Great Western Coffee Shop

Good morning :)

I have just visited the FGW website and apparently a train has derailed at Penzance sidings. From the FGW website:-

06:50 Penzance to London Paddington due 12:23
This train has been cancelled. This is due to a derailed train.
Owing to a derailment in the sidings at Penzance we are unable to operate this service.

10:59 Penzance to London Paddington due 16:23
This train will be started from Plymouth.

It will no longer call at: Penzance, St Erth, Hayle, Camborne, Redruth, Truro, St Austell, Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard.

This is due to a derailed train.
Owing to a derailment in the sidings at Penzance we are unable to operate this service between Penzance and Plymouth.


It looks like this is going to disrupt some services badly out of Penzance this morning as this may disrupt trains coming out of the depot.

Hmm.....d^ vu.

I wonder if 153318 has done the splits again?

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=6128.msg59991#msg59991

Yes - I had that thought too, and wondered if I should merge the topics for clarity.   But then the moderator team has been doing a lot of topic merging recently ... on one hand, we want to encourage clarity by grouping discussions on a single subject, but on the other hand we don't want to keep coming in and moving things around that members have chosen to place as they do for a reason.

So - just a plea.  If original posters can have a quick look around and if there's a recent thread already running on the subject (as there is in this case - the other thread bignosemac pointed us to was followed up on earlier this month, 7 threads below on the very same board), please continue that thread unless there's a really good reason to start afresh. Thanks!

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Is there something about the yard at Penzance that makes it prone to this?

Presumably related - with the 125 that would have run to Newquay and back being used for the service that running not from Penzance but from Plymouth.

Will 2 cars be enough to take all the "Summer Saturday Special" crowds?  I'm suspecting that, regrettably, they will based on previous comments on similar matters; long since gone are the days of a procession of services up and down to the West Country on Summer Saturdays, using stock that was otherwise underemployed.

We have not really reached the peak time on this route so a 2 car should be sufficient today.  Ask the same question in a months time and tha answer would be very different

Isn't this the second or third derailment at Penzance?

Time for the track gang, if there is one, to get packing and lining.

Agreed, but it won't be a Network Rail one as the depot track is the responsibility of the TOC.

Also I think there are 3 or 4 "specials" running to Penzance today to add to existing problems.

Yep King is supposed to be going right through to Par, now they are cleared over the Royal Albert brirge, with Western onto Penzance,

6024 King Edward I today from Paddington to Exeter where 5029 Nunney Castle is attached for the run to Par then D1015 Western Champion to Penzance. The return train on Monday should be hauled  by 5029 and 6024 throughout
 

So in the crazy world of today's railway TOCs have to employ track workers (or contract it out) in their depots.

Why isn't it a Networkrail responsibilty it's important infrastructure after all?

I so wish they'd redouble the main line back into Penzance.

Sorry but why? what difference would it make and where would it be laid ?

Just seen some photo's, it was a HST in the same place as 153318 and the same problem.

Ask the Tory party.............. :P .........................and no, I don't want to start a political argument here.

Sounds then if FGW need to do a rethink on the type of handpoint mechanisim they have.  Most new depots of the size of Long Rock would probably have a full depot control system with powered points.  But lets wait and see........

If and I mean IF the derailment was in the same place (as it looks) the guilty pointwork (double slip) has just been re laid and fitted with locking point handles (ala EWS/DBS) so they didn't have to clip them for every movement ::)

Nunny Castle was temporarily taken off at Taunton due to problems caused by poor quality coal and D1015 Western Champion was attached to the "King" as insurance to make sure it made it over Whiteball  to Exeter where the Western was detached.Eventually the train left Exeter later than planned (about 5pm ish) with the King and the Castle while the Western ran ahead light engine to Par ready to take over the final leg to Penzance. 

As quite rightly pointed out already - it was the rear two coaches and rear powercar that went different ways on the depot. Unfortunately it was in the PRECISE location on the depot to prevent the only other HST on the depot from leaving.

