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Rail ticketing will be made simpler and easier to understand , Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly has promised (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7015554.stm

Her pledge follows a survey by Which? suggesting about only half of people who make enquiries get the "best deal".

In one example , a passenger making a return journey between Swindon and Penzance twice in the same week could buy a Freedom of the South West rover ticket for ^70 , but both the enquiry line staff and station staff quoted ^67 per journey - nearly double the cheapest price.

Remember the last time we were told tickets were getting simpler. We ended up with First Minute Fares. (Leisure,Business,A,B,C,E,First.Standard etc.)

See  there is one or 2 things about this. If you ask for a SWI-PNZ, they must tell you it, IIRC, they aren't allowed to say something like, "Get a SWI-BTM then a BTM-PLY then a PLY-PNZ"

Agreed.  I understand that's how the staff are instructed - they typically know about the savings but can't say.   I wonder what the majority of them feel about being put in this position - that they're being made to sell a more expensive product than they have to (i.e. they would prefer to offer the best deal) or that passengers splitting the fare are cheating the system?

A thought.   If everyone bought the correct / lowest priced ticket or combo for their journey, average fares paid would go down to the extent that fare in general might have to rise ....

Not strictly true, FGW arent strict on that ruling to their staff and i've never known of anyone being told off over offering the ticket's, the problem is that it just confuses the passenger if you offer it and you end up with a big queue and foreign passengers seem to think that your robbing them! I offered a foreign woman a Ply-Tvp CDS and Tvp-Bri CDS the other day which saved a fortune on the saver single but she wouldn't have it and seemed to think I was trying to get more money from her! It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation! Sometimes it makes an easy life to keep your mouth shut.

I've never had a problem with FMF. Always nice and cheap.

What I would suggest is for all TOCs to combine that share the same routes. For example from Paignton-Bristol I have the option of advance purchase on VT (Rip off) or FGW (cheap)

What would be ideal for this journey
Value Advance C
Value Advance B
Value Advance A
Value Advance C First
Value Advance B First
Value Advance A First
All offering more availability and better prices and valid on both operators.
Along with
Saver Return
Standard Return (no restrictions)
First Saver Return
First Standard Return (no restrictions)

Also every station should cost more than its previous...

I have no problem with the price of FirstMinuteFares but there are just so many of them. I agree that there should just be 3 standard and 3 first.

Nothing ever get more simple. Remember the removal of the Super Saver to simplify the fares structure?? Then a few months later we get a new 'Business Saver' to go with the Saver. Back to square one.

I think that the ruling that staff don't offer ticket combinations unless asked is a sensible rule.  Inagine if tehy were obliged to offer combinations were they were cheaper.  Their life would become impossibly complicated, queques would lengthen and they would get the blame if tehy sold you the wrong combination (ie a combination which was cheaper but not the cheapest)

Why not solve the problem by attaching a fixed price to each mile of track?.

Why not solve the problem by attaching a fixed price to each mile of track?.
[/quote]

Careful that's going back to how things used to be, Donkeys Years Ago.
Of Course whilst Ticket Prices were based on Mileage, Large Engineering Works like Long Tunnels or Viaducts would have a Mileage Surcharge place on them, so local passengers would pay MORE, NOTHING CHANGES!

Remember the Old Printed National Time Tables? On the First Page of Each Time Table was  a Column giving Mileage to the Nearest 1/4 mile that goes back to when the booking clerk would add up the Mileage for a Given Journey and then multiply the Mileage by the price per Mile then being charged. So if the Journey was 48 3/4 miles and the ppm was 1d then the fare was 4 shillings 3/4d.
Hell can you imagine going almost 50 miles for less than 21p (that's return of course 97.5 miles)

Given the number of raised eyebrows I get over my WOS-OXF then OXF-PAD seasons - I guess most think I am cheating the system

And here we are, how many years later, with the same problems.  In the Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/rail-fares-reform-train-tickets-b1894707.html), Simon Calder writes


Not just five years, Simon - thirteen years!

On Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/seatsixtyone/posts/10159348520843498), the man in seat 61 posts in promoting the article "I think I was pretty restrained here!" ...public comments are ripe with examples that should be looked at.

I don't find returns being 10p more than singles a particular problem. In fact I find they give flexibility. For instance, I've frequently bought a return from Bristol to Bath, got off at Keynesham, walked in along the Cotswold Way, then train back. Works out cheaper than two singles. Or visiting an aunt in Freshford, train to Bath, walk through the Two Tunnels, train all the way back, again a return works out cheaper than two singles. Same when on one occasion I went to visit some friends staying in a village about five miles outside Gloucester. I put my bike on the train, rode from Gloucester to them, then decided to ride all the way back. The 10p difference means I don't feel I've wasted my money on an unused return half, nor have I ended up having to buy another ticket because I only bought a single then changed my mind. So in many ways, having a £10 single and a £10.10 return is a better deal than having, say, a £7.50 single and a £15 return.

I feel exactly the same. The current system gives me flexibility, is that because I am also a cyclist. Advance tickets don't work, because I don't cycle to a timetable and don't normally know when I am coming back, and sometimes (as above) where from.

The system is a maze/mess, but there might be a minority of us who are worse off after a "root and branch" review.

The worry of the "powers that be" is that about half of us would be worse off after a review, and half better off.  Those who are better off will say "thank you" and forget about it a few days later ; those of us worse off will remember at the next election and vote out those *******s who put our travel costs up.

On the 10p (or £1 on long distance journeys) difference ... I have had it explained to me that it helps revenue protection / reduces losses. The explanation goes that it's essentially the same ticket / fare / price, and for people trying to make two journeys without paying it gives you two chances of catching them ... and if you DO catch them, you only sell them a single ticket which in effect is a penalty fare if you catch them outbound.

One of the main complaints of Seat61 against the 10p extra off-peak returns is that triangular journeys of
A->B->C->A come out as relatively expensive as they need three singles but I'm not sure how many people regularly make triangular journeys.

There is merit from a simplicity point of view to make all tickets singles, with possibly only two different price bands related to time etc. These could then be sold in carnets of increasing numbers and validity duration on smart cards that could potentially replace the concept of season tickets. Maybe a step too far though  ;D

It depends whether you see the single as being only 10p less than the return or the return as being only 10p more than the single. I think there's an assumption in some quarters that for the £10 single and £10.10 return, the "real price" of the single is about £5. It strikes me as very unlikely that any realignment of single and return prices would happen in that way.

Over here in Brittany we have a system on the local/regional trains of single fares at the following rates:

From 0 to 29 km: € 5 one way
From 30 to 69 km: € 10 one way
From 70 to 149 km: € 18 one way
Over 150 km: € 28 one way

Trains are shown in the timetable as either white or green depending on how busy they are expected to be. If you used your single ticket to travel outbound, then you can use that same ticket to return on a green train at no extra cost within 7 days.

For those under 12, their tickets will be free regardless of the route if they are accompanying a paying traveler. This free rate is valid for up to 4 children per paying traveler. If the child is traveling alone, they will pay half the adult fare.

During school holidays, the above single rates are halved on Tuesday-Thursday.

First Saturday of the month, all singles cost € 5.

Carnets of 10 tickets are available at the following rates, with one free trip granted per book:

From 0 to 29 km: € 45
From 30 to 69 km: € 90
From 70 to 149 km: € 162
More than 150 km: € 252

Rail passes are available, valid for unlimited travel for up to 5 people per pass. € 55 for 2 days, or € 110 for 7 days.

Various reductions are available for the usual societal groups you would expect.

On the interurban buses that operate within a single department (equivalent of UK county), a flat fare of € 2.50 is charged, with a carnet of 10 journeys available for € 20.

Those interurban buses that cross departmental boundaries are charged at € 2.50 for journeys under 30 km, € 5 for under 70 km, € 7.50 for under 110 km, and € 10 for over 110 km, with 10 journey carnets available at € 20, € 40, € 60 and € 80 respectively.

Once again, various reductions are available for the usual societal groups you would expect.

Duplication/Competition between bus and train services is kept to a minimum, and integration between the two maximised where possible as part of an overall network approach.

A number of towns/cities have their own municipal bus operator networks. All those that are rail-served will have a PlusBus style ticket  available, and a single unit ticket valid on all buses and train services within the municipal boundary, as well as Metro (Rennes) and Tram (Brest) services.

That's pretty simple and seems quite a bargain.

For any who might think all the complexity is a 'privatisation' phenomenon, this Thames Television programme (https://youtu.be/F7pR3v7puwQ?t=310) from 1976 goes through many of the tickets available then between Euston and Glasgow, with some byzantine restrictions the most complex of which is the 'Economy Return' which has to be booked 21 days in advance, travel only allowed on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday and the return can't be the same week as the outward.

The attitude of the BR Chief Passenger Marketing Manager is very illuminating too.

Indeed, though I suspect that the modern railway has introduced EVEN MORE complications than did BR.

And considering the particular example given above, I can see the logic of lower fares on less busy days, but why on earth should London to Glasgow be cheaper if booked 21 days in advance, than if on the day of travel ?

I used to use those Economy Returns a lot as they were good value for a cash-strapped teenager, particularly as I just caught the wilderness time when you became an adult for rail fares at 14, and the Student Railcard as it was then didn't apply to schoolchildren.

My understanding was that the various restrictions were an attempt to exclude people who were likely to travel anyway (standard Sat-Sat holidaymakers, short business trips, days out etc) and tempt niche travellers who might otherwise perhaps use a coach or drive.  The 21 days requirement also I think allowed BR to keep a bit of an eye on bookings and sometimes lengthen trains they thought might be particularly busy. It was a different world!

FGW (as it was then) managed to change many of its fares so that a return was roughly twice the single fare without too much trouble.  So why not change the rest?

Yes - and indeed congratulations to them for making that change across our area.   IMHO a change that had been overdue and moved it to a system that's about right on the flows were it was done, but there were winners and losers.   

As I recall it was done without causing a huge hike in fares, on the basis that most people bought returns anyway, so the headline was (or would have been) "single fares drop". But such good news typically does not stick in the headlines or memory or (as was intended, properly) did not result in huge reductions for many people so - like good news - soon forgot!

"So why not change the rest" ... because the bean counters see fares going down (all be that the ones that not many people buy), nothing really going up, and it goes against their instinct and ruling that the overall income must  remain unaltered.

The change was a brave one by FGW and it has in some cases lead to an extra complexity in buying tickets for the knowledgeable .  No longer get a peak return from Melksham (sorry, but I have an example already worked out) to London because you're going up in the peak and get the £1 fare back, but buy a single up and then a single back if your return is off peak.   Showing 2020 figures, but our table at http://www.mtug.org.uk/londonfares.html shows when to buy a return and when to buy singles.   And this is only 2/3 as complex as elsewhere as we go straight from anytime to super-off-peak into London - not a singe train at off-peak fares as there's a gap from 07:53 to 10:02

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/9faregroups.jpg)

Edit - quite a lot added. Apologies to member(s) who liked original but are less sure of the extras!  ;D