 412 bus would make Wolfscastle the station for Letterston. It is the only station other than Fishguard & Goodwick worth re-opening on the Fishguard branch I think.

When Gowerton's doubled the stopper to Pembroke Dock could be made hourly, with a portion for Milford in the hours there isn't a Manchester, and then re-opening St Clears on the main line wouldn't be a bad idea, as the hourly stopper could call. I'd also have an hourly fast west of Carmarthen, the current Manchester - Milford and a Fishguard - Cardiff express (via District Line). While I think there's a case for new stations on the district line, calling the Fishguard express at any of them would defeat the object of trying to make more favorable journey times from Carmarthen and west Wales to Cardiff.
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There are hardly any spare paths between Bridgend & Cardiff Central. Only option would be to  divert some more freight via the vale of glamorgan route or build more loops between Bridgend & Cardiff with diverting some freights via the heart of wales line.

I am currently creating a timetable idea which i will email when i have finished it.

I'll be the first to hold my hand up and say I'm not that familiar with the metals west of Cardiff - it's been nearly 20 years since I've been that way (though I'm looking forward to a few days in Tenby late summer), but it would seem on the face of it rather silly to miss out a Swansea stop, given that it's the second largest city in Wales and, Cardiff apart, dwarfs any other settlement in the immediate area.

Surely the time penalty is worth the extra stop as that's where a sizeable chunk of the folk from Pembroke, Milford Haven, Tenby, Carmarthen and soon, Fishguard, would want to go?

I'd agree with that; one could suggest a few token faster trains, but given that certain local services could do with improving (SwanLine, Heart of Wales, hourly to Haverfordwest?) there would probably be better uses for any extra units that can be found.

Looking at a recent timetable (2010) the existing Fishguard service is actually less than 10 minutes quicker than the typical Manchester-Carmarthen between Cardiff and Llanelli. Line speed aside (50mph on the District Line IIRC, unless someone feels there's a case to upgrade) that's probably because of pathing: it runs close behind a HST and probably has to wait for it to clear Port Talbot. So it could be faster if a suitable path is found, but illustrates that it might be hard to find such a path. It's not unusual to be in a HST stuck behind a stopper or freight, and a couple of local services spend a lot of extra time between Pencoed and Bridgend to allow faster trains to pass. The advantage of the District Line, for any type of traffic, is probably more down to the separation/regulation than speed.

I agree that Swanline/HOW and Pembroke/Milford could all do with a better service as most stations on those services get 2 hourly service at best (apart from the main stations Bridgend, Port Talbot, Neath, Llanelli, Carmarthen etc).

In the other direction the Fishguard fast service across the district runs just ahead of the Manchester train once it joins the main line, but it must almost have caught the 125 up by Cardiff.

Ive noticed both a 150 and 158 regularly on Manchester-West Wales services this week. The 150 I think was on the 1755 Swansea-Manchester yesterday which if it comes from Carmarthen and you trace it back I think would have been on the first Swansea-Manchester service (0645 Swansea).  Also the one that forms the 1910 Swanline which has previously been on a Manchester-Milford service seems to be a 158 so there seems to be a lack of 175s. Maybe they have quite a few out of service to finish of the refurbishment.

If journey times weren't so massivly behind the roads, then there might be a good case for making all trains go via Swansea. Also, it would be daft to divert any of the present services away from Swansea, any district line services would have to be additional (or if you divert the Manchester - Carmarthen via the district, you'd have to add a Cardiff - Carmarthen via Swansea to replace it). Even knocking 15mins off, you still don't quite catch up with the car. And yes, more Swansea services are needed too, SWWITCH want 2.5 trains per hour Swansea to Carmarthen after the Gowerton re-doubling. I don't disagree, I just think we need an express service too, eg.:

• 1tph Swansea - Whitland calling at Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port, Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, St Clears (probablly not there initally) and Whitland, continuing to Pembroke Dock in one hour and splitting to Milford and Tenby in the other (calling at all stations on both routes).
• (2-hourly) Manchester - Carmarthen via Swansea calling at Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port and Carmarthen
• (2-hourly) Swansea - Carmarthen calling at Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembrey & Burry Port and Carmarthen
• (2-hourly) Manchester - Milford Haven via Swansea calling at Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland, Haverfordwest, Johnston and Milford Haven
• (2-hourly) Cardiff - Fishguard via district line calling at Llanelli, Carmarthen, Whitland, possiblly Wolfscastle, Fishguard & Goodwick and Fishguard Harbour (you'd probablly want to terminate trains that don't have a ferry to connect with at Fishguard & Goodwick)

The passenger timetable (at least last year) doesn't appear to show the Fishguard -> Cardiff to be any faster than the other services, but we were 15mins early both times I used it and I've not had anyone disagree that a 15min time saving is possible on a regular basis.

As I said over on rail fourms, there are supposedly 10 paths an hour between Cardiff and Bridgend, 6 fast (20mins) and 4 slow (30mins). Even if you increased the frequency to 2 stoppers, 2 west Wales diesels and 2 London INTERCITYs per hour there's 4 paths left for frieght (2 fast and 2 slow, frieght doesn't call at stations so if you electrified the line a class 90 might be able to do a freight in a fast path, the slow passenger trains would then be 377s, which should speed them up too).

here is the reason why it was decided to not put the wires to Swansea:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/news/Transport-boss-reveals-rail-electrification-bid-failed/article-3398059-detail/article.html

I would like to know how there can only be 1 electric train per hour between Cardiff & Swansea when u also have the swanline service which could easily be increased to hourly so that 2 per hour

it says there is only demand for 1 train per hour in your link, it doesnt say nothing about only being 1 electric path, there saying there is no economics spending 62million on the wires, for a number of passengers who would fit easily onto 1 service per hour,

Another lovely Saturday in terms of weather - what was on Pembroke Dock and HOW diagrams? The Swanline that is usually a 150 was a 143 today - it then goes to Abergavenny after it arrives into Cardiff at 16xx.

Exactly, an hourly Swanline would be a good idea and make it 2 per hour electric. Even if you didn't increase Swanline frequency that's still 1.5tph which is greater than 1tph. WAG would have to pay for the Swanline EMUs anyway, so they might as well pay to wire Maesteg to Ebbw Vale while they are at it and you have 3 electric trains per hour from Cardiff to Bridgend, plus freight to Port Talbot and anywhere else between Cardiff and Swansea.

I took advantage of the weather and visited Offa's Dyke today... HoW was mostly 153s, which seemed to be sufficient. A bit odd, though - the 9.16 from Swansea was very much a 153, but coming back when I passed the 18.21 SWA-SHR at Llanwrtyd it was a 150! As far as I can tell they're the same diagram, and it doesn't hit Cardiff in between, so something unusual must have happened to swap them.

There was at least one 150 going to Pembroke - on the 9.20ish arrival from Carmarthen, which on a Saturday (bit different from weekdays) would form the 9.50ish to PMD, which can be quite busy with day trippers in the summer. There was some potential for confusion: the 9.16 was a few minutes late, the 9.20ish arrival was a bit early, there being a lot of padding, and both use Platform 3! So the 9.16 was announced as P3, and then the 150 from Carmarthen arrived. Then the 9.16 arrived in front. Usually I suppose the arrival would wait on Swansea Loop for the 9.16 to go, but as it was a few minutes late that would have delayed the arrival, and so they let it in first. It makes sense for the Carmarthen arrival to use P3 to provide a cross-platform connection into the 9.28, but given the potential for confusion, I don't know why the 9.16 doesn't just go from Platform 4 (it's only there a few minutes and there are no obvious conflicts).

On the subject of electrification to Swansea... if they were to do that, and not to do any of the other routes, at least initially, it would make sense for ATW to take over the Cardiff-Bristol local service, which has been suggested by various people. Then they could run a through Swansea-Bristol service, which would be a useful through service, and would be more efficient than an isolated pool stock for Swanline, as well as making better use of the electrification between Cardiff and Bristol. An electric Swanline service would also help with acceleration, and consequently its ability to hold up faster trains. I'd keep Cardiff-Portsmouth as it is, though, as it's also a very useful through service.

^62 million???? That changes things, alot. When I wrote my report to WAG a while back I was working with 3.5million per mile. ^62million for the 46 miles from Cardiff to Swansea works out at about ^1.4million per mile. Now, the money I was trying to get at would cover electrifing not just the Swanline, Cheltenham Spa, Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services but nearly the entire ValleyLines network. Think what Heart Of Wales, Conwy Valley and Pembroke Dock could do with all those 150s!!! That would give up 153s to allow them to be doubled up to form my Fishguard - Cardiff 2-hourly express service until England or Scotland do some more electrfication and give us more 158s.


That is a good idea for Swanline, in my proposal I linked it with the Cheltenham service and put Maesteg trains through to Ebbw Vale Instead, removing the need for Swanline and Ebbw Vale to turn back at Cardiff.

I had a shock last night when i had a class 158 , no.  158833 on the delayed 19:04 Cardiff Central - Pembroke Dock service, first time i have had  a class 158 on a swanline service  for a while.

There were a lot of delays in Cardiff yesterday, with the 09:42 Bridgend - Barry - Cardiff central train being routed into Platform 4 with  the reaer carriage partially outside the platform because a FGW class 158 was in the way.  a few trains had to run non stop to Penarth to make up time. I know the Fishguard left a few minutes late as did the 10:51 Cardiff Central - Treherbert train which was formed from 1 of the  2 class 150's i came in on from Bridgend.

I did take some shots, which i will post on my flickr & fotopic pages later today.

Last night I travelled back from Cardiff on the 2315 Carmarthen service (been to see X Factor in the CIA), and it was 6 cars - 2x 3 car 175s. They were tellling people to move to the front car of the 2nd 175 for Pencoed, Llanharan, Pontyclun and swanline stations as it was too long for the platform! Good idea tho to have 6 cars - I wonder if having such a big event on in Cardiff prompted the extra capacity. The trains going up from Swansea were overcrowded all week particularly the 1655 Manchester service.

On arrival into Cardiff I noticed the new refurbished 158 in the sidings at Canton - im guessing this was due to form a Holyhead service. Also one of the Portsmouths yesterday was 4 car - a 150 and a 2 car 158.

Today I noticed again we have a 150 on one of the Manchester diagrams and a few 158's.  Plus one of the Swanline was 2 pacers stuck together. I wonder if Pembroke Dock diagrams have had extra capacity today?

Interesting use of 2 175s. The only time I've seen 2 together before, one set has been locked. They must have some sort of SDO then - never heard of it being used on a 175 before. I believe 180s have SDO, but I have a feeling their doors are released by the driver, so it's a different setup anyway.

I passed a 158 yesterday: would have been the 19.10 up Swanline. They seem to have been stretching their legs recently...

Re the VoG working going into Platform 4... I've noticed something similar before, forming the Fishguard and Treherbert services, so I assume it's the normal arrangement. What would be the 11.06 Treherbert leaves early and runs non-stop to Radyr, enabling it to go from P4 via the City line. I'd assumed it would be formed by an earlier Treherbert arrival, but it looks like it might be formed by that Vale arrival.

Back in may 2008 i had a train being formed of 3 class 175's 1, 3 carriage set  and 2 , 2 carriage sets  the rear unit was locked out of use with the front 2  , 2 carriage unit's being uncoupled at Swansea and passengers having to board the  3 carriage set at Swansea to continue to west wales.

I didnt even notice it was 2 175s together until the guard explained the reason people were being asked to move down the train if they were getting off at the smaller stations because the train was too long for the platform.

When we arrived into Cardiff they seemed to have platform capacity problems. I travelled up on the swanline which was a 150 and a 153 attached to the back which was locked (the guard had to stop people trying to get onto the 153 at every station!).  It terminated at Platform 2 but the back door of the 150 and all of the 153 werent next to the platform.  There was an ATW 150 near the middle of the platform followed by the 4 car Portsmouth Hbr Train (a 150 and 158 together), then our train. Had to move down the carriage to get off.   Im guessing they were keeping platform 1 free for the paddington service which is 5 mins behind swanline.

Yes nice to see the 158's being used - they seem to be regularly used now on Manchesters and Maesteg services.

Ive noticed on the new timetable one of the trains from Holyhead goes on to Milford Haven as a through service. In the other direction tho I dont think there are any through trains to Holyhead or even Chester.

Yes i seen that for some reason the currrent wag express is sproposed to run to Milford Haven from May

Wonder what journey it will come back on, unless they run it empty across the district line.

When returning to Pembrokeshire in the evening in the past I have seen a Milford or Carmarthen 175 headed for Chester (rather than their normal destonation of Manchester) going in the other direction. I think the depot for 175s is at Chester so these evening services are returning the units to base.

I'm guessing that Portsmouth was late, the 150 would slow it down. Also the latest I've heard on rail UK fourms is the refurbed 158 (158840) has broken down. Any advance on that?

Yes, thats been the case with the 2000 from Swansea - it goes to Chester currently, but in the new timetable from May its just going as far as Cardiff like the 1900 and 2055 services are.

Not sure about the refurb ATW 158 - not a very good start if its broken down. It was in Canton yesterday so wondered if it was on a Holyhead run as not many other 158's start at Cardiff.

Just seen that the 2015 Cardiff-Milford Haven service is 5 car - a 2 car and a 3 car 175. No doubt to get enough 175s to West Wales ready for tomorrows first services.

According to rail UK fourm - 158840 (refurbished) is supposed to be launched at Aberystwyth tommorow, departing at 09:30.

EDIT: Sorry, I should have put that it the other thread. Will put it there too.

Are the Holyheads now terminating at Cardiff and then going straight back? I ask because today the 1520 departure from Holyhead was departing from platform 4b so I assume the terminating train which arrived around 1515 was going back. Usually there is around a 2 hour turnaround time? Makes sense tho if they are short of diagrams.

A few observations today - all of the daytime swanlines were 153s - even the one that doesnt go on HOW and ends up going to Abergavenny. Usually we get a pacer on that one on Saturdays. Maybe the pacer was used on Pembroke Dock? Mostly 175s on Manchester trains - apart from the 15.50 from Cardiff which was a 158. That tends to be a 158 on Saturdays (not sure about during the week).

The 12.25 Cardiff-Paddington which I travelled on from Port Talbot to Cardiff on was late, this was due to the Swanline being late ahead of it - the swanline departed Port Talbot at 1143 and I opted to wait for the HST as it was an overcrowded 153. The HST left PT on time however it was 5 mins late leaving Bridgend, made up some time but was ages outside Cardiff waiting for a platform. They seemed to hold the Portsmouth train.  The Paddington departed around 12.31 (6 mins late) and the Portsmouth train around 12.34 (4 mins late). Im guessing Ebbw Vale was therefore also a few mins late but didnt hang around to see. Good that the held it tho as im sure it would make up time, and people travelling to Bath and beyond would have a long wait!

 

The 15:50 train to Manchester  from Cardiff  on weekdays everytime i have seen it on weekdays since i started university 3 years ago is a class 175.

The 11:10 swanline service from swansea is normally the most reliable of the lot so for it to be late is a rarity. Personally i would have looped the swanline at Stormy down to allow the london service to overtake.

The Cardiff - Ebbw Vale trains are allowed 23 minutes to get to Rogerstone sfrom Cardiff yet they always seem to arrive 3-4 minutes early each time i have travelled on that line

I would have looped the swanline as well, which I expected to happen which is party why I went on the 125 as I thought that might get to Cardiff first.  The 11.10 Swanline doesnt come from HOW so should be reliable.

I noticed today the Swanline that comes off HOW was 2 x 153s. What was used on Pembroke Dock then assuming 4 153s would have bene on Swanline/HOW today in total plus 1 in North Wales and 1 on the Cardiff Bay Service.  With it being school holidays and nice weather are we getting 2 car diagrams on Pembroke Dock Services now?

Yes, especially since  on weekends ATW do have some stock which is sat in Canton, most likely having some work done but if it isnt it would be better to use them rather than just having them standing in the siding all day.  I am hopeing during the summer to do a day out on the heart of wales since i am more likely to get a class 150 as last time i did it on a single class 153 it was packed and this was during december as well.

I think it is stupid what they have done linking the 13:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline with the heart of wales diagram

Well it provides a through journey for stations on the HOW to Cardiff and also the timings fit together quite well. I assume they do it to swap units between HOW and Canton.

I have never done the HOW line so hope I get to do it this summer. Would rather a 150 tho - which diagram is most likely to be a 150?

a class 150 can easily appear on any of the heart of wales diagrams. you can sometimes get 2 class 153's together on the 08:10 Cardiff - Swansea - Llandrindod - Shrewsbury on summer saturdays but it can be a class 150 most of the time on summer saturdays.

I think on Royal Welsh show day last year it was 150+153 on the normal Heart Of Wales trains, and 2x 150 on the show special (saw it at Llandrindod, one member of staff (on the Swansea bound service train I seem to remember) nearly got shut in the door as it was closing!).

The 1900 Swansea-Cardiff service was a 175 (2 car) today so I assume that a 175 was on Ebbw Vale unless the unit was swapped.  Also I notice this week the 2000 from Swansea has been terminating at Cardiff Central rather than going to Chester - any idea why?

I travelled back from Manchester last night on the 18.30 to South Wales and to my surprise it was a 150  :o  I know 150s have been known to turn up from time to time but its very rare? They had a trolley service on it between Shrewsbury and Cardiff. 150s arent ideal tho for such long distance but not many places to store luggage. Quite a fast train tho. Fortunately wasnt too busy at Manchester with it being a Bank Holiday - usually the 1730 and 1830 are really packed between Manc-Shrewsbury. This wasnt too bad, although I didnt get a table seat until Shrewsbury. There was a change of unit at Cardiff and it was replaced with a 3 car 175.

Today I needed to travel to Cardiff and got the 11.13 Port Talbot to Manchester - it was a 2 car 158 and was rammed with people. After Bridgend there wouldnt have been much room for any more passengers, even standing. I stood all the way to Cardiff. It was also almost 10 mins late leaving Cardiff because of the overcrowding. Seems to be a lot of 158s used on Manchesters at the moment. It was a 150 over to the bay but a pacer when I came back later on. Id have thought on a busy Saturday now its summer weather especially a 150 would be better used on Pembroke Dock with a pacer on the bay all day but seemed to be a 150 early on.

There was a pacer on the Swansea - Pembroke dock diagram, which wasnt too healthy, i know it caused problems at Carmarthen while it was on the 14:00 Swansea - Pembroke dock as it had problems with the dooors not working properly. It eventually left 5 minutes late delaying the Manchester train which in turn delayed the class 37 railtour from Preston.

153303 was another ATW unit having problems today as the conducter could not get the doors to close  after opening to allow passengers to board at Swansea before the unit departed on the 17:10 to Cardiff. This service was packed and in my opinion a lot of the cardiff passengers on it should have been made to wait for the 17:28 service to London so that local passengers could actually get on the train. The train eventually became less crowded by the time it got to Port Talbot but was at least 2 minutes late by then.


Noticed today that there seemed to be some conflict between what the working time was showing and what the public timetable was showing, was talking to a ATW driver today about it.

Had a great day out to Tenby & Carmarthen however i must say the Pembroke Dock branch needs a weedkiller train again. Also noticed that there are electronic screens now at a few of the stations on the Pembroke branch how about getting the swanline stations fitted so people actually know when their train is due if at all.

I agree that Swanline stations need the departure screens - Pencoed, Llanharan etc have them but I guess more trains call there than Swanline. Llansamlet have one I think. Surprised Pyle hasnt.

Is the new timetable for the West Wales - Manchester from 22nd May available yet?

Nothing on the ATW website and no paper copies at any of the stations i went to yesterday.

There is a campaign to  have more  services and stations on the Swansea District Line:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/04/30/call-to-revive-historic-welsh-rail-link-91466-28608908/

The new timetables have been at <http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Timetables/> for a couple of weeks.

The links say '22 May to 10 December 2011' but the South Wales booklet at least is actually for the summer period only.

The Saturday timings haven't changed as much as the weekday timings. This means that there are separate weekday and Saturday timings (especially on the Manchester-Carmarthens) despite operating to the same basic frequency, which seems a bit pointless. Given that the frequency and resource usage are basically the same, this seems like a somewhat unnecessary complication, although there are some advantages to keeping the old timetable on Saturdays. The extra Manchester-Tenby per the new weekday timetable goes right through to the Dock on Saturdays (not so much of a problem sending a 175 onto that pattern on a Saturday night) - good to see an extra through train running.

I note that the morning Carmarthen-Manchester is back to its old timings as far as Swansea, providing a more even spacing for Carmarthenshire and maintaining the connection into the 6.58, but waiting at Swansea for 7.03 slot as in the draft with the consequent uneven spacing for Pyle. (Probably just not the capacity to sit at Cardiff for 20 minutes instead of Swansea, as will happen in some of the later slots.)

It looks like some skip-stopping has been added for Craven Arms and Church Stretton to fill in some of the 2-hour gaps that were threatened.

Im guessing some of the timings havent changed on a Saturday to allow passengers from London trains connect with the Carmarthen/Milford trains at Cardiff? On weekdays with the extra London train it isnt so much of a problem???

With the Manchesters sitting at Cardiff for 15 mins longer every other hour this could have platform capacity problems at Cardiff. The Tauntons are going to have to make sure they are on platform 2 before the Manchester train arrives, or depart from Platform 0 or 4. Platform 1 needs to be free for the xx55 London trains.

That would make sense. Another advantage of the Saturday timings is that the 175 will be behind the HST (as now) which will be useful given the daytime leisure travel loadings on a Saturday.

The Tauntons sometimes go from Platform 1 once the xx:55 London train has left, but it's very tight. Sharing P2 with the Manchester would be 'interesting', as the Manchester train arriving behind the Taunton would be in service, and thus remain unlocked. Usually when platforms are shared one unit can remain locked and just the front one announced until it's left; hopefully there'll be reasonable manual announcements if this is what is to happen.

A slight niggle on Saturdays. In previous years the 9.48 SWA-PMD has waited at Carmarthen for the 10.05 departure (through from wherever via Cardiff) to give a 5 minute connection. This means a more comfortable journey for Tenby day trippers, and a good connection for passengers coming from the east. No connection time is shown for Carmarthen, i.e. it's 5 minutes. In the new booklet now 9.41 leaves Carmarthen 3 minutes after the 10.01 arrives. So journey planners won't show the connection, and passengers from Neath etc have a long wait at Swansea from an earlier train, along with the long dwell time at Carmarthen.

In practice it looks like the 10.01 would be more than capable of arriving early enough for a 5 minute connection. That's quite a useful connection that the planners have killed off there. It seems to be because Kidwelly and Ferryside stops have been added to the express, giving them a third train in the space of an hour, in order to avoid too long a gap before the next train stops there. The departure from Carmarthen probably can't be any later to make the connection because of the margin with the up train at Tenby.

There is a story in the western mail today about the fishguard service, including the possible of a tempory platform being used at Goodwick station.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/05/02/extra-trains-for-fishguard-which-has-no-station-for-them-to-stop-at-91466-28617659/

According to the journalists  the proposed timetable has at least 2 trains working to/from swansea, 2 to/from carmarthen with 1 terminating at Claberston road

Hmm. Fishguard town centre is up a steep hill and the other side of the headland from Goodwick whichever way you cut it. There isn't now and never was a station in close proximity to Fishguard itself. I'm not familiar with the location of the former Fishguard and Goodwick station but given the route that the railway takes into the Harbour station I can't see it being any more than marginally closer to Fishguard town.

I  know teh council are trying to get a temporary platform set up like that at Workington north until the old platform is rebuilt.  The council do have a large amount of land next to the station which they do plan to use as a car park and   the Fishguard town bus service will also serve the station at frequent intervals. Some journey's on service X50/550 will also serve the station

There's an awful lot to be said for making the best use of resources that are sitting there idle for most of the time - with just 2 trains in 24 hours on the line.  But I have to say that the BCR figures quoted in the article are pretty low compared to many other schemes, and I wonder what's not included in the story.  Perhaps the fact that it's popped up shortly before elections to the next Welsh assembly has some sort of connection here ... and I wonder whether an incoming government in Wales would be bound by it.

Just found this which does have a timetable on it:

http://fishguardtrains.info/

I think the service despite low rate of returns is still needed as it can become a hub for transport in the far west of Wales. More small lines need to be looked at re-opening along with stations so that local transport hubs can be created where buses meet trains allowing for further travel. This of course requires joined up thinking. Also worth remembering peple when given a train service will probably use and exceed projecgted figures (Ebbw Vale for example) along with the possibilty that certain bus services that may duplicate the route no longer requires subsidies since the railway can replace it.

Where did you hear that? As far as I know, my suggestion to WAG of extending the X50 to Fishguard and St Davids' (currently it's only Aberystwyth/Aberaeron to Cardigan) was not taken up.

Was talking to someone who drives for ritchards down in west wales

Just had a look at the new West Wales-North Wales/Manchester timetable.

I notice its only until 14.05 that every other hour the Manchesters are departing at xx05, the 15.50, 17.50 etc are the usual times due to the hourly Holyhead service between 15.xx and 19.xx. So really its not as big a change as I thought with only the 07.50, 09.50, 11.50 and 13.50 trains waiting the extra time in Cardiff.

Overall an improved service as far as passengers from Cardiff-Manchester/Holyhead are concerned.

I also notice on Saturdays they are departing at xx55 every hour, making use of the fact there is no London train at xx55 on Saturdays.

Also the new 18.20 Holyhead isnt an extension of Swanline as originally advertised in the provisional timetable.

So sombody at Richards Bros told you the X50 would be extended? That's interesting, perhaps somebody at WAG listened to me after all. Did they tell you any more details, eg. if it was extending to St Davids or just to Fishguard?