It means the depot is completely closed until the breakdown crane arrives from Margam (S. Wales), sometime tonight.

The last coach travelled over two different tracks subsequently squashing a location cabinet on the depot. The Cabinet is somewhat critical to the operation of the depot infrastructure!

Restricted working is expected to be ongoing until Wednesday.

On a different note - the Newquay Class 150 (150279 to be precise) was a result of the HST Train Manager calling in sick and no suitable replacement with the required Traction and Route Knowledge.

Just seen some photos. Ooops!

are the photos available to see, or is it internal only?

Entering from the Penzance end from the pictures I have seen the fuel road and No 4 running road available,
all they have to do is remove the Penzance end vehicles as far back as the derailed ones and that would give them the shed road back.


critical for emptying Voyager toilets that is !

Oops!

Does indeed look like the location of the double-slip points where 153318 came a cropper earlier in the year.

Explain to the non kagool wearers

I have recent;y been to penzance - as you know - the platforms look harmless

How does something - a 153 let alone an HST - derail there

Seriously - laymans terms please

De railments not in Penzance station but the maintenance depot near by FallenAngel.
Easier for things like that to happen on track that is not up to the same standards as the main line, also there is no intrlocking of the points as there is with ones controlled from signalboxes.

The crane is kept at Bescot there is only a Bruff at Margam

Looking at the mounts bay webcam it looks like hsts are being stored at Penzance station overnight. Usually its just DMUs. It looks like all platforms are being used.

FA....

The derailment appears to have taken place on a set of 'double slip' points which look something like this:

(http://www.gosfordhobbies.com.au/shop/images/P/LGE-369.JPG)

Most obvious cause is point blades moving (for whatever reason) whilst a train passes over, sending one part of a train onto the wrong track. As can be seen in jester's pic the rear bogie of Coach H of the HST set has headed off on the wrong track along with the rear power car.

The location was Penzance Traction Maintenance Depot, also known as Long Rock TMD about 1 mile up the line from Penzance station. A Google earth view shows the location of the 'double slip' points - above and to the left of the Wikipedia logo. If something goes wrong on this set of points you can see that it has the potential to block any other trains from exiting the sidings to the right.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/pnzlngrk.jpg)

EDIT: Turns out it was a coach G, not H

More photos here: http://southwestrailphots.fotopic.net/c1343521.html (http://southwestrailphots.fotopic.net/c1343521.html)

Would say its highly unlikely the rail crane will turn up. More likely a road crane as its easily accessible...

I was amazed in France recently to see just how many double slip points they have on their system - and on main lines too.  The pictures here are outside Paris Gare de L'est and Le Havre; not good ones, but ones that I just happened to catch in with other things I was snapping.  But in the UK, we seem to have a fear of them - preferring two simple points where space allows.  I won't deny that going round the corner over them can be a jolting experience. I used to make a daily commute over one outside Blackfriars on what was then the Southern Region, but I don't recall the train every doing "the splits". Perhaps they are now so rare in the UK that the specialists who know how to keep them running reliably are all retired?

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/doubleslip.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/doubleslip2.jpg)

Thanks for the feedbacks on the Newquay - very interesting.  I made the wrong guess on "why", didn't I!.   I was also fearful of posting my question "will 2 coaches be enough" as I feared my answer would show EITHER a problem of overcrowding OR a service that's underused.   I love the answer "OK at the moment before the peak season, but would have been a problem in a few weeks" - it shows (why should I have doubted it?) a well specified service and a sensible solution to an immediate problem!

Set is now back on the tracks, was achieved by just using jacks and slewing.....

No wonder! If they're using PECO OO-gauge double slips in Long Rock I'm surprised it took this long before an HST split them  ;D

Coat.

Bear in mind, Network Rail have just had ^100m removed from their budget ...  ;D

The continent in general  use a lot more doubel slips than we do especialy in station limits.

When they were 4 tracking East of Dresden. At this time they were working the whole service in both directions over a single double slip at one of the local Dresden S bahn stations, where the four tracking was changing sides.  I've a piece of Video with a Prague Hamburg EC crossing to the old S Bahn lines from the new through lines over a double slip.

The interesting thing was that as the Resturant Car swung passed the end of the rail level  platform there was loud clonk as the Box under the coach clipped the corner. As far as know the train continued to Hamburg!

Having said this there is one double slip in the UK in FGW territory but not fortunately Networkrail, but it can affect the GMWL, over which the whole service in both directions is worked  for 20 hours a day. This is in Heathrow airport and forms the junction with the old termianl 4 branch and the new terminal 5 line. Although on BAA territory it under /Slough IECC control.

Isnt the track within the depot confines FGW's responsibilty and nothing to do with NR???

I think Chris was making a joke, but as noted by SandTengineer above, yes the track in the depot is the responsibility of FGW.

As per the FGW proposal in the 2007 route plan, it would improve , capacity and performance, also give greater flexibility and possibly allow more Pz-St Ives through services.   

I still cannot see where it would improve capacity/performance as for most of the day there is roughly only one train each way it might help a little during the morning peak but there are only a couple of trains that have to wait for a departing one to clear.

In order to maintain the half hourly service on the St Ives they would need an extra one or two trains should they be extended to Penzance (something FGW sadly lack) even with the additional ones that are supposed to be arriving at some point.

Money would be far better spent on addtional signalling between St Erth and Camborne that would greatley improve capacity/performance.

That's how it is I believe.

I KNOW that the Downside yard maintenance at Lostwithiel IS DONE by EWS, Sorry the German Government.

Voyager toilets are only emptied at Central Rivers up Burton way.

Hmm.

Just to clarify: my quizzical comment about Network Rail having a reduction of ^100 million on their budget was indeed a joke - hence the  ;D

I was merely following up inspector_blakey's amusing observation about the implied use of OO gauge points in Long Rock ...  ::)

Theres definately NO maintenance done in the downside yard at Lostwithiel currently, have you seen the state of it!!?!!

OK critical for emptying Sleepers then :-)

Errant Power car and 2 remaining First class coaches, should be leaving Long Rock by road today 01/07/10

Rest of train was taken to Laira by the (i believe) Sleeper loco using a Barrier vehicle for coupling purposes.

Normal working now resumed at Long Rock with the offending points being clipped for each movement.

Much damage done? Not a good time for FGW to be losing any rolling stock with the peak summer season almost upon us.

Not much visible damage apart from a few dents and scratches here and there, suspect its more wheelset/bogie damage preventing movement by rail.

Power car loaded onto a lorry early hours of Friday morning for a breakfast time departure to Laira via the A30 to Exeter and the A38 back to Plymouth (30 mph 6 hrs)

Coaches departing after loading Friday morning.

is this because too big to go along the a38. Must be at least an extra 70 miles to go all way up to Exeter and back!

Far too heavy for crossing the Tamar for one thing  ;)

and if it went by rail on some kind of rail flat bed you would end up with an open top hst !

how has this affected services being a unit down?

Not a great problem there are 49 sets available where 50 are needed which is nothing new, FGW seem to manage like this most days.

They are only actually 1 power car and 2 First class coaches short on that set, so 2 spare coaches from whichever depot and a spare power car from wherever and job done one complete set again

I believe there are no spare power cars left at the moment all available ones in use.

caughs cross country :-)

A quick trawl round FGW maintenace depots reveals.
Spare power cars ..... Nil
4 HST coaching sets under maintenance.
Class 57...... 3 available
For once the West Sprinter fleet has had 2 spare sets available for service.

I have been told by Long Rock that the CET equipment is used when requested by X Country to empty Voyager tanks

CET equipment?

CET = Controlled Emission Toilet

Ah, thanks for that II.  :)

So that eye-watering whiff you get on Voyagers is emitted under some sort of control then is it?  :P ;D