Was told that  St Davids was being looked at but it would only be a few trips per day

. I will ask next time i see him when i am next in west wales.

Last day of the old timetable today then, be interesting to see how it all works on Monday.

I noticed today the 1455 Manchester service came into Swansea late and stayed around for ages even after everyone has boarded the train. It was also announced as calling additionally at Pencoed and Llanharan. I have just checked the train tracking via live departure boards and it looks like it got even later as time went on and its been terminated short of Manchester at Stockport.

The 17.10 Swanline which I ended up on was 3 cars - a 153 and 158. I went on the 158. I wonder if this was the diagram all day or have they finally decided to put extra capacity on this busy service.

Dam i havent seen a class 158 on the daytime swanline for a while.  Ideally the 17:10 should be a class 150 or 158 not a single class 153.

Noticed at least 2 class 150's on the long distance services to Holyhead & manchester today.

Oh dear oh dear. 150s on the Fishguard (being an express service) is bad enough, having them turn up on even longer distance fast services is even worse.

ps:
have you talked to Richards Bros yet? Maybe they won't need to run any different services, it's all gone quite on fishguardtrains.info, the consultation was supposed to start in April, then the begining of May but no news yet.

Not much, the idea was being looked at but seems to have gone really quiet, i wonder if the WAG have suddenly realised that they wont have the stock available.

Best idea i can come up with is to get those MK2 stock in Canton back to at least some working order hire in 2 class 31's and run top & tail between Carmarthen & fishguard with the temporary platform at Goodwick.

Another idea put loco hauled back on FGW's Cardiff - Taunton route and borrow a  class 150 from them

Interesting e-mail has just reached my inbox:


Consultation form should be attached. If you require a Welsh version, then let me know and I'll happily send you one.

Thanks for posting that  i am not sure that i would be too happy about the re-timing the 15:14 Cardiff - Swansea swanline service though and running it to fishguard, what will happen to the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline service.

Is that fishguard.railway@live.co.uk address for Mrs Ann Thomas, Rail Unit, Transport, Local Government and Communities, Welsh Assembly Government, Cathays Park, Cardiff or for the NPTF? If the latter, why should I use this address rather than the normal info at nptf addreess? (I think a public meeting to discuss various options might be useful, a bit like when Prof. Stuart Cole came to Aberystwyth university for the TrawsCambria consultaion but in shorter time slots to enable more discussion between members of the public, not just one person at a time turning up to talk to WAG/ATW representatives. Which address do I contact? Such a public debate might explain to those who think the new trains should call at Haverfordwest why trains won't call at Haverfordwest and inform pepole about the Swansea District Line (which I have a feeling WAG or ATW or some-body don't want us the general public to know about).

I don't like the sound of the through trains to Manchester or provision of 175s. I thought they found when looking at a hourly Miford Haven services that the Manchester - Carmarthen couldn't extend further west and I wouldn't want to see the Milford branch loose any of it's current services. Add to that the fact that 175 booked services now see alarming numbers of class 150 substiutions (2 per day on the Holyhead - Cardiffs apparently, and before the new 175 CDF - Holyhead (WAG express 2) started up I saw a 150 on what must of been a train from Milford heading the other way as I was traveling from Cardiff to Haverfordwest) and I think this is a poor desion. Better to wait to December with no service, or a simple 153 shuttle from Fishguard to Carmarthen, to give them time to prepare some LHCS to free up some 158s for an improved Fishguard service from December than cause even more 150s to turn up on express routes. Which trains on the timetable are supposed to be 175s by the way?

I wonder if they will be using the through platforms for the trains that terminate at Whitland or using one of the bays, the Cardigan one needs fixing if they want to use that! Similarly, will they use the short bay at Camarthen at all?

Also, it is as I feared, one of our 5 extra services into Fishguard is essentially an ECS working (05:50 from Camarthen, I'd be supprised if enough passengers want to head west at that time to fill a taxi, let alone pay of any aspect of operating the train). The 20:26 departure from Fishguard is also of little use, but a bit more useful than the morning train I suppose. Is there permissive working at FGH? If they can run-round locos, I'd have thought there would have to be. If so, wouldn't the only problem with stabling the unit overnight at FGH be ensuring that you make sure either the driver or guard on the first and last service have a car driving licence? Alternativly, you could perhaps keep the 20:26 departure and couple the unit to the front of the night boat train on the way in, then leave that unit behind at FGH (provided of course both units are Sprinters).

E-mail was sent to me from fishguard@gmx.com , which is an e-mail address used by the Fishguard Trains Petition Team (http://www.moylegrove.co.uk/signhere.htm , a website that I see you have contributed to) to send out info to their mailing list (which I'm on).

Me just the messenger - I'm sure that they will be happy to answer your question.

WAG issue correction to the draft timetable after Fishguard Trains point out that Carmarthen-Whitland cant be done in 4 minutes..http://fishguardtrains.info/?p=79

It would be a very high speed train to do that

How come there are so many 150s on the Manchester/Holyhead trains? The new WAG express would only take up 1x 175 so I cant see why they are so short?

 I have noticed a few of the valley lines services are shortformed as well. There must be a problem with a few units perhaps

Interesting how the new Saturday timetable is very different from weekdays. The Manchesters are all departing from Cardiff at xx55 making use of the fact there is no xx55 London service on Saturdays. Also all the down services are the same as before with a few slight amendments e.g. the 13.30 from Manchester now going all the way to Pembroke Dock.

Also notice 16xx from Ebbw Vale still extends into the Swanline 17.38 whilst on weekdays the fast and stopping service have been swapped around.

Having just read the Fishguard consultation document...

Hmmmmmmmmmm :-)

A very different planning principle from the one displayed on the Milford and Pembroke routes, which have a relatively simple clockface (more or less) timetable. Here there's an element of concentrating the service around the (commuting) peaks.

I suspect this means someone's worked out that there isn't a spare unit available. It looks like the timetable might be achievable with existing resources, hence the concentration on the morning and evening.

Working out the diagrams in order to understand what's going on, if I've interpreted correctly we have...

Diagram 1 - 175?
05.50 CMN-FGH
06.53 FGH-WTL
Then ECS to CLR, enabling it to depart Whitland as a shunt move without first shunting to the down platform?
07.33 CLR-FGH
08.06 FGH-SWA (Perhaps to Manchester...?)
If this does go to Manchester, it would effectively be using the 175 that currently starts on a Pembroke Dock service and ends up in the same path to Manchester after sitting in Swansea for half an hour. The CMN-SWA part is currently split off the 7.50 off Swansea, and then goes onto the 10.05 SWA-PMD.

This looks like the only through Manchester service, and as such I don't think we need to worry about taking 175s off other long-distance trains, but if this is indeed to be a 175-op'd through working, what happens to the first Pembroke Dock service...?

Diagram 2 - 153
Detach from 7.50 off SWA (CDF-PMD service)
08.50 CMN-FGH (Using the set that currently operates the 09.xx CMN-SWA then Pembroke Dock for the rest of the day)
09.55 FGH-CMN
xx.xx CMN-PMD (etc... the remains of the current 10.05 [or is it 10.00 now?] SWA-PMD)

But if this is right I can't work out what is to form the first Pembroke service.

Then nothing until the existing daytime service...

Diagram 3 - 150
Existing Swanline daytime then...
15.30 CDF-FGH (As noted previously, this orphans the 17.10)
18.49 FGH-WTL
19.38 WTL-FGH
20.26 FGH-CMN

What happens to the 17.10 Swanline? It has been noted that WAG 2 currently languishes in Cardiff all day. Perhaps it runs ECS to Swansea and forms the 17.10, which would basically restore the through service shown in the draft May 2011 timetable! If it runs ECS to Swansea, I'd suggest using it for an extra 16.04 CDF-Swanline ;-)
Alternatively, perhaps the 16.55 will just make extra stops, perhaps with a later subsequent departure from Cardiff to the Marches.

And what happens to that first Pembroke train?

I'm not surprised by the interaction with the 7.50 SWA-PMD. If there had been a new dedicated unit, I'd have suggested using the split off this service to swap sets over, with the earlier Fishguard set then going through to Swansea as the 9.xx CMN-SWA.

I doubt the extra platforms at Carmarthen and Whitland could be used without additional investment. I suspect the Carmarthen bay is only be signalled for shunt movements. Whitland's only extant bay is only accessible from the branch. The evening train that turns back at Whitland could be shunted from the up to down line via the east end crossover.
Re permissive working at Fishguard, is the platform part of the token section? I have a feeling it would be, in which case another train couldn't run onto the branch. Having said that, perhaps a unit could shunt beyond the platform if the track to allow another train to run. TBH I don't really see the point of holding trains there overnight, given that the early & late Pembs and Milford trains don't do that, and the crew would then need taxis.

Perhaps the first Pembroke service will operate as far as Swansea and be a 150/153?




Also what happens to the 1514 CDF-SWA service if that diagram is to go on a 15.30 CDF-FGH service? Perhaps the WAG express 175 will form the 1514 and the 1710 Swanlines. I cant imagine the 16.55 SWA-MAN stopping at Swanline to replace the 17.10 as both services are very busy and 16.55 might be a bit early for some Swanline commuters as the next swanline departs swansea after 7pm.

What's the difference between having something not signalled, and having it signaled for shunt movements but not passenger ones? Also, I've no idea about signaling, but I thought that trackwork-wise the intact bay at Whitland was accessible from the main line. However having checked a map I have on my hard drive I think you are right that it isn't.

They could need a taxi, or they could perhaps use a company car and leave it at Fishguard during the day so long as they always roster staff who have a car driving licence.

Do loco run-rounds not affect token working? Do you think that beyond the platform would be outside the token section then? The point of holding trains there overnight is two-fold. First (and this probablly applies to the very first Milford and Pembroke services each day) I think it is a bit of a waste of fuel having to run what are almost ECS moves when they would be avoided if a unit spent the night at FGH, PMD and Milford Haven. Secondly, Pembroke and Milford don't have a funding slice allocated for precisly 5 extra trains each way per day, nor do they have the concern that their service is only a trial and will be withdrawn after a few years if it doesn't see enough patronage. There was an article somwhere (might have been wikipedia though) that suggested the service level at Fishguard was under review which would either lead to a service improvment, or a withdrawal of service. Therefore I am concerned that getting the timetable wrong now will mean the end of the line (not just the 5 extra trains, but the track as well, which would make getting any service ever again much harder) when the trial period ends. Those 3 ECS workings (the first 2 into Fishguard in the morning, and the last train out in the evening) are eating into our precious 5 trains each way. If they didn't count towards our 5 I wouldn't mind so much, but I'd still be concerned about the fuel use.

It is as you mention a very different timetable to Milford and esspecially Pembroke which have pretty much a two-hourly service, in Pembroke's case without peek extras. Is an almost hourly morning peek service for Fishguard really worth the loss of lesuire travelers due to the huge gaps in the off-peak schedule? With the distances involved, I'd be supprised if an extra coach was needed for the peak let alone an almost hourly service. Some interesting figures, with a 6:55am first departure, 6:55pm last departure, 08:35am first arrival and 8:35pm last arrival 6 trains per day can in theroy be equally spaced exactly 2-hours apart. The railway probablly can't get the ferry times moved, so there would have to be some compromises, but they could do alot better than having 5hr gaps. I thought a gap slightly less than 3 hours in the normally every-2-hours bus service on my route back from university was bad!

One last thing, can you really get from Fishguard to Whitland in 23mins or does the 6:53 departure from Fishguard on the proposed timetable contain another error?

I am sure someone can give a more detailed explanation but I gather it has to do with the way the position of the points is detected and locked within the signalling system. Until last year this was the situation at Wokingham. Trains coming from Waterloo which couldn't continue to Reading because of disruption had two options. Either shunt out of service over the crossover at the end of platform 2 and then change ends and draw back into Platform 1 or more usually carry on empty out of service and pick up their return journey at Bracknell as there wasn't time for all that shunting at Wokingham.

Now the systems have been changed and trains can start back to Waterloo (or Redhill/Gatwick) in service from platform 2. It's being put to good use this weekend as the work at Reading means everything turns back at Wokingham.

Mainly signalling, I think. Perhaps someone 'in the know' could comment on this....

The most visible difference is that when a passenger train approaches Carmarthen station it has a main aspect (i.e. coloured light, in this case would be yellow as coming to the end of the line) with the indicator saying UP or DP (up/down platform). If it's going into sidings, including a non-passenger bay etc, it'll be shown a subsidiary aspect (white lights) indicating a shunt move. Behind the scenes, there'd probably be a rule saying passenger trains not passed into the platform, and perhaps an issue of track not being maintained to required standard? Facing point locks are relevant, but the CMN bay comes off the running and they're the only points so they would presumably have FPL anyway.

Also there's probably only a shunt signal for starting from the platform. I don't think I've ever noticed a proper signal in the bay.

Actually a passenger train would have white lights to be called on into an occupied platform, as often happens at Carmarthen... So that makes it a grey area, but generally a passenger line will be signalled with a main aspect.

I believe this is why Platform 0 at Cardiff never takes arrivals - it was originally a non-passenger line AFAIR, and allowing loaded arrivals would require the entrance signals to be set up for the move; it's easier just to put in a starting signal for departing moves.

Whitland's bay connects directly to the start of the branch. This is curving away form the main line at that point, so quite a lot of modification, perhaps in the form of a scissor-like arrangement across the branch turnout, would be needed to connect it to the main line. The connections to the sidings etc on the up side were rationalised/severed a few years ago. If you search Google Images for Whitland signal box, there are some good photos of the frame and diagram somewhere, which give a good idea of the layout and signalling.

The up arrival that then runs ECS to CLR can possibly cross over the points onto the down line, but the reversing signal in the up platform is a ground disc, and so the train can't be loaded. It also looks like that end of the points has no facing point lock; there is one on the other side of the crossover, as trains from Tenby will hit them from that end. The train in the evening could run ECS from the platform to the east end, then reverse over the crossover there, back over the level crossing and into the down platform.


If I have time I'll have a scout for photos or check the sectional appendix (one 'appeared' on the internet a few years ago) to see if they shed any light. I suppose loco run-arounds are fine as the loco and coaches are both 'in section' at a location set up for the purpose. I suspect the token may be required to operate the run-around points.

The evening working may be of some use, but those morning down trains look particularly useless. To be fair I expected it to happen, but given the 'promise' of 5 extra trains it's not a great situation. I wonder how the waste of fuel and track access charges compares to the cost of transporting the driver, along with the issue of security of a train being held at a remove location for the night. I would suggest, however, that Fishguard is more secure than Pembroke Dock etc, being located within the port.


Pembroke does of course have a special timetable for its (well, Tenby's) actual peak, summer Saturdays, in order to accommodate FGW. I've often thought it would be good for Milford and Pembroke to have trains better timed for commuting at least to Carmarthen in both directions, but it wouldn't be easy to resource, especially with the standard pattern timetable, and I wonder what the genuine need is. If the Fishguard service demonstrates a strong commuter flow to CMN or even small flows to SWA, perhaps the users in South Pembs will in turn be asking for 'fill-in' peak services.


Doesn't look right. As it's 10 minutes below the current journey time, it looks like a simple typo.


I'd assume so, but what happens to it then? All other services are accounted for, and if an extra Sprinter is available, it would be odd that the entire Fishguard timetable seems to be based on using existing units.


Not sure what you're getting at: isn't the plan for the current 15.14 itself to become the 15.30?
 

That early morning train that's a bit too quick... is it supposed to terminate at Clarbeston Road, and not Whitland? The timing would make more sense then.

 FGW do have 2 atw class 150's which they are expected to use til at least september so its possible that 1 of these could be used.

I would surprise me if they take a pacer of 1 of the valley lines diagrams or something. I noted today that a pacer was working the 13:30 Fishguard Hbr - Cheltenham Spa service. feel sorry for the passengers on it as it was packed when it arrived.

Also 158840 was in use on the 15:20 Cardiff - Maesteg service, surprisinly all the diargams on the Maesteg - Cheletenham route were 158's

ATW and FGW do see to be having problems with their departure screans, it was showing that the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke dock service was cancelled but it was in front of a fgw class 158 on platform 3 and was worked by a class 142.

Also anyone know what happened to the 07:00 Cardiff - Bristol - Birmingham - Manchester service today. It's shown in the timetable but didnt operate today at all and the FGW website was showing a Swindon - Westbury service at 08:33 from swindon.


I am sure a lot of  enthusiasts would like to see a loco hauled set work the 17:10 swanline to Cardiff, hopefully they will fit the mk3 stock with power door's, as it will have a hard time keeping to times with having to close the doors all the time unless it misses out Pyle and the 17:55  departure to Manchester serves Pyle instead

Ah right I hadnt realised the 15.14 Swanline was to become the 15.30.

I noticed 158840 on Maesteg today. Not that surprised that all Cheltenham-Maesteg were 158's - they seem to often have mostly 158's when ive experienced this service. I guess the 150s are tied up with valleys/cardiff local routes/pembroke dock/swanline/crewe and chester local journeys etc plus they are apparently used a lot more on heart of wales now.

Not sure what happened to the 0700 XC Manchester - perhaps it didnt run because its a Bank Holiday?

Not too sure,  the other operators were operating a saturdays service, although there were a few minor changes. not sure what happened to the 04:58 Swansea - London service as i didnt see this pass through Pyle at all yesterday morning.

Also noted that FGW's departure board were showing the 14:21 Bristol TM - Cardiff service as delayed, but i left on time and was diverted to Bristol Parkway due to problems going via the other side of the triangle. There was a hst  sat there on the westbound line on the south wales side of the triangle which had been there for at least 40 minutes so not sure if it had failed perhaps.

The 09:49 Bristol TM - Weymouth service was also 30 minutes late at Castle Cary yesterday, not sure if it left Bristol on time as i had decided to get a trip on the 09:44 crosscountry szervice to Plymouth which was a hst, must say the refurbishedment is great personally this is the way FGW should have gone.


FGW also had a SWT class 158 working on the Great Malvern/Gloucester - Weymouth service yesterday as well as 1 of the London midland class 153's which was on the 14:00 Cardiff - Taunton service which i passed at Patchway on the delayed 14:21 Bristol - Cardiff service

I have noticed the 22xx from Swansea to Cardiff Swanline which starts at Tenby (used to be Pembroke Dock) is now a 175. Guess this is because its the 1704 from Cardiff to Tenby. It often used to be a pacer or 150 before. 

Also notice the 20xx from Swansea-Cardiff is now a 150 or even a pacer - im guessing this is something to do with the change around of units on the Pembroke Dock line as this used to be a 175 that went to Chester. Explains why it terminates at Cardiff now with a seperate service from Cardiff-Chester.

Perhaps the unit that comes up from Swanline the night before becomes the Sprinter that would have formed the 9am CMN - SWA (assuming that's a Sprinter now), but if the 9am is now going to be the 175 from the Pembroke service that Sprinter could work the first Pembroke instead. Would that work?

Where would the unit come from to spilt off from that CDF - Pembroke service, or is this diagramed for a pair of units anyway?

The 7.50 from SWA (6.xx CDF) has been a pair for a couple of years - usually 153s or whatever they can find, but last year became Pacers for the summer holidays. It drops a unit at Carmarthen, which currently appears to form the 9.00ish to Swansea and then onto a Pembroke Dock cycle.

175001 managed to blow a turbo yesterday at Rhyl much to the shock of  the  passengers onboard so it is out of action for repairs. First north western should have ordered class 170's which are still better than the class 175's although they have sorted themselves out recently.

 With the Fishguard services starting in september ATW will need   all the units in service  that they can get.

some relief should come when they no longer have to send 1 class 150 to FGW, which should be around sepetmber time at London Midland are expecting at least 1 class 172 to enter Public service at the beginning of July

175001 was back in service the day after which was yesterday on the Holyhead service at 17:24 from Shrewsbury.

Good, Chester depot do seem to be doing very well with these unit.

Today i sent the quiestionaire concerning the Fishguard services back to the rail unit at the WAG together with my question about what is going to replace the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service now the 15:14 Cardiff - Swansea service is retimed to 15:30 and will run through to Fishguard Hbr.

The idea i suggested was the run the 18:20 Cardiff - Holyhead  expess service from Swansea at 17:10 and run non stop  through Pyle so that it doesnt delay london service behind to re-time the 16:55 & 17:55 Manchester services from Swansea to leave a few minutes earlier so that they have additional time to make a stop at Pyle (Means that commutors to Pyle get a  additional & faster journey's from Swansea during the evening peak)

Isn't it two 150s that ATW lend to FGW? I think I saw both today, ATW don't run any services on any English part of the FGW Portsmouth - Cardiff route do they? I doubt my two sightings of ATW liveried 150s while in England and on the Portsmouth - Cardiff were the same unit.

I thought they had reduced the no. of units they hired to FGW to just 1, but i could have been wrong.

A feasbility study has been launched into re-opening fishguard & goodwick station there also a small possibility  that it could be opened in time for the new services (a tempory platform mind you)

further news at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-13703089

Had a bit of a shock tonight was that the 20:10 Cardiff - Manchester services is formed of a Class 158 + Class 150 + 158 x 2. I suspect some of the consit could be dropped off onroute at shrewsbury/crewe.

Also with Swansea city now playing in the premiership this year is suspect a few of the manchester services will be a lot busier  if Swansea are playing away at Manchester united or against them at home.

I wonder if we could get some football specials again?

So was that a 6 carriage train? Is that the one that starts from Maesteg? I noticed a few strange formations yesterday as well. The 1455 from Swansea to Manchester was a 150, the daytime swanline that doesnt go to Shrewsbury at all was a pacer, (usually its a 150) plus the other swanline, the 13.10 from Swansea was a 158 attached to a pacer I think.

8 carriages train as it was formed of a class 150 and class 158 (X3)

I think   2 class 158's were detached at Shrewsbury with the class 150 caming off at Crewe with only the class 158 at the front of the train evetually getting to Manchester

On the 11.50 to Pembroke Dock yesterday I passed the 158+Pacer just outside Llanelli. Couldn't work out what it was, so I checked the online departure boards, and it appeared to be the 10.55 from Llanelli (the Pembroke Dock-Whitland-Swansea run) which had run on time until Llanelli and then left there at 12.05 because of a train fault. The Carmarthen-Manchester and Pembroke Dock-Paddington had then been held up behind it.

On the curve out of Whitland, passengers behind me noticed the cant and thought it must have  been tilting because that's what 125s do! The other 2 Pembroke diagrams were a 142 and 150, with the 150 on the service that goes through Tenby around 5pm, which is popular with day trippers returning home. Hopefully it's a sign of things to come for this summer.

I wonder if the Pacer had failed at Llanelli and the 158 then sent to rescue it. If that's the case, I'm quite impressed that they managed to find a spare 158 and a driver for the journey from Cardiff (can't imagine there's a spare set any nearer). It must have then been put on the 13.10 to take it back to Canton; the 12.20 Swanline arrival must then have been swapped onto its diagram on the 12.35 to Carmarthen, and the arrival from Shrewsbury that should have continued as the 13.10 sent back to Shrewsbury on the 13.15ish.

On Saturday the 10xx from Cardiff to Milford was a 158 so perhaps that was swapped at some point and then became the 13.10 Swanline (with pacer attached). The 1455 from Swansea which should have been that 158 (13xx from Milford) was a 150 so was swapped at some point.

Anyone know how many units are needed for the valley/cardiff local services? And generally how many pacers and 150s. I ask because trying to work out how many150s and pacers are available for elsewhere on the ATW network.  Pacers only tend to be used on swanline and pembroke services other than the valleys/cardiff services.

25 Pacers on Vallery and 19 x 150s (some part time only)

OK thanks. The vast majority of pacers then and more 150s than I expected. That only leaves 12x 150s for elsewhere and they do get used on some Heart of Wales, Pembroke Dock, Swanline services plus some local services up North, Fishguard and Ebbw Vale (unless thats counted as a valley service). 

Some valley services seem to be 4 cars - so either a pacer and 150 together or 2 pacers. I heard they were meant to have some 6 car formations.

Valley 4 Cars are pairs of Pacers.  150s work Ebbw Vale (not Cardiff Valley route), Fishguard, Wrexham/Bidston, Blaenau Ffestiniog and share some Maesteg/Cheltenhams with 158s
Heart of Wales usually only if deputising for 153 but some workings on Sundays.   
Pembroke Docks are 153s except at Weekends when Pacers, 150s, 175s and 158s can be seen.

Ebbw Vales services are all worked by class 150's running in pairs on saturdays so all  are 4 carriages ( certainly needed and even then some services are standing room only) there was talk of the ebbw vale line requiring 6 carriage trains at certain times in the future.

 I have see a pacer & class 150 attached together a few times on the services to Abedare etc. The platforms From Treherbert were all lengthened to allow 6 carriage trains to operates, but lack of rolling stock is what is causing the lack of trains that long.

 class 153's can been seen regulary on the cityline services on saturdays normally allowing the pacers/ class 150's to be sent down to west wales.

 I do  hope that the class 121 is repaired and back in service soon to free up the unit which does the cardiff bay route  either that or copy London Midland and purchase a parry people mover. Thta displaced unit could boost capacity elsewhere on the ATW network.

158838 was working together with a class 153 & 150 on the 15:33 departure from Swansea to Manchester which is diverted via Wrexham.

Nice finally have a go on the refurbished interior which was great as all the students coming back from Pembrey decided to cram all into the class 150 with the class 158 quite empty

Back to the new Fishguard services, I recived a reply/acknowledgment to my responce to the consultation. One passage stands out
Bold formatting added by me. Where is this additional unit? For starters, without using more LHCS the only place they could be getting additional rolling stock resources from is the return of leased 150s from FGW, and that's 2 units not one. Secondly, I cannot see how this service would not be possible with ATW's current fleet. From previous discussions on this topic and a study of the present timetable the diagrams seem to be:

1st Diagram:
---------------------------
175xxx (from Sept.):
05:50 CMN - FGH
06:53 FGH - Clarbeston Rd.
07:33 Clarbeston Rd. - FGH
08:06 FGH - MAN

175xxx (present):
05:43 CMN - PMD
07:09 PMD - MAN
----------------------------------
2nd Diagram:
----------------------------------
09:00 HOWL service off Shrewsbury, running through to Cardiff arriving 14:15 followed by:
15:14 CDF - SWA (present)
17:10 SWA - CDF (present)

From Sept. that would be:
15:30 CDF - FGH
18:49 FGH - WTL
19:38 WTL - FGH
20:16 FGH - CMN

and, in the morning:
05:43 CMN - PMD
07:09 PMD - SWA
----------------------------------
That leaves 2 153s 06:42 CDF - CMN, which then go their seperate ways and, apart from one CMN - SWA - CMN working being ditched from September for a Fishguard service, results in both units running the same PMD - SWA runs all day. Of these, the diagram for one unit (ending it's day at Carmarthen) is completly unchanged. The other gets to Swansea at 23:45 in any case and my guess is it then runs the night Fishguard followed by the 04:36 HOWL service off Swansea.

Do those diagrams look correct to you? Two concerns I have are:

• The 153 that starts at Cardiff and currently seems to end it's day at Carmarthen (at 20:28) after running Pembroke services. Unless the third (and presumablly final) Pembroke diagram that does not go to Manchester starts from Carmarthen (somthing you'll have to inform me about) I can't see what there is for it to do in the morning at present.
  
• Of the two 153s that leave Canton at 06:42 neither get back, how does Canton not run out of 153s to send out every morning?

Now, I'm going to assume the unit off the current 17:10 SWA - CDF has no more work to do after that. I'm also going to assume ATW extend the WAG 2 unit to start from SWA to cover for the lost 17:10 SWA - CDF. In this case, since all services seem to still be covered, there doesn't seem to be any reason for requiring an additional unit. The only thing that we might not be picking up on is peak strengthening of valleys services, and with the unit for the 15:14 CDF - SWA coming off a daytime HOWL service from Shrewsbury that looks unlikely. Therefore, only one question remains, how does the unit off the 1st Pemborke, reaching SWA at 09:23, get back to Shrewsbury to form the next day's 15:30 CDF - FGH?

If I'm right, not only is the service achiveable even without the additional unit they claim to need, that 153 arriving at Swansea at 09:23 has nothing to do all day until it heads off back to Shrewsbury. So, here's a not fully checked (eg. could cause a head-on-colision on the Gowerton single track or completly screw up the diagraming) suggestion for new services the unit could run after that:
10:11 SWA - CDF (new Swanline service)
Refuel at Canton
13:33 CDF - FGH (arrive 15:51, thanks to Swansea District Line, 5hr gap - plugged)
16:00 FGH - SWA (arrive 17:45, in time for the unit to go off to Shrewsbury on the 18:21 HOWL)

I have a funny felling that they could do what they do on Sundays which is have a service from Swansea to Cardiff at around 23:45.

This could help get the class 153's back to Canton ready for the early morning service.

I normally commute from Pyle on the 06:42 so i will see in september what happens when the conductor annouces that the train is going to Pembroke Dock & Fishguard Hbr.

1 way to free up a class 150 is to use the loco hauled stock from WAG 1 as when it arrives from Holyhead in the Morning it has about 45 minutes available in canton before it needs to work to Fishguard and with it going over to class 67 & dvt it shouldnt be a problem turning the train at Carmarthen.


I too agree with WAG 2 starting from Swansea at 17:10 however with the tight timings i wouldnt stop it at Pyle and instead re-time the 16:55 & 17:55 departures from Swansea to Manchester to leave about 16:50&  17:50 and have them make a additional stop @ Pyle

Saw the evening WAG Express from Cardiff to Holyhead on Monday formed 2 instead of 3 coach 175.       Half a coach at the most would have accomodated the passengers. Good old WAG.

Trying to get my head around the workings... for clarity I believe the current Pembroke diagrams, i.e. the principal non-175 workings in the area, based on a combination of observations and the 2007 diagrams on the web...

[1]
6.42 CDF-PMD (actually ex-Hereford having gone up there the night before)
(Split at CMN)
PMD-SWA
14.00 SWA-PMD
17.09 PMD-SWA
19.35 SWA-CMN

[2]
6.42 CDF-CMN
9.00 CMN-SWA
10.05 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
16.00 SWA-PMD
19.19 PMD-TEN-PMD (Connect with Manchester at Tenby)
21.09 PMD-SWA
Then night Fishguard and HoW

[3]
5.50 SWA-PMD (Canton ECS or formed off [1]?)
PMD-SWA
12.00 SWA-PMD
PMD-SWA
17.35 SWA-CMN
19.06 CMN-CDF

Canton also sends a 153 out on the 8.xx CDF-SWA-SHR and one returns on the 22.32 SWA-CDF (ex 18.05 SHR-SWA).

The 2007 diagrams suggest [3] is formed by ECS from Canton in the small hours.
Any ideas what happens to [1] at the end? On Saturdays it attaches to the PMD-CDF, but on weekdays that's a 175 starting at Tenby. Maybe it's used on the 5.50 or runs ECS to Cardiff?

Now that there's an additional 175 to Tenby, things have changed a bit, but for the last couple of years it's been the case that everything that started in CMN on a weekday morning (and therefore ended there at night) was a 175. I don't know if the first up Swanline is still a 175 in the new timetable. (Will be working in Cardiff from next week so I'll look out for it...)

ATW seems to have a lot of 153-operated services for a fleet of (last time I checked) 8. The above 3, another 3 for the joint Swanline/HoW diagrams, whatever they need up north (Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury-Crewe?), and one can often be seen at Cardiff Bay. Hence 150s often substituting on any of the above. Most seem to start/end the day at Cardiff, 2 at Hereford (assuming the pair starts there together), and a couple up north at Shrewsbury or wherever.


Peak strengthening on the Valleys is the source of the daytime Fishguard train - it arrives about 10.40 at CDF Platform 4 and splits. In the evening it goes to Cheltenham in lieu of a train from Maesteg, which terminates at CDF and I assume then goes to evening Valleys work.
I think the 'other' Swanline diagram (9.14 and 13.14 ex CDF) is used for Valleys strengthening in the peaks.

One way to fill the daytime gap to Fishguard would be to use another valleys peak set to run CDF-FGH-CDF about an hour ahead of the boat train. I assume they won't because it would need extra funding for the CDF-CMN parts of the journey, which would be outside of the remit of the WAG funding for the 5 services.


I'm confused by the reference to going back to Shrewsbury :-)

A set goes up to SHrewsbury thus:
8.xx CDF-SWA-SHR
14ish SHR-SWA
18.21 SWA-SHR

But I agree with the confusion about what happens next to the 9.23 arrival from PMD. This is the big missing link, as it does seem to be an 'extra' set from what I can tell. Maybe it goes to CDF and is used in the Valleys in the evening. It would be nice if it could be used for some extra Swanline workings, or even some shuttles to Pantyffynnon/Ammanford/Llandeilo, but I suppose then someone has to pay to run them!

It has been suggested here before that the first Pembroke train is very busy, hence it going 2 car in the form of the Manchester train. So presumably going back to 153 would be a bad idea...?

Set 1 attaches Carmarthen  to 21 09 ex Pembroke Dock, stays coupled to Fishguard and then 05 50 Swansea to Pembroke Dock. There could be ecs ex Canton for 05.50 High Summer when services strengthened.      The 2 Sets ex Hereford work 00.30 Cardiff to Hereford and the 09 23 arrival Swansea ex Pembroke Dock is a through service to Manchester (sits at Swansea until 09.55) and 175 worked.

The extra services to Fishguard don't seem to affect any service worked by that diagram, no extra unit needed here.

As the consultation document made clear, the 10:05 SWA - PMD is to be replaced with a 10:56 CMN - PMD, with the 09:00 CMN-SWA replaced by the 08:06 Fishguard - MAN (using the 175 taken away from the 1st Pembroke). Instead of the 09:00 CMN - SWA and the SWA - CMN portion of the 10:05 SWA - PMD the unit will work to Fishguard and back, resuming it's current diagram with no further changes. No extra unit needed here either.

Not involved in Fishguard services, no extra unit needed here.


The 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) is a new service between SWA and CMN, although you could argue the same number of services exist on this line because the 10:05 SWA - PMD will no longer run SWA - CMN.

Wasn't my diagram for the unit that forms the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) correct? It apparently comes down from Shrewsbury on the 09:00 HOWL, what goes down must go up! If you don't send a unit back up, there'd be nothing to form the next day's service down.

Well, the unit off the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) ends the day at CMN by the looks of things, adding a non-175 unit (which would be the only such one going by your suggestion that everything stabled at CMN overnight right now is a 175) to those staying at CMN overnight. There's no other working back so logicly it'd take the 1st Pembroke that was vacated by the Manchester. That covers all the services without any extra units, unless, somehow, having the unit off the 15:30 CDF - Fishguard (Swanline) stabled at CMN rather than Canton prevents morning peak lengthening.

Thanks for explaining what set 1 does at the end of the day. The 09:23 arrival ex Pembroke Dock is a through service to Manchester in the current timetable, as you say. However, from September that 09:55 SWA - MAN will (unless they change the planned timetable) orriginate from Fishguard rather than Pembroke. After leaving Fishguard, the train will depart Carmarthen at 09:00 so avoiding the long wait at Swansea for through passengers but orphaning the first Pembroke service. As I say, I cannot find where this fabled extra unit is needed and see no reason why that 09:23 arrival from the 1st Pembroke couldn't run a 10am-ish Swanline, re-fuel at Canton and run back to Fishguard to plug the 5-hour gap in the planned timetable.

05:39 Cardiff - Milford Haven (Swanline) is worked by a 2 carriage class 175.

However, with regards to the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock service most of the time on a saturday its formed of just 1 class 153.

The 05:50 Swansea - Pembroke Dock services is somtimes worked by a unit which comes down empty from canton depot even during the winter months. I have seen it pass through Bridgend/Pyle at about 05:10

On a Saturday the Pembroke Dock - Manchester has its long wait at Carmarthen, with the CMN-SWA running in the earlier slot arriving at SWA at 9.23. Therefore the 6.42 runs too late to drop off a set to form the CMN-SWA. So I guess the 5.50 on a Saturday does the split instead, supplemented by ECS from Canton...?


When it didn't form that last working to Carmarthen (i.e. until May) it ended at Swansea at 19.23ish. Presumably it just laid over until 5.50, or did it go back to Canton?


The rest of the 153s would currently be something like this:

[1-3]
As above.
Often 2 car (mainly Pacers last year) during the high summer (July/August), but [2] tends to remain 153 because of its HoW duties the next day. The equivalent Saturday diagrams are always 2 car throughout the summer timetable.

[4]
8.08 CDF-SWA-SHR
14.xx SHR-SWA
18.21 SWA-SHR
This takes a fresh unit to Shrewsbury.

[5]
5.xx SHR-SWA-CDF
11.14 CDF-SWA
13.15ish SWA-SHR
18.05 SHR-SWA
22.32 SWA-CDF
This returns a unit from Shrewsbury to Canton. I've occasionally seen 3 cars on the morning working for this purpose.

[6]
4.xx SWA-SHR (Off the [2] the day before)
9.xx SHR-SWA-CDF
15.14 CDF-SWA-CDF

[7...8?]
Whatever's needed up north for Conwy Valley (is Shrewsbury-Crewe still 153 as well?).
[4] and [5] move sets between Canton and Shrewsbury for these services.

So from September [2] and [6] are modified.

So going back to the above question, does [6] answer it?


I still don't follow :-S If the 9.23 arrival from PMD can't be slotted into one of the above assumed diagrams (given that we can't see what it would do next) surely it must be a "new" unit. It does seem right that [6] will finish at CMN and form the first PMD service the next day, but changing where a diagram ends doesn't change the total number of sets available; if [6] is ending its day at CMN, we lose a set ending at Canton.

One possibility that springs to mind is that there could be some juggling with the two Swanline/HoW journeys that cross at SWA after 9am. IIRC the proposed timetable says existing services could be altered...

Purely speculation/suggestion as to what could happen... perhaps the 8.08  from Cardiff could be cut back to SWA, in which case it could just about be formed by the arrival from PMD if it's moved a bit earlier. If that were the case, the Swanline stops could be covered by the earlier Milford Haven train if it had a shorter dwell at CDF, which would in fact even out the morning down Swanline service.

Another thought occurs that it might just languish at SWA until 17.10 because no-one has paid for a crew to take it anywhere until then.

On Saturdays it's suggested that there will be a 10.05 SWA-PMD for it to form... which then means the FGH-CMN has nothing to do (couple to the 10.05 perhaps).

The first Swanline which starts at Carmarthen and leaves Swansea around 0710 is still a 175 as far as I know. It then forms the 9.20 Cardiff-Holyhead.

Are we sure all of the Pembroke Docks and HOW are booked as 153s? There are only 8 of them and quite often ive seen a 150 on a lot of HOW and Pembroke's recently. I also think the Swanline that doesnt interact with HOW is booked as a 150?

I noticed the Miford Service that leaves Cardiff at 08xx this morning was a 158. That would work the 11xx back from Milford and eventually reach Manchester and run the 1730 back to Cardiff.

I've often wondered... if the Conwy Valley and Shrewsbury-Crewe are both 153s, that makes 8 diagrams, and last time I went to Cardiff Bay that was being covered by a 153 as well, suggesting they still had one spare. From what I've seen, all the Pembroke, HoW and HoW-Swanline units seem to have been 153s on weekdays over the last few months, with fairly random coverage by 150s. I wonder if one of the Pembrokes is officially a 150, or perhaps a 150 is booked to cycle around them through the week. I caught the Hereford-Pembroke a few weeks ago, and it was 150+153, but in the past 153+153 seemed quite common, but it does vary. A year or so ago I was semi-regular on the 15.14 CDF-SWA on Fridays for a couple of months and it seemed almost 50/50 150/153.

The non-HoW Swanline does seem to be a 150, which would fit in with it being a Valleys peak unit.

I dont have first hand experience of the Shewsbury-Crewe local service but a friend told me its still a 153. However I think the Shrewsbury and Crewe local, Conwy Valley, HOW, Pembroke and Swanline all tend to use 153's but because there arent quite enough of them they use 150s to fill the gaps.  What runs the Wrexham local service plus the Crewe-Chester service? Are these 153s as well?

I think Cardiff Bay tends to be a mix of 153 and pacers. I even saw a 150 one day but later in the day it was a pacer so perhaps they just take off the valley's whatever is available.  Any news on the 121 coming back into service?  On a Saturday ive even seen a 153 on a valley line service, not for a while tho, possibly the last time was last Summer and they obviously swapped a pacer  and I assume used the pacer on Pembroke Dock.

The other swanline does seem to be a 150, very rarely a 153. On a Saturday its often a pacer tho so I assume that 150 is used on the valleys on Saturdays.

Regarding diagram 3 which you mention above, i notice that now forms the 19xx from Carmarthen to Cardiff and therefore the fast service from Swansea at around 2000 which used to go to Crewe etc but now goes as far as Cardiff. I have noticed that has been a mix of 153/150 and even a pacer on occasions (possibly Saturdays). It also explains why they terminate it at Cardiff and dont send it via the marches to Crewe and beyond now its not a 175. The 175 now obviously swaps with the local train at Tenby and forms the Swanline that leaves Swansea around 2130. This also spends the night at Canton it woulds seem.

Also the new 1804 Swanline which used to go at 1738 and be an extension of the Ebbw Vale service (still is on a Saturday), that is a 150, where does this come from? I assume its taken off the Valleys? Or perhaps its the one that terminates at Cardiff around 1620.

When North Wales transferred to Wales & Borders, a couple of 153s were moved from First North Western to W&B to cover Wrexham-Bidston, but a few years ago ATW reported that the line was going over to 2-car operation, i.e. 150s. That was around the time that some extra 150s moved to ATW, possibly in exchange for 153s.


The pattern of valleys usage is probably different on a Saturday, which would have some bearing on that unit. Ebbw Vale's Saturday strengthening also springs to mind as a destination for the 150. Speculating a bit, I wonder if the extra 150s needed for Ebbw Vale, even more so on Saturdays, are the reason for Pacers becoming so common when 2 car units go to Pembrokeshire.


It could still come off the Ebbw Vale unit; perhaps the 18.3x arrival just shunts out of the way and returns for the 18.04.

the Shrewsbury to Crewe local is formed of whatever runs on the 18:21 from Swansea. So lets say tonights 18:21 is 153320 thats Crewe tomorrow and Saturdays 05:19.

Yes the Shrewsbury to Crewe local is probabaly formed of the previous days HOW service so I guess a mix of 150/153 but mainly 153's.

Just seen the 1905 (or whatever time it is) from Carmarthen-Cardiff pass and it was a 150 tonight.

I assume the 150s on Wrexham will need to go back to Cardiff at some point tho so they would be swapped? Im guessing on Saturdays there is a lot more units required than weekdays with the leisure communters on the valleys plus on Pembroke/HOW. It just makes it a lot more busy so I guess they move units about a bit. Could be why some 158's appear on the Cardiff-Manchesters on weekends too as some extra 175's are needed in North Wales??

Shrewsbury Crewe Local 150 Wunter 153 Summer
Blaenau Ffestiniog 153 Winter 150 Summer.     They change over seasonally to provide more carriages to Blaenau Ffestiniog
150 works 21 50 Shrewsbury to Crewe to work North (Bidstons also)  and 23 08 Shrewsbury Cardiff in opposite direction.

That seems to be done on the morning peak Chester-Maesteg service. And I guess one of the evening trains from Cardiff takes one back up, hence not running through from West Wales...?

Any ideas what is actually booked for the aforementioned Chester-Maesteg (8.20ish CDF)? A couple of years ago it sometimes seemed to be 150+158 which split at CDF, allowing both types to circulate into the south, but it seemed to vary a bit.

If 150s alternate with 153's on the Crewe local services and Conwy Valley then that would mean the 8th 153 could be used on Cardiff Bay!

True. I think the morning Chester-Maesteg is often a 150

I havent heard anything about the ATW class 121, last i heard it was a shorttage of parts which was delaying it being out back into service. I hope they can get it out by sepetmber that should free up a pacer or class 153 which is currently being used.

Morning Chester to Maesteg is 158 and northbound balance is 20 17 Cardiff to Manchester.
after working Maesteg to Cheltenhams over three day period.   Chester Crewe locals are 158 (SX) 150 (Sat), the latter going up Attached Friday night on 21 50
Hafren, I have already explained how the 150s change over.  Swanline booked Pacer Sats when not so many Units on Valleys, some 2 cars instead of 4.

Slightly off topic but 153303 had to be used to cover for a class 175 at Whitchurch (Brakes not releasing or something) tonight.

This formed the 19:31 Crewe- Manchester Piccadilly & the 20:30  Manchester - Cardiff Central (Ow joy for anyone doing the full trip)

I look forward to seing how ATW cope with extra passengers traveling to/from swansea when swansea city are playing/


I had an idea while waiting for the train this afternooon. my idea is:

15:05 Cardiff Central - Swansea ( Arr 16:05) WAG2 stock - makes additional call at Pyle at 15:34. Then forms a  17:10 Swansea - Cardiff- Holyhead service which will call at the swanline stations but not Pyle. This should alow this service to reach Bridgend at 17:50 and keep out of the way of the London service following behind.

Whilst the WAG to is formed of a DMU till at least december it should be able to cope with the timings, a loco hauled set would require slighly extra time to cope with all the stops, so the idea of missing out Pyle should allow for this.


15:14 swanline service from Cardiff would  depart at 15:34 and run to Swansea missing out Pyle allowing it to arrive into Swansea at 16:30. this would then form the 16:40 service from Swnasea to Fishguard Hbr.

The 16:55 & 17:55 departtures from Swansea to Manchester Piccadilly will be retimed to depart Swansea at 16:53 & 17:53 with  them calling at Pyle at 17:18 & 18:18. and still reach Cardiff before 17:50 & 18:50. to do this these service's would have to leave Carmarthen a few minutes earlier and possibly skip out Ferryside, kidwelly etc with the 16:29 service from Carmarthen - Swansea covering for this.

Simple answer, they'll do nothing. I had a trip to Cardiff a few days back, boarding the 2-car 175 on the Milford Haven - Manchester service at Whitland. All went well until just before Pembrey and Burry Port where a manual anouncement asked everyone to remove their bags from seats as they were expecting a large number of passengers to board at Pembrey and Burry Port. This turned out to be an understatement, as after alot of passengers crammed aboard the staff decided they'd have to leave a large number of passengers behind on the platform. Alot of passengers where left sitting on the platform at Llanelli also.

I found out later that some event (a concert of some sort I think) was on which has been running for a few years. If Arriva knew far enough in advance (which they should have done, otherwise it is the event's organisers who are at fault and should have informed ATW), couldn't they have at least diagramed a 3-car 175 rather than the 2-car set we were landed with? Even better, they could have hired some locomotives (perhaps the 2 class 50s I saw while passing Canton) or used the loco off the WAG express and put on a extra service using their stored mark2s, ECS Canton to Pembrey or Carmarthen via the Swansea District Line then back to Cardiff with the passengers). Surely with the number of passengers involved (at least if they used the WAG express 57 they are paying for anyway) the ticket revenye would cover the cost of the extra service. Instead, everyone had to try and squeese onto that 2-car 175.

The problem with strengthening services from West Wales is that services will have to be cancelled elsewhere just like FGW cancelled many Cardiff services for Glastonbury services. I don't think it would have been possible to cancel services without causing problems for many day to day users of the railway. Then the problem of hiring in stock would be who would be willing to provide stock to transport thousands of students covered in mud to wherever. However I will say that maybe a few extended HST's could have been a good idea starting to/from Carmarthen next year when the Beach Break festival returns. Could even travel via Swansea District line so that it could return within reasonable time to reduce numbers of canellations in the South Wales area

ATW class 121, is now back in action , finally

Is it? Excellent stuff. I was hoping to get the opportunity to ride on it at some point  :)

 seems that once word got out a lot of train enthusiasts decended onto the line to have a trip on it.

Ow yes network rail has a test train hauled by 2 class 37's which is running around swansea & the district line tommorow and is expected to visit all the west wales branches on wednesday

I only have timings for when it is expected through Claberston Road:  these are: 07.20, 08.02 and 10.20

The test train was in Maliphant sidings this afternoon; I think I saw a yellow flash passing near Cardiff around midday.

Re the extras for Beach Break, it's worth noting that ATW does quite well with providing stock for Royal Welsh Show, although it does seem to involve a bit of juggling in the Valleys, with 153s giong to Coryton and some Pacer-vice-150 swaps. However, that probably involves a bit of planning in terms of ensuring maximum availability for the week, and the RWS specials are a long-established provision and so the momentum is already there. And of course RWS has a bit more political value than Beach Break. Also, on a line with a relatively frequent service, it might be hard to ensure people travel on the one or two extra or strengthened journeys, but would be ways to encourage it.

The endless supply of 153s has been going strong: not only one on the Coryton/City route on Saturday, but one on Friday as well.

Interesting to know the 121 is back in service. Perhaps I will have a ride on it.

doesnt work on sundays be warned.

What was being used on Pembroke Dock and HOW today? I noticed one of the Swanlines, the 11xx from Cardiff which goes on to form the 13xx HOW was a 153 and 150.  A pacer was on the other swanline diagram.

The 1455 from Swansea-Manchester was a 158 - thats a popular one for 158s to run.

I noticed a lot of 150s today on Maesteg - surprising for a Saturday when the 150s are needed for extra capacity on the Valley's/Ebbw Vale/Pembroke etc. Where were the 158's apart from that one I saw on the Manchester service.

I travelled on the Cardiff Bay line today and it was a pacer (142). Is the 121 out of service again already, or perhaps because it was a busy Saturday they decided to put a pacer on for extra capacity? Seemed to be a lot of pacers in use today in the Cardiff/Valleys area as well as the daytime swanline/pembroke dock and the daytime fishguard.

The 1455 from Swansea-Cardiff (Manchester) which i caught up to Cardiff was a 158 - is this one booked 158 as it almost always seems to be on a Saturday.

yes i think the 14:55 is now booked for a class 158.

the 15:00 from Swansea to Carmarthen/Milford Haven has a habbit of a class 158 turning up on it at times.

noted yesterday a class 142 & 153 working in multiple on the Ebbw Vale - Cardiff route. ATW had a few problems yesterday with at least 2 of their class 150's i know 1 was booked to work the 17:20 Cardiff - Holyhead service not too sure what was wrong with it but 1 of teh engines did not seem to be too healthy. I left the station before it left but i read online last night that   a class 150 was taken off 1 of the ebbw vale diagrams to work the 17:20 Cardiff to Holyhead with the other set being sent back to Canton.

142 + 153 combination booked 18 35 cardiff to Ebbw Vale Saturdays.    142 was off 17 17 ex Treherbert as booked but working vice 150.    153 booked on this off 17 10 Swansea Swanline

It was the 1155 Swansea-Manchester that was a 158 yesterday, not sure about the 1455. Also one of the swanlines was a pacer, i think that might be booked on a Saturday now.

What is running Pembroke Dock these days - both Weekdays and Saturdays? Are all diagrams 2 car, either pacers, 150s or 2x153's on both weekdays and weekends for the summer?

14 55 Swansea Saturdays booked 158.  Swanline booked Pacer Sats.     Pembroke Docks High Summer 2 x 153, and 2 Pacers.

Thanks.

2 x 150s on the extra train from Cardiff to Builth Road.

Pitys its not a loco hauled train.

Is that in the alternative railway which is run with no regard to cost for the benefit of trainspotters?  ???

Paul

I do not know what took place today but usually the normal Heart of Wales trains are worked by 150 + 153 to strengthen in place of just the Dogbox

This is Wales we're talking about. Where they already run one loco-hauled vanity service with no regard to cost.  :P ;) ;D

Ah yes - the special service for the wives and girlfriends...

Paul

Surely it would be for the benefit of passengers too, not just trainspotters. With a shortage of rolling stock anyway, putting several 150s onto the HOWL would likely result in services normally being 150s instead being formed of a 153 or Pacer. Strengthing one area has knock on impacts elsewhere unless the stock used for the strengthening isn't normally used, eg. Arriva's non-premeir LHCS. It can't be all that expensive to use LHCS on the HOWL extras, they've done it before.

And the WAG is paying all that money for the trains, surely they should make sure they get value for their money.

Hopefully whoever gets  the next welsh franchise will get a long enough term so that they will be more willing to invest in new rolling stock.

Whats been on pembrokes and down this area this week

It's been high summer for a couple of weeks, so strengthening on weekdays as well as weekends. When I've passed the 6.42 CDF-PMD it's been a single Pacer (normally 2x 15x, was 2x Pacer for high summer last year) - so I wonder what is being used to form the 9.00ish CMN-SWA, which is usually detached from it at Carmarthen.

The 153s seem to have been doing unusual things. On a couple of occasions there's been a 153 sitting at Swansea around 7am. One day there was a pair of them running empty through Bridgend around 8am - not sure what it would have been doing! Yesterday 153s were used on Cheltenham-Maesteg, at least in the evening. I would guess that when resources are stretched by summer strengthening, there is more ad hoc use of units.

Last Saturday the 16.30ish from Pembroke Dock was 2x153, and the other 2 diagrams were Pacers. A few weeks ago the 16.xx was a 150, so a good sign that only 2 Pacers are booked; all 3 Saturday diagrams were Pacers all summer last year.

Slight hitch on the HST recently! The platforms at Tenby are at the Carmarthen end of the loop. So a down HST will stop past the end of the platform, with the rear 6 cars platformed (C-F in normal formation), so that it is clear of the points and token section. Sometimes they stop short first, to drop off bikes, and then draw forward before releasing the doors. Yesterday it was announced that A&B wouldn't be platformed, with nothing about stopping for bikes first, and then it stopped with the power car at the end of the platform, i.e. with A-F platformed. The TM, who was at the doors between B & C, got off and spoke to the driver as he walked up, with a lot of pointing towards the stop board, but people just got off and they left it in that position, with first class off the platform. People who had queued up to move up to coach C must have been confused to see their coaches fully platformed!

Are there still problems with 175 availability? For a couple of weeks the first Milford-Manchester was regularly short-formed, making it a bit 'cosy' by the time it reaches Cardiff just before 9am! Monday before last it was a 2 car with no reservation labels, and being around the start of the holidays, there were several families going to Blackpool, who were unable to find their reserved seats. One person in particular was ranting quite a lot about not being able to take the right ("guaranteed") seats... even though he and his family had found seats, albeit with the baby on the mother's knee. He was going on about having to sit like that for the next 4 hours; it never seemed to occur to him that a lot of people might get off quite soon, given that the train arrives at Cardiff just before 9am!

The conductor came through later on, and responded well to his complaint. He ended up turfing people out of unlabelled reserved seats so the groups could sit together, and managed to keep everyone calm despite the crowding and certain people being potentially a bit difficult, so good service there where he could have just done nothing. Fortunately after that 3 car sets were used every day for almost a week... until last Monday, when it was a 2 car again, but fortunately with reservations marked. (I've no idea since then as I've moved back to the 7.28...)

One thing that strikes me is that there are not often announcements to explain short formations. On a 150 on Cardiff-Portsmouth recently, people were tutting about the silliness of providing a 2 car train on such a busy journey. Perhaps the conductor could have pointed out that it wasn't booked for 2 cars, with the 150 being a substitute, and they're quite lucky that FGW found a replacement set at all - short form is better than cancellation!

Hopefully things should start to become a bit better for ATW now that FGW have started to receive  some class 150's from London Midland.

 I hope now that there are no more delays which should mean the end of ATW having to hire 2 class 150's a day to FGW.

This should give ATW a bit of relief as they wont have to stretch their fleet as much.

As for the class 175's they all should have been 3 carriages and as fr more DMU's i hope we either get some more class 150/153/158's as more routes in scotland, north west england are electrified although Northern , east midlands trains etc are more likely to be ahead of us in the quew for more units.

More than likely we could be lucky  after 2015 if they do wire the thames branches that FGW may have a couple of extra class 165/166's spare so providing they can be cleared to work some routes maybe ATW could get a couple.

On a Saturday the daytime swanline has been a pacer for several weeks so I think that is now booked. A couple of times ive seen the daytime fishguard as a pacer on a Saturday so up to 5 pacers in the Swansea/West Wales area if all 3 Pembrokes as pacers too.

That was good of the conductor to sort out the seating problem. I can understand passengers frustrations especially travelling with young children, however the last few times ive booked an advance ticket to Manchester (and ive used the 0745 off Swansea) they have given me the ticket which tells me im booked onto the specific train but no seat reservations?!  How many of the Manchesters are booked 2 and 3 cars? I think they all need to be 3 car, they are quite busy between Llanelli and Cardiff, and also during some parts of the day can be busy further up the marches as well.

Noticed there seem to be extra units on HOW as well as its high summer. e.g Yesterday the 0808 from Cardiff-Swansea-Shrewsbury, when I saw it at Neath it was 2 x 153s.  Also seen quite a few 150s go onto HOW.

I didnt know 153s were able to go to Maesteg or some valley lines? Perhaps ive just never seen them used on that line so I assumed they werent.

Is the 121 still on Cardiff Bay? On a Saturday especially during the summer months id think they would need more capacity than that on Cardiff Bay - a pacer or at least a 153?

the class 121 seems to cope ok now that it is back operational.

A class 153 can only do the cardiff bay, coryton & city lines services. Something to do with the steps on them making them out of gauage same with the class 158's & 175's.

 Although 175's have been cleared to work services on the rhymney line. (There was a photo in 1 of the railway magazines  at Cardiff queen St where ATW trialled 1 on the rhymney branch not long after they arrived in south wales.)

as for a class 143 to Fishguard i bet that must have been fun traveling at speed over the district Line

Some say an extra unit is required to enable the extra Fishguard services, I guess this will be one of the 2 150s released when FGW stop borrowing them. Seeing as 150s can turn up on pretty much any ATW service (the Cambrian and LHCS services being the exceptions) when they are short on units I think we will have enough suburban units to be going on with once FGW hand back the 2 150s until Pacer deadline in 2020, which hopefully will bring electrification of the ValleyLines and new EMUs. For now, I think ATW should be using more LHCS (to put on busy 175 routes) or WAG trying to get more 153s or 158s, or perhaps some 156s or 155s as part of the electrification cascades.



I think the service goes faster from Whitland to Clarbeston Road, is it a 75mph linespeed along there? Swansea District Line only 55mph max I think, not sure though might only be 50.

If they are going run a 67 & dvt on cardiff - Holyhead express services why not make more use of them and maybe have a full 2 hourly limited stop Cardiff - Holyhead service which should free up a few class 175's to increase capacity on the Llandudno - Manchester & Milford Haven - Manchester services.

The main line is 75mph (with various short slower stretches) from around Cockett to just past Clarbeston Road. The District Line is 50mph, making it slower, in terms of top speed, than the main line; its main advantage is the better pathing there are no single line sections and few other trains to slow things down.

Class 153s also work to Barry Island and Ebbw Vale  (Saturdays) and have been to Penarth.   They can also work to Rhymney and I believe one went early 2006 after a new Valley Timetable caused chaos before settling down (working vice 4 cars) .   They can work to Maesteg and been on many occasions.

I guess the rhymney route is slightly more generous gauge compared to the taff vale lines north of radyr

Yes Anthony you are correct.       Similar to 158s which are not permitted North of Radyr but the Rhymney Line OK.    Around 2004/05 they had diagrammed working to Rhymney.   They do not go now due to revised diagramming sice the big timetable change in December 2005 and their transfer away on introduction of 175s af on Manchester to West Wales services after their release from TPE on receipt of 185s.
Out of interest, 175s can be seen on Maesteg to Cheltenhams and occasionally Ebbw Vale also.

There used to be a daily diagram for a  3 carriage class 175 from Cheltenham i think it was the 17:45 Cheltenham Spa - Maesteg service.

 Not sure if this has been changed as you dont see them regulary.

The 3 car 175 diagram which went to Maesteg was and still is is the 12 39 through train from Holyhead

Looks like tonight the 1655 Manchester was late getting into Swansea and didnt depart until around 1714, this has resulted in the 17.10 Swanline departing after the 1728 FGW service, I assume to make sure the 2 faster services to Manchester and London arent delayed further. But people in Swanline stations suffer with the train over 20 mins late!

And it looks like the delayed Swanline was a 158 (refurbished) and a 153 on the back. I wonder if the delay was something seperate to the delayed Manchester service and they had to send a 158 to rescue a 153?!

or the 158 rescuing the class 153?

I do know that the timings on the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff swanline services are very tight, there have been complaints about it delaying the London service following behind, that  is 1 reason i believe why the 17:10 from swansea no longers makes a stop at pontyclun.


Anyway i have noticed that if the swanline is going to be delayed and not depart on time then it will be held and follow a few minutes after the london train has  departed from swansea. Not sure what anyone planning on catching it to connect with the london train will say. ATW are supposed to be fitting information screens to most of their stations (About time too) this will be a good thing as the lack of information is what puts some people off traveling by train from Pyle as they worry the train might be delayed/cancelled,  The 09:10 departure from Swansea is 1 such example of this.

Here are the times for  fishguard hbr services which should hopefully start with the timetable change on 11/12th sepetmber 2011.

Departures from Fishguard Hbr:

01:50 -  Swansea

06:53 - Claberston Road (For connections to Carmarthen, Swansea)

08:04 - Manchester Piccadilly

09:53 - Carmarthen

13:30 -  Cheltenham Spa (Via Swansea District Line)

19:00 -  Clarbeston Rd

20:50 - Carmarthen

Arrivals at Fishguard Hbr:

01:27 - From Swansea

06:45 - From Carmarthen

07:59  - From Clarbeston Rd

09:47 - From Whitland/Swansea (Should be formed from 1 of the units which works the 06:42 Cardiff Central - Swansea - Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock.)

13:26 - From Cardiff Central

18:34 - From Cardiff Central & Swansea

20:30  -From Clarbeston Rd

Overall a nice improvement  in the number of trains although i hope once more units start to become available that 1 will be used to plus that large gap in between trains in the afternoon.

Once the services starts hopefully money can be found to put a temporary sufface on the platform at Fishguard & Goodwick station so that it can be used by passengers.

Let us hope that this trial service will be a sucess

Regarding Fishguard, the big problem with Fishguard & Goodwick is 'mind the gap'. Somebody has carelessly slung the track away from the platform, except for at the Cardiff end of the platform, which might only be enough to open one door of the train. If it isn't going to be open by September, then I think they should wait and save the station building.

The earlier disscussions on here have led me to believe the diagrams for the Fishguard service result in one unit being available for most of the day, that could plug the 5hr gap in theroy.

I noticed today that one of the swanlines the 11.10 I think it was, was very late and quite close to the 125 at Neath, maybe 5 mins between them. It was also a pacer on a swanline, so not just saturdays that happens now. I guess the 150 that would normally run that diagram is better placed on Pembroke or HOW during the summer peak.

There was a 3 car formation on the 0808 Cardiff-Swansea-HOW service at least once this week. I wonder where the extra units are coming from to make what is often a 1 car a 3 car train!

That seems to have happened quite a lot in the last week or two. A 3 car formation is not really needed on the HoW on a weekday; perhaps part of it is detached at Swansea to add to a Pembroke train later on. There's also been an idle unit sitting at Swansea around 7.30 most days (I think every day) - usually a 153, but on one occasion a Pacer, and on one occasion a 150, a 153 and a Pacer lined up in the platform. I assume that unit joins either the 7.50 or the 10.00ish. The 6.42 from Cardiff is a single Pacer now, so nothing to split at Carmarthen, unless it's added at Swansea or just stabled at Carmarthen overnight. I don't remember any of this happening last year; the 6.42 was 2 Pacers from July and the third diagram was I think just a 153. It seems a lot of effort is being made to strengthen on weekdays since high season began this year.

Strange normally the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke dock service is either 2 class 153's or a class 150 & 153

`

06 42 Cardiff (ex Hereford Low Summer)  to Pembroke Dock booked 2 x 153 Low Summer, 1 X Pacer High Summer.  No need to differentiate between 142s and 143s as thet are regarded as 1 Fleet for operational purposes.
The HOW mentioned is booked 2 X 153 High Summer so I suspect that a 150 was substituting for a 153.

Ive been told the 0808 was 3 car all the way to Shrewsbury and 3 cars also formed the 14xx back down the HOW arriving into swansea around 1800.

Im using the 0745 Swansea- Manchester one day this week - is it back to being 3 cars again now?

The daytime Swanline was a 150 today as was everything I saw on Maesteg.  Also the 1455 from Swansea-Manchester was a 2 car 175 not the usual 158. Dont recall seeing any 158's on Manchester or Maesteg today. Perhaps the 175s are all available now?

I've only used the 7.45 a couple of times this week, but it seems to be more reliably 3-car now.

The 8.09 CDF-SHR seems to have been 3x153 on a couple of occasions, including Friday, but that's based on seeing it from a train going the other way, so not entirely reliable! If that's right, it's not as if a 150 is just substituting for a 153; could it just be that an extra 153 needs to go to Shrewsbury that night...?

Today it was a single 153 - is this as booked for Saturdays? I'd have thought Saturday would be the day 2 cars are must useful.

Has the cessation of half price travel (I assume it went ahead!) for Carmarthenshire pass holders had an effect on loadings...? It always seemed to generate a fair proportion of the HoW traffic.

I have noticed that the fishguard times are on the naional rail website

However someone has pointed this out on uk railforums, the afternnon swanline which was supposed to have been re-timed to leave at 15:30 still shows as departing at 15:14 and aparantly runs non stop between Llansamlet & Gowerton with no call at Swansea

I travelled back from Manchester on the 12.30 on Friday, very fast journey missing out Church Stretton and Craven Arms, arrived into Newport just after 15.20. The train then sat in Newport until 15.38 and arrived into Cardiff around 15.52 and then sat there until 16.04. I got back to Neath around 16.48. Its a shame the last part of the journey takes so long, it seems the new timetable is for the benefit of passengers travelling to stations before Cardiff. I know some earlier trains leaving Manchester at 11.30 and earlier dont have the long waits at Newport and Cardiff but it just made the jouney suddenly seem longer after flying down the marches line to Newport.

I noticed a 158 (refurbished) was on one of the swanlines yesterday??

There is a possibility that a class 158 could apear on the 09:55 Fishguard Hbr - Carmarthen service on 12th september when the  new services will be officially launched

What makes you think that? That working is what we thought would split off the 06:42 and then go onto Pembroke Dock services afterwards isn't it? The 13:30 boat train is the one that needs a 158 I think.

Well since the  class 158's are in WAG livery, what better unit to show off to the press when services are officailly launched although you could be right and it could be a class 150

A few 158s are in WAG livery yes, and one of them would be a good unit to use for a press-launch, but service wise the direct train to Manchester is nearer to being the first of the new trains (it's not actualy the 1st of course) I seem to remember and unlike the Pembroke Dock service is the sort of run you'd expect something like a 158 (or more likely a 175 in this area) on. Is there even going to be a press launch? I haven't heard of any fanfare anouncing the timetable.

It's perhaps been a while since I made my plaintive plea, chaps - but please, could you just use 'reply', rather than 'reply with quote', whenever possible?

Thanks, Chris.  ;)

Was waiting at Pyle this morning at 05:05 when i was passed by a class 143 which went through empty stock to Swansea to work the 05:50 Swansea - Pembroke Dock service. I was thinking about ATW if it might be possible to run this as a passenger service if they can get a guard for it.

Another idea was to run the early morning Fishguard Hbr - Swansea service to Cardiff instead which would depart fishguard at 02:00 arriving  in cardiff at 04:20 this would then form a 04:42 Cardiff - Swansea - Carmarthen- Pembroke dock service which would also convey anotther unit which would form an 06:10 Swansea - Cardiff service which will form a peak hour service  from Cardiff to Ebbw Vale with the 06:44 Maesteg - Ebbw Vale service being replaced by an 06:14 Maesteg - Cheltenham Spa service which use the stock which currently comes off canton to work the 07:12 Cardiff - Cheltenham Spa.

Last weekend I caught one of the extra Swanline services from Briton Ferry (extra due to the Rugby), it was a 143, it turned up late, the guard apologised for the lateness and informed us it was due to the engine on the back car not working.  When we got to Port Talbot he informed the passengers on the rammed pacer that he recommended they get off and catch the 125 which was 4 minutes behind. I decided to stay on the pacer as I wasnt in a particular rush plus knew at least id have a seat (the amount of people waiting for the 125 on Port Talbot Parkway platform implied it would be overcrowded). I ended up travelling on the pacer all the way to Cardiff, the 125 overtook us by Margam. Some of the passengers were complaining, also some couldnt understand why the pacer didnt go faster once the 125 had passed not really understanding trains paths.

Finally got to Cardiff around half hour late, the guard did really well to control the situation tho. Do wish they would ensure they had enough stock preferably with engines working if they are to put on these extra trains. Some of the Manchesters were also making Swanline calls but some people at Briton Ferry told me due to the Manchester train being rammed with people they were told to wait for the Swanline which was 10-15 mins behind (or 25 due to the delay!) Makes it a bit pointless getting trains to make additional calls due to events if no extra capacity.

Are we expecting things to go back to normal from September on Pembroke Dock and HOW with 1 car 153's on most diagrams, as the Summer peak will be over by then.

The overnight fishguard then goes on to form the 4.35am HOW I think so its needed for that.

HOW ?

Heart of wales, and oops i forgot about that 04:35 Swansea - Shrewsbury service, pity it isnt worked by an empty stock from Carmarthen

Simply as a reminder: we do have an 'acronyms and abbreviations' page on this forum, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html which may help.  ;)

Now the last Bank Holiday of the Summer has happened and the Summer peak is all but over will we see the Pembroke Dock revert back to a 3 diagrams being run by a single 153?

Apparently last Saturday a 153 was on a Coryton service freeing up a pacer to run Pembroke Dock.

Also the Heart of Wales seems to have more 150s on it recently. Could be because a 153 is out being refurbished?

I think they have stopped or at least reduced the number for class 150's to FGW so that they can use another 150 the West wales/Heart of wales/Swanline circuit

From september 12th there should be an extra class 150 on  services to Pembroke Dock/Fishguard Hbr/Shrewsbury/Cardiff although which of the services will be worked by a class 150 or 153 will vary day to day.

I suspect with passenger numbers increasing on the swanline service that perhaps we could see more class 153's on the cityline services in cardiff displacing a pacer to release a class 150.

 Arriva have posted  the new timetables:

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/

 1st observations, the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock/Fishguard Harbour is shown as splitting at Whitland and the 15:14 Swansea - Fishguard Hbr sits in Swansea for up to 20 minutes which could be longer depending on what time it arrives into Swansea.

Am I right in thinking that the HOW Heart of Wales line (LLanelli to Shrewsbury) is the ONLY line in Britain that was Proposed for Closure Before the Great Doctor's report and yet is still open today.

I think so i cant remember any other lines which stayed open for passenger trains

My history is a little fuzzy on this one, but I have a feeling that's not correct. According to the Wikipedia entry on the Central Wales Line (so take with a pinch of salt, of course) the line wasn't slated for closure by Beeching, whose 'Reshaping of British Railways" report came out in 1963, because at the time it carried significant goods traffic and also served a steelworks at Bynea plus industry around Ammanford and Pontarddulais.

It certainly was proposed for closure shortly afterwards though, but was reprieved by Harold Wilson's government - he was in office 1964-1970 then 1974-1976, I assume the decision was made by the first administration. Gerry Fiennes relates a story in one of his books where closure plans for the line were being discussed, and it is said a civil servant produced a constituency map and pointed out "Minister, that line passes through six marginal constituencies". The current operational arrangements (i.e. Light Railway Order) date from 1972.

Looking at Section 6 of the Great Doctor's report "Passenger Services Under Consideration for Withdrawl before the Formulation of the Report".

As far as I can see the HOW is the only complete line closure , not implemented. Although of course the Swansea Victoria end closed.

However, Taunton to Castle Cary, and Princes Risborough to Banbury are marked as already implemented, presumably only  for the stopping services, with the lines reamining open for through services.

Whilst Gloucester to Chalford  stopping service withdrawal was proposed.

Also mentioned was Leicester Belgrave Road to Skegness where the Eastern part of the line from Bottesford remains open as part of Nottingham Grantham/Skegness route (ex GN) and boosts one of the newest bits of pasenger track on Network Rail.

     
153 booked Coryton Saturdays

I do think the title of this thread should be changed to south wales local services as it is now incorporating the fishguard, swanline and other services in south wales.

Update on  fishguard:

'' the 06:42 Cardiff - Pembroke Dock services will now run to Fishguard Hbr as well and will split at Whitland departing about 8 minutes after the Pembroke Dock train has departed. The 15:14 which couldnt be re-timed due to pathing issues getting the stock from canton to cardiff central, will have a 20-23 minutes wait at Swansea where it will depart at 16:40.

Also demolistion of the station at Fishgaurd & goodwick station is taking place and the station could be opened by the end of the year, Praise must go out to Pembrokeshire county council and switch and others for all the work they have done campigning to get the station re-opened and  for  the work everyone did finding the funds for it.

Track will have to be slewed towards the platform again, as it was moved by network rail last year. the council are working on getting the car park sorted for passengers and lets hope that the service will be used by local's

Done!  ;) :D ;D

Thanks! Amazing a thread I started to ask a question about Pembroke Dock services has turned into a 20+ page discussion.

Anyone know what is booked for Pembroke Dock now? Are pacers still regularly booked?

Not to sure with the new timetable starting a week monday, More than likely it will be a mixture of class 150's & class 153's same as the heart of wales & swanline's. I cant remeber if the 07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea service will be worked by a class 175 as that unit is to be used on the 08:04 Fishguard Hbr - Manchester Piccadilly service.

That said there is still the possibility that a pacer could turn up, i have noticed that the 05:50 Swansea - Pembroke dock seems to be booked regulary for a pacer set although whether that changes in  the next week or so i dont know.

I am hoping to be on the new services on monday 12th and i will have a look to see what forms the 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff service whether or not the 15:14 will be formed of 2 class 153's with 1 being detached at Swansea.

Many thanks for changing the thread title

175 Fishguard to Manchester
)

There was a pacer today on one of the swanlines plus at least 1 pembroke dock diagram.

I travelled on a refurbished 153 for the first time today (1710 swanline) - quite liked it, 153s used to be my least fave ATW train before this. Most of the 153s must have been refurbished by now.

As booked on a Saturday

Was the slewing of the track away from Fishguard & Goodwick's platform really only done last year? What a really shortsighted move that was if true, forgivable if it was done long ago.

If they have found funding for opening Fishguard & Goodwick, I really hope they get on and get all aspects of the work that require posession of the line done before the extra trains start. I can't see a good reason for demolishing the building if they don't do that, and therefore will feel really guilty for not trying to get it listed. Unless there's a track renewal due, I'd expect the platform to be built out to the track, rather than the track be slewed back to the platform. No idea how long shifting the track would take, but building a brick wall, filling the space behind almost to the top with gravel and covering that with tarmac or concrete should be achivable within the 1 week they have left. They'd have a little more work to do after that before they can open the station, but I don't think any of that would require posession of the line.

When i travelled on the fishguard branch back in late 2008 i am sure the track was closer to the platform than it is now, so maybe it was 2 years ago that the track was moved.

There is a lot of information on the fishguard branch and re-opening the station at goodwick on wnxx, although you will have to register before you can view th thread

The building at Fishguard & Goodwick station and the platform surface has been cleared although the platform will require work to bring it up to modern safety standards.  some journeys on the local town bus service have been diverted to fishguard harbour station to meet with the trains.

Fishguard services started today. the 08:04 Fishguard Hbr - Manchester service was worked by 175006. However not everything seems to have gone to plan with 09:56 Fishguard Hbr - Carmarthen service departing 19 minutes late.

Sadly because of work paying my wages late i was unable to go up on the 07:10 from Pyle to Fishguard and the 09:56 from Fishguard, however the fishguard portion i was told was worked by 150208.

I must congratulate everyone who has worked hard to get this trial up and running and i hope the station at Fishguard & Goodwick is opened asap.

There were some problems this morning which might have had an impact on the Fishguard service. Various trains were delayed between Swansea and Llanelli because of cable theft. The 6.42 CDF-PMD/FGH (which was 153+150) also started late at Cardiff; it might have lost more time through the Gowerton area - the 6.00 MFH-MAN, which passes that section before it, lost a bit of time there, but was not too severely delayed.

Seems to be a 175 doing one of the Swanline diagrams today - the one that is meant to come off HOW too. Anyone know if the 5am ish from Shrewsbury was a 175 or was it swapped at Swansea.  The other Swanline diagram is a 150 when often its a pacer.

Also I notice now the 13.10 Swanline is no longer a through train from HOW. Anyone know what is happening with the various diagrams at that time of day as apparently the one that does form the 13.10  Swansea-Cardiff sits in Swansea for hours before.

Seem to be mainly sprinters back on Pembroke Dock now the summer peak is over, although not sure if pacers still appear on Saturdays?

Tenby can be quite busy until the end of September, so it would make sense to maintain capacity on Saturdays. Train loadings tend to drop once the high season is over, but are still quite healthy for another few weeks; I don't know what's being used now, but this year, unlike a few years ago, they were quite good at strengthening before the summer timetable had started.

A quick look at live departure boards suggests there are diversions via the Vale of Glamorgan today. When this happens, Swanline stops are sometimes covered by the Manchester services, which might account for the 175.

All i can guess is that the set could be that which does the 07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea (Arr 09:22) especially since that it doesnt form teh 09:55 service to Manchester.

 I also have been told that the unit which comes down the HOWL  and terminates in Swansea at 13:01 sits in Swansea til it forms the 17:10 service to Cardiff.

Correct.   13 01 arrival works 17 10 Swansea to Cardiff.   This is to enable the 150 sitting at Swansea off 09 22 arrival to move to Cardiff for 15 14 Cardiff to Fishguard Harbour.
Rather than dwell only on individual Unit workings, doew anybody know anything about Fishguard passenger loadings

Havnt had a chance to sample the extra fishguard services although providing i get paid on time this week i am hoping to a week saturday travel to carmarthen and buy a west wales day ranger.

Also just found this on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37260/6155714287/in/photostream/

2 other 67's are supposed to being done as well. Strange as i havent heard of ATW doing a training for staff on the class 67's & DVT, since they dropped the plan to do so after the closure of WSMR back in january

So 2 ATW units stay in Swansea doing nothing for several hours - from 0922 until 13.10 for one unit and 1301 until 17.10 for another?

Yes & no.

From what i have been told the diagram is like:

05:45 Carmarthen - Pembroke Dock (Arr 07:04)
07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea (Arr 09:22)
13:10 Swansea - Cardiff Central (Arr 14:15)
15:14 Cardiff Central - Fishguard Harbour (Arr 18:34)
 Then shuttles between Fishgaurd & Claberston Road/Carmarthen etc

Then other diagram looks to be:

05:19 Shrewsbury - Swansea (Arr 09:08)
09:11 Swansea - Cardiff Central (Arr 10:17)
11:14 Cardiff Central - Swansea (Arr 12:19)
13:15 Swansea - Shrewsbury (Arr 17:10)
18:05 Shrewsbury -Swansea (Arr 22:10)

Not sure what the stock does, think it should work the 22:30 Swansea - Cardiff Swanline although this could change

Diagrams are booked for class 150 or a 153 .

The other diagrams  involved in Swanline/HOW must be;

Overnight Fishguard Harbour
0436 Swansea-Shrewsbury (arrives 08xx)
09xx Shrewsbury- Swansea (arrives 13xx)
17.10 Swansea-Cardiff (arrives 1820)

Im guessing this one is a 153.

And

0914 Cardiff-Swansea
1110 Swansea-Cardiff
1314 Cardiff-Swansea
1510 Swansea-Cardiff (arrives 16xx)

This is usually a 150.

Have the 2 150s that were being used on FGW Taunton services now back with ATW? I ask because the other day I spotted a pacer on a Taunton service when normally they are Sprinters.

I know ATW have at least 1 of the class 150's back from FGW. ATW are also have another class 150 away at Northern, think is 150282 and word is on wnxx that 1 of the engines has packed up.

It seems someone in the WAG is really pushing ATW to get the class 67's & MK3 for WAG2 urgently. 67003 is already being painted into ATW blue and there is a pic on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37260/6155714287/

Dont know if any MK3's are ready, perhaps a case of  borrowing one of the sets chiltern has? (Not the 1's with mainline branding that mix & match set i am thinking of)

As for the units  on the diagrams for the swanline service etc i suspect that this will vary day by day.

Chiltern's fleet is all spoken for, it is all needed for the all day Birmingham service when the Oxford route opens, hopefully in 2013. In the interim period it means they have enough to allow for complete sets of stock to be away at Doncaster for overhaul and fitting of power doors.

I don't think you'll see any in use on the WAG express...

It looks blue, as in BR blue. Is that just a trick of the light or is it not the same blue-ish dark turquoise used on the refurbished 158s and the WAG express 57s?

How can I prove that there will always be a unit sitting at Swansea from 13:04 to 17:10? If I can do that, the Welsh Assembly were lying to me that the 5hr gap at Fishguard couldn't be plugged without dropping one of the other services. You could do this:

13:14 Swansea - Shrewsbury HOWL service departs as two units in multiple
13:31 split at Llanelli, one unit continues to HOWL the other to Fishguard (Fishguard arrival 14:58)
15:21 Fishguard - Cardiff Central (arrive Swansea around 17:05, Depart 17:10, arrive Cardiff 18:20)

Isn't that just because the funding wouldn't stretch to another journey, the decision having been made to provide a timetable that focusses on the expected peaks? Perhaps that has been done to maximise revenue, and if things go well they might make use of these units sat at Swansea to fill the gaps in the future. If someone decides to fund it, so probably not for some time.

Agree.   It costs money to run a train and whether units (150 from 09 22) and 153 (from 13 02) sit at Swansea or not is therefore irrelevant.     If the gap could be filled by juggling Units around all well and good but as I have already explained there is nothing available at that time in the late afternoon.   

Funding or no funding, the fact is that was not the reason given to me twice by WAG. The first time was in their reply to my responce to the consulation and the second time came via Pembrokeshire County Council when I wrote to them about the issue and Fishguard & Goodwick station. Both responces claimed that by running a service in the gap you would loose the ability to run an evening train into Fishguard.

Unless we're wrong that a unit is sitting at Swansea between 13:04 and 17:10 that is not the case and the gap could be plugged without affecting the other services. Therefore, despite what WAG have been saying, I think you are right and funding is the issue. It then comes down to the details of what was promissed back when the extra trains where anounce and of the contract with ATW.

The anouncement was that 5 extra trains each way between Fishguard and Carmarthen would be funded. The fact is that one of the extra trains into Fishguard has no connection from east of Clarbeston Road, and hence WAG owe Fishguard 1 more extra inbound service. Also, there are effectively only 3 extra arrivals into Fishguard, as the first two are essentially ECS moves. Now, this is where the details of the contract come in. Would it allow WAG to specify that they are funding the following services, and leave ATW to choose betweening paying for the necessary positioning workings to run those services or paying for a car to transport staff to allow overnight stabling at Fishguard Harbour?:

• 06:53 Fishguard Harbour - Clarbeston Road
• 08:04 Fishguard - Carmarthen (it was an existing service after that point anyway)
• 08:45 Carmarthen - Fishguard Harbour (was an existing service east of Carmarthen)
• 09:56 Fishguard Harbour - Carmarthen
• 13:14 Swansea - Fishguard
• 15:21 Fishguard - Swansea
• 16:40 Swansea - Fishguard Harbour (the Cardiff - Swansea section was existing anyway)
• 19:00 Fishguard Harbour - Clarbeston Road
• 20:05 Clarbeston Road - Fishguard Harbour

Note however that I have only listed 9 services there for funding, 5 out 4 in, which is within the 5 services each way orriginally promised. As I said, it'd be up to Arriva whether they want to run the un-funded 05:50 CMN-FGH and 20:50 FGH - CMN trips at all or pay to transport the driver and guard by car to and from FGH where the unit could stay the night. The contract might not allow for that, so there could still be the funding issue, but the first step is debunking the myth (assuming I'm correct in thinking it is one) that there isn't the stock to plug the gap without messing up something else.

From what I've heard from a certain poster on another fourm Arriva have been gaining significantlly from the two WAG expresses. The WAG are apparently having to pay twice for the lease of the 175, and the subsidy figures for both services are such that I'd guess they practically equal the running cost of the service. Then, so I'm told, ATW keep all the fare revenue from both trains. Therefore they should be gaining enough from the WAG express to pay for the required positioning moves here in Fishguard and get the taxpayer better value for money on the extra Fishguard trains.

Given the fact that running services have a small marginal cost as the stock, staff, infrastucture etc. are already paid for it costs very little in comparison to run extra services so may as well run in service if it's standing about. However it is possible that they may be waiting as spares for during the day incase of problems so that it can be summoned if needs be as we know regularly happens with stock stabled at Temple Meads during the day. Myabe the back up unit is stabled in Swansea instead of Canton as the diagrams just work that way. Maybe someone can find out if it is official spare just incase? If it isn't then worth pushing for using it from December instead of standing about

The 17 37 departure from cardiff Central to Milford  was formed of a 3 carriage class 175, which did seem to cope better with the crowds of people.

There was an issue when some passengers for Pyle couldnt get on the train as it was full of passengers traveling to Swansea, that said staff were telling some people to wait 10 minutes for the 17:48 HST to Swansea.

I am hoping to take a trip to Fishguard Hbr soon to try out the new service, is there  a plus bus option for fishguard? if not perhaps something could be looked especially when the station at Fishguard & Goodwick opens?

Bus timetable for connections to the town here:

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/090911Fishguard/ (http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/090911Fishguard/)

If you can make it before Friday, those services operated by AB Phillips are free. From Friday onwards all services are operated by Brodyr Richards (service #410) and will cost. No PlusBus option at the moment: would it serve much of a purpose...? That part of Pembs isn't exactly overburdened with bus services. I can see there being some demand for travel up to Newport (Trefdraeth, not Casnewydd...) and Cardigan, but the latter is already served by a bus link from Carmarthen which I reckon is probably significantly quicker for passengers from points east.

Possibly there could be extenstions to the Cymru Connect tickets that are offered allowing through bus and train travel on certain services in Wales to cater for those travelling further afield to Fishguard. However a trick is missed with the tickets not available on local buses since it's only available at ticket offices which are for from numerous in certain parts of Wales

What happened when  it was a through train from Ebbw Vale with 2 coaches only ?  No complaits then,  perhaps now due to passengers travelling through from The Marches route.

Quite. I think in Pembrokeshire your choices are Haverfordwest and, erm, that's it. Even then it's only staffed mornings.

I have noticed 1 error and that is when i look for trains times from Pyle to Fishguard harbour the only train i get is the 15:42 departure from Pyle, for some reason the 07:10 departure which also goes to Pembroke Dock isn't shown,  they could at least show as needing to change at Whitland.

 I will try to go down  to Fishguard Hbr in  the morning as i am a little bit worried about needing to change trains at Claberston Road

Just a little warning, AB Phillips don't actually seem to be running the buses. It has been a Richards Bros liveried bus with a Richards Bros driver each time I've seen it. The services marked as AB Phillips on the timetable are free at the moment though, despite Richards running them. Charges as you say are coming.

If you only want to get to 'Little Newport' (as I tend to call it when there's a chance of confusion, Casnewydd being 'Big Newport') the buses aren't that bad actually (hourly from Haverfordwest), except for the lack of any bus connection from the 20:30 arrival from Clarbeston Road (leave Cardiff at 17:39). That hourly service from Haverfordwest to Fishguard/Newport goes through to Cardigan but they start stopping short at Newport quite early in the evening, meaning a day trip from anywhere between Cardigan and Newport to Cardiff is not possible entirely by public transport (latest you can leave Cardiff is 14:48, then 17:05 460 bus Carmarthen to Cardigan then 19:00 Cardigan - FIshguard 412 bus).

As for Cardigan, I think it is 1hr 40mins on the 460 bus from Carmarthen station to Cardigan Finch Square. That compares with about 50mins Carmarthen - Fishguard on a train and 45mins (plus interchange time) from Goodwick to Cardigan. About the same time in total, if you leave out the interchange time, but 1hr 40mins on a bus that isn't a TrawsCambria X50 (those two have more legroom) is a bit of a hardship. Also the last bus out of Carmarthen to Cardigan is 18:05, to get that you have to leave Cardiff at 16:04. If you want to get to Cardigan from Carmarthen later, I think you have to catch the Arriva X40 bus to Aberaeron and hope it is on time, because it is due to arrive at 21:31, the same time as the last bus from there to Cardigan leaves (and that goes via New Quay, adding even more time to the journey, eventual arrival in Cardigan is at 22:25).

on the south wales evening post website:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Boost-trains/story-13417424-detail/story.html

Seems bother the 16:40 & 17:05 departures from Swansea are now booked to stop at Kidwelly & Ferryside.

Off to fishguard harbour tommorow, ideally i hope to have some nice weather. Not too sure if it will travel back on the 09:56 departure or just spend a day in fishguard & the surrounding area before catching the 19:00 departure to claberston Road then another train to Pyle.

It's a lovely part of the world - Goodwick, in the immediate vicinity of the port, is a bit bleak, but Fishguard town itself (up the hill) is really nice. There's a Bayeux-style tapestry sewn by the locals a few years ago to celebrate the 200th anniversary of an abortive French invasion attempt - the Battle of Fishguard no less, although from what I've been told according to local folklore the French were mostly drunk and rounded up by some of the townswomen with pitchforks - which is well worth a visit. You could also hop on a bus up to Newport (Pembs), nice beaches, walks and a pretty little town to take a wander round. I reckon there's probably easily enough to keep you amused until the evening train back!

Edited to add...
There's also an antiques-cum-junk shop on the Main Street in Newport...not the most upscale example of the genre certainly, but when I went in there a few years back they did have a halfway interesting collection of assorted railway bits and pieces if that's your thing.

15840 was working the 06:16 Carmarthen - Swansea - Cardiff service this morning. It was at least 20 minutes late when it stopped at Pyle while i was waiting for the 08:37 train to Port Talbot.

i did tell 1 woman   who was running across the bridgend that she hadnt missed the train but that it  the very last 07:45 departure.

I really wish ATW would hurry up and install some information screeens at Pyle, some passengers at put off because if there is any delays they wont know unless they contact national rail enquiries.

 Anyway back to this morning I am not too sure if the 158 was looped at Stormy or Penoced as the Manchester train was only about 4 minutes behind it when it left Pyle and considering   the 06:16 stops at Pencoed etc. Either that or perhps run it non stop from Bridgend to Cardiff and get the Manchester train to make a few calls considering it has at least 10 minutes waiting around in Cardiff Central.

I believe the stock then works the 09:20 Cardiff - Holyhead service

I caught the 18.30 Manchester-Carmarthen service last night (returning from a short break to Blackpool) and it was run by 158840. Quite a plesant surprise to see that sitting on platform 8 at Picadilly as I expected the usual 175 and id been wanting to travel on a refurbished 158 for quite some time. The train was really busy until Crewe and also from Cardiff onwards with lots of people getting on at Cardiff. It was also still fairly busy between Crewe-Cardiff. Could have done with a 3 car really.

I was VERY impressed with the refurbishment and think they are 10 times better than the current 175s. The seats are comfortable, plenty of luggage storage, the information screen is helpful and nicer than on the 175s. The toilet facilities are a million times better than they were on 158s. The train is also well lit, the 158's used to seem quite dreary before.



I guess that 158 was then used on the first Carmarthen/Swanline this morning and then put onto Holyhead for it to enter back into the Mid/North Wales circuit of trains.  I am wondering if there was a reason a 158 was used on what is normally booked for 175s. The train was late getting into Manc, infact it was almost time for it to depart when it got in. It was then around 3 mins late leaving and also lost further time. So was about 15 mins late when i got off.
 
I know this wouldnt work as the 158's are needed for the Mid Wales line but id like to see 158s on the West Wales-Manchester once they are all refurbished - there are 24 of them so they could double them up on the busy Milford/Carmarthen-Manchester trains to make 4 cars, and the rest could be run as 2 cars, as many are currently with the 175s. There would prob also be enough left over for Cardiff-Holyhead again using 2 x 2 cars for the busier diagrams.  The 3 car 175s would then stay on the North Wales coast as now and the rest of the 175s used on Mid Wales/Heart of Wales possibly which could do with extra capacity.  To cover some of the Maesteg diagrams that use 158s currently they could possibly get some extra 150s (arent most Maesteg's 150 now anyway???)

 


I agree  I think they need info screens at Pyle and all Swanline stations - they have them at stations between Bridgend and Cardiff (Pencoed etc) and Llansamlet and also many of the smaller stations between Crewe and Shrewsbury.

Even Tenby has them, although i am surprised Whitland doesnt.

As for using doubled up class 158's on the Manchester - Cardiff - Milford Haven services i like . Especially if the 3 carriage 175's get put onto the north wales coast services  which in turn is enabling the 2 carriage 175s to be used on Swansea - Llandrindod - Shrewsbury/Crewe & Swansea - Pembroke Dock/Fishguard Hbr services where they can provide much greater capacity


I have a idea to get some  extra dmu's for ATW:

1.) Electrify Uckfield Branch & Brighton - Ashford Int'l and in turn give southern further class 377's. Those class 171's can in turn go to NXEA who can release their class 153's & 156's to Northern/East Midlands trains.

2.) London Midland gets more class 172's to boost capacity and replace the class 170's which could go to Scotrail to  release some class 158's for perhaps   ATW or FGW for routes around wales or south west england.

3.) FGW get  at least 15, 3 or 4 carriage class 172's for the Cardiff -Portsmouth Hbr, & Salisbury - Westbury - Swindon services the class 158's are in turn re-formed back into 2 carriage sets and most could then go to ATW for the increasing services on the cambrian route and double up capacity on the south wales - Manchester route.

The 172's greater  acceleration & top speed  would be helpful on the busy parts on the GWML especially between Chippenham & Swindon & between Bristol TM & Bath. The door layout would be better for use during the peaks that is 1 bad point with the 158's they are delayed by everyone trying to get on or off the end doors


1 bad point is that the 175's have much greater performance compared to the  158's not only in terms of higher top speed i notice the 175's have much quicker  acceleration.

3.) electrify Eastleigh/Southampton - Romsey - Salisbury this should free up  at least 5 158's which could then go to East Midlands trains to provide extra capacity on the Liverpool - Norwich service.

4.) If Gospel Oak - Barking is wired like network rail want perhaps the 172's could possibly be used by ATW on west wales & heart of wales routes , this should enable the 2 carrige class 175's to be used elsewhere on the ATW network . of course the LO 172' would need fitting with a DDA compliant toilet. Of course however the 172' could go to chiltern enabling some more 165's to go to FGW freing up the 150's 153's to go to ATW

Last nights 1755 from Swansea-Manchester was a 175 and was terminated at Cardiff and replaced by a 158. I heard the guard telling someone on the platform there were a few faults with it. How reliable are the 175s at the moment?

The 175's fair play to them have been very reliable especially since they came back form being overhauled & refurbished.

Maybe FGW should  perhaps think of doing the same with the class 180's

The 175s were introduced round about 2000 and it took 10 years to get improved reliability

Surprised i haven't picked up on this yet but on saturdays Pyle get a increase in the number of trains stopping  as there are additional departure's to Manchester at: 09:20,10:20, 11:20, 13:20, 16:20 & 17:20 in addition to the Swanline services.

However there are no additional westbound services serving Pyle on saturdays?

I personally think perhaps something could be done similar to this on a weekday, perhaps a service at 09:20 , 17:20 & 18:20 or perhaps a little bit earlier. The 16:55 & 17:55 departures from Swansea could also help take some of the pressure off the 17:10 swanline service.

In addition having a departure at 09:20 will be good for anyone traveling into Cardiff as the 09:44 swanline service is packed by the time it arrives at Pyle even if its a class 150

Its only Saturdays that Pyle get the extra services then? Im guessing this is to fill time more than anything as services depart Cardiff for Manchester at xx55 on Saturdays rather than xx50 or xx05 during the week. Also going west from Cardiff I guess Pyle is covered by enough services already during the evening peak.

Yesterday I noticed they are still using a 153 on valley lines, Coryton I think.

Yes Pyle does get additional services on saturdays to Cardiff but only the current level coming back.

I am sure it would be better for 1 or 2 of the Manchester - Milford Haven services to make an additional call at Pyle especially if it helps to cut down the amount of time they wait at Swansea

153 diagrammed on Coryton to Radyr services on a Saturday.   I have explained this before.

From another topic, but I thought my reply would be more relevant here.
I'd have thought nothing would be confirmed until another party agrees to vote in favor of Labour's WAG budget.

The first thing that should be done if the doubling goes ahead is to standardise (ie. make clockface) the timeings of the current west Wales trains (assuming the doubling does allow that of course). Apart from that though, and improvments in reliability, I think at the present time it is a waste of money. That is partly because of the lack of spare rolling stock. Also I think that, when rolling stock does appear, the first priority for the west Wales lines should be to get a 2-hourly express service from Cardiff (or Bristol or Portsmouth) to Carmarthen (or prefrablly points west) over the Swansea District Line calling at only Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway, Llanelli and Carmarthen using 158s (or as a last resort, 175s). Once that is in place, then an hourly all-stations stopping service from Swansea to Carmarthen (extending to Pembroke in one hour, as at present, and Milford in the other) using 150s could be introduced alongside the present hourly fasts (currently from Manchester), making use of the Gowerton re-doubling.

Network rail have completed putting the track back near the Platform at Fishgaurd & Goodwick station.

See the link below for pictures of the work:

http://fishguardtrains.info/

Glad to see verything coming along well, although there does seem to be a lot of problems with the 17:39  service from Cardiff - Milford Haven which is now very overcrowded because passengers will not wait for the 17:48 HST.

I will be glad when more dmu's become available especially some class 170's from scotland as it menas the Nottingham - Cardiff train could in theory be extended to Swansea or Carmarthen via the Swansea District Line.

You can't just extend a Nottingham to Cardiff to Swaansea or beyond just like that.   XC have no running rights West of Cardiff and if any change was to be made, it would have to have to be agreed by ORR firstly and DFT.   This process would take years at the rate these things move.

Ok Thanks just asking.

I was surprised to see a Voyager on the 8.45 Cardiff-Nottingham today! And I hope that 150/1 didn't go all the way to Portsmouth....!

The South Wales main line timetable for December has been up for a while now. There's a bit of a change to the morning peak. Where currently the Manchester and Swanline services leave Swansea close together just after 7am, they have now been spaced out so that the earlier train from Carmarthen doesn't just sit in Swansea for 15-20 minutes. The Manchester will still leave just after 7am, but formed by the slightly later train from Carmarthen, and the earlier one that currently goes to Manchester will form the Swanline service, which will leave Swansea at 0642.

A mix of pros and cons...!

This removes the current close spacing, and restores a weekday stop for Pyle at 7.12. It also means Swanline stations have an earlier first train, which might be useful for some, particularly those making longer journeys. Another benefit is that the stopper no longer needs to be looped at Pencoed, which reduces the interaction between the stopper and the 7.28 SWA-PAD, which can impact on each other's performance.

But not so good for commuters who perhaps have become used to the current timing of the one peak Swanline train. Pyle passengers benefit, but users of the smaller Swanline stations will have to get up half an hour earlier. I suppose without a 17.38 from Cardiff for those stations, a pre-8am arrival at Cardiff might be good for those who want to return on the 1704. But for 9-5 commuters, or those who are accustomed to the current arrival times in Neath, Bridgend etc, life might become more difficult.

The distribution of stops at station between CDF and BGN is also altered. In some ways the stops have been made more regular, in terms of overall spacing, but passengers from the Swansea direction effectively lose their 2 direct trains to Pencoed and Pontyclun between 8 & 9, which might affect some passengers as a fair number of people work in these places. Maesteg passengers, on the other hand, do now have a direct service to those places, whereas before the main commuter service from Maesteg didn't offer a good connection for them as it only stopped at Llanharan.

Currently Pontyclun & Pencoed have 2 arrivals at Cardiff at 8.34 and 8.44; this will now be one arrival at 8.48, which might not be helpful for those who need to reach the office by 9, or who need to make connections with Valley Line routes. Also will it increase crowding on the main peak Maesteg-Cardiff train, given that it's 2 stops instead of 1 smaller town (Llanharan). Also, the Swanline currently stops at all stations, but in the new timetable there's no real option for commuting from Llanharan to Pontyclun. Effectively the Swanline train provides a dedicated commuter train for the 3 stations, as passengers from points west of Bridgend can change at Bridgend onto the HST. ANd the second train for P&P is the Manchester, which is a 3 car. Now they're being pushed onto the single Maesteg train (currently 2 car).

150s to Portsmouth happens at least a few times every week - and has done for years.  Single sets, doubles, or in multiple with a 158, they all happen.

They aren't that unususal on the Brightons either...

Paul

Seen a 150 doing it many times, but first time I've seen a /1 going that way; do they still have their original 3+2 seating? Might help with the overcrowding though!

Voyagers are occasionally seen on Cardiff to Nottinghams.  Not the first by a long chalk.

_{Edited in the hope of unmangling the use of the quote function. I think I've managed to retain the intended meaning...}

It didnt make sense having 2 arriva services leaving in between the 0658 and 0728 London services. Its a much better spacing between services having the swanline going at 0642. Although im guessing it could still cause problems with the 0658 fast train behind it?

Are there any changes to the evening timetable? I have noticed the 1910 is often late, partly I assume because its formed of the arrival from Cardiff (that leaves Cardiff at 1804) therefore doesnt have a very long turnaround time.

Yes the 19:10 Swanline from Swansea to Cardiff is currently formed of the stock which comes down on the 18:04 from Cardiff, It normally has about 2-3 minutes turn around at Swansea.

Before the timetable change back in May it used to be formed of the  stock which worked the 16:40 Ebbw Vale - Cardiff - Swansea service (Arriving into Swansea at about 18:40)

Now  that paths between Cardiff & Swansea is taken up by the 17:39 Milford Haven train which only calls at Pyle of all instead of all the Swanline stations.

On Saturday I believe the 16.40 Ebbw Vale - Cardiff - Swansea still runs. A lot of the old timetable still runs on a Saturday, the Manchesters-West Wales depart Cardiff west bound at xx04 on Saturdays.

Nothing significant IIRC. The 1804 is quite tightly timed and could do with another minute around Baglan and Skewen, like the daytime journeys. As a result it usually has only a few minutes at Swansea, and if it's at all delayed it will end up leaving after 1910.

The 6.42 will no longer be held at Pencoed, so even with the Llanharan stop missed, it will arrive at Cardiff around 5 minutes behind the HST. But there's no ideal solution to fitting stoppers in around the faster trains. Swanline passengers will have a 2 1/2 hour gap in the up direction, with no post-8am arrival at Cardiff or the other main stations, but perhaps people will just switch to the CDF-PMD/FGH service and double back. The 7.10 is quite early for some people anyway (e.g. if they want a 9am start in Bridgend) so I would guess some people might already do that.

Personally I prefer to drive to either Port Talbot or Neath rather than get a train from my local Swanline station. It seems easier to do that with a 2 hourly service from swanline and many more trains going from either Neath or Port Talbot. Other commuters without a car may not be able to do that. I guess doubling back or getting a bus is the only other option, but how much easier would an hourly swanline service be.

I agree just look at how passenger numbers have increased sharply at Pyle since ATW started stopping the Manchetser services there durring the peaks. This has offered commuters a half hourly service during the peaks  and this as well as Pyle station having  2 large free car parks it has attracted  commuters  & other passengers living in Porthcawl, and local villiages as well as 1 or 2 people from Margam who drive their cars to and use Pyle station instead of Port Talbot Parkway.

On Friday I travelled from Neath to Manchester using the 0756 departure (0745 from Swansea). The 0710 Swanline was late and was held at Swansea until after the 0728 Paddington had departed. The 0756 was on time at Neath but seemed to lose a few mins and arrived late at Cardiff. The swanline being late seemed to benefit the Manchester train in terms of space on board as hardly anyone got on at Pyle or Pencoed due to the delayed Swanline being about 5 mins ahead. Im not sure if the swanline was looped at Pencoed still as quite a lot got on at Pontyclun.

There seemed to be some engine problems on the 175 that was used on the 0756 as it really struggled to get going at almost all the stations from Hereford onwards. We were losing a minute or 2 at every station and arrived at Picadilly around 12 mins late. They made up some time as it was nearly 20 mins late at Wilmslow and some people werent happy about missing connections to Manchester Airport so were advised to stay on until Picadilly and connect there.


I notice the new timetable (which started yesterday) now has the 0855 Swansea-Manchester terminating in Cardiff and another train restarting from Cardiff-Manchester. Its still a connection but im wondering why its no longer a through train. All other trains leaving Swansea at xx55 are to Manchester with the 1755 being the last through service. I saw this morning that the 0855 from Swansea was a 175 as i wondered maybe if it would be a sprinter and they changed it due to ending the diagram in cardiff. Im guessing its a diagram change and perhaps that 175 is used elsewhere. Hopefully not a sign of things to come and more wont be through trains to Manchester.

One of the Cardiff-Portsmouths was a 5 car on Saturday - a 3 car 158 / car 150. Nice to see extra capacity on that line, Manchester-Cardiff could do with a bit more capacity as we know!

Looking at the journey planner it seems it was only today the 0855 was different and its a through service to Manchester other days. Very odd.

You've got me chasing around for nothing to try and answer your qyery.     08 55 Swansea is 1W17 07 07 Milord Haven to Manchester through train as shewn ATW Timetable Book Section 2 and also in Journey Planner.    No query.  If you have seen somewhere thai it is not a through train, it is incorrect.

Edited to unmangle quote i_b

It is indeed shown as a through train on page 8 of timetable booklet 2 (incidentally, it's 0705 off Milford in the public timetable, at least, not 0707). The train does sit in Cardiff for 19 minutes which is shown in booklet 3 (again, page 8 ), arriving CDF at 0946, departing 1005. This isn't shown explicitly in booklet 2 but is implied by an unusually long time between departing Bridgend and Cardiff.

Wonder if the long wait at CDF has resulted in the confusion here (e.g. a journey planner may suggest changing at Cardiff to catch a service that will arrive at some destinations more quickly rather than staying on the through train?).

We may well see some changes to the timetables from 2013 now that the go ahead has been given to Gowerton to be doubled tracked:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-16147169

Good news that the go ahead has been given, this bottleneck frequently causes delays.

Well both Live departure boards and journey planner yesterday showed it was indeed a split service between milford-cardiff and then cardiff-manchester. Im sure there was a reason for it that one day!

No the journey planner and live departure boards yesterday showed the 07xx off Milford as terminating in Cardiff at 095x and then another train starting at Cardiff at 1005 to Manchester. Must have been a one off for some reason yesterday.

Admin request to all posters on this topic, in particular:

I say, chaps: could you please minimise the use of the 'reply with quote' feature, whenever possible - or at least, only quote the specific point upon which you want to comment?

Quoting and requoting whole posts does make the topic rather hard to follow - and I note that even an experienced moderator has found some difficulty, in untangling a few mangled quotes previously on this particular topic!

Thanks!

Chris.  ;)

Signal problems between Newport and Cardiff yet again today, everything was being turned back at Newport apart from trains running through to Swansea/West Wales and Maesteg.

Regarding Maesteg, at least 2 refurbished 158s were used on the line today, so yes at the expense of services where 158s would be more suited!

What services should they work if everything else is diagrammed ?   

I think they should swap them for 150s on Maesteg and then have the 158s on more longer distance services that 150s run such a Pembroke Dock/Fishguard/Heart of Wales maybe.

Although nothing has happened yet, the 150s are spoken for but that is another story.    The Pembroke Docks are booked 153s and 158s are not authorised on the Hear of Wales Line due to a platform clearance issue..    In any case, not much difference in distance between Maesteg and Cheltenham and Swansea and Pembroke Dock.

Isn't there an ATW 150 leased to Northern, which ATW seem to have enough spares to be able to replace when it breaks, plus one on a Holyhead - Cardiff (or similar) diagram in lieu of the 175 that was taken for WAG express 2? If either of these 150s became available I think it should be put on the Maesteg service to release a 158. I'd then put that 158 on a morning express (ie. via Swansea District Line with stops west of Carmarthen at Llanelli, Port Talbot, Bridgend and Cardiff only) from Milford Haven or Fishguard to Cardiff. That 158 would then run the Fishgaurd boat train, with Carmarthen, Port Talbot and Bridgend stops added (should still be able to do Llanelli - Cardiff in the same time as a 150 despite the extra stops thanks to the 158's 90mph capablilty) and a service to Fishguard leaving Cardiff as close as possible to the 17:39 to provide some relief, again this would be an express via the Swansea District Line. The 150 that currently works the Fishguard boat train would then go onto the Maesteg - Cheltenham curcuit. I think you guys said it comes off a double unit sometime after the first two-hour gap in the Cardiff - Cheltenham service, but it should enable all the other two hour gaps to be filled.

Carmarthen gets two extra express services, with suitable rolling stock, and Fishguard gets suitable rolling stock on the boat train, while the Cardiff - Cheltenham line gets most of the gaps filled.

ATW' have a class 150 on hire to Northern and another class 150 is still with NXEA..

Speaking of the class 150's I think something will have to be done to get  some of them refurbished to meet DDA rules from 2020.

150 returned from Northern mid November on receipt of cascaded 150/1s from LM..    You cannot run additional services without funding from whatever source.   On paper, ATW have a surplus of 150s but these were identified for other work which I would prefer not to comment on as there has been a political, or otherwise another reason why this has not taken place.   There has been a deafening silence both from ATW and WAG on this matter for some 2/3 years now.

Quite a few trains delayed between Port Talbot and Neath/Swansea today due apparently to a cable theft in the Neath/Swansea area.

Ive seen quite a few 158s on the Carmarthen-Manchesters this week - at least 1 diagram per day. Are they short of 175s?

They are missing that 175 that was damaged in the collision with the lorry at Whitland a month or so ago. From what I have heard although this is only talk from staff  it is likely to be out of service for at least a few months till they get a new cab built and fitted.

I deally when the WAG services go over to class 67's & MK3 carriages in March/April that the mk2 rakes could be used to provide extra capacity or to release some dmu's to strengthen other services although as many have said I doubt it will happen.

Yes I guess one 175 being out of use is having a big impact.  I noticed todays Swanline/HOW services appeared to be mainly 150s whilst nearly all of them during the week have been 153s.

What is being used on Pembroke Dock at the moment - both weekday and Saturdays?

Havent been out of late due to lack of funds and work etc but I wouldn't be too surprised if ATW have been using some of the class 142/143 pacer units on the Pembroke dock route.

I dont get to see Pembroke Dock very often due to them mainly starting from Swansea. I get an idea whats on HOW as most of them interact with Swanline at some point.

I do know however that a 175 was used on one Pembroke Dock diagram a few Saturdays ago but this was I guess because of the engineering works between Port Talbot and Bridgend meaning nothing was running to normal diagrams west of Bridgend.

I noticed 1 of the refurbished class 158's working  on 1 of the swanline services today.

It should have been working the 15:14 Cardiff - Fishguard Harbour service but it was running late an still hadnt arrived into Swansea when I departed on the 16:28 Swansea - London Paddington service.

I like how they have refurbished most of Swansea station , looks completly different since I Last used it back in June 2011


Anyway according to the latest issue of Todays railways UK march 12th has been stated  at the opening date for Fishguard & Goodwick station.

Why should there not have been 153s on the Pembroke Docks - no problem with them.   150s appear on HOW subsituting quite frequently and there are diagrams for Sundays.

No problem at all with 153s on Pembroke Dock at all, im just enquiring what IS used on there as I dont get to see them very much, weekdays or Saturdays.

I notice one of todays Swanlines - the one that forms the Early Shrewsbury-Swansea-Cardiff was a 150 and 153 making up a car car.

Also there is a 150 on at least one of the Manchester-Carmarthen/Milfords today, certainly the one that is usually a 158 on Saturdays, the 150s have been busy recently!

There does seem to be a class 150 working regulary on 1 of the Milford Haven - Manchester services now most likely until that class 175 is repaired and back in service.

I have noticed a class 158 appearing on the swanlines regulary now although they do mostly appear on the Maesteg - Cheltenham route.


I do hope come 2015 the WG will try and get more units from scotrail when they are available to provide a much needed boost to capacity. I am sure some 3 carriage class 170's would be welcomed on the Milford Haven/North Wales - Manchester routes in place of a  2 carriage class 175.

158s should not appear on the Swanlines except in the case of disruption.   The daytime diagrams interface with the Cardiff Valleys or Heart of Wales where they cannot work.   3/4 of Maesteg to Cheltenhams are booked for 158s so obviously their availability is better now.

Ive noticed a 158 regularly on Manchester-Milford (at least 1 per day during the wee and Saturdays) but until today not seen many 150s on that route. There were 2 today - the diagrams that work the 1455 and 1555 from Swansea-Manchester.

Even tho 75% of Maestegs are booked 158 I still see a lot of 150s on that route.

Seemed to be a few problems at Cardiff this afternoon. The pacer that was on the daytime swanline that ends up going to Abergavenny arrived into platform 1 ready to depart to Abergavenny. I was sat on the Cardiff-Maesteg train at the end of platform 3a which was a 150 and quite cosy with a few people standing. The guard comes onto the train and informed everyone they needed to get off as this unit was required for another service and there would be another train to form the Maesteg at the end of platform 4 at 4.30pm. So off everyone got and it turned out the pacer had failed and the 150 meant for Maesteg was now going to Abergavenny and departing off Platform 3b.   As Platform 1 was now unavailable due to the failed pacer and platform 2 already had the 1630 Portsmouth train sat on it the London Paddington train had to come in on Platform 4 (baring in mind Maesteg passengers were also waiting on Platform 4 and then London passengers all had to move from platform 1 to 4.  The London train was sent after the Portsmouth train so a delay to this service was caused because of this pacer.

When the 4 car Ebbw Vale train came in we were informed the front 2 cars were being detached and used for the delayed Maesteg service. The rear 2 cars were then kept for the 1738 Swanline and then I assume an hour later the next Ebbw Vale 4 car would be turned around straight away and sent back out to keep a 4 car on that service whilst swanline made do with 2 cars.  I ended up on the 1648 Swansea train as there would be more room than the delayed Maesteg and by then it was around 20 mins later anyway.

At Cardiff the manual announcements were very good, if a little louder than they needed to be!

Today I noticed the majority of ATW diagrams (that i saw) were back to normal after a very mixed few weeks.  The only sprinter i saw on Manchesters was the 1555 off Cardiff which is usually the case on a Saturday. Everything else seemed to be 175 as usual.

ATW do seem to be really stretching the class 175 fleet lately although on a saturday I suppose they have the 175 which normally does WAG2 on weekdays

Yes plus they have 1x 158 on a Saturday as well. Not sure if the 1321 Holyhead is a 150, 158 or 175 on Saturday?

I assume the 15:55 off Cardiff is the one Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford service that posters above have said is diagramed for a 158 on Saturdays. If so, is that 15:55 towards Manchester or headed west? I'd like to know the times a 158 is supposed to be west of Swansea so I can try and photograph one.

@ Jez the 13:21 Cardiff-Holyhead was 158832 yesterday
@ Rhydgaled The 15:55 Cardiff is to Manchester, its the 13:08 Milford Haven to Manchester or 06:30 Manchester to Milford Haven

If it is the 06:30 from Manchester to Milford Haven it should be 10:04 from Cardiff Central arriving into Carmarthen at 11:49 and Milford Haven at 12:45.

Yes, correct

Booked 175/0 on 13 21 Saturdays (There's your WAG one on paper).    There is a 175/0 booked Maintenance at Chester on a Saturday and Sunday.   This is why  158 works 06 30 Manchester etc.,, being replaced by 150 on Chester to Crewe local shuttle.

On Saturday the service that leaves Swansea at around 11am and arrives into Milford around 12.40 is usually a 158. Then its return journey from Milford at around 1300, it departs Swansea at 1455, Cardiff at 1555 and arrives into Manchester at 1915. Then forms the 1930 from Manchester-Cardiff arriving back into Cardiff around 11pm. Assume it then stays in Cardiff and forms either a Manchester of Holyhead service on Sundays.

Several options for Sunday if more than one 158 at Cardiff Sat night.   Could go to Manchester via west Wales.   It's working details on Saturdays have already been posted.

I thought Ferryside to Carmarthen was absolute block...

According to the timetable, the 10:57 Cardiff to Fishguard leaves Llanelli at 12:03 and reaches Whitland (the next place it stops at) at 12:45. That's 42 minutes, going from the return working it takes 22 minutes to go between Carmarthen and Llanelli if you don't stop, and it's about another 15 minutes from Carmarthen to Whitland (15+22=37, plus 5 minutes reversal in Carmarthen = 42). Therefore I would think that the service does in fact have enough time allowed to call at Carmarthen, rather than using the avoider line, like so:

Llanelli dep.	12:03
Carmarthen arr.	12:25
Carmarthen dep.	12:30
Whitland arr.	12:45

 

However, the previous train is:

Llanelli dep.	11:54
Pembrey & Burry Port	12:00
Kidwelly	12:06
Ferryside	12:11
Carmarthen arr.	12:26

By my guesswork, the Fishguard Flyer will reach Ferryside at 12:15, but rather than wizz through it would have to stop and wait until 12:26. That leaves it just 19 minutes to get all the way to Whitland (15 minutes from Carmarthen remember, which gives it only 4 minutes to reach Carmarthen from Ferryside) is that possible? If not, how does this service run?

Another problems is that the Pembroke Dock - Swansea service departs Carmarthen at 12:30 so the Fishguard service would need to depart Carmarthen at 12:29 or after 12:30.

Ferryside - Carmarthen can been done in 8 minutes if you really push it although it is mostly 10 minutes.

That 11:54 from Llanellie can  get into Carmarthen at 12:24 as it shouldnt take 15 minutes from Ferryside to Carmarthen uunless it is held outside the station and the working from Pembroke Dock doesnt arrive until 12:27.

The Fishguard service isnt timed to arrive into Fishguard Harbour til after 13:15 however is there regulary shortly before 13:05 so there is a lot of slack which could be used and Carmarthen - Fishgaurd can easily be done in 46 minutes even with a stop @ Whitland.

Adding the extra stop at Goodwick when it opens Carmarthen - Fishagurd Hbr should take 49 minutes.

Ideally perhaps it should be looked at the Fishguard service leaving Cardiff after 11:00 so that it arrived into Llanelli say for 12:05 and makes a stop at Bridgend or Port Talbot Parkway  (Of course this is assuming atht tehre are paths available although didnt the Milford Haven/Carmarthen trains depart Cardiff at 04 minutes past?)

That's still later than my 12:15 estimate for the Fishguard wanting to pass Ferryside, so even the current service would appear to be impossible unless the previous train only took 4 minutes from Ferryside to Carmarthen (hence reaching Carmarthen at 12:15, allowing the Fishguard to pass Ferryside, rather than 12:26). In other words, even without calling at Carmarthen the Fishguard needs to pass Ferryside before the previous train has reached Carmarthen, how is that possible?

I doubt stopping at Bridgend and Port Talbot would be much of a problem if they used propper 90/100mph regional express rolling stock (ideally a 158, 175s are heavier and more expensive to run) on the service. In the timetable I'm working on the 10:57 (still with the impossible pathing from Ferryside to Whitland) looks like this:

Cardiff Central dep.	10:57
Bridgend arr.	11:16
Bridgend dep.	11:17
Port Talbot Parkway	11:28
Llanelli arr.	11:59
Llanelli dep.	12:03
-	Invalid Headway Here
Whitland	12:45
Fishguard & Goodwick	13:23
Fishguard Harbour	13:26

Following your comments, I've made the Fishguard leave Cardiff a little later (one hopes there's no frieghts in the way) and cut the journey time from Ferryside to Carmarthen on the previous service to 12 minutes (also reduced Carmarthen - Fishguard to 50 minutes). The result is:

Cardiff Central dep.	10:40		11:05
Bridgend arr.	10:59		11:24
Bridgend dep.	10:59		11:25
Port Talbot Parkway	11:12		11:36
Llanelli arr.	11:52		12:07
Llanelli dep.	11:54		12:10
Carmarthen arr.	12:23		12:34
Carmarthen dep.	-		12:36
Whitland	-		12:50
Fishguard & Goodwick	-		13:23
Fishguard Harbour	-		13:26

Would that work?

Further to my timetable investigations, does anyone know where I can find running times between non-calling points (in particular I'd like to know how long it takes between Cockett West Junction and Swansea station and between Duffryn West Junction and Llanelli station, but a source of running time information for everywhere like that would come in handy I'm sure).

This doesn't have running times but is stuffed full of other useful timetable information.  Perhaps someone with access to a working timetable can let you have those general running times.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rules%20of%20the%20route/Outrotp13/gw13p.pdf

Thanks very much for that, RichardB.  :)

Cockett West Junction and Swansea station - seems to be usually be 9-11 minutes.
Duffryn West Junction and Llanelli station - 3-4 minutes.

That preceding train terminates at CMN so it will have some time added to the advertised arrival time; the working time may be a few minutes before 1226.
The 2004 RotP gives some revised point to point timings, suggesting Ferryside-Carmarthen is composed of:
Ferryside - Carmarthen Jn: 8 (HST) (no DMU variant given but will be no longer than this)
Carmarthen Jn - Carmarthen: 2 (HST & DMU)

The AB section ends at Carmarthen Junction. Add 2 minutes (minimum specified recovery time) and that Carmarthen train will clear the AB section at about 1221. Add some time for the signallers to do their business and the Fishguard should be able to pass Ferryside by 1223. This just about gives it enough time to reach Whitland.

ATW have annouced some changes to their south wales services from 14th May.

The 07:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea service (Arr 09:20) is extended to Cardiff  Central (arr 10:40) calling Neath, Port Talbot, Pyle & Bridgend. This should make it easier for those passengers at Pyle as the 09:10 departure from Swansea to Cardiff is nearly always a class 153 and is  always overcrowded by the time it gets to Pyle at 09:44.

Also annouced  is that the 14:45 Cheltenham Spa - Maesteg service is replaced with a 14:50 Gloucester - Fishguard Hbr service with the 15:14 Cardiff - Fishguard service being cut back to Swansea. This does have the option of offering a reduction in journey time from Cardiff to Fishguard by 26 minutes. This service will be limited stop between Cardiff & Swansea only calling at Bridgend , Pyle, Port Talbot & Neath.

A further annoucement is that there is a 15:39 Cardiff -Milford Haven service (this being the retimed 16:04 departure from Cardiff which is replaced by the fishguard departure above) this service will also serve Pyle which is great and should help boost passenger numbers using the station.

Some unusual diagrams today;

A 150 on one of the Manchester-Carmarthen-Manchester trains (which included the 1355 off Swansea and will form the 1830 back from Manchester.

A refurbished 158 on the daytime swanline which ends up going from Swansea to Abergavenny at 1510.

It will be interesting to see what changes the new timetable will bring from Monday - I guess we will see pacers on most pembroke dock diagrams?

Its good that the first Pembroke Dock now continues to Cardiff as not only does that mean an extra train from Swansea-Cardiff at that time of the morning it also means that unit isnt sat in Swansea for 4 hours and another unit sat in swansea for another 4 hours until 17.10.  I notice the 09xx HOW Shrewsbury-Swansea is now a through train to Cardiff again arriving at 14xx.

Seems the Maesteg - Cheltenham services are to be more closely interworked with the Cardiff - Ebbw Vale services.

Also the talk of the class 158's coming off the Maesteg - Cheltenham services may not actually be true now as the class 158 set to be used to provide extra capacity on the Holyhead - Birmingham/cambrian circuit is to come off the Chester - Crewe shuttle and be replaced by a class 150.

Also yesterday I noticed a class 158 was used on the Cardiff - Fishguard Hbr boatr train which I passed traveling on a hst just outside cardiff Central. I did think it was the Manchester service at first however I had just seen the Manchester service at central station formed a 175 and the next service from Maesteg wasnt due for about 18 minutes we passed the incoming service from Maesteg near Pontyclun and the swanline from Swansea just before we got to LLanharren

WAG2 is being withdrawn in september with WAG1 running via Wrexham and using WAG2's northbound path and should be 67 & dvt with mk3's no idea if they are going to bring back the 16:15 Cardiff - Abergavenny service to replace the loss of WAG1 departing around that time.

Hopefully we will see 175002 back soon after being repaired and that should provide some relief to ATW and get rid of the class 150's which are currently covering on the Cardiff - Holyhead route.

December 2012 is when we can expect some major shakeup's of ATW's .

Opening ceremony of Fishguard & Goodwick station is to be oat  around 13:00 on Monday and hopefully ATW will be able to muster up a  refurbished class 158  which would look good as it promotes ATW, the WG etc

The 1st train to call will be the 01:50 from Fishguard Hbr - Swansea

The use of 150s to Holyhead has no direct link to 175002 as a 158 Diagram (from Maestegs and replaced by 150) has been amended to work a 175/0 diagram in lieu.
The reason is just day to day availability and units can fonosh in the wrong place at night as result of disruption thus affecting the following day.

How are the Ebbw Vale and Maestegs going to be interworked? Are some Maestegs going to run to Ebbw Vale on the hours when they dont go to Cheltenham Spa?

I was surprised to see a 158 on the 1510 Swanline today and a 150 on a Manchester - that sounds the wrong way around, but I guess as you say it depends where sets start/end and they have to use whats most convenient.  The 1510 Swanline is usually a pacer on a Sat but a pacer was on the daytime fishguard boat train via the Swansea district.

No idea what was used on Pemb Dock but I know 2 of the HOW diagrams were 150s today and 2 yesterday i think as well.

I imagine the 1510 swanline might be extended to Abergavenny on a weekday like a Saturday, assuming the 150 which usually runs that swanline diagram during the week isnt needed elsewhere after it arrives into Cardiff. 

I think some services coming in terminating at Cardiff will do exactly that and work and Ebbw Vale service and back with a unit from the incoming service from Ebbw Vale instead of shunting out of cardiff central before returning to platform 0 to wait til the next ebbw vale departure at 35 minutes past the hour it will instead form a service to Maesteg which starts from Cardiff Central.

That said they could have interworked the Ebbw Vale services with the swanline since they dont have to wait in Cardiff as long as the units from Maesteg would have to.

An example being unit from Maesteg arrives into Cardiff at 08 minutes pas and would then have to wait til 35 minutes pas while the swanlines arrive at 15 minutes past also the swanline depart Cardiff at 14 minutes past rather than 20 past like the  Maesteg services

Either way I think we will have to wait see what happens and we will get the 175  off WAG2 back and the 175 that was damaged in west wales back in services soon so ATW should have more stock to play with.

also maybe a use for the mk2's once they are displayed by mk3's from the wag express?

Finally it wouldnt be the 1st time atw have used a class 158 on the 15:10 swanline service I had a 3 carriage class 175 a few years ago and had the front carriage to myself while the 14:55 Manchester train was  packed and formed of a 2 carriage class 175 pity they didnt swap the units at that time.

I see. I wonder if that will mean some 158s will end up on Ebbw Vale or if they will just use 150s on all Ebbw Vale and Maesteg services.

A 158 has appeared on swanline sometimes but its very rare in my experience.

I was taking part in a bellringing at Peterston-super-Ely today and was in the churchyard when the 15 10 Swansea to Abergavenny passed.   (The line is adjacent to the church).   It was a Pacer.
If you read back on this page you will see 14 35 Gloucester to Fishguard in lieu of a Cheltenham which means there is a 16 18 Cardiff to Maesteg so there is an opportunity.    A set is saved (for Chester to Crewe local) by stepping the Ebbw Vale up instead of hanging around for nearly an hour to work other trains, ie. Fishguard Boat and 16 18 to Maesteg.    The 07 09 Pembroke Dock will form the 11 35 Cardiff to Ebbw Vale for example,  for the Ebbw Vale to form the Fishguard and be a 158 when 175002 returns.   158s will also be diagrammed to Ebbw Vale.
Pacers will work Pembroke Docks High Summer to increase capacity.

it must have been swapped then as it was definately a refurbished 158 at Neath.

it would be better to double up the 150s on the pemb docks in the summer as more room than a pacer.

1 pair of 153s (displaced by Pacers) on Pembroke Docks.   Pacers are taken from Valleys and juggling done to provide more suitable although reduced capacity so not possible to take 150s from Valleys without reducing capacity further.  where aboutst at Neath were you on the platform or otherwise.  would not have swapped between Neath and Cardiff.   Or I could have mistaken it for the Fishguard.

I was told a pacer was used on the Fishguard boat train today Phile so it may have been that you saw on its way back to Cardiff

I can see the railway line from where I live.  It was Manchester train first (refurb 158), then fishguard (pacer) then swanline (refurb 158).

I guess thats why a 153 is booked for Coryton on Saturdays, maybe it swaps with a pacer on Pemb Dock.

A blue & silver 158 would do nicely (as well as a refurbed one if it is clean) if refurbed ones aren't available. Sadly it will probably be a 150 or Pacer to spoil the party, come on ATW find us a 158 for Monday.

Is the interworking with Ebbw Vale being introduced on Monday (meaning we'll have a 158 on the Fishguard boat train sometime between the end of June and the end of August when 175002 gets back), or do we have to wait until the September timetable for that?

Ah, so Arriva's delay with getting the DVT LHCS together for WAG2 is what is causing 150s to appear on long-distance trains then, ATW are covering for 175002 with a 158 but not covering for the 175 lost to WAG2?

You may have told me before, but is there only one Holyhead - Cardiff class 158 diagram (the one covering for 175002's absence)? If so, how do 158s get switched between Cheltenham - Maestegs and north/mid Wales services when 175002 turns that back to a 175 diagram, do they run ECS to Machynlleth/Shrewsbury overnight?

I think we  there maybe a bit of interworking starting from tommorow as others have said the unit on the  07:09 Pembroke Dock - Cardiff service  (arr 10:40) will then form the 11:35 Cardiff - Ebbw Vale service.

But I also think we are waiting on 175002 getting back into service I think it is currently under repair now i.e. getting a new cab etc.

I can see some of the class 153's being used on the Radyr - Coryton route to release some of the  pacers to go to west wales.


From what I have been able to work out the  unit used on the 09:40 Ebbw Vale - Cardiff will then work the Fishguard service with as mentioned above the unit coming in from Pembroke Dock  taking its place on the next departure to Ebbw Vale

Re swapping 158s between Shrewsbury/Holyhead etc and Maesteg/Cheltenham, isnt the early morning Chester-Cardiff-Maesteg a 158 or a 150? And doesnt a 158 or 150 get sent back up North on either the 20xx Chester service or 21xx Crewe service. I think this was the reason these are no longer through services from Milford/Carmarthen etc but start at Cardiff.

I think a 158 is covering for the 175 used on WAG2, on one Cardiff-Holyhead service (believe its the 1321 from Cardiff).  When both 175002 and the other 175 used on WAG2 are back in use on Milford/Cardiff/Manchester and Cardiff-Holyhead then we shouldnt see many sprinters used on these services hopefully.

Re swapping 158s between Shrewsbury/Holyhead etc and Maesteg/Cheltenham, isnt the early morning Chester-Cardiff-Maesteg a 158 or a 150? And doesnt a 158 or 150 get sent back up North on either the 20xx Chester service or 21xx Crewe service. I think this was the reason these are no longer through services from Milford/Carmarthen etc but start at Cardiff.  I think one of them is definately a 150 so that 150 sets can be swapped between the Wrexham local services and Cardiff.

I think a 158 is covering for the 175 used on WAG2, on one Cardiff-Holyhead service (believe its the 1321 from Cardiff).  When both 175002 and the other 175 used on WAG2 are back in use on Milford/Cardiff/Manchester and Cardiff-Holyhead then we shouldnt see many sprinters used on these services hopefully.

The 21:55 departure from Cardiff to Crewe is  normally a class 158 & I have seen a class 150 attached once before.

It used to run through from Milford-Carmarthen-Swansea all the way to Crewe now its too seperate services, the Milford-Cardiff part is a 175 so obviously they use the Cardiff-Crewe to send a 158 and/or 150 back up North.  I think the Chester service that goes about an hour before is a sprinter too.

I noticed when looking at Live Departure Boards today that the 1710 Swanline and the 18xx WAG2 Holyhead service had merged with the 1710 Swanline showing Holyhead as its destination.

And sure enough when I saw the train at Neath it was a 3 car 175 going all the way to Holyhead. Im sure this wasnt in the timetable??  But a quick look at a few other dates on the journey planner show this as a through service to Holyhead.

Good use of stock by Arriva tho, as I assume the 1514 Cardiff-Swansea was formed by the 175 with it being in Swansea ready for the 1710, so avoids the 175 WAG2 sitting in Cardiff for at least part of the afternoon.  Must have been a nice surprise for local passengers having a 3 carriage train when usually its a 1 car and can be very busy with it being the time people travel home from work.

I assume the 153 that would form the 0900 Shrewsbury-HOW-Swanline and arrives into Swansea it 14xx would therefore be used elsewhere for extra capacity. 

I have not accessed for a couple of days so will try and clear some of the recent points raiseden bloc in one post:-   However, some queroes cropping up in spite of being explained.
153 Radyr to Coryton Sats Sats swaps with Pacer West Wales
158 on Fishguard on retrun of 175002.   When -How long is a piece of string ?
WAG 175 has no link with 150s on Cardiff to Holyheads.    Reason explained already.
Pacers on West Wales High Summer not swapped with 153 on Radyr to Coryton. I have explained this already.
05 15 Chester to Maesteg and 20 17 Cardiff to Manchester swaps 158s North and South.
21 55 Cardiff to Crewe and 23 08 Shrewsbury to Cardiff swap 150s likewise.   These services were previously broken as through for this purpose.
Don't always believe that what you see working a trains is the diagrammed class, however often you see it.   This includes the 17 10 Swansea to Cardiff, the working of which I have already explained (09 05 Shrewsbury to Swansea)

If it stays a  2 or 3 carriage class 175 I can say the commuters who use the 17:10 Swansea - Cardif service will be very pleased myself included.

WAG1 is supposed to take up WAG2's northbound path in September I can see it going back to being a class 150/153 that said I suppose they could use the loco hauled set if the mk3's are equiped with powered door's

I have made some investigations and find that the 17 10 Swansea to Cardoff is extended to Holyhead on a Short Term Planning basis just for this week.  I don't kmow the reason behind it or if the arrangement is going continue through the Summer at this stage.   If I learn anything, I will post.  It cannot continue beyond September when Holyhead WAG becomes LHCS

Looking at the journey planner on National Rail Enquiries it does look like its a one off for this week. Its not even a connecting train in future weeks, it says to catch the 1655 from Swansea to connect with WAG2 or catch the 1710 and connect onto the 1934.

Its a shame as it works well and provides a direct train from Swansea to Chester and North Wales.

I was thinking that it might end in Sept anyway as I doubt the loco hauled set would be suitable for Swanline. If it ran from Swansea-Cardiff and only called at the bigger stations (Neath, Port Talbot and Bridgend) it might be ok but they would still need to cover the swanline at that time.

If through train would be a "connection" in theory, but if not the connectional allowance at Cardiff preclude this.

Yes, swanline is timetabled to arrive in Cardiff at 1820 even tho in theory there is slack in the timetable and it would prob arrive at 1816.  WAG2 is 1818 I believe so not possible to connect.

Journey Planner shews 18 16 arr.   There is recovery time approaching Cardiff

I notice the 1710 Swanline is still going to Holyhead - I guess this will be for the entire summer timetable?

I travelled on a Milford-Manchester last week between Cardiff and Neath - it was a 150 and not ideal for such a long journey, many people had luggage which was by the doors, i wonder how long until all 175s will be back in service?

Hopefully ATW should get the entire fleet of class 175's back in service again soon.

Hopefully once we get WAG2 scrapped in September that shoudl release the class 175 being used on that back onto teh long distance services.

Yes. Im also guessing from Sept they wont run the 1710 Swanline to Holyhead and it will revert to being a class 150 or 153.

I have heard from September timetable change the 1510 Swanline will run through to Chester. With the Holyhead express now being transferred to 18xx they will reinstate the 16xx service to Abergavenny (which still runs on Saturdays as an extention to Swanline0. Rumour has it the 1510 Swansea-Chester will incorporate a Shrews-Crewe local service and a Crewe-Chester service so the only "new" part will be Abergavenny to Shrewsbury. Its good that Swansea has a direct service to Chester, until the timetable changes last year the 2000 service off Swansea, instead of going to Manchester, went to Chester. And currently we have the 1710 swanline which goes to Holyhead as WAG2.

Apparently the 1510 will be run by a 175 from Sept timetable change which i guess makes sense as the diagram will end in Chester where the depot is for 175s. I wonder if that means the 175 currently on WAG2 will be transferred to this and therefore a 158 will still need to be diagrammed on either the 1321 Cardiff-Holyhead or 05xx Carmarthen-Manchester/10.30 Manchester to Milford etc even with 175002 coming back in Sept apparently. I also wonder whether the swanline diagram will be a 175 all day i.e. from its first journey at 9.14 from Cardiff-Swansea or will it swap at 13.14 from a 150 to a 175.

Ive noticed on Saturdays now the summer peak has arrived we have pacers all Pembroke diagrams, but during the week at least 2 diagrams ive see this week have been 153s. the 15.10 Swanline today was a 150 when usually thats a pacer on Saturdays and at least a few times over recent weeks on a weekday when ive seen it its been a pacer!

There is much we can conjecture as things have not 100% been finalised yet.    I do believe the 16 21 Cardiff to Chester will be independent of the Salop to Crewe local but until things have been uploaded I would rather reserve judgement.   You are not the only person wondering.    The 175 will probably be off a train from Llandudno Jcn running in the ppath of the present 175 worked WAG2.   If things develop as again we think they will do on the North Wales Coast with destinations being swapped between Holyhead, Bangor,  Llandudno Jn & Llandudno it may well be possible that a Unit may be saved which would solve the problem over a 158 covering the WG2 175.    Speculation at this stage is only becoming confusing and people on another Forum have more or less decided to wait and see at this stage.
Re Pembroke Docks, Weekdays next week should see 2 x 14xx and a pair of 153s during High Summer, the school holiday period.

I agree we should wait and see especially with with the rumoured shake up in the December 2012 timetable with the new timetable being put out for consultation soon.

In fact some ATW staff have told me of rumours of new additional services being proposed but as has been stated on other forums it doesnt seem likely based on how ATW have refused to make more use of their loco hauled stock.

There does see to be some shake ups happening with some trains being cut back to Bangor or Llandudno Jct.

Of course ATW also have 150217 out of action which isnt helping matters although things should be better once 175002 is back in service.

I am guessing we could see a particularly busy week on ATW services this week with it being the first week of the school holidays and a reasonably nice weather forcast, many people will be going away so using the long distance services plus on day trips to Tenby etc. Also its the Royal Welsh show this week. I would be surprised to see any single car formations on Pembroke Dock or HOW line.  It will be interesting to see how ATW will cope especially as they are still a 175 (or 2 if you count WAG2) and a 150 down.

Anyone know if Coryton will have 153s in order to free up pacers to cover some of the valley lines that would normally be run by 150s? I imagine extra 150s will be needed this week for HOW.  I know the extra HOW service from Cardiff Via the District line to Builth Road was a 4 car 150 last year, anyone know what it is booked as this week?

How do ATW manage to free up the pacers for the Summer Pembroke Dock services, both weekdays and Saturdays? Pembroke Docks are normally 153s so do they swap them or are there a few pacers that are spare, how many pacers are actually booked on a normal day? I know its been said on this thread that on weekdays 2 pacers are booked for high summer Pemb Docks plus a formation of 2x 153 on the other diagram.

It's far too late to begin public consultation on a timetable that starts in 5 months time.  The Dec 2012 timetable proposed alterations should have had a chop date of a couple of months back, it has to be completely ready in only a few weeks time, when it will become available to journey planners.

Paul 

As I have already said 2 Pacers and pair of 153s on Pembroke Dockds High Summer.  The Pacers come about through reductions on the Cardiff Valleys by single 150s working vice double pacers and swapping around.    It is assumed there will be less people travelling to/from work during holiday season.  Hardly likely to see 153s on Radyr/Corytons as they are usually coupled with 150s on Heart of Wales for the Show.    Don't forget 2x150s required for daily Special from Cardiff for the Show which runs via Swansea District Line and stables at Llandrindod during the day.  Availability can be enhanced by re-scheduling Maintenance.  They'll cope.

Updated timetables for ATW services for Sept-Dec 2012 are now online:

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/timetables/

I note there appears to be no northbound WAG restaurant service from 15th September. A service as far as Chester, no longer omitting Hereford, and with Standard Class only appears to be running in the path that the current WAG Express runs in.

If the northbound WAG Express is being withdrawn I better bring forward my plans to have another bash and slap-up meal.

I from Sept it was going at 1821 - the North bound WAG express.

I was aware that it was 2 x pacers on a weekday along with 2x153 on the third Pemb Dock Diagram but wasnt sure about Saturdays? A couple of summers ago all 3 Pemb Dock Saturday diagrams were pacers.

But not shown as conveying 1st Class or a restaurant in the Sept-Dec timetable.  ???

Is the WAG Express being top and tailed with locos? The morning southbound WAG Express from Holyhead is shown as travelling via Chester and Wrexham General from September, with only 5 minutes dwell time at Chester to perform the necessary reverse. Insufficient for a run round.

Three mark3 DVTs have appeared in the ATW refurbished 158 livery, it is expected one of these will be in use on the WAG express from the September timetable. It should be via Wrexham in both directions (though as you say the timetable doesn't show the 1st class and buffet facilities for the expected northbound service, so either they've made a mistake or something odd will be going on).

It has been noted on other forums that there has been a bit of a screw up with the latest ATW timetables.

The WAG from september is supposed to be formed of MK3's operating in push pull with a class 67 & DVTY exactly like Chilterns (Although the ATW mk3's I doubt will be as good as Chiltersn and are not being fitted with powered doors.)

So which timetabled service will be running the northbound WAG Express including 1st and restaurant? Is it the 1621 terminating Chester or the later 1821 via Wrexham through to Holyhead?

The 1821 will be the WAG express with restaurant and 1st class etc.  The 1621 will start in Swansea at 1510 and be run by a 175 apparently.

Thanks Jez.

So my next ATW 1st Class, with slap up scran, northbound jolly can wait until after Sept 15th. And I have the bonus of looking for overnight B&Bs in Wrexham as well as previously tentative plans for bedding down in either Chester or Crewe?

That suits me fine. Never been to Wrecsam (sic).  ;)

Pembroke Docks on Saturdays 2 x Pacers and a pair of 153s throughout the Summer (May to September) - Not 3 Pacers but there is also 1 Pacer on Saturdays through the Winter with 2 single 153s.

Ignore that link for the time being.

ATW have obviously realised that the the published Sept-Dec 2012 timetables were a bit of a dog's breakfast with numerous errors and have pulled them for the time being.

Did a trip yesterday and found 14 05 Shrewsbury to Swansea was 2x150, the Show Special also 2x150 and the 13 14 Swansea to Shrewsbury 150+153.   This meant virtually 1/7 of ATW 150s at Llandrindod Wells at the same time.   Also strengthening in the evening for Olympic Football in Cardiff, for example 2xPacers seen going to Ebbw Vale about 20 mins late.
For those who might be interested some good news that there was a 158 on the midday Fishguard boat.   This is actually diagrammed as from this week on the assumption that 175002 would be back.   Whether it is or not, I don't actually know.



_{Edit note: Quote marks fixed. Chris.}

Re last post there was a bonus this week re availability of 153s in so much as Bubbles is back on the Cardiff Bay after a long absence.  But for how long ?

More than likely I suspect they wont be able to start it come saturday Morning then it will be out of action for another 2 months or so.

ATWs 150280 which was leased to NXEA last year has been reported as ready to return.

Did not last that long.   Was a 153 on Friday.

Its possible 175002 might be back as the twice ive seen the 1708 Milford-Cardiff service this week its been a 175. (I believe that was the diagram the 158 was covering).

I heard on another forum another 175 was in an accident in West Wales yesterday? Thankfully it appears no-one was hurt but how unfortunate another 175 could now be out just as soon as ATW has possibly got 175002 back.

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11075.0 for details.  ;)

Yes 175101 although from what I have been able to find out it only suffered a glancing blow unlike 175002 so maybe repaired and back in service more quickly.

Glad to see 175002 back in service though and it will be nice to have 150280 back as well as well as 150217 when that is repaired.

Just seen a 5 car combination of pacer, 150 and 153 on the Cardiff-Fishguard/Pembroke Dock service. I assume the pacer will split from the sprinters at either Carmarthen or Whitland and one will go to Fishguard the other to Pembroke Dock.

On Saturday the Cardiff Bay train was a 153.

Booked 2 Pacers and 2 x 153s in High Summer and splitting for Pembroke Dock and Fishguard.   Obviously 150 working 153 Diagram which happens all the time.

Cardiff Bay today was being run by a pacer rather than a 153 which i understand usually covers when the 121 is out of service.

While I was on the hst to Pembroke Dock this afternoon leaving swansea I noticed two class 175's working the 12:05 service from Swansea to Carmarthen. While 175002  was working the 11:10 Milford Haven - Manchester service

I was at Neath waiting for the 11.40 towards Cardiff when I saw the HST Pembroke Dock arrive into Neath, it was running around 5 mins late i think. A 175 did pass before id got to Port Talbot which would have been the Manchester-Carmarthen service but i didnt notice how many cars it was.

I got the 1738 Swanline back, expected it to be packed with it being a 2 car (it used to be 4 car on a Saturday as run through from Ebbw Vale which it still may do?) but fortunately it was ok. They did mention a few times on the tannoy that there would be another train for Bridgend, Port Talbot etc in around 10 mins so maybe people opted for that.

What usually runs the Conwy Valley train? I am up in North Wales soon and might take a trip on the Conwy Valley line.

I believe a class 150 is used during the summer with a clas 153 in use during the winter although this can change at short notice.

Was 150 last Winter also

Maybe because they had a 153 away because it hit a tree.

153 used to work Blaenau Ffestiniog in the Winter and Salop to Crewe local in the Summer and the 150 vice versa.    There were the normal number of 153 Diagrams last Winter with the 153 on Salop to Crewe local and 150 on Branch.  Nothing to do with a 153 hitting a tree.  That is how they were diagrammed under normal circumstances.

150280 which went on lease to NXEA before last Christmas arrived back at Cardiff today at end of lease.

175005 might now be away for a while, it was on 15:21 Cardiff Central to Holyhead on Friday 10th August with 175009 leading.
175005 has a hole in the drivers cab

Pictures here
http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv47/animationmilo/DSCN5862.jpg

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv47/animationmilo/DSCN5864.jpg

Thanks, I may take a trip on the Conwy Valley line.

So as soon as 175002 is back they are another 175 down. Ive not noticed many 158s covering Manchesters in the last few weeks tho, have all of them apart from the booked Saturday 158 diagram been 175s? 

Yesterday
14:55 Swansea to Manchester was 158819 last silver 158(my friend said)
17:55 Swansea to Manchester was 158833

Yes I saw the 1455, also saw the same 158 on the earlier journey to Milford, around 11am off Swansea.

I think the 1355 from Swansea-Manchester was a 150 today? Anyone able to confirm this? Maybe this is covering for the 175 that was damaged recently. Odd choice for that diagram to be covered by a 150 tho as that would form the 18.30 back from Manchester which ive used many times and can be quite busy - think its booked 3 car.

Booked 2 Car.   You cannot say it is directly related to a particular 175 out of action.
I keep on stressing that much depends on what is available at a particular location at the start of the day which depends on where they they finish the night before.   There might have been a surplus elsewhere but in the wrong place.   This could be the result of 101 things throwing diagrams out.

I think the 1830 needs to be booked 3 car as its been a very busy service even on the times ive caught it when it has been 3 cars.

Im not saying it is for that reason definately, but if they are a 175 down something has to cover.

If you make the 17 30 a 3 Car you would have to rob something else.   Ideally all the Marches would benefit from 3 Cars but there are just not enough.   The way the Timetable on the route works to a pattern it can be light in the morning on a diagram but busy in the evening and vice versa.

ATW have published the new timetables online which come into effect from 3rd spetember.

One major change is that the 07:50 ATW service from Cardiff to Milford Haven is now booked to call at all of the Swanline stations arriving into Swansea at 08:53 and the 08:09 Cardiff - Shrewsbury service (which operates via the Heart of wales line) will only stop at the major stations and also Pyle arriving into Swansea at 09:08. This does help improve the reliability of the this service which is frequently late as the class 153 cannot seem to keep to time.

Still waiting for a  later  last service from Swansea to Cardiff however as I think the current 22:32 Swansea - Cardiff service is too early and ideally the last  service from Swansea to Cardiff should be at 23:10 and call at all stations including Pencoed & Pontyclun

Yes IMO 153s are useless on the main line. Tho i guess they have no choice as have to send them back to Canton somehow from HOW and Pemb Dock lines and Crewe local services. The 1710 Swansea-Cardiff has been noticeable more on time since it was booked as a 175 from May. Guess it reverts back to a 153 or 150 from Sept.

Good idea having the swanline as part of Milford service, people from Swanline stations can get into Swansea now for a 9am start which wasnt possible when it was the later service from Cardiff. I work in Neath and would be tempted to get the Swanline now rather than drive to work if i dont need the car for journeys that day, currently arriving into Neath at 0856 is a bit tight to get to the office in time for 9am.

Ideally we could do with an extra swanline eastbound in the morning, there is a huge gap between the first and second service. The first is too early for a 9am start in Cardiff and the second doesnt get there until after 10am. If the 0745 Manchester service was to start at Milford slightly early and thefore arrive into and depart Swansea earlier, at say 0735 (to leave a decent gap after the 0728), then it could call at all Swanline stations (it already calls at Pyle and Llanharan) and arrive into Cardiff around the same time as it does currently and be in time for workers to get to Cardiff for 9am.

I agree we definately could do with a later service from Swansea to Cardiff calling at all stations, particularly on a Friday and Saturday night as 10.30pm seems a bit too early for most people to leave Swansea on those evenings, worst on Saturday as it departs earlier around 22.20.

On sunday evenings the last service is at 23:30 so in my opinion I would like to see the 21:09 Pembroke Dock - Swansea service extended to Cardiff Central on weekdays as this would give a departure from Swansea to Cardiff at 23:28

Doesnt that unit go on to form the overnight Fishguard departing Swansea around 23.45 and then go onto the HOW 0436 the next day? If that was the case another unit would need to be sent from Cardiff.

I think so although you could in fact attach another unit at Carmarthen, besides after electrification the swanline services should be cut back to Swansea and worked by emu's.

That said I wouldnt be surprised if we still see some unist running under the  wires from west wales to Cardiff so that they can visit canton depot unless ATW plan on taking over Llandore to service and fuel the dmu's based for west wales services

I hope the Manchester services continue at least as far as Swansea and run under the wires as it would be a shame not to have a direct service to Manchester from Swansea/Neath etc.

I think we will see a lot of changes.

If the Manchesters do run under the wires, then I hope they terminate at Swansea and are lengthened to 4-6 coaches (loco-hauled). Services from west of Swansea going via Swansea to Cardiff/Manchester would be a waste in my opinion, partly because a train of 4-6 coaches wouldn't be justified west of Swansea most of the time. The current service (slightly more than hourly) that has Swansea as an intermediate calling point on trains from S.W.Wales should be reduced to hourly, but running via the Swansea District Line with replacment Swansea services from both directions terminating at Swansea.

Everything using the line between Swansea and Briton Ferry (except Swanline, and perhaps services that combine with trains from Maesteg) should probably be at least 4 coaches, the only 2-car DMUs on the route from Cardiff to Swansea should be between Britton Ferry and Cardiff (the hourly SDL express service from S.W.Wales to Cardiff/Bristol/Portsmouth).

I agree. It would be sense if there was this service pattern;

1 train per hour from Carmarthen to Cardiff via District line calling at Pembrey and Burry Port, Llanelli, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend and Cardiff Central.

1 train per hour from Swansea to London Paddington calling at Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Cardiff, Newport, Bristol, Swindon, Reading and London Paddington.

1 train per hour from Swansea to Manchester calling at Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Cardiff, Newport, etc

1 train per hour from Swansea to Cardiff calling at Llansamlet, Skewen, Neath, Briton Ferry, Baglan, Port Talbot, Pyle, Bridgend and Cardiff Central.   Id make Swanline hourly as its long overdue if they want to devlop it as a proper local service.

1 train per hour from Swansea to either Milford Haven or Pemb Dock providing them with a two hourly service each and Swansea to Carmarthen would have an hourly service. Calling at Gowerton, Llanelli, Pembray and Burry Port, Kidwelly, Ferryside, Carmarthen, Whitland and all stations west. Passengers from Carmarthen who wanted to travel further could use the district line service for Port Talbot/Bridgend/Cardiff. They would have to change at Swansea if they wanted Neath. Milford/Pembroke passengers would have to change at Swansea for services further afield, Pembroke passengers already need to do this most of the time.

Fishguard services would be as now with 1 from Cardiff via district and 2 per day from Cardiff via Swansea.

My service pattern would be:

Carmarthen/Llanelli - Llanelli/Swansea

• 1tph Carmarthen - Cardiff Central calling at Llanelli, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend and Cardiff Central* - worked by class 158 units

• 1tph Carmarthen - Swansea calling at all Stations - worked by class 150/2 units or 156s/153s
• 1tph Carmarthen - Swansea calling at Pembrey and Burry Port, Llanelli, Gowerton and Swansea - worked by class 156 units, 153s in multiple or 175s.
• Plus maybe 1tph local service from HOWL/Ammanford/Glanamman&Garnant to Swansea to connect with the SDL train at Llanelli

West Of Carmarthen

• 0.5tph Milford Haven / Fishguard** to Cardiff/Bristol (extension of above SDL service)
• 0.5tph Milford Haven - Swansea*** (extension of Carmarthen - Swansea services)
• 0.5tph Fishguard - Swansea*** (extension of Carmarthen - Swansea services)
• 0.5tph (1tph if it can be accelerated enough to path it) Pembroke Dock - Swansea (extension of Carmarthen - Swansea services)

Swansea - Neath

• 1tph Swansea - London Paddington calling at Neath, Port Talbot, Bridgend, Cardiff, Newport, Reading and London Paddington****
  
• 1tph Swansea - Ebbw Vale Parkway calling at all stations (hourly Swanline service)*****
• 1tph Swansea - Bristol Temple Meads calling at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Pyle, Bridgend and Cardiff Central (then taking path and stops of current Cardiff - Taunton)
• 1tph Swansea - Manchester calling at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend, Cardiff Central, Newport, Abergavenny, Hereford, Leominster, Ludow, Shrewsbury and selected stations to Manchester

Oddball Services

• 07:30 Carmarthen to English Destonation*&* (could originate at Milford Haven, and/or if the Manchesters are running to Swansea with LHCS go to Manchester instead of *&*) 6-Car LHCS to replace current IC125 worked Paddington service. This would travel via Swansea and call at all stations except Ferryside and Kidwelly and be a named train (I think the current name is 'The Red Dragon' and would keep it if so).
• A perfect mirror working to the above in the evening, would call at Swansea around 17:20, also named
• A named train, 'The Pembroke Coast Express' departing Pembroke Dock at around 10am running limited-stop to *&*. This is also a 6-Car LHCS to replace current IC125 worked Paddington service and would run during the summer timetable, starting from Carmarthen in winter
• Again there would be a mirror working to the above, also named 'The Pembroke Coast Express'
• On summer weekends (and maybe Mondays and Fridays, but probably not days in between), one of the Pembroke Dock - Swansea diagrams would be replaced by extended Manchester services with 6-car LHCS, or by back workings from the above IC125 replacement services

If not all the above can be pathed I think it is the Swansea - Manchester that should go, partly because it would still be diesel and partly because I think the Bristol service is more important.

* As you had it Jez but without the P&B.P. stop. Ideally, if the Portsmouth - Cardiff service isn't terminated at Bath after electrification, I'd have this service continue to Portsmouth.
** Either this would be the entire Fishguard service and Milford line passengers would have to change at Swansea/Carmarthen for Cardiff or the SDL runs would be Milford services most of the day with one going to Fishguard instead, to meet the ferry, with Milford line getting an extra Swansea train instead.
*** Would be hourly to Milford and not at all to Fishguard if Fishguard gets the SDL service every two hours
**** The Cardiff - Paddingtons in between the Swanseas would continue to call at Bristol Parkway, Swindon and Didcot
***** I would have said Cheltenham Spa instead of Ebbw Vale but the lack of wires prevents it
*&* Either Bristol Temple Meads, Portsmouth Harbour or London Waterloo (via Bristol T.M.)

As well as those services above I would also have these "extra" services in addition to the standard timetable proposed;

Id keep the first 2 trains of the day from Carmarthen to Manchester, (but both would run via Swansea not the first via the district as now). They would depart Carmarthen around 0515 and 0645. Id keep the 1630 and 1830 departures off Manchester as a through service to Carmarthen (wouldnt send the 1830 via the district line either).

Id have 2 trains per day in each direction from Paddington-Carmarthen - currently i believe its one a day.  Also id keep the current summer Saturday Paddington-Pembrokes. 

So there would be 4 trains a day in total in both directions that would run as Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff.  All other Carmarthen-Cardiff direct trains would run via the district and therefore wouldnt call at Swansea and Neath.

The Heart of Wales line id have as a stand alone service. Assuming no timetable changes 2 units would be required to run the service. One would be stabled at Shrewsbury overnight and one come off the overnight fishguard as now, which the night before could start from Cardiff Central in order to move a set to Swansea. There would be good connections at Llanelli further West and from Swansea further East so passengers can continue journeys from HOW stations with as little disruption as possible.

As Rhydgaled suggets, id probably extend the Swanline to run as far as Bristol Temple Meads, and have it call (after Cardiff) at Newport, Severn Tunnel Junction, Patchway and Filton Abbey Wood. Possibly a few trains a day could extend as far as Taunton, Exeter and/or Paignton if there were paths. A seperate hourly Bristol TM-Taunton service would then be run to compensate the loss of running to Taunton on the Cardiff stopping service. Possibly this could start at Bristol Parkway and provide a good connection for passengers there from South Wales.

Im not sure about running Portsmouth services as a through service from West Wales, as the Swansea-London services provide good connections at Cardiff into/out of the Portsmouth Harbour service (assuming the London train is on time in both directions!).

I noticed yesterday it was back to a 153 running the Cardiff Bay train, its been a pacer when ive seen it recently.

It has not got to be a 153 but just something to replace Bubbles depending on availability on the day.   A 153 is the most suitable.

I travelled on 175002 today, first time since its been back i think. It was on the 1514 Cardiff-Swansea (which then went on to form the 17.10 Swansea-Holyhead.

I picked up a copy of the new timetables for West Wales and Maesteg to Cardiff and South Wales to North Wales and Manchester from the station today, they arent on display yet (at least not at Port Talbot), I had to ask for them.

One thing I noticed was on Saturdays the HOW service leaving Cardiff around 08xx still has Swanline stops on a Saturday whilst during the week they have moved to the Milford Haven service. More and more ive noticed the Saturday timetable being very different to the weekday one when at one time they were very simular.

Does anyone know whether the daytime Swanline diagram on weekdays that starts with the 0914 from Cardiff-Swansea, will be formed of a 175 all day. Or will they just swap the set at Cardiff for a 175 at 13.14 so its moved to Swansea in time for the 1510 service to Chester? I guess it depends if that 175 is coming off another service, possibly a North Wales-South Wales one? I guess the weekday 1710 from Swansea will return to being a 153 or 150. Today the 175 was fairly busy on the Cardiff-Swansea run and i imagine it would be even busier on the journey from Swansea-Cardiff.  So it would feel like a step back in some ways if its to be a 153 again.  I know on Saturdays its often been a 150 or even a 153+153 on occasions, but a good proportion of the time its a single 153 and very busy.

The 17:10 Swansea - Cardiff is terrible when worked by a single class 153 which simply cannot cope with a full load and struggles between stops and often delayes the 17:28 Swansea - London Paddington hst behind it.

I am glad ATW got ride of the Pontyclun stop on the 17:30 service though.

 I am certainly glad  the 08:09 Cardiff - Shrewsbury services has been sped up on weekdays as it frequently is delayed before it even gets to Swansea & the 07:50 from Cardiff to Milford Haven should be re-timed to depart 5 minutes earlier at 07:45 arriving into Swansea at 08:48.

The Saturday services are different .    Following a change in stopping patterns to speed up trains on the Marches with some of them leaving Cardiff for West earlier (at XX 39) and preceding the London from Cardiff, the passengers of which would have formerly connected at Swansea for West Wales.   With the new pattern they change at Cardiff from the London terminator, but on a Saturday there is only an hourly London service so the times West of Cardiff were left unaltered..

I noticed that Skewen and Briton Ferry now have departure screens on the platforms which is useful for passengers if the train is delayed so they know whats happening and how long the delay is.

Not sure if Baglan and Pyle now have them but i know Llansamlet have had screens for a long while. Id have thought with Pyle being the busiest of the Swanline stations they would have had them first!

Things seem to be back getting back to normal again now after the summer peak as today i spotted a single 153 on a pembroke dock diagram. This morning the 06xx off Cardiff to Pembroke/Fishguard was a pair of 150s! Perhaps the 153s had low availability and 150s covered.

Good job perhaps as the weather was great and the schools don't go back until to-morrow.   At least in our place.

Don't go back til Thursday here...  Grrr... flipping kids   ;D ;D

I think its tomorrow in most places because they have today as an "INSET" day!  :)

Without giving away my age, they didn't have such things when I was at school !!!

It always surprises me that teachers need five In Service Training (INSET) days per academic year. On top of 13 weeks off for Summer, Christmas, Easter and half-terms. Can they not do their INSET during those periods?

They didn't when I was.  Didn't have GCSEs either!

They used to be called "Baker days" because Kenneth Baker was the Education Minister when they were introduced.  As I recall, the teachers wanted a pay rise and they couldn't have one so they had these in term training days instead so they didn't have to use their holidays.

Ahh, yes. I remember teachers striking over this, and other pay related issues, in the late 1980's when I was at secondary school.

We had BBC Points West outside my school one afternoon and I was asked by the reporter what I thought of the strike. I replied with, "It's stupid." I did go on to explain why I thought it was stupid, but a 15 year old's further analysis of the situation (I don't remember what points I made) was not deemed worthy of broadcast.

That evening I appeared on BBC Point's West for all of 2 seconds saying, "It's stupid."

Pyle station is currently being fitted with information screens although not actually on the platforms but above the walkways at the eastern end of the station.

Still about time too Pyle should have been fitted years ago.

The 175 will go down to Swansea on the 13 14 ex Cardiff to work the 15 10 to Chester.  It will work the former WAG2 (07 51 from Holyhead) which becomes an ordinary train and starting from Llandudno and which currently works the 18 21 Cardiff to Holyhead nut which will become the Loco Hayled WAG express.   Just a swap, in effect, one for one.   The 150 off the 09 14 Cardiff & return will just sit at Canton from linchtime until it's Rhymney working later.



Edited to fix quote. bignosemac.

They should use the 150 from the 09:14 on the 17:10. Would be better than the 153. Unless heart of wales every morning is 150.

It can't work the 17 10 Swansea to Cardiff AND 17 01 Cardiff to Rhymney.   Off the 09 14, it retuns to Cardiff on 11 10 Swanline.

I meant to say yesterday, also, that the 17 40 Cardiff to Milford ahven will become a 3 Car 175 in lieu of a 2 Car.   This service is noted for severe overcrowding.   I t will replace a 2 Car for the day, of course, going up on the 08 04 Fishguard Hbr.   I know this will disappoint a number of people but the Daytime Fishguard Boat reverts back to a 150 again but a 158 on the 14 35 Gloucester to Fisguard Hbr.

Thanks for the info phile on what is happening re the 1314/1510 Swanline.

I know you have said in the past sometimes 158s cover 175 diagrams if sets are in the wrong place, but i noticed there were 2 158s on Manchester-West Wales diagrams today. The 1555 and 1855 from Swansea were both 158s. The 1855 regularly used to be a 158 when 175002 was out being repaired. I know the 1855 doesnt actually go to Manchester but it is the end of a Manchester-Milford diagram from earlier in the day.

Also its worth noting the 0809 Cardiff-Swansea-Shrewsbury was a 150 this morning, most of the time recently its been a 153. Again prob covering esp as the Cardiff Bay line appears to still be a 153 at the moment.

I do agree that the 1710 needs to be at least 2 car and if it does revert back to a 153 it will be a step back to some degree but Arriva cant really do much if all other sets are booked for other journeys.

I caught a glimpse of the screens at Pyle as i was passing through on a FGW HST train this afternoon. I could see they were at the end of the platform.

Re 13 14 and 15 10 Swanline just scroll up to post a couple of days ago. 175 and going through to Chester

Why can't they put appropriate rolling stock on the Fishguard boat train all year round, why only weekdays in the summer timetable (surely if they can provide a 158 on summer weekdays then they should be able to source one all the time, unless one fails)?

On Friday at Shrewsbury a terminiating train was announced as coming from Llandrindod, is there a short-working in the timetable or was the HOWL closed at some intermediate point?

When you look at it the mid-day Fishguard journey is only little over 2 hours from Cardiff so it's not really long haul.   There has been an overhaul of some 158 Diagrams due to alterations on the North Wales coast which has knock-on effect.

The Reason for the Llandrindod train is because, the 14:04 from Shrewsbury to Swansea was terminated back from Llandrindod, because the 13:14 Swansea to Shrewsbury was 67 minutes due to signalling problems near Swansea to Llaneli, so the 13:14 of Swansea was terminated at Llanwyrtd to keep the trains at 18:05 from Shrewsbury and 18:21 from Swansea on time.

Had a look at the new information screens at Pyle early this morning before I went to work. I must admit  they are good although I dont really think they are suitable where they have been placed and would be more better actually on the platform.

Still this solves a particular problem at Pyle which hasnt helped to get more people to use the station and that if services are disrupted or trains are cancelled  the only way to know before was to either use and app or call national rail enquiries.

I have seen a lot of people end up driving to Bridgend or Cardiff because they simply felt they couldnt get a reliable service from Pyle (Mopst particulary the 09:44 departure to Cardiff which I have found to be cancelled or heavily delayed. This I think has put off a few people from travelling by train from Pyle although the rather poor off peak service is also another factor which hopefully will be fixed soon.

About two years ago the 09:44 train from Pyle to Cardiff was cancelled however I decided to wait til around 10:35 before getting a bus to Bridgend however I was shocked when the 09:00 Carmarthen - Manchester service made an unscheduled stop at 10:20 (Certainly shocked some passengers who had been waiting at Pyle but decided to get the train from Bridgend when they saw me on it and I told them it had stopped at Pyle.)

The decision to extend the 07:10 Pembroke Dock - Swansea service through to Cardiff Central has actually been good as if the 09:44 train is cancelled people only have to wait at least 20 minutes.

The only complaint I have had recently is the decision to use a class 150 on the 05:04 Carmarthen - Manchester service at least as far as Cardiff instead of a class 175 as the units simply cannot keep to the timetable especially between Bridgend & Cardiff.

Hopefully once the south wales mainline is wired to Swansea we will see a shake up of services including  a regular hourly off peak service  serving Pyle with a half hourly (the same as now) during the peaks.

There is no decision to use a 150 on the 05 04 Carmarthen to Manchester as a regular event.  It's just how it happens on the day.  If a 150 arrives at Carmarthen vice a 175 the night before it has to be got rid of and to change ot at Cardiff is a bonus.

I was shocked on Sunday morning when i turned up at Neath to catch the first Manchester train (the 0943 from Neath which starts from Carmarthen) and it was a pair of 150s. I believe this is booked as 2 x 175s as far as Cardiff and then 1 x 175 to Manchester. I asked the man who was doing the trolley service if this was going all the way to Manchester and he said yes and that there had been a fault with the 175 so they sent this instead. At Cardiff there seemed to be some confusion as to whether the set was to be split, the platform staff were expecting it to be but apparently the train crew had been informed it as to be sent to Manchester, In the end both 150s went onwards to Manchester.  Nice extra capacity having a 4 car. Shame it cant be like that during the week when its most needed.

I am much more likely to drive to Port Talbot or Neath and get the train from there, there is at least a half hourly service whilst swanline is 2 hourly. In the morning the swanline timetable is particularly useless for the Cardiff direction, not so bad for Swansea.

I think the 0504 off Carmarthen/1030 off Manchester/1708 off Milford was a 158 regularly whilst 175002 was out.  Now its more reliably back to a 175, tho tonight was a 158 on that diagram.  I thought 150s were ok at keeping to time? There was no problem on Sunday when a 150 covered a 175 diagram. Its when its a 153 it struggles.

So from Monday i guess we can expect a 153 again on the 1710 Swanline. I think all trains departing Swansea in either direction in the evening peak need to be at least 2 car.

The 17:39 Cardiff-Milford Haven was 2 car, 175008 today.

The 17:10 was formed of 150282 which came down Heart of Wales to Cardiff & came back to Swansea arriving 16:20.

So the 17:39 ran short formed on the first day  ::)

I guess a 150 on the 1710 Swanline was down to luck more than anything, as a 153 would be booked on that diagram?

Can anyone confirm what is now on the Gloucester-Cardiff-Fishguard service which is now supposed to be a 158? And the 1510 Swanline (Chester) service?

Gloucester to Fishguard is booked a 158 and the 15 10 Swansea to Chester a 175/0.   I have posted this info already.

Yes I know. If you read my post you will see I was asking what actually ran those journeys in reality not what was booked.

Sorry Jez.  Didn't realise you were referring to the day.   15 10 certain 176 but too early to eally tell yet what is happening inreality although seen report 158 on Fishguard yesterday.

Today
175001 on 15:10

153312 on 17:10
The 17:05 Fishguard was 150213

and 18:41 Milford Haven(17:39 from Cardiff) was 175103 - 3 Car

Thanks.

Wednesday 19th:

175006 on 15:10

158818 on 17:10(was not from heart of wales)
The 17:05 Fishguard was 158823

and 18:41 Milford Haven(17:39 from Cardiff) was 175114 - 3 Car

The affected service which was always a 3 car and has been a 2 car Today and yesterday(18th) is 16:55 Swansea to Manchester(15:08 Milford) was 175009 today.

Thanks for the info. Surprised a 158 turned up on swanline, hopefully a sign of things to come. How many unrefurbished 158s are still about? Not seen one for several weeks now.

The 1655 is the one i see pass Neath around 1705 and its usually very busy.

20 Sept Trains, Slightly different

I noticed online the 06:30 Manchester to Milford was terminated at Newport running 35 minutes late, And a new service started from Cardiff to Milford and that ment

14:55 Swansea to Manchester was 158831 however that ONLY went to Cardiff and terminated straight back for 17:05 Swansea to Fishguard Harbour.

17:10 Cardiff was 150231

16:55 was again a 2 car, 175001 today.

18:41 was 175104 today, 3 car.

I travelled on the 1510 Swansea-Chester today (Friday) as far as Briton Ferry, it was formed of 175006.

I think the 1710 today will be a 150 again as I saw the 1310 pass that was a 150 and then going back on the 1514 off Cardiff was a 150 also. Its good to see that the 1710 appears to still be a 2 car most of the time, even if its no longer a 175.

1655 was again a 2 car 175 and 1900 was a 3 car 175 (isnt that booked as a 2 car?)

1710 was a 150.

Monday

1510 Swansea-Chester was a 3 car 175, as was the 1655 Swansea-Manchester (which last week seemed to be a 2 car)

1555 Swansea-Manchester I think was a 150, also a 150 on the 1710 Swanline and the 1705 Swansea-Fishguard. 

Ive noticed the 1710 Swanline is often a 150 now, not sure if its booked as such or if its just a coincidence a 150 is covering a 153 diagram. Does that still start at the 0436 HOW service or does it get swapped somewhere?

17 10 Swansea to Cardiff as 150 more by luck than judgement.  Does 04 36 ex Swansea to Shrewsbury off night Fishguard.

Was passing through Shrewsbury again yesterday (Sunday 23rd September 2012) where a 158 (with the new 'Welsh Government' logo) was sat at what looks like a disused platform on the platform 7 side of the station. A spare unit on standby?

At 17:54:04 (that's what it says on the LED infomation signs, I have a photo) 150282 arrived (terminating, at platform 5) from Wolverhampton. 'That's odd' I thought, ATW don't run Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury services do they? (and the pair of 158s I had arrived on from Aberystwyth said it was bound for Birmingham so as far as I could guess it wasn't that Wolves-Birmingham was shut). At the same time, 153362 pulled in to platform 4 with my service to Manchester and a class 150 (150227 as I found out on reaching MAN) in tow.

Was all that booked to happen or is it just how the cards landed after being thrown in the air?

It's part of the standard pattern service. From both Chester and Aberystwyth/Pwllheli to Birmingham International.



Edit note: Quote marks corrected, for clarity. CfN.

The train arriving Shrewsbury at that time and worked by 150282 would be the Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton "all stations shuttle".  It is booked for a 153 but as 150s frequently cover for 153s, especially on HOW whence it would have come on Saturday, that would be the explanation.   LM work no services on the route on Sundays but cover the stoppers on weekdays.

I am aware that ATW run services over the line, but didn't think they had any that were scheduled to terminate at Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton (ie. I thought all ATW's services over the line ran to/from Birmingham).

So it was the stopper, that I thought was always LM operated, that 150282 was running then. Thanks for clearing that up.

This service was introduced approx year ago to call at the local stations to speed up the Birmingham Internationals and ease overcrowding on them.

1710 Swanline (which starts as the 0436 Heart of Wales up service/0900 down) still appears to be a 150. The 0811 Cardiff-Swansea-Shrewsbury was also a 150 today.  So 2/3 of trains on HOW today were 150s. Could be a sign of things to come with the free pass now starting. I guess the 0916 off Swansea and the 0900 off Shrewsbury are the 2 which are the most useful to be 2 cars.

Also a 158 on a Carmarthen-Manchester diagram today - the first one of the day that goes via Swansea around 0705, then formed the 11.30 journey back then ends up on the 1755 Swansea back up again.

That'll be because it was substituted at Cardiff yesterday. The 7.05 was delayed by a fault, arrived late at Swansea and held behind the 7.28.  I just missed the 7.28 and thought the 'extra' train would make my connection, but ended up losing time and running more or less in the path of the 7.45 and terminating at Cardiff, the 7.45 running slightly late behind it.

Apparently the line to S.W.Wales via Swansea is closed for engineering works on Saturday 13th October and trains will be diverted via the Swansea District Line. Is this connected with the re-doubling work?

Also, does anyone know if any class 158s are diagramed for these diverted services over the Swansea District Line? I'd like to get some film/photographs of one going over a viaduct (I think the one I'm thinking of is close to Llangennech and visible from the M4, running paralell to it), (an Intercity 125 would be good too if First Great Western's services are being diverted).

I think the FGW services are running through to Swansea and the Pembroke Dock - Swansea services are terminating/starting from Llanelli.

The 06:30 Manchester - Milford Haven and 13:10 Milford Haven - Manchester service should be a class 158 on saturday Also the 12:05 service from Cardiff to Milford Haven on sundays is nearly always a class 158 and runs via the Swansea District Line.

I might look into train times for Saturday as ive never been on the district line.

I noticed the 1655 Swansea-Manchester appeared to be a 158 today. Rare for that one not to be a 175.

There are some good views on the district line I know I am intending on getting some photos at different points along the route.

I have never been on the district but live really close to the line, its mainly because of the poor service, either very early morning or late night, or the Fishguard which only stops at Cardiff and then next stop Llanelli.

I took a trip on the district line yesterday, I went from Cardiff-Llanelli. Its a pity this line doesnt get used very much for passenger services, it would be suitable for an extra hourly service between Carmarthen-Cardiff just calling at Pembrey, Llanelli, Port Talbot and Bridgend. Would take the pressure off the Manchesters around Port Talbot/Bridgend as they are often busy around there esp if they are 2 cars. Its a shame there is a restriction on speed on the line as you done really benefit much from saving the time it would take to go via Neath and Swansea.

I think what would have been the 1455 off Swansea but obviously went via the district yesterday was a 158. Most of the others were 175s I think.

Also yesterday the train i caught back from Cardiff (1542 to Milford Haven) appaeared to be formed of the ex 1033 Holyhead-Cardiff train which was a 175. Im sure the 1542 is meant to be a through service from Manchester departing at 1230 so not sure what happened yesterday, whether the Manchester was terminated in Cardiff and replaced?

I have noticed a good proportion of times the 1601 Cardiff-Fishguard has been a 150 when i believe its now booked as a 158.

Does anyone know how the new station at Fishguard is doing?  Are the additional trains being used enough?

I want an hourly Carmarthen - Cardiff district line express service too but I would not have it call at Pembrey & Burry Port, and despite the speed restrictions it would still be about 15minutes quicker than via Swansea! In the long run you could do so work to lift some of the speed restrictions and journey times would be slashed.

I managed to see the 158 on the 06:30 ex-Manchester going over the viaduct I was after so that's good.

Got a link to the photo/video?

Anyway I too would like to see a regular hourly service running via the Swansea district line and a station built near Morriston which can act as a park & ride hub taking pressure off the M4 and with good bus links to Morriston Hospital etc